The Occult Rejects with David Rankine

brother in the Gray Lodge. But if you're interested in check me out on Threshold Saints and IG and twitter x at Threshold Saints or my personal account at Wukong Reborn and also the our Gray Lodge website which obviously mattmur is our webmaster, so the True Gray Lodge dot com t r ve gray Lodge dot com and we do speculative Cabbala, speculative to calichakra, and speculative narcissism every Friday night live recorded for YouTube.

The handles right here at Madmore nineteen. So pretty excited for today.

I didn't memorize already in his books. For people who have been listening to the show for a while for the last few years, you probably have heard me mention him plenty of times whenever I've referred to planetary or elemental stuff. I've even like pulled up some of his pages to show like the associations, to show where I got it from. This is the man. So for me, it's amazing to actually have this guy on the show.

I never would have thought, I guess maybe ten fifteen years ago when I was getting into this, i'd actually be talking to the man that wrote the book. So David, thank you so much for coming on. This is like mind blowing for me. Please, whatever I didn't mention that, maybe you want to plug, please let everybody know what your deal is.

And doing that and getting the panoramic perspective that it gave kind of shaped what's come since, and I wanted to more patful manual stuff up just Clovers and Telgentiaram and the new one the follow on to that, which has just come out of clave As Spiritum, which is keeping true to the fidelity of the Greenmart tradition but evolving it into the twenty first century and restoring bits that I've got lost or leaving our bits that don't necessarily need to be there, and trying to make it

a lot more accessible for people. And that's kind of been where my focus has been in recent years.

Quite horrified me. This is decades ago. Now, I would stress I'm not making that claim towards any modern authors, but at the time, I thought, if I write, I want to make sure I'm writing about things that I've done, I would hope. So I think that, Well, the feedback I get from people is they like my stuff because

it's very accessible and down to earth. But I mean it's well, I'm very academic in the point of view of well not academia, but I heavily put note and reference my stuff so people can see where the materials coming from, they can track things back. But I like to also put things in as simpler form as possible, because I have this little philosophy that magic isn't complex,

it's layers for simplicity, the build upon each other. And you know, when as soon as you start trying to box stuff and tell people that things are complex, so when you start putting barriers in front of people, and so if you view it as layers of simplicity the build on each other, it's a much more practical way to approach. And that's kind of reflected in my writings that it's that's you know, as you read through, it's like you can see, oh, this builds on this, this

builds on this. So what I get told by Pep is they like that they don't feel that I'm talking down to them, but they feel like they was having a conversation with me in the books because it's just

in a nice, simple style. You know, I'm not trying to use lots of big words to impress, and anything that I think might be clarifying, there'll usually be a footnote or anywhere I'm referring to text as usually a footnote, so that people, like I say, can see where the thought process was followed themselves as decide if they agree or disagree with the conclusions. You know, I don't claim that my stuff is the only way or the best way.

It's like the way that has worked for me, and if other people feedback to me set it works them as well, then that's fantastic because the reason for me putting the stuff out there is to offer people stuff that I have found, you know, test it and works, and that hopefully will work for them as well. A really good example is, you know the stuff I've been doing recently with the winds, which is in Clave Spiritum

for spirit conduration. When I got prompted by my spirits to look into the winds and then I'm usually went started looking at texts and went to Swarm book for Norrisks in their contacted Stephen Skinner except he was doing the work on the first book of sum Sycomatic at the time and said, Stephen, can you send me all this stuff on the winds? And he sent that over and found the conjuration in there. I did it as part of a conjuration of one of the planet for intelligences,

and it was there like that, you know. I was like, well, okay, that worked really well. I had a lot of questions based on what I was doing in my practice time, and I asked about the winds and the intelligence. It was Joffield, the Jupiterian intelligence. He was like, yeah, it's great, used this, but just add this one line in here.

So I did a line in. I then started contacting magicians I knew who do conjuration work, saying he did in conjuration in the next few months and if they were going fancy in this winds conduration for me and

trying it and lots of people. So a couple of dozen people then did the practice and they added it in and it was you know, people working with all different grimoires with like the Oscar sugar or environmentally of Solomon, lots of different ones with demons, angels, Olympic spirits, clanty intelligences. Every single person said the spirit was there by the

end of first conjuration at the latest. And then I was getting I get this was after Club as Intelligent Entoirement had come out, So getting a lot of people messing me about that, and people saying, I'm going to do my first conjuration and I'm really nervous, and have you got any advice? Okay, well why didn't you put this wind conjuration in as well? And the people who had never done a conjuration before who added the wind conjuration and was successful and it was there by the

end of first conjuration. Again, so I extended my data sets. I wasn't just experienced musicians, but people doing first conjurations, and so far every single person we're up at least thirty conjuration sell has had the spirit there by the end of first conduration. So that thing which was there at the beginning of the Grimwa tradition and then disappeared, I have restored, and I think it's like a key component to bring back in because the winds are kind

of like the uber for the spirits. You're sending a new before it and it gets the really fast, so you don't spend hours having to repeat conjurations. So it's a bit of a game changer. So I've written all about that in Plava Spiritum. I kind of dropped the hint on it with the blog I did on it some months earlier about the return of the winds. That's been like a really big thing for me in recent times, has been like propagating up there, the use of the winds.

I think I had a bit tangential for there, didn't.

fire offering. So I would say it's an essential part and it's probably a sort of parallel stream of thinking in my view.

So it's interesting that it's something that's spread around in different traditions, you know, around the world, and that use of the winds, saying it's a bit more of a universal association of winds and spirits, and you see it in things like the Greek magical propriory as well. And you know, I talk about some of the references I found, you know, in Clarb spirit and there's even a couple of references to the winds in the Qur'an. We're associated

with the gin. So yeah, I think this was and there's a lot of Arabic stuff on the winds, you know. It's it's funny how it just sort of drops out, really the conservation of the winds after the Swarm Book of Nooris, so the later grim was you might get mentioned of the nastical winds, but there's no using the winds for conjuration. And by the time you get to the more demon focused period the grim Walls from like sixteen seventeenth centralwards and less angelic, you actually get it.

Some of them saying oh, it's going to take you hours, You're going to have to repeat it five seven, nine times. That's not there in the early stuff like Sumasacramagic and form book. Just assume that they're going to turn up first time because you've sent the winds for them.

Sometimes stuff that gets left out is better to keep in, and so if an essential component like that gets lost, I think it's really important that it gets restored, which is what I've did with Clava Spiritum and have been encouraging everyone in my I've been was distributing it so much beforehand and encouraging people before the book got up, because I really wanted other people to be doing it, you know, like saying the fact that so many people

did it and got results it was like vindication for that. It's an effective practice and it should be there.

You alsously get a lot more. I've actually kind of started doing a book on the winds, but it's on the back burner because I'm writing two books at the moment that the ones I've been pushed to write, and then after those are done, I might get back to the book on the winds I started, because you go for this whole cycle, you know, because you go for antiquity where you've got four winds, and then it's becomes six, and becomes eight and even goes up to twenty four,

you know, and get all the sub subquents, so you get like the winds of the south southeast and all these, but you know, initially is three, then it's quite quickly four, you know, as Mats dis mentioned like Eurus Borius. Notice zephyrs also e as well comes in very heavily. The goddess of the dawn is the mother of the winds. And it's interesting that one of the grimwalkins the munich

Hambook of Necromancy sort of fifteenth century. There's a spelling therefore a throne that transports the musician and the angels that do it. They're all nearly all of their names are wind names with al on the end, so you get like boreal and zephyrral, and there's clearly just they're just borrowing the winds and sticking out on the end and saying, oh, it's an angel, when really they're wind It's like that thing that happens a lot with the

grim Walls, where existing spirits are just repurposed. And I mean we can get together with the gods as well. You know, it's like a different gateway or different access to gods of the ancient world. They might not have been worshiped, but then they become present in the form of a saint or you know, a spirit that's called up.

I mean, my favorite one of those is because you know, Nebbis is my pay from God, and you get him turning up as Saint Christophers and Christopher the Sin of Cephalis and Christopher the dog Headed, which is literally a dog headed saint who's doing the job of psychopomp which as a newist, it's like, okay, the Egypians aren't worshiping him anymore. Find another way that these dudes can feed me.

it doesn't come, there's no luber like. Maybe the guy comes, but it's coming like food is gonna take ages for that.

a very prolific reader as a kid. They sort of like read a book a day on our bridge every day. And when I was ten, I went my way through carl UM's collective works, which kind of had a big influence on making me think about the supper RUMs and what goes on in the mind and the psyche. And I also read the Dowad e Ying and that became my paper book of all time, like Daoism, and that's

been a really big influence through my life. But as the defining moment really was when I was fourteen, because I had a bit of an incident at the school. I went to this boys grammar school and somebody tried to stab meet with a knife and I took the knife off them and it ended up in his leg, and the school wasn't very happy, and so they said just spoke to see like these counselors. And the counselor said to me, there's nothing wrong with you. You were

just not really directing your energy very effectively. You need to think about, you know, what you're doing with your time. And that really got me thinking. And I walked out of there and bumped into a friend who said, hey, I was just like, given this maybe I thought you

might be interested. And you handed me a catalog from a cant supplier that used to be around called dot Altique that was one of the big suppliers in England back in the seventies eighties when there wasn't very much around, and it was like the book catalog and I looked at it and you know, I thought, yeah, I'm going to get some of these books. And I think something

was obviously guiding my hand there. So I made an order when I ordered six books and those six books were Crowley's Magic Techniques of High Magic by Stephen It's going to influence his king, and of Ivice found some gentle magic, the Key of Solomon, the grimarv Armadale, and the Saca Magic Babel in the Match. So I got those and I read them and I was like, okay, techniquely high magic was the one my fourteen year old brain could relate to the most. So I just started

working through doing all the practices in there. You know, it's two hours every day doing Pentagon ritual, hexcom ritual, middle Pillar, rose cross, ugilization, meditation, et cetera. Took the OAF in there, dedicating my life to magic, which when I met Stephen like decades later and we became my best friends, I was like, yeah, thanks for that, Stephen.

And so that was the moment. Really, So I suppose when somebody just handed me that catalog of just the right moment and I looked for them and I'm going to get these books, and then I just started the practices and it went from there.

is Rae Regardo doing it. So you can improve how you buy about your Hebrew and stuff because it had been set up under ther Sason Regardis and they knew and so I then you know that from there. I love the Pentagram ritual. I've done loads of workshops on

it with people. I've amended it based on it was changed a little bit in the way it was done in the group because Regarde had some thoughts on ways it could be improved, and so we took those on board and made some slight differences to the way it's done.

And I've actually recently in the last couple of years changed it up a little bit again in that I now instead of being before me, Raphael, before me Michal, because you're facing east and east direction of fire, and then so on my right hand Raphael, so then you have the Michael Gabriel access front and back, and then

Raphael oriole right and left. And I just like I prefer that because you know, for many years I've been working with the fire east south that Levi switched and modern magic just took on board wholesale, which kind of destroys the whole thing of elemental theory of like the associations of the you know, the hot, cold, wet, dry axis and the qualities of the elements being shared with the ones on either side, right, and so yeah, I just made some changes and work it in my slightly

varied well I'm actually thinking of doing a blog post on that actually just throw it out there see if other people want to play with that, which I didn't really like as much because it's a good example of what you're seeing. Quite a lot of the older stuff what i'd call like a hollow ritual, like it's formed without force, that there isn't any visualization or anything given for the x Greme ritual. You have to let make it your own visualizations for it, whereas the Bengam ritual

is the whole, complete, little system in itself. And I love the Pentagram ritual. You know, you're combining voice work with movement and body work and visualization. It's like it's a really good package for practicing and honing your skills as a daily practice. But some of the things, like the hex Creme riture just they're a bit hollow. They don't have all that in them.

like the Pentagram ritual. However, I if I do the Pentagon ritual, what I do now is adding before and you know the thing I created the license to remain because you know, I have my own spiritual court of spirits around me and I don't want to be insulting them by you know, if you do that from the Pengram victory, you basically push everything out of the area so it's completely neutralized in neutral space, So you know, giving the permission to the spirits around you or any

house spirits or genius Loki through outdoors to remain while you do it, so that you're not consulting, you know, any of those spirits when you do the Pentagram ritual.

practical Planetary magic. Jumping back to one of the things that you said earlier wanted to you know, talk about those books, and that was the hexper ritual was the inspiration for me to make a heptogram because I thought, well, heptagram's seven for the planets, and let's bring in the Greek vowels because there's seven vowels, and that's something that where we can give put all of those things that are missing from the expritual into a planetary ritual that

just has a bit more completion to it.

and that's traditional place entering the circle. And I know from chatting with like Steven Skinner that in Chinese magic as well, they have the thing of like northeast is

where the magician comes in for Chinese sorcery. And so that on those things that you can find in several systems, you've got the seven and then the sort of the empty, so there's an itbum for empty, but then you close it obviously, and then so that's why I'm saying, it kind of makes sense planet Earth to be there because you're sealing it off and then moving transforming the space. So it's kind of rased separate from the mundane, so an optagram would have a logical place as we say, yeah, it.

the also the nine. So we have Rahu and Kattu, which although are shadow planets and they are assigned to the north and south note of the Moon, they actually are planets in and of themselves. And I posit that you can actually map Rahu to Uranus and Kattu to Neptune, you know, if you want to use a contemporary system.

because they are so different from us. But again, if we say angels and demons, by and large, they are mostly airy, sometimes fiery beings in the point of view of where their elements are. That's why I'm One of the reasons I really like the Olympic Spirits is because it specifically talks about that there are the Olympic Spirits about balance or for elements in them, that they contain air of fire and water, and that balance in them might be one of the reasons why they are so

friendly and easy to work with. Why I always recommend the Olympic Spirits or the plant for intelligence is to people starting conjuration. They're the ones that you like to get be the politest and friendliest and easiest to work with, and you get really good results with them. As well. People want to jump in and be or dark and scared.

Let's do this demonic stuff, but way better to get your house in order and do the other stuff with the spirits that have more balance to them, And then you'll also finalize you'll probably find that you don't need to work with the other ones. So if you can get everything you need from working with a couple of Olympic spirits, why go off and then start working with loads of other ones. I don't understand the logic of that, you know, I don't come to tons of different spiritual ease.

I've got a few that I work with, but they do a thing I need. If I need something that, why would I then go off and start calling up of ones? And I don't need to create new bonds and obligations if I've already got ones that can do it. And you see that in some of the said something

like Commander, you know, like Ureessua or Pompageira. You know, if they can't do the task, they'll just contact out to another one and then they'll tell you what you're going to have to offer, and you okay, so you're gonna have to use this Pontereau and do these offerings and possibly this offering and sing these songs, et cetera,

and they'll just subcontract out. And there's that in the Grim Walls as well as an extent when you have some of the intermediate spirits like Skurling and the care environment, also the demon bishops. I've found from my own experience where they are things, Okay, you want this job done, this is this is the best person for the job. This is the one you need to work to call on. So yeah, I think it's really a case of getting the right one for the job, but not overplaying it.

Not they're not Pokemon cards. You don't need to collect the more, you don't need to do all. I've got our story shrining. It's now undred all seventy two. That's really not a good idea. If you start looking at the description one of them, it basically tells you that the main it's not really going to be helpful, but it's going to try and make sure you get killed. Why would you want to call that one up for example? You know what I mean. It's it's perhaps that thing

of keep it simple. My layers of simplicity, don't don't create unnecessary relationships. If you've got a small group of things that work really well for you, that's that's my that's the way I do it and suggest to other people. Nice thanks.

occasionally with other people. So it's changed. The point of view of my magic is really focused on more solitary practice and as a result, you know, having to have everything sorted for yourself is it's such a different dynamic to when you're working with other people. I like group stuff, but it's just not been practical. Excuse me of say, being in the right location or having the right people available to do things with at the times you want to do stuff. So yeah, my practices have changed a

huge amount. And you know I did do the conjuration in the past with groups I ran as well at times, like for example, back in the nineties and noughties, you know Alexandri and covens that Iran I would focus on. I mean, the thing with Wicker is that it's you know, the Book of Shadows is like a skeleton. You know, You've got a flesh and put the muscles and the

sinews and the flesh on it. And so any group that I was high priest of with the blessing of the High process obviously, but all the covens that i've co co run has been with wives, so that's not been a problem that there would be a lot of ritual magic training thrown in there. So people, if they're in a couple with me, they're going to get a

lot of ritual magic training. And I also wanted them to experience conjuration, so I would do conjuration of Olympic spirits with the coven so they could experience it for themselves, which was great because many could do it in an

experimental way. So for example, rather than just having one squire, having three squires who could and would see if they all got the same answers to the questions that were asked to the Olympic Spirit, or if they got different answers, because that would you know, there are bemifications on that and by lize getting the same hearing the same answer

from the spirit. So that was an interesting thing. But for them to sort of understand that wicker has its place and for some people it's the right thing, but there's other things as well, And so I wanted people to see some of the other options that they could do. And I mean, I know a lot of Wickens. It's not the only practice. They might have other things they do as well. I know some old school Wickans who

are really into bring more stuff, for example. It's just not getting into that box or I do and I can't do anything else, you know. I once offended an old school with and somebody actually who was in Garden's original coven. We were having a conversation and who I've been doing worker for forty years, and I said, oh, what do you do? So you know we do this sabot see you in the thirteen psmas. What about daily practice? Well,

I've never done a daily practice in my life. And I was like, what, so that's the only mantic you do? So and basically, you know, the high prices and piece.

Because it was Gardner's original Covenant, they did all pretty much all the work anyway, so the people just learnt by watching and they didn't didn't get stuck, explained and I was like, wow, okay, And then I said Tom, I said, well, you know, this might sound rude, but I would rather work for someone who's done a year's daily practice than someone who's had forty years of occasional rituals, because they have put in the discipline, persistence and will

have got more from that. And then I said the bit that I was young at the time, so it was a bit of a an asshole move. Then I said to him, you know, forty years of shit is still ship, which looking back, I now I think that was a bit that was just like the arrogance of youth, And that was not a really very nice thing to say, even if you can think of just an element of truth in it, it was still a pretty roofing say. But I was, you know, I was in the early

twenties at the time, and at that age. You know, back in those days in the eighties, it was like it was a very different scene to the world now.

have an effective intent to expell et cetera. So people just want to jump in and start, you know, in the deep end and drown they can. But for me, the daily practice thing is absolutely essential.

I was doing a lot, quite a lot of devotional work at the time, and I go through I've gone through phases in my life where if I'm not doing a lot of active stuff, then I'll just be doing, like you know, on a daily basis, I have to do something just be simple meditation, visualization, and possibly and then I might I want to do a devotion to a particular deity for a month or a few months or something. So I was doing a lot at the time. I was doing a lot of stuff with Hectian hermes,

so there was like devotional stuff with them. And then I had like a daily energetic practice that I created that I was doing every day that you know, I did for decades. But I've actually started doing now after my spirits said it's a great practice that it's actually blocking some of your sensitivity. And it's true that I found that I've my psychic the psychism has like kind of spiked and got a lot better since I started

the practice. So it's like great, great sort of energetic walls, as it were, but those walls were also keeping up stuff that I needed up to come in. You know, you can you can oversheeld.

back and just getting to like technique and practice. And I'm all in favor of focusing on technique and practice. I think it kind of lost its way a bit, myself personally bian But there are good people doing the stuff. And what I found interesting is a lot of people in chais magic have often been come back upon themselves being very focused into something like Norse magic and the Rooms, for example, or Tantra, or really heavily into breath work.

It's like they end up not being that chaotic, and most of the chass magicians I know actually the most ordered and structured people. So charismagic is really good because it was a bit like the punk of magic, you know, like let's let's get away, get rid of all the detritus and what we don't need and go back and just focus on what actually works for us. And that's so it really pushed that key thing of you know,

doing magic that worked. If it's not working what you're doing, you know, you need to either change it up, look at what's going wrong, or switch to something else that does work. So that was a big shift. The Internet changed things massively as well. You know, from the mid nineties on you need to get the you know, the the BBL boards and stuff where people were saying they able to start communicating and finding out because prior to that, you know, you go back to the eighties, there were

it was really hard to find people. There was the occasional conference, but certainly in the UK conferences. I was part of the first fore Linix impostment in nineteen eighty six in Oxford, and that was the first thing of its kind where we had this symposing like Fellowites came from all over Europe and a couple even came from the States for this gathering. We had like, you know,

really good speakers. That's it, you know. We had Michaelmgee, Lionel Snell, David Rietti who was in the calor Pace at the time who's passed since I can't remember who else, but it was really it was a great gathering, and suddenly there was a sense of community there, like we had like one hundred of Pelomites from all over the

place getting together and people starting to make connections. The Internet enabled people to make those connections online immediately, rather than having to try and find out about events that you'd only find out about a few subscribed to certain magazines where the events are advertised, or went into a magical bookshop that you've tracked down and they happen to have an advert up. So that proliferation has meant that people have shared a lot more and so there's been

a lot more exchange and change. There's also been, you know, since the early noughties, things growing and blooming, like the Grimwell tradition. There was very little Grimwell stuff. The odd book done prior to early two thousands. You know, then Joseph Peace and doing all his amazing stuff and his

hysteric Archives of website. You know, Stephen my found in Golden Hoard and putting out the source Wip series, and then loads of other people started doing really good stuff, and the Grimweld Edition really blossomed and folk magic has become really big. So there's been loads of changes. Another one is that there's a lot more spirit based magic

now than there was. And one thing that I'm really happy about is that back in the eighties, nineties, to a lesser except the noughties as well, even people were not really paying attention to the dead. There were people weren't doing a lot of ancestral stuff or working with Fitsteadit it's like this whole thing of the that's actually dooble, just do something at Swayne and remember the dend and the rest of the year, it's like we won't even think about them. But it's like they don't go away.

They're there the whole time, you know. It's like it's I think the ATR particularly have been influentially making people pay a lot more attention to the influence of the dead and the ancestors, and that's become a lot more present in a lot of people's workings, which is something I'm very happy about because I mean that's something that got influenced by early people like Crowley. You know Crowley's coment about spiritualism being a Internetcrophilia, and he had a

very negative adage that. And you know, Crowley is such a two age sword. Some of his materials has been great and transformational, and some of it was such a screw up, like his attitude of the AARs Garcia spirits being parts of the human psyche that he postulated and then wavered on. But so lots of people go, oh, yeah, the demons are just part of my mind. No, they're bloody not so. Yeah, there've been a huge amount of changes.

I think there's a lot more good practice available, but there's all they've been who's proliferation in bullshit, people who don't know what they talk about, basting on TikTok and other basis. So it's a case of one of the things that the last fifty years has really brought in is people really need to have their discernment filters on when they're engaging, especially online, getting run over.

So you know, you can look at things, what you can say there is a continuity of idea and practice. It's not an unbroken line all the way back to eating consumer from the Grimwals, but there is a continuity of practice, the use of the magic circle, having spirits in the directions, having guardians, various things like this. Then we look at the Arabic. Obviously, one component of the Arabic is that they preserve a lot of the Greek

matial that otherwise would have been lost. But also the Arabic you also feeding there from India and possibly China. I mean a good example of that it is the Mansions of the Moon, because you know the Mansions of the Moon people talk about in the Pickatricks and the greenwas and how it comes to the Arabs. But the Arabs got it from the Greeks who write about the Mansions of the Moon, and then the Greeks got it

from India. So that's actually an Indian idea that is fed via Greece into the Arabic and then into the

European Greenworld edition. So it's really traveled. So yeah, I look to try and track back as far as I can in history and then present what I've found, and I'm sure there's I think there's a lot more needs to be done on the Indian connection, start because obviously the fact that India did have that connection to Greece means there's probably more stuff that needs to be looked at with connections there that hasn't really been done yet. So yeah, as far as possible, smiled, so I suppose as I can.

least agent Greece. So there's a lot of that Grimore tradition that sort of carries through into philosophy through the Neoplatonics, and so a lot of that.

then goes throughout the whole of Christianity. And you also get people in the Renaissance like Giordano Bruno who were sort of doing neoplatonic stuff and bringing in the whole idea then of the image magic astromagic as astra and the sense of its image and bringing in that side of things and going off onto stuff like memory palaces, and it goes all over the place. So absolutely that is a huge in relance and the semi cross fertilization.

You know, no magical system unless it's on some island in the middle of the Pacific or something exists in operation. There's always been all this cross fertilization and syncretization that's gone on, and that going back to the earlier comments some worried about how things have changed. That's one of the things I think we've seen in recent years is there's a lot more prospertalization than syncretization between different groups, where people are recognizing the value and it's not about

appropriation it's about recognizing, hey, this works really well. I Mean, somebody asked me, how do you decide whether you're appropriating or what if you include something for non practice, And my answer to that was, I will look if there are parallels to what I see that I like anywhere in my tradition, and if there are, then I can work from those routes. If there aren't, then I'm not going to appropriate it. But you know, it's the parallels thing.

It's like with the wind says parallels. So often there are parallels because the way the human mind and spirit works, you know, we're all kind of flowing in the same general direction, so nothing is going to be unique.

in in in the conspiracy community and podcasting. Christian podcasters will be the first one they call people like me Satanists, And I think it's pretty funny if you were to actually realize how many people that I'm interested in actually shaped your idea of Christianity. It's fucking going you. They have zero clue obviously.

a way, the esoteric sort of layer camp. I'm pro that, But do you think we should respect the context of Christianity in terms of the grimwork tradition and how it arises, and that perhaps it's not super useful always to create dialectical polls against like certain you know, more outer I always say outer temple religion for outer temple people.

not the Christianity of churches and priests and congregations. It's a Christianity of there's these spirits and I can deal with them directly. You know, it doesn't need to be done in the church, in fact, preferably outdoors because all the early grimmar stuff. It's all about doing it away from people where you're not going to get caught in trouble for doing these strange rituals which the church wouldn't

prove of. So and some people struggle with the fact that there is such a Christian framework to the grimwals, and I have. I mean there's been Jack Strand Kent Geo Sophia is a good example of that. Looking at the Greek where it's with the goez and things. That is one of the big feeding factors in I mean, I don't agree that it's the only one. You know,

Jake stress, is that really heavily. I think the Jewish influence is hugely significant, because you know, back in two thousand and five in Planatory of Life, I said I think there's a Macava influence into the grimwast example, which I was really happy to discover. There's actually stuff from the Macava text and Seemer taken magic a proving my point that I was correct. You know, there was, but there are components of the grim Walls which you can

see there from earlier times. I mean, there's all the Canaanite names of God that you know, the produced now

that's in the Bible. For example, I get used and one of the things I've added in to the way I do grimware stuff, and it's in you know, Carba Smith and I was having the shakina there so that you have the balance of divine feminine divine masculine, which completely transforms the circle, the magic circle that you do con duration in because it brings the whole thing of the divine wisdom and there's a grace, sort of fluidity and beauty to the practice with it, and apart from

anything else, we all have a pregnant shaquen in us as the spark of our soul. Means that if you're working with the shakin you're actually activating the divine fragment of yourself, so you have the authority to deal with

the spirits. So that's not classically a part of the tradition, but to me, it's something that entirely makes sense, and it's something that I got pushed by my spirits to look at, and I looked and there's a lot of references in the grim walls that kind of hint at her presence without it ever being said to me, that was enough of a reason to bring the shakina into

the conjuration sequence. And I've found, you know, it works like a dream, and the spirits are really happy about it as well that I work with that, you know, the chikin has been made a part of the sequence.

the Mughal the Mughalized Indians. There's a lot of interesting scholarship about how they were actually taking contric ideas, specifically from Kashmir, and then sort of encoding them into this Moughalized Persianified Arabic that they repackage and then sold to or gave to the sort of Arab bankers who were

the supporters of their court. So I think that that scholarship is just beginning now, but I think it does answer at least respond to some of the things that you were thinking about how a lot of Indian ideas were not necessarily laundered but sort of traded along into the greater Arabic Gramar tradition.

like gnostic site. Right, You're you're looking at the world with different eyes. So we see that a lot in all of the ancient texts as well. Did you have any experience with that.

another level of experiential certainty. Give a funny example of this. Many years back in nineteen eighty seven, I was leading a ritual in Oxford. It was a public ritual and the one sort of hillside in these woods just outside of Oxford, and we had about eighty people. There is a group that was doing stuff for animal rights and there was three sort of local hippies were sitting on the hill watching us, and we did the reason. Afterwards they came up and they were like, wow, thanks for

the light show. And these guys were tripping off their brains on acid and said what these guys then described to us amazingly they were coherent of to describe, but they're like, when the surfa been drawn, they've seen this like white fire guy all around, and when the particular goddess and God have been called, the person called the god has said, seeing this cascade of energy into them, and they've seen a different color one for the guy

doing the god. And they were describing all the aura stuff that was going on just because they were in that state tripping on the acids that they were actually seeing the energetic component of the ritual because they were described exactly all the things had happened, and these were people who had no understanding experience of magic.

And so yeah, I think that thing of being able to see what's going on energetically is like a really useful thing to have there.

And even taste. I mean I've had it on more than one occasion when it's been a Martiall spirit where I've got like a metallic tongue in my mouth, like a psychic taste that that spirit has turned up. It's like, okay, I know you're in the ball, so trying to show yourself please. So yeah, not to underestimate those psychic senses and the fact they will develop through doing magic. Even if you go in thinking I'm completely psychically a brick and a zero, you will not remain at that state.

If you're doing your daily practice, you're doing thesization, meditations, actually doing rituals, they will those muscles will develop and your psychos will increase.

the other sixteen seventieths. It's the same principle. We're working with spirits and subtle energies. We know from experience that they're real. We have direct experience of them. So that is the difference, isn't it. It's like the experience, like experienceial stuff. You know it's real, you just only can get on to do. And once somebody has had an experience that confirms it for them, that's usually when they the practice tends to take on more solidity, I think for many people, and.

but it's not there. How can I say it's real? Well, you're sensing it. So there's this para like kind of digital sense that don't have, so it doesn't necessarily have to be there or even like Wi Fi, all those things like we're saying, they happen, they exist, so there's and there's no point of saying no, they don't exist, because it's there.

level of the experience. So this is all ways that ritual magic traditionally has precipitated these means, and now it's being utilized by modern technology in different ways.

to do stuff, then I will meet time. For example, I quite often make solomonic pentacles for people, and so that is going to need to be certain timings. You know, it's going to have to be on the waxing moon. It's going to do an appropriate day and how so I've got to tell him that accordingly, and then likewise the consecration times. I'm not doing so much conservation since she was born because I don't have the time to do a seven day purification prep or working with a

new spirit. So the stuff I've done has just been with spirits I have familiarity with having worked before, but I can get away with three days of purification or with spirits I have packed with wore I don't need to do any and I can just ask them because I've been pacted with them for a very long time. And that's kind of where my practice is at. I mean, in the past when I started there turs a day every day for the first seven years, and then it

became just trying different things out like I did. For example, I was working through Crowding's Magic, so I did leave a rashevelle helos for three months as a daily practice where you do the ha durations of the sun at the four quarters of the day, and actually doing the librastarty from that as a moment practice has what really got me into doing devotional stuff, and over the year has been a lot of I mean to do three months Shiva or you know, three months for Goddess mart

what have you. I did quite a lot of work with Indian particularly Karli and Shiva, and my first wife was half Indian and very into those sort of those derties, so I ended up doing a lot of things with her. And back then daily yoga was part of my practice, for example, like half half an hour or so a day of daily. Over these days, I do tai chi, so I kind of see that as daily practice as well, because that's energetic work, and you know, I love tai chi.

You know, it's that sort of energy flow it gives you. It's really invigorating and helps. I think it's just with general health as well. But to me, there's a very spiritual component to this, being in yourself and in the moment and the flow of tai chi. So that's really where my practice has shifted, depending on circumstances a lot. So I kind of hope that answers the question. But in the past it was much more lots of lots of daily stuff, lots lots of lots because I had

the time. You know, now that's sixty and with a young child, I don't have time. So I just do the simplest stuff that keeps it ticking over and then when I need to or do something accordingly.

for example. I've not really work that much with Marshall spirits, although I say that, but then I have a Marshall spirit pacted to me that you know, offered their services many years back, so I have one on tap, but I don't really work with them that much. There are some I think it has been by probably more by affinity like that. I've worked mainly with solar, Jubytarian, mercurial, and lunar spirits. Those are the four where and I suppose after that would then come satur and then Mars

and Venus at the bottom. I mean, I'm a Leo and I have a very balanced charting the sense of equal equal elements, and it's very mercury have its strong mercury influence in my chart. So the some mercury thing isn't really a surprise. What kind of emily most.

yourself and through yourself, humanity great. I see has been some next evolutionary step. The next step has to be a mental spiritual evolution for humanity. Physical is too slow, and I mean so the proliferation of magic and encouraging people to practice magic is the necessary goal. It's like to evolve yourself and make yourself the best you can be, and also do everything you can to encourage those around you to emanate that to make as many other people

the best they can be as well. It's like one hundred monkeys principle. You know, enough people need to rise to take everybody else with them. So for me, that's kind of the goal of magic, is to try and evolve the whole of humanity to a more positive state. And that's that's kind of been my ongoing thing really, and I try to do my part to that boat.

As I say, putting it out what I think is useful to the best of my ability at the time, and updating it as I go if I've found new and better ways, because you know, the practice I do now is better than it was a year ago. We always have to be flexible, and you know, if something's good, that's wonderful, but if you can make it even better, that's even more wonderful. You know, we always have to

be open to change and have that fluidity. And that's something I've noticed with magicians would be practicing for decades, is you might think they'd get really set in their ways, but the ones I know actually become more fluid and flexible in their ways as they get older because they understand this and they always want to do the things

the best they can. So that's in my books with Claver Spiritum, there's actually some changes in there from Clavers and telity entiargm the previous book because the work that I did afterwards and what I got from the spirit sized working books like, well, that's really good, but you can do this and have to make it even better. So you know that the second book really builds on the first. It supersedes a couple of bits of it, but most of it is still still you know, totally

the way I would do it. There's just a couple of changes, like I do it slightly. I do a different magic circle now to the one I used to use, for example. So yeah, magic some people, it's not a

popular attitude. But me, magic is a service path. It's about trying to improve you know, a lot of humanity as a collective, which is why for me, another really good indicator of people's magical practice and development is the level of compassion that you see in their lives, because with that is absolutely essential demonstrator that people are really understanding and living magic, because the more you do it, the more compassion you have for everything, for life in

general and also for spirits including the dead. You know, it's the understand I think of the interconnectedness of everything that comes and the desire for that to or be progressing.

not a perennialist. I'm an actualist, but I'm going to use perennial It seems like a perennial idea that this by sort of using magic alongside these kinds of more we'll say, higher conscious ways of thinking or being in the world, you actually become more aware of the karmic implications of your your own life, yourself, your magical practice, as well as your relationship to sort of like the

spirits of the land in place. Sorry, I know that was more of a rampant in question, but I just it's very profound that you say that, because it's something that like I think about as well, and so to hear someone else of your caliber say that, it just makes you feel edified in that. Okay, we're all kind of seeing the same conclusion.

can we hear not to swear at them? It's a good example of just even the little things, we need to be aware of the impact of the little things that we do. So, yeah, I totally agree.

You know what days are going to go. It's going to be on a Sunday, great, and work with solo intelligence netkil Scene said, okay, I'll do the fear, you do the practice. So so so fine, and he went before me, and then I was doing so I start preparing stuff and then I read a review that Jason Miller wrote about my book Primal Encyclopedia, and he made a comment about my chapter or practice as I put in there, and said this is a voice that we don't hear often enough ranking the contract and they got

me thinking I should write more practical stuff. And then I thought, I did this booklet fears back on the conjurations and the planet for intelligences from an old sort of text. But I just gave the intelligence and I've been saying to people for years and years, intelligences are a great place to start now for myself. But hang on, I'm putting the stuff together now to explain to people how to do it. And there's nowhere out there that

tells you. It's just there's the conjuration without telling you what circle should do, is what tools, et cetera, et cetera. I need to write a book that's like a complete manual, because virtually none of the grim Wars are complete manuals. They're like piecemeal. They're like bits that the person wanted to record. I need to record the spirit catalog, or I want to record these magic circles or these conjurations.

They're not complete, then there's lots of stuff missing. You can never assume that a grim War, part of someone that's sum a sacred magic a which eight hundred page is huge, and it's his whole system were oven together, is a complete practice, you know, Like I see people saying, oh, the ARB tells the easiest because you don't need tools. No, just because it doesn't say the tools are there, it

doesn't mean you don't do it. It's taken as read that you would use no to use those tools, so know, to have a magic circle of al you know, it's not they're implied if that would be known to the person reading it. So I thought, well, people are coming to it, it's not going to be known. So I need to put together everything that you would need to know someone who's coming who's never worked a conduration, and everything in this book and clavers, intelity and tim that

you need to know. So all about the timings that all the consecrations is what you need to have, How you consecrate it, when you consecrate it, what you need to do in the build up time, how you deal with the purification, adding in the things that are modern as well being relevant. So in those days, obviously there

was no internet and stuff. So now as well as you're passing having I call the electronic fast, you know that you don't go online, you don't do gaming, you don't do TikTok or YouTube or anything during that time because you're keeping your mind focused on the conjuration, giving the whole actual sequence of the conjuration with description of what's going on, putting it all together in one manual for people. Because there's nothing really like that that I

was aware of. So that was what inspired me to put cloths into our gentower room. And then as soon as I've finished and sent it off to Hadium, you know, to the publishers, hoor right, then I get because spirits don't keep office hours or plantry hours, they'll contact you whenever they want. That's good job. But now you need to do more. You know this book you wrote, Yeah, that's going to be a trilogy. It's going to be three of them. Okay, right, you need to look at

this and this. So then I got nudged about the winds and the shakina and started going down the rabbit holes those and doing the practices and so then that sort of turned into claver Spiritum and ways to enhance the practice. So it's like it builds on once in

Clovis Inteurgentar. And by adding in the winds and shakina and adding in a few extra bits that didn't go in, I could have put a consecrations for example, boots, and mentioned found out that does talking some grims about wearing underwear, because I've always just started I robe with nothing under it, but no, if you you can actually have consecrated underwear and other stuff under there, particularly if you're outdoors in the cold. Nice to know, you know, anything thermal long

John's consecrate them, you can wear them. So just it's that thing of just trying to build on all the experience I have over the decades of you know, forty four years of conjuration and all the little handy hints

and things or any mistakes that I've made. I'm trying to put all that information in for people so that they've got my template that has worked for me, which they can use as much or as little of as they want, with me explaining why everything is done, how it's done, etc. That was what inspired me to do the Club's books, and there will be a third one in a couple of years, two or three years, but I've got other books after write first. But yeah, it was to put out a nuts and bolts manual of

everything that you need to know for doing counturation. Focus in the first book entirely on the intelligence. Is the second one. I give the conjurations for the Olympic Spirits and the demon Bishops. I put the demon Bishops in

because they've not been worked with much. They're really interesting and they're specifically attributed to the four elements, one demon to bishop, to each alban and so I wanted to bring more of that in as well, because of the lack of attention to the elements what tedition, which was something I feel needs to be a bit more bought.

Because there's a huge amount of planetary stuff in the grim Was, but you don't see that much elemental because the elemental stuff is the foundations that even the planets are built on. I wanted to bring a bit more of the elemental aspect into in that second one in Clave Spiritum. So that's kind of what inspired me to do that, and adding in all sorts of really interesting stuff.

You know, the things that I've developed aren't written in the grim Was, but I found work really well, like the amount of visualization I brought in for the consecrations and stuff. And interestingly, I did find the reference in Simicycramantic came one of the bits hasn't been published yet, which kind of hints at that they might have been using visualization. So maybe I'm not that's I'm not saying this is definite, but it's possible that again, so I'm

bringing back something that was a part of it. That's just really not been written about. I don't know. But either way, if you've got effective tools that mesh well with what you've got, why not use them but enhance your practice? And so you know, for me, visualization is very much something that does add to that. So you know, I put it all in explained it where everything comes from, which grim was, the bits I've merged into a template, or which bits I have created based on my experience.

Is also full of lots of thanks to other people whose practices have inspired or encouraged me, or I've taken bits from. I always credit people because that's all the things I love in the grimworld. Addition, is there so much positivity and people build on each other's work and acknowledge each other's work rather than you know, like the whole it's all about me. Think, No, we're all benefiting. Somebody else does good work, we all benefit from it, and that's how it should be. In magic, you know

that we benefit from what other people do. We're not here to tear anyone down. We're not in competition with anybody. We're all just trying to you know, rise and evolve.

maybe school of thought. But like if you had if somebody was doing grim war work, and let's say part of their daily practice was doing certain breath work and maybe chocraate work or meditation, would you say that's an okay thing to like bring into the ritual to work in or no, because it's not in there. Something as basic as that. I'm not just saying like adding actually extra words are totally different ritual, but like breath work, visualization and breathe, you know, meditation.

called I think anglocentric in past interviews. I sort of appraisal of the Wisdom text through that sort of more maybe Protestant or Anglican lens and saying, okay, it begins and ends here, but now it's become more expansive. In Buddhist studies, we call it Protestant presupposition, this idea that you can only read the Wisdom texts as they are, rather than acknowledge the inner outer secret or tikini language or the various other sort of commentaries and metaphysics that

actually are deeply involved in it. Would you say that that is also how we should try and appraise or read Western wisdom sciences through this more broad lens of looking at deeper and secret meanings and I know this ties in with your ideas of blinds and how much certain authors put in or don't put in, or may mislead you into certain conclusions or understandings.

the first breath in Adam. And it's just like the same. The epithets and titles and all these things have a reason, you know, because they they're like simple layers. They open stuff up for us, and it's so important. They say, like we know, with these texts, not just read it at surface level. I mean, sure you'll get something out of it surface level, but when you start looking beyond that, then it's like that's where you're going to find the goal.

So that's where you're going to like, you know, the wealth that's going to sort of give you those insights. So it's flashes and sparks.

lots of insight. You know. It's when I was actually meditating that it suddenly hit me, hang on, it's like coming in my mind because I was doing like you know, plat void empty and seeing what came with it was empty, and then it was like that phrase popped in and that phase dropped in, and I'm seeing a pattern here, and then I would have picked them and looking them yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm seeing that pattern because I'm being product to see that pattern or I'm inspiring myself

or whatever it might be that we we have to Yeah, so much of back to that think, you know, only a seventieth light spectrum is visible to us, So much of the spectrum is invisible. But we can be aware of it, we can feel it, we can sense it, and we have to apply that. I think when we're when we're reading, Yeah, we're only getting the top of the spectrum when we just read it in that normal way. We have to digest it and sort and see what else we can get from it.

It's currently running at the moment, it's halfway through, so the next one will be in probably around May or May time, so if people are interested, that goes up on Hadian, goes through Haydian, and I always like advertise that's sort of each time has sort of grown a little bit from the sense of any new insights or things. Like the first run of it was about all the turf clubs Intelligent Tower, but now it has all the

Tearful class as Spirit them as well. One of the two books I'm currently working on is another practical grim War book, so by the end of next year or probably that will probably get incorporated as well. So yeah, I mean, I I'm just really excited with the the research and stuff I'm doing the Monks. I'm also doing like a research grim War book that's going to push a few things back and reveal some more bits that weren't known before. So that's some fun rabbit holes of going down as well.

make me think about stuff, you know. Like one of the things that pushed me in one of the chaps I wrote in Clive Spirit and was about eighteen months ago, a guy messaged me and said, I'm in a wheelchair, I have my ald Serrubral Pulsey. I'm about to do my first poetic conjuration. I've got a couple of assistants. Can you any recommendations you have made for how to

amend the ritual to for me? So I wrote them a long email of suggestions of things ways he might rate it and say, maybe the person could do this bit and you don't have to earn, but you should be doing as much of it as you can still. And that made me think I need to put a chapter in the book about conjuring with physical or sensory impairment, and that needs to be highlighted because it's something that gets talked about a little bit, but not nearly enough.

You know, It's kind of becomes like an invisible thing that's unconscious by us because most of us don't have those issues ourselves. We don't think about being inclusive to people who do. And so that that email has resulted, like in the whole exchange between us and me writing a bit from the book, and I contacted cratively who you know who's done a lot of talks about work with physical disability, and asks him to read through it to make sure that I wasn't being at all offensive

or inappropriate in the worst phrase, and things. I was getting things over in a good manner. And that's just one example. I have a lot of people write and you get that thing. It's always a two way thing. It's like with the classes, you know, I always come away with like new ideas and insights from the things that people say. You know, anyone who's teaching should always be being taught by the people they're teaching as well. You know, if you're doing it right, you learn from

the process. And that's why I love giving workshops and lectures and stuff, because I get so much from it. Because everyone has a unique perspective. You never know what they're going to bring to it and what they're going to tell you. That's another reason why there's so many credits in my books is because somebody's asked me questions I've got. Oh, yeah, that's it needs to be addressed. When people don't talk about that. It's like somebody asked me on one of the courses and said, so what

do you do if you want to deconsecrate a pentacle? Oh? That needs to go in there. I've not seen anyone writing about that. So you've made a pact with a spirit and then some years later you want to you want to end the pact? Is fulfilled this purpose? How do you deal with that? Damn, that's another really important thing. I need to Let's talk about that. Let's write about that. So you know, so many people often it can be the simplest questions by people who wouldn't have much experience.

They're like, they almost feel awkward about asking the question. But those questions are often the ones that hit the hardest because they're the things that people don't address. It's the things that seem obvious that don't get talked about, and the things that are obvious and don't get talked about are often the most important things that need to be talked about because they're the things where you trip up.

And that's a lot of that's been one of the big things in those Clavers books is about trying to address a lot, you know, things like that so that people don't trip up because it's already addressed in the way I've written about it.

just say this, thank you. Check out brother Matt, check out his stuff. Obviously he's my coast and the Gray Lodge and I have an episode dropping on my show Threshold Saints with Gregory Peters, who just wrote the book New A on contra with our other co host on The Gray Lodge, Solar Exile, who I believe was in the chat a little earlier and so look forward to that. And of course love is cause of knowledge and with the daughter, let's fucking go. Thank you guys so much, appreciate it.

So we're gonna be going through the Kabbala of Alice Chapelli and also on theays, I've got your emails, so send them to Headless Giant Podcast at gmail dot com and I'll read your esoteric slash occult experiences on the air, which David, if you want to send me some mail, that would be amazing.

Thank you so much, and thank you everybody else who came on the show and everybody in the chat. I really appreciate it, and that's we go live or appreciate everybody's questions, whatever they got to add, and that is the end of another Cult Rejects and until the next one, everybody be well later.