You see, something's going to happen.
What What's gonna happen?
What?
Help? Welcome to the Occult Rejects. I got a bunch of rejects with us here today and no Georgina Rose. Unfortunately, she decided to cancel about a twenty minutes before the show. I guess she wasn't too intimidated by the people that are on the show. She needed to vet them and blah blah blah blah. And because I said fuck twice because I was a little upset, she basically said, go fuck yourself now. She decided not to do the show at all. So unfortunately, Uh, sorry everybody. I thought she'd
be coming on, but she's not. I guess she's scared of the Occult rejects. I don't know.
So we're gonna kick it anyway.
Fuck it. We're all here. So, uh, we got somebody else new with us today. I was very, very excited to get this woman on. She was in the oto with me. We did a lot of we did two initiations together. We spent a lot of time together at that place with other people that we were very close to. Uh. We even did a class together there on Zoom did you forget about that.
Judith is Sigils class.
Yeah we did that.
You know.
I just had to say.
It was like, you know, one of the few real friends that I had in the Oto, and she was always just you know, a good person.
So I wanted to get her on.
I thought, you know, Georgina Rose was coming on and she had shown up at two Really Lodge a few times, and I thought maybe Judith had met her or whatever. I just wanted to give her that chance to meet the woman. And uh, I figured, fuck it, let me see. Uh you know, if I can get Judith on and she was able to, I hit her up. It's been a while, it's been fucking years. Actually, you're like.
Yo, you just disap here, dude.
I was like, yo, I had a weird magical experience and the OTO was weiring me out, so I just balanced. I just didn't know what to do, but yeah I did. I did basically just disappear. But uh yeah, we got her on, and Judith. Please let everybody you know, like what your dealer is. I know, you have your own channel. It's not really based on magic, but you know, you can plug whatever you like.
Uh I I go by the loan, but Ji Swanson and yes, I I do have my own channel, and my channel is based on basically, uh more like self awareness, not into high magic, even though I still still into it. I'm still into it, but uh yeah, it's still loan.
It's called a loan.
Uh.
I guess I'll share that link later on with Unick.
Yeah yeah, if you give me the link, I could put it down in the show notes for sure. Yeah, but go check out that channel, and uh, you know, hopefully if things work out right, I would like to get you more and more offen with those students, so that'd be funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, even just bullshit and had about the experiences that we've had.
I mean, there's so many things we can talk about.
And finally, next we got the Headless Giant.
My boy, what is going on?
Sir?
How are you?
How you doing?
You can find me on YouTube and everything else. It'd be interesting to get some stories out of YouTube. So let's see where we're going to them.
All right, And then we have Arrowsop Arrows show it up. And I'm so sorry.
I know you're really excited for this one. That's why I feel bad.
I was so excited for this, but that's all right. I'm still happy to be here with you guys, Always happy to be here with you guys. You guys are great friends. But yes, you can find me on YouTube at aerowsup and you can find me on Twitter at arrowst those. I post a lot of astrological things and her medic and neo platonist things. I'm coming out with a new video Assume that I'm really excited about about Chaos Versus Order and uh yeah, so there's gonna be some neo platonism in there.
There's gonna be here, so.
You know, o Cyrus raw Typhon really excited about it. Check that out hopefully Thursday or Friday.
Very nice, nice, awesome. Yeah, definitely check a look out for that. And if you haven't listened to the other stuff that she has done on the show, I think you even have that up on your YouTube, correct.
Yes, yep, I have some of those old presentations that I did.
Yeah, so if you want to go over to her channel and check out some of the work she's on the Legal REJACX Fucking Bangers.
They were so good, That's why I brought around the t the team. So check it out.
Yes, that's right after me Monday, and I didn't want to put you on the spot, but I think Hella said you might have been able to come on this Thursday again with us on the mailbay. Yes, yeah, that was actually fun when you joined this. I had a good time, so look forward.
Yeah it was and hopefully we get some mail, send us mail.
Right, That's what I was even saying before.
I've even said that before.
And it's like I'm not even trying to brag, but it's like, yo, when you look at like if I was like to show the numbers how many people listen to the show and the fact that we get no mail, it's like it's fucking weird.
Actually, like I was saying to.
Somebody else, like you know when I was I've said this to Jim plenty of times, like I have this obsession with like wanting to change the way Thlima is seen before I die. And I did tell him, I was like, you know, the show already has more people listening to it than he's even even in the fucking oto at this point. So like when you're finding yourself in that position, like could be possible to pull that off, but like that's what It's like, come on, send us some fucking mail man. What the fuck?
I'm even offering to send out free stickers.
I'm sending you a seventy something something that would have a sense stamp.
Plus the course of the stick is for you just to.
Send us an email with your address and they I'll send you for some free stickers.
So come on, man, all.
Right, I think it's a conspiracy of all these other shows. They actually write their own emails to themselves, so this is actually the norm. Paranormal experiences are not that common.
So.
Exactly right, I mean, or even weird dreams. Fuck, I mean that. I'll be totally honest with you. I'm surprised we haven't just had bullshit sent to It's just being like, oh, I'll get some free stickers out of a bullshit story, you know.
Yeah, just go in to chat GBT.
Just be like, I need a bullshit story for a paranormal tale for the Occult Rejex podcast.
Fuck.
That's now we're gonnaet CHADGBT stories. Fuck all right, I'm gonna shut up, Jen, go ahead, please.
Yo, what is boss mister ninety three? The true ninety three? And I just want to say so that's too bad about Georgina. But I'm I'm actually excited to be on with all of you guys, and I have read her book, and as like someone who has a journeyed the suffering myself, I feel like I'm fully capable of to talk about it, and or we'll just talk about like Macaba journeys in general.
And obviously, if you really are interested in all the work that we've done on Rejects, you can listen to Matt Murra, Joshua the Branch and of course Solar Exile me.
Do our have done the Kabala series.
We've done all the speculative Cabala hundreds of hours on the Gray Lodge, as well as my show. And my show is really outpouring of Nick's show, not because it started because I started coming on Rejects, but it was really because Nick let me kind of train quote unquote as a podcaster, as an occult podcaster and meet fucking cool people.
I'm gonna say that for it.
I'm sorry, Nick, And so that's really so I would consider myself like part of the I'm part of the nebula of rejects in like a small way, and definitely the Gray Lodge is absolutely.
Like a little brother show.
Oh no, I love that, Ijax. I've wanted to say that before, but I never I wasn't sure how you would take that. But I do look at it as like a brotherlike it's almost like, you know, an extension of the occult rejecs.
I would it's absolutely an extension of o'call rejects the Gray Lodge because it developed out of the idea of doing panel because I, I mean, I have my own show, so I don't like, you know, I can do whatever
I want on that feed. But then to do like the thing with we all for we're hierarchical, we're trying to we're trying that out and you know, I have to be the boss a little bit, but it just do more, you know, like creative decisions and then Maths are webmaster, and then the other two bring like so
much knowledge. So it's been a really exciting, like the last three years Nick, to do this with you has been like really great and thank you so much, and you've really let me allowed me to meet exceptionally interesting you know, my favorite things American magicians. Anyways, So all if people are going to get mad at me, They're going to say, I love bombing you.
But that's okay.
So I just want to say thank you to Matt Murra and Joshua the Branch of course, who are my brothers.
And the Gray Lodge.
I didn't know this until two days ago, but the Gray Lodge was actually the name of a chaote podcast from the early two thousands that was doing aonic work. So you were saying, like, how Nick, you wanted to
sort of change the nature of Telema. Well, I think in a lot of ways, like the show that you've created, and then the shows that like I've gone and done, and then obviously like even like Headless and Arrows, like they're doing their like more hellenic stuff, and I think that that's it's all sort of inter working parts of like we're all working on we're all doing aonic work. We're just sort of looking at our individual sort of
lenses of it. And of course I obviously I'm one, this is my thing I'm known for as am of the Daughter, so that would have never come into wish. I think I always had the idea, but I think I mean, I definitely did have the idea, but I was like, this is it? It came into manifestation through the show. So that's a great work and I owe that to you, so thank you, Nick. And if you want to check me out, check me out at Wukan Reborn, w uk O and g Reborn or at Threshold Saints
on IG and Twitter. I did drop an episode with brother Greg Kaminski from a culture personality. I know, we just did a show with him as well on Rejects, but I did a like a one on one sort of like Tondraic Buddhist conversation, very discursive, very high IQ. Even I had a hard time keeping up sometimes and it was really great. And I have a really amazing interview with the writer Joe Nelly, who's also known as Pill Leader. He's very he's kind of controversial if you've
ever seen his reels on IG safe sleazy. So but anyways, I have an interview with him coming out and lots of stuff coming up.
So just keep him and keep him, you know, keep watch his face.
I guess.
Thank you so much all of you, and I'm really excited to meet you to at Fustball. Thank you.
I was really excited to get a round, but uh yeah, thank you very much. And I appreciate all the kind words, but uh, you know you said something like the aon or whatever. Uh, you have to keep going on about what I was saying earlier. But like you know what, I'm trying to push the idea with the OTO, but not even so much the OTO. Even in a lot of occult orders, the people that are the faces of them, they're getting old. Just keep it real. Lon Milo is
in fucking at Spring Chicken anymore. James Wasserman wasn't. He's passed away. Unfortunately, they're not gonna have too many big faces or some of these orders anymore. Eventually, the old Aon is gonna die regardless, and people are going to have to step up and start being coming a face
or doing something with it if they want to. So, I mean, just even like what you're saying, I mean even that you know, we're talking about going from one to a on to the next in so many ways, I'd even see like even the voices of the faces of what of what things can be is gonna change, you know, or has possibility.
That's the possibility to.
Sorry about that, No, go ahead, We're leaving the institutional frame.
That's what I end up.
The daughter is we're leaving both the long House and the institutional frame, so you know, the sons and daughters we get to remake it. So let's remake it in a cool fucking way.
I want to get a little bit more nerdy and sciencey about it.
Actually, I like Lon Milo, but his his stories it's just like, well my opinion, I think they're deeply it coulded, but you know, you know, funny stories about Grandpa fucking around with the magic isn't too deep, you know what I'm saying. But whatever, not trying to shit on the guy, but I would like, I just think there's a lot of magic, regardless if it's the lima that is just kind of not looked at, like too intelligently right now.
I don't know. Yeah, I got to catch up with the tongue, man.
I feel like it's out there. And what we've been doing on this show is trying to put these dots together, you know. I mean, we talk about the psychic stuff, we talk about magic, we talk about all these different esoteric ideas and then try and bring them together somewhat, you know, so you can kind of makes sense of the world.
You know.
That's what I was like, even trying to do with like the herbs and the colors and stuff, is like even showing that there's even legit science behind how some of this stuff works. You know, maybe people may not want to listen to it and believe it, but like it's it's I hate to say it, but whatever, but.
Yeah, there's a lot more involved. I mean, even on the show.
I don't know if Judith knows, is yeah, I even try to get into physiology, where I do even think a lot of occult symbolism and some stuff Crowley was talking about was legit inside your fucking eyeball in your brain. I actually believe that tent, that tent that we look at him Minerval. You have to say on after that, I swear it's the optic nerve. I'm telling you that is the part of the fucking eyeball right there in Minerval. I remember James even said, Minerval shows you everything if
you know what you're looking at. And I think exactly some deep shit in Minerval. Believe it or not not to keep going on about it, but I do think, I do think I actually physiology. I think you know, Crowley was actually talking about that and some stuff that may not be something you knew about the show or knew about me since the last time we spoke, because I don't think I was.
Telling you sit like that when I knew you, So that's new.
We had time to contemplate a lot.
Yeah, yeah, all right now, Matt, sorry fucking taking over the show normally, not just talkative.
It's so good.
I guess this one will be in flux since we don't have really a central theme. But yeah, Matt Moura can always find me at Mattmora nineteen. That's going to be on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube, Twitch, maybe some other place. And also, like Jin said, there's the Gray Lodge. We are going to do a spaces this Friday, and make sure to go there on Twitter or you can check out the archived version both on YouTube, the Grady Latch, or our website The True Ray Lodge with the v
so True The True Ray Lodge dot com. Also my website Caballa dot com, k A A B A l a h dot com lock coal stuff there. Recently, I've been doing more on the side of tarot. I'm just doing some cool experiments. Actually, I shared on Twitter on my pin profile.
Very nice that I did.
I want to I want to work more of that.
So if you want to be a beta tester, just DM me and I'll hook you up in the details. So a lot coo stuff there. Again, happy to be here regardless. It's always good to talk with the boys and the girls. So let's ferecking go.
Oh yeah, thank you very much, William Barkin whatever, I don't know, whatever ulteri ego you're using right now.
Well, normally for topics like this religion and esso terrorism, I usually get with the branch, but I realized some people may not know who that who I am because on Twitter I warp as an umbrella scientist. So yeah, anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for hosting, by the way,
and it's nice to meet you Judas and Aeros. And if I didn't say anything else, I would just like to remind people to, you know, be you know, keeping physical media, maybe archiving shows that you like like this, so on and so forth, because as we move further into this new aon comes with that, you know, this digital realm as it intensifies as well, you know, so personally, I feel like we're in like a silver age, Golden Age, whatever you want to call it.
Of the Internet.
We just don't realize it, you know.
So these opportunities to share space together, whether it be here or on Twitter, it's very sacred. So you know, just cherish it and you really appreciate it and interact with it, you know, because it's it's a synthesis thing, you know, Otherwise you can just talk to yourself, right, So yeah, it's special. Thank you guys for being here and those in the chat as well, and all shout
out to Threshold Saints. Also, we do spaces every Friday night or every other Friday perhaps We're not really sure what kind of schedule we have yet, but and then on Wednesdays I'm gonna try to maybe start doing spaces as well. So anyway, thank you so much for hosting.
No, of course, no, thank you.
You know, I think some people, if you don't know it too, like if you want to get like a full night of occult ism in they're normally like running their show before we.
Have a go live on a Friday.
If we do so, like if people haven't really listened to it, you know, suggestic go check it out regardless. But yeah, sometimes when I'm booking shows. I'm like, these motherfuckers got their show on Friday. Man, I'll get a guess And I'm like a really one gin in man whoever, And I'm like, they got You know, I can't bitch though, you know that you're doing the damn thing.
But uh yeah, definitely check out this stuff. That's really good.
But that's kind of what we said, was that by doing it like every other Friday, it opens up space for other opportunities to like, for instance, right there would be an example just to point it out.
But uh, you know, thank you for coming on. And last, but not least finally, Ethan in the go what is going on, sir Puce?
Everyone always excited to share my two cents and learn from you guys. And I love the synthesis and that idea. I'm a writer frequently putting together articles or ideas that kind of bring together the East and the West, and I like to explore the esoteric and the exoteric. And I'm totally an anti institutionalist, but I love learning from veterans of whatever the institution or group might be. In fact, I'll quote headless he may not even remember that he
said this. The military is full of people doing secret ship right next to people cleaning ship.
I thought that was the funniest I like that.
I thought that was the funniest juxtaposition.
UH that only someone that is a veteran would would be able to annunciate. So I look forward to hearing Nick and Judith your you guys experiences with the with the UH form aforementioned group that you guys were met.
Are no, thank you.
I'm really happy you made anything. Actually I wasn't sure if you were going to make it. But sorry again that you didn't show up.
But I was looking forward to seeing her.
I'm I think we all have an interest in her, in her work, so that hopefully.
I love monetary stuff. So I was like, fuck, yeah, yeah, if you look at that. We even have another author on the show. He didn't need to be vetted. This guy wrote more books than her technically. Fuck actually, well, I would you consider yourself almost a prolific writer? I mean, you write besides books, you do write a lot too, don't you know the areas I mean you do constantly, right man?
I mean I mean I don't know prolific.
I will you're right enough though, I mean I guess.
It's getting to be a pile. But I don't like to that's that word I think is a little bit.
A little bit much.
It's kind of pat I.
Want to write and I want to share writing.
I think it's uh, you know, a good endeavors as opposed to all the other things we could be doing in the.
World, like.
It's the world. World gets crazy.
Yeah, but uh yeah that's everybody, Thank you very much. And uh, I guess we'll wrap it up, Judith, if you don't mind.
Will you win the service?
Yes?
Actually I thought that's right, true, that's right, that's right.
Yeah, yeah, headless was in the reserves, right, the reserves or something like that. Yeah, oh you muted.
Yeah, twelve years.
Oh to me, I did eight years actively.
Where did you go? If you don't mind me asking you?
Uh?
Overseas.
I deployed the Haiti once and then I served in Germany, my my last tour.
Oh sh how was Germany?
Germany was wonderful.
I want to go back, well not maybe right, not right now, but I always want to go back.
I loved it nice, nice, Oh my god.
I would have been in awe just of the architecture there.
Oh, the architecture, the culture. It was unbelievable.
Have you ever been through four decks?
I went through Four Dicks. Actually, when you take the the.
When you come back, if you want to be cheap, then you want to go to the Army Way.
You know that's well? Is it still up? Did they close up the airport?
Oh?
I don't know.
It's it's good forever.
But I was through there too.
Yo, this is crazy. You remember you remember, I think probably from the OTO. I think I had to like fill out paperwork to justify why I went to prison. I think you knew I went to prison, right, Yeah, So I did federal prison time, and I did it at Fort Dicks.
I was literally in the barrack. I was. I was in the prison.
Why this man was on the other side getting trained? How the fuck does that happen?
How did we not run into each other?
He didn't see me standing on the fence, though I wish I was free standing at the fence. Hold give me a cigarette.
Yeah that's wild shit, dude.
But yeah, no, I thought when he when somebody said so, yeah, mentioned something about uh, the service, and I show you you made a face and I was like, wait, I think she was in this.
Yeah, had some gangster shit. I think. I remember when you told me that. I was like, wait what, Yeah, that's pretty cool.
And I actually try to work a lot with the veteran as much as I can with the veteran community because.
Recently that they were forgotten.
If you don't mind, I just want to ask you a few more questions, just so you try to get a little bit of remembrance or whatever. When you when you were like practicing normally, were you doing, uh, did you do like the lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram? You did do that? You did that stuff?
To me, that's you have to do it. It's like.
Making.
I mean, I'm sure we all know people who don't but.
I made.
But that was the wrong face. Yeah, some people I don't need to do it.
Yeah, yeah, you know.
But yeah, it's just cool that I actually have like a female on the show that actually did the same rituals that I did.
Well, you also have to remember I also have my background also, uh entails being wicked, so it was wicked practice. So cleansing your space is very very important no matter what you do to me, no matter what path, whether you stay on this path, or not.
Well, the lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram and a lot of formal uh situations inside wickup too, so like, yeah.
It depends on which traditions.
Yeah, you know what, It's almost like sometimes I've noticed too it almost seems like a mix of the lesser and the greater, because like I've seen like somewhere the wickens will like holl the towers, but you're not doing that until you're in the greater Pentagram.
You're not doing that in.
The lesser Pentagram, you know what I'm saying. So I've even seen like there almost seems to be a little bit of a mixed mix.
But yeah, like it all depends on what tradition you train under, that on which way you do it. So but in high magic, I feel the less benefit that banishing rituals should be automatic.
Oh yeah, exactly.
Do it that will?
Did you did you use the middle pillar?
I love the middle pillar.
Yeah, I used to be.
I thought about actually doing that again recently because it's just a meditation.
I love the metal pillar.
It's uh, I don't want to say it's a quick way of doing a chakra alignment, but that's how I felt.
Oh, yeah, you hit five out of the seven.
You know, what I really liked was the visuals that you had to like kind of create, like the stuff swirling around and swirling down you.
I don't know why that.
I always thought like if I got it, if it started to happen, I was always like, oh my god, this is so sick.
The question is which version do you like doing? You know, the Hebrew version and then you have the plymic version.
That's right, Yeah, I see. I only did the Hebrew version, and then I started fucking around with an Egyptian version, and I only did that a few times. And then around there I stopped fucking around with magic and I.
Found each one gives me different results.
Yes, I have heard that, especially with the thlemic one and the for the other one.
I have a sorry, guys, I have a quick follow up for Judah. Just it's a personal question. If you don't want to answer you, that's totally okay. But when you were Wickan, what pantheon did you prefer? So that's question maybe A, and then question B would be I we like for the gray lodge, we called a middle pillar, specifically a middle pillar group, and so Sola and I interviewed Gregory Peters, who wrote the New a on TNTRA.
He was heavily involved with a on of Mott workings in the nineties with Anemma, and.
He also wrote a.
Sort of his book has a ritual like a Middle Pillar ritual, and he kind of does a little TNTRA with a little new Eat and like, I didn't really fully understand it because I don't have a ceremonial like magic background, but I think that Nick should probably get
him on eventually, and yeah, let's let's do that. But I'm sorry, but I wanted to know why you like the Middle Pillar because it is like just even at face value, for me, it's like even the idea is profound rather than it's like it's not edge Lord, but it's still magic, so it still has like that transgressivity of what magic is.
I think once I tell you which which did I prefer? You don't understand why I like the Middle Pillar.
Uh, And she's not very popular actually, but Mott, the DDY I'd love to work with is Mott, which actually falls in place because it brings everything in balance.
That's interesting because that is the that's the aonic deity sort of if you use the Egyptian system.
Yeah, aren't you kind of all about mott in no sense jin?
Yeah.
I mapped it to a contrac goddess called Kurra Kula who wields a bow and arrow, but she's very It's a very similar kind of idea. And for me, I put it on Path twenty two, so the lamed path because I said the keyword, because obviously Curly didn't give a keyword, so I said that, Actually the keyword is not what Frederichad said, which is ahava, or what Nema said, which is so. So I said, it's lamed. Me'm delette,
which you and I have talked about many times. Second, it's obviously love is the cause of knowledge, so love is the way to take you all the way to die. Sorry, I didn't mean to like big up myself. It just was the that is the that is sort of the owner the daughter like in a nutshell, that's the cabala that we did for the great lunch, like all four of us.
You have to look into that.
Yeah, what I'm trying to think else too? Uh? Did you ever get into the hexagram me?
Yeah?
You, Judith, Yes, I haven't got I never got into that. That's usually when I stepped away a little, when I when I got stuck in the Malcoo's like I told you, and I had a certain I have a strict rule. If things aren't completely correct, I can't say perfect. I don't progress. I try to fix what's going on because it's usually a sign. It's like a danger sign to me if you're you're not in the right mindset.
That so I do want to.
I wanted to play with the hexagram a little, but unfortunately life got in the way.
No I could understand that.
Nice.
Yeah, I was just wondering, did you ever do the star Ruby I love? Oh, okay, start.
All right, that's impressive. Nice, nice, Okay, that.
But it's been years.
It's been years.
Oh yeah, well, plus it's in fucking what Greek?
Right, So for like me, i'd have to like.
Read, I probably have to go watch a video and actually see someone do it to like be able to spurt all of it out. Yeah.
I think I think there's there's a document. I think there's a PDF somewhere where it breaks it all down for you.
Oh yeah, there's a few about the actually yeah, yeah, that's how I learned it too. It was through out the book and the videos. But yeah, I was just wondering. I guess I was almost positive that you actually like did, like, you know, did ritual work like circles.
I used that everybody.
Does to be seriously into ritual work, but I approached it as if like a scientist doing experiments.
Yeah, no, I know what you mean, though, so I know exactly what you mean. There was even times it was like, you know what I'm gonna work with this, just this, I don't know. I guess to try it out right, like it's a sphere on the tree, isn't it. Yeah, I mean I know it kind of sounds like careless, but I don't know.
And then when you do that and you can have both like the logic emotion thing like Jupiters, then it gets It's fascinating because because then you have the basis, right, is.
What I was talking about.
The tarrot experience I can share real quick, but like in short, I took seventy two weeks of doing a tarot reading for the week, and then out of those seventy two twenty four I did it daily, so like I would do it on Sunday and then I would do the week one and then Monday, the daily one, Tuesday, Wednesday and soso so on, and then I had everything and I was always like trying to note down the synchronicities, how would that relate to how.
I understand the Terrordansson. But what was.
Fascinating is that by the end of it, the seventy second week, I got all of them into like a data thing, and then I made a dashboard to understand. Okay, for example, what were the ones that I got the most out of the top four. I got four court cards, which were the first one being the when you match when you make the mapping would be my moon sign, my astrology moon sign, the second one my son signed.
The third one the element.
That I have the least and it was a page, and then the other one my ascended like my rising sign. When I saw that, I was what the fuck? Because what are the odds you know? Of all those cards and then those be exactly the ones for my map. I even run some math afterwards with the help of AI to understand it, and it was like one in fifty two million or something for my chart to be my chart and those cards to be the cards that
dot out. So when you have that, it's kind of hard to say, Okay, it's not connected somehow to something right, that there is something there And that's even to me, that's just the chair on the top, because when you take into account the synchronicities that happen, and I'm using character, you can use any other definition too, you can even create one.
It doesn't matter.
As long as it's based on the tree than anything works. But when you notice the synchronicity is then it's crazy, like you just see how there are many more things happening in this reality that our five senses cannot just catch it.
You know, you have to.
Really think more broadly, more abstractly, and Swanen being a scientist about it definitely helps make sense of it all at least a little bit so, And I completely agree with what Nick and the others were talking about how more and more like technology and so on, it will be a thing more so than you know, what we
had past AONs. And you can see that happening like everywhere right, Like you can see, for example, there are many things going on, many technology is going out that kind of not disprove but make it really hard for you to be a hardcore religious like, oh, I just believe the mythology because there's like literally a tool that will do the thing that the mythology was saying. Oh, it's all mystical. It's like, bro, there's literally a tool. Like now we understand more or less how it works.
Sometimes it's like a black box, but we kind of know how it works, so it's not really, you know, like something mystical from the outside of this one. So it's really fascinating to see. And the more like, because I work with technology, the more you see.
It, the.
Crazier it gets. Sometimes we got to step down sometimes round ourselves.
But three nice.
Thank you man. Oh so uh headless or general whoever. I don't anybody got an idea of uh what we were saying, we're gonna talk about instead. I think we could talk about her book. That's fun.
She didn't even have to come here and now we're promoting it. See that's even another thing you hear that I get.
I'm sure, well, maybe not listening to it anymore, but I'm sure she was listening to make sure I didn't shuttle over Georgina Rose. If you still listen, I mean, look, come on, Jen even read your book.
Come on, you know hop in here?
Yeah you still got the link.
Come on, I wanted to nerd out on astrology.
I know that was you know, I loved the planetary magic. That was my fucking thing and all I would assign it to the Tree of Life. So I was like, oh, planetary theorgy. I got plenty of experience at myself.
I was like, let's go.
I was like, what the fuck are really I don't understand that.
It's like, you, did you.
Watch the show before? You said yes?
Well, I'll give her props in one way is that she actually correctly recognized that the planetary names are the outermost density of the cepha, so the planets themselves are actually kleep us, which, of course, if you watch Rejects or if you watch The Gray Lodge, or if you listen to my show, you know that I agree with this. So I have to say, like, I'm not like a huge fan. I barely even knew who she was before
Nick told me. But that's actually impressive in and of itself, because that is kind of a fundamental problem that a lot of people who consider themselves like magicians or pagans or anything that's A big mistake that a lot of them make is they think the planets themselves are these kinds of rulers, these fixed rulers of destiny. But I think astrology is a lot more as Matt said in Flux, and I think that we are much more agential, and I think we are much more agential in our own wills.
And I think that's also what the AON is about. The new AON. It's about recognizing that not necessarily that we're more like free of the demiurge or whatever cosmology you want to use, but that we can actually say in perception, like we actually are free to choose our own destiny and we don't have to be like, your chart is not who you are. It's just an indication
of your karmas. It's not fixed. And if you need proof of that, just study TNTRA because tntraposits an ontological solution for all astrological concerns.
So there you go.
Yeah, I would say fate changes, but necessity doesn't.
I'm still trying to think about the clip of being the planets. I mean, I do think there's interesting way to look at it, but like even like milanetary energy, so yeah, like that would be kind of like one of the lowest forms really going by other things.
So, I mean, I guess I could see, like I see where you're going.
It's it's it's it's not it's above that you would have, you know, archangel order of angels. So I mean, I guess it's really I mean it's not that you see, I see where I guess I can see where you're going with that to an extent, Well.
It's very Hebrew, right, So maybe that's why it's like it's different in a way because the suffer are empty, so they're more and much more like stars. I'm not saying they are stars, but that is how to think of them as empty. So a planet that is composed of gravity densities, just like a sufferer, it has ice aggregation from the rock all the gases likes.
Is gravity fucked already?
Exactly?
The game over?
I think into form art archetypes, right, they're like but some stuff I know, like some people relate some of them to planets, but not all of them are related
to a planet. And then yeah, if you believe in the hierarchy with angels, the archangels, I mean typically those are associated with the different planets, and it's like there's like the planetary forces and then there's like the actual causality of how those forces play out or the actual decisions made, or you could almost say like the algorithmic part that tips things one way or the other. Like I feel like usually that's associated with the archangels assigned
to each planet. But you know that is like highly debated, where like some neoplatonists believe in that concept, in that hierarchy, but like the Stoics, for example, wouldn't they don't think that, like the archangels are like unnecessary part of metaphysics.
I think it depends.
I think that, you know, like I like Ramak, I like Rabbi Cordovero, I like even Rabbi Larrius, I like all the kind of.
I'm not a.
Hermetic Kabala guy, so that is perhaps the difference. Is I'm really like a I hate to shout him out again, Nick, but it's a David Heimsmith kind of thing. Like i approach Kabala in a more Hebrew way, but I'm not Jewish, and I'm also like a Buddhist, so it makes more sense to me to approach it in a nondual and non theistic way. So I agree that the sepher are not archetypes per se, but there are archetypes within, bundled into the conceptual ideas, just like there are colors superficial density,
and then there are inner more colors. That's how I relate to the suffer the most, is with colors and names or words if you prefer.
So.
The urt Changels are not the rulers of the planets in the Jewish system.
They're just associated with the suffer.
But the planets themselves have their own planetary rulers, planetary hosts of the planetary God.
Yeah, there's even like, was it the Olympic? The Olympic spirits might actually sound like that when they're described. There's a there's other I didn't even realize that there is other other planetary associations. That does make it sound like they're ruling over something. But yeah, the regular Medica Bella, the way you're talking about it does. They're just like associated with it. It's almost like that person's character fits what we're trying to tell you. Here's what you're.
Trying to say, an example, an example of a good footballer. You're going to say like Bill or I'll do whatever, But.
Then you wouldn't necessarily say that they are just that they are still like men and human and fathers and whatever or whatever, like their older things as well. Or there could be other people that do what they do but in like a worst way, so they wouldn't be the best example for you to give for other peoples.
Of comment in the chat, sorry about Pico how we found like a Christian truth inside Kabbalah.
I also agree with that.
To be honest, I'm not a Christian and I'm not going to be Christian, but I'm just saying that there is an if you want to call ann of the sun, there's an an of the a a kind of of the sun truth in Kabala like you can prove, like you can prove, there's like a teperatic consciousness that you can rise up to, just like the universal hexagram. That's really what it's referring to. And then if you have your strong enough will, you can pass through. But it
takes a prepared heart, a gilded heart. Maybe I don't know.
Oh, you know what I've noticed. I found it interesting.
One time I was like looking at a like a document where it was showing like I think it was like NASA had a problem with their mirrors. Yeah, in the in the in the telescope, the Hubbard telescope, something went off on their mirrors and then they decided to show a diagram about how the mirrors are supposed to reflect, and it's a universal like sagram. I was like, that's fucking If I found it, I'll send it to you.
Yeah.
Yeah, I look for it after the show and I was like, okay, And you know, Crowley didn't come up with that either, right, Yeah, he didn't actually invent that. Somebody else did.
No, it wasn't that. What didn't that come from the Golden Dot?
No, it was prior to that. It's like eighteen hundreds.
I think this guy guy did it.
Yeah yeah, yeah, that's a lot of people think he came over with it.
He actually did. Yeah, but uh yeah, it was interesting. I just figured i'd tell you that this is another interesting fun factor.
So you know, I'm a type of person who once I hear it, I have to look it up and I have.
To re look at it. But h Jen, I kind of understand a little bit where you're going with that. I mean, I could see it's a very interesting way to look at it.
It's no, it's a little different, you know. No, it is no for sure, but I mean I.
Guess gnostic, a little neo gnostic.
I'm putting yeah, No, I guess yeah, But I mean I guess like the way I always say, like I think, once you put in the form, you're kind of screwed.
Yeah, I mean it doesn't sound great for being a human, I guess.
But like if if I look at it that way, I guess the planet's put into the phone like it's screwed too.
Well, this is going to be followed away from God. I mean, you're right, but there I think that. Like what why I asked them Judith the middle pillar question right at the front was because this actually is all rectifiable in the middle pillar, Like you don't take extremes of like going say, oh I'm an antibody gnostic or I'm a hedonist kind of gnostic where you're just like enjoying the earthly pleasures. You're actually like moderating yourself in your own mind, so like in Yasode in the nine.
So if you're able to do that, then you're going to be able to climb the tree a lot more easily, in my opinion. That's just my opinion. But I'm just I think that that makes sense. But you don't want to also be like I have a lot of Hebrew Cabbala friends like that are Jewish, like ascetic Jewish, and so they they tend to stay at Yesoda consciousness. I'm not putting them down. They're extremely brilliant people, physicists and mathematicians, but they tend to stay at esdic consciousness. When I
say at yesodic consciousness, I get depressed. I have to be a little more dynamic than that, just for me, because everybody's a little different, right, everybody's like has their own bullshit, their own aggregations. So for me, I have to like travel the tree a little more frequently than just like stay at yasode and you know, be a receptor. So I like to actually be kind of free, if
you want to call that. So of course I'm going to push the a little more of a transgressive not transgressive necessarily, but it's it's definitely I'm more ra a.
Call idea of the planets.
This is true in Tantra though, that the planets are minor arcons, not greater arcons. They're not they're and they're definitely not in control of our destiny. That's how we would think of it. But we're a very free agent. Like TNTRA has a very free agency kind of idea like religious framework, So it's not going to perfectly map onto. I know that there's the book on Hollenic TNTRA and like we can have a whole ten shows on that. But you know, for us, like a more central Asian view,
you're very free. It's but it's all about choices, and then that is your causality. That is what makes your karma is your choices. Right now, even in your mind.
I somewhat agree, because you know, that's why Prometheus kind of stole that fire to give us that free will, and that kind of pissed Zeus off because then we did have the free will to make our own choices, and you know, the cosmos, the gods no longer had full power over us.
One hundred percent is Prometheus rising, Jason Georgeohnny, come on, I'll call Rey checks and threshold saints.
And then imagine when that happens again. Because history is cyclical with the AI agents and stuff.
So we think beyond them.
Them, but at some point they're just that they control themselves and news of themselves, and what beck are you gonna do?
We're gonna do that.
Sort of lose that. Man, hell, has you got anything? There's gotta be something going on in that US.
Yeah.
I want to know did this Hellenic contra come out of Hellenic Buddhism, because there was a time period in the uh uh era after Alexander where they actually had a fusion between Buddhist and Hellenic cultures. I didn't know if that was actually related.
It's a new book.
I saw a PD Newman promoting it. I've read it someone. I think Gregory Peter is actually recommended. I read it, so it's not. Actually it's an interesting question what you're positing, Like, was there a Gandharvian Buddhism.
I actually think you heard of it, So yeah, I just no, I think you.
Can actually make a case for a Gandharan Buddhism, like in northern Afghanistan, and like, I don't think that there was Hellenic per se, but I think it was deeply influenced by certain Hellenic ideas that were like left over in the like Afghanistan, kind of cultural region the Gandhara. So I agree actually Helpless that I think it's it exists, but has there been like massive scholarship on it now.
But someone wrote a book and they basically were looking at the Mediterranean basin and then they just called it tantra. But I think that fundamentally misunderstands what tantra is. Tantra's like very specifically essentral Asian formations for the very simple fact that it posits the center of the world as Kashmir. So if you understand that, you'll understand why it focuses towards that region. Like all the all the ideas, it says, this is where it's coming from, even if it's syncretic,
it's coming from here. It's not looking at Greece and saying, oh, this is where it comes from. But there's absolutely like a Mahayana tradition, like Nick showing right now, grecopodism right there.
So I.
Had a question because I guess if you're coming from it as the planets are Arkhans, then does that make you anti order? I mean, does that make you anti mad?
No, because I position it on the this is for me, eros is I always poss on the paths. So by saying that, I'm saying you have to bring it into materialization. You have to bring it into pragmatism. You have to bring it into the real world. You can't just exist in like the greater Aonic concepts like look at Croley. I'm not putting it down like I've I've come a long way in my evolution of like understanding of Tolemic
ideas and Crowley and all of that. But I think that it's important that the Aon arises because they un first of all, rises in your own mind, not some skyfairy. But number two that I think it's important that arises on the paths, because we are of the paths. So Theon should walk with us, or we should walk with however you want to phrase that we should walk with the Aon rather than you know, uh, it's it's not just like a celestial being, but of course it can
also be right. I'm not saying it it's not. I'm just saying that we should like make it of a reality. So like if her themes are like justice, balance, fairness, like all of these kinds of things, that that those then are the Iomic ideals, So I don't know if that directly answers your question, but I'm I'm very pro mod obviously, but I'm I would say I'm anti arconic, so maybe a syncretic nastic in a way.
I come from the belief that it's just best to align to the cosmic order. But I love hearing other people's thoughts on it.
Do you know you've into a lot of planetary stuff, So I obviously was planetary theory, so I figured I just said.
No, it's a great question, because I think there's so
much to be learned from. Like obviously, when we've done shows on it in the past, I've talked about like my early experiences of being like thirteen fourteen reading Agrippa or reading the Greater and Lesser Keys, and how I would play with all the planetary seals, like obviously from a more chaot sort of perspective of like, let's figure out how to like retechno, like reformulate the technology so I don't have to, like, as we used to call it, dress up and larp, and so I always was interested
in the planetary things, So I think that actually laid the groundwork for me to have later sepharatic experiences. But I don't necessarily think that doing the planetary magic was Like if I could go back and change it, I would have actually told my younger self to study Kabala if I'm being honest.
Oh yeah, I wish I studied it earlier.
Yeah, rather than do planetary magic, because planetary magic is actually it's the first principle sort of, but it's also sort of complicated, and it's about, like you and I have talked about this so many times, like, desire is not the same as will, and when you're like seventeen, you do things of desire that you think is your will. And I wish I just would have been more grown up in my personal appraisal of it. So it's not like I dislike planetary magic, but I just think I got lost in it.
So people can do as they will, as Jus said.
So brilliantly, like that is kind of my theme too, like as I well, but you know, just in my perspective, I just wish I could have gone back and like shaken myself and been like, you need to figure out what your will actually is and it's not the same as like your desire.
Oh you beauty to you if you're trying to say anything you don't know.
I said that that is very true.
People mistake their will for their wants, and that's where we tend to misstep when dealing with iron magic.
I totally agree with that.
True free will is what brings suffering to some extent.
Hello's we you went to planetary stuff? No, not really, Okay, you're into theogy.
Uh well, different forms of meditation, yeah, hypnosis and that kind of stuff.
So nice.
I know, I was just wondering if I could get you in on some planetary shit.
But well, certainly can write a guide of meditation using you know, hypnosis and all of the imagery from planetary stuff to kind of imbue a little bit of that energy. I think it changes a perspective. Right when you're bringing different planetary energies into your life, it automatically has a shift in perception that goes along with it. So once you start to identify that, you can you can better you know, understand maybe a better path to go down.
But you know, there's there's lots of different affects that go along with sort of extended periods of meditation or you know, magical practice.
H yeah, even the uh.
Even like I was even saying like even colors and stuff to make a difference, Like even like I noticed how on that thing that I was covering the colors that like some of them, like even when I was going over like kind of like how they looked at in science, it was like this almost kind of matches how the colors looked at like if you threw it on a several you know, or like what is match with planetary its Like it's kind of interesting. It's almost like a thing that just was cross culture.
Oh.
Absolutely, all these different societies would have this huge like cabinet of references that they would plug into all the different planets, all the different I mean, this was how they made associations in the world. It was all through observing these similarities and then classifying them using that kind of observational method. And that's how they got to know the spirits. It's a very superficial process. But getting to know the spirits in the meantime, so it's the outer
and the inner life of of everything sort of. It's it's kind of energetic flavor.
Yeah, it's like intuitive dialectic and then if you really get alchemical with it, you know, then it can almost feel like uh, even prima materia. You know, it's all astrological, it's all all metaphysics is kind of tied to the twelve and too the four into the three and.
Something I just learned recently.
Through the Occult rejects Nick forgive me what is his last name, Jamie.
Jimmie pol Yeah, Jimmie Polan.
He shared a word that I have never heard before, but it really leads, I think, to me at least a fuller understanding of magic.
Uh, symthemata Is that right?
Is it?
Am I saying it correctly? Do you remember that word?
They say sympathia sometimes like the platon Yeah, sympathia, cosmic.
Club, thank you else.
I just thought that was such a great way to understand the coordination and the relationships and bringing together all these things that are in alignment with the pursuit of the whatever magic you're you're putting forth right, So that was a great word. And I couldn't remember maybe it was synthamata here, but we could have been something something different.
It's the same thing. It's the same thing.
That's the Greek version, and she was using a love version.
I actually might have that open in my timis right now.
Uh, helped me understand some things that I've been intuitively pursuing. But he put it in that concrete term that really you know, made it made it a stream of sense, sensible approach.
That was three syncredicities.
Actually, the video that I'm putting out, uh, I'm I'm starting it out by explaining sympathia and cosmic order because it seems like you have to in order to to then contrast it with chaos and stuff like that. But yeah, it's it's uh, it's the ideal forms and base pieces of matter. So like the four elements and then obviously the three the soul for mercury and help me out headless, so thank you, yes, or those also correspond to the soul, spirit and body, and so it's just like yeah, basically
these ideal or yeah, these base parts. So then this idea almost like everything is happening at once. It's just unfolding into.
Free body problem. That's what we call them, Buddhism tree kayah, three body problem. All things are all that's happening at one time, but you perceive them in the three worlds. Yeah, well we're obviously we're nondual, right, so we have a totally different ontological ideas.
Of the world.
But I just wanted to like go back to that thing that you were asking a little bit before, and I wondered if you were familiar with a Gnostic figure called Nuria, and she's a prominent character in the Epinoia of Nuria. And so in the way that I sort of formulated with obviously not just me, but in the gray Lodge that we did, it is that we said that the Aon could also be compared to this Gnostic Aon, and so she actually is kind of God's daughter, but
it's not really, that's not really the story. But the idea is that she actually burns the arcs of the Arkons down. And one of the important stories in her gospel is that the angels who are of the lesser they're considered lesser angels, but in the.
Gnostic cosmology they're actually higher angels.
So they tell her that everything that the Arkons tell you is a lie because it's just in your mind.
It's just like delusions.
And so the way to cut through the bullshit is to just say, like everything that is not at that sort of place of pristine awareness or like Rigpa or diamond thunder, or however you want to describe it, sort of like that prime consciousness.
The fifth.
The space you could say, Akasha. If it's not there, then it's arconic. So it's not I'm not like I said, I'm not. I don't posit it as like order v. Chaos. I think it's an interplay, and I think it's like a synthesis as well as a rectification. And I think that we should always This is just my idea as a cabolysis is not I'm not teaching anyone or saying that my idea is the best.
I don't think that.
But I think that when we're in the tree, we should always try and be dynamic and at both differ anyisode, and it should be like a die, like you said, like a dialectical relationship between those two things, the higher and the lower consciousness, the waking and the sleeping mind.
Thank you sir.
Anything else you guys wanted to talk about truth.
I just think it's kind of interesting how we're approaching the same sort of consciousness problem on so many different levels, and that's like it's representative of occultism. I think so you've got the standard scientist, which you know, he knows how to push one button on the elevator, right, he knows how to get to that floor, and how to do his thing. But then you've got the occult scientist who's always pushing all of the buttons in the elevator just to find out what each one of them does
along the way. And I think that's that's sort of emblematic of what a lot of the Kabbala stuff really is. It's bringing all that stuff together into one synthesis.
Yeah. Well, and it's it's interesting too because it's like, I think there is this big theme in the occult of order versus you know, I would say chaos. I guess where it's like to me if if you take away the you know, the the order which I associate
with the good, then the cosmos falls apart. But you know, I do see a lot of these themes in magic where that is that idea where it's like, you know, your subconscious is made up of all of these patterns because we can't help but you know, do dialectic and have pattern recognition and notice these different archetypal forces and stuff. You know, some people are probably closer to it than others where they're like, oh yeah, that's so mercurial or
that's so jubitterarian. But like I noticed Anhalima a lot, right, the idea is to like break up those patterns, so like you might do these rituals where it's like almost purposefully confusing your connection to these patterns, and it like causes this like disruption in your subconscious that can do all sorts of things, like it can be psych fragmenting, honestly. But his idea was like you either awaken from that and rebuild it, I guess on your own, or you
go insane. But I guess he did have like this argument also that insanity is necessary to cross the abyss.
So it is I think right at it? H right, So do you even think like this is insane?
Yeah, I mean what you're saying now eros like in the latter part of your comment, I totally agree with. I don't think that the order is inherently good. I don't think chaos is inherently evil. I take a very nondual view, so I know this is very different. I know this is much more Buddhist, more contric I get that I'm not saying my view is the right way. I'm just saying for my system, this is the right way.
So for me, I take it as a middle path, like not extreme right hand, not extreme left hand, but I might draw from those ideas like you were saying, chaos magic really emphasizes the idea of breaking conceptual thinking.
Buddhism really emphasizes this idea of breaking conceptual thinking. Kabala at the more nondual layer really emphasizes the idea of breaking kleipas, something Matt loves to say, because we have to break kleipas because we they veil our true understanding, our true awareness of what something really is, maybe even call it its true name. So it's not that we are out to be transgressive or we're and we're not out to and inherently like prop up the status quo either.
It's a little bit of both. It has a little bit of a rebellious spirit. But I think that Mott, I don't know, Judah can literally disagree with me and say like, oh yeah, Jin saying something naughty. That's okay, I'll take it. But I think it's a little bit of a rebel spirit. That is how I understand they are, but I am totally open to like pushback or people's other ideas.
I'm not fixed.
And this is the other thing is I try not to be fixed in my particular way that I frame everything. I try and have different frameworks when I talk to different people, So like I'll have a gnostic framework, I'll have a Buddhist framework, or I'll have a whatever, I'll just or the Egyptian one. I think that's all okay, because I think that there are different ways that people understand the conceptual ideas for themselves. They don't have to
think that I'm the you know, arbiter of it. They can just take it in their own way and you know, use first principles like Helas was talking about.
That's what cabal is.
It's about mapping reality onto the tree and then and unpacking it, unfolding it and folding it in like a flower.
I don't know, just an idea. You give me a really terrible idea.
So what do you guys think about doing a golden ass kabbala, just like a full commentary breaking down the golden ass in the kabbala.
I think that would be amazing.
All right, we get I wanted to address.
He'll be okay, sometimes it ship jobs out.
Sucks.
I had a quick thing I wanted to add onto the idea of or insanity to that Buddhists put forth the idea that life is a tube.
And you're either going up or going down and staying still doesn't make much sense.
At all, right, But I just wanted to say that, Judith, what were you gonna say?
No, Actually, you hit on what I wanted to tell Jim, because I do agree with Jim's aspect, because if you're looking at the kabbala, you're not meant to stay in one place.
You're meant to have that movement.
The whole point in my view, in my opinion, is to not get stagnant and get stuck in one place.
So I agree one hundred percent with what Jim was saying. And you actually supported that even, Thank you so much.
Sorry, no, sorry, yeah, just again, Look in nature, right, Nature never stays the same. Everything changes all the time, and things live and die and change and transform and so on.
So like breaking the klifas right, that can be the.
Butterfly or the caterpillar that breaks itself to become the butterfly. Right, So everything is again constantly changing and removing, and if it doesn't break that cliff, it stays as a caterpillar forever.
So it's just about reinventing and changing.
And again seasons change, people change, but they can't stay the same at the same time.
So it's it's this constant just.
The the Hebrews well call the thing soon right, the movement, contraction, expansion and is one. So even the chaos and the order like you need first, so there's nothing. You need the chaos to kind of move things around and you order them to make sense of it. Otherwise you just have too much chaos and then you cannot understand anything. But then you bring chaos again to have nothing then and so on.
It's like back and forth half.
Of the Pliny sword in the in the serpent right, going up and down.
It's one.
Brilliant Nature does have these natural laws, though, and if we didn't have those laws, and I think to the I was gonna say, I guess I think to the Egyptians who all they had this feeling like chaos was something that you always had to fight back against, you know, and you could even think of like uh, like Zeus killing the chaos serpent you know. Huh yes, uh, Like some people believe that Typhon was Guya's, you know, child
that was supposed to try to defeat the Olympians. Guya's like last chance at kind of fighting them for imprisoning her children. So it's just like this primal part of nature that's always going to be there, just like man, you know, is the master of nature and has to fight the beasts back and has to fight the weeds back. You know, it's kind of like that concept, like chaos is always going to be there.
I would just.
Follow up Ros by asking you, like a fundamental Cabala question, like how do you personally reconcile the paradox of the relationship between Gevra and Hesseid if you're at or even just you could say the right and the left pillar, because those also work in Zimsum as Matt said, like those are the two suffer that fundamentally have the strongest dialectical relationship with each other, fire and water, So they have to be reconciled, and they have to be reconciled
in the middle pillar. How do you do that? I'm not I'm not putting you on the spot or anything. I'm just this is just a Cabala paradox. We often discuss it, and it's just it's a really fundamental way to sort of understand how the tree works. It's like Matt said, it's simsum. It's the zipping and unzipping. It's the breaking of the klipas of your own conceptual understanding of things. Because the person that I I'll just speak for myself, the person that I was at two years old,
is not the person I am at thirty seven. So my own, my own life, my own marga has unfolded in a way that I have gained at least I think I've gained in perceptual understanding of the universe or knowledge even maybe a little bit, just maybe a little bit,
but a little bit. So I have to recognize that not the way I when you Okay, so when you walk through the gateway of Malcouth first time onto your slade, you are childlike and you don't know that even the names of things, you are like fully lost in the Abyss experience, as as Nick mentioned, you don't know you're for the first time. It's like the example is like you are a virgin or a bride, So you don't. So you just call things by what you think that they are, or relate to them as you believe that
they are. But as you sort of cross the I would call it the carnal ground or the abyss. As you cross those experiences, you actually gain in knowledge and you realize like, oh, I actually was wrong about the way I've perceived these things at first, so you change. So that is what I'm talking about. It's not really this dialectical arrangement between order and chaos. It's really about matter and spirit.
That's more.
That's more Hebrew Cabala. So I'm just I'm not saying it's different. I'm just saying that that's my perspective on that. The tree is best understood in dialectical relationship. But all the stuff for a work in dialectical relationship, hes said, has a dialectical relationship with Bina. Mercy has a dialectical relationship with understanding. You cannot understand text. That's essentially what bina is. It's the it's the black ink on the white page and the white vellum. You can call it
the Torah, which obviously is the law. But you can just extend that to mean, any text, any canonical text. You have to bring that into loving kindness. That is the only way to understand that. You can't take it as literal. You're supposed to take it as part of the realm of ideas, interpretive, and then you kind of relate it to the things that we know, which is hode, which are the words that we have, the analogical sort of devices thinking that we used to describe the universe.
That's all imperfect. This is just a Cabali stick thing. I'm not saying that you're understanding is imperfect. I'm saying that from a more Hebrew or David Hamm Smith, who I'm a big fan of.
Obviously.
Uh, that's how That's how I would That's how I would say.
You do you get in touch with that guy?
Yes?
I am actually yeah, yeah.
He I felt so bad, like I hit me up on like every fucking platform possible. I just hadn't checked my DMS for like a few days. But no, I didn't check like my uh my inbox, I like because I wasn't following him, so it didn't show up in my regular inboox. Yeah, like I was looking for you for a minute, and he went to iike it, that's how he got your contact.
Yes, think of some shit. Yeah it felt bad. I dropped the ball onto there, But I mean you got touch with them anyway.
No, you didn't.
Nick.
It was because of me coming on the show that he even noticed who the fuck I was and was like, oh, actually Jinn's talking about cabal in a very similar way.
But that's and I didn't even have read his.
Books until probably two or three years ago. And it was because I'm Buddhist, because he started out as Buddhist, and then I approached Hebrew Kabala after. So that's really like where we that's our similarity is that we kind of were nondual and then we kind of were like, Okay, let's look at Hebrew Kabala in a nondual way.
Remember I told you I thought he was I thought he was fake.
I was like, Yo, this isn't really this isn't a real account.
What the hell of a thing to a person, It's just like some random author.
Yeah, protect No, you know what the thing was is that the account he messaged me from like had like nothing on it, and I'm like, who the fuck is this guy? And so like I typed his name in and he popped up on like other social media apps, and I click on it and it brings me to an actual, real account, and I'm like, wait, so it's like, does someone scamming fucking Jen or some shit like trall of him or something.
I wasn't sure because it was weird.
It almost looks like that guy made that Instagram account just to message me.
It was really weird exactly, so.
I wasn't taking it. That wasn't too of how true it was. But I mean, then he already said forget about it, already spoke to Ike. I'm like, well, if he spoke to Ike, obviously he's played real. Unless he's making that up.
I don't know.
No, he's a you know, he's a very to me, he's the best cabalist of like the twenty first century in my opinion. It's just my opinion, but that's how I feel. I think his book. I think everybody who's listening, if you want a really great book and you don't want to buy Georgiana Ro's book, go read Blazing Dew of Stars. I think you'll learn so much about it.
He talks about free agency, free will. He talks about how you can relate the Safari era to the Outer three, which I did obviously with Nick three years ago, and also we did in the Kabala series that we did. So he's talking about all the all the questions, all the important questions in modern magic, as well as a
more traditional appraisal of Kabala from the middle Path. And I think that that's what my attraction to his style is, is that again to bring up exactly like it was such a perfect way for Judit to open the show, like the middle pillars essentially what life is, and we walk the past through the suphra we try and get to the Godhead, which props to Georgina Rose like that's what she said. She was saying, it's a septanatus like
a seven star game. You kind of walk up from Malcouth or Sode, depending on how you count, and you sort of want to go all the way up to Ketter that Catter is also Malcouth. So the fundamental paradox is how do you reconcile that.
You know something.
Something I like doing when we were talking about words is going to the semantics of it, and I think it helps a lot with understanding more points of view. So for example, we go with chaos and we go to the Greek etymology, they go to a more like void for the something like open being open or something like that. And then you connect this to for example, like Aeros was saying, yes, we do have order for eximplace.
If I jump, I'm in an apartment. If I jump, I als hold down, there's there's some kind of order here. But if we go to the like if we zoom into stuff, we get into a realm that there is no exact order as it has here, but it has a different order, like if you go to quantum stuff and so one there's like a it's like a different thing going on. We cannot assume the same uh programming,
let's say the same software running. So it's interesting that it's almost as if before we read the from the route, it's being an abyss even or avoid like the chaos being avoided. Abyss is again the thing that leaves space for the order to come. So then I think, well both are necessary in this case, So we need to control both, and like I was saying, we need both like the hawkmdity, now we need both making the connection or even the both pillars because otherwise you have too
much of one, you cannot have anything. If you have too much order, then you don't move. It's like you guys were talking about Germany right Like, it's like Europe right now. They cannot move. They're stuck because they are too ordered, they're too rigid.
It cannot go away. But if you have too much chaos, on the.
Other hand, maybe like us would be a good example, that could be a problem as well. Like you have too much chaos, it cannot come show it, you end up doing again, you don't know where it goes. So always always a bass the middle player.
Yeah, I always love.
To contribute to the chaos.
I think too. It's that is a good point, because it's like defining chaos isn't the easiest thing to do. I almost feel like there could be two types of chaos, right, Like the primordial chaos is just like yeah, potentiality, but you know, I think that's more Uranian, whereas there's the Typhonian chaos, which is catonic and it's uh, it fragments and it dissolves, basically, it destroys.
What if I told you eras that both of those things are the same, that you can reconcile both of those ideas and say, like what Kenneth Grant said, that we are in the tunnels we set, we are in the roots of the tree.
But what is the tunnel.
The tunnel is just the outer sort of formation of reality, and really we have all this space, as Matt said, we have all this potentiality in space. That's how Buddhism would describe even the female principle, or like the new eat, she's she's she's free in space. We don't call her new heat obviously, we call it like we call them sky witches or sky dancers or dikini's. But you know, it's it's similar, it's a similar idea or the Babylon or whatever you want to call it.
But yeah, it's it's the it's that's what it is.
It's like she exists there in nondual wisdom, but it's she's free in space. And so we have to sort of navigate our movement through space, just like we navigate our movement through the tree to that space that doesn't really exist, which is Malchuth to Ketter, that that doesn't really exist, but we perceive it perceptually as like being disconnected as a disconnection between like some people say it's like heart and mind. Some people say it's like spirit
and body. Some people will say it's like aha and like our material body, like all these different ways or the Godhead or the outer outside of form, because a lot of Buddhism is like very obsessed with like the fourth density, like the getting like you're not coming back into cause like you So there's a lot of people who don't want to come back. So that's part of like escape from Samsar, escape from the Black cube. So yeah, you're right, there's all these different ideas of how to
describe it. But I do think that the sort of female, the shocked principle of that New Week figure, I think she can be reconciled in both. She's both shatonic and like void like or spatial.
That's the one as more progressive and aligned to universal law. You know, that's like a type of differentiation that could be seen as chaotic, but really it is it aligns to the laws, and it's it's progressive, whereas like it creates new things based on those universal laws, whereas the other is like it just destroys and entropies.
I mean, I believe in karma very strongly, Like I think we're governed by like a cosmic principle of karma. I'm not talking about like Vedic or Vedontic karma. I'm talking about obviously Buddhist karma, which is predicated on ideas of like rebirth and free will both. But yeah, it's like the exactly what sor Ethan. It's exactly what Ethan said. It's like, that's how Buddhism posits us. We are like
fish traveling up the ocean of stars. We are like swimming in the cosmic body of new eat, swimming upstream you could say, in this like endless cycle, like a spiral, and so like we kind of yeah, like it's both. It's both the formation of primordial destruction and then also the one that's more ordered by the universe. But that's again I would say, it's all fundamentally in your own mind as well, Like it's these are outer principles, like
observational principles. But like Matt said, like nature doesn't stay the same. It is decay and generation at the same time. And so for me, like the an of the Daughter or an of Mott, I'm very comfortable using either frame because it's I think for me it means.
The same thing.
So I think it's an aon of generation, but we also live on the carnoground. Like if you want to be truly nondual, you recognize that the world is like, yeah, it's a garden. It's beautiful at times, and then it's also a carnoground at the same time because everything that is alive has to die. That's just part of the
cosmic formulation. So it's like a rose. It's like a rose is such a perfect example, right, because roses do really well with what blood meal and bone meal and someone's fish meal too, so they that is like the kind of like thing like you just don't want to be I just don't like to stay fixed. This is just for me, but I don't like to stay fixed.
On like one. I'm not like like I'm.
Pro generation because generation also implies decay in eventuality.
It's like a there's like a thing.
But it's not like I'm inherently trying to degenerate like anything or myself. I'm actually trying to like just be progressive. And I actually even think that's what the anima is. And if you look at like the Buddhist goddess that I tied it to. She holds the bow and arrow, but she wields a flower, so it's a blue flower. So she's a red or pink goddess and she has a blue flower at the end of her bow. You could tie that. There's an interesting way to tie that
to Hessed. So you could say that her body is like coming through the hate heatless flame of Geverra, but her like her weapon quote unquote, is tied to loving kindness. So it's like tied to the progressive idea, not saying political, but progressive idea of like how do we relate to each other?
How do we treat each other? How do we understand our relationality in the cosmos? I don't know.
These are just like these are just greater like ideas that we've been all working through. And as I said, like, I don't think I have the answers. I'm just this is just totally speculative, Kabala. I'm just positive ideas having a discourse. It's I'm not you know, do asou well believe as that? Well?
Aris, have you heard of chaos theory before the mathematical thing? Yes, So I think that's the really like it connects to what you're saying saying in the way that they they see something that appears random, but there is like some underlying order, right, there's some underlying thing creating, and we can understand that maybe as the cather right, Like there's the cather, the middle pillar that creates the hawkmap that creates the uranium energy that you were talking about, which
then again gets ordered in Bena, right, But there's no like when when it's the pure pure chaos. Let's say, when it's the uncontrolled one. If you want to connect to the tarrat for example, that could be the devil, the typhoon that you mentioned. It's like the set the dragon, the one again creating here is pen, the god Pen, so it's the one that's going to destroy.
It's like the serpent point up.
It has its own like it has a need, but it has to be controlled, right, Like you cannot just destroy it everything. For example, someone will say I want to have like a Kumbelina experience. Whatever, Okay, you can have it, but then afterwards what they're going to do, Like let's.
Say I uh like the berries.
Yeah, It's like let's say if I'm talking with a Christian friend and then I destroy the normy idea of Christianity that he has, Like I'm fucking this guy, like his life is over, let's say, because his life is built on top of that those that order that he was created in, like a Christian let's say a country by Christian France or whatever. And then I come to him and say, no, but this and that and that and that.
Is bullshit, like it's actually some other thing.
If I don't teach him how to rebuild again, if I just destroy, I completely agree with you, then he's fucked like that.
That's not cool at all. It's it's gonna f him.
But I maybe, like we're talking about the Ranian one, I guess it would be more connected to like the star, which in this sick is like Panora Soupreneur's box, right, the chaos that Actually it's almost as if the Zoos is like, okay, guys, now you get the power that Prometheus gave you, but you get to bad things as well. It's like not only good things come on now you can create stuff, but you can create some bad stuff as well.
Then Pandora is doing the shady where.
But it's it's cool because the star comes after the tower, which is again you just destroyed the same castle. You destroyed everything that doesn't matter and you don't need it anymore, and so on, and then now you plant new stuff. It's like again the staff hope. And so it's again the chaos being the starting.
Point from which you organize. It's it's uh.
If you take any example, right, if you want to cook, it's gonna be a chaotic thing. Everything is gonna be around, it's alsthing. You've got to organize it into food. If you want to be a good whatever electrician, you gotta organize everything for the electric thing to be.
Built or the house.
And again you have to grab that chaotic thing, all those materials and optimize them into something nice.
So so as a maybe from where you start, it's gonna be more chaotic. Yeah, especially if you don't know. Right. Again, the homa you kind of.
You understand, you'll not understand you you are aware it exists, but you don't understand it.
So again it's chaotic. Gotta make sense of it. Got to bring it to me, not either Ethan.
Do you remember watching the uh, the video about the the plane of inertia on trialogues.
The plane of inertia.
No, remind me the cad wheeler UH clip where he's talking about the plane of inertia. How everything sort of exists inside of this thing. It's got the figure right.
In the middle.
Run away inside of it. How much of what they're talking about sort of fits into that model?
Well, I I was that's a that's a great example.
And I was thinking about with the uh the idea of the two pillars.
You know, I'm maybe it's I'm just so innocent.
Maybe I don't know, But whenever there's this idea of midd path or right path or left pillar whatever I mean, I am astonished when anyone says right or left handed, because the pursuit of balance is so ingrained into me by way of the middle Path and Buddhism and the whole balance and tai chi and not of course too this. So I think of the pillars as being potential actions or potential being right. We have the potential for severity
or the potential for mercy. My tai chi teacher put it really well, there's the potential for flexibility, and there's a potential for rigidity. In flexibility, there is still the potential for rigidity. In rigidity, there's not the potential for flexibility. So sometimes it might be actually performance useful to be in one or the other left handed or right handed pillars for the circumstances and situations. But often I feel like the middle path is is where we want to be.
And you know that depiction Headless had the straight line within it is as the center line intersecting with the center point, and that's really where our physical and psychic power is most potentiated, is when we're balanced right. So I always think about just pursuing the middle path, and then I am I have the ability to be to understand that both polls.
Well, spin creates polls and balance spin right, And so the idea of spin, when it comes to you know, the fundamental nature of the universe as well as these higher topics, never usually brought up. But you know, spin creates that dip larity of you know, on one side, it's moving in one direction and on the other it's it's moving in a completely different direction based off of your perception of the thing. So spin at the very
core starts to create weird geometries. And that's like one of the fundamental principles, which is the taurus right, like this trust energy field. Whenever you're talking about spin within the toroid, you've got the figure eight of this constant motion being pulled through the middle right, the middle pillar being the result of spin.
That's interesting when we're talking about the middle pillar ritual, you are picturing a spiral coming down yourself as well, and stuff going out and looking around you making an X, and then down the middle.
Pillar of you is the spiral.
I think that that's why, like even that spiral sometimes that you see like drawn on walls and shit, sometimes I do think it's representing that it's not always like.
Some antichi, we conceptualize centric fugel and centrifugal forces emitting and.
Coming to our our center, same same kind of idea.
I love that you said that, Ethan. I thought that was really good and that was a great point Nick about the I think it's a universal thing, Like I don't think it's specific to me or specific to anyone, like Ethan is saying, like I think that, like you could look at Daoism as a very like more on the side of chaos, because they often like give they sort of give homage. I would say it's a primarial chaos often in Dronza, so I think.
It's they allow chaos to unfold and work with it in the Wu Way idea.
Right, So not to interrupt, No, no, no, that's a great because like Daoism is Wu Way and zerin, so it's spontaneity and like allowing exactly what Ethan said, I'm just using the matter and words whatever.
It's exactly that.
It's just like letting it unfold like a flower, Like that is the universal you can say that is the universal metaphor for the universe. Right is the flower, like whether it's a lotus and okay, spinning swaska absolutely, you know, like this is a very tonic thing, like you see a lot of the primordial chaoscott as she wields a swastka sometimes. But you know it's it's like the spinning motion of the universe. And like which way does it spin? Well, we would say it spins non dually. We would say
it doesn't spin left or right. We would say it spins in our perception, so we get to choose. That's how I think of it. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, and just when we also say stars over planets, but we don't worship stars either, So I just want to point that out. Is like we're not so fixed in the seven luminaries because we also have a nine luminary system, especially in Tntra and in Joe Tish in general. So we use the nine planets, and they are nine planets.
Like people misunderstand this, but Rahu and Katchu our planets.
They may not exist physically exist, but they they are there and they have to be understood to be there. And of course, like even when David Ranking came on him and I spoke a little bit about this, I asked him like straight up, I was like, David, how do you reconcile the outer three with Rahu Ketu? He was like how do you?
And I said, Okay, Well, Katu for Neptune, Uranus for Rahu, and Pluto is like a way out, just like death is a way out for everybody pretty much. They all think that. So if you if you matt Pluto to death, not everybody does, right, Like I think Urine, and I've said this like Uranus and Pluto can switch, So I think like they can switch the sort of if you want to call the planets the klipas. They can switch, but I think that they're because I think it's not
fixed either. I think the tree, like Matt talks a lot about this, the tree is ever evolving, it's ever unfolding, ever expanding. So it's just like it's it's not about like, oh, I'm going to preface this thing. Because ideas can be wrong, institutions can be wrong, So do you not challenge them?
I'm not asking you, I'm just saying in general, like Nick was talking about, like changing t lima, you can't change talma if you're on the side of total order because then you're like Judge dread and you're just supporting the You're just supporting the sort of pillars of how you think reality is. But if you're challenging something, you're pushing kind of against what you think it can be, or you're trying to transform it into what you think it can be.
I you brought up earlier the three body problem too, and I just wanted to throw that out there too, because I know I talked about this a little bit in the Hercules video. But you know, when you have a two body system like the Sun and the Earth, like the math checks out like it's very harmonious. It is a simple system, but throwing the moon in there
that created the first three body problem. And with Rahu and K two being the and the nodes of the moon, right, the moon is what really introduced that chaos into that system. And it's just kind of funny how it works like that, because you know, then you have Rahu K two which is the chaos serpent, right typhon, and also that being associated to the north and south node right where we
have the eclipses, which Typhon is also associated with. You know, I won't get too deep into that, but because I guess, like I would make the argument again that I don't think that the north node and South node are necessarily like Uranus and Neptune, but they are so similar I really do understand, because one is like, uh, like that oh white hole and the other is like a black hole almost and right, Neptune dissolves and Uranus is like that pushing us forward principle. So I don't know, it's
an interesting, uh, it's an interesting idea. It's an interesting thing to think about, for sure.
I think you're right.
The sheriffs sorry, headless just let me say this one thing and then I'll shut up for a long time. Aeros here, You're right, Actually it's not exactly the same, because you have to think of it like what Matt said the Path of the Dragon. You have to think that he is a gential being who climbs up together on his own. Then he fully manifests Uranus, then he fully manifests Neptune.
He doesn't start off there.
In fact, you could say that his favored position is to be at Gevra and at Shawnee or Saturn or Benna, because he loves matter and he also loves the destruction of matter. He's very dualistic, is how we would understand. This is a strictly contract, but that's how we would understand him. So the Uranian impulse, you could say, I know other magicians have called it that God is to
take us outside of matter. Like Matt was saying, it's like that relationship between Ketter and Hopema, between like all that is or all the unity, and like the unmanifest wisdom, the cloudy smoky thing, because like Kaketu, his tail is always described as smoke, So very similar thing.
I have a question. I've been too embarrassed to ask, so go for it.
When they say it's sixty degrees north and sixty degrees south, I have no idea where that is on the ecliptic. I don't know what I'm picturing. So Rahu and Ketu is like these two different points. Is that on the chart itself or is that actually in the sky? Could you map that out to the stars themselves.
I mean, let's just pull up a picture of the north and south note.
I suppose, yeah, do you.
Have one, I'll pull one up.
Oh for people who are listening, and uh, probably after this we have to wrap it up. I did get a confirmation at least at nine o'clock guest is coming on, so we do have a fred RC at nine o'clock.
I'm not expecting anybody.
Here to be showing up for that. Maybe I've hedless one. I'm coming to that, okay, I got I also got also got jewels.
Jewels coming on. Jewels is definitely going on for that.
I put it at nine o'clock so he could because I know he's really big into the Nokia Magic and just just to just to throw it out there, this guy has his own podcast too, and I was kind of telling him my situation, and I guess I'm not the only one that that has happened to.
He's not too happy about her reason.
She's very high strong, you can tell. I can tell just watching her videos. It's like she's very tense. She come back down, come back down to malcouth, Georgina. You don't have to live at you know, you don't have to live in home all the time.
How do I make this go on the screen?
I don't know how to do it.
Oh no, my email, No, don't look at that. Okay, it should be good. Okay, So that's they're not actual like parts of the guy. It's just where that the Moon's elliptical and the Earth's elliptical around the sun, like where.
They meet, where they meet, got it, shadow planets, headless. That's how he's even thought of, like very subtle body. I mean, Rahu's a physical body, you could say, but it's like he's the on it and the catchoo is the opal or the cat's eye.
Yes, and that's where we always have the eclipses.
Yeah.
See, I find that really interesting how you then eclipse falls into this because they've even said from my experiences, I feel like like polarity changed when they separated from each other.
Right, But it's bringing that three body problem into very very sharp contrast because you can see all of the different parts of the geometry that are now flung into gravity with each other.
And how does that make any sense?
You know?
And the elliptal the I don't even know if that's the is ellyptal.
A word, elliptic, elliptic.
The elliptics. So the Moon's is about five degrees off from the Sun. And what's really interesting is you know the north and the south node, it takes eighteen and a half years for them to return to their like in your birth chart for example, example, a lunar return takes eighteen and a half years for it to return to its original spot. But there's this this point where the moon goes out of bounds and it'll go five degrees below the tropic of Capricorn every eighteen and a
half years. We're in a period like that now. Actually last January it was at its peak at the lowest that it goes. So it goes the moon goes out of bounds below where the Sun ever goes, so it's out of it's out of aspect of like raw or Helios, right, which fights back that chaos, and it goes below Capricorn into the cold, wintry dep's where the moon is debilitated. So that's kind of interesting. Actually, it's going below the elliptic or the tropic of Capricorn. January sixteenth, it'll be
the lowest again. And this happens for about three years, where it'll go below that tropic of Capricorn every eighteen and a half years. So it's just kind of an interesting thing.
I have an abstract question on something we've been we've been discussing. I can totally relate to the idea of an ARCon being of a planet, or an arcontic force of the planet, and and then but also there's this idea that there are arcontic forces. Maybe they are in fragmentation or maybe they're more separate entities. But there was this gnostic idea of arcons coming from Saturn to Earth
because they did not like our music and singing. And it makes me gin specifically, I kind of have sometimes related this arconic force to the Buddhist idea of hungry ghosts. I wonder if you might maybe elaborate on the astrological arcontic and these maybe parasitic arcontic forces.
Sure, thank you, Ethan, I appreciate that.
So this is obviously partly a mad question too because he is the Bana Hope Ma guy. But it definitely you could say that Saturn or Shanni. Well, okay, so let's start out with this. In of Sanskrit, planets are called grajas. So right away from a Buddhist perspective, that's not a good sign. That grasper like a serpent keeping us here but not necessarily here, is in material creation in our consciousness. So we only can embody the pure
concept quote unquote pure concept of the planet. But if even if you read the we'll just stick to my system, like we'll stick circularly to our Tarbadas or Joe Tisha. We'll say, if you read the stories, the planets are very jealous, kind of like flawed lower devas, lower gods. They are not the highest pinnacle of consciousness Buddhisms. Obviously you know this, but Buddhism is very concerned with consciousness and like having a quote unquote pristine consciousness.
So if you are a pure.
Concept of a four or that is inhabited by the five maras, so lust, greed, anger, jealousy, and there's one more I'm forgetting. But yeah, the planets embody these kind
of clichs. Are these poisons the strongest and so and this is also the idea of the klipas too, right, the klipas are people get really obsessed with them because if they think it's left hand path and it's so edgy and so awesome, And in a way it is kind of awesome because you can conceptually understand things, conceptually relate things, but you're not supposed to take it as like, oh,
I must worship these things. You're just supposed to take it as like, oh, okay, this is the way that sometimes traveling if you want to call it that, like
traveling through the suffer of Bana. Sometimes our understanding can actually be misunderstanding our One of the klipas of Binna is actually the occultation of things, so the darkening of things, hiding things behind saying oh this is secret knowledge, like what we were talking about this right at the beginning, like leaving the institutional frameworks, so like everything that Nick has done for the whole time that he's been doing this, when he did like I'm not trying to big nick up,
but I'm just saying for me, it was pivotal as well.
But like when he was like Ny.
Patriot and like you know, doing is saying that he's breaking the klip up of Dinna, like very literally, he's saying, like this is not secret, we're taking out of the institution. We're like very That's very aonic to me. So I don't know if that directly responds to your question, Ethan, but definitely there are aonic quality or ionic sorry or contic qualities in every planet. I'm not saying the planets
are evil. I don't think that. I'm just saying that they position themselves as having lower desires, as we were talking about before, So I think that people should try. And because I'm not perfect either, I'm not saying that like, oh I'm like some proceners and.
Absolutely not if I was.
If I was out of proscene, i'd be like traveling the hyperspace Kingdom, like surfing on my surfboard, like out of here. But the reality is it's like I'm here, so I have to, you know, reconcile, like like you Ethan, Like I wasn't trying to joke because I know you surf, but I but that is how I like in it.
It's very much like the silver surfer, the quicksilver surfer.
He's out there in the in the in the universe on the eighth wave on his board, and that is like sort of how we should be. But we also are in the world of form, so we have to kind of reconcile these two things, these two polarities, and that's like the perfect thing, because you know, Buddhism says that there are ten polarities, eight polarities outside of you and two within you, one up, one down, so we
get to choose. And these are also related to the inner channels, and as Nick would pose it, they're also related to yes, your optic nerve, Yes, your physical body. There is a physiological way to map the treaty and to map magic. I personally leave that very strongly.
I mean, some of the nasty things, some of the nastic saints that that Crowley put in, is a you know, the gnustic mess. I mean, draw the eyeballs in the brain in their own work. So just right there, if you look at the people that he talks about, thank you, Jen, nor anybody else, did you have anything else you wanted to add before we wrap it up? Unfortunately, now since I know I have this other guest coming, I kind of want to wrap it up.
So that was inured.
Thank you, guys. I'm sorry that it turned into the Gin Show and spe but no.
I thought that was great. Actually no, I mean you guys got to go back and forth. Everybody was respectful, and I thought that was like really interesting just to hear each other's takes.
I mean I got something out of both of you. I thought that was great.
Actually, yeah, Mondrick is the dialogue is the discourse? I think I don't agree on that.
I was so happy for it. I just be able to talk to someone who can explain they're reasoning for things in such great detail.
Thank you, Eric, So I really appreciate that. And likewise, I respect you greatly for all your knowledge.
I really do.
And I think it's a mark of a great kabalist to be able to As we've always talked about in the Greay Lodge, Matus heard me say this ten million times, but you have to be able to defend your positions if you're going to have a cabalistic position, like if
I say the aon is on path twenty two. I better be able to tell you, even if you had never cracked a Cabala book in your life, I better be able to explain that to you in a way that is understandable, discernible, and testable through your own wisdom, science, or your own practice of it, rather than just like say, oh, believe me, No, I don't believe in that anymore. I'm very much like I like what you know. I think
Nick and Judith also agree, like and Matt. Obviously, if you as a magician, you have to always say show me.
I like that. I like that a lot. Very good, very good.
Ja.
I thought that was great. I really appreciate all you coming on.
Sorry again about the guest, but I think this show was a It was awesome anyway, so it doesn't matter. So Judy, thank you so much for coming on. Please we definitely have to get you on again.
It was my pleasure. I tell you, A spark was lit under me.
And it's fun talking about that ship again, right it is?
It is?
Yeah, yeah, you want to you wanta everybody know about you show and stuff?
Again, it's it's basic self awareness on a more mundane plane. But it's still lone and I just help guy. Well, I give people tools to help themselves get in tune with their inner cells. And I also do buddy check once a month for the veterans to help them get act. We made it into civilian life too.
That's awesome. That's good. That's great stuff.
Juthing Yeah, and if yeah, I'll include your include the link for your show in the bottom Hellos Giant, please, my.
Man, how you doing.
You can find me at the Headless Giant podcast on YouTube and on uh now Rumble and also on x SO check me out over there. I've got shows coming up and shows that I've already done this week, so check them out.
Oh yeah, that's awesome, dude. Yeah, he's a very very busy man. Go check out his channel and Ethan Indigo sir.
Thanks everyone so much, Nick for putting this together. Hopefully we'll get to talk with Georgina in the future. Thanks to you guys for the insight and inspiration. So I'm easy to find and appreciate people reaching out and see us.
Sunday Headless got it awesome.
Thank you very much for coming on, Ethan. I appreciate you making the time I easy during the day for you. But that's what's up a rose, what is going on? Thank you for coming on.
Yeah, thanks for having me Nick. As always, you can find me on YouTube at Arrows Up and you can find me on x SAT Arrows to eat those Yeah, no, Georgina and that was a bummer, but I still had a great.
Time, Okay, So.
Thank you for coming on, and Matt my man, I appreciate it, sir.
Yes, fucking t wee ball. We can handle a panel good even if the guests doesn't come.
But anyways, you can always find me as at Matt Moore nineteen. That's gonna be Twitter, YouTube, uh TikTok, Instagram, not rumbled, Twitch, maybe.
Some other place I don't know.
Also or Gray Launch, the truegray Launch dot com with the v so true, the true grad latch dot com and my webs that's Kabala dot com k A A B A l a h dot com. Like I said, there's the third thing going on. So for interesting just hit me up and I'll hook you up with the details. Thanks, thank thanks everyone for having me. Was a blest and uh yeah, even though again we kind of switched again, that's the chaos, right, We managed the chaos.
That was great, Thank you.
I like that, and that's been at least jin. Please let everybody know what's up. Oh maybe you can also plug the branch, susans.
I will, so everybody check out the branch. He has his Wednesday spaces. He's done multiple multiple episodes on my show Threshold Saints, which you can find, of course at the link that Mattress Drop, the True Gray Lodge with a v plus Ultra Baby dot com, as well as Threshold Saints dot substock dot com, which is what is one of our many web portals are kind of graffiti on the eighth wave, you can call it that we're doing.
So I've just recently built that.
Of course, you can find me on x and Ig, at Threshold Saints or at wukongre Born to w Uko Nng dropping an episode with Joe Nally. This other character who I've had on a Zuki who calls himself a motorcycle outlaw nationalist. This is a really interesting character. We talked about Judge Dread and Machiavelli and so that'll be
a little different for me. And then I have two amazing episodes with Satchke, who is basically well he considers himself like the Saint of the Crystal Millennial Millennium Kingdom, and he actually invented a way to use nineties computers to build your own AI, like a personal AI that is like for yourself that is not connected to like the bigger AI.
So it's very exciting time.
I'm really been blessed through obviously this show in particular, but also because of at, Joshua and Solar. Of course, all three of those guys are like my homies, my brothers, and so I really appreciate it, and it's been extremely generative and I could not imagine doing aonic work without them.
So check them all out. Check the Matt out.
I'm so proud of him doing his tarot and his episode that he did at the Young the Young Library. I'm sorry, madam forgetting that name, but the Young he did a thing on Young A had a famous library associated with Young in the Netherlands.
Great arm Pagan podcast. Thank you very much, Thank you very much, matt.
Aten, thank you so much, Jenner, Thank everybody in the chat and for jumping in and hanging out even though we didn't have the guests. That's what's up. A lot of Jesus, we're still here. Yeah, and if you've got time, check it out. Later on nine o'clock Freda RC. We'll be talking about in Nochian magic. I'm very very excited for that, so yeah, check it out, and uh yeah, I guess until the next one, everybody be well, Lada,