The Kabbalah with Frater Jin- Kether and Chockmah

So everybody brings their weirdest, craziest conspiracy theory and they.

And so I'll have an episode with Simon from Bramastra, who've nick he's a great dude, and so i have an episode with him coming out, and also an episode with Ashley from Union of announ same changer of So look forward to that, and I've got so much coming up. I'm a little behind this week, but yeah, it's rock and rolling, and I appreciate you invited me to be here. I love talking about Kabalah. It's been something that Yeah, it's definitely like been a part of my Twitter presence

personality and also a big part of my show. And I've always said like a big part of that is from you and how you were an early sort of just interralocutor of Kabala in the occult podcasting sphere, like nobody really discussed it the way you did, and so when you did, I was like, yes, this is like someone who has like understanding, this is someone who has like gone up the tree. And from those experiences, I was like, oh, I actually have gone up. I didn't

really realize it, Nick, I'm just being honest. At first I knew I had, but it's it didn't it didn't have boundaries. Maybe it didn't like it wasn't cohesive like the memory.

So you know, maybe we could all be a part of that again in the future at some point, you know, because I even could say just from my own experiences and learning, I mean that was three years ago when I probably did the Scarlet Horror or the other thing. I mean, I've learned and grown even from there, so be a totally different look at it again.

like straight up like serious Cabala Tontra discussion. I did the eleven part series with Lee that was obviously how I started podcasting, and so that was also having sufferatic kind of experiences as I recorded, as you've discussed when doing Scarlet Horror. So I've had that where you've recorded, but I wasn't totally aware, let's say, like I was kind of like, yeah, they were magical experiences and I was having them but I wasn't totally aware that I

was having them. It was more I would listen back in recording it and be like, oh, I actually understand one hundred percent when I was talking about I can see it in my mind's eye, So I get it. It's your perspective changes, and the tree should change. It should be very dynamic. It should not. I think this is just me, Jen, but I think it should be dynamic, and I think it shouldn't be so fixed. And I think when you were talking about Supernel, Triad, Saturn and Benna,

that is fixed. But maybe the Ketter and Hookema are not necessarily malleable, but they're more unfixed. They're more maybe clockwork. Maybe they can, you know, change position. So I think it's an interesting idea. At least keep in mind that it can be flexible and different people have different ways to describe it. That's super important too.

so I'll shout him out. We had a discussion about traditionalism versus primordialism in his episode on Evla, So it's really interesting actually, But yeah, I think that that was what I came to that understanding when we were on the roundtable, is that, yeah, we kind of all recognize that maybe there is a I'm going to use a very tulemic term, aonic shift, and yeah, and so I think that we kind of have to also acknowledge that maybe Kabala exists in that kind of shifting landscape of

how we perceive the world, rather than saying it's fixed. Like I know a lot of people, especially when I first started doing the spaces and discussing it, like you were kind of like a Maverick and just doing it on your show, whereas I had to kind of I kind of did in my own way translate that into Twitter, so I would talk about it and people were like very resistant because it was like, oh, you're associated with the Jays and this. And then I quickly made friends

with Saschke. It brought him up many times on the show. He's obviously been on my show a few times, and he introduced me to this idea of using sailor Moon to discuss Kabala. And honestly, it was as important for me to have that connection and shout out Saschke as it was for me to listen to you to become like, I don't know if I'm like a mediocre podcast or whatever now, but it has helped me so much, like that idea that I could translate kabbala or tantra because

maybe those are the same thing. I've said this before, maybe you can translate that into pop culture, but also maybe pop culture is also relaying those kinds of suffaratic ideas. So that made it a lot more easier for me to start speaking about it more openly instead of being like, oh, this is like the fore an audience and magicians like

they people weren't you know, people aren't normy. So they and I don't mean that in a pejorative, they just couldn't instantly recognize that when I would drop cabalistic language or oh yeah, so I started incorporating these kinds of more people love to do discuss it in context to anime especially, or people seem to give me the most feedback when I do that, and so I just yeah, that has helped me a lot. And so people think that you have to be some great magician too and

study cabal for fifty years. And maybe that's true. And I agree that the stages were very extremely like they were magicians. They were like writing the drive to s neck likes to say, they were going all the way and you can hear it, you can read like you can read. I'm a big fan of Rabbi Cordovero Ramuk and his book The Orchard of Pomegrants. Yeah, Orchard of Pomegrants. I believe I might be mixing up with.

costs like nine hundred bucks. Oh yeah, thirteen thirteen volumes in English, and so I as I was doing a TNTRA series, I read through them and then in preparation to come on and do it with you, so I was like, yeah, this is really interesting, and so how can we bring this like medieval knowledge and update it? Sort of? I know, I rambled for a really long time.

I'm sorry, but I wanted to bring it into twenty twenty five and like uh and like let people know that it's out there, Like it's not just in those books, Like you don't have to buy books from eBay or a Books or whatever like an it's aquarium book dealer. It's actually there and it's actually somewhat preserved and somewhat understandable. So I always found that really interesting. Just that it's sort of been my Kabala evolution is how I would say.

It's like started from a very traditionalist kind of perspective. Like, yes, we have to not talk about this thing in Buddhism or this thing in contra, but we're going to try and present it in like a very traditional, very middle pillar way. And I still try and do that, but I realized in twenty twenty five again it is you have to kind of update for your audience.

what the fuck I'm talking about. And then it's like I'm not to sound like an asshole, but it it's like, I mean, all right, I'm kind of like half in the conspiracy world and half in the occult world, and like nothing nothing the conspiracy world, they know jackshit about fucking Cabala, So why should be intimidated? And then I half to people that are in the occult fucking community, no jack shit about Kabali anyways, So why the funck. Should I be intimidated? You know? If anything, I just

gotta be worried about. My lesson is understanding what the fuck I'm even saying.

not wasn't quite where I was at that moment. But the rest of them, it's not that they were bad, but I had to kind of bring them up. It's understanding. That's how I felt, and so that was how I started. It was like, I need to be able to relay it in a way that makes sense. So that's what I that's what I try to do, so I totally relate to what you're saying. Is like so many people in the occult world, they will say they do not know Kabala. I know you had a guest on, a

very important guest who said that he didn't. Whether I believe that or not, it's irrelevant, but I'm not sure that that's one hundred percent true. And because for me, Kabala is like as a foundational map to explain sort of all metaphysics.

But that's okay. I can still use some of the things they say and sort of you know, helps refine my perspective, is what I would say. So a lot of these things that like conspiracy people do talk about are kabbalistic. They may not know a lot of them probably don't know.

don't you want to understand? It's just I don't know, like they'll just credit it saying, oh, let's say satanic Jewish shit, And I was like, oh, okay, that's all it is. This is sid is that old Dixon demons?

understand uh maybe deeper things. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them politically or you know, uh, it doesn't mean anything. That's what I'm saying. So I personally think that they are good akbal, So I'm going to read

their texts. But I agree with you that often the knowledge of kabala does get maybe intentionally hidden under this kind of label of aspersion or which is a cabalistic act to accuse like something of being satanic, of that which you also are m it's actually the klipu of Geverra. I know we're not talking about Gevra today, but yeah, you know it is a it is an interesting like cabalistic note is that. Yeah, absolutely too. So don't discard things.

I don't think it's it's useful. I think you have to. That's what wisdom science is, right, like explore it, test it for yourself.

sending the tree. And so but now I'm actually ready because it took me a long time to sort of accept the descending directionality but now I'm actually okay with it. I've sort of like reconciled that paradox. So I think it's perfect timing for us to do this pernal triad.

to say that it's it's beyond materiality. So it's the you could say it's the breath of God. Even the expression into the world. Well, and you know, it's like it's so pristine, it's so infinite, it's so powerful and it's potential that it's sort of ineffable in a way. And I know that other cabalists like to say, like, oh, I I'm so and so for those are really getting more into the ineffable. But I like to say that Keather is at least the point of like ineffable sort of realization.

sphere it regardless. But I do you find kind of like what you had just said. I do find it interesting. It is almost maybe the same idea.

So I agree with though that that idea of the five density system is just an easier way to sort of reconcile the numerical issues that arise with seven, and not that seven is an imperfect number, but you get it's you're supposed to be clean. It's everything's it's very autistic, right, so you want it to all be clean, numbers, clean, names of God, whatever. So the fifth density is really

daf as well. That's how originally in like the older older Cabala, they would understand death is in every sphere and it's at that fifth density, and it's that sort of crystalline blue color. So I agree that it's it's there. It's not necessarily its own separate suffer, but for counting purposes, it can be really useful to have a to have it appear on the tree. And I think that you

do experience it. I think it's a lot to do with our consciousness too, So I think that that's why I like to place it in the fifth and I think that that's a it's just a neater, tidier system. But of course some people do teach the seven a density method, and that's perfectly okay.

get those two confused. I mean, even right there, that shows that there's at least I mean, there's four different colors or I guess ideas of each spirit to begin with. Just just looking at a cabalistic map, you'll see that on some of them. So I mean, just right there, it shows that there's different densities or ideas. I've even wondered because of that. It's getting a little bit off,

you know, on the rest of the tree. But you know, when you start getting into the whole color aspect, is there like four different like densities or whatever to like kind of show the whole frequency change into going into something else, into a different color as That sounds weird, but you know something with that, I think in the densities it's it's more of like maybe maybe somewhat of

like the path going between each sphere. I wonder if that has something to do with it, like to change and be from one thing to the next.

I would agree with that too. Rather than they just appear they're no, I think it actually has a lot more to do with our consciousness, how we perceive and also control what is happening.

the next. So later on they started mapping the letters directly onto the paths, but that's not really how it was originally understood. It's really about light traveling through the paths, not really focusing on the paths. But that's a more hermetic exercise, right, It's very hode like to say, oh, I want to understand this thing that I'm seeing, this thing that I'm creating.

met the crown. We were talking about gold before, and kether is considered a I think Hebrew for crown, so like even that whole uh, Like, I guess the you're talking about, like the gold flecked in there or whatever the gold is I think is mixed in with u kether And like one of the things I even wondered, like if that is even kind of why they even call a crown in a sense because there is gold

flecked in there. I don't know, like how you were saying that people consider you know, when they go on about the gold with Keather, I think maybe that might have something to do with it. Maybe, But even Keather, I know has also have you ever like came across where they try to explain it as like a crystallization.

they'll make like a golden furnace. It's very common in Daoism or like in Tibet, they use like a cremation furnace or whatever. So yes, I agree that the goddess who goes there, she wears a crown said to be of adamantine. So the idea is the flashing of gold isn't really gold. It's actually like the color of stainlessness. That's how it's more described in a tontic way. But it is flashing metallic, but it's not necessarily gold. It's more pristine. It's more like white. But there is something

just like with a with light. If you've ever seen a Chambarro movie, this is a great metaphor for this is when they do the shot where the samurai holds his sword and the sword kind of flashes in the moonlight or in the diegetic lighting, like in the camera lighting. That's the same. That's kind of the idea for me. I don't know, what do you think, Nick.

the tree as well. But I think if you look at it from looking upwards, which is the inverse to the Hebrew way, So the Hebrew way is you lower your crown, your actual head, in submission to receive the knowledge or to receive God's love. In tntra, it's completely the opposite. It's looking up at the crown in defiance.

actually make sense, and so I'm okay with that. Some people say that if you go to Keather, you don't need to go outside because that is outside. It's like the sort of like we're coming back, falling back down, but we have the we carry the experience with us or people who have been up there, so or some people have said that it can be like a Tracy twinmon and we'll shout out Lisa obviously is like the you know, the World Archipelago, the hyperspace Kingdom. It's like that.

It was a Tracy's idea, was like the trans Uranian and so we'll talk about this a little later when we show the sailor moon videos. But there's an idea that maybe cather and Uranus. Obviously the planets are the least density, maybe not even among the four. Maybe they're the klopathic density. That's an interesting way I've sort of been exploring thinking about it, like Nasauce space Cabala quote unquote, just an idea, but you know, because they are aggregates,

like planets are physical aggregates, they're physical beings. Sepher are empty space or negative space. Excuse me, So what is the inverse of negative space? Is something physical dense made of stone and ice.

pure essence and existence in the buying being. And I even like wonder, like you know, Kether, it does get the number one with it, so I do wonder about like technically that's like I don't know if like you've heard kind of Mario go on with the poles and holes, but it's like kind of giving that sphere number one is a pole in a hole.

you're back in Malkuth exactly. It is kind of the hyperspace Kingdom, and I agree with what Solar said, going to dat is like walking up to a mirror on clearly consciousness. It's kind of a trapsy as a fixed place. I agree. So it's like, but you have to reconcile both experiences, right, It can't just be like you can't just focus primacy on death or primacy on Kether. Obviously Kether is the one, but as Brent said, it's also

the ten. So like when Mario's talking about that, for me, we reconcile it always with a male and a female polarity. That's how it always works. There's no real room for devancy. Oh you know what's really interesting in like an edge lord way, I'm just that's how I think of it.

That doesn't mean everyone. It just as a rule, you could say, but rules are always meant to be broken. But yeah, no, I agree that zero is really important. I like to think of it as you said this, and I was like, yeah, he gets it. There's both expressions in the tree and every suffer And I think that this is where a lot of magicians go wrong. They just focus on either what we would call like the shock d or the female component. Obviously this is

a very powerful way to travel through the densities. But then some will only focus on like the male deities or this pantheon, or they'll mix it all together. And I don't always think that that's the most useful either. And I think it goes along with what we were

saying about colors, like different densities, the deeper the density. Yes, it's it should be more difficult and like emotionally phenomenologically, but it also should be uh, you should be actually losing the preconceptions of before, like the kinds of like the husks, like my famous thing, I well famous whatever that I said, like combusting the husks or breaking the husks. Is that that's what it is. That's what going through the densities. So you're kind of letting go of the

preconceptions of before. So that's oh yeah, yeah, So I think that's really important to think about with death, is that like it is about Yeah, it's an infinite place of rag put, It's an infinite place of like being expansive consciousness. It's not limited, and Kether isn't necessarily limited, but maybe Keather is reflexive.

Because I know wisdom is choke on understanding is, but not what is knowledge?

a hey, a, I am the archangel. I don't know if this was someone that you ever got into, but Metatron is associated with the with Cather, you're kind of supposed to be, like, you know, Gareth Knight is somebody that I him and the Unfortune I would refer to sometimes when it comes to cabalistic stuff. I read both their books, Gareth Knights, so I thought was better because he goes into the pants. It's a fucking gigantic book.

And I mean most people would say that, I mean, he presides that Metatron presides over the whole tree of life as well as Cather because he's at the top. But that is technically kind of even like how I looked at it, like you know, the head motherfucker before you actually get the cut.

You two can reach apotheosis. And of course in magic, this is like a very common idea, right, but maybe it's not that's spoken about in polite circles that you can sort of reach apotheosis or transcend like your limitations. But I actually think that that's an interesting way to also look at Metatron. It's not like he is you but not you of right now.

like I think you do take on these aspects. It's just a way to describe it, and they give it a name, but it is an experience that you will have yourself. I think a lot. So like when you're saying you can become Medatron, yeah, I think you do before before you're blass love. I even think like, oh, even the whole thing, Like if you think of like how kings, you know those are used a lot, how

do they? How do they end up? Like all right, I mean you could become a king, but if you want to, like let's say, you know, you follow it that you become king, if you want to go conquer another place, what do you have to do? You have

to slay that motherfucker and take your shit. If you want to become that, you have to kill it and becoming like it's you know, kind of how I get into like my whole thing with like using Michael Maris as the beast, the motherfuck is slaying everything in his world, and then you'll be coming in a sense, you'll become the king he took over. You've killed everything else. So it's like, you know, in a sense like are you killing Metatron and becoming him?

It sounds like very black, but I do think I mean, you know, if you if you're if you're in it, if you're a spirit and you're not encapsulated anything, and all of a sudden you're in a body that's surrounded by skin keeping you fucking entrapped, it sounds like you're a skinwalker.

within exoteric liturgy. That's this is like Buddhism, is what he basically just said, because that's the idea is that you'll be able to take normative texts like the proanapartmy to Sutras, and from those you'll be able to derive secret knowledge, to be able to derive death right from the wisdom to us off and with that wisdom you can then move forward and go up the tree into understanding so Saturn. So they're not very interesting, Yeah.

ordal eternal elemental powers. Sorry Funck, that'll he believes that the four of those are embodying the prime primal elemental powers in their archetypal form, which is kind of how I think Crowley had used it on his card in this sense. But yeah, I mean even there, you get. I know, Barrios talked about it. These some of these symbols have come up, you know, multiple times on this show. But like, yeah, these are ascribed with I guess Catherine a sense with the angelic quorder.

I know, this is very contentious, and I'm not a natural Tarot card reader in any way, nor do I know Cabala through Taro, but I have used a tot deck for a long time off and on, and although the writer Wait Duck is really good, I have to say that there's something much deeper about the top deck in my opinion.

that and that one. I actually had wanted to think about covering it because like the major arcanda, if you were to see a things that I point out a lot to have to do with eyeball symbolism. It's like, Yo, that ship is literally all over that deck. Like I was like, Yo, this might actually be like more symbolic towards eye bullshit. But the tooth deck, I do think that that's it. Yeah, I am impressed with that deck. I'll have to say it is what it is. I mean, oh, no,

it is very interesting. There's a lot of I honestly think there's in that toot deck. I think you're seeing light reflection. I think you're seeing the eyeballs, and I think you're seeing the brain. That's you know, I know, people don't want to give that dude credit.

it a lot. I think it's to pick something. I think preserve something, and I think it's a you know, even if you're not like for me, I'm not interested in Taro that much, but I think for meditation reasons, I think the Tomberg stuff, a lot of the you know, the more og guys they do the Tomberg meditations with the toad deck and I think actually makes sense.

know bird seed. Differently, they're also like higher up. I mean, obviously they spend time in the air in the skies, you know, with the bowl on the line. I'm just wondering if they're like I guarantee you there's some sort of like deep deep symbolism between that, like even their makeup or their their place in the world, you know, or even like even I would say, uh, specific things about the physiology. I think might actually even be reasons why they're used.

I agree with you. I think that there is no virtue, but I think or no vice.

with brilliance, pure white brilliance. And then at some point there is a oh yeah, and then Asaiah that's the pure light is allfo shorn with a slight differential, and that is white flecked with gold like you had mentioned before. So even the colors changed throughout those for a world uh for me, And again, like I just do want

to mention it. If you go look at the tree of life, I mean you do basically see at the top sphere it comes down into the two pillars and then drops down and then if you see you know this from kenther down the middle pillar. It drops all the way down. So something I am just trying to really I guess hammer in there is that it is within every sphere as well. In my opinion. Uh, I would even say sometimes like I Kether, I would uh look at that as a fuck. I just lost my train of thought.

in that way. It's just like so full of something so beyond what we could even use words to describe, like how the light exactly what you said there is like a I don't know. I think of it as like an eclipse before a horizon.

and stuff. Uh, I would even say with kether, I mean that's kind of like light before there's like even sound to it, because you know sound travels is slower than light, or you know lights travels fasted and sound, I know, to break it down into that, maybe maybe it doesn't sound as wild they're crazy, but I mean I do think even an extent again, how I even used the crystal and how it shows all these colors.

Could kether literally be just that flash of light of existence or something coming into existence that can eventually, like you said, at birth, you get that flash of light because the fucking that sperm, that one made it into the zero and now there's the flash of light and something can eventually take form and then be spit out

into this world. Is that kind of like kether? You know that light flash and then all that stuff ingests for nine months and then gets ship out and tell Malkouth when it's done.

lower frequency. But I try and give it like a more optimistic I guess or utopian or maybe you know, as the kids say keathermaxing idea that yeah, it doesn't matter if we're in the lower world, we still try and go up. I don't know, just say give people like a little People seem to want impetus to like they want to be passive agents of like astrology or magic, and I'm like, no, you should take a more act deverall, so regardless of how we appear in the world, we should still try and climb.

just lost it. But again with that whole eclipse thing, like I'm talking about that flesh of light, and it's like, it's kind of interesting how you you come into a flesh of light around a circle and if that is me crossing the abyss, I mean you're going out seeing the same shit.

fucking white one. I know this may sound crazy, I'm sort of like, look at it like that if even if you think about it on the picture on the tree the way it's it's that could look like age Like that sounds nutty.

So it's kind of a fool in the most essential way. And I think that it confuses a lot of people to think that that is like number one, but Hokemow's really two. And so I do think that that is a point of you know, Pathogoras preferred the two, and it makes sense in Buddhism as well. We would say that there's like more of a diad, but we also have a flexible system, so as we say there's like a pentad or eight or whoever, it doesn't matter really,

but we're more like there's more flexibility. But if you're more Pythagorean, you would prefer the two. And I do understand that. And so I could see where people are drawing like a face of God. So I think that Janus thing is perfect because it is kind of like a mask of God, like a Maha Vishnu who wears one thousand and eight faces.

learned that for that episode. So it's.

I actually think that there could be a flexibility between Uranus and Pluto. Like I think you could have Pluto at Heather or Pluto at death, depending on maybe the aon or depending on the system you're using. I think

there's both ideas that are okay. So, but I like Pluto because as you see, she has a key that's her wand and the key is talked with a heart, so you could say love is the cause of knowledge in a very real way, and she opens the gateway the threshold, which is also part of what the mythos of death we can say is is the threshold to the abyssle world or to the Klipa. Although you can also say this about the moon about you sewed. You could say there's a secret path there that goes right

to death. Some people have said that I agree with that actually as well. And so in the anime, what is really interesting is there is a little girl, a princess of the klipas you could say, who sailor Pluto takes as under her wing. So very interesting you sewed or a moon a lunar Pluto connection, I think in her kind of iconography, and that's and so I would say that that's death and more of a if you're just doing like a more teaching people like the general

ideas of the suffer. I like Pluto with death, and I think that she actually correlates really well. And I think that the lady who did it was really into Taro, and so through Taro, I think she also understands a lot of kabbala as well.

into choke Ma a little bit more. Yeah, we might actually not be able to even get to all three spheres. Unfortunately, Sorry I started late.

that she's postconceptual. It's kind of interesting.

think that that's a more interesting way. But I think this is also a valid way because they thought through it and they were like, Okay, how do we reconcile this kind of paradox that arives as only one character, So then she also is in a she's dating Sailor Neptune, so Choke Mom, So it would give them an inherent sort of natural connection. And just like the sort of

supernal triad. Well, Bena's really important for everyone else, but the other two are sort of ineffable in a little in a way, so they're kind of in and out of the show as well. So it's kind of interesting in that way that they kind of like appeer and not a peer. They're there and they're not there. Sometimes the other girls think about them and they don't really know what to make of it. Some of them are partially attracted to them, some of them are kind of

repulsed in a way. And I think that also is like a coupleistic choices, like the plus and the ultra, Like are they magnetizing them in or magnetizing them away?

look at Mother Teresa. That would be a really good way to understand Hokemon because it is like a widow. This is a very contric kind of archetype, but it's someone who's kind of outside of society, outside of convention, but they have a role. You could say they're sort of like a vessel for greater wisdom, hopefully like transcendental wisdom. You could say, like Mother Teresa's whole thing was like to take suffering and to sort of like make grace

out of it. Now, in the tontric way to understand the sephra, I would say that this produces a lot of confusion for people. It tends to be very outside. Oh, I'm outside the flesh, so I am truly the beast, but you're not. You're not quite outside of form. So if you get stuck there, you're still getting stuck in a particular kind of ego. But it is considered to

be the ineffable expression of wisdom. So more European systems like would prefer a masculine sort of expression of that, so you often hear about that, but in uh Dharma and Eastern wisdom systems, they prefer wisdom is always a female always always. Wisdom is pretty much synonymous with like a feminine element. So I would say that there's both, or you could say the tontric way is that they're reconciled because she's a widow, so she she did have a husband, but he's you know, peace out.

fuff embullshit chokema. Uh oh, this is what I was thinking interesting about the ego because like even in Chokema, I yeah, I'll read, I'll read what I have and make maybe the level of uh, well, you know what, I probably lost what I was looking at with chokem. It's like almost like you kind of start to what I was reading and how I looked at it too.

You almost start to indifferent yourself from uh, from the source again, Like I would even think that's maybe even because white Janus is there, like whatever or the experiences face to face with God is that it does say in Chokema from you know, multiple people's things, like that's when you start to like separate yourself from the experience, I guess, or separate yourself from the ol to make yourself different from everything else. And that I could see

that being the ego. And like I've even mentioned in my experience whenever I've crossed the abyss, if that's what's really happening anytime I started thinking of myself, it ends when I start wondering where I am or what I am or where you know, what's going on. As soon as I really start thinking about I guess whatever, it's over. And I do think that's because I'm separating myself from the experience of though I'm not in it, I'm like trying to look at it from outside.

I always thought of it as silver tinseling. So but I also agree that it can be understood and sort of the like Nick was talking about the diffusive expression of light through crystal, Well, if you go down to Hope, Ma, you're not in crystal anymore. You're in smoke or in flocks. So maybe you can say that you're like a humulus cloud, like almost pristine, pure white cloud as far as you can see, and then the cloud kind of pushes over

the sun. It expresses outwards and there's kind of like a you know when when light passes through kind of the water vapor. It's not a rainbow, but it's there's something multivariate about it. And I think that that's also part of hope ma, and I think that's a good way to understand, like is it are we separating ourselves

from the infinite sky? Because that's kind of the more traditional Jewish kabal ideas, like are we separating ourselves from God's mercy or God's love or God's wisdom in this particular case, or are we like a willing recipient of it?

don't know. It's like I wish I could go back to when this originally happened and see, like you know, because it's like, dude, if I was giving the choice, where the fuck SAYU stay where you are, it's much more nice about there well, or it is like I'm gonna go somewhere shitty to remember how good I got it now, Like that is that what's going on? Because I got the joke, I can go home now I'm good.

The example I always give of Rosicrucianism, Rosicutinism and Falsism, like they have a very tipherretic They always focus on the heart and the and the you know, the the sacred heart with the crown and it's flaming and it's golden, and keeps pointing to it. So he's like, prepare your heart, like with these tipperatic qualities, to prepare consciousness to go high or receive the Holy Spirit or whatever. So I

think it's like the there's a duality in that. I think that it's like people get lost in because like the experience is nothing like really how we speak about it in a way. It's like we're talking about it like this is one part of it, one part of it, one part of it. But it's for me anyway, it was a lot more. I don't know. It's like not so chronological. It was like the different experiences happen in different places. So I just think that people get confused.

And that's part of what Nick's talking about, is like this separation from source, like looking at yourself as a separate being or already embodying that high quality of source, but you're actually in the lower world, so you can't possibly be ineffable. That's one idea.

This is why I was gonna get into the orphanym is associated with with chokma, and I have often often thought the orphanym uh might actually be your optic nerve, because when you cut open the optic nerve and start looking at it diagonally, it does kind of like it almost looks like a pizza or even like the wheel of fortune and uh I you know again with the wheels and just something circular. And it has to do

with sight. The orphanim's got eyes all over it. I just have wondered about that, and it's just you know, at that point, is that like if you want to start seeing what's going on with your brain and your eye.

I guess at that point, like electricity or you know, light, depending on which way you're seeing it, you know, go on in your your brain if you're looking at it, I guess from like your brain out to your eyes or from your eyes into your brain, you will see I guess, like electricity or a light that then is starting to be pushed into the optic nerve and actually being condensed and like kind of like being separate from everything.

That was just that's a little bit much. But I have wondered, like if you want to start getting into the physiology part of it, which again, I think just like the trivium or you know whatever, like we were saying before, how there's like so many different layers to ocult symbolism. I just think this is one of the parts.

But that's just a very minute example, like a very minute way to discuss the same things like the same there's planetary implications, planetary relationships with the organs. Then we can say they're okay, they are a suffaratic also implications or relationships. So I think it's all like exactly what

you're saying. I think that the biology layer is a really interesting layer because I I when you were saying that the sort of electricity or the lightning around the gray matter, there's something there, I think for me, yeah, because.

it's a male and female. And I do think that could even be showing you the whole brain and everything be informed.

this is one of those things. It's like a dualism, and so everything in that sufferer reinforces this idea of dualities, and it's it's hard maybe sufferer to reconcile as well. And I've heard other people talk about this, and maybe this is why it's such a fascination for like contemporary especially like left hand path ocultists, because it's they find

it so impenetrable. But I think it's just you just have to say, this is just the subconscious layer and it's expressing itself in the fucked up ways that I think of the world, not necessarily how they are. And once you kind of can say that, you can kind of be like, Okay, it's not and not everything is how I imagine it to be.

just like, I'm just gonna stick with the ten. I have looked into it and obviously it's in books, but

I've never paid it as much mine. I'm thinking, well, again, I haven't paid it as much attention as every other sphere put it that way, I'm thinking maybe, even though it's kind of out of the supernal tryad, maybe next episode we will actually cover Banah and Doth even though you know what I'm saying, to make up for two spheres in that episode instead of one, So maybe we could do that in the next show we'll cover Actually I agree.

words that you may or may not fully understand. But then once you're doing the bana sort of delineation of events, you're kind of putting it into a grammatical structure and order, and you're being intentional in your will. So that's very also magical. So that's why, like I know, Nick likes the sehra, I like the sephra. Bana is really so important, but it also has a relationship with Doth. So I agree with you, Nick, but I agree it doesn't You're fine.

People are fine with the ten. You're interested in Kenneth Grant and like, you know, playing around with Doth. Doth is all that I was there. So you're it's not going anywhere, is what I'm saying. So if you don't particularly focus on it, it's fine. You're gonna eventually come to that place hopefully.

just keep it going. Another thing I wanted to say, not to get off of this, to get back a little bit, back to Chokmah again, like even when I brought up the Wheel of Fortune, there's no planet associated with Chokema, but the zodiac is. Again, it's just another whale with lines through it. Again, I was saying, if you if you cut the optic nerve down, like you know, like your slicing like a that's a salami stick. You gotta tell that way. It does look like it even

has like the thick layer around. It's like, yo, that's the crust of a pizza like or like those flowers. It's a lot on that Golden Dorn deck. My opinion, there is tons and tons of optic nerve symbolism on there. It's like these circular things that almost kind of look like flowers, and they have this thick outer edge. I've shown it plenty of times on like an architecture like freemasonry, especially Catholic churches have that shit all over the place. I do think it might actually be the you know,

the optic nerve. So again I'm just saying, you know, relating the whole zodiac. I wonder again with like wheale of fortune type symbolism, and I know wheal fortune would probably go around Chess said, but I mean, you know that's right above that it's chokemo you already.

suffra because it's infinite in its expanse. Kind of you can double the four every time. That's kind of the idea. And so but once you get into Hokmah, you kind of are more. You're more centered, you're more you've lived your life. You've been like a master baster or a student or whatever for many decades, and so you've kind

of come into this wi you're a wisened elder. So that's also like a good archetype sort of to understand it as well, and it gives you kind of I've always likened it to the Desert Fathers, so nix't talking about Catholicism, So like I think of that Hokmah is very like the Desert Fathers. It's like the guys in hemp Linen robes often gray, right, they're out in the desert and they're kind of meditating and having these sufferotic experiences and trying to make sense of it. And they're

also they're not eating very much. It's like honey and locusts and like, you know whatever. And so it is like the ultimate asceticism in a way. And it's kind of like the ultimate You're you're seeking for duality, you're seeking for unity, but you're doing it in the most dualistic sort of separating yourself from your physical body. You're trying to like annihilate the self almost.

I'm saying? That sound like weird're even it's if you look at what an optic nerve looks like it looks like a flascid hanging dick. I'm not trying to make up for perverted shit, but in my opinion, that is actually phallic symbolism. Is because actually I do think is possibly showing the optic nerve, and or it even looks like a light switch just hanging down. Now you want to flip that shit on, you know, tickle that skull

at Hoyz fancy she's turned out all the time. You'll get what the fuck you want.

And I do think they're actually they're telling you that after they pump your thumb fucking twelve times and there's twelve cranial nerves and one of them's the optic nerve in front of a fucking tent that looks just like it. So it's just like, you know, I do think there's

something to that. Yeah, And the whole thing I mean, taking it if you want to, yeah, if you want to look at the Gnostic mass and it can be taken, is that the priest is just trying to turn on or get the priestess off, but he's not using his dick. You know. You just thought to wonder, like, is there actually symbolism behind some of this sexual stuff, because if, in my opinion, one of the best ways to hide shit is make it sexual and make it look satanic.

obscure it. Which is interesting because that is also the kleepa of Saturn. People love that, like the you know Saturn moon matrix, like the oh the you know, black Cubas Saturn stuff. Well, but interestingly, to occult something is the kleepup of Saturn. Actually, Saturn is to come into understanding or been a is the proper way is to come into understanding rather than things before people. However, that doesn't mean that you get to reveal all secrets, of course,

but I think that's about what Hokma is. It's a little trickstere like. That's how they would kind of look at it. In contra is the or even in the normy kind of Hinduism, they would say it's like the sleeping God, the supernal God. He exists on the world ocean. He's dreaming of his life in the real world. But he's not really God God, He's he's dreaming. So his sort of soul, if you want to call it, that takes birth into the world of form, and so he doesn't want that to end. He loves the dream, he

loves the leela, and so he hates nothing else. He hates nothing else than to be sort of either you could say killed quote unquote or sort of awakened.

And he's non generative, so you know, it fits a lot of these sort of just archetypically, like what Nick was saying before, like magic is really about archetypes. It's not about people get lost on like the god names and they're like, oh, I must do this alter to this goetic or this deity or this thing. But really those are just archetypal sort of layers or vessels that contain deeper ideas, just like the sex stuff and so or the satanic stuff like that's also like a perfectly

synonymous way, like sexual and satanic. Like ye, it's like a perfect way to say it. Yeah, people do dumb shit because they they want to trip up other people. That's a real thing, and then also they want to sort of guard it against people actually accessing what is deeper knowledge. So dumb people would see the sort of external presentation and be like, this is what I have

to do. And I agree that sometimes the magical or sepharodic experiences can be very confusing, not necessarily confusing in like a dark way or a bad way, but sometimes we don't know is like fully understand the things that we see. And so I understand why people start to obsess about like clipolithic things or darkness or the carnal ground or the as we did nick the series with

the ICP guys. Yea, you know they have the dark Carnival and it's like all the it's a bit it's like hyper focused on the dumisms denizens excuse me of the carnoground. There's no kind of luminosity at the end, and so sometimes people get stuck in that kind of like you could say, like the actual density, like the actual like I feel like this is what something is instead of being you don't have to be a hermeticist.

But it's a maybe an interesting way to think of it as like you want to travel like the word rather than stay.

the fuck I'm talking about because it's so old. But there was like a time I'm not gonna mention names where somebody was getting harassed by not harassed, but they were culled this we're kind of like shit talken somebody that I know in the community, and one of them had like literally said to him like, if it wasn't for like horrible, fucked up shit, you would have nothing to pedal your listeners, Like you actually pimp like horrible

shit that you sell to your listeners. And I didn't really I really didn't get it then because I was just like, oh, fuck that guy, because I really don't like him because I think he pushes like fake UFO alien shit. But like I said, like I guess from going through my own growing pains and wanting to change, we wanted to put the show or just in a MORETZ direction set direction. I started realizing, like not so

much myself, but other people. I was like, you know, it was like the total misunderstanding of a lot of this shit is the only thing you have to offer, and all you're doing is like selling hate, fear and putting sick images into people's minds.

describe its. People who try and limit you and like you're a deeper understanding, so your deeper inquiry into wisdom science, Like wisdom science exists, so we can reference it and so we can utilize it if we, you know, if we make that decision for ourselves. It's not someone shouldn't color your opinion of it just because there have been sick people. There are sick people that do do lots of things and lots of different, varied sort of ideologies. So yeah, you know, magic is in itself is there's

nothing wrong with it. And so people who depends on how it's used, you know, trade in that it's it's unfortunate and they're doing a metaphis class. I think the negative one.

black magic in a sense. But when you're pumping people with fear and hate, like yo, I hate to say it, like you're basically just fucking you listen to Satan, person's making you hate shit and fear shit. What the fucked man?

chicks man to try to get down in pants. She fucking wants you. She'll come to you if you gotta talk shit about that. Motherfucker and try to persuade her you were a fucking piece of shit, jack shit, you ain't got nothing. And there's a lot of people that are doing that recently, and it's just it's getting silly. It's getting extremely fucking ignorant and silly. That's just my sorry.

I I had a little rantic because it's just like a lot I see a lot of it recently, and it's just fucking disgusting at this point.

It's a lot of weird shit going on out there recently, all right, that's facts at least is funny, uh, All right, facts again, preach all right, I have enough of that, but uh uh chin, I feel like there's probably still more we could talk about. But chokemar. I don't know if you maybe, well I don't because I don't want to cram another five minutes or three minutes in. Uh maybe we could continue a little bit more on CHOKEM and hopefully get behind Yeah again, like I was saying, one,

I started late. Yeah, unfortunately. I mean we were met on time. It's just that we we caught up and bullshited for about a half hour and you know whatever. Uh yeah, I kind of realized. I was like, shit, we're kind of cutting it clothes for like three spheres because in my opinion, I mean they are not that all of them aren't worth talking about a lot, but I just feel like the pernal try it is like a little bit more to get into. So yeah, So unfortunately we will continue choke Ma and then Bean and

hopefully doth in the next one. Everybody, but uh jin, thank you very much. I had a had a bank. I'm be totally honest with you. I was nervous about doing it because it was just me and you. I've been so accustomed to like five people on the screen, and I was like, what am I gonna do when I have to take a piss or have the air condition it gets too cold, you know, gold So yeah, I'm sitting here dying to take a piss. Just let

everybody know. Uh yo, this really turned out great, and I'm very in some ways, I'm happy we didn't get too far because I actually would like to continue. So yeah. Yeah, and the listeners, the people who caught it, I mean, they were loving it, so you know, the least, and a bunch of other people, even saying Vanessa, a couple of the people that love the conversation. So uh yeah, I appreciate you coming on, and I really really enjoyed

the chat. And not to knock all the people on the show, but when it comes to cabalistic stuff, you're really one of the only few people I can rock with, So not knocking other people, it's just I think all the people on the show would even say that me and you were into the cabal away more than them. So I appreciate being able to have this conversation with you because I could talk Abala for fucking days and days and days.

So I highly suggest if you want to get into some deep thinking and ponder about how the fuck did I come into the flesh and how do I have an experience with God? Maybe looking into the kabbala might be something you look into. Again. Thank you Jim again talking about the kabala I love it and always loved

chopping it up with you. Yeah, so I think if we stick to it August eighth, because we picked the seventeenth for today, I mean, let's just be real, it's, you know, a cult number, so we're like, fucky, let's go, let's do it on seven seventeen. I think we might go for August eighth for the next one, so stay tuned on eight eight, might come back and continue more

kabbala Um and then until the next one. Oh real quick, just to plug it and then pie in about fifteen twenty minutes, which is another reason why I'm cutting it short. We'll be going live on hell Lissa's channel. Check that out. We'll be going live soon. If you happen to have any emails you think you can type up real quick and send them out, send them over. We'll read them. But yeah, check that out. And again, everybody, thank you for jumping in. Really great feedback. I really loved it,

and even Leaves of Grass was nice today. Sometimes I've noticed her kind of talk shit. She was actually enjoying it, so I appreciate your nice comments. This time leaves the grass. Uh So that's till the next one. Everybody, be well.