You see, something's going to happen.
What's going to happen?
What?
Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode will be continuing on the Kabala Talk that me and Frida Jin the Ninja we're doing.
UH started off already.
With Uh Catherine Chokla, and we will be continuing today with Donna and doth and we will be we will be adding somebody else at the show, hopefully even continuing the series with us.
We got mat with us uh before we get to mad Jin.
Let everybody know, just in case they don't know who you are already where they can find all your amazing work.
Sure well, thank you boss, Thank you, mister Andy three. And then of course I have I'm with Matt. So I'm so excited because Matt is a content creator and also co hosts with me in the Gray Lodge, and he also runs the Gray Lodge YouTube channel, and so he's been an incredible person to get to know and
I'm really lucky. So I just want to say that first of all, but if people want to follow me, they can actually listen to Matt and I on the latest episode of Threshold Saints, episode sixty five, which is Love and K pop, which is about Matt's idea, which is pop Cabala. So using anime, video games, and pop culture just generally music as a kind of hermeneutic to understand Cabala. So this is also something that I do on my show. I call it something a little different,
but I do. I told Matt that I was sealing pop Cabala, so I will. And so we also have a Gray Lodge space tonight, a data record. It's Friday, August eighth, and so if you're interested in hearing Matt and I and Solar Manty the Branch Branch, Joseph Reid and Mike, if you're interested in hearing the seven of us discourse about cabala, about meta politics, about meta magic, then that is the place for you. So come follow us both on Twitter and you'll see the spaces. And thank you guys so much.
No, thank you for joining us. I really appreciate it.
And uh, first time on the show, and we will have to get them on probably just separ lated, you know, kick it with us and talk some ship.
But we got Matt. So, Matt, how do you say your last name again?
More?
I don't want to fuck it up. It already did.
Yeah you can say moat it would be Moda, but yeah, pretty much thinking.
And you're you're over in Italy right now.
Right, yes, speaking from that is awesome.
I'm hoping to be going there eventually soon myself. That is great stuff. Nice, nice, good for you. Please let everybody know what your deal is, you know what your thing is, where they can find you, you know, get a little introduction.
Don't worry about spending too much line.
First of all, thanks a lot Nick for calling and Gin as well for the bridge. So very healthy to be here, sell some shows before and very cool stuff. So I'm at Mora, you know, talk about Kabbala, astrology, tyrot, numerology, all the stuff related. You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, YouTube always at met Mora nineteen and there's also my website Kabala dot com. It's written a little bit differently,
but we're probably going to show here afterwards. And yeah, I mean talk about a bunch of crazy stuff, but that's what I like. So if you like that as well, make sure to follow me there.
Awesome, awesome, And yeah, I mean obviously is that you're on here, you're big into the Cabala.
I would assume right.
Yeah, exactly, that's what I was initiated in, and the one that it's like the foundation for all the other systems. So when I talk about astrology, he talking about astrology with lens.
Yes, yes, I would have to say it's probably maybe Jan could even like verify more than I could, because he probably sees how I look at it. But and I'm just used to looking at it like this and don't even realize it. I think probably the same thing with me. I think I tend to just always look at something how it fits on the cabala or the harmatic cabala.
I don't think I can. To me, it just makes the most sense to do it like that.
Yeah, exactly, it's the same.
How long?
Uh?
How old are you? If you don't mind me asking?
Yeah, I mean the face doesn't doesn't make it clear.
But three right now?
Holy shit, I did think you were young.
He's our baby brother in the launch. I always feel like responsibility. I can never, you know, say anything too wilder.
You just the next TikTok TikTok generation.
Yeah. I don't know if he was ready ready yet to come on deal with me.
Fuck, it's just this character you know.
Yeah, So who were you, like twelve when you got into this ship.
So you know it's actually I'm in itly right now. But I'm from Brazil, So in Brazil we have a lot of.
Oh yeah, that place is fucking loaded with ship.
Yeah exactly.
So I'll say my family helped a lot in the sense of letting me know this kind of stuff. So I was skeptic at first, not about Cabala necessarily, but like spiritually spirituality in general, right, but my family kind of made it easier for me to double along. I'll say fifteen years when I was when I started actually studying, like okay, let me try and see this without this skepticism, and I was. I got initiated I think three years
ago in this Cabala system that I use. So before I was studying by myself, but then I got a proper master and so on and so on, and then it's a a game changer. Really, So I'll say like three years initiated practicing this system that I'm using, but it's studying since fifteen years old, so eight eight years now, yeah, eight nine years.
And you said I guess, like I mean, it was just like I guess.
Family or friends were kind of like, we're into this already, and that's where you were kind of influenced by.
Did you find it like yourself?
Yeah, so my family was very big into like spiritualism or spiritism sorry, spiritism in Brazil, which is big there. So there's like very very minute different branches and one or other things that are kind of related, you know, because in Brazil and there's a lot of mixture. There's like Japanese stuff with like African stuff with native stuff with like Christian stuff is like everything, you know, mixed. So I'd say they gave me some kind of way
to start because I would hear the stories. So then I would be curtzy, you know, what the fuck are they talking about? You know, some past life for some person that already died, but somehow they're interacting with them, Like what.
The fuck is do?
I know?
But I would always be skeptical At first. I was like, no, you know what are you talking about? Because I wouldn't have the experiences. But yeah, at least being in Brazil gave me a lot of possibilities to search for this. Like it's very people talk about it. It's kind of common, like even people which are like very strict you know, Catholic or Christians day. They will talk about it, so you'll hear about it. It's not gonna be very foreign.
I feel like in Italy or let's say European in general, now since I came, it's it's like very different people are more used to the traditional things, that is, the ones that I interacted with. I don't know, like maybe I'm not in the correct groups, but it feels like it's harder to talk about these things or they are coming up to some ideas which we are talking about in Brazil, like for so long already. The environment definitely.
Helped, Yeah, I think I yeah, Brazil trees. Honestly, I think if anybody to start a cult, just go to Brazil.
Yeah, exactly, definitely make it. If you got the money to, you know, go over to Brazil. You got it.
Man.
It's a double edged story because there's a lot of serious people there and doing like good mercy. There's a lot of then like I called him, schizoterism, you know, like there's a lot of skitz.
Have you real quick, and then we'll get into the actual topics like what we're going to talk about. If you don't want Matt. Have you ever heard of the Valley of the Dawn. It's a it's a cult out in Brazil.
Let me see.
Yeah yeah maybe yeah, Value of the Value of the Dawn. There is like a name for.
Yeah, okay, with the thing.
There in Brazil.
There's a lot of crazy been talking about covered.
That the last three years. Maybe it will happen.
Yeah.
There was a guy I think like in English would be Joan of God or something like that, like he used to like Oprah.
Yeah, yeah, tell anybody wants to start a weird stuff, Yeah, you can make it.
Okay, I'm not being shady, But there is something funny about this is that a lot of modern a lot of guests that we've had, that you've had on this show probably have been there at are modern magicians. They're really into fucking Kimbanda. This is something Madden and I have talked about, like very extensively for like a year almost is like this interest in like modern Kimbanda and what it means for modern magic in general, and like
why why in particular Kimbanda. I just think it's interesting And then they'll say, oh, I'm a shaman, Okay, you're a shaman, but you're also practicing kimbanda, so you're not quite a shaman.
I don't even what is that. I don't tell you.
Hand it's like left hand path usually mixture with like African.
Uh spiritual spiritual stuff.
But also like Native Native Latin American and like they always mix some stuff, but it's very like left handed.
The reason I wanted to cover that cult that I promise we'll get to do the Cabalah. They they are another ones thinking like aliens are coming, you know, usual, and so like those always just assumed like there's gotta be a scam out of somewhere and you know, or an actual real occult is somewhere that's duping people. And like I was going through like all these sites and just looking at their pictures and shit, you know, and I'm like starting to collect stuff because I was like, yeah,
I think at this point i'll cover them. You know again three years ago, still have the folder. I haven't covered them, but I was looking at this shit and like I think National Geographic even did something on them.
So like these had good quality pictures and there was one that I was like it was like showing like it's some Egyptian set up, and like in the middle of it was like it was like a cut open you could walk in, and then there's like this drape that's hanging from the ceiling and it looks like this like circular cushioned.
Seat in the middle of it.
But it just looks like that's kind of like in the background, just hanging out there. I don't know what it was, and it was probably stone to some shit. And I was like, looking at the picture, I was like, Yo, it looks like this somebody in there, and I assumed that thing open and I'm like, yo, there's a motherfucker in there with the Astra margentum robe on.
I was like, oh, here we go. Now I know what the fuck is going on.
That's why everything looks like it's golden dawn and Oto style over there.
Makes sense now I know who's making money.
Yeah, I cannot speak for those guys. I don't I didn't double that much on them. But there is definitely a lot of like siops right now there in Brazil, like a lot of stuff they cook there because there's also a lot of people in there open to this, so they'll test is like test grounds you know, for the special like especially also with the you know, uh because in Brazil if.
It works, yeah, we'll bring it over to America.
Yeah, I Auska's sleep of in Brazil, so you can actually use it in like uh ritualistic or spiritual setting and also much rooms. So again it's very easy to like start something and then you put people into this kind of stuff and don't knows what comes from there, you know, so you've got our ready to know how to filter out the I'll say anywhere.
But they're especially like.
All right, so now we're gonna get into it. But nah uh yeah, that is the third the third sep third sphere on the tree, and it would be like on the top of the top of the pillar of severity. Some people look at that. It would be the left hand side. Some people would say that's you know, the feminine part of the tree. I'm just gonna read off like some of the kind of basic associations with it, and then we'll kind of get into I guess, you know,
freestyle on our experience, our idea of it. If any of you want to interrupt me, please just interrupt me as I'm going through it. You know, a lot of these I had mentioned it last time. They have associations with it with Benigh again. That will be the third sphere of the black sphere on the top of the left pillar, and the magical image for that would be considered a mature woman or a matron.
I think jen Pie Matt would even agree with me.
I think sometimes you'll get a little bit more of a mature woman, maybe a little bit like older or maybe the old hag might go there. Sometimes the divine name would be Jehovah Elohim. The archangel would be Zafkiel, which is governing the Ralim with the thrones, the planetary you know. Thing that would go along with it would
be Saturn. I think everybody will not everybody may know that, but yeah, that's where Sading goes spiritual experience, the vision of sorrow, and then the virtue is silence, but the vice is avarice. And if people don't know what avarice means, it's basically just being like a sloth or not doing anything. Symbols and colors, you could have a chalice, vesica, pisces. It's also considered the outer robe of concealment. Chokla is
considered the inner robe of concealment. Crimson would go with this, Black would go with this, Brown would go with this, uh, gray and pink through the full world. The Taro threes would go with that cosmic Uh what else? Uh Yeah, that's basically kind of just I wanted to just get that in there because a lot of that stuff I think will show up as like symbology.
Uh you'll see it in art possibly taro and stuff like that.
So uh but yeah, I guess if you don't mind, jen if I put you on the spot for you, like I guess through your workings and experience with the Kabbala, how do you kind of like view I guess be Na in a sense.
I always this is a rhyme I always do because I find it very mnemonic, like a way to remember things. Is time is always contained in your mind, but it really starts at the nah, Like the greatest conception of time is really there. So it is really the understanding of cosmic time rather than our individual experience of time, which is more ysotic. So there's that's again, to bring that back from last night. It's the Saturn moon matrix. It's like the it's the through their three worlds of
conceptions of time. Right, there's the sun and moon, which is a second like a tertiary, which would be like Gebra and Hesseid, sort of tipherotic time. Then you would have individualized time or phenomenological time. Even you could say that's very asotic. But then you have the more intellectualized expansion or maybe you're coming to that if you're saying, oh, I'm Adam Kadmon, or I'm the adamante Man or I'm Enoch, and so my at my peak of who I am,
i am maybe infused with cosmic time. So maybe that's kind of a way that Saturn gets to be the king of at least least some of the world's Like everybody says, oh Saturn, black cub matrix, that's like the you know, the evil, the evil time king. But in a way, as we always talk about, Saturn is just an outer density name. It's just a planet. So it's not what we're essentially referring to in the Sephra, but
it definitely it tells you a story. It's it says like there are elements of this, they're just bringing things in. So in Joe Tish, Saturn is the lord of Karma Saturn. Praise to Mahakala, the king of Time as a much higher god. Mahakala, Praise to Maha Kali who is his consort or his wife. And I even put a pick diagnested a picture in that. You don't have to bring it up, Nick, but I'm just saying it's there if you want it.
Yeah, I wasn't sure who pulled that up, Sar.
No, that's okay, and so it so Nex's right. So there is the idea that she can. So I could have chosen an image with Collie by and I maybe will for later. I'll find one when I'm not going. But this is them together. So this is a more contract conception of Benna really is that it's really in because you see even the fire, the fire is rising beneath them. The carnal fire from Geverra and Saturn is sort of tempered by Mars in many ways, especially in
Vida astrology. Mars is the sort of protective force that people often pray to. Mars or martial deities. Hanuman the Monkey King, or for Indians they think of him as the Monkey King. He's not quite the same, but they pray to him for kind of protecting them against Shanning or Saturn, because he is the power of Mars in its fullness. So you can see there's like a fire
of effulgence coming up from the burning ground. So the earth Bna is very much related to the earth, like it's really true earth almost you could say, like a true that's purified, and that's even what the fire is doing. So it's a solid ground. But with the concert there, it's really interesting. If you say the husband or the male archetype is time, then the female concert has to
be Kully the destruction of time. So when they're together, it's a constant sort of dialectical arrangement of coming and going, matter densifying and then breaking up. It's kind of like the I think of it all as layers of consciousness. So when we sort of come across a new idea and then we explore that new idea and then we say, okay, I don't need to be contained in that, and we kind of destroy it, there's kind of the apocalypse of revelation,
and so that's what I personally. So this is just me ginriffing, but those are things that I associate, particularly with Bana and text on paper. That's a very important allegory I've used before, and I think that a lot of misunderstanding of Banah. I'm using that word very specifically, but a lot of misunderstanding arises in what Saturn and Bana is. It's really the text on the page, the black text, which can also appear flashing purple very interesting,
can also appear red in candle light. Bright black has many interesting qualities, especially on a white vellum page. So the text is really the codified thing. So the text can also be said to be like the Bible or the law or things of that nature. Now we don't interact with those texts specifically at Bana. Like we've talked about in the last episode. I said, has lawyers in particular embody has said really well, because they pull at
the reins of like the fixed conceptions of Saturn. Sorry, guys, you guys, go ahead, just give me one second.
One thing I did want to say with the fire, you know, the thing I was thinking about that with Gouboro being underneath the Saturn on the left hand side of the tree, I often do think that could be even like almost like alchemical where you're getting the black purification by fire you even get like a lot of old the alchemists that I've covered on the show or occultists that go on about this purification of the soul
through fire. So I you know, again, just you burn something down to soot, I mean, it's gonna be black. So I do wonder about like the whole red and black, you know, if that's that plays into each.
Other absolutely, especially when you note like the sounds for color theory, blue is really black when you're at this, like for this image, this is really black, Like this is Collie or Croda or Krishna, all words to describe block, but it's really blue black. It's really the color of lapis lazuli. That's also a sky blue color.
That's what the ceiling of the oto is a blue black with the white stars. And I know I've mentioned this before, whatever, I'm just going to say it again. The Sistine Chapel wherever Michaelangelo did that shit, uh before he painted that on, then it had the same ceiling that the Oto uses, blue black ceiling and white stars.
I mean you can say, Nick that that's the whole lesson of Kabbala, is that the differentiation of like the dark sky the night sky with the clear blue sky, because both of those things are really clear, the turquoise color of Hessaid as well as the Lapislazuli color of Bina.
So I think that there is a way to sort of come to understanding of what the natures of things are just because they appear as something, which is a very Bana way to sort of be in misunderstanding is to fear maybe the thing that appears before you, just like Collie on the carnal ground, like all the demons, all the ghosts, all the vitalis, all the pretas, they're all surrounding her, and so she has to rise up on the corpse fire and sort of like say like
I mean, actually destroy time. But time is really the perception of your mind.
Yeah, that is something that I would would definitely like to ad with Nah when it comes to time, even life and death.
Yeah, I think once you like burst into this.
Physical reality, even if it's a thought, I mean either it's gonna you know, or physical or ends up turning physical. It's you know, has an expiration date and.
Time.
I feel like I guess first I'd like to say, like the way I look at it, Beina is kind of like two different ways, or it's a door that swings both ways. You're either going into the abyss and separating your soul from the flesh. You're kind of going back before you were conceived into the flesh. I already even say a little crazy like almost back in time, or you're coming back into reality after the magical experience, or you're being berthed into here. I guess your next
go round or whatever it is. So like I see, like, fuck, where was I going with that?
Yeah?
Well, time, I see it as constructing time when you come into here. Uh, I don't know something I've even struggled with before. And then I even like when I was covering someone else, I think it was Platinus. He was even saying, like to even try to like time doesn't in his mind doesn't or the way he was explaining it doesn't apply to the abyss in his way, And like I would have to say, I guess from my experience, I don't think it is sort of even for me to try to say, I guess some all
this sort of different time. But I guess it's the removal of it or making it, you know, making it exist. I feel like like binad does does both of that again, I do think, you know, when it comes to magic, there is an actual physical death if you want to go that far. And I do think that is even represented in in being ad like.
That's why I.
Think death is actually you know, considered to go along with Saturn, and then the rebirth, in my opinion, happens in the same sphere. It's just into the spirit, it's or it's into like the mind, you know, it's not
actually like matter anymore, you know. The vision of sorrow, that's an experience and for me, I could be wrong, but like I could say, for me, the vision of sorrow was real in the sense that after I had experienced what I experienced, divisions and the experiences that I had in the Abyss obviously let me know that the way I had viewed the world prior was not correct and it's not what I thought it was. And I will be honest, there was a little bit of being
upset about that. I felt like I was lied to and like just things aren't. It's hard to explain, but to for me, it was a it was a little bit of sorrow with knowing truths that maybe I wasn't like looking for you, I don't know. Maybe that was just me being a pussy and that's not what the that's not what the experience is.
But that's how it worked for me. I did feel some sort of sorrow.
I would even say I felt sorrow from being separated from that experience again, you know, of having that experience and being like, what the fuck? Why am I stuck here? If that's existence? Why the fuck am I stuck in this fucking reality? So all I had that in and then anybody else can go have some.
Other shit all.
It is very interesting though, that the saturn or banaw or whatever, right, the black sphere is supposed to be the one that is contracting right or organizing or even you can say destroying when you say, when you put like Shiva in that swhere, you can say it's destroying the illusions. So it's when you come into the understanding of the situation, like what you're saying, Okay, I understood the experience that I was having. Maybe wasn't the best.
Now what do you do with it? You know, in theory, you should grow wise, you should become wiser now that you understand. But at the same time, it's also like you're it's kind of like you're almost out, so you get.
A taste of you know, do I go out out or now I.
Have to come back and you know, completely experience or whatever it is. So also regarding time, it is so we can use, for example, the Greek example of chronos time, but also there's the kitos time, right, So chronos time being the one which is ordering things, so the let's say the calendar or the hours like they counted time, thee the future that we expect, the past that already went,
and so on and so on. But then there's also kitos time, which you could say it's like the digital time, like chronos being the analog the one you count, Kitos being the digital because it's the time that it's actually the only time that exists. It's like the actual moment, the moment right now, that that when you are experiencing something and you are present there, like you when the flow in once on. And I would say that time isn't necessarily be nah because it's this kind of time.
It could be even maybe in that it's like outside right, like you're outside of the experience. Or another way to visualize it. Also it's imagine you have like for people who edit videos, or when you're watching a video, you have the whole timeline, right, but you're always watching the video at one point, but you as an outsider, you can see the whole timeline, so you could skip and come back and so and so. Again you're outside of the chronos time, but you have to interact with it,
you know. So again, it's a very interesting to visualize your life as well, when you look back at things and see.
You know what I think is probably a really good way to explain it. It just sound cheesy. It's like going from like you know, in the flesh and all of a sudden, like now I'm looking like at the orphan, how like you can almost like just see like be all over you know what I'm saying. That's what it just seemed like to me. I was like that was a you know, one from one extreme to the next. I'm saying, just from this point of view to like fucking everything everywhere once, it was just weird.
Exactly you need.
And that's the thing as well about me now, which is I'm guessing you guys already did an episode on Homan, but it would be like the thing was now expanded, right the light was reflected. So now you have everything going on in the chaos, everything going on. But if you only have that, then you cannot have anything like you cannot have let's say a particle, a thing that to hold on to. So Bna comes to again aggregate.
It's like the I think it's like the Zin, which is like the contractor to zoom, I think expands and zing is the contractor. I don't remember exactly the name in Hebrew, but that's idea, like you're contracting the chaos so that you can have an experience. So like to me, that's what the left column is mostly about, the savery column.
It's like contracting things again mars like being disciplined, or like the control of things again hot making things rational, like place things inside your left brain in one and the right colm the opposite. So again at dens like the beginning of the contraction, the beginning of again trying to understand something. So if you cannot like away, also, I like to explain it when you're getting down the tree.
So like the lightning path, when you need to create something again, you need to first have the idea of what you need to create the insight right the cat there. You need to be able to like visualize it and see it again the wisdom of it, because if you cannot, then well, whatever you want something, but you cannot even describe it, It's it's impossible, right and be nah, it's like the light which is homa becoming sound. So it's when again you're understanding the thing in a way that
you can actually explain it. So and that again it doesn't have to be crazy, right, Like when you're ordering food, you need to be able to explain the type of food you need you want to order, otherwise you cannot order food like such a basic thing, right. So, and it grows to to other complexities whenever you want to manage cooperations as one.
That's one of the I think you said that great man. I think that's and also neck of course, but I think you know, I think you're both right. Think it all sort of converges on this thing. It's like it's gravitational. I think that's also very much associated with bana. If you want to give it more of an astro physical sort of idea, it's like Matt said, it's the densifying factor, it's the aggregating factor, it's the conglomerting factor. It brings
things in. And that's also why like this Attornian element is led, and it's also why like there are different ideas, different colors that you can describe. Obviously Nick describes some. But I want to bring this in because I find it really interesting just intellectually, whether you believe it or not. But there is Ramic Rabbi Cordovero who spoke about last time he did write about the green flashing of Banah.
So I always found this quite interesting because in a lot of the Sufi texts they will often also talk about this in terms of like they'll I've seen images where they'll have El Kadeer. So if you're familiar with El Kadeer, he is the green man, and he's like a Sufi and he wears a green rope. He's not quite as Sube saying, I mean he is and he isn't. So it's kind of a mixture, but it's a The idea is is like when you're there, there is a
green sort of element of reflection. So you can probably understand that through you could say through nets SoC you could also say through hesse and and maybe even through different and then I think all of those things. Obviously, Matt uses a different system, so I'm not I'm not saying anything in contradiction. Of course, I see it to Matt. But I think it's an interesting thing to think about
because why it's a very specific sort of idea. Anyways, I pulled up an icon that kind of shows this, Nick, and I just want to say, like, so if you hear about this a green flashing at Bina, you can also relate it to, as I said, the sort of Bina nets SoC connection, sort of like the feminine divinity with the sort of forming formational force of the world that is Bana. But of course I like what Nick said last time, which is like every suffra has a
masculine and feminine component. There's it's it doesn't. In my opinion, it's just me. I don't think it serves anyone to be inherently dualistic in how they approach the suffra. I think that's going to color your kind of relationship with death, which is obviously in the inner density.
I would say, yeah, somebody think somebody made a question here about misunderstanding possibly being the cliff of Bina.
I would say, in a way to me it's more about coding things. So when again you when you're using the power of contract contraction to prevent the life from going outside, then you're being an agent, you know, and a coal agent, like you're trying to not get the information to be understood, therefore misunderstanding. Kind of yeah in a way, but you see the way I understand being as well. It is one of the spheres most used
for coding stuff or couding things in this reality. So like I really relate sound to be not so like music is a very potent way to control people like that. You go to like the church mass, they're like playing the music, especially like the most crazy ones which they get, you know, all the performance there in Brazil you have a lot of those, and you are again playing that music in the background the guys like talking all the things that you want to hear and so and so on.
But the same like you go to a concert, they're playing the music there to you know, change how you are feeling, how you're thinking. And the same now with even TikTok, they put like the music in your head all the time, like the same music over and over, like reprogramming you and so on, and music it's a very powerfu way to like occult stuff. Or even I saw the other couple of months ago, I think in Serbia, if I'm not being saken, there was this like protest.
There was a lot of people in the streets in this one, and they used like a super sonic whatever weapon like just made a huge sound and like it dispersed everyone, Like nobody knows knew what the fuck was going on because it was such like a huge sound. It was like high pitch or whatever, and people just were dispersed like with the easy you know, quote unquote easy like there's no guns anything, it's just the sound thing made everyone go away.
So again, it's very very powerfult.
You don't want to rip uh when you talk about the expansion of the contraction and stuff like that. That even makes me think about how I attribute the eyeballs stuff, you know, because that does happen, and that determines how much light is getting sucked in or not.
So I just wanted to throw that in there.
I think that the eye stuff that you've pioneered neck in the sense that like what modern people are talking about, I think that that's one hundred percent correlates with Bena. I think it makes sense even in the iconography you have pulled up right now. I think it looks very much like a magical experience and like an eye and things you'd see. So I'm hung there. And but also to go off with what Matt said about sound, I think this is a really interesting point. Collie is kind
of the time of silence. Like Nick will often say this, because it's very it's a hermetic kind of way to frame that same experience that everybody really has, like any magician has. But yeah, she doesn't speak because her tongue is lolling. She can't speak the primordial word. So it's kind of interesting if you think of it like that. He's not the prime creatrix, she's just the prime mover.
So that's kind of an interesting difference that Tantra sort of applies to the tree, is that Collie is not the originator of either knowledge or the sort of greater tree itself, but she's maybe exactly what Matt said, the encoder of it. And then you can also say that the klipa of Benna really is the occulting of things, occulting, particularly of both exoteric and esoteric knowledge. So institutions, any institution and university, you know, a secret fraternity of magicians
that they're all guilty of occulting the government. They all you know, it's all the practice of Kleipa making all of that.
All the big corporations, Like the CEO is not going to have like a camera at the room, but everyone is going to be watchable by the corporation, right, like the higher you go, the bigger the company. Again, it's going to be less and less transparent what exactly is going on. And also governments, Yeah, like you.
Said, absolutely absolutely and so the but there is a like we said, also it's like there's something inherently unstable about this sephra because it's not really it's not really meant to be. Uh, it's outside of the eternity that is nuts socks. It's almost it's not quite unbound from the you know, fixture, but it kind of goes according to its own rules, which has very been all like it's its own ruler. So exactly what Nick said, like you both come and go here, you come into flesh
and you come out of flesh. You can say you're stripped down to your bones. That would be a very contract way to describe it, right, like you put the body in the in the cremation fire and you strip it all the way down to the bones and then the vultures eat the rest or the crows, depending on where you are. But no, that's basically it. So I agree. It's it's like it is the prime representation of the carnal ground where we exist. You could say, but this
is also obviously consciousness. I'm not saying it necessarily real, but you could say, that's one way to think of it. But once you get greater in your understanding, you're like, oh, I can actually look at these things in different ways. I can perceive them. My view has changed. The way the angle I approach things from can be different because I'm not so locked into a discursive mode ideological mode. That's another really interesting klipa of Bena is to put
people into silos. That's also very academic, right, like, oh, this person studies, okay, so for me, I studied the tontric art. I mean basically, so that's a very limited way to look at the world. You're really in like a very fixed perception. But ben not can also help you break out of that. But people don't realize that usually because it's so much associated with Saturn and so much associated with fixed things and magnetization and all that.
But really it's a we're talking supernova. It's really processes of consciousness. And that's really where, in my opinion, real magic is.
I like that.
The magnetization, Yeah, I would even look at the left pillar alone as a magnet in the right pillar is like electricity or energy. Yes, something, you know, I did think, like you know, we're talking about, you know, kind of a doorway. You know, even sat In itself is associated with air, which is where I think, like you kind of start going into spirit, does not't matter anymore, you're
traveling through the air. And not to sound cheesy, I brought this up a while ago, and there's newer people listening, so maybe they'll they haven't heard me say it, and it's just something I swear. I just I think I might be onto something with this. You know, I have brought up Charlie Brown before when it comes to Saturn. You know, I mentioned before that brown can be a color. And he's even got a yellow shirt on, which is the color for air, and then that does look like
the Aquarius symbol across his fucking shirt. So I do question if Charlie Brown is actually really like Saduren in a sense. Yeah, And then he's got his boy on top of the red barn. Is that a bora right underneath him?
His dog.
The red the red little doghouse at the barn. But I think there's actually a lot of a cult symbolism in Jolly Room.
That sounds crazy.
Well if you interpret it, if you interpret it as like like how Matt says is pop Cabala, then absolutely then you can just see like he's using his associations. Maybe he's not even thinking of Cabala per se, even if you.
Go like Croley's New Wheat or Crowley's Chick, you know, uh, always talking about again going back to the blue and black.
He's got Lucy, you know what I'm saying, black hair, blue outfit. I don't know.
I just think there's like a lot of like again, that same symbology. This is something weird in that that's.
Just my you know. And and if you think about it.
Technically, at the bottom of the blue pillar, you know, the top of the blue the right hand side, even though it's male down at the bottom, you would have a female even though the top of it is a blue color whatever. Just I do think that might be called symbolism and Jolie frem.
No, there absolutely is. But even the way you said about like Bena and nuts sock like Matt. We'll speak more to this, I'm sure, but that's a really interesting
sort of pathworking. Ye, and it's all right. And then it's also like so has a connection to tiffer it so you would get like slight green, you would get slight gold, you would get like there are elements that you are coming up and so you can see where people are maybe getting stuck, since that is kind of Beenah's kind of quality until you choose or you kind of orient yourself to not be stuck because you need it, but you have to, like I think, be conscious of your relationship with it too.
Yeah, it's also an interesting way to meditate on what you are hiding from yourself, like especially failures. Right we tend to say, no, you know, I'm perfect, I don't have any failures in some one that's going to be like the cliff of Beina acting on you, which you can again you can rectify, you can know like shine
light on that. So that you start to work on those like that that should be the cliff I work from my perspective, like you're using it to understand how you like you can see in others, but to understand how you are using it in yourself, and then you can rectify it, like change the experience here, because indeed, like any like even any, the tree can become super complex, right if you get into for example, spheres inside of like trees inside of the spheres and like moving and
so on, because we tend to study it like fixed right, like the tree always in the same way, but maybe the aspect is going to be slightly different with time and so and so on, so it starts to get really crazy. But yeah, i'ld say that the main idea of like condensing.
Things but also destroying them.
Again, if you relate Shiva to it to be not it's gonna be your your best friend, you know, to killing all the illusions, all the illusions that you created about yourself, like the character you are right now, Like Matt MAT's a character, right, I'm not this, I am experiencing this character right now, and it has a lot of illusions, like let's say, from when I was born people would say something and then I would aggregate that
to me again. But now I can use that same energy the aggregator to you know, clear it and say no, wait a second, I don't want that anymore. That's like, let's not be fixed. I can change that. I can evolve with like your taste and so and so. Also Nick beautifully said, like the colors that you're wearing tell
a lot about where your consciousness is. And it is funny that a lot of people tend to wear black or all black or like prefer like it's a color that you see everywhere, right, even though it's if you stop to think about it's not like an natural color, right, it's not like you see black like in everyday things. You're not like in nature or whatever, but in people with things like in things we buy, there is a lot of black, like in cars, like clothing, cell phones, again,
the little black mirror. So it's every really, if you start to think about it.
There's a great comment from Nature's Path to Wholeness that I think Matt is well equipped to a handle. When you say the Kleipa of Bana, are you speaking of the that is the partner of Bana I'll just say for me, I'm not I'm speaking of it in a more traditional, maybe even a more Lurianic way, where they are ideas in the suffer of themselves. I only believe in the one tree. I don't believe in the many trees, like the tree is infinite and it's like that will
Get explains this quite well. But for me, I think that you experienced all the klipas are ready. I don't think that it serves a It doesn't serve any beginner, especially beginner, to study the kleepers in any way. You're gonna just gonna be aggregated. And you see this all the left hand path guys, they're all emo, They're all like, I'm depressed. There's I read a book. I know it's like funny, but I read a Fraternitous saturn eyebook and he was like, depression is the left hand path. And
I'm like, no, that's a you problem. That's not a left hand path problem. That's a you problem. So I think that's exactly what the kleepas are for too, to capture your consciousness in low ideas. So, like Matt saying, Banna is a supernal triad. So try and break those klipas of those lower conceptions of you have of both
the world and yourself. That's what I think too. Sorry, I didn't mean to do a sermon there, but I just want to say it's yeah, it's kleep as are It's really the the It's like the aggregates that we that we name, the vessels that we name, and whether we whether those vessels have the truth in them or not, I think is up to us to discern. But we also have to make sure that we're not worshiping husks or vessels.
Yeah.
Well, one way you can say it, it's like when you have an oyster. You have the like the oyster and the meat inside of it, right, and after you eat, like you remove the meat, you have just the husk, really just the thing left there without any life anymore. There's maybe some speckles of whatever was left there, but it's really not the thing that they wanted anymore. And when I talk about like the klif us or husks,
that's what I'm talking about. Like the light king, it filled the sphere with light, but it didn't hold all the light, so it broke and it shattered, and now you have this kind of leftovers from the thing, but it was it is part of the same thing like Jin is saying. So again, it's really in new anytime you are interacting with any of the and I would say not only the spheres, but also the paths, right if you want to get into let's say tarot and
correcting them to the paths. So in the same way, whenever you have on r kunna, you're not only using them in the light. So that's when all the you know, light workers piece and some one like that's bullshit as well. You're working with both, you know, like if you're on every really middle pillar, you've got to work with both.
That's that's how it goes.
But you rectify the bat the quote unquote bat or shadow, you integrate, and you use the light like you use get both of them, all.
Of them exactly. I want to just sucking that what Matt said. It's not about going to the extreme opposite of the right hand pillar either. It's really at least for how the Gray Lodge and just knee Jin personally approaches Kabala. I'm a middle path person. I also practice Buddhism obviously, so we're a middle path religion. So this is like something that's very very very important to us. But I also see that it's metaphysically, metaphysically very potent.
Now it doesn't have the same necessarily the qualities, but as we discussed in the Lost episode with Nick and Ice, like there is everything and Oakma has all the potential. So you know, there's just because it doesn't seem maybe as metaphysically potent to draw from other sufferer or to balance yourself out or to rectify it. Actually is it just it takes a little longer and it's a lot harder.
M Something I did want to add too. When I've had my experience. You know, I've said that I've gone kind of death. I don't hear anything. Well, of course the abyss. So I have wondered if that has something to do with the silence.
What else did I want to say?
You could say that silence was like, for example, one way to interpret it would be even in the eyeindsoft, like you're getting into you're getting already outside.
Of the tree and to the to the endless right, and.
Some i'ld say mostly left hand path workers would say that's the end right, like you end there in the whenever you die, you go to the void and whatever, you don't have anything anymore. Sure you can in there, but there's still the ein right, you don't need to to get that far. But indeed, like if you if you remove all the illusions, that's the question, if you remove everything that are that is an illusion, what's left?
Like who's the real you? You know, if if your character here like Matt nick Gin whatever was something built from its environment, family, anything, and you start removing that, you start tring to say, okay that that was just like a mini ai mini character programmed. Then okay, what's left? You know, what's the essence? Really the same with the kliff As were built out of the tree. You know when they start doing some associations and one.
Right, that's a klipa. That's a great point, Matt, is that even us to give attributions to the suffra it. Like we said the last time, it should be always be quality less. Like whether it's lapisla ua or turquoise, it's still clear. So if we can get our consciousness to recognize that at all times, then that's really the potent sort of element of the tree.
Well, uh, was there anything else you wanted to say about. You know, maybe we'll move on.
Oh, I just wanted to throw this out there, that there are some interesting Vedic astrological associations. There is an amethyst is sometimes given as a remedy for Saturn or Shawnee, also sapphire, blue sapphire. I always thought this was really interesting. I brought it also many years ago with you Nick on our Tantra Ancobala series, but and you seemed really interested in it. Is that blue sapphire is actually the planetary It's considered the highest planetary stone of Saturn in
Vedic astrology, and so it's a little different. You can see that they're much more oriented to that blue or color rather than a pure pitch black. So I always thought that was really interesting. And also like the what we were talking about, especially what you talked about, Nick, was that kind of constrictive and destructive mode that is that path between Hope, Ma and Benna. It's a path of fire and earth and air obviously arises through that interaction. So it's it's it's very interesting.
Thank you, Uh, Matt, is there anything that you wanted to add?
I think, uh, thank you both.
You know again, I think an overall theme is a you know, time, death and stuff like that. All right, So yeah, now when I go into I'm going to cover death, and like I had said, you know, I really didn't get much into even really acknowledging that street until after I had magical experience. The way I'll be, you know, kind of giving these associations is that of
Gareth Knight's book, Practical Guide to Cabalistic Symbolism. His book has the spheres and the pats in it, and it's it was probably my favorite Kabbala book out of all the.
Ones I've read. So I just figured i'd pull his you know stuff that he has for the associations.
I guess, you know, the Hebrew meeting knowledge. Well, that's kind of like, you know, I think, what's the names for the sphere? It's you know, considered invisible or unnumbered. He hasn't hear. The magical image would be Janus, the divine name. I think he leaves it open, but some people have used jah hevad Heyliam that kind of like, I don't know, I think that's usually ready. There's no
archangel that he doesn't attribute anything to that. The colors he attributes to it would be lavender, silver gray, pure violet gray flecked with yellow. The virtue would be in personal justice, the capacity to act without ego, eat with the ego and bias, vices, doubt, apathy and nurture, cowardice, pride, vision, vision across the abyss Mundane correspondence.
Knights favor Serious. So that's interesting. They he's using, I guess serious as the fixed star.
Wonderf won. If Mario does that, that's interesting. Keith symbol could be prism, an empty room, a condemned cell, sacred mountaintop, grain of corn, and the Yeah, that's about it for the associations that I have. I don't know if maybe a gin. I know you do go on about Doth a lot and I put you on the spot now, But like I guess what would be your if you want to take it away with your experience with Doth.
Like you said, Nick, I think you said it the best, and you said it first, like I'm not going to take that from you, but you said it. You only became more interested in it after you add magical experiences. So this was really interesting to me When you first said that. I can't remember exactly when, but that's exactly my experience as well, it seemed like almost impossible to get to place. Just reading about it intellectually, it didn't seem and I think it's actually supposed to be like that.
I think it's actually supposed to be a threshold. Obviously that's part of the name of my show. So I do think that Doth is a threshold, and I think it is. You don't need to worry about it so much, like I have a contour of what it is, but be flexible, because I think a lot of magicians, like I like Kenneth Grant, and I like mom Zone, and it's very interesting to me all that, but I think they get very fixed on what these kinds of places
or what these things are. And it's also about, like we've talked about many times, it's about like the meta myth of other magicians telling you, oh, when you're climbing the tree, you're going to experience you're going to see machineows. Like to bring up Brogan, you tell people you're going to see machineows, they're more inclined to see machineows. That's just the reality you're suggestive, right, So Kenneth Grant really places this idea of like a very fixed kind of
like you know, I often joke about this. I won't use the specific language that I do, but a kind of we'll say hermaphroditic, feminine ish kind of quibel goddess thing. And I don't necessarily agree with that. I'm not saying that that's not through in some ways, but I think that I wouldn't. I never used that container to describe it. And I think it's actually a very masculine sephra. That's
how Buddhist would understand it. It'd be a very masculine sepher And there's actually a really interesting named Manjusri and Manjutrie is the Bodhisappa of nondual nosis. So this is also how Doth is sometimes translated ass So I just think, well, isn't that interesting. Maybe the sort of idea of Doth is nondual in its core, it's like beyond death and it's beyond time, and it's also beyond the conceptualization of our minds, and then what is left, well there's smoke.
So I think that's a lot of sort of that experience, and I think even the colors really spoke to that when Nick went through them.
Yeah, that is very it's a very interesting sphere. Like the way I understand it also from experiences is it's basically after light, so you have again farmless thearity right became light at Hofman Goth compressed and that's the compression, the the contraction. Here it gets expanded again, so it's like the portal again between the three at the top and all the rest. So another way also you can see it in that's the way I risk on Kabbala. It is like connecting other cultures. You can see it
in the and the ying yang. Actually the way I understand it, you can see like as the duality itself, so the black part of the ying yang, which is the ying in this case would be the bina kind of going again in the this portal towards all the other things. And the way they explain it also is very interesting because they say from like the tall the towel comes the ying yang or something like that. From the towel comes to yang, the yang comes the ying and so on, like it's just tryad and then from
it comes all the like ten thousand things. So again from Benig it's everything is it's berthed and one. So it's again and when people say, oh, it's the sphere not sphere, the thing not thing that, and when you interact with it you understand. Okay, at least from my perspective, it's this kind of duality, this kind of in between worlds. You could say also it's the hades or other correspondss like Pluto osires like this under.
Underworld God.
So again it's the one and where is the underworld again in the mind always right, it's the you can say it's like the subconscious.
So it's it's.
Behind, it's it's guarding all the richness again, all the things that you have, all the programmings that you have in your mind. And to go there you need to, you know, go through this quote unquote Porto. You need to not be here, not so here anymore and there. So it's kind of duality. I think that plays a lot. So also there's the I think it's called Arich and Arich and pin or something like that, like the short face God, long faced God, uh, that they'll talk about
in like Hebrew Cabala. So again it's you start to see how they portray it. It's very very very similar. Also when you'll start experiencing the things.
Uh, you know one thing I do want to tow us in. Uh gen, I.
See you brought up another image, so I'll jump over to that after this, uh for me, and I guess like why it clicked in my head to start paying attention to it. And again it's sent to sound cheesy or you know whatever it is, what it is, it's my experience. How it seemed to happen is that after I have these like magical experiences, you know, I think I crossed the abyss. When I open up my eyes, I will have like just this flutter of stuff go like come into me. That like it's just like somehow
it's a knowing. It's not like a faith. It's hard to explain. And I've always felt like maybe that's you know, the knowledge that starts to come, you know, flutter into your head after after your experience.
You know, I don't know how that is.
I don't know if it's like you know, I've I've questioned like are you tapping into like you know, the ole or like every everything everything exists, you know, so you can just pick up ideas and maybe I don't know, want to open up my eyes some of it gets converted into thought in this reality and it comes back with me. But there is knowing of things that I didn't know prior for me at least, So I just want to throw that in there.
I one hundred percent agree with that.
Sorry, man, no, go on, just ready. Yeah, I feel the same.
I mean, yeah, that's what it. That's really what it is. It's where the lightning happens. I think that that's a really interesting sort of way to call it or to articulate it. And I think that it's also a place of synthesis, like I think it's a it's it becomes accessible to the magician after he crosses the threshold and sort of figures out a regular, maybe not fixed way, but a kind of a hermoneutic to get back. So I agree with you, it's an incredibly important for us.
And I think this is why Romic was smart to not actually place it on the tree and to say is the fifth density rather than to say, oh, it's this place that you go to, But maybe it's in all the different kinds of wisdoms or all the different kinds of splendors that you experience that are of God. Well that's his idea, right, So, and I think that's actually more true. I think it's more like there's a in Buddhism, we would say there's an emptiness behind the
nature of all things. And as Lisa and I have often said together, it's emptiness is not nothingness, it's luminousness and masslessness. So it's like a higher consciousness beyond than like even our vessel or our husk is capable of at regular times. But it's also accessible. And so a lot of Buddhists will talk about like Rigpa, this diamond thunder mind, this kind of like clear expanse in space,
like a brother soular from our lodge. He'll talk about how the death and red power are very similar, are the same, and I agree, so agree. So there's this icon that Nick brought up, thinking Nika is really it's a beautiful icon a. It's a deity called Havazra, so that even his name can actually be described as the diamond thunder breath. And his wife's name is actually ne Raima, which means she who is without fixed self. Now this is a different contract deity that Nick brought up, also
a phenomenal tanka ga jud jin. But so this is Yamataka, the slayer of death, and actually if you look under his feet, he is standing on both Shiva, but we wouldn't call him Shiva. We'd call him by Rava. So the ferocious god of time and his wife and his wife, so the guy with the bullface very Moloch, but his wife is actually named Vadra, the Tully, the diamond thunder vampire. He has to raise her back into life. That's why I often say that this is where the lightning happens,
because you have to conquer your fears. So, yes, there is an interaction with Benna. There's an interaction with Saturn, but you're moving away from that. You're very plutonic. Now, I don't know if Matt agrees with us, and Matt you can chime it in now, of course. But I like Pluto for Dove. I think it makes sense. But I also agree, and we've talked about this many times, is that though the dot Heather and Hope mok shift and can be understood in different ways depending on different
kalpas or AONs. So it's good, it's very good to not have a fixed position. But I do like Pluto because this is kind of more of the Buddhist idea. Yeah, I just want to throw that in there.
Again, we were talking about right not being fixed on the ideas, and the way I like to explain it is, whenever you relate something to a sphere, it's not about that thing being the sphere or the sphere being the thing, but rather that's a good example, like generally of that sphere. So let's say, let's use a mounding thing. If I'm talking about footballers, I'm not gonna talk about like a guy like Gordon Ramsay or whatever, I like a cook.
I'm gonna talk about Cristiana Ronaldo, Pele or whatever, someone that is good as a footballer, which doesn't mean that the footballer isn't also something else, like he's a father, he's like the man, he's this, that that, that's one. So in the same way, I completely agree, not only I would say, not only even the three like the top ones, uh cater Hoffmand, you know, but any of them. So you could say even that. Again, whatever we relate things to Mars or story to get are not always there.
Like the tree.
I can share the screen in a bit, but like the tree, to my understanding, is always moving. And even that plays into that a bit, which, by the way, just remember there's this Egyptian concept of do what which Again you start to understand it's their underworld. It's like, oh, okay, so who came with the concept first, you know, but it's whatever, it's funny, uh. And you have this idea of every four AONs, okay, every four ages if we're talking about astrology in general, like this a lot is
you build, you build another sphere. So again the tree when it was like I don't know, eight thousand years ago something like that, we had the ogdoad. So again the Egyptian they'd had the eight spheres three and then we had like the nine spheres three and now we have like a ten spheres three with a eleventh sphere not sphere. So so my understanding cosmologically, the tree keeps evolving, and that as from my perspective, and also the way I was initiated, and I see it makes sense.
Is the next.
Sphere being built, so again every four cycles, so you have fire age like we had. The last one was aries then fire sorry no earth, fire, water and air, so you have earth. The last one was Tarus, so fire, aries, water, spi, seas are now air Aquarius would be the end of the construction of the thing, and then you might see, okay, wait a second, is it now getting so popular like VR and like getting into the digital ground, like crypto and like everything digital. Again, this separate world that we
are creating, it's like the end simulation. Let's say that we are entering and again another shire, like you keep entering and some one very speculative. But it's the way that I understand that as again, this thing that it's here but not here, like Wi Fi, you know, like you can interact with it, but you cannot really do anything. More like you can interact with it through some means, but it's not really here, like you cannot point to it.
You cannot. You know, it's very.
Abstract, it's very not here and so on, but it is here at the same time. So also I saw someone mentioning Tarot, and the way I used Tarrot with the kabala is I placed all the royal ship cards or royalty cards sorry in the in the off so any of like the king, Queen, the page and knights. So that's how I use them, and it seems to be very interesting because then you understand them. It's kind of like the personalities in the reading. So if you're doing some type of reading and then you know King
of Ones comes or whatever, they understand. Okay, it's the personality of like the active thing, that the active, active masculine thing, the.
Starter with the fire.
So again in h Absolute, I think the firework right. So again you can start to play on all those ideas.
That's great, Matt, I totally agree. I just want to point out, like even what you said about the absolute world, you can see at the if you're looking at the screen, it's on your the viewers, the witnesses right hand side, you see Street w Pauld and Lama Aka Mahakali. So we talked about Collie for Bana, but you can see her at the bottom there, and she's surrounded by smoke not fire, meaning and she's riding the donkey the ass at the end of the world, if you want to
call it that. But it's interesting because that I've always thought that that fits very well with the Hebrew path between Binnah and Hokema, because the world is already destroyed as she rides between as she rides between time and the idea, between understanding and wisdom. I really think that it's destroyed. But then she also brings it back into formation.
She's also destroying as she goes, So you're kind of losing that fire world and you're gaining like exactly what Matt said, you're gaining a ground because it's a burning ground. It's not totally there's still fire, there's still air, there's still earth, and what we were missing really is always water. At least in my opinion, I think that that is more true than not true. Is like we are not drawing maybe the proper portion from the right pillar as much as we can be that hasthetic kind of ideas
of loving Kindnessey. I know Matt knows that I'm very fixated on this, but I think it's a really important note, especially if you're looking at Fortis iconography, that we do really place high emphasis on body cheetah. Whether that's exactly the same as loving kindness, I think it is, but maybe brother Soul would disagree.
Yeah.
Another way I like to see it as well, is like when you are going up the tree, which I don't recommend you for a beginning like going up the tree, I mean going with the kliffas, like breaking the klifas and swamp, and then you reach that then you start coming down the tree with the liking path and creating things, and then it becomes like this circle. Right, you start again, you directify yourself, create something, and then erect for yourself create something, and then it goes.
On on and on infantly.
So he plays this role of like being a portal.
Oh for me, this is killer. Yeah, the my man.
Sorry, yeah, I always love what he comes off.
Something. I just want to ask. It's used to like.
Little small things that I'm getting out of, Uh that I kind of got out of what Gareth Knight had said in here, you know, the thing with Janice, you know, And I always kind of like associated that with a really chokema because I do think it's like, well, you come and face to face with God.
But I do think like you kind of alsothing can choose to go the other way. It's you know, almost like another hinge again in itself. Uh. But I could see that, you know, he.
Attributed to Doth and I could see that too, because I guess at that point you would have experience of both sides. Like I guess, like if you if you guess, if you took on the Janice archetype, you've already been there in the back, or you were on your way practically there. So I did feel that was kind of interesting. And then something with his vices that hit me as I was reading it this time this time, you know,
he said doubt, apathy, inurtire, cowardice, or pride. I always said for myself, whenever I have the magical experience, as soon as I start kind of like thinking, it's it ends, but like I'm realizing, most of my thoughts were always like where am I?
And what am I?
And that was that doubt because I don't know, you know, or one other time I was like, this doesn't look like it might be a good experience.
Maybe I should not do this. Z that cowardice.
I don't know, but it just hit me when I was, you know, reading that, because like that that kind of is my experience that would take me out of the abyss.
I don't know.
Discursive thinking, no, exactly what you said, Nick, discursive thinking is someone I saw how a tweet about this about discursive thinking as like the truth skits is like this,
that's what makes reality is the schizophrenia. And I agree with that is like when we expand into thought and also like these outward klypothic consciousness that's not necessarily good or bad, but just like names that we put on vessels, so when we expand into that, we sort of break out of that like a place where we're able to access knowledge. I totally agree with that. So, yeah, I think that's really interesting because this is what this deity
even represents. Like you can see there's Yama in the bottom left hand corner, he's the god of death. Then you have Mahakala, so you have the time king at the bottom center, and then you have Malancoli there, so he's higher than them. He's conquered them. He's conquered time, conquered death, his wife has resurrected, So it's you know, all the symbolism is really there, and like the generous thing, like, yeah,
he has heads pervading all realities. In Buddhism, there's ten directions, so not all the deities have ten heads, but he does in particular because it is kind of a liberatory. It's a very liberatory sephra, And so I think Kenneth Grant's like sort of inclination that it is very power or full and sort of able to take you out of the cube, Yes, because you're able to sort of go outside the cube and then see what it is maybe but with a like stronger understanding that it's also
conceptual and also in your mind. So it's like you kind of create it. You kind of like Vanessa saying the best, it's exactly that. It's like you see the common ground, but the como ground is really your mind, so you can decide how you interact and well also what arises there.
Yeah, I like with Justin saying that too.
Yes, Jen, now that that is what I believe the Book of Revelation does with John's vision too.
Mm hmm. But uh man, do you have anything else you want to maybe add with doth.
I think it's a sy misunderstoodent usually also, that's something to point out if you're like just I componly agree with you.
Guys.
Don't go just by the books, you know, like the book should be the the tech should be the foundation, like the or better. Yet you should have a master to like help you initiate. It's like the If you think about it, it's mathematical. If you have someone which comes from a lineage of people which were initiated in so and so on. And that's for real, you're just getting sped up. You know, you're you're not getting through the experiences, just yourself and trying to figure out what
is and what isn't in swamp. So I'll say, especially with that, it's very important that you try and have the experiences through. You know, whatever it means is makes more sense to you. I'd say personally again comes with environment. So in Brazil it is legal is it can be easy to find like ritualistic aauaska and mushrooms usage. And to me, those were one of the experiences that helped me break a lot of khleifas just because it put
me in this again here not here state. You know, I was because when you are using an intellogy like ayauaska, you're and I'm not advocating for it, don't use it if you don't know what it is. Don't you know, try it out. It's not a game. But the thing is you are still conscious, but you're still accessing this other place. You know, you're fully conscious of the thing and you can you know, interact with all these different
ideas in your head and swam. So then it made me were as well, Okay, maybe there's.
More to life than just material things.
You know, maybe I can start, yeah, having a look at those things, you know more seriously, because I had some experiences refer but still was super skeptical I'll say getting into the top and again you would have to go through that to go into the top three series.
Right, So it is very important that you know what you're doing.
In a way that you also don't get down into the clotic three right, because it is the portal.
So yeah, it's it's a very interesting sphere.
And to me again, the way I use tarot is in a meditation way. It's like in a it helps my it helps guide my consciousness.
So if you.
Understand reality as this frame by frame thing, so it's like a movie, right, a movie. A video doesn't happen like in the best. The video is like a lot of images, like what you're seeing right now. It's a lot of images put in on top of each other. So when you understand that, you can understand the terror as the images that are going to pop up. So if right now you need let's say the Emperor, Okay, you bring up the Emperor, all the archetype, all everything
that comes with it. Even if you want to relate it to Kababa, the path and so on, and you use it so in that way, when I'm relating the like I said that to all the royalty cards, then you can use them in a very interesting way because they are going to be like you're unconscious. So it's the deepest of the programming. It's like the program that you're not even aware it's running in the background.
You know.
The subconscious is the programs that are running in the background conscious, all the programs that you're running right now. The unconscious like all the deep, deep, deep programs like coming from if you want to go that way, past lives whatever it is, right, but all the deep stuff.
So for you to go there, you need the correct keys, the correct archetypes, and it's going to be very interesting the more you start to play around, you know, if you want to use specific myths for that, like for example, the territory like using is the mythic one with the Greek stories, and you can look at the royalty cards and the story they're portraying there and play around with them, you know, change the stories, see how they would relate to your life. It's a very interesting practice.
To do.
Something you said, Matt was super interesting to me was that death is a place that you it's sort of the place you see when you're going up. And I agree, I totally agree with that. It is kind of like it sort of reveals itself to you the higher you go on the tree, I think. And so maybe that is also to go back to. Next said is maybe that's why it's also not as interesting for people to approach just intellectually, just through that path of study, simply
because it doesn't immediately reveal itself. It's very in and out. It's very hidden. So but not because of its nature being esoteric, even just because of its empty nature.
You could say, somebody did that.
There was a nice comment here I wanted to address if it's possible for so someone commented, is it be fine? What the car and bah and allah going on here? So indeed, very interesting question, like what even the name means? Right about to go to Jewish mysticism, they'll say, you know,
it's like was it revelation or whatever. It's like they're they're going to give you some idea, right, Okay, that's good, you can go with that, but it can break it down like this person beautifully did you can break it down the car.
And the lah was up.
Just real quick.
The funny thing is is a person who commented that may not have even have like meant that literal.
This guy says crazy shit all the time and normally talk.
Yeah, it's good, it's good.
So you might actually be answering your question. He really didn't actually mean, but go ahead.
It is interesting thought to do, like breaking down the words. Right, So if you break down kabala in that way, ka and law in this case, he went, but I'm going to stop at the law, which is the word that is actually there, you can see how it was being used already in Egypt. Again you have the ka, which is they had the sole partitioned in nine parts. So the co was one of the parts, the Ba was another part. The cow would be like the physical body, okay,
the bab would be the digital body, the astrobody. And then you can say the law is the elevation again the all alchemy or the L. You know the L the way you have the in the Jewish textans one, you have this elevation. So again it's the ele of both the bodies. So in this way you can see kabala as the technology of the body of the soul. So that's a very cabalistic thing to do, like breaking down words, you know, getting your name for example, breaking
it down, changing stuff around. That's a very interesting thing to do. I wouldn't relate it necessarily with one of the spears we were talking about here, but it would be I guess it's a very hard thing to do. Maybe maybe that because you're seeing what's not there, So in a way it's a very it's a very bad practice, like you're going to not only what's being shown to you, like the name, the pure name, but what's hidden there, Like again, what's what you're not seeing from the shadow
of its name. So that's a even if it was a comedy comment, it was a very interesting practice.
Well, I even know like people that especially back at the day, and I've even you know, people that were associated with the Oto back in the day, they were
into kabbala. Also you'd see times they were influenced by kind of Islamic stuff, and I always do wonder if they're you know, I don't know, I wonder about a lot of older alchemists or a lot of older alchemy actually kind of sprung up over in those areas to begin with, or at least I think in paper, you know, written written documents stuff, So I do you don't wonder about, you know, the whole like if that stuff even does kind of fit into Kabbala.
People don't even realize.
Yeah, go mungeon.
Sorry no, sorry, I apologize, Matt, Please please answer. Yeah.
I was just gonna say, personally, I see as everyone has their own part in the tree. So it's not like, you know, the the Jays are gonna say no, it's our thing. It's our things like k bros can be part your thing. But there's definitely other people talking about it as well in other ways, Like I was saying that the Ying Yang and one so sure, like the Sufi stuff. Also, there's a lot of stuff there, Like everyone was kind of talking about it. There's no way
not to talk about it. If you understand it is the thing creating the simulator itself again, the technology of our own beings. There's no such way as not talking about it. You're always talking about you can I unsee.
So what you said, Matt was so interesting about the sort of code dath connection. You could say, so the image that I the last one, I'm sorry, Nick, the one I just added. He is the image of what we would say, quote unquote hod, so that kind of like it's knowledge, but it's not quite in fullness because he's peaceful. But he actually is the also that one that has the ox's face or the bison's head. They're the same deity. He's just depicted in one way or
the other because he's nondual. Can be peaceful, it can be wrathful. So and it is interesting his colors because his colors can also be said to be very hoodlike. So, you know, I just I just think it's it's interesting that that you make that connection, because I have too.
And sometimes it's hard to even discern what the difference between like cold like thinking and like crew knowledge death thinking is because we're dualistic beings and we tend to be discursive and tend to think of things in that schizophrenic kind of world, and especially because we do all you social media now, and that makes us even you know, it fractalizes us even more.
So.
I think death is an interesting suffra going forward in the future because I think we have we're reforging it, or at least, you know, these technocratic forces are reforging it in a way, so we'll have to see how what we'll see be able us to see what happens
in the future. But I also like that you said, Matt about the aonic idea, and I think, like Nick and I have talked about this many times before, like, yeah, there is an ionic idea, and it is shifting into that kind of fourth world air quality age of if you want to call it Age of Aquarius, I use a different framing, but you know, it's a it's interesting to think about Cabala in that context, like that we're doing this even right now, like in this exact moment,
like people are listening to us. The three of us have a conversation about things that are quote unquote oh called evil, like you know, the Jays did it to mind control humanity, like all of those things. It's like we're it's like breaking the klipa almost even if people think it's bullshit, it's okay. But I just think it's really interesting.
Indeed, and may I ask Jan, what's the color of your shirt right now? Is it by any gent it's black? It's black, of course if it was if it was white, it would be interesting because it would be the three the three things, you know, the black, the white, and the strips wearing white.
I'm wearing white shorts, so they're kind of yeah, they're they're you know, Heather Gray.
That nice. All right.
Again, I really don't have much to say on this sphere unfortunately. I mean, I don't know if you guys have any more. We could just wrap it up there and actually keep it at a normal episode.
Length, it's up to you.
I'll add one more thing really quick. So the ca ah law I thought was really interesting from like a tonric aonic perspective, because you could say like kaw as in Collie or Colla as in time. You could say ba as in Birava, or the ferocious nature of things as they appear. And you could also say law as in Laalita, as in love is the cause of knowledge. So some really interesting I think correlations. Maybe maybe just interesting parallels syncretisms. Who knows. You have to discern for yourself.
Yeah, yeah, very interesting. I'd say maybe about that. There's nothing exactly here more that I wanted to bring that least, nothing comes to mind. There was a nice comment here about William saying like magic quote unquote being bringing imagination into reality. Yeah, the way the way I understand the soul. So again when we talk, so I understand it as imagination itself. So like my example of reality being this frame by frame thing. So the soul is the one
pulling the frame. It's like saying, Okay, what do I imagine right now? I'll imagine myself being rich whatever, Okay, boom, that's what happens. I imagine myself being sick. Okay, that's what's.
Going to happen.
And it feels like more and more with the years, things are going on faster. So the more like I don't know if it's personally because I know I'm doing all this practices or whatever, but I see also with other people close to me that don't necessary practice this kind of stuff.
And that's what's happening.
The more the clearer the imagination again shouldn't be a klefa, I should be pure with light. The clearer it is, the faster it comes, and the better it comes because it is really down like to me, my understanding kabala, it's like the understanding of your soul, the understanding of how can you interact with the simulator which is like your own body. Your own body is the thing you're simulating through it. You are simulating everything, you are experiencing life.
So the American that's say how it works, you know the better. And I talked about this in Jin's episode as well. But I always try to bring it on because you know, maybe you may be feared, You may have fear even though of the code or whatever, or you may feel like, oh, it's too much to study whatever it is, right, but if you at least try to do something, whatever it is, but do it well, you're gonna be touching Kabbala or you know, higher spheres and one just you know, try your best to do
one thing and that's it. You don't need to if you don't want to study, you know all the crazy occult things, go to you know, strange places and so on to meet some strange people. It doesn't matter. Just go and do one thing the best you can because you're gonna reach those levels. It doesn't matter. You know, eventually you're gonna figure out. You're gonna have to work. Also, this quote unquote or quote that you have to ask It is a quote to whom really like, maybe to you,
but to people studying. It's not a code at all. It's very clear. Actually that's a practice to make it clear. But if you take anything to study in what I mean, anything literally, anything like it could be you know, playing a sport, you know, cooking whatever it is, working on something. But when you do it intentionally and in the present moment, you are there, you are you know, understanding how reality works.
That's the main practice I'll say.
Yeah, exactly, don't be intimidated by wisdom science. Embrace wisdom science because it's really important and it will deal call things right before your eyes. And also you're not going to understand it right away. That's okay, that's totally normal, but you should try because like Matt said, balls and everything, like Nick said, so you can't really see it's both
it works both ways. It's in everything, and you can understand at least, so what we can sort of perceive on this level of consciousness, you can you can relate them all to the tree. And so it's a really useful tool. It's a really useful tool for many things, not just magic, but maybe magic's also in your mind. So maybe just even the act of thinking is in a way magical.
Yeah, I mean, if you want to make money, you know, everyone uses kabalae. If you want to be famous, everyone uses kabata, and if you want to be healthy, it's whatever money you got to use it. Even if you don't understand what you're doing. You know, it's the same buttons. So either you use them without understanding, or you understand them and then you use it easier easily, you know, so you cannot and see it after you start seeing it.
And if your system maybe doesn't relate everything in a way, also that shows maybe that you should adapt your system or you should enhance it. I would say that's one thing as well. Again, don't be fixed. You know, we we've been talking about this in this podcast a lot.
Don't be fixing the ideas. Try it out.
Even if you don't necessarily agree fatures, why don't you agree?
You know?
See do you really not agree? Or is it like a paradigm from before and break all those glipphas.
It's a logic proof, Starry Nick, Oh, go go. It's a like proof because that's how you have to think of kabala. It's a logic proof. And like Matt said, like one of the most important things actually is that you should be able to test your logic, your kabbala stary logic against how to work with the tree and how other people understand it. So I think that's a really useful maybe the most useful too. I wish someone who I wish when I was twenty two. I know,
mass twenty three. I'm going to use the magic number, but I wish when I was twenty two someone had told me that.
So, yeah, like, well, William's even saying and you cannot speak without prophesizing.
I think a lot of that's what politicians are doing. What they want. They just say shit to get us to do it or whatever. They use us.
Yeah, most definitely.
That's how Like they someone said, take like, you know, imagination or whatever in your thoughts and put it into you know, turn it into form. I think that's exactly what politicians use us to do. You know, their imagination comes out verbally, and then we react certain ways to give them the opportunity to do what they want or create what they want. I guess I think, unless you guys are good, I think we can wrap it up here.
It's an hour and a half perfect. We purposely picked eight to eight today because of the number.
I don't know.
I don't know when the next one will be and what. Plus I have to make sure it works the mat as well. But I'm assuming with the next few weeks or some shit, we'll be able to do the next two spheres. Maybe we'll keep it like that, just do two spheres at a time, or we'll see what we see what happens. Thank you again, Matt, I really appreciate it. Before I wrap it up, do you want to mention tonight we are going live again with the Awakened podcast.
Come check that out.
There will be a bunch of the rejects with us tonight and then tomorrow got a real packed day for lives. Be interesting to see who still shows up on the last one in the morning. Fingers crossed. I've gotten the OK from this guy. I've already sent him the link. He knows I made it live and everything. Ashton Forbes supposed to be coming on the Occult Reject tomorrow eleven o'clock in the morning. We got that going on, and then we do have Thomas Sheridan, another another.
Bang of a guest. We had him on one other time.
Wilson, He's coming on and talk about druid mounds and then at night the occult rejects themselves will be covering hands symbolism, So definitely check that out. Uh but yeah, keep out Q and eye out for that live tomorrow morning. Should be impressive if he shows up, if things crossed, but uh yeah, Jin, please let everybody know where they can find all your amazing stuff and what you're doing tonight.
Please thank you so much, Nick, I really appreciate it. Obviously, doing tak Kabala is perennial discussion. I can have it every day. And thank you obviously to brother Matt. And you know, Matt is incredible sort of. I don't want to. I don't want to categorize him or label him, but he he's a incredible magician in his own way and
in his own right. So everybody should follow Matt. But if you're interested in following me and hearing it Matt and I in dialogue, you can do that at at Wikongrie Born to w uk O and g Reborn or at Threshold Saints, which is both the show account on ex Twitter and also IG. Matt's episode has dropped, Ashley's was just earlier this week. Thing change repeat and Toby Chupples dropping tomorrow the ninth, and then tonight, Yes we have Friday Night Gnostic Mass. I can't remember what I
titled to eat Drink Nectar Meat. I think as a little play for un wrath full Offerings. Takes a light.
Yeah, it was gonna say that almost kind of makes me think of it's a light.
Yeah, I mean there's there's definitely an inter relationship. I mean that's what that's what I mean, that's what nectar is like, I mean, it's it's it's that stuff. So I mean there's a relationship. So yeah, it's just a wordplay on the Angley film. But I think it'll be fun.
It's gonna be a free range. We're we're gonna continue etherpunk, but we're I wasn't quite ready with all the scheduling and all the bookings I have, so we're just gonna We're gonna hear Solar, Matt, Monty, Joseph, Mike and the Branch and they're just gonna go hard and I'm gonna moderate it the best I can, like I always do. And thank you guys so much, really really appreciate it. Thank you to the chat. I couldn't even keep up because I was trying to think of things and like
listen and it was a lot going on. But thank you guys so much. Really appreciate it, Matt, and really appreciate Nick.
Thank you.
Oh yeah, no, of course, thank you. I always appreciate when you can make it on.
With this man. And like I said, I could talk abala with you all day.
So I mean then there's going to be you know how many more spheres we're gonna be talking about, so it should definitely be interesting and fun. Matt, please let everybody know well, first off, again, thank you so much for coming on.
Man.
You're definitely gonna bring really awesome part to this series. I appreciate you doing this. Can you please let everybody know where they can find all your stuff, and when you're done, please send me a links that I can share and put in the show notes.
I forgot to add.
Them, yes, for sure.
So first of all, thank you obviously for calling up, and thanks Gin for the bridge. So it's a good time to talk about those things which I love the most, so i'd say right now, and yeah, I mean it was a great episode. I'm I'm glad you can do this more. I'm at Mora. You can find me on x Instagram, YouTube always at Matt Mora nineteen. I just sent a comment in the YouTube chat. You can always also go to my website. It's kabala dot com. That's kaa b a h l a h dot com.
Sorry, key, k A A b A l a h dot com.
Very simple. I send it in the chat as well. It's a lot of like small apps in there, things and that you can do. Most importantly, you know again, if you like this kind of content, make sure to follow us, see us, listeners to us. But also to do your own work. That's what you're here to do, you know, Yeah, your your own work. So yeah, thanks about everyone in the comments. You are great, very nice.
It also couldn't keep up all the time here, but yeah, sell some good stuff and it doesn't happen without you guys in the chat, right, It's it's all a synthesis of everyone.
So thanks a lot, Oh, thank you.
And I think you know a really good way. And not to get cheesy with it, you know you said, uh, you got to do your own work. I really think to even end it with dot. When you do your own work, you have your own experience. Which in my opinion, is what gives you true knowledge. So exactly what he said, do your own work and have your own experience. Uh, thank you again. I really really appreciate it. Both of you is to uh, you know, do this series with me and everybody in the chat. I mean, that's what
was off. There was a lot of great stuff in there. There were a lot of just wondering and thinking and comments and questions.
It was awesome. I really appreciate it. I'm glad it's going as well. Uh yeah. And that is the That is the end of this one and until the next one, everybody.
Be well, close your eyes, look into the darkness, find the blazing star.
Focus on it would be called the eclipse. Don't feel like the show will begin.
And go.
You is.
I don't let any