The Evolution of Astrological Magick with Jamie Paul Lamb & Ike Baker

you know, they're close. I was like, I got to get them both on maybe.

major for me, so thank you so much. Ike, and of course Jamie, I've shouted you out many times on the show and my show just for kind of blowing me away and humbling me in a big way as the I often call myself the rising hodelike Prince of Kabala.

well as the True Gray Lodge dot com. And of course Matt Mura is our webmaster for that as well as runs our YouTube channel, so that is our group show and I'm dropping in an episode with Greg k today in the Hour of Saturn, so watch out for that. Thank you so much, guys, appreciate it.

did them, but now I'm more focused on them. So if you're interested being a beta tester, just let me know the m me in any of these platforms.

loss of e, et cetera. And my background is uh Masonic historian, temple chief and adept of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn under the Ciceros, and Martinism a bunch of other fun stuff, but yeah, just a general, a general real enthusiasm for occult is a mesotericism primarily magic.

like to direct people to my website. I've got all sorts of offerings on there and a blog that I need to do better about keeping up to date, and I plan on writing some more stuff in the future. But I want to say it's a pleasure to be bad, Nick, thanks so much for asking me. I always a pleasure, everybody else. Great to see you again or to meet you this time, and uh, really looking forward to this conversation.

necessarily astrology. When we talk about astrology proper, I think we're talking about uh, planets in science, in houses and how they're how they aspect each other.

and you know, taking bits from Mesopotamian proto astrological omenic. Uh, auspices and things like that, and they're electional and their mundane sort of proto astrology, and then mixing that with the Egyptian inheritance of of you know, time keeping, the the calculation or the consideration of the decans on the horizon, and the very notion of the ascendant, you know, and using that horoscop post to later to cast a figure

or charter. So yeah, and then the magical part, I think, you know, that's something that I was hoping we would because it's misty where that where that kind of begins, right, the astrological magic, because you could say these sort of since we know that in the Acadian through the Babylonian Mesopotamian complex of cultures, there at least they were using

electional astrology when to do things and mundane astrology. So if they're electing when to do something, then wouldn't that be sort of a magical because you're you're sort of you're sort of harnessing the cosmic momentum of a certain configuration in the planetarily or you know, zodiatically or otherwise and bringing that bringing that down to a terrestrial operation, you know, which I think is it's got to be astrological magic, even though it's proto astrological, I don't know,

well a little misty.

But when you when you use a technique to try and alter or change or influence that or buttress against in fortune or or or misfortune, I think then it can for me it's magic at that point.

voodoo dolls or something. They had little figures that they would create at certain times that would be imbued with that sort of stellar influence or planetary influence, which right that Yeah.

so on. And what he would do is, because he was into kabbala, he would go to the little sessions going on and write down everything that was asked for the person, like you've got to go through this place, like the cross place, and then you've got to you know, get those ingredients and so on, and around that time do that thing. And then he wrote it down, and then afterwards he checked the correspondences and the astrology and those would match, like he would be a proper like

castrological magic. But the person doesn't necessarily new that because they were just getting told what to do, you know. The the nentity or whatever would come and say like, hey, go do this to solve your problem, and then they would go and do it. So it's very nice and understanding as well that even if you don't necessarily know exactly the bits of what you're doing, it still will work.

or or Hermetism. We know that there's at least that pimander like component of an assent anagoge or something would it be? And and you know this source Shiro better than I do. Do you find anything where it's like astrological teletie or you know, or where they would definitely you like in the Asclepias the god making stuff, right, is that astrological? Or do we just see things like like the Discourse on the eighth and ninth with the no I mean it clearly says.

and aspects, those four parts that first appears. Now similarly, you have really the first concrete record of of of what we would consider modern theurgic ceremonial UH and the you know, the bringing together of all the various colors incenses. We have a very good record of that kind of

stuff from that period. I would say that from the outset UH in that period it's it must be it had and there you know, also including the technical harmtica and the philosophical harmtica, there's always a planetary component because even when you're even when you're doing UH emsycosis right in souling an object, even when you're doing that, the intermediary the sort of the distance to be spanned the let's say, you know, I don't know if it's Aristotelian

or what, but that that chain of causality, that chain of flow always has to through the firmament you know, through the through down, through the planets and and stuff like that. So I would say there's a very very strong emphasis throughout the traditions. Uh, you know, even some of the pseudo Aristotelian stuff and pseudo Alexandrian stuff that they listed the Pika Trix, right, the Pika Trix says, okay, I am I, I collected the work from these guys,

these ancient Greeks. He's constantly talking about. You know, it was it was pseudonymous. It wasn't actually Aristotle talking about you know, uh, or at least we don't think it is. Scholars don't think it was.

constellations and the spiritual properties of those constellations. So you know, part of the year Apollo would be there, and then other gods would come in and start speaking through the pithea, like Athena and Poseidon, so yeah.

He talks about it like he will sort of barage. And Greg Shaw did an amazing article on this. If anybody wants to get a hold of it, I'll send it to you. He sort of disparaged the use of astrology specifically for sort of telling the future, but he did emphasize its necessity in theurgic you know, an agogay assent, so he was saying like, yeah, we use it for this, not this type of thing. But again, you know, I

love v Amlicus. I don't think he's the end all be all about theorgy, And I think Porfyrey had some incredible, incredible insights that had very different brains.

a basis, a katabasis, you know it. I guess since we're talking about astrological magic, do we want to limit that to purely like talisman making or things that you actually need to cast a full election for, you know, you have to fully cast a chart for that, just

like natal astrology. Using magic. In natal astrology, which I do a lot for people, is you know, i'd get maybe the lord of their year, you know, the planetary lord of their year, like what perfection they're in, which is a time lord technique, and I would get the the lord of the house that they're in for that year, and then I would maybe set them up with some sort of synthemata or you know, the appropriate colored candle signatures and tokens in the in the terrestrial sphere, the

appropriate color candle, the appropriate incense, the appropriate musical mode like a church mode, plagal or an authentic mode, and you know, the appropriate image maybe to set up and setting up a rudimentary little altar for that deity for that year, so they could and whether they whether they sort of interface through the archangel of the planet, through the planet itself sort of, or through the you know, Greco Roman entity associated with that planet, or the Mesopotamian

or Egyptian entity, or however they choose to interact, you know, whether from a pagan perspective, Abrahamic perspective. I mean, you can kind of work around all of that syncretically, right, But yeah, so that's something I definitely call astrological magic. But we also, you know, a big thing and I think this brings in the Neoplatonic thing, but also the Haranian thing much later the Sabians of Herah. Is this astral religion which is like you know, which is so teiological.

It's self effic as has something to do with the the condition of the soul and the soul's you know, existence beyond death, so and the state of the soul. It's cleanliness, it's orderliness, whatever. So do we call that astrological magic? That's that to me? I guess in the loosest sense we do, because it has to do with the celestial sphere and also events on the Earth that are tied to that through chains or seer or whatever. And you know, I don't know.

you know, at least to his mind. But I would say the main issue, right, okay, So like we defined astrology pretty succinctly, so what needs to be said about magic is that it's a bracket term that everybody uses differently, or I would say almost everybody will have some shade,

some flavor of difference in their definition. I mean, if you ask somebody who just joined I don't know, a wick and coven and somebody who's been in the Golden Dawn for three weeks, and then you talk to some solo practitioner, I don't in the forest in Germany who's been like reconstructing PGM spells for thirty years or whatever. Like, They're all going to have a different idea of what magic is. And so much of it is really in

the phenomenology. It's in the actual experience of doing the ritual and then the way that the universe speaks back to you and and you know, you get to test and see your results. Uh. But I would say, yeah, to Jamie's point, we're talking about magic as distinct, let's let's let's you know, I like the Greek sort of wealth of terminology, but maybe let's let's let's boil it down for the sake of making it manageable in a

conversation you have. And this comes down to, you know, uh what really Skinner was the guy who set this in motion, uh with with his techniques of Greco Egyptian magic.

magic as a technology or a techne. It's a craft. Magic is a technology. You can use it for sorcery. You can use it for conjuration, you can use it

to commune with with angelic forces or elemental forces. But I would say that on the simplest kind of poll you have, let's let's maybe talk about it in in like in a Grippin context, you have elemental or natural magic that a lot of that is what's going to be more familiar to Wickens and two and to people that are more I would say, of a nature based sort of thing, you have uh, you know, celestial magic, which I think goes both works both ways, and then

you have you know, I would I would include divine the divine magic, obviously incorporating the celestial because that's kind of, so to speak, analogically, how you get there. That's that's theurgic uh in nature, which is you know, for me, theogy can be defined as not just God working. But let's say a more practical definition could be, And you tell me if you agree with this, the technology of magic applied to spiritual assent, or let's say, the evolution of the soul.

and things. But yeah, theorgy making use theogy as a techne, making use of these these sort of possibilities through the chain of being, you know. And maybe that's something that I think's worth talking about is all of these people from the ancient Greeks and you know, the hell the Hellenistic period, all the way through the medieval Perso Arabic, the Renaissance, particularly people like Ficino and Agrippa after him.

All of these people are making use of a chain and ike you were just kind of talking about it a few minutes ago. How you know, things sort of if we're working with the gods, let's say they're beyond the fixed stars in the zodiac. They're beyond the firmament, the canopy of the stars. So when we're dealing with them, we're trying to theoretically, particularly we're drawing down so we have to have sympathetic resonant sort of attractors down here, depending on what which chain or series or seer i

that we're that we're operating with. So typically you go through each of the seven visible planets, the ancient's new seven planets that were visible, and they called the Luminari's planets as well, the luminaries being the Sun and the Moon. They're considered planets because their planet there they wander, They don't follow the fixed stars in the zodiac. They move

against that canopy, in fact, in the other direction. So that's that's Plato's the different and the same, you know anyway, But but you so you figure out what the operation is. I think this is definitely worth talking about. This is astrological magic one on one. This is bedrock. Here is like you figure out what operation you want to do. And let's say it's a love you're making a love talisman.

You want somebody to fall in love with you. Clearly you go through Venus, right, Goddess of love, of aphrodity, ishtar or whatever, and and you So for me, I use the color green, which is a queen scale golden dawn thing. I just like the color green for Venus. And it's like the the the you know, copper turns green when it's exposed to the air or whatever.

be the Jubiterarian part. The sap would be solar that you know what I mean. So so you you stack all these symptomata or synthemata, and that attracts that that engages that chain, that that golden chain, you know, that that connects you're going through Venus to these sort of idea of Venus, the form of Venus beyond the fixed stars in the zodiac. This any attic sort of for this noetic Venus, Right, it's just like Plato's forms are up there, they're intellectual sort of entities.

that's planetary. And I think that's important to say, is like when you do an astrological magical operation, you're engaging whatever chain that is depending on the want or need of the magician here.

on that scale than a diamond. And the Anloch just kind of collapse back, and he's like, we are tethered, our souls are tethered to our bodies. They're not in that position. They move their bodies intellectually from afar. So it it's yeah, it's very much so like a physical and actual mundane grounding point that that that noetic intelligence of the god is like at a distance, you know, uh,

setting to order. And I think that that's that's a huge part of talking about this is talking about how, you know, the main thing, even even working with something in like like the Hermetic text. The main reason why there's this preoccupation with astrology in magic is because it's it's literally it is the being of the cosmos. It is the wheelwork of existence. And you know, I've said it before, the ancients didn't have digital clocks, they didn't

have wall clocks. You know, it was you know, you know, all the way all the way back. Let's say in prehistory, you'd go outside, what determines like whether or not you should stay awake or go to sleep. Where the sun is, what determines whether or not you should keep warm or take you know, take layers off. Where the sun is, you know, what determines whether or not like the tide is going to swell and you may drown the moon.

So all of the apparent causality, it appeared to them to be all up there, like so this gigantic machine could be viewed in motion and we could see its effects here. So that's that's you know, I think that

that's really really important also for grounding. For grounding, I think that the person is trying to wrap their head around astrology and magic is getting them into that that worldview of understanding, like you know, they were looking at they were trying to observe, like why is this stuff changing?

Why are these patterns existing? And we could go and do a whole side tangent about the underlying why, you know, But I think I think a better kind of pivot would be maybe this I'd like to ask Jamie, like, if I have it right, sort of the astrological practice really starts with omenik and mundane astrology in ancient Iranian region, correct Mesopotamia?

you were you made me think of that. I like this idea of the demonstrable causal effects of the planets and that being something that clearly that the ancient saw and definitely informed some of their early conception of astrology, or at least domanic proto astrology. There's also there's also this idea of the moon throughout astrology being the distributor.

And I love this idea and it's something that I think even astrological magicians sometimes, you know, definitely at their peril avoid you know, is the importance of the moon in a chart, whether like let's say, like my example, before you're working on a venus talisman or something. If that moon is waning, then the love is waning. You know, the position of the moon and the condition of the moon is really important. And simply because bringing Aristotle back

into it and told of me uh through him. But how when when that effluence and I never use the word energy here because it's metaphysical, it's not physical. We're talking about metaphysics here, not physics, when that effluence is coming down through the seven planetary sphere and taking on its coloration at each of those or it's it's accretions, just like a human soul does when it comes down through the spheres. Uh. See the myth of her Or

et cetera. At the at the sphere of the moon, the sub lunary sphere, the moon herself, she's the nurse of the Earth. She's the distributor, she's the dispenser of fortune. Down here, she's she's the you know, fastest moving planet

air quotes uh and and she distributes. So it's very important that no matter what what the operation is, whether it's a wealth jubiterarian thing, whether it's a mite Mars thing, aggression or some you know, war bellicost sort of operation, whether it's transportation, communication, mercurial, whatever it is, you want the moon to be. You want the moon to reflect that operation symbolically. You know, if you're giving up smoking, you want a waning moon. You know, like tobacco is

ruled by Mars. So if you have Mars in a bad you know, a bad placement for Mars and you have a have a waning moon, that might help you, you know if along with other factors, that might help you to create a talisman for non smoking. Just off the top of my head, something like that. But that's the basic nuts and bolts, Jamie.

Christian Astrologies, all his horrory stuff. Uh, he's got this thing that we used in the Golden Dawn. We use Lily's considerations before judgment when you look at a horror and the main thing that he's driving home is like, you know, Nick and I swear, oh yeah, don't do any don't read this chart. If the moon is fucked, you know, like like it's like if you're if you're trying to do electional or horrory. And and he's got

the via combusta. I think the general thing is like, if the moon or or if the moon or or the you know, the planet the lord of the significator is between fifteen degrees of scorpio and libra, don't do anything. But really the main emphasis in his considerations is, uh, is the moon. And I've always found that interesting. Uh two kind of tack I guess, tack on a little bit to what HG.

to her. They corresponded her to the moon, like the you know, the not just the dark moon, but the moon in all of her aspect, because she's triformed, so that that's always been God. There's always been an interesting interface for the Moon for me.

with the Greek stuff, as I've told like many times. So, but you know, how do Jamie, how do they reconcile the later sort of mogalized Persian texts that include the Nine Luminaries of like the Artarviodas, like including Rahu Katu.

How is there a way to reconcile that like with Western magic or without necessarily including the the outer three, or I'm very comfortable using the outer three, like I like Uranus for Rahu and Katu is obviously Neptunian in a way, and so I'm comfortable doing that, but some people are not. Is there like a way that either

of you sort of reconcile those cosmologies? And I think it also ties in with the moon of course, because you know, so many of the systems use that nine planetary model or at least the kind of idea, and like I brought up the sub luninary like changing that world, well, definitely the ysoda or the moon is definitely the place for reconciliation, rectification and like bringing things together, you know, come off the sun.

is how we would understand it. So there are ways to appease them, or in some cases, like the more deeper into tentre that you go, whether Indian or Buddhist, there are ways to completely clear negative planetary charts, as I've heard I talk about in the more Hellenistic terms before. So yes, it is the North and South, not to the moon. But they actually are considered like luminaries, like

they're considered to be in the physical sky. They're just shadow planets, and so I think you can liken them also to the outer thro the two of the outer three that I mentioned. But I also you have to kind of understand like how they work with certain deities, because only certain there's very few deities that can clear

Rahu Katu. Rahu particularly loves to be both Venus and Shawnee or Saturn, like he loves to pretend to be those two things, because those are very densifying kinds of planets, like to bring things into material reality, and Katu loves to be both. Ioway think of it as like Hessaid and Va, but Mars and Jupiter because Mars is like the annihilating flame, right, so he likes to bring people there so they kind of annihilate, because that's what KATU's real desire is to get out of the form.

not a predominator, but it kind of it increases. It tends to increase, whereas the south lunar node tends to decrease. So if you have a planet conjunct the the Jupiter, let's say, Jupiter conjunct the North node, it's going to turn up the Jupiter vibes a little bit, you know, to put it colloquially, whereas the South note is going to turn down the volume on that planet's expression. Now,

of course that's tempered by other things. If you get Jupiter in cancer where he's exalted, then you know, and you got the and he's conjunct the north lunar node, you're going to get Jupiter to the max pretty much, you know. So it's like there's other factors. And then you got aspects to look at, you know, and you got his despositor to look at, and is he you know, in aspect to his despositor. There's just a million things.

You could literally drive yourself crazy, and you know, so that's one thing, but then there's and you could drive yourself crazy with elections, like I want to elect a good time to brush my teeth. You know, I got to elect a good time to leave the house, or

I'm fucked. Everything's my whole life is ruined, you know, Like you know, I could see if it's a wedding or a job interview, but some people get into the weeds where it's like, you don't need to elect for that, man, I mean, you're gonna be okay.

differently than me. I know, because I've driven myself nuts so many times, like you, limitations are actually good. Limitations are good because what they do is they subordinate this kind of lust that we have for You know, if you're trying to do a magic ritual and elect elect for something, you you obviously have a lot of skin in the game, You've got a lot, You're in it. You know, you're invested, You're you're doing a ritual for it.

But that those those sort of impediments and those those uh inhibitions to you getting exactly what you want, I think are actually a good thing. They leave right because part of magic is learning how free will and determinism uh intersect, and I think that they can really really benefit each other free will without any any four walls around it. We know what that turns into, you know,

so I think that's really important. That's why the moon is really I look at the moon, the lord of the ascendant, the lunar and or the the north and south nodes will normally tell me something to do with a lot of times in this horrory thing, the beginning and the end of the matter, uh, and and how it's going to start, you know, that kind of meme, how it started and how it's going type of thing

along with the symphony of other information. So there are also like really really major detractors from from being able to you know, if I have you know, a significator who's whose uh you know, rulership is or whose lord is is Jupiter and he's afflicted, I'm gonna wait, uh and and and again. Sometimes that can be a good thing.

So I would, you know, I would encourage people that are interested in particularly like electional and horrory, like you know, you gotta be okay with with getting what you can get, you know, and making the best out of that.

the Greeks is what the word means. So it's they when they learned how to navigate the Red Sea, uh, you know, for trade, and they went to the Indian subcontinent, they brought a document called the Avana Jadica, which was Hellenistic astrology at that time, and that that sort of informed there the existing lunar mansion based NOx Chatra proto astrology.

And then all of a sudden, you know, vedach astrology has the angles, the the ascendant and descend it the m C and the ic the kentron, you know, so there's if you look when they talk about the deccans and the angles and stuff like that, these are essentially Indianized transliterations of of Hellenistic astrological Greek terms you know that that it's very like whatether they call the deccans again,

it's like decnas or Dreknas or something like that. It's it's basically the deccans and the and the kentrons, which are the steaks. The angles are called like kendra or something like that. So it's so it's you. I'm just saying this to tell you, you know more Hellenistic astrology. Then you think if you know giotitischer rada christrology, because

it's really an importation of Hellenistic Christrology. I mean, other than they're no chatras, they're lunar mansions, which who knows how they shared those with the Persians the person Arabic tradition.

find it. There's there's nothing wrong with the Full. But in the dark the only and the only sort of interface that I'll work with in the darkest hit Kata because it's just a different aspect of for you know, the morethonic. She's not, She's not entirely sonic. I think people get get the wrong idea about k Kata being a an exclusively cothnic goddess. She oscillates, she encompasses all

of them. But but for the most part, I will I'll only do avocational or invocational ceremonial in the waxing period.

like they it's different forms. It's not just like one goddess, it's like all the number of the they're called the Daughters, but they're related to obviously the grouping of Matracas, which are sometimes said to be the Pleiades, but sometimes they're also said to be the Big Dipper or the Little Dipper, again depending on the texts.

You know, So the the zodiac just goes down the body and then the the planets are actually they're like organs in the body. So for the planets, I think Venus is the liver or no Venus is the kidneys and the basically genitalia. Mars is the gall bladder and intestines. I think, Uh, Saturn is like the skin and bones and spleen. Uh. Jupiter is the liver and the blood because he's sanguine. I don't quite remember all of them, but you see where I'm going with that. So the

so the planets are the organs and the zodiac. The belt of the zodiac is the length of the human body from areas at the head to pisces at the feet. And you when you're looking at a figure or a chart, you would look at maybe the sixth house to see for health and wellness and illness and things. I would look first at the sixth house, maybe the condition of the lord of the sixth house. If the sixth house were, you know, on the zodiac sign of say of say Scorpio,

it would be the privates area, you know. And if you had, say Mars in Scorpio where he's the ruler of Scorpio, you could say that you have well, you could say that you have swelling or redness in the generals or something like that or heat, you know, so it's a yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty and plus that moves around with perfections too, which is my favorite time lord system, So where each each year of life is a different house, you know, and basically you

just go around the wheel your whole life. You know, it's different each time. And and and that that also moves your sixth house, you know what I mean, because if you're treating your perfected house as your first house that year, you know, that moves your sixth house into

different regions of the body. And then when you have planets there, those are the organs you know, and how how they're Oh, somebody who's asking about the hermetic lots part of spirit spirit as an accurate representation for the yes, I could see the part of spirit just to answer aeros up real quick as people have associated that with the personal dimone. But I like, look into Ibn Sina and no, I'm sorry. Ibn Ezra and Masha La. Ibn Ezra and Masha La have the most rigorous technique of

finding the the personal Dimone. It's really involved, though. You got to put each of the planets in the five highlegal places it's too technical for this, but it's it's really cool and I think it's the most decisive method of finding the personal diamond. Sorry for that digression.

of my health and stuff before. But I'm always looking at like six House transits and stuff like that to see what's going on and even you know, Lord of the Sixth, like, what's going on there, How's how's that planet being aspected? What's going on there, what's applying there, what's separating there. But astrological herbalism has been I would say, like the last maybe like year has been really really

big for me. We're putting together. My fiance and I are are co author in a book called The Astrological Gardener's Companion, and that's uh, that's gonna come out probably at the end, I don't maybe the beginning of twenty twenty seven. Maybe I don't know, but yeah, it's that. That's usually how more so how I will approach it. And then there's also certain uh preperations, like phylactory preparations, were like, I'll this is more of a PGM technique, but I will use the I would say a more

uh uh, I use the sun for healing. Okay, so I'm looking at what's going on solar solar wise, but I will consecrate a What I'll do is I make an ink. I have a recipe for making ink out of myrrh and gum Arabic and uh natural colorations. I will write out like a healing either something from the Psalms or something or from the Gospels, and I'll write that in at the peak of that uh that election in that in that time period, and I will roll it up and I keep it in these little you

can get them for like eight dollars on Amazon. They're like these little screw top uh, sorts of I'll see if I can grab one and show it to you in a minute. But it's just this little screw top container and they come in these really some of them come in really cool designs, like a mine's got a uh like that Greek kind of like tessellated that that border design on it, and you just slipped that in there when you're feeling ill, you know, with this consecrated talismanic.

You know, you've prepared the ink, You've written it out and sort of I sing it out as I write it over and over like a mantra, and then I'll hang it around my neck until I feel better.

think it's really great. I mean, of course, as a professional astrologer, though you got to be careful because you tell people, oh, just don't worry about it, go take this tincture, you know, and then all of a sudden, you know, somebody's somebody's heart falls out their ass, and and then you're you're on the on the hook or somehow, you know, their mom's like, their mom's like, uh, you've made my son's heart fall off his ass.

some of them are like nerve. Well, some of them it's like what it's kind of known to do magically. It's almost like all right, it's actually kind of recreating that in your body with in inhaling it it's hard to explain, but some of them we kind of see like, oh wow, all right, it's interesting for sure.

not for something like that. I'm I'm pulling from the PGM, even though I have I have kind of blended both of them before. I just don't find that it's necessary to use the hexagram for for stuff like that. I think it can also interfere. I I like it when I'm making traditional talismans out of a specific material with the squares and the you know, the sigils and stuff straight out of Agrippa and all that kind of stuff. That's when I'll I'll use the hexagram. I find that

that combination is really well. That's how I learned how to consecrate talents exactly, the hexagram.

I say it when I give presentations. I'm using energy almost as like a it's just a place place marker. I would say, we don't really know entirely what it is, but we do know. I really liked the term that you used, effluence.

of life. Like I had to rely on that as well because it maps onto the body as a microcosm, and so you can I also find like I started off in jaiz En meditation and certain Vedic practices that are kind of similar to Kundalini, and just working with with the midline. It's it's good, I think in terms of purifying and sort of condensing this energy and et cetera,

and so on and so forth. But once you break it out into those three pillars of the tree of life, or really once you get to like further levels, you're you're working with five pillars right in the microcosm one, two, three, four five. That's at a certain point in Golden Dawn work, you're working with five pillars in the sphere of sensation. It broadens it up for magic because every one of those things is corresponded to a planet, you know, a

zodiacal constellation and element every part of that tree. So it really broad it up for me in terms of a magical scheme. Man, you could you could totally work that kind of planetary uh you know, I guess energetic system, but you you know, you're gonna need to like memorize a bunch of correspondences. I don't know how many people want to do that, but I know if you, if you come through that sort of trajectory and that training like you, you probably already have it.

So even if they don't know that, it matches just because you know they're feeling and they're trying to explain with their own words. Somebody that does understand can do the the match in. It's so so nice and reaffirms the how that works. Right, So it's pretty fain cool, Yice, Thanks about for the chat, Thanks about everyone that watches them from here and uh you in the next one.

astrocoetic book. So when you uh started doing like because you mentioned that you use the tarot for like part of that working, So you explained like how you would use certain tarot cards to represent Obviously, certain astrological conditions are couplistic sort of associations for getting into taro, Like I understand the tree in my own way, in my own ton tric way, and I am a big diagnosed this.

I'm a big fan of dcs David hym Smith Heimsmith excuse me, sorry, and so I've read all his books, and I've also read like Romic and stuff, But I don't come at it from like a necessarily hermetic perspective. So when I'm now trying to learn a little taro, at least in its application to the tree, So what would you recommend for me or maybe someone who's less familiar with the tree to get into Taro met like, do you like tom Berg or is there something like it?

with rudimentary Kabbalah? Do you know are you good with mythology? Do you know Renaissance history? Do you know courtly heraldic symbolism? Do you know you know a little bit of alchemy? You know, it's when you start to know these when you start to develop those modes of interpretation, when you start to develop a hermeneutic toolkit is when is when I think when you could really act it. Do you know Pythagorean numerology for example, you know when you think of one, is it the monad?

And yes, there's a couple of transpositions there, but uh, it's nothing I'm you know, worried about. And it's and it's the language that we speak. So there's the other thing when we talk about and I know you're a cobbylist, when we talk about the gras tree or this tree or that tree, I think we all agree pretty much on the kurture tree, and I think we all pretty much agree on the Queen color scale, just if we're

talking generally about this stuff. So, and we all pretty much agree on the attribution of the tarot to the netivot or the paths. So I think it's just courtesy amongst occultists to talk in the language that everybody knows, you know, and to use gammetric values that everybody kind of agrees with as opposed to some ordinal things, some

other creative interpretation. But yeah, it's just something. Yeah, you could specialize on your own, but when you and I are talking, I'm going to use the language that we know absolutely have in common. I don't know if that kind of veered too much from your question, but yes, about about Taro, I think I think it's more the things that are around, the things that you learn around Taro that informant ike.

it work fine in both situations. I think consistency in your own method is important. But I also think, uh, you know, this is gonna sound cheesy and new agey, but I mean Taro was the first, it's still is my preferred to a nation method. But you got to develop a relationship with the cards. They speak to you

like a person. You know, a lot of times they speak to you like a counselor it's not it's not that you I feel like one of the things about the Golden Dawn system is that I think it's better for Tarot card pathworkings or things like you're using where you're doing this sort of you know, using the tarot as like associations for particular planetary whatever it is. But I think ultimately to develop a really serious Tarot practice, you got to just develop a relationship and be consistent

with your methodology. And I agree with you, I Taro is it's always been like my number one thing was the first like occult tool that I ever purchased and worked with. But I've I can count on one hand how many tarot books I've read. It kind of it because like the first third through everything I've tried to read, I've been like, this is this gets more more in the way than helping me.

I mean, it's just we It's in our commercials, it's in our cars, it's in our food. It's just what we take. You know, everything's weights and measures. The planets are meaningless, just dead matter held together by some natural force or other, you know. But I don't want to

go down that path right now. But I will say that regarding the Tarot, starting from that intuitive place and then learning all this theory and all you know, all the GD correspondences and all the mythology and all these different ways of looking at it, then coming back hopefully to where the intuitive and the intellectual kind of meat, and you don't have to think about those correspondences anymore. It's it's become something where these symbols, you know, especially

I use Tero de Marseille and Merseille. These are these are nice, like wood cutty looking, strong, austere images.

is how does it feel? Not what does it mean? You know, when you have this crazy dream you wake up in the morning, what does it mean?

of the spheres was kind of like disproven. But I think the broader project of what we call right the Enlightenment really was was this prolonged effort to sort of sort of de enchante you know, disenchant everything uh by. But it didn't it didn't successfully do that. I think.

It did not destroy it, first of all. Second of it was it really was a shift in in predominantly the Protestant and Walter Honograph has done great research on this. The Protestant universities wanted to strip out this sort of platonizing version of Christianity, And little did they know that that project, once begun, would eventually just come back it to bite them in the ass and eat them alive in terms of you know, the academic institutions. But it's

a I think that's what rendered it controversial. But even even still there were people in the fifteenth and sixteenth century still using this stuff. You know, there were still some doctors that that you know, it's even still well known, like you don't you don't draw blood, you don't do surgery in the full of the moon. That's still like a modern thing, you know, because why because it's like you're gonna you're gonna have a heart time controlling blood loss.

So even even back then it's it was I think something that was quietly done.

But yeah, I love the ticonic cosmology. And Ike and I have talked about this a ton, and it's you know, it's a charge that many anti astrologers level at astrology is that it's geocentric. They say it's geocentric, so it's an outmoded cosmology, it's you know, but that's astrology. We use the word georeferential. It's georeferential because the Earth is the reference point from which human beings survey the cosmos.

The Earth is the locus of human consciousness. It's astrology is an earthly art that we apply to the cosmos. So we live on the Earth. It's our perspective, and you know, it makes sense to think of the Earth as being this stationary central object. So one little thought, kind of thought exercise for this would be, imagine you're looking at our Solar system from celestial north. You're out in space and you're looking down at our Sun and

all the planets are orbiting it. Right, take the pin out of the Sun, stick it in the Earth, and leave all the movements exactly the same, and you're totally fine, you know what I mean. That's all you need. You don't need to believe something ridiculous to be an astrologer.

You don't need to believe in geocentrism. You need to believe that the Earth is your locus of observation, and you need to consider that both the Earth and the Sun are careening through space at some ungodly miles per hour, right, doesn't matter which one's rotating around which, you know, Just stick the pin in the Earth, leave everything exactly the same, and you're fine. You have tychos you have typos cosmology right there.

You know, I think the main thing was is this idea that when we reallocate the quote unquote center to the sun, it kind of you know, it detracts from the specialness of human beings. It's like, I think, again, that's another modern or postmodern misconception. I think it's a corruption of our thinking that is a product of this everywhere we look, atheistic, reductionist materialism. It doesn't matter if the center of the center of gravity is the sun.

Your experience is in your fucking body, in the room you're in, in the town you're in, in the state you're in, the fucking planet you're on. So that does not negate any of that stuff. And again, you know, like like Jamie saying, you don't need to say either or. You got to have two things that have their own domain of authority, right the let's say this, the the phenomenological and the the the the scientific or empirical or

the subjective and the objective, respectively. They got to have their own domains of authority if you're going to do this shit, and they have to be in communication with each other. But one shouldn't be trying to stamp the other one out. But particularly when you're when you're working magic, it is useless. Yes, uh, to not adopt a you know that that geocentric drivers or georeferential driver's seat view of the cosmos, because both are true, they're just different kinds of truths.

in the center. They had water on top of the earth. They had air on top of water. They had fire lighter than air. You could see when you drop a pebble into water that the earth sinks. You could see that when you put air in the water, the bubbles rise. You could see that that air is that fire is lighter than air. I mean, that's just the way the elements stratify, or the really the the states of matter, because earth is just solid, water is liquid or you know, uh,

air is gaseous, fire is plasmic. That's all so, and then you get the etheric spheres, like I was talking about, incorruptible, unchangeable above the sphere, the sublunary sphere of generation and corruption, and then beyond that you know the odo ad, the any et cetera, these angelic spheres, these noetic sphere, whatever model you're working with metaphysically, because you're beyond the physics at that point.

or I was, but this helped me. I don't know how much it'll help everyone, but I'm sure there are some people out there that will be interested in understanding this the basic premise of astrology, like Jamie saying, is not necessarily that there are these astral rays again a substance of sorts. It's more so that everything is interconnected on the level of the blueprint, the level of the metaphysic.

And for those of you that need a little bit more of a philosophical or sophistic way of thinking about it, we talk about it in Agrippa, you talk about it in Iamicus. Any kind of of drawing down effluence has to do with this chain of flow, okay, from the divine, through the celestial to the material. Now that implies like proximity, which again there's a truth to that, but there's also this other truth and the other truth which was really

elaborated by the Stoics. But I think Platinus, the quote unquote father of neo Platonism, really now that this idea of sympatheia sympathy Okay, what he said, and if you're familiar with the tree of life you'll understand this, the cabalistic tree of life. But he said is that like sympatheia, doesn't the fact that everything is I guess the word he used was emanations, right, pro odos a moving outward and emanation, but he said Platinus specifies because of sympatheia

that emanation of the spheres doesn't necessarily happen sequentially. It's just a hierarchical relationship. It's a series of relationships that is happening at the same time. It's the same thing with the lightning flash on the tree of life. Kether and Malkuth are happening at the same time. They just have a hierarchical relationship and this stratification of relationships between them.

So I don't know how much that helped. It certainly helped me to kind of not get caught up in like, Okay, I've got this on the one hand, reductive quote unquote empirical model of the way that the cosmos works, and then on the other hand, I've got this like I don't know, German fairy tale. I don't want to have either of those. What was much more satisfying to me

and lined up with my phenomenology. The experience of practicing astrological magic is to view everything as having this sympathea right where it's there is relationship to each other, but it's not necessarily that you know, everything is sequential or linear, let's say, right, because then that's how metaphysical causality happens, is that it's not linear.

Urinus was discovered I want to say seventeen eighty one by Herschel, and then later for the I think it was like nineteen thirty or something when they discovered Pluto. But those being invisible planets, the ancients knew nothing of them until telescopes, of course, but because and if you do use them, I never use them. But I don't

do a lot of mundane astrology. If I did mundane or worldly astrology talking about current events and things like that, I would absolutely look at the outer planets, the trans Attorneian planets, because they're generational. They have to do more with groups of people and civilizations and stuff. Because they it takes I want to say, two hundred and eighty four years or something like that for Pluto to make

a complete orbital cycle. So if you're doing natal astrology or electional astrology or stuff like that, I wouldn't even bother with them they're doing, unless maybe you we have a very partile conjunction, you know, like you're like, you're your Pluto is right on the very degree of your Mars. You might consider it a little bit, and that's just stacking your that's just Mars a little you know, a little like swoll or whatever.

would bring more meaning to the situation. What are you guys' thoughts on that?

like what Matt was saying earlier. But then the other the other piece is and the Pika Trick talks about this right out of the gate, right out of the gate, right this this eleventh century astrological magical book Can talismancy et cetera. It opens up with the really opens up with the first practical pieces in like chapter four or something with the the uh the mentions of the moon. But it mentions multiple times you could do this stuff if you don't believe it. If there's any doubt, it

won't work. It won't like the Pika trick says that not me, and but I have found that to be very true, so that those are my requirements really for drawing things down. The other you know, I wouldn't use like a Yodhey vave formula. Just I'm getting disenchanted with with I don't even know if I should say this, but I'm getting disenchanted with kabalistic magic. I'm really reverting much more to nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with it, seriously, it's a very good system. But I'm

much more interested in in the Hellenic and Hellenistic. I think it's because my Greek is a lot better than my Hebrew, right, I mean, my my father's from Greece. I can speak the language decently, so I'm much more interested in what's going on there having sort of an ethnic connection to it, I guess a blood connection. But the other thing that I think is important for once you've drawn the thing down, how to how to test

if it's actually happened. I think that that's a really important thing as well, developing those methods or having a teacher show you some of those methods to be able to test your work. But those are the three main components for me. It's got to happen at the right time.

that doesn't really answer your question, but I wouldn't. I don't really use that method. The only method I've used capitalistically has been you know, the hexagram and Arorita formula to bring things down. But you know, you're you're going through the entire hierarchy. You know, you're when you're when you're doing the hexagram, or you open up the you

do lesser hexagram and kind of create the area. Then you you have the targeted greater hexagram, which is facing the constellation or the planet wherever the quarter of the heavens where this planetary you know, effluence is its body is located. And then you you you call in the hierarchy, so you start at the highest divine name and work your way down that's associated with the planetary sphere, all the way down to the spirit. And then it just

depends like what what are you trying to do? You know, are you doing the talisman? Do you just want to bathe in the ambiance of the planet. That's the thing too. People do that.

Osiris is the primary thing, the resurrecting God. And the reason why I say that is because it's LVX is a magical formula. So if you are, if you are invoking that formula consistently, what you're not understanding is that it's a formula of death. It's and that's I don't know how much anybody knows about the five equals six

of the Golden Dawn. I won't put any spoilers has very much to do with this idea of death and rebirth, and that you know, that initiatory current that you're invoking will will you're asking, you know, put me to death, put you know, lowercase m me to death.

One of the early Church fathers said that no saints or righteous individuals in the scripture celebrated their birthdays, asserting that such festivities were associated with sinners and pagan practices rather than faithful followers of God.

they so they don't the incarnation. The only incarnation that really mattered was was was the birth of Christ and and it's it's it's not necessarily as as as like world denying as some of the Gnostic sects, particularly the Sethianans, right, the Valentinians were not that world denying. They they didn't

really think the demiurge was evil. Uh, it's just said that people just we have this bracket term called Gnoscissism that we just throw all this bullshit into and so you can't you don't really get a really good picture of what that was early Christianities we're talking about. But even on the right So here's it's a good example. Platinus, father of Neoplatonism, he wrote a tract, you know, against

the Gnostics. The thing is, if you he's he's only arguing with them theologically, How could you think the demiurge is evil? How could you think that but he's not arguing with them. The fact that like, oh yeah, but don't you know, don't indulge anything. I mean, porphyry starts the life of Pythagoras, getting of his biography goes or the life of Platinus, says Platinus seemed to be ashamed to be in a body. I mean, so even even in the pagan practices that we're trying to have this

anagogic ascent through various means, we're not. They didn't look very well on at at worldliness. Now that's that's where you get Eamlicus, who says, hey, guys, it's not all about transcendence. There's imminence too, And yeah, there has to be imminence otherwise there's no order and magic doesn't work and nothing works at that point. So I in that sense, I I I it's a very especially for theoretic magician there, it's a very nuanced uh sort of line that you

have to that you have to walk. What do you think about that, Jamie, I'm interested.

It's activities in the world. So I think I forget where this started in the in this conversation, but that's where I when when you were talking. That's kind of what I was thinking about near the end, there is uh That's that's one way oh about about going back. So theosis, at least in uh some orthodox circles, theosis is made possible by energeia, by activities in the world. So just let and you know, it sounds very close to the synthemata that are sewn into reality, you know.

And uh in fact, a lot of that, you know, as it passes through Pseudodionysius and and others. You know, Amplotonis who was you know, not to mention origin and Clement of Alexandria. How a lot of this makes it into the early Church fathers and and a lot of this, uh, you know, late Platonic, theogical stuff, these ideas, you know, and if you look at icons, for example, they're they're not just you know, icon of carvers. They're they're not

just making a painting. These are windows to the noetic realm, you know. These are like these are like real portals sort of you know, metaphysically, So there's there's an intact, you know. I think late Platonism is sort of alive and well, uh and it's it's as hidden as uh as pollomoombay or whatever is in Santa Ria or Catholicism, you know how you know, these uh urubin magical initiatic traditions were hidden under the veneer a finn veneer of Catholic Saints and stuff like that, just so they can

you know. I think I think there's a similar sort of mechanism and earlier and similar mechanism with some late Platonic ideas and Christianity, how they're there's sort of Orthodoxy as a aproaching horse for some of that stuff, let's say. And I don't know if that has anything to do with what we were talking about, but I feel like I feel like Energies and Essences was a place we were going.

the paths. It seems like it does begin, is that, And then I was going to mention Kersher, who then added the letters to the paths, and then you guys ended up saying it. So that's why I like to wait a lot of times, so it makes more sense when I actually talk about it, I guess.

letters that are on those paths there. I was looking at them, and it seems to me that it's like Lamed mem Nunn and Dalette and you guys were talking about windows and doors just a moment ago, even speculatively, But it makes me think of the door in heaven or the portals in heaven through which God would send the waters to flood the earth, or he sends his seed Christ or his prophets, or where you know, our birthdays are kind of celebrated as when we passed through

the door of heaven right, and his shepherds like his profits right. So I just was curious if maybe that's what the lunar mansions are all about is maybe it's the door to the mansion, so to speak. And maybe that's why these times are important, because doing something at the wrong time would be like trying to get through the wall of the mansion rather than the door, so

to speak. Right, And it makes me think of references christ even made to about how like the way is narrow, you know, so maybe there are importances to take note of.

So you know, there's that like fabled transaction or that letter between Alexander and Aristotle where he goes, you know, Alexander's expressing disapproval about Aristotle publishing his teachings, and Aristotle goes, I, yes, I have published it, but I also haven't. So it

was supposed to be very very rigorous, esoteric. So Porphyry writes this thing called the Isago Gay, the introduction very very I just finished reading it for the second time, like two days ago, and he's showing how Aristotle, you know, uses what is essentially a platonic technique that has developed in the Sophist platonic dialogue. The sofis showing how Aristotle breaks everything down into genus species, different particularity and accident. And so that's why we get the Porphyris tree. It's

really Porphyry's kind of pedagogical model of teaching Aristotle. So I'm ultimately the idea is platonic. Yeah, I don't know what the other Yeah, I don't know what what you maybe you want to repeat the part about like the firmament. I didn't know.

into heaven, et cetera. And if the pip cards kind of represented the seasons, the four seasons on Malcouth, you know, like because they don't seem to occur up above it. You said like sub lunar was where all the change occurred, you know. So I was wondering if maybe the pit cards kind of made sense down there on Malcouth.

at the bottom. Uh. And then with maybe the uh the operator representing the Earth element because obviously ol of Man machine that's that's air, fire, air, water and fire, so you wouldn't have an Earth there, so maybe the operator is Earth, I think some people sometimes say. But

then there's the seven double letter cards. Are the planets the planetary spheres above that from the Moon up to Saturn, and then you're at beina there cobble of you know, in terms of sepharotically, let's say, and then the firmament would be the eighth sphere, which would be Hokma, right, So Hokma I think most people understand to be the firmament. And then beyond that, you know, you'd have kether the crown, which is sort of any attic or no etic I mean, that's how I kind of look at Oh, and then

the pip cards. I see them as decans, you know. So you've got like two, three, four, Well, there's a way to lay them out, you know. And there's thirty six of them if you take the aces out, so there's a way to make those. You can make a really nice circle. Uh. With all of this, it's actually a neat little exercise where you use all the cards and uh and you make this cosmic model that emanates from the Earth and the center out to the beyond the any add or up to the any add or

the no edic sphere. But but yeah, there's I mean there's tons of stuff you could do with the taro. I mean it's it's really a portable temple. You know, you can orient yourself and and sort of create kind of an axis moon to you. I mean I've used I've used taro in that that sort of capacity before. It's it's really a neat uh, a neat way to sort of cosmologically ground yourself. It's a you can essentially create a magical circle and do all kinds of uh operate.

Like if you look in uh solemonic magic, there's always this circle. Sometimes there's a triangle of art and that moves across the perimeter depending on what direction the demon's coming from, et cetera. But it's all cosmological stuff. It's all you know, orientation. So I think the best thing if you're interested in this stuff again, I wouldn't go

to Dionfortune or anybody like that. I'd go to Mitch Eliotta, you know, and read something like The Sacred and the Profane, because that's going to straighten you out and cosmologically that's going to give you That's that's the real stuff, you know. Me Eliotta E L I A d that book. I mean top five for me, top five in my life. Yeah, Sacred in the Profane.

sort of thing. So the PIPS for me, break down into elemental sort of decads like tetractys and uh, you know four of of of these of the suits representing the elements, and they they really if you wanted to group them kabalistically, you could group them as as elemental trees. But a lot of times they're just put into the various cefirot. So if if you wanted to find a place where on the tree of life where all these things go, maybe you're working with the tree of Asaiah.

have a tree of life in Asiah. And then in each one of those sphere at right, Ketter's one, aces Kulkma's two, you know two, Pip ben Us three, three, Pip that's the way, at least I learned it through the Golden Dawn. But it is very pythea agree and and it's one system is not you know right, it's it's if it's right for you, if it's better for you for what you are doing personally. I love the idea of taking those in assigning them to the to the deck ends. I think that's that's brilliant.

your belongings, your movable goods. The third house would be like siblings and short trips, et cetera, all the way around the wheel. The houses are the domains of life in which the zodiacally conditioned planetary sort of essences play out. So she's asking about why did Porfyry go against whole signs because there are the first quadrant house system was Porphyry houses. So whole signs meant that the signs shared

cusps with the houses. That the that the cusps of the signs were the same as the cusps of the houses. So that's a lot of people say that's the first house system, that's the old Hellenistic house system. Some people have argued that point, like I forget her name right now, Hodges Hedges, I forget her name, but uh, but Porphyry houses uses the angles, the ascendant, descendant axis, and the mcic axis. I know this is technical stuff, but I'm just trying to answer her question. So and then Porfyry

equally divided the angles. He trisected them. So I think he went against that because unless you have angular houses, quadrant houses is what they call them when they're not whole sign Unless you have quadrant houses, that recognize the angles as cusps, then you have no micro macro because the micro is the is how that's projected on the sphere of the earth. So I think it's that's why a number of years ago I switched from whole sign to Portfyry Houses because I like to have the projection

of the angles on the earth. I think it finishes the picture actually, instead of just using whole sign where it's like kind of loosey goosey.

a on a Bellows operated read organ. It's really kind of a cool service that I'm surprised more people don't hit me up about that. It's you hear like through and I use medieval and Renaissance and some antique correspondences to uh two yeah nder that you know, like like the church modes and the planets to notes and the the the signs and stuff like that. So anyway, thanks so much for having me on Nick and head listen

everybody and Chin and the branch and ike. Always a pleasure to see you and talk to you, and thanks for everybody who tuned in.

I guess homepage. Uh, there's a little chat widget. Then anything you write in there will come directly to my inbox. Again, you know, I always say, please be nice. Now Jamie's gonna be sending men me send me weird questions like three in the morning. I shouldn't I should have waited until he left. But uh yeah, So if you're interested in in uh, I give private instruction and all sorts

of things uh you know, magic, alchemy, philosophy, pachology. I'm a guardian of the Anus and I do group courses too. Right now, I've got one called Music as Magic. We're like dead Center in the middle of it. Uh so, but you can still join if you want to sign up. I did. My last class was called Hermetic Kabala for practitioners and initiates, and the next one is going to be starting in March. It's actually it's called Techniques of

Greco Egyptian Theorgy. So I'm taking all the stuff that I did in Egypt a couple of months ago with a group of twenty sort of participants and bringing that practical and theoretical stuff. For anybody that's interested, just hit me up on my web page. You guys are awesome. Thanks for having us on. Thanks for inviting me on too. I really it was a real treat to be able to sit and talk with you guys, and Jamie of course, it just hats off man. You are a brilliant dude, and I love you.

I really appreciate it. Everybody in the chat. That's what's up. We got Freda rc Is in there. We got him coming on next Wednesday as well. We got Giorgina Rose coming on at six o'clock and then he got him coming on at nine o'clock for Nochian Magic. So Wednesday's gonna be popping off next week. Uh yeah, So if you guys are listening, take a look out for that. And again, everybody in the chat, there's a lot of people in there. Arrows, thank you for all the questions.

It was like you were on the show anyway. I mean, she was one of the members. It was like she was here, but not so thanks. Uh yeah, and until the next one, everybody be well Later