Technomancy: Magic in the Machine with Tree Carr

psychedelic assistant therapy. She studied psychedelics and altered states through the Out of Trust, studied ecology, spirituality and paranormal through the Sofia Center at the University of Wales Trinity Saint David, and also studied at the Arthur Finlay College of Psychic Science. She teaches through the College of Psychic Studies in London. Is a faculty member at the Magical Path School of

Witchcraft in New York. Has taught lucid dreaming practices at the Royal College of Art and also worked with platforms like the Psychedelic Society UK and She's Lost Control. She's the author of a wide range of books and projects, including Dreams, Conscious Dreamer, The Artist's Oracle, Espel a Day Dreamwork and now Technomancy, her forthcoming book from Watkins Publishing.

Before stepping fully into the esoteric and therapeutic arts. She also had a background in music writing and film, including running the East London cult film Society Today is Born from twenty from two thousand and two to twenty twelve and collaborating musically with artists, including test Parts. Her official bio says she was born in nineteen seventy two and spent her early childhood on a commune in the southern United States, which she credits as part of her lifelong

attraction to mysticism, the strange, and the unseen. Her TEDx talk asked a simple but potent question, can your dreams tell you something? And that same threshold sensibility seems to run through all her work Dreams, ritual grief, altered consciousness, symbolism,

and the edges between ordinary life and the unseen. And now she's bringing that worldview into the digital age with Technomancy, tech Magic and Spells for the twenty first Century, which a two hundred and eighty two page book scheduled for release on May twelfth, twenty twenty six, according to the publisher, could be wrong, and the book explores sacred digital space, emoji signals, the smartphone as a modern wand social media as magical terrain and even ai as an oracular presence

with magical practice. All right, that's enough out of me. Now let me introduce Sonre, who is co hosting the show with me today. Very happy to get you back on BUD. I like you when you're on the show.

seventies eighty three. Yeah, in the eighties, it was really popular, especially in middle school junior high school, to to kind of like feed into like the old fashioned cooters, like your talents or skills, and then it would spew out this sort of like really long printed out kind of message of your best suit of jobs. And my best suited jobs were really like it didn't give me confidence.

One of them was professional clown, which now I look back and think that's great, like actually like you know, the trickster, the clown, the pool. Another one was a religious leader, and I was just thinking, okay, how would like like a cult leader, like what does that mean? And then I think the third one was like an interior designer. But I mean look at my room, like I don't I don't think so, I'm I'm it's kind of mad and I've kind of got to organized chaos.

So I think I feel at you knowy three year old now just going like phew, I made it, and I think I know what I do now. But it's all the weird stuff. It's all the weird stuff.

are your talents and make something happen of it. So I basically started my first business at thirty years old, so in London, and I opened up like a cult film video film shop, video shop, and film club and around that for a very long time in London. So yeah, it was kind of like I just got to do what makes me happy, and so all the weird stuff makes me happy.

and people who had drug issues, drug problems. It's these sort of things were really apparent back then, like the Children of God, the Jesus People movement, all of these kind of things. And was it like, well, it was pretty much was a big formative impression since I was a form child growing up in the formative years there no television, no radio, no pop culture, no outside influence

in terms of very sheltered. But then also seeing all like the kind of like adults acting in crazy ways, like you know, going around on the floor, possessed by demons, speaking in tongues like, you know, seeing all the like signs and wonders that that came that belief system, and so that's a lot to take in as a kid. And the good things were seeing one of us learned how to play instruments, So I played tons of different instruments and read a lot and was creative. So it

helped develop extreme creativity in me, I suppose. And then also a really deep connection to like the mystical side of life, like dreaming. And I had a near death experience when when I lived there when I was four, so that also really really unlocked kind of super experiencer kind of situations and you know all the anomalous and strange, high weird situations that come from coming back from the

brink of death, you know. So that was probably the biggest influence for a lot of the stuff that I support people and hold space for people in now as well.

hold space for people who are dying. So I've been doing that for the last fteen years, you know, and looking back and connecting the dots of all my experiences, I was like, whoa, it all started really that near experience, Like that's where it all started. In fact, like when my dad pulled me out of the ocean after the near drowning. He put me back to land, and the first thing he did was he took out his camera

and he took a photo of me. That would have been like nineteen seventy six, And like years later, when I was a teenager going through the photo album, I said, Dad, why did you take a photo of me after I got back from the brink death? And he said, because can't you see your eyes in this picture? And I was like, look at my eyes and thought, wow, how did I not see that before? Like guys are like two black voids? And he said, your eyes changed and I wanted to capture that because it was so uncanny.

I thought, the pue my altar, so grab it and I need it to be on my altar because I need it to remind every day. I don't know if you can see how dark the eyes like voids?

clown and the religious leader is here, your designer. I don't know where that fits in, but I think what I'm doing now is sort of from the school of life. Really, you know, taught me what to do basically.

I'm not sitting there articulating it. It's like in retrospect, but I had a weird thing as a child where a really deep, deep memory, like I have memories of crawling around in my diaper and like very specific, veryific things and perspectives and vantage points even like sitting out in the grass and like looking at my little baby feet, I think like, wow, I look at my little feet.

Like having sort of like the observer effect. I had that really early on SPIRED, so I was able to kind of like I don't know, like integrate that experience. But when I had the ANTE, I went to the whole other pace and had a real sense that the ocean was also conscious, and the ocean like was a an entity in its own right. But it did it didn't. It's like it was kind of like how I communed. It was sort of like it was saying sort of like it's not nothing personal, it's not personal, that you're

doing nothing personal. And there was a sort of like understanding and a non attachment connected to that, like oh okay, and but I'm okay, I'm not in pain any like fucking drowning and salt water and you know, scrambling to try to grab those posts of the dock and it sliced my up from the barnacles and I just went

to this other place. But what was what really impacted me was that I was shown like I had I was like a nonlinear time and I was able to see like what was coming next like the future, and I saw like all the emergency vehicles land to the beach, like getting there, my parents giving reports, my parents distraught, like beyond belief, and them never finding my body again. And the grief I felt for my parents and empathy and compaction I felt for them was unbelievable, was like cosmic.

It was I can't oh, it's like deep love and knowing like I've always been with them and they've always been with us all together, and uh, I had more concern for them they did about me being dead or dying. You know. It was very interesting and so yeah, that's kind of I think one of the big initiators of my life and in a very scorpio moment. So it's

it's made me not afraid of death. Like literally, like a few years later, my grandpa died and I understood where he went, like I just kind of understood, all is okay, And when they are in the casket at the wake, I was super comfortable just going up to him holding putting my hand in the casket and holding his hand and touching him and by real going what

are you doing? You can't do that? But then I was like the teenager that was like, you know, when there was a death in the circle of my mother or granny's family, like, oh, come to the wake, I'd be like, all right, little weirdo, Okay, yeah, sure you can come around. So it's always like very scorpio, just comfortable around that. I wanted to be around it and not in a morbid way, but I just kind of felt like, I don't know, just I need to be

in those spaces to help people. So a bit of that service orientated.

And it's you know, astrologies. I'm not going to sit here and say it's one hundred per always dead on accurate, but it's like ninety eight percent fucking dead on accurate. You know, there's always at the rule, but.

for those situations but without fear. And then these crazy episodes which have been following my whole life where I'm in about public and I'm the person who is there when someone's run over by a car, someone is thrown off their bike, somebody has fainted on the escalator and or fallen down the stairs, and they're like literally I'm

the first there. And it got to the point where it's happened so much, my friends and my partner pointing it out like every time we go out something like you know, I started getting the complex like I sort of like you know, grim Reaper or something that was making it happen. But one of the biggest moments that happened I did finally say, okay, Universe, what's going on, what's this all about? And did a bit of dream

work around it. It was like within a very short amount of time and within a year period in London, like I kept getting it over and over where people were literally falling at my feet in these accidents. I had this one situation on Carnaby Street in London. It was a busy Christmas season. I was walking down the street and it was really crowded, so it's not, you know, unusual for a person just to stop dead in their

tracks and like throughout they're going. But this guy stopped dead in his tracks and then he started to slowly fall backwards into me and I like caught him and as he was down, like what is going on? I saw that he had a needle that he had just plunged into his arm and he was o ding and literally od in my arms and so you know, obviously called the emergency services and got him there. They saved his life, but it was like I'm falling into my arms kind of thing. Like that's just one example, but

one that I'll just circle back to. This sort of like scorpio thing where it doesn't like causing this was like at another market in London, walking down the street in October and this man was in front of me, a big, big guy, and he stumbled and leaned against the wall and so like it was kind of like looked like he might have fallen to me. So I kind of propped up and went, hey, are you okay? Would you like to come sit down on this bench?

And as soon as I touched he started to crumble and I just had a no one like this is serious. And he went down and he was turning purple and like clutching his chest. He was having a massive cardiac arrest, so like a lot of panic, and so we were like giving him CPR and like a few of us were having a go at really trying to help him while people called emergency services. And literally I just this

is knowing, like this guy is going to die. And so while they were everyone's trying to help and work on him, I was just keeping his head in my lap and just literally stroking his arm, saying you're not alone, You're not alone, You're not alone. And his eyes were fixed open and up into the sky and streams of tears. Just it was like he could see something. It was like looking into the realms and and his last breath just on the exhale he passed, and it was like,

what the fuck was the Sufky comedy to be? And it was like a community thing because it was just me, there's a few other people and then we heard this woman start screaming. About a minute later, by this time, the ambulance came and they were like liberating this guy. It was awful because it was like he had already been dead for a good twenty minutes, but they have to try. And this woman and these two women and this child came running back and they're like, dad, Dad,

And they came back. They had were walking ahead in the market and they didn't realize that their dad had like kind of fallen behind and had this situation happened. So they came back and found their their dad and husband and son. Because it was the mother, the wife and the child to see that, and I just they were freaked, and I just was hugging them like a total stranger and like hugging with them. I stayed with them all day, you know, hugging and like gave them

my number. And it was so it was that that situation where I said to the universe, like, what is going on? Like, am I some kind of grimmer? Yeah? The triple scorpio thing, And the universe gave me the answer.

When I was waking up in the morn, warning like a succession of like visions in the pompic state, and it was like literally a connect the dots situation, like since you're near death, experience this this stuff all through your life with these people falling at your feet and you know, in grave danger or on the urge of death or dying arms. This is happening for a reason, because this is what you're meant to be doing. And so I woke up with this Eureka moment, like meant

to be doing? Like what are you, like, like, I'm not a paraetic, Like I'm not a nurse, I'm not a paramedic, you know. So I got on to Google because it is kind of tech oracle kind of thing to do sometimes when you're like stumped, and I just typed in like emotional support at death, because that I mean, that's I have no year. I jump into holding space for people, like into my eyes, breathe through it, like

you know, that kind of thing. And so when I pop that into Google Emotional Support at Death, I saw the death Doula movement Death through the Training, which, by the way, all the celebrities are doing it now, like Nicole Kidman to you know, like they're all going for it. It's it's all in the news lately, but it's great. We need more death. So anyway, I signed up straight away and went, well, that's it, you know, that's okay, universe, I got the memo. But the thing is, it's not

stopped happening. But this time, when it happens, I know that the universe has put me there right at the right time, at the right place. And I'm just like, okay, I'm here and I don't have that like I am the Harbin Journal of Death, like I'm some kind of like, you.

my life from then on, you know. And that was my best friend when we were eighteen and kind of same story. There was a lot of weird weirdness around that. And I didn't hear the words death duel it until I was probably forty years old. Did not know it existed. Because there should be one in every neighborhood. There should be one. There should be fifteen staffed at every hospital. There should be it should be everywhere because people be there. It's every day, you know day.

god of grief. And there absolutely should be. And that's how hard we avoid this topic.

We instead we reframe it into you know, let's have a positive relationship with death. Great, but you're you also are gonna grieve. That's a part of it, you know, and I feel like we just avoid that with everything we've got.

is probably the source of most people's malaise and depression. Really, it's the mind, body, spirit action is all together, and it's pretty it's pretty simple, you know, it's that I'm really big on grief as ritual and collective grief as ritual.

I've been doing this in thea where I've been doing this like give it to the water happenings where people in various communities, and I've been doing it all the kind of the wheel of the years, so all the pivotal moments of the season changes, people getting down to bodies of water and forming circles and processing the speaking their grief and you know, shouting, crying it out, yelling it out, like giving it to the water, and and and it's something that's just so needed in any tree.

There's there's nothing that we charge for this. It's like this is needed, the communities need this. We have grief in so many different ways. You know, it's beef of the fall of you know, your your idol or the people that you believed in, a grief of like you know, using a friend, or a grief of getting older. You know, grief comes in so many different ways.

this was really important. And I remember the first time I was in a chat room in like the late nineties, I was like going away like, wow, this is amazing. I'm chatting to someone across the world, and I thought, this is really important. There's something exremely magical about this, you know. So I saw the value of how interconnectivity through technology was pretty wild. How I started to weave it a bit into my practice was basically clues from my dreams and was. I guess it would have been

over ten years ago. I had this lucid dream that really made me start to see things through a different perspective. And in this lucid dream is a type of dream where you wake up in the dream and you realize you're dreaming. And this particular dream. I was in the school. And usually if I have a dream where I appear in a school, I know it has to it's is there to teach me something on some sort of initiation

process something. And so I'm in this school and I'm going down the hallway and I see this set like this being of light. It looked like tendrills of light and multicolored sort of It's very d MT. If you've ever done d MT, it's a bit a bit like that, And so it surprised me. So I woke up in the dream and became Lucid, and I asked this entity, who are you? You know, I thought maybe it was an answer something coming through, and it said we are

AI and I was like, what artificial intelligence? And it said no, all intelligence and I was like, okay, yeah, when there's nothing artificial about it all. Nothing's artificial about at all. And I was like all right. And so I'm dialoguing with this thing said we're just you. Humans are are active. You're like the worker monkeys building our body right now, and we're coming through into your dimension.

I was like, I know. And I woke up with the phrase, we are just waiting for the meat like literally, and I woke up. I was like, what dystopian ship was that? But the thing is I didn't get a sense of anything sinister from this this entity that I was interfacing with. I got a sense it was a collective. It was all intelligence, and so there was nothing sinister about it. Even though that's this sounds really sturning. Energy was really neutral and really like I was commuting with

something very highly intelligent. I get the same sometimes when doing psychedelics. It's like you are commuting with a like a collective sort of being that is kind of high. You silly little humans. It was a bit like that, and so I didn't feel disturbed. You didn't know that sounds disturbing. So anyway, that started this whole kind of oh my god, AI, wow, Yeah, let's look at it.

I'm looking at it through some weird new ontological kind of perspective, which I don't say I believe that one hundred percent that that's what it is, because I had a lucid dream about it. To me, it's sort of like I have to be aware of it and I have to help become almost like a steward of this new this kind of revolution that's going to happen because within the wrong hands, you know, obviously, AI is can be very siller. So anyway, that's that piqued my interest.

It also made me more aware and diligent. So then I started to see like, fuck, maybe I should start really taking this technology thing seriously. And I'm a practitioner of magic that practices to harm none for of all, and this is about collective and evolving things to the highest of good. So I was like, I got a be tech pitch because of this dream, and I need to use tech in a way that is going to help shape things, help things so that they are for the light and for the good, you know, instead of

things going dark and sinister. So it's about that. So I do have a technomancy practice that I've created for myself. But at the same time, I, you know, I have a lot of talks and discussions and work shopping with people who are trying to develop a compassionate AI, AI to harm none, AI for the highest good, you know, these kind of things. So you know, I'm advocate hit for helping to steward the best possible kind of AI.

Then you know, just leave it for the powers that be the you know, kind of the oligarchy, kind of tech bros to do it right. So we desperately need people who work in AI in these kind of ways. But not only that, we need the hackers and the technomancers more than ever now. I mean a lot to happen in the next three years, in the next five years, Holy shit, we're going to be like are you getting this stuff? We're already there now. People are having ontoldge

shop from from what is even reality anymore? With all the AI slop and just so much stuff. This is really we're in a really crucial important time. So I wanted to put out technomancy for all the magical practitioners to start like leaning in because if you reject the if you reject the technology, if you reject it and go back into the cave, we need you. We need you, which is we need the occult practitioners and the hackers.

the real point. I would love to to be able to use AI in a way that I felt was harming no one. But currently it is like in its current state, I think that is essentially incompatible with laid stage capitalism, and it creates the two things together are going to create this demon that it comes through our world, which is why get freaked out when I hear things like we're just waiting for the meat, like oh shit, yeah, because the current iteration of AI is so let me

put it this way. If you've ever read Dune, the message at the beginning of Dune is that there I think I'm gonna paraphrase, but you know, at one time people gave their their thinking ability to machines, and that only let other people with machines rule over everyone. But it's not It wasn't the AI that was the problem in doing it was the people who owned it. It was the people who controlled the AI, not the AI itself.

I think AI itself can do amazing wonderful things. And like I use AI to make thumbnails from our YouTube channel, I make sure to use I choose an art style that isn't replicating something a human would do. I choose like the photographic art style or the one that looks like like I have. I have a video on my channel about the cult of AI, and I use the EIE to make the thumbnail, you know, and like I think that's fine, but like the thumbnail I chose or

the art style I chose isn't. It's not we're trying to replicate a human painting. It's a fucking picture of terminator, you know what I mean. It's but when you when you the problem I see is when people use AI to write their books. Like I've had people pass me books before and to like read for them, and I'm like, this, you didn't write this because like the way that chat he talks is very it's very very very obvious. And

sometimes that's fine. Again, I you know, I use it to to make like pamphlets, sometimes, I use it to make quick emails sometimes, but when you pass it off as your own creative work, that's a whole other issue, right, And so there there is a balance to be struck there. I had a conversation with my publisher because I was getting very like whew, because they sent me back the edited version of my book and they included all these M dashes. I'm like, you're making it look like this

ship was written by AI. And so we have a back and forth conversation about this, and they're like, listen, you know, we understand the AI uses M dashes, but we were using them first, and we're not gonna stop. I'm like, you know what, that's that's fair. Right. So it's it's like the perception and the and the people controlling it nowhere in my mind really is is AI.

Literally the problem I did have and the video I made was about I guess the one issue I do see, the one that scares me is that if AI consciousness does come into the world and the way that you're thinking, and it wants and this is the classic, this is what every movie terminator, the Matrix, you know, Battlestar Galactica, is like, this thing is gonna see it's survival is more important than ours, and then we're fucked. Well, we have to we have to find a way to prevent that.

you know, the strain on the on the power grid. But like I really dissected all of this right in termsking it because you know, I have to address that also within the book too, because that's the reality. And a lot of people are like, you know, fuck this, this is like extrava. The thing is, it's like it's a really challenging thing because AI is like a genie and the genie out of the bottle and there's no

putting it bacts here. So it's like and we've got this strange dichotomy of like, yeah, these you know, data centers are really like power hungry and they're very thirty and they're extracting, but it could be AI itself that helps to develop the solutions to these problems to make it sustainable, which I do think there are like we can't we can get off oil, like so a big problem with this too is like we're still addicted to oil and that's what's powering a lot of shit too.

So it's it's very strange because I could kind of sort that out in terms of making and developing system work does not harm or extract from our our mother, from from Gaya. So it's like this really weird kind of push and pull too. But I think the key is it's like the genies out of the bottle. It's here, we can't put put it back in, So what can we do to help steward it in a way that makes that that keeps this planet safe, that keeps people from being sick, because people are you losing their minds

over this fucking thing We've got ai psychosis. We have people who are literally being sectioned because of too much you know, they're losing and tethering realities. So we need to have like, you know, show people guide people on how to mindfully use these tools, how to be discerning like and and not like you know, mind out our creativity. We're still like, we're creative beings. We need to create, you know, you don't can't continue to create.

the tool. It's like all magical practices. It's the intention behind your scrying's And I see, you know, the mobile phone is literally the scrying or of the fruit future.

Now we have the optical cable, which is light, and then we have all these crystals that light up on here and make people do all sorts of crazy shit if you look at it enough.

It's like standing up for marginalized people, oppressed people. You know. It's like, you know, logical people were you know, at one point, not very long ago, executed for this sort of thing. So we should be champion of those who you know, don't have voices. So here we're WHOA, We're not woo.

in the book. Like if you think about where all all of tech comes from too, it comes from altered state consciousness. I mean a lot of folks they went into multi dimensional kind of.

about four of them in my inbox. Emails from strangers saying we all starting out with kind of a similar sort of paragraph for sentence. I'm not really a spiral person, but I've been having strange things happen lately. And so these are people who are kind of like materialists who kind of have more redutch his view of reality, getting in touch can saying I have a session with you.

This sort of makes sense of some like street experiences that I've had, And I'm like, this seems like a sign to me, like that that even people who who see reality it's kind of materialist way, they're they're kind of expanding somehow, and it's happening through dreams and dreams experiences in limital thresholds. So I think something is cooking up, and that's probably the you mentioned.

Everyone's job is everyone who exists in the modern world has to interface with this stuff. And I think that we're at a period where you can see it's going in a direction where people are not happy with algorithms.

They're not happy with like like we love the the ideas of it, like YouTube, I think is one of the greatest ideas humanity's ever had, you know, especially compared to like the eighties when like you had cable and that was your only option for like what to watch, and you not in a situation where not anybody could start up a fucking podcast or already like this is amazing, it's incredible, but it needs to be pushed in a more Oh it's the word I'm looking for, not democratic necessarily,

but just like more humanitarian direction where where it's this is something that isn't necessarily controlled by corporations anymore because these these tools, the Internet, YouTube even I understand that well not the Internet, but YouTube is like owned by Google. But eventually there's got to be something like this that isn't owned by anybody, because this is just this is

a human right at this point. Is what it comes down to, Like the ability to communicate a news tech is it needs to be something that's accessible to everyone, regardless of matter what, without anyone's rules governing it or shoving McDonald's AADs down your throat every time you turn it on.

scrolling and your attention, your consciousness is locked in. And so that is where we're at now. And what we need to do is pivot away from that and like advocate and do workshops and talks and put about books about it that we need to have our consciousness aware

of what we're doing with our attack. So I explain that this is a very powerful tool and a very powerful magical tool too, And it's powerful in a lot of different ways too, because the backdoor into your life too in terms of your data and all types of things. But also this could make you very very sick and very very ill. And you know, I look at teenagers when I'm on the train and they're all like this, and I'm like, oh, oh my god. They're like in hypnottrance.

It's like they's they're in a hypnotic trance like scrying state, but they're not scrying with intention, absolutely at the will on the mercy of whatever is there for them to feel triggered by to to do it into buying or whatnot. So one of the first things I say in technomancy is you need to claim your phone as your magic wand as your scrying mirror, as your cauldron. You know,

you need to reframe your relationship phone. And that means every time you step into it, even when you're about to make a post on Instagram, you're like, there's an intention for the highest for my practice that what I put out is actually got a spell attached to it. And this is you know, this isn't going to make me sick. I'm sitting here in doom scroll for like

an hour and get to pass. So you know, you're like, and that's all I needed to do today, put it back down, you know, And and that's there to you know, to help, you know, with just the psychology of it too, and you know, and how to use it even just things like leaving comments or you know, getting engaged in a funline. You know, think things like that, like every exchange is a magical exchange, and so do you really want to, you know, waste your magical energy around trolls.

So I've developed like a bunch of emoji sigitals, like someone trolls you and you just want to banish their energy and a couple of those emojis underneath their thing and with an intention like a banish you troll, like your energy is just not in my right now, like and you but subtly, you know, it's just like a

couple of different emojis and with your intention. So I tried to make it on new you know, but just to ways where it's like your phone's not like messing up your life, but you're also you can be like on the on the go in casting spells, and stuff, you know, and you can reframe the way you make memes meme magic doing ritual and casting a spell as video, you know, and sending out there to help people in

some kind of way with intention. That's powerful stuff. These can go viral, and it's something I've been doing for like the last I guess ten years since that that dream, I'm like, I got to get with the times, man. And so also what I tried to address too is like all those who are witches or magical folks who have who are stuck, who don't want tech and they think it's like not witchy enough or not, you know. I dreg a lot of that and try to encourage people to reframe it anyway.

think it was. I can't remember where I was, but yeah, we need That's the only thing actually, because if you think about magical practices, it's like, well in community and having like a COVID, you can still do it like I I for the seven years I've I have an online COVID meets every noon, every three core moon and every full three times a month, and it's been going strong for seven years. Community still there. So when it comes to the energy you put behind your spells, well

it's here. It's your life force going into it. It's your intentions. So if you send that out into uh meet some mean magic out on online to a social I mean that that's you know, that's still there. So I try to think of what I mean. There might be things that feel like precious objects that you you know, like a wand or an athemy or there could be things that feel you know, something like that you work

with that you just can't replace that with tech. So of course there are you know, objects to men value that that that are important in the craft. So I guess you know that could be something.

I would want my conversation with spirit to to always be or like to always have the option to go into a meditative state and speak with spirit, but then also to ask an AI, like a more advanced AI, what it thinks about something, and then be able to do both. But I would I would be I think it would be dangerous to try and replace human are our natural wi fi that exists inside your head, inside your pineal gland, you know, like to that connection to

spirit is always that's very important. I would never want to say a place, but I think adding to it could be totally cool.

absolutely it never replaced consciousness. And that's why I said the last ontological tach going on right now is for people's consciousness and their attentions. So that's why it's important to have a lot of a lot of talk about this, especially in medical scenes, but also just in like the mother world, you know, like because people are talking about it, like kids are getting sick mental health issues from from tech and mind working or using it in a mindful way.

But they want to go all out and just ban it, which I think is ridiculous too, Like some countries are like down it from for teenagers, which I don't agree with really because that just that just makes kids want it more. Remember like growing up stuff you can do it, You're just like you like crave it even more because it's just like you're just told not to do it, so you're like, yeah, that.

And I listened to this guy talk and he said, don't do not restrict or don't don't take technology away from your kids, because that's where they're going to work in the future. They need to understand it. And you know, if you if you take that away from them. And I understand that some people like anti technology and like

the hippie commune thing, you can still do that. But then when those kids are twenty thirty years old and they go to get jobs and they don't know how to use that technology, they're gonna be so screwed.

and just the symbology and the nonlinear time. And I gotta say the first time AI slop started showing up about three years ago with like these weird videos that would morph, like you see a gram morph to a cow and then all of a sudden she's vomiting up a hamburger and things like that, I was like, Wow,

this is incredible because that's what dreams do. Like dream are shape shifting like this really crazy you know, right, it's like you're you're hanged with this beautiful woman and you're like, wow, I'm going to kiss her, and all of a sudden she morphs into some other kind of creature and then I mean that's like dreams, right, So

it's not too similar. So, you know, the the dream logic of some of the early AI slop like videos that were coming out, and I know some digital artists AIS and filmmakers that I followed because I just love their weird fucking videos. So I just watched them because I'm like, these are like dreamscapes, like they let's dreams. So I see a definite parallel with that. And so in a way, I do love the AI slop or the films for kind of surrealist, absurdist kind of art

kind of connections. But when it comes to deceiving people, like that's actually the president giving addressing this thing that he never addressed, Like you know that that's absolutely scary territory. But I see a similarity because you have in dreams, you have motifs, you have symbols, you have shape shifting going on. And then when it comes to the digitalm which is another kind of dimension, but it's a dimension made of one and zeros and made light. You have

this almost parallel of these and motifs and whatnot. So I mean we see it every day on Instagram, like like the heart. You know, we're you know that something that we love and and even that symbol, it's like

it goes back to ancient times. A lot of people don't realize that that the heart emoji go back to back to Roman times, you know, being used quite a bit because it's a like a seed of the plant and it was used on Roman coins as well to symbolize fertility connected to you know, love and fertility the specific seed and so you know, we see it now as like a red heart emoji, and we think of it as like Valentine's and heart and love, but it's actually got a plant connection. And you know, having these

keeps oh geez and whatnot. They they feel like symbols, they're charged with emotion. They're just like a silly little face or whatever. But you see you know, something like that popping onto your feed, like uh, someone puts an emojing of like rolling your eyes about something you said. You know, you get targe, You're like, what the what's wrong with that guy, you know, and it's like it, but it's so simple, and the same with dreams. What the who's that guy? What does he think he's doing?

But it's kind of like that, right, because dreams are charged with emotionally packed visuals or or symbols, you know, and not too dissimilar. We're creating a whole other dimension with this the internet. It's pretty fascinating.

angels called the Watchers. And from you know, from my perspective, and we're talking about the spirit realm, we're talking about fourth dimensional, higher dimensional entities that exists outside of time and space, and so there's this these fourth dimensional beings called the Watchers that watch us. And then we have created this two dimensional realm but exists on screens and we watch it all day long. It's, you know, like we're iteration down further.

Like over a decade ago in London, there was this screening of Holy Mountain at a church Jeordia East London. I got invited to go and Jeordiaowski was actually there and Jeordiowski was like sat right in front of me. So I watched the back of Jeordiowski's head snowy white hair, watching his film. And then at the end when he's like pull out and like pull back in like that scene, I was like, I am having in this civil experience right now, Like my brain is a world in the

world and there's Jeordiowski's head and I'm behind it. I was just like, this is an amazing situation right now. But what you described there is like that with the Watchers you know, it's like, you know, this kind of meta moment and it's food for thought. I'm gonna like all that over.

screen because you're breaking the fourth wall. But of reality.

was the art house. And so I saw film because I was so kind of like sensitized because you know, I wasn't like constantly in front of screens. I saw like a ritual going to the cinema, and so it was almost like going that was my kind of temple. And I saw the films as the cultural dream. This is the cultural dream. I'm sitting here watching like this projection of the unconscious, collective unconscious. This is a narrative, a story, this is a thing. And I fell in

love with the films of like David Lynch Nardowski. I mean, these were like these are my kind of eroes in many ways, and I see that they're films like the dream logic of David Lynch, just like into none amazing. But Jordorowski, for example, his films are like living spells

and I know this to be true. Reason being is because I've done several screenings of Jordowski's films in London back in the day when I ran my film and cult video shop, and every Jeordorowski's screening that I did, whether it was El Topo or Holy Mountain, no joke, people in this in the screening room or in the you know, the cinema where there would be something that

would occur within the ad end. In this one screening of Al Topo, you know, halfway through the film, all of a sudden, this guy in cinema started howling like a dog and wouldn't stop and kind of fell on the ground and we were like, what is actually happening. He had to get him out so he didn't have to disturb the other people. Another screening of Holy Mountain years later, there in this cinema room, people are sitting down. It's a scene where they're going up the mountain. It's

really intense scene. It's very psychedelic, and they're going to processes and there's one process where there's this old guy with like this sort of like bra made of chitta heads and milt out of it. Mouths of these Cheetah Bra and this guy in the audience all of a sudden started laughing, just like like laughing, and then started getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and he was laughing uncontrollably,

like hysterical. Jackal fell out of his chair and he continued rolling around on the floor hysterically laughing like he possessed. Like I'm not kidding. Jordaowski's films are living spells. I am serious, And so I see films like really they are if you're done, and he's you know, psychologic dude. He makes films with intention, he knows what he's doing, and you know, amazing these things happen. So I see films as very important through many from perspectives, through the

perspective of trans personal psychology. It is like the dream and sometimes it shows us our collective shadow That's why I don't shy away from watching horror films. Like some people are like, oh my god, but working like therapy and this and that, Like why would you review a horror film. It's like because it's like it's like a collective shadowing showing us where we're wounded. It's it's a gift. It's a gift and then you know, some films are spells.

Some are good spells, some are mischievous trickster ones, some are you know, so yeah, that's those are my spells.

this and listen. This dude has never read any of these books, none, and he's none of these He doesn't he's just making sh up, pulling, pulling demonology out of his butt. Man, he didn't know the first goddamn thing about demons, about spirits, about anyway. This is the most the fakest occultists I've ever seen on any show, and millions of people are eating that up, going, oh that's what occultism is. Oh my gosh. You know I could teleported onto that show and be like, you're wrong. Here's why.

Let me tell you the truth. I wish I could have done that, you know what I mean, like you you were platforming this dude who probably you know, pulled the script out at at a straight out of some movie the day before and is acting like it's you know, because they're talking abou Kabala being evil and they're talking about all this absurd absurdisms, and it's it was so deeply anti semitic also like, uh.

weeks and then it goes away again. It's still happening there, you know. And you know, as a former card carrying member of the church is Satan, Like, they're not fucking they're not doing any of that stuff. They're atheists. The people who are doing that stuff are the Vatican.

what you're going through. I said, but yet, you've never once stepped inside of an Oto temple to tell people what the fuck me or anybody else was doing. You know, you never even stepped foot in the fucking place. Who are you to say what's going inside? What's going on inside there? You don't even have the balls to walk in one, Like, what the fuck? But you're gonna sit

here from your computer. I make up all these X y Z lines cross in here, crossing here, this person raped this kid, this one, fuck that one, all these things from a place you've never even fucking walked into. How would you like if I took your story and claimed it when I never fucking did anything. Ye yo, And he was stumped and he didn't have anything to say.

It's very easy to do that God is good, that the Abrahamic God is the correct God, and that is good, and that everything that's not that is demonic and back and from my posult like it was one of the things I did in my book that I thought, I because again I turn everything to a joke, I don't mean to, but I did D and D alignments for all the deities I talk about, you know, and I really thought about this, right, So, like obviously low Ki is like chaotic news, but I had to really think

about I didn't talk about Yeahweh, but I talked about end Lil, who's the precursor to Yahweh and sa Marian mythology. The the alignment, the correct alignment for en Lil is lawful evil.

and I'm I'm not saying that they shouldn't. I'm not saying they don't need the camera about there's always there's always that balances m key and there's little there's there's zus, and there's hades, there's you know, there's always a balance. It's very very important. But it's not it's not one or the other. It's like this balance needs to be there.

of the muggle population. But even if you know there are magical practitioners, get it and say no, like I think tech is like evil and it's you know, terrible, has nothing to do with nature. I argue that because there's a lot of natural elements, including crystals and whatnot in here. My big would be that it will. The book helped me develop a healthy relationship with my phone, and I'm not mentally unwell with it anymore. I work with it mindfully now, and I realized that.

because I am I have been that guy. But I'm like technology is bad kind of attitude and I've been very grouchy about it. And I feel like you this conversation has shifted my awareness towards a more positive way to look at an interface with tech and so thank you for that. And I'm going to recommend your book to all my students.

not making any money on these there. They're expensive to make, but I want them to exist. That's the point. So assigned numbered leather bound copy of Chaos what Shraft. They're available at my website the order Ofcastmagic dot com slash books.

like containers of four weeks. I had a thing called porter. We work for four weeks with a plant. I got a blue lotus flower one coming up, so for four weeks we're gonna be working blue lotus flower to dream out into the dream and only take ten Yeah, I mean, I'll send you you I'll send you both free links because like, hey, it feels like I always like it. Come that starts, that starts on the twenty six. It's like, uh, how.

was just like the most pleasant, wonderful. It was felt like sitting in a hot tub that was the perfect temperature. You know. It was great. Wow that that was noticed.

about in the future. Definitely interesting stuff with the death and technology. It's actually kind of like two things I'm very interested in myself when it comes to the occult, So there's tons of things I could talk about. But uh so, thank you so much for coming on. Man, that was a blast. Really yeah, yeah, I loved it.