You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen? What I Welcome back to the Occult Rejects. Today's guest is Eliza and she is a tower reader, tarrant teacher, astrologer, and lifelong writer, and graduate of the Iowa Writers Workshop. She's the author of the brand new Tarot of the Unconscious, Uncovering the hidden link between psychoanalysis and the Cards. Her previous two books are The Little Book of Saturn and A Mystical Practical Guide to Magic. She's a psychoanalysis in
training in New York City. You can find her at Elisa Einhorn dot com or Elisa of Brooklyn on Instagram. And yes, she does do readings and she's also available for in person psychoanalytic treatment. Now, before we introduce her, let me introduce Judith. What is going on? Judith?
I'm fine. Thank you for having me today, Nick, Alisa, I look forward to our discussion and for everybody else. You can find me on spreaker x I'm sorry, yes X and YouTube as the Loom awesome.
Thank you so much for making you. Judith, I really appreciate it. And Alisa, please let everybody know where they can I mean I already kind of mentioned where they can find you. There's anything else you'd like to promote or say, or you know, please go ahead.
Well, I'm happy to be here, first of all, and I'm happy to be a reject today with you, with you, it's fun. Anything I want to promote? Huh? Well, I do have a new book that's coming out. It's supposed to be June first, if everything stays in alignment, June first, is the data comes out? Oh, you mentioned the title I wrote, Taro of the Unconscious. Yeah, yes, oh, what a exciting thing.
It hasn't come out yet.
No, so it's pre ordered time. Pre orders make the publisher so happy. So you could make a small, smallish independent occult publisher very very happy if the book interests you by clicking on that buy now link wherever you see it.
Oh that's great. Yeah. You know what's funny. When I received the book, I just assume that they're out and I forget that they can send them to me early.
So yeah, I'm glad you got it.
Yeah yeah, yeah weiser, yep, yeah nice? Oh yeah, was there any I think I might have interrupted you? Is there anything else you wanted to say? I'm so sorry.
That's now. That's that's the main thing. Also, I think of new and new and exciting promotions.
Real quick, just because I'm interested that. I just thought of it. Now, have you been in New York your whole life?
No, I'm actually not from here, Although I get accused of it a lot. People call me a New Yorker. No, I've been in New York since two thousand and one. I was here for nine to elevens. I was here that January. Yeah, and then I've been here mostly since that time.
Very nice, Okay, No, I was just wondering because all three of us are from New York. But that's cool. Cool?
Am I am? I a real New Yorker after being here for that long? Does it count?
I don't know.
Yes, Yeah it does.
Judith says, yes.
I could have no idea. I think it sounds long enough. It sounds long enough to me. But I guess how long does it take for somebody to switch over? Because I've been in North Carolina for two years? I got a couple more years, I guess before I'm a North Caro not with.
Your accent, for reverse doesn't work in New York. You're always in New Yorker.
I think that's true.
So at Lisa, like I asked everybody on the show pretty much, how did you find yourself? Like, how did you end up getting into taro in astrology? How did that happen?
It was a twist of fate, you know, I remember it well. Actually, do you remember AOL? I was asking you if you're young enough to remember AOL and those discs and the dial up. So this was then in the those early days of the Internet. Yeah, I had a friend who was into astrology. I didn't know anything about it. There wasn't that much astrology on the web. It was so new. And then by chance, if you believe in chance, I wound up on something like I was about to say, I Googled. I didn't Google because
Google didn't exist, but I what was it? Asked Jeeves? Do you remember? Asked? This is like, sorry, this is gen X nostalgia times, so, you know, very old search engine. I look up my son's sign, and you know what came up. I think her name is Susan Miller. She's probably still around, like this big astrologer, Susan Miller. She has this cy called astrology Zone. And I read my
horoscope and it was so accurate. And this was back in what was this two thousand, I think probably two thousand and three, something like that, and I just I couldn't believe it. And then again I went on a search and internet search and I found it in person class. So I went for years to an astrology class every week in person, learned astrology. And then he also that teacher also taught us a little tarot. So that was the beginning. And I never thought I would do it
for a living. I just thought it was cool. It was so accurate. I started getting readings from him. I just I felt it explained me in my life so succinctly accurately. And then that that was it. I was kidnapped by by the occult.
That is that is really like that's amazing, how like you even your experience with like getting interested in it and then being able to find an in person class right away, Like that's a great experience. Like you didn't have to go like I guess shift through the garbage on the internet.
You know exactly, there was no garbage or different garbage.
Yeah, back then you didn't have to go through the internet. You had that magazine called Apex.
Oh, I didn't know that was that local or that was in New York.
You would, you would get it in Now they use it as trash bins, those yellow bins with the free magazines on every court, and then you just grab one of them. And they had every Every different class you wanted to go to was in there. And I think they did have astrology classes in there as well, in there probably.
And crystal skulls. I remember this place that I used to go to. They would host all kinds of things. It's not it's not there anymore, but there was astrology, you know, astrology and reiki and tarot and all kinds of New agey stuff. But my teacher was a high magician. You had mentioned off air, Judith that you were, well, I don't know if I should be allowed.
To say this. No, I do say it all the time. I'm into high magic, Okay. I do consider myself a practicing high magician, okay, because that.
Was his thing too. But this place, like it had all kinds of it's just like a circus of just weird, are we like? I can swear right, I don't know, yes, okay, and at all kinds of weird shit. And always remember the the crystal skulls. So you could take your astrology class and you could go to a meditation class, and then if you wanted, you could do something really bizarre.
That is cool. Is there any shops in Brooklyn anymore.
That's outside of Botanica's.
There are Botanica's. There are I can think of. Yeah, just one shop that sells dried herbs. But so you mean what you mean a place like that for classes.
Or like in occult shop at all, like out in Brooklyn right.
Now, I think closed.
Oh that was the one I was trying to think of in my head and I couldn't remember, and I was like, I don't know if it's still open. I remember that place. Yeah that's what. Yeah, that was like that was like well known for a minute, like that was kind of a staple for any practicing magician in Brooklyn.
They went, yeah, sure was. I think it's gone.
You had enchantments too in Manhattan.
Oh I've been to that. Yeah. Yeah, that's a wild store.
And down the street you have flower Powers.
Hers. Yes, that's awesome.
Yo.
Their arms were sick. They had like really excited, but like their rbs were really nice.
Flower Power is great. That's that's my place, flower Power.
Yeah, you know I really like that stuff. Yeah, that's funny. Wow memories. Thanks.
Do you know what happened to uh, the cat?
I don't, but I think it's been a few years since they've closed.
I wonder if COVID screwed them up.
COVID screwed a lot of places.
Especially small businesses like that. Yeah, unless you're like money wondering, you really probably can't make it through that type of situation. No, you know why I'm saying that. It was funny. I was at my family's house yesterday. We were talking about just like places closing, and my father was like, yo, he's like what he brought up a situation with me where during COVID there was say all these places shut down and then eventually they started reopening and like this
store that was there for I should you not? It was like a VCR repair store, And I was like, how did you survive that and open back up? I'm like, come on, that's swoom. You gotta be doing something else. I mean, I don't know, won't go there? Yeah, what are you getting five customers a year? Like? Something else is going on to keep that store open. But we're
get we're getting off the topic now. I did want to ask you, uh, Elisa, so we could give for the listeners who may not know your work yet, how would you describe the thread that connects astrology, tarot, magic, writing, and psychoanalysis in your life?
Oh?
Wow, take as much time as you want.
What a question? How would I describe the thread? Well, so you've got me literally wanting to describe a thread like it's this, it's this, Uh, this is the width of the thread, and this is the color of the thread. I know there is a thread because I do them all, so it does exist. You know, writing was there first because I was always a writer, and then decades later the astrology, and then the taro, and then the magic,
and then I mean the psychoanalysis. I don't know if you're well versed in astrological transits or you know the listeners. Some folks maybe known, But for me, psychoanalysis was a Urinus transit. When Urinus comes to your chart, you know, when it's aspecting certain planets, when it moves through a certain house. I mean, it's always going to change your life. But for me it was quite literal because Urinus in Taurus was my ninth house. Ninth House has to do
with publishing, It has to do with higher education. Urinus is weird, unexpected, out of the blue, and I went back to school. Maybe it's all It might all be Urinus transits. Actually, in my life, have you ever noticed that that some people, at least on the outside, seem to have very their path seems kind of orderly, orderly organized quotes like I'm thinking of certain people, that's just straight lines, so to speak.
Everything seems to always transition.
Well, yeah, yeah, transition. Well, they're not on the verge of homelessness, they're not discovering astrology, their relationships are not toxic. It's just kind of chill, I guess. And then there's the Uranian people, and it's always seem all over the place, but they they are not It could be yeah or.
They, but they tend to be you. They tend to be thinkers because it's like they put things together that you wouldn't think would fit in perfectly.
Hmmm. That might be what Nick was. That might be when Nick was getting at He's like, how do all these things relate? And I'm thinking, like I don't know. I don't because I don't. I haven't analyzed it. I haven't thought about it in that way. But but you know what, that's what the book is about. Actually, the book is about that. I went back to school and I thought I thought I was going to leave something behind, and then I realized that they actually.
He brought it all forward with you. I what you kind of like brought it all forward with you, and you know, kind of yeah, there was an alchemist and transmuted it into what you're what you're doing now exactly.
I like that. That's a good metaphor. Yeah, like I thought, I thought my life was going to be at odds or in pieces or fragmented, and I think I still feel that way a bit. But then I just discovered, oh, this it's not at odds. Like you you really can you really can be yourself whatever you've been, whoever you are, and do something new. So old dogs learning new tricks, as they say, do you.
Think you we defined the map what most people consider a general map of where you're supposed to go, and you just said, you know what, I don't want to do this straight line. I want to just do some I want to make some waves.
No, I didn't have I don't think I had any choice. It wasn't a decision for me. It's never a decision. It's just life happens.
Can you can you band on that?
Before before we started recording, we were talking about whether you were a Libra or a Virgo, and I feel like I feel like I'm feeling them both as you asked me that question. Now I don't remember what the question was.
No, I'm just asking you to expand on like you didn't have a choice.
Oh yeah, yeah, I didn't decide. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't. Uh, I didn't decide one day I'm going to be an astrologer. I'm going to take an astro. It was all very uh oh astrology. My you know, my friend is into it. I read something and it was accurate. Let's see, like it's all on a lark, kind of like the fool Card. I feel like my life has been very fool Card more than Emperor, like right, like Emperor is very structured.
So it was it wasn't a plan. It definitely wasn't a plan to be weird or to get into these things like it just kind of happened. Or people will say like I didn't find it. It found me and even I was learning astrology, I never thought I would do it for a living. And I actually still remember the day. I was a pet sitter for a long time. I was dog walking and cat sitting and doing other kinds of writing because I was a poet, writing poems and writing plays. And I remember the day in Union Square.
I don't know if it's still there. There was a McDonald's in Union Square and I was just sitting there because it was raining. I still wanted Okay, it's still there, and I just needed to get dry and just get out of that terrible New York rain. And I was just so frustrated. And I remember saying to myself, I was frustrated with poetry. I was frustrated with all my creative writing, saying to myself, you know what, I'm going
to blog. I'm going to blog and all my writing is going to have to be about astrology because I need it to I need my life to be less frustrating. So I'm going to put all my eggs in that basket. And at the time, that was like a really that was a strange thing to do because not that many people were doing it. But I did make that decision then that there was something in this other world for me that was calling to me. I don't know if I made any sense at.
All, No, No, you did. You did. It actually made me think about myself a lot, and you just oh tell us, well just even for me, like how like this was like something I kind of got interested in, and I might have had like a few books trying to learn a little bit of stuff, and then like some one day I was just like, you know, why didn't I see if there's like a like an order
or something I can join. And I was a member of the OTO for a while, so like even kind of how like you were saying that you ended up like that's why I thought it was kind of interesting that you you kind of like jumped right into like hands on stuff, And even for myself, I did kind of quickly make the change from like finding things on the internet, finding a few books and then I just
joined an order like real quick. And I even just remember then like before I did that before, like when I went to the OTO and then you know, made the decision that I'll keep coming back. I even just remember then like like I know this is going to be like if I'm going to do this. It's going to be serious. They're going to make a part of my life. And it just it was very much like kind of just like just happened. I don't know, it's
hard to explain. It was just very a very quick process for me, and I think, I, you know, in some ways, I'm very lucky that I got, you know, kind of exposed as much as you know, I, I guess I don't promote the organization that much. There was a lot of value out.
Of joining it for me, and now here you are.
Did this exactly. And I never even when I left there, did I even have the idea too much or the idea at all that I'd be doing this. And then five years later it's like, how did It's just wild. It's like I just went on. I jumped on a roller coaster and just let it take me where I went.
Hmm. Yeah.
The Fool card, Oh.
I fully played the Fool Yes?
Or the Tower or the Wheel of Fortune.
I like the Wheel of Fortune. I actually liked that card a lot. I like that one.
Number ten.
It's a good one. Yeah. It was either that or the Empress that I was later on we'll get to and maybe just ask you to kind of go over a little bit. But I did have something I think is great about having you on. Then other Tarot people that I've had on recently and didn't realize how many of them were into Young before I had them, all Oh okay, So I'm happy that I have you on because you kind of look at it in a fruity and for how have you said? Psychoanalysis?
Yeah, yeah, Young, he's permeated. Is there a terror book that doesn't have some cabalistic framework which is not explained and probably not understood by the author and Jungian you know, no shade on the grates even though I just said that, but you know, I mean if you're a Tarot person and you know how it has perfumed, uh you know kabbalistic?
Oh you just said that.
And Siriah. And also to the YouTubers who who added in or you know wherever they're being heard and they can't even pronounce the Hebrew words, give me a fucking break. There's a basic Hebrew before you're gonna do that talk about the tree of life.
If I was able to do it, If I was able to do it, anybody can do it.
I'm sure yours is perfect.
I love how you said that. I will always try to mention that on the show. And anybody ever have on for Taro more times out of they normally say no, but I always do Askoul, do you attribute to cards to the cabalistic tree of life? I mean that's how I study.
People study the Kabbala for decades for you know, your entire freaking life.
I love it. I love it.
And and Taro Tanya is showing up with her cabalistic attributions and her book. It's like, no, just stop, stop it all all right, you got me all riled up now. But I guess I went there because it was Jung also has that place as he the water. Basically, I'm talking about like watered down, barely understood or very very watered down ideas that they just they get cherry picked and show up. So it's weird, right, The history of Tarot books is kind of weird in that way.
Yeah, yeah, but uh, I guess yeah. And that question that I had your book connects Taro with Freudian psychoanalysis. What was the moment where those those two worlds stopped feeling separate to you and kind of came together or was it like that or did you see it like that from the beginning.
I didn't see it like that from the beginning. And the book does talk. I mean, that is what the book is about. And I and I also say in the book anything from Freud or psychoanalysis. I am just scratching the surface. I mean, I'm in training. I'm not a you know, I'm not the expert of the world here. But I had no idea that that was going to happen because I went back to school. I went into psychoanalytic training, thinking that these two worlds had nothing to
do with each other. And then I realized that that wasn't the case. See, I shouldn't give it all away, so people should get the book and then find out what the secrets are. But I just I fell in love with Freud. I had never read him. I mean, I knew who he was. Of course, I've heard of him. I knew some basic basic basics. I knew, oh, there's this thing called the unconscious. But it wasn't until I read him in translation. Mind you, that's how most of
us read him. We're not reading in the original. But I was reading Freud, and one thing led to another, and there are certain pivotal moments.
Okay, what did psychoanalysis kind of reveal, Like when you started getting into that, did it Did it open up tarot to you? Like? Did you see a whole new world of taro once you started getting into that too? More?
No, it didn't. Okay, it didn't work in that direction. I think it just worked in the in the other one, in the opposite direction. That that how this idea of free association. Freud's idea of free association basically talk therapy, that letting your mind wander I mean I'm speaking in very you know, plain English here, but letting your mind wander from from thing to thing, that there was value in that and that it would lead you someone like
it's not just gibberish. When I work with patients at the clinic or i'm training, they'll say that, and I'll say it too when I'm in my own analysis, like, oh, I'm just you know, where am I going with this? People think that they're getting off track, But someone who's trained to listen, we see the patterns because there are patterns. We are understanding what they don't understand. You know, the person lying on the couch what they don't understand or
you know, when I'm in my analysis. And then I saw that that was what we need to do with Taro. And really what we already do is free associate, and you know what people are terrified to do it. You know.
That's uh, it's very interesting because I think that held me back from ever looking at Taro, because I already figured like just certain ways that it was always like structured. It told to me that I'm supposed to see the card. Sometimes I just didn't get it, and I just figured like, well if I don't, okay, why even bald Like, I'm just looking at it wrong. So that Tarot completely differently.
So then this.
Book is for you, Nick. This book is for you because it says, throw away all the books. They're interesting, you can read them. I give me. I give interpretations in the book, but I also say, it's your personal associations. That's that's a gold mine.
Yeah, that's a form of getting out of your way. Yes, I do have a question for you, Nick, was that before or after you became familiar with the Tree of Life before?
Yes? Yeah, Once I came across the Tree of Life and I was like, well again just going back to even just to Hoodie Lodge. As soon as you walked in and if you sat down on that one side, you had that big picture of the tarot cards on the Tree of Life. And I remember seeing that. I was like, ah, I love you know, Cabala. I was like,
I got to try it out this way. And even hearing a lot of people there again another good reason why I say that going there, a lot of people would say just meditate on the card and let whatever comes in, man, you know, and that kind of like it was like, all right, well, you know, I guess there is some free will to this now to an extent, you know, and if I can try to look at it in a kabalistic sense, it's just for some reason that just popped out at me at that point.
To go back to Freud real quick, Eliza, when you first got into astrology, because I know you have the inner conversation and the outer conversation when it comes to astrology. And did did the people you the people and I don't want to say experts, but the people who were already involved in it hint that this was a connection.
Wait that which was a connection?
I got lost the Freud the Freud philosophy and Taro and astrology.
Oh no, no, no, no, In fact, it was it was the opposite, or I assumed that it would be the opposite that in that if you're I mean, I think this runs through just psychology in general, psychology, psychoanalysis, that these aren't I think there's a divide. These aren't spiritual places. Maybe there's some where it may merge, but it's taboo because psychology or psychoanalysis, this is science. It's not the where the occult belongs, the occult, magic, ghosts, divination, all that stuff.
So astrology was considered a like more like pseudo instead of actual science.
Oh for sure.
Now people are taking it as science astrology, Yeah, Tara, not so much.
I did want to ask not to keep keep you going here.
With you you can harp.
Freyd against Young because so that it gets you going. So it's not like I'm trying to, like, you know, fuel your fire. But I understand you just probably passionate on this. What does Freud give Tower readers that Young does not?
Well, you know, I don't I can't say for sure what Young does give Taroor readers. I just know that his water down ideas found their way into terror books. You know, I can't I can't speak to that. I mean, no, how do I put this? No one has to abide by my way? You know, no one has to like Freud, agree with Freud. Think Freud was right about the psyche, you know, like it's it's there's no conversion necessary here.
But what do you do when you give yourself a reading, or when or when you give a reading for someone else you pull a card? Are you really gonna marry the meaning in a book? Or are you gonna go within? I think Freud gives us that. Does young give us that too? Maybe I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
No, I get that, I what you're saying.
But it's it's a more. It's an idea of a personal unconscious. I mean when Freud, when Freud was analyzing his patience dreams, the key to those dreams was in the telling. Their telling of the dreams would lead us to meaning like the person not necessarily which is I mean this I know about YOUNGA is a Jungian idea of this collective unconscious. I'm not talking about a collective unconscious in this book. I'm talking about you, like the reader,
the person. So here's Nick, here's Judith. They're going to pull some cards for themselves or for each other, and that meaning is going to be personal. And that at the very least is on the same level as oh, well, you know the Empress. You look it up in a book and it says fertility and creativity. And I try in the book to model this, like in my interpretations in my tarot spreads, to show people like, see, look you can do this. You can come up with your
own interpretations upright, reversed whatever direction you want. Does that make sense?
Yeah, reminds me. Yeah, that was kind of reminding me of me. That's what I was laughing because I was even thinking, like I remember once I finally was like, oh you know now I actually kind of want to play with Tyro.
I was.
I think I was using Donald Michael Craig's book like his spreads, but I was trying to attribute it like kacabolistically. It's just oh I know that name. Why do I know that thirteen or in High Magic?
Yeah, oh I think I do have that book.
Yeah, that's all. It's such a staple for a lot of people. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I just brought back memories.
For a lot of listeners, that's usually the first one.
Yeah, that was my first one. That was my and it was actually suggested to me by a wick and witch. But they knew that I was more leaning towards ceremonial magic because they were like, I think you would actually be more into the ceremonial magic. So when I was kind of like asking them, like, you know, where should I go if I'm interested in this stuff, and they're like, you just your personality and what you're interested in already,
the like you look at the Oto and Golden Dawn. Probably, I was like, all.
Right, but a big book from what I remember.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was yeah, for sure, for sure there is a lot in there, you know what. I was having a thought, Uh, I'm trying to I hope I can like word it perfectly because they kind of did forget about a little bit of it. But I was wondering, like, you know how like sometimes you can definitely see how there's a little bit of different
styles in Taro. You know, obviously you'll get some people that are much more kind of like telling you what's gonna go on in your outside world, and then you have ones that actually do kind of go in and tell you what's going on inside, maybe ahead or such
certain situations or whatever. Do you think that could even be like a reason why some people may not catch like maybe like Freud's influence or see how that can match because just the simple fact of you do have a lot of people that aren't even using taro to go inside yourself anyway when they do reading.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not.
Trying to knock those people. I'm just saying just the different styles. If you even understand what I'm getting at with that.
Maybe, well I think you're talking about the difference between prediction and everything else.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly exactly.
Because I'm not anti prediction.
Oh no, novenation.
I do it myself in readings. But this book is about a different way, another way to approach it.
Okay, No, I was just wondering if you ever thought maybe that could have something to do with it.
That people don't want to be like the hermit card and look inside.
Yeah.
Yeah, Like I said before, it's scary, like who wants to do that? I mean, I think some people are inclined to right. Some people are inclined to introspection. You know, it could be their their character, their nature, and they might you know what I mean, they might not want to look outwards. But I think, oh yeah, sorry, no good, Oh not just gonna say. I think it's a lot safer to have that little white book, you know, that little white book that comes with all those or used
to come with the right away Smith decks. It's so much easier, right to just read a map than to go off in a new direction.
Safer. Yeah, I get that. I get that. I was like that in other ways with magic or you don't looking at myself. I actually regretted how much time I wasted before I started doing shadow work.
Which actually speaking the shadow work. One of the things when people start getting in the terror, most people feel free to say is you shouldn't read yourself.
Hmm, I wonder what you know? I I I think we should. I think we should do readings for ourselves. Absolutely. Is it always easy now, it's not always easy to read for someone else. And depending what you're looking for, are you looking for answers? Are you looking to explore? But I think people are missing out if they're not doing readings for themselves. What do you think Judus, I'm turning the tables.
I feel the same way too. It's just that you have to be in a mindset to accept what you see. If you're if you're not at that place where you you accept, or you're willing to make a change of something, it won't work. But to outright tell someone not to read themselves, I don't agree.
With Do people Are they actually saying that, like, don't read for yourself?
I think.
That's weird. But why say such a crazy thing?
I think that now is if you're reading for someone else, you see their truth, but not all the time. When you're reading for yourself, you're ready to see your own truth.
It's true, it's true. So that's why you keep going. You sit with it longer, you pull another card, You meditate on it, you go for a walk, you have lunch, you listen to to Nick and Judith on the radio, You give you kinds of things, and then you go back to your cards and you go hmm, and then you go, aha, Now I get it. Now, I see it's a process that you know. I think that's part of it. It's not insta right, instant knowledge, insta wisdom. It takes longer.
Yes, I was. I was a victim of that too at the beginning, so I could definitely say yes for me, you know what I'm saying. So yep, with other stuff obviously, you know plenty of things in life too. I like that. Thank you, Judia. Do you want to ask her anything else before we continue?
No, I have a question, but I'm waiting for till we hit the astrology part.
I'm excited.
What's the astrology?
Well, actually it's about a previous book you wrote, A sad little.
I did want to even have. Yeah, I didn't even want to talk on that too, So go for it.
On that book. Saturn. Now, when people deal with astrology, Saturn is one of the most feared well yes, most feared planet, and your book tries to clear up the misunderstanding of the planet Saturn. Can you expand on that how people misundertake this as a hardship, as a harsh.
But it is it actually is. It's no lie, it is It is hard. Saturn is hard, Saturn is difficult. I think maybe maybe that book did I maybe I made it sound did I make did I disnify Saturn? I don't know, because I hate Saturn. I mean I wrote it about Saturn. I have three planets in cancer, and Saturn is associated with Capricorn, which is my opposite sign on the wheel. I fucking hate Saturn. I don't like I don't want hardship. I don't want pain and
suffering ill, I don't want that shot. I don't like Saturn. But Saturn is also commitment. Saturn is time. Saturn is structure. Saturn is discipline. We need bones. Saturn rules the bones. If you didn't have bones, you'd be what you'd be on the ground. Yeah, bo, you know it's funny. That was how I met shout out to Teresa read. That was how I met Teresa when that when Yeah, when the Saturn book came out, I think she reached out
to me. I don't know. I don't think she does her podcast anymore, but she I was a guest on her show, and she wrote to me saying, I love Saturn. I hear you have a Saturn book. I'm thinking, Teresa, you can't love Saturn. I'm so happy you wrote me, But what is this? What is this craziness that you love Saturn so so she loves Saturn. I hate Saturn. Saturn is necessary now I'm wondering where if you know where your saturn is, Judith.
Actually I do not know.
Oh my god. We have to fix this. Can we rectify this problem right now?
I could even tell you you'd have a better chance by looking at my birth jod. I forgot where it was. I think my twelfth house.
You have to know. Oh yeah, I think that's right. I think it is in your twelve. You have to know when your saturn is because you have to know when your saturn is or was or good aspects, hard aspects.
I'm going to have to because I do have a birth dry.
Oh that's right. Teresa Reied. Did do we had saturn returns right or something like that?
Yeah? Her book is, Yeah, I think many astrological returns.
Oh yeah, that's right. She focused on that one. That's right. She focused on that one on the show, I think when she came on.
Yeah, and my book has a section on that too, has the three like, there's a saturn return when you're in your late twenties, and then there's one in your late fifties if you live long enough, and then if you live even longer than twenty eight years after that, I guess was up late eighties something like that.
I thought I went through mine just now ten years off.
Well, you could be having another Saturn transit which is stressing you because you know, sometimes you know, if you feel very blocked frustrated, it could be Saturn. Not one hundred percent for sure, but it could be.
Would you say Saturn? She says, you haven't learned your lesson less your lesson yet, sit here and learn your lesson before we move on.
That sounds like Saturn.
Yeah, much.
Saturn gives us all these responsibilities which we probably don't want, but we have to have. It's maturity, it matures us. My astrology used to say about transits, difficult transit, Are you gonna go kicking and screaming or right like? Or are you gonna I don't remember what he said after that, but some version of surrender or acceptance of these new responsibilities, at least in terms of Saturn, that makes sense. Aren't you glad you asked?
Yes?
I know. I think you talk about projection and uh. One of the most interesting ways to frame Tower or two is projection. Are we projecting onto the cards or do you think that cards pulling kind of projections out of us?
Hmmm, interesting.
Or could that even be like like almost a symbiotic relationship, you know, don't I.
Don't think it's either or I think I mean, honestly, I think there's so much that goes on when we read cards. It's all of it. Because you know, in this book I'm talking about one way to read the cards. There's so many ways to read them. And I think as we've been talking here, I might be saying, oh, try this way, not necessarily because it's better, but just it's different. But I think we're we can do it
all at once. Like we bring our entire selves to the deck, we bring our entire selves to the reading. So any any meaning you read in a book has that you liked, has probably stuck with you and then your own psychology. Any projections right, because I think what you mean is sort of this isn't what the car is really saying, is what I want it to say. I think that's what you mean by a projection there. I think it's all. I think it's all in the mix.
But you know what you know how you know whether your Tarrant readings are so to speak right or not is by doing prediction divination for other people for yourself with a short timeline, and then like if you have clients or friends, they'll come back to and they'll say, oh, you were right. So that's how you know whether you're projecting or fantasizing, or tuning into the stream of the unconscious or intuition, or you know, however you want to
phrase it. I think it's hard to parse ultimately where the lines are.
Which actually makes me as how do you avoid projecting to someone else's reading, because sometimes because I used to read back in the day, I don't read anymore. But usually if like say, you're trying to explain to someone of reading something, you're trying to portray a situation for them and it's unfamiliar to you. But then as you're reading, you'll see visually something that pertains to you and it makes it easier for you to explain it to them.
That's okay. I think that's fine if that it's bound to happen because how many how many experiences are unique, Like, of course you're going to relate it to your own life or it could happen.
But how do you avoid that experience being something that you need to answer for yourself instead of interpreting it for the reader.
If that makes sense, practice practice, Just keep reading for people. I think that's that might be the only answer. You just keep reading for other people and for yourself, and you get better and better and better, and then your stuff will move to the side. Yeah. I think I know what you're saying, Like your own stuff could start creeping into the reading, into a reading too much. So practice practice and getting feedback from your client or your friend,
whoever you're reading for. I mean, what you can't do is give up. You can't put the deck down. I mean, if it's something you want to do. But if you're like, oh, I'm so bad at this, I keep bringing all my shit into my friends reading, I suck. Like that's not going to help you. So you continue. Oh and you know what you also do? You buy even more decks so that you have many, many, many Tarot decks.
I could see that working, actually, especially if you're using a deck that was used on you once.
Freshing up your deck every once in a while.
You use a different deck. It might literally, I at least it sounds even in your brain, might just associate it differently because it's not the same image anymore. That's actually a really good idea.
And I tell people too, I'm going to teach them to read what their eyes closed, like, the imagery is the least of it. Like you look at that imagery for a second, just like a split second, and then look away. Don't don't be sitting there like, Okay, that's salamander. That's salamander. Is it means this? It means that.
I like that.
About that?
That's very Uh wasn't it the star Ruby you're supposed to do with your eyes closed and visualize the ritual?
Actually all of them you're supposed.
To at some point you suggested, No, I like that, that's a pretty good idea. What else was I? And it was something else? I wanted to ask, Huh, what do you think?
Uh?
What is lost when Taro is stripped of divination completely and turned into only therapy? Do you think do you think that anything happens with that?
What is lost? No? I think it's just a different like, it's just a different aim or different goal for that particular session. So so let's say let's say you're gonna let's say you want to do three different readings yourself in a day. Let's say you have a lot of Virgo in your chart and you're planning everything out. You could, uh, you could do Okay, now I'm doing my divination session and now I'm doing more Terror of the unconscious style, and now I'm going to do a mix. Yeah you can,
you can. You can do it all. You can have it all, even even in the same reading. You just have to play with it and see.
That is true.
Yeah, but yeah, it is. It is not a predictive style, that's true. But you know what, if information wants to come to you, it's going to come to you. You know what I'm saying. Like you might be sitting there thinking, I'm gonna go within, I'm gonna do self reflection, self analysis. I want to just discover a little more about a relationship today, Like I just I just want to understand
myself something like that. But that doesn't mean that you're not going to see your entire life unfolding before your eyes. See that's how it works. Actually, Like I didn't. I never intended to be a psychic astrologer or a psychic terror reader. It just happened because I did it all the time.
The way you laid it out, the different forms and I'm going to go back to your book, The Terror and the Conscious. When you start playing around like this, do you think it gives you a glimpse on how your unconscious mind organized? I mean, we know how our conscience.
Definitely, Yeah, it'll because you'll you'll see where you go, You'll see patterns if you're paying attention, especially if you if you do keep a journal, if you write stuff down. Yes, it's it's a lot like meditation in that way, you will get to see your mind.
Which would you say that helps sink your unconscious and your conscious mind together, like say, if you if you do do magic, if you do do spells, it'll help you unify better, to better function through those rituals. And uh, I don't want to say experiments, but methods of being more effective in yours for making.
You know it might that's an interesting question. I gotta think about that. I guess it depends. I'm thinking how much value someone would put on sinking those It is a really interesting question because I think of it in terms of the more what's happening behind the scenes is less behind the scenes and more clear to us. I think that's helpful for our lives overall. Seeing our patterns the way we get in our own way, So why wouldn't it be helpful for magic too? I can see that.
And also we never get to the bottom of it, you know, we never really know everything. A dream means we never fully know everything. A tarot reading means there's always mystery, you know, like we never it's never finished, so there's always mystery. Meaning I don't think anything is ruined, you know, like we never understand ourselves absolutely. Because I was just I was thinking, okay, would it be too
much truth for magic? Would magic doing our magic? Would it lose some of its luster if we saw too much or knew too much? But I don't think so, because we never know it all. I think it would the mystery and the magic of magic would still be preserved. I think.
So.
Long story short, yes, thank you for that.
It's a long, roundabout answer. I was my virgo moon mind was thinking it through to an absurd point. I think.
No, no, it wasn't an unserved point. It actually was. It's actually it clarified.
Oh good.
One thing I did want to ask about, like you know, your book, One thing I kind of noticed just from you know, looking at it and going on a few cards myself that I'm just you know, a fan of Like you even mentioned something about like in the dark, and I think like that was even like a you know, reading the cards in the dark, that might even be like he's like your high Priest's card. I think you might suggest that one of your cards. I think you even mentioned that in the book. So you take me
a while to get to what I'm getting at. But like, to me, I find your book interesting because it seems like with your cards, the way you do it well. First off, I do I do want to suggest to people that I could be wrong, but from looking at the way she does this book, I think if you go through it, you're actually going to have an experience kind.
Of hmmm, what kind of experience.
Yeah, something probably new, you know, they're just going to have an experience. To me, it looks like something that it would be almost like kind of like taking on a different practice and just seeing where it gets you or what you get out of it.
I think you're right. I like that. I think that's true.
And you know, just certain things I noticed how you would sometimes even like personally use like the cards like I think maybe you're just trying to help people get an idea like almost like you mentioned one. This one reminds me of the registrar that was funny at school. Oh yeah, So how like you're even attributing to it to like something like even in your own life. But then I even noticed some of them. You know, you have like a then you also have like suggested kind
of like I guess practices. How would you kind of like give an overall I guess idea of like with the cards, like what you were going through the book? Like what do you It's really hard for me to ask this question the way I'm thinking, Sorry, good time. How would you could you give the people maybe an idea of like the structure, like the different ways that you do go into the cards to try to, you know, show people how to look at it.
Well, I mean, you're right, I do. I do use stories from my own life to bring the cards.
What I think that's great.
I do use stories for my own left to bring the thank you to bring the cards down to earth. Even the major arcana that the major arcana, they're not always life changing crossroads, they're not always archetypes. In some systems they are sometimes the world card is because you're going to Walmart. It's not always a culmination with a capital C, right, Sometimes you're just running an errand the world card. But I do mean each all of the
majors has their own little chapter. I bring in stories from my life, whether as a tarot teacher a psychoanalysis student. I bring stories from Freud's life, from the history of psychoanalysis, from other psychoanalytic ideas which I applied to the tarot. So there are these short chapters and then I give meanings for upright, upright interpretations, reversed little key phrases, and then a tarot spread. So that's how most of the
card chapters are structured. So I do that with the majors and the miners, but then with the miners I actually group the aces and the court together to strip them down to their element, which is a little unusual. I'm not the only one who works that way, but it's more unusual. I think that's what you were asking, like, how is it structured card by card? So yeah, so people are going to read a little story which hopefully they like find it interesting, and then I think you're
right about it being an experience. You know, if people do actually read the book, they're gonna see, Oh, look at these keywords for her cards. They're more lyrical, or they're more strange, or they might notice that upright and reverse sometimes run together because meanings for cards exist on a continuum. That's another main point, Like there's the emperor, isn't or I'll use the empress example. She's not always
creativity in a reading. She's not always fertility. She's not always good, right Like if we see the Empress, we think, oh, this is a good woman. Not always depends on the context. That's where your intuition, you know, That's what's reading the cards, is your intuition and your ability to free associate. But I don't know if I answered the question. I think that is why you're asking, like how is it structured?
No, you did one thing I do want to add too, that I think is really cool about it. This is I don't know the way my brain works and how I kind of see it sort you know, sometimes you can get tarot books that are very much like almost structured, like a book on herbs or gems, and if you if you think about it, those books are almost very just. It's always written the same exact way, like you know what I'm saying that structures. I know exactly what you're saying,
and yours is not like that at all. I do see that there is some sort of structure in there, but it's not like copy paste the same way or you know what I'm saying, you go differently. Yeah, I like that. I thought that was Yeah, that's it.
I'm curious what how what what you found different? Because I did follow that same like, here's a description, but the description is a story. It's a narrative, not not an analysis of the imagery.
That's That's what I think. It was realizing the way how you That's why I thought it was really impressive how you incorporated like neither your life or like you're saying, like you know, you know, real situations that aren't I would even say that aren't fantastical or like even in the woo woo. It's like almost almost anybody, anybody who's you know, gone through life exactly could take this and somehow adapt it to something probably they've experienced. I think I think that's.
Okay because if it brings the cards down to earth, I think you said that really well, so I guess I'm wondering. So it makes it relatable, as the kids would say today, it makes the cards.
Is that?
Is that what you're getting at for sure?
Yeah? Yeah, I think so.
Yeah. I was again with the salamanders. I wasn't going to sit there and talk about the wands. I mean, I do bring up imagery some of the time, but it's it's more to make a point. It's not the salamander. I can't even remember what the salamander symbolizes. I'm sorry I don't recall, but you know what a fire. Yeah, those all the books with them, and there's there's nothing wrong with those books. This is just an alternate view, there's absolutely I mean, that's our history as Tarot lovers
are all those books. So I'm not I'm not anti any of it. I love Arthur Waite, I love I love the greats. I'm a I have, I have Tarot books, I read them. I'm a I'm a fan. I love Eden Gray, Rachel Pollock, Mary Kay Greer. I mean, these are legends in our in our lives.
Yeah, even yeah, I think you can always pull something positive out of all those people. Anyway, they're too attribute, you know, for sure?
Yeah, you mentioned a lot of beginners. Would you consider your book and more for the advanced terror reader.
I think it's for anyone. I think it's I think it's for anyone who's curious interested. I think any anyone who wants to pick up a deck and play with a deck, it's for them.
Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think that's kind of how I got out of it. I thought that. I just think that's cool, Like I really do feel like you'll actually have an experience. I like that. Yeah, well, that for me, that almost makes it magical in itself. You know, so.
Not every book you read on tart could get a guarantee and experience. That's plus.
I love it. That's you're giving me great promotion.
No, well, it's a very different book, so I do expect I do appreciate it. Yeah, it's not the same run of the mill terror book. Yeah, Judith, did you have anything else that you wanted to ask? No, not right now, would you want to? I did ask you before. You don't have to go too far into it, but I wanted to see if maybe you would mind talking about like maybe the Empress card and how you attributed that in your book and stuff or how you do it? Yeah, well, you.
Know, I was I was saying before. She's not she's not always, she's not necessarily the things that we're taught about her. But she might be all of those things in a in a particular reading, right, I mean, she might be fertility, she might be motherhood, she might be abundance, creativity like for me in a in a in an average reading, a garden variety reading. I like her. I
like when she shows up. Oh. I think I mentioned in the book that my my favorite, my personal Taroor reader reads her as self care, like she'll get whenever my reader gets the Empress for me reversed, like she knows there's something wrong, like I need more sleep, and that that is a more divinatory kind of kind of way to view it. But prosperity could come through with the Empress and Prince Empress that you need to go outside, be in nature.
Oh, I can see that.
Would you also consider her coming that you are a creator a new idea or a new epiphany?
Hmmm, that's interesting. Yeah, but you know the context is in charge. So am I reading for myself? Am I reading for someone else? What questions am I asking? Is it a one card. Maybe I'm not asking any question. What am I asking? How many cards are there? Am I doing a pre arranged spread? Am I making it up on the fly? What are the surrounding cards? That's also a key to the book is that's what the
Empress is about. Is the context is everything? I think, I say this somewhere like they're There are no like finite absolute meanings of the cards for all time. It's impossible. It's all variations on a theme, always, always, always, always, even though the books say she's this, she's that, but then we reverse her and she's all these other things. Yeah, it's trippy, right, there's no limit, there's it's infinite. The terror is actually an infinite system. It's not fixed.
I agree with that. Do you do you think being in Takobala or looking at him kabalistically helps you view it that way as well? Like I could see the polarity maybe, or the difference is how it may not always be aful No.
I cannot even speak to that. I wouldn't. I don't you know what. I don't work that much with the correspondences. I don't even like astrological correspondences for the cards, even though I know there's a long tradition of that. For me, it makes it muddy and it gets in my way. I don't want more lists, so I don't think of it cabalistically or astrologically, and I usually fight with astrological attributions.
Do you think that people who try to memorize this those attributes it causes them to falter in the reading?
Mmm? I think it might get them somewhere. They might, you know what it's it's gonna get them somewhere, just like you, whether it's kabalistic, astrological or or the time honored tarot meanings. It'll get you to a certain point. But if you're not willing to dive off the diving board into the deep end. But it's a choice, you know, not everyone needs to do that, like what I'm suggesting, Maybe not everybody should or they're not interesting in it.
But I don't think it's an empty experience. But there you reach, there's only so far you can go. I mean, how much farther would you have to go for your intuition to kick in or your free associations, Like maybe you know people that they just stop right they're like, Okay, I'm going to read my from my list of correspondences, and I'm going to read from this terror book. And that's as far as I'm going to go. Okay, that's as far as you want to go. Just don't do a reading for me with that.
I like that. It's very interesting. Yeah, I think psychologically there's just so much with terror in general too.
Yeah.
I don't know how to explain what I was just.
Going to say.
What would you like? This was probably the last question, unless you if you have anything, what's the one thing you hope people take from this book?
Hmm, that's a good question.
If there's multiple answers.
Yeah, Well, I hope they're I hope they're not afraid to play with the cards, that it's something fun, playful, something they can play with it. It doesn't have to be predicting the future. That it can be light and fun, even though, of course, I mean the book is serious. I talk about it it being serious fun. So to breathe some new life into their tarot practice wherever they are, and to give it a try. That's what I ask in the book. I say, just give it a try.
Try it this way. Put down all the books, put down all the meanings. Oh and for for folks to create their own tarot spreads, their own tarot spreads, their own keywords, write their own books. Let it be a create pursuit rather than a flat You know, this card means this. This card means that, let it all go.
I like that. I like both answers. Those are great. Oh, Judith, there's anything you wanted to say.
I just actually wanted to say that. You actually serve two purposes with this book, actually three. But first is you're welcoming any new people who are curious about terror reading basic readers, and these three are very difficult to put all into one book, so I have to say that's an accomplishment. The second is get off the paved road and play yourself, go into the woods and find your own way.
Yeah. I like that.
And the third one is working on the mental, the science of the mental, working through the cards.
Hmm, what do.
You mean You add the Freudian concepts in there? So you could use it as a beginner. You could use it to grow as a terror reader strictly, or you could use it to grow mentally and spiritually at the same time.
Yeah, okay, I see what you mean. I agree with you, and I love what you say about getting off the paved road. That's right. Even though this book has civilization in it, right, it has freud in it. It's definitely go to the go to the woods with your freud and your deck, get off the paved road. Yes, thank you, that's lovely. I think you're right. She synthesized it, she put it all together. She's the temperance card. That's what
the temper see this. See, this is the thing. If you're obsessed with tarrow like I am, and probably you know some people maybe you are this way. You think in Tarot, like there's always just like we think in the planets. We like, Oh, Judith is the temperance card. She's synthesizing.
I like that, think tar I've done that. Yeah, I've done that before. That's funny. I'm like watching it away and I'm trying to like put some Tarot structure. It's pretty funny. Thank you so much for coming on. This is really an amazing talk. I really had a great time.
Thank you too.
So this was just it was different than what I was used to recently.
Now, but you got to tell me how now.
Oh, only because like I said, a lot of them I didn't realize at first of just a lot of the Tower readers of people that I had on with books that were all.
Verio to young huh.
So at least I got like a.
He's only he's only in my book as Freud's ex friend, as a Frene me.
That's cool. Yeah, before we wrap it up, Judith, you want to let everybody know where they can find all your stuff, please?
Oh yes, and once again, thank you for having me, Alisa. This was a wonderful conversation. I have to say thank you, thank you and everyone else. You can find me on x spreaker and YouTube as the Loon.
All right, thank you so much for coming on. And Alisa, please let everybody know where they can find you again and anything you'd like to promote.
Okay, they can find you. Know what, I'm going to give a different Instagram because the one I gave you originally it doesn't grow at all. It's been at the same place forever. So they people can find me at Psychoanalysis bookshelf on Instagram. They can, and my website is actually there, it's in the bio, but they can find me at Alisa Einhorn dot com. And the book is Taro of the Conscious, which they can pre order from anywhere anywhere, you know where, you know where people order books.
Yes, awesome.
Make make my publisher happy.
That'll ry for sure. Thank you very much for coming on. I really thought that was an awesome chat. And again it's a it's a very interesting and different type of book, I think, so I was happy to be happy to have you on for the and Judith again, thank you for joining us. And that is the end of another Recult Rejects and until the next one, everybody be well later.