You see, something's going to happen.
What's going to happen? What a right? Welcome to the Occult Rejects.
Today's episode, we got a very special guest, somebody I was very excited to come on the show to talk about Taro.
You all know I love Taro.
But before we introduce Natasia Roland, let's introduce the other rejects on the show.
And first we got the loon, Judith. What is going on? Judith? How are you?
I am the loon?
You could catch me on the loan on YouTube and on as a loon on X and I do the weekly brunch and once a month to buddy check, and I try to focus on self in our self development.
Awesome, thank you so much. I reallyppreciate you making it today. And Jin the Ninja, what is going on?
Sir?
How will you? Well? Thank you?
What's up us? Mister ninety three. I'm really excited to be here. I'm not a tarot guy. Just let me say that everything I know is newer. Although I've been technically, I've been doing it since I was fourteen, Like I've had a toath deck for all that time. And you know I'm grown in age now so I should know something, but I don't really know anything.
But that's okay.
But if you're interested in following me, you can follow me right now at the show account at Threshold Saints both on ig and Twitter. Yes, my personal account is just temporarily we're saving a little hiatus, but you can also catch us on Threshold Saints at substack dot com as well as The True Gray Lodge, of which Matt mur is our webmaster and our YouTube coordinator of course, so are the True Gray Lodge with a v t r VE and you can look at all of our episodes with each other and that we do.
As a group.
And so we just did a great episode on the relatives of apocalypse, so indigenous ways of relating in an apocalyptic time, so kind of cool, kind of different for us, but I think it went well.
People said they loved it. So that was our latest episode and then I had next week.
I have Saschke, who is a physicist, a cabalist, a rock and roller. Well he says he's a rock star, so I'll go with that. But he's kind of like he's a magician for the New Aon so he is kind of wild and you hear us in conversation for like eight hours. I cut it up so it's different episodes, but I thought the first part of that will be coming up next week.
So thank you guys so much. Appreciate it.
Thank you very much, Jan and I wouldn't feel too bad. I probably have about four tower decks and I really don't know anything about it unless I attribute it to the coubalistictory of life, Like that's the only.
Way it says anything to me. So I get it. Uh, Brandon, magis in the media. What is going on? Sir?
Sup there? Everyone? Thank you for having me on again.
Nick has always loved coming on being one of the rejects of the old cult.
It's beautiful.
Nice I am Brandon, right, this is Magas in the media.
That's where everyone should go to.
This is actually the ocult rejects Magas and the media integrates with it. Please everyone, just go check out all the things that I've been doing. It's on YouTube that's the biggest channel. And then x is where I get to just kind of flippantly talk shit to all the non fensical people out there, as well as Instagram to drop all my shorts and reels and then TikTok.
It's a dying app, but we use it anyway, so.
We as in me breaks down media of all kinds, film, anime, literature, comic books, through the esoteric, mythological everything that comes.
Out of my brain. And I love everyone on here.
I'm so excited to talk to Natashia, Natsia, Natasia Roland. It's going to be a great day. Tarot is amazing, so of course let's see.
Let's do it all right, Thank you very much so I appreciate it.
And last but not least, my man Matt Moore, what is going on?
So sub how's it going?
So very glad to be here.
Shame you can't join the last two episodes, but always nice to hear them as well, the super nice here hearing them.
I'm Metmaura.
You can always find me as at Metmoora nineteen on all socials. That's going to be Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, which maybe some Instagram, in some other place like Telegram or whatever. You can always find me there. I do enjoy terrat very much. I had the seventy two weeks experiment that I posted on x. It's also my website, which is Kabala dot com k A A B A L A h dot com.
So that's what I like to do.
I like to use kabala, not the Jewish one, not a harmedic one, not against any of those, but just people get that on fields out the time. But I like to connect that with tark, with astrology, with neurology, with other sciences, and it's just so cool. So it's awesome to be here talking about it with someone who just released pax or it's going to release a Tara deck.
In the future, so that's going to.
Thank you very much, so I appreciate you making it.
And finally, Natasia Rowland, thank you very much for making it on And yes she has. She's the founder of Urania Press. She's an which is an ESO terror publishing studio where poetry, myth and divination come together. Natasia is a writer and independent researcher with a background in book arts and design, and she's been a.
Tower reader for decades.
Today we'll be talking about her Emblemata Tarot deck, and we'll also touch on a little bit and promote a little bit about her Taro Chaimera. That Wiser was so nice enough to send me a free copy of even though we weren't talking about that today. So, uh, Natasia, anything that I left out that you would like to promote or plug, please let everybody know where they can find you when you're amazing tarot decks and anything else you'd like to show people.
Thank you. It's great to be here and good to know you all. Let's see. So, yes, I started did Urania Press in twenty twenty, right during the pandemic, and since then, I guess it's been what five going on
six years. I've created nine decks, So some of them are you know, like just stayed indie decks with Urania Press that I had funded through Kickstarter campaigns and got to have you know, like followers that way, and so that decks were being promoted, and then you know, like each new campaign that I did, I had you know, people from before, and so it kind of rolled. And yeah, now I've got nine decks out there, and three of them have been taken on by the publishers Wiser as
you mentioned. The first one they put out was my Tarot Emblematic, which I my indie deck was called Chromata, which was a colorized version of the Claude Paradin devices and emblems, and then after that, actually no, I'm sorry.
They did star Loar ar Kana first, which is an antique deck of constellations, and then they did the emblemata and now February second they're releasing Taro Kaimera, which was my first indie deck that I published with Urania Press, and that's the noir art of the symbolist artist Odolon Raida. And you can find me at Uraniapress dot com. I'm on Instagram, Natasia Underscore Roland or Uranya Underscore Press. And then I also have a blog, but I don't get
up to date, so sorry about that. But there's some bits and pieces on there, and that's that's a square space synthemata ensembola.
Well make sure if you want after the show, I can send you all those links and I'll make sure they're in the show.
Yeah, that would be great. Up with the notes in.
Uh, thank you very much again for coming on. Like I ask, I guess every guest that comes on for the Occult, which is pretty much all of them, what was it?
I guess? So when was it?
Like?
When did you know like this is what I was going to get into? You know, how did you end up getting yourself into this, I guess life.
Yeah. I think it's kind of an interesting trajectory of experience really, because I was sort of what I consider heavily steeped in my early twenties and then my thirties and forties, I got into motherhood and more sort of arts and crafts and kind of like let a lot of my earlier interests and obsessions lay low and can't really explain why, except for I really did enjoy being
and I have two daughters. So but yeah, So in my early twenties, I find that Odelan Raydon, actually that artist inspires me so much because his work that I saw when I was in art school in the nineties made such an impression on me because it had a dark flavor and because it was so spirited and it seemed like it was full of the numinous experience, you know. And so I found that I was really drawn as far as esotericism goes, like the flavors of it came
out through my interest in art. So like dark art, you know, and symbolist artwork in particular, and like the even sort of the pre Raphaelites to some extent, just because they were hearkening back to you know, myths and archaic times and classical times, and so really like what embodies to esoteric for me in a lot of ways
has to do with myth and archetypes and imagery. And then obviously, you know, like when you look at say symbolist or even pre Raphaelite artwork, there's a sense of the magic in that, right, and so it's like, you know,
the combined of imagery. And then like a lot of symbolist artists were also writers, and they were pretty decadent, and so I got into that sort of era, the symbolest era with art, which I could just you know, like even when I studied them a little bit by reading some of the books, you know, because I worked at the library and art school, like I could tell that they were, you know, they weren't like out and out saying, they were like, you know, into the esoteric,
but they were obviously inspired by it. You know. So magic and mysticism has always been a part of my life. I've always been drawn to it. But as I said, so, like in my early twenties, I lived in Ireland for three years and I spent a lot of time reading tarot and just you know, keeping journals of all my taro journeys and spreads. And then I felt the need and desire to get into like a master's program to
express myself a bit more. And I was really into book arts and poetry and wanted to combine my interests in art and writing. So I moved back to the States and did a interdisciplinary kind of degree, and in that I was able to combine, yeah, like art and poetry. So I did a printmaking studio and then made artist books with poetry, and I would say a lot of
that work had like a mystical flavor. So long story short, I feel like I've always been sort of a mystic person and into the metaphysical, and a lot of it came from poetry and art for me. And then I kind of shied away from like some of the real you could say, like fan or trends of you know, like witchcraft and things like that. But when the whole time I was in Ireland, I was doing like hedge witch stuff and you know, like little spells and things.
But I didn't really get.
Sort of steeped in magic per se until my late forties. And so, like I said, in between twenties and late forties, I had children, so that took up a lot of my life, just kind of making their lives enchanted. And I did some craft businesses just kind of make some money. And how Taro came about as far as publishing goes, was when COVID struck my full time job. I was let go, like a lot of people were laid off, and I was able to get unemployment, so I was
supported and I was at home. And I've told this story before if anyone's heard any of my interviews. But I was looking through an old book where I had xerox to a bunch of artwork from my early twenties, like when I was working in the library at art school, and like just kind of scamping, not all kinds of imagery, probably even some stolen books, I don't know, but anyway, I had like cut and pasted all kinds of great
stuff into this journal. And I saw this Odelon Raidon image that just made me think, Wow, that would make the like a perfect tower card. And then funny enough, a friend of mine had sent me a template for a tarot for creating a tarot deck, and I was thinking I didn't even know you could just do this just you know, like wing it and make your own deck. And so, because I don't really love to draw or paint myself, I've always been obsessed with like curating images,
and a lot of my decks are about that. So they're like finding obscure imagery out there in the public domain and sometimes even antique decks. And because I have like a experience in photoshop where I co taught with some masters, Photoshop is something I love to work in and I love to kind of like what they call
paint with light and so light and shadow. And so anyway, I was thinking, well, I'm just going to like take odelan radon artwork, and little by little I saw that they were really corresponding with what would be considered the
traditional Rider Waight Smith style, you know. And so I created that deck and found out about Kickstarter being like the I don't know, the industry standard for getting you know, like a funding for something like a deck, and a lot of people mostly just buy their decks through Kickstarter nowadays and their indie decks. So that's what I did, and I put that one out and that was the beginning of it all.
That's awesome nice, but yeah.
I mean, I know your question was about like esotericism and magic and all of that, so like I would say that, you know, it's always been embedded in my spirit, but I didn't get heavily steeped into ritualizing it and practicing until my late forties. And that was because I had a sort of you could say, like I met some influences that made it all make sense for me for seeing that it was authentic and just like a fad.
Did you want to assoult to Jim, Yeah, I'm just going to say that I identify with the curation of images rather than particularly being an art producer on your own, I'm also like that.
So I understand.
I wanted to ask you about Urania Press and why Urania because we, as we've often discussed on the show and my shows and all of the shows that we do, very broadly is we've called, well at least I call it an of the daughter. So I know Urania as a daughter, So I just wanted to know if that, like, who is that for you?
And why did you decide to name your press that?
Yeah, so, Urania as the amuse when I was looking into her because I had notions that I wanted to do something with astrology. But I'm not a professional astrologer. I'm an enthusiast and I just kind of studied on my own, and I look at my chart and I just deep die. But when I was looking at the muses, Urania was not only the mus of astronomy, but she's also like a muse of poetry. I mean, there are others of poetry, but she also that was also listed
for Urania. And because I'm an Aquarius and I'm you know, also like Capricorn rising, I have Saturn obviously very heavy in my chart, and Saturn is she's the daughter's so she's the daughter of Zeus, right, and then of course the great uh the granddaughter of Saturn and the great granddaughter of Uranus, and Uranus is my ruling planet. So Urania made sense for me, even though I'm not like
a professional astrologer. But I knew that I would be bringing some decks out of obscurity, like the Starlar Arkana deck came out, and also I did Astronomia, which was another deck that had to do with like planets and asteroids, and so yeah, I knew I would be publishing some work in that vein, but not all the work. It doesn't have to really pigeonhole me.
Just a quick follow up. That was great. I agree with all of that. I think it's in a quote unquote aquarium age, so very fitting.
But I also.
I wonder if the symbologists, like from an art history perspective, yes, of course it's not necessarily what you would call metaphysics per se, but I would I would posit that all the work of a symbologist is basically kabbala, and many
people on this panel would probably agree with me. And so looking at Odeon's work, I just I think that you're right in seeing that there are correspondences to the writer Weight deck, because, as Nick said, like for someone like me who's not a Tarot reader, the deck only makes sense in relationship to the Kobala stick tree because all the cards are supposed to represent paths or pathworkings or suffer atic concepts. So that's where really the images arise.
So I also saw it right away just in pre pre recording, because his deck is heavily laid with what I would call kabalistic themes. Now I'm not expecting you to call it that, But if you want to like address that in any way, i'd appreciate it.
No, I have not actually looked at that. I haven't. I mean, if anything, it would just be a kind of synchronous because it all ties in mystically. But I haven't spent any time with that concept. So sorry about that, But i'd love I mean, if you want to, like, you know, elucidate some more on it, you you know, feel free.
Well, even his concept of the severed head is actually a symbol of in like that. I'm a Tibetan Buddhist, so I generally use tontric astrology or pyonic stories to sort of relate metaphysical concepts, but I'm very comfortable using elec tradtional Jewish cabala as well. But one of the ideas of like the Aquarium age and tntra is the severed head. So there's even a goddess called Chinnamastica. She's she with the severed head. She severs her own head in fact, but she's kind of the bearer of the
Aquarian or the Uranian age. So his work obviously deals with this figure, the severed head image. And we obviously looked at the magician card pre recording, and there is the skull so very Saturnian, the ruler of bones, the you know, the last density before we lose form. And then there was also a head I believe in the basket. So it's like both his ego, his physical body and then what is looking at it. Why I would argue that it's his spiritual self.
Yeah, I love that. I mean it makes me think of that whole idea of like the disembodied head you know for sure is more about for me like non materialism and yeah, like that the ability to kind of like take yourself away from the ego and the body in that regard and do you you know, dive deeper into dreams and the surreal and you know, the imagination. But yeah, I know that's definitely a theme that you see often with his work.
Yeah.
Nice.
I also want to add or like kind of bring out the idea of the sumvered head in we've maybe heard it from the same thing as like John the Baptist, right, the Gnostics or the Templars were said to have had the head of John the Baptist, which would mumble out glossialalia to you and if you had the right level of initiation, you would be able to hear the words which may stem from and be the similar thing to the Lost Keys of Freemasonry.
Interesting enough.
Yeah, and then of course there's the head of Orpheus, you know, the muse exactly. It's all tied in. I mean, it's certainly archetypal, and the symbolism is definitely broad and it's great to hear of that Eastern tradition too.
With that, do you do you subscribe to like putting the two on the tree of life, because that's something you look at.
Well, you know, it's funny because I think I spread myself all over the place, and so I've been actually careful not to go towards Kabbala and I know and the reason why is because it would just take me into a deep dive that I have not wanted to do. It's just like I am, I don't know, Like I there's only so much that I can take on for myself. That is, like you know, Hellenistic household worship, and you know, the myths and mysticisms of you know, like Western esoteric magic.
And I know that the Kabbala is huge, but I have just not I have and felt drawn to it because it's going to be too much of a deep dive for me that I just haven't. Yeah, it just hasn't drawn me. I know that that's probably crazy to all of you, because I know that I've listened to some of your podcasts and you definitely go there, but I, yeah, I haven't, And I think it's just because it's too much for me to take on.
I just want to add a little thing is where it doesn't Actually, I think you would agree that when you tap in, because you're not a dabbler, right, You didn't do these things to dabble. You were tapping into
an artistic current. And that artistic current then means that you are becoming your own magician when you tap into those things, thus pulling, as Carl Jungs would say, these metaphors, myths and symbols from the unconscious realms, and so you didn't need to actually study it per se, but through your ritual of artistry, you were tapping into a similar current as then what you're talking about with Odlan, right.
Yeah, And I know like you can take the taro and just do any of that with it, you know, like Damien Iggles has done it. With the angels, you know, and you can just take taro and you can apply any science and any mysticism to it. So that's just one that I haven't done because, as I said, it's just more of like I realized that it would be too much of a deep dive for me. That hasn't
felt aligned. But I mean, I'm sure, like you know, you're saying it is aligned, but I haven't felt that it's needed for me.
Yeah.
Yeah, And only that is aligned in that you're doing what great shaman's magicians mystics have done throughout all of history instead of having you know, because we live in a strange time where now we have the ability to look up all the different significances and attributes and see how they align from what the Golden Dawn did with
hermetic kabbala and adding it all together. But for a long time, everyone was so scattered and across the globe, so you didn't actually have the ability to maybe read from all the great libraries as we do today.
So it's kind of you're taking on that current without you know.
Yeah, And I mean in my early twenties, that was the thing, like I saw the Tree of Life and I wanted to dabble in it, and then I realized, like, no, I don't want to just.
Yeah exactly that.
Yeah, starting I'm curious not to say it.
Since you like the Greek mythology and tarrot, have you ever used or encountered the mystic from I have seen.
It online and actually, yeah, that's one that I have on my list, but I haven't you know, I don't own it.
You you should take a look at It's very nice.
I think that's that deck particularly, I have heard people say is just like their kind of standard deck. So yeah, some people yeah.
For reading that the one I used the most because it's just so easy, especially on the West, since people know the Greek stories amidst explained stuff through the just like the imagery and themology, and it's nice. They all connected one and all the minor arkin are also from myths, so like the cup are from Aeros and Psyche, the swords is from Orestes or wherever I was a live English the ones are from Jason, and the pentacles are from Midas. No meat us from the father of eCos
for us they right now. But anyways, so there's always like the myth through the ace.
To the ten, and then all the are connected in this one.
So did you say Jason as in the Argonaut?
Yes?
Oh yeah, okay, that sounds great.
I love that thanks to riff Off.
Matt's point is is that, yeah, the mythological narrative Nantasia is is one layer of that of one layer of kabala. Like him just even telling you the story, he's drawing you through a kabalistic narrative, like he's drawing you through the tree. And then so for me, who is is driven by myth? But I would say more an experiential cabalist.
For me, it's colors and words. So I relate to perhaps like you, to words as magic words as both a container of a narrative or can contain a narrative maybe as well as inherently magical in and of themselves.
So that's really alcabla is.
It's just a series of like ways that we understand the correspondences.
Usually with words.
So a poet is very well positioned to also be a to create magic. Now, whether that person believes themselves a magician or not. Obviously every great magician, they say, or all the ones I most of the ones that I've ever met, or the ones that from history, like Austin Osman Spare is like obviously the perennial example because he was a poet, an artist, and a magician at the same time.
An ultimate weirdo, an ultimate weirdo, an ultimate outside outside exactly.
So we so there's a joke that we talk about on our group show is that every magician is an in fact a word style, which is a very twitter online kind of word. But it makes perfect sense because the ways you tell stories is very magical, like how you you know, like what symbols you use to relay
specific conceptual ideas that's going to give people. Maybe they won't believe it then the wholesale sort of like components of it, but even if they take one element and then they say, oh, I'm going to utilize this for magic, like they do with HP Lovecraft very often.
I'm curious also to understand how do you approach the tarot readings as then there are a lot of people, for example, who would get a reading done and then assume that's like a sentence that's like, Okay, that's the story that I'm telling you, and that's the sentence for how it's going to play out. And some are.
People like how I prefer to do this, for example, is show them like, hey, this is where your head is at at the moment, and if you want to, okay, live that story, good for you.
Go live it.
If you want to change this story a little bit, you can go this way deck way, And it's more like as a map they can navigate instead of again a sentence or I don't know, maybe other creative ways of the fixed stories.
Sometimes they give you fixed stories. I think that's what you're kind of saying.
Yeah, I like the idea of the map. I think of it as like for me, like developing a mythos, a personal mythos, And so I love to use a bunch of different decks. So like I only pretty much clarify my questions or my spreads with my decks, just because I like to use others decks and not just be all about me and my things that I've created. But I do really resonate with a few of my decks very strongly, and I think they are potent in talismanic,
so I definitely use them. And so how I work is I don't tend to do like any traditional spreads like the Celtic Cross or anything like that, although obviously I learned it originally in my early twenties, but just what I do now, it's more effective for me to just kind of like end up with a table full of cards that are all over the place, and I usually what I do is I start with like a past present in future writer away smith kind of pull, and then I start asking more questions and developing what
I call like clarifiers with other decks, my decks and things. And so I feel like it's a deep dive in a lot of ways because and I also get my pendulum out sometimes and ask yes or no questions and things like that, because my pendulum is just like freaking unbelievable.
So it's just aligned with me. It's got that what they call like the ingez spirit you know in it, so it's it's alive, and it helps me a lot with like that yes or no. But you can't do yes or no with like taro, so you've got to really develop a storyline to follow, you know, like those branches will go from there, they'll go down or they'll go up. And so I decide, you know, it's pretty awesome.
I would like to ask then I think it's kind of a good bass question is then what does the taro mean to you? And how do you see it play out in your world as well as the world at large.
It's just another tool or device for me because actually even before Tarot, like when I was, you know, say sixteen seventeen, I was writing poetry. I was no sorry, I was writing lyrics because I wanted to be in a band and then I got in a little like garage band playing through role in synthesizer. And yeah, so I was writing lyrics early on, and then heavily got into poetry, like heavily like discovered like but are not through Percy Shelley the Romance. So I was really into the romantics.
Nice I still still am.
And then I got into like the Decaden writers of the simplest era and anyway, so Taro for me is
just another devnation oracular tool. And so how I feel about it now that I've you know, like I'm in my fifties, right, so I'm like really thinking about all of these paths that I've gone down through my life and different avenues I've taken, Like even like the mothering thing that I talked about earlier, you know, and how I kind of slipped away from you know, like magic and esoteric things then and that was in a lot of ways, that was for me to realize certain things
about myself and my path. And so Taro and the a regular tradition for me goes back to like Apollo and the muses and the soul's ability to connect with the diamon and to divine what you know, like what is important in their lives and what can enrich their lives and how they can become more embodied and more sovereign. So the Taro great tradition out of you know, the Renaissance. But for me it's also just like just a tool,
so I can use other tools too. And I used to do the eaching quite a bit, but I won't go into it right now, but I did do that for years as well. Nice and I mean, obviously I love to like read different books from you know, like who have you know written about Taro and you know,
like Yodowski and Rachel Pollock. And yeah, there are definitely explorations that can take people in different directions with the Taro itself, but really it's just a building block slash tool for self discovery, and you know, like you could
call it, like you know, fortune telling. I don't really like to all at that, because you know, you could get a reading from it, which could be pretty inspirational, but then something could turn on a dime, definitely, and so you could just obsessively go back and do more terroostpreads, you know, but at some point a person needs to And that's what happened with me, is that I read for three straight years in Ireland and then I just stopped for years because I just got like inundated with
it and I just didn't want to. It didn't have any meaning until it came back to me in my late forties and then the spirit of the decks really began to like show up. And not to say that they weren't there in my early twenties when I was in Ireland, because I'm sure they were, just so I didn't connect. I didn't know it, you know, Whereas now I work with gods. I know the presences of gods, and like when I meditate, I know when entities are speaking and when it's just my head or my psyche.
Yeah, oh yeah, that's a great distinction.
I think that a lot of dabblers in the occult and magic tend to forget is that there's these realms of the personal conscious where it's like, what is it, What is the difference between the phantasmagoria and just pure your personal imagination?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and that phantasmagoria is pretty amazing as well, and you can you can construct that creatively something to suit your life as well.
You know, yeah, definitely, that's definitely the flucks. Oh no, sorry to oh no, you go ahead. I was just saying that that is the phantasmic oria. I call it the flux.
Every magician has their own vocabulary, right, like their own way of speaking of it.
Cloquially, I call it the flux.
So it's like what we draw from that is in that, and then what we can make of it. Obviously, every artist and magician both is always, always, always wants to make something of it. So that's a big part of it. But I wanted to actually one comment and one sort
of follow up part. It's interesting that you bring up the Jodoroski book because when Nick had Cherry Para on who did the Left Hand Path Tarot book, she cited that book as one of her two inspirations, and I also find that book very like I find his work like incredibly inspiring. And I talked and we discuss how it like connects to his cinema work as well as his like comic book work with Mobius, and it's all kind of Taro and Kabbala and magic, like it's all
metamagical together. So that's really interesting. But then you have one of your decks that you mentioned with Sublime Thresholds. So my show is called Threshold Saints, so I just obviously that's going to catch my attention. So Sublime Thresholds, I wanted to ask about the name and if you wanted to go into that deck a little bit.
Yeah, absolutely. So back really quickly about Yodorowski. One of the things that I loved about his vision was that Tara was a sacred temple. And I think a lot of people, you know, like maybe you know in the early days of you know, working with Tara, might not necessarily see it as that or like a way, you know, like a journey in a way and like a hero's journey kind of thing. And that's definitely something that I see. Tara's just kind of finish off that inspiration of Tara.
But okay, so for sublime thresholds that came about because let's see, so in twenty seventeen to twenty nineteen, I did a master's degree in creative writing and I had to put together a thesis. And I've always, like I mentioned, have been into the decadent and writers and symbolists, and so I felt like what I loved about art the most was its enchanted quality that made me feel a
sense of the sublime. And so I decided that the sublime was still around because a lot of like someone even wrote, I forget the name of the person that the sublime was, the sublime was dead, and I'm thinking, fuck no, And in fact, humans will be dead when the sublime becomes dead.
Oh sure.
And so anyway, for me, these sort of heightened experiences in either writing poetry or art or everything. You know, it's kind of like the arrows principle arrows E ro os, and so I wanted to explore and for that degree it had to do with literary things. So it was
the endurance of the sublime in literary horror. And then this whole movement called the eco sublime, and so that's what I wrote my thesis on and that sat around for a few years afterwards, obviously, and then when I was thinking about a new project to do with Urania Press to publish, I was thinking how cool it would be to there's just so much beautiful artwork out there in the public domain, and a lot of it could easily correspond with tarot archetypes and like the hero's journey,
and so I wanted to portray art that I felt like took you up to that threshold. And obviously, like the Wander amongst the Fog of Casper David Friedrich is like one of the most famous imagery of like, you know, the man standing on the cliff with the rolling you know, fog and clouds overlooking that. Like that's so like either two or three of Wand's you know, So, I mean sublime imagery corresponds pretty easily with the tarot tech in that journey. So that's when I just decided to put
that together. And I ended up, you know, staying up till like three in the morning, like just doing super deep dives looking at over like four thousand images in the public domain, and even though some of them are quite familiar images, I put them in because I felt that they worked. But so I wasn't just grabbing whatever. I mean, I was really like just I spent so much time curating those, like I said, over four thousand images just to get the ones that I felt were right.
And that of course is art work. That's you know, like either Gothic symbolist or Baroque.
And Natasha, maybe we should define symbolists just for people who don't have an art history background, because I'm just thinking to myself, like, what if people don't actually know what that word means.
Not that I mean I know what that word means. I mean, of course you do, but.
Just in case, just because I feel like it's a lesser known movement.
Yeah, So the symbolists of pretty much like the late
eighteen hundreds they call it, like the Findesi Ekla. They were mostly English, they's some German and French, and they were French, and their art recalled back to like classical times and myth and they loved you know, like Arthur Otherian myths and stories, and they definitely were against rationalism and realism, and so of course they also loved the Romantics and so they just they kind of harkened back to the magic and mystical really in art, that's my
quick definition of it. They also, I think spent a lot of times in dream and and you know, working through their imagination, fantasy and the phantasma oracle. Yeah.
One thing I did want to ask was a couple of things I wanted. One thing I wanted to mention that I noticed from you using I guess the e ching terror and a pendulum see rather than big into divination. Is that something you found yourself, I guess kind of beg into when you get into this stuff.
Oh yeah, I mean I think I think I mentioned about Apollo and being the god of the oracular that there's a sense for me of if I was to say, like what archetype my spirit or my person here on earth now is connected to, it would be like the seer prophetesque oracle.
And that sounds.
Kind of, you know, presumptuous, So I'm sorry if it comes off that way. But I mean, if we all had to sit down and say this is my archetype, you know what I'm saying, Like, that's who I would say.
I was like, I'm connected to this inner exploration of how to direct your life and the symbols and the things that can come down into your life to guide you that way, and they will come from the gods, and they like I am writing a book called some Femota and Simbola, and so I feel like they definitely are you know, like manifestations that come into your life from the gods, and so that devination is just a
way to express it. And I could easily go online and just you know, do terror readings for people, but I am more interested in art and writing, so creative writing, and so I like to express my interests that way. But yeah, I feel like I could, you know, like I do readings for people, and I have gone to shows and things, but I primarily it's just from you know, helping friends or helping myself to just guide my way. It's you know, my place in the world and how
I fit in and all. So like, yeah, why am I here?
Re enjoy I'm sorry, And.
I was gonna say, what can I offer?
You know, Yeah, I re enjoy your way of seeing this and spending my Coba Master explains as if like reality is a series of frames like in a video, and then each frame you could see as like a tarot card. So like each I think now I'm this card, and then now I'm using this one and so on, so like you keep changing them. So when you are giving when you make a reading, like when you take them out, it's basically seeing what it's inside of you,
but in a like a table or whatever. That then you can rearrange and then and then rewrite maybe or or try to understand, like you're saying, like who am I what is this archetype that keeps coming in? I did an experiment like I mentioned, I did seventy two weeks reading, like.
Making a reading per week.
I would take three card arts, and then after a couple of weeks I started doing one per day as well. So in total it was like hundreds of cards. And I saw the statistics at the end, and it was very funny that the top four cards had to do with my astrology signs, like when you make responses. So then to me there was again a sign where okay, I'm usually tapping into those archetypes. That makes sense, like that again that they're talking about each other like astrology
and the terrorit and swan. So then if I know that, then I know what are my strengths, my weaknesses, my shark Cummings, I'll be best at and so on. So it's very pretty nice that way have seen it, like we're talking about.
Yeah, that's beautiful. I like that connection.
Another thing I wanted to ask I was just I'm assuming I could be wrong. I just know from my experience even with I guess Tarot too. Again, I really never had much of a clue, but just other stuff that I practiced.
The way you looked at it at the.
Beginning and the way you look at it now, is it can kind of different? Have you kind of gone through Yeah?
Yeah, yeah, what were you going to say?
Is it possible, like I know, I might be putting it on the spot, might be always even explained, but is there is there a way maybe you can even give examples, like how like I guess maybe your relationship with the cards have changed over time?
Yeah, Well, like as I mentioned, I see the spirit that's behind it, so like I wouldn't I guess I call it like the spirit that presides over the deck. But I feel like i'm, you know, kind of like when I'm sitting down, I'm not alone, and that these things are living beings, these cards are living beings, and or even like, like I said, if I had my pendulum, not that I do a ton of work on my bench.
I'm not just sitting here every day like holding my pendulum, but like there are important times in my life, you know, with certain questions and needs. But yeah, I think before obviously when I was in my early days, uh with Taro, I it's certainly enrich my life, but I didn't feel it was. It was more like an an addition to, you know, my world, but like it wasn't my world.
And so whenever I sit down with like Taro, this is like my story coming out, my mythos as mentioned, and so it's almost like these beings are you know, whether they are like the diamond or like angelic intelligences or whatever they are, you know they are They're they're pushing that that story through the cards for me, and it's up to me and my intellect to like connect in with it and see the signs and symbols and understand it and like interpret it. And so I didn't
have that sense in my early days reading Tara. It's more just like you know, getting the booklet out and you know, learning about it. But I think I did spend some time like sort of a young approach. Back then, I had a book that guided me that way. So I think that's why the hero's journey has always been kind of, you know, like the Joseph Campbell like kind of obsession that some people got into. I did fall
into that in my early twenties. So yeah, I think now there's just way more of a sense of these are intelligences trying to communicate with me. How can I interpret them, bring them through that liminal threshold.
It's beautiful, one of the beautiful. I'm one of those Joseph Campbell fanatics, and it's in the beginning of A Hero with a Thousand Faces, he says, the unconscious mind.
Is like a Laddin's cave. It's got all.
These beautiful things and jewels and everything nice and pretty. But then when you get deep dart into it, they call it the genobide. There are many then, both dark and scary and things that are going to up a.
Lot of the shadow aspects of self.
And what's so beautiful about the way you've kind of talked about the taro is even when you start bringing it into the ideas of intelligences and archangels and these different things which are just names depending upon what culture your nervous system is in.
The beautiful thing.
About it is that the taro is a living intelligence, and the more your nervous system and your brain and your body mind sysogy interact with it, the more you then can tap into the beautiful, right, the good and
these platonic forms that are then being expressed. And these forms have this agragoric style nature that then when you, through your nervous system are playing with them or doing a reading, the more you've had the ability to touch and feel and be sensuous and have that orphic eros coming through them and you it's almost like you're becoming a swords master, right. The swords are now the cards and they're not separate from you, but they are integrated there.
They are part of the hand, and so it's.
Yeah, and I mean you could even say like a Nuwan's master and a chalice master, you know, rail master and like, uh, you know, the pinnacles can have you know that symbolism as well. Yeah, but yeah, no, that's really amazing. I definitely created the Odelrado deck Taro Kaimera as a shadow work. I guess you could say deck just because of the fact that they're all noirs. I felt like that was sensible and sense it made sense to make that a deck to do deep dives with
less subconscious and follow through that way. And I think the images touch you that way anyway. They're also kind of uncanny and funny and like they're just they're sublime in their own right. But yeah, that that sense that he must have had of connected to spirit is so clear with that those images. I keep wanting to say cards but obvious artwork.
Yeah, yeah, that are his art is fantastic and I like how you express them through the cards, So I like to see it. And when we talk about these things, it's like how many different angles and like models are we viewing reality through. But the major arcana are almost just and even your then minor kona. They're just structures of existence, and each structure has a certain form which
then follows function, you know. And so it's like once you get his nervous system and the way he perceives things, and then it's really it's such a fascinating thing to see then how you've constructed the major arcana from because it's like the major arcona is set, you know, what
I mean. It's like you have everything from the full to the aon and you're then trying to build this beautiful thing off of it, like you already have this idea da set and then how do we pull out through his work and you put it into that ark.
It's a beautiful deck.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I feel like sometimes I think to myself, like, gosh, I wish there was more, like there must be more than just you know, like the twenty two, because it feels like you could easily like sit down and figure out more.
Yeah.
R Connor that you could come up with.
You know, it's true.
But then we get into the problem of the post modern chaos magicians. And then that problem is all of a sudden, you get too erratic and you don't have any set structure, and then all of a sudden you're just fucking.
All over the place.
Now now, now, now that is completely unfair. That feels like fighting words episode.
So that is not true.
I'm a cast as you know, if you pass to the to the tree, and that is why there are twenty two major arcons.
I want to say that that's true.
Chaos wrap on the show.
Just for the record, No, it's true.
And I have my own inner chaos magician obviously through my hellenization of all the different things I do. So you're right, and I need I need individuals like yourself, Jin, to help pull me back.
So thank It feels nicely Saturnian to have those that structure.
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't, and that's my mercurialness nature.
I can't help it.
I want to in hot I want to put it all together into this neat little package through all a crazy chaos.
That's a really good A really good chaos magician actually likes to work within boundaries because it provides a useful framework for which to draw forth from the flux into something material. It's a true pathworking. It's like a true if you're willing into pathworking chaos magics for you, it's just that you have to take it with the limitations at it, you know, has that's all.
No, it's beautiful. Yeah, you're so elegantly.
I always state these things, Jin, and I appreciate you there, thank you.
Yeah.
I used to integrate like chas magic into my virtual work, but it was never like purely that It's hard to explain, like like sigils and certain things like maybe I would use do chaos magic with like you'll use that sigil and charge it, but it's because I'm using that for a ritual I'm going to do a few days later.
That was never like the type explain.
I mean, I don't like to call my magic chaos magic per se, but it must obviously be because I I take in what makes sense to me and what works for me. And if it's from all different you know, any different traditions, that's awesome. And like I was saying, I haven't really gone down the deep dive of kabbala, and but I yeah, like I find that I don't want to limit myself so but but I I seek that wisdom from within. It's something that comes from within.
It's not like, oh, that looks cool. I want to, you know, explore that that's something maybe I did do in my early days, but not later now I'm you know, it's it's what I call like my synchronistic path. It's what comes to me that is symbolic and synchronous synchronicities. I can see things that start shaping up and they're
presenting themselves to me. Like when I discovered that a couple of years ago, I discovered that Apollo and Athena have been in my life since I was a teen, like an early teen, or maybe even like a little kid. But I didn't know that all through my twenties, thirties, and forties, no joke. But when I now look at all these things throughout my life that have happened to me, and I can tie it all to either Apollo or Athena.
And it's very interesting because I never said, oh, I want to, you know, be a devotional devotee of like Apollo or Athena, but that they have been like speaking to me all through these years in signs and symbols, and it just took a while.
Before Dawn taught me yes.
And you know, it was just like I think it was because I started like magical thinking became who I am. I think I've always had like magical thinking, but I embodied it so much more in my late forties when I could kind of like step back from mothering basically, you know, get back into you know, all the sort of things that make me who I am and not just like always pleasing my little ones and making their
lives enchanting, you know. And so yeah, it was like very important to discover that there were particular gods on my side that I didn't even know were there, and now I'm certain they've been there. You know.
Well, there's something interesting actually when I talked to you about what you just said in reference to Kabbalah, is that, well, first fall your past age of forty, so you across the you know, the threshold you could say, into the ascetic consciousness that of Jupiter. Jupiter is also a co ruler of Uranus. You said you're an Aquarius. Well, the spirit of Aquarius is driven by the idea of justice, so that's also.
Very asthetic in a way.
So there's a direct one to one kind of correspondence in the higher event obviously occurs on that pillar, and that can be related to Neptune, but it can also or Hope mob but it can it can also be related Togetherra, which has a Mars which has a very strong relationship with Jupiter or Hesse. So it's kind of like the it's that priestly knowledge, that kind of thing
that you're talking about self referential. You're like, your internal flame is kind of what guides you your arrow with an a so that that kind of does actually directly correlate. And then there's an idea that the coming age will be a solar one or will have a solar lunar synthetic element, so like Apollo and an Athena.
A son and a daughter. So that's kind of interesting.
I think just from a you know, just like a speculative like gnostic perspective, and I think you're you're right. I think I think that's what it is about, is drawing from things that are meaningful, that makes sense to you, and that are practical that work. It's not just we're not replicating Golden Down, you know, ritual texts wholesale. You're looking at them in like terms of the whole landscape. So yeah, I think that if you want to call yourself a chaot, I think that's cool.
But you know that's just me.
Yeah, yeah, I guess it's almost like it's hard not to be categorized in that chaos magic realm, especially since there are very few people who have been initiated through structural systems like the Golden Dawn, you know what I mean, And so we're all kind of just uh an amalgamorum of these teachings that have come down through time and then trying to put them through our own nervous systems to understand our body mind.
Yeah, and I think a lot of what I'm trying to say too, is like who I have become and who I am is a lot of it's from DNA memory, is what I call it, like cellular memory, And so it's like what I must have and could have easily been, because I'm absolutely, you know, for me, certain that I've had past lives, and so I spend a lot of time thinking about and connecting in with past lives and the traditions that I may have followed then and the
initiations I may have had then. And for instance, you know, like I have a desire to move to Italy but maybe potentially France to study taro more deeply from the early decks that were created in the Renaissance and really Renaissance and latent evil. And so I because I have direct correlations to certain like families from Italy and certain Tarot traditions, you know, not like Tero traditions, but Taro, like the Tarocchi, and like the creators and the families
that were making those. And I've had a lot of bizarre synchronicities come into my life about all of that, and so I just know that there's the stuff that touches my life. There's no sis that touches my life from past life experiences. And I used to be really I felt funny talking about it with people, like constantly talking about past lives, until I discovered that the Greeks that was you know, they had that word for it too, and.
Met psychosis or transmigration.
Yeah, exactly, with metam psychosis like they were, you know, it was completely normal and not abnormal to understand you're like and if particularly like you were saying orphic initiat, which I'm certain that I had some experience of that in a past life and probably was involved in some of the mysteries, and so that nosis comes through, and you know, like I am a woman, so I suppose there's more of a sense of like that intuitive side.
So it's like all of the magic that may seem like chaos, magic that comes into my life can also not just be from things that I discovered in my teens and twenties and thirties, forties, fifties, you know, but like brought through from many generations, in many lives and many weird experiences and things where I've had extreme trauma.
In fact, I've talked about this on other podcasts, but I think that my road towards motherhood in this life was to blanket some of the traumas of past lives and to kind of keep that bay my magic, and once my kids were old enough, I was allowed to let it through. I was allowed to sort of step away and like let that like deep magic come out and not be so afraid of it because of you know, experiences and past lives. Worse probably for me it was strangled and drowned rather than burnt.
But yet.
Those experiences I think are in our you know, bones and our like DNA history and like cellular stuff.
So yeah, nice, Uh, Judith, is this something you wanted to ask you?
I did have a question because of your approach towards the way you developed these cards.
I'm unfamiliar with it, and I could.
See the artistry work within the cards, but you also added literature. So I was wondering to help those who are new to your approach in this your dex. Do you how can I say, connect like a specific work of art, like a specific poem to each card, to help like someone who gets your card connect with the vibe and the the emotion and the feeling you're trying to invoke with it.
Yeah, so that was kind of why I got into creating tarot, because I've always loved poetry and I've always loved art, and I've always wondered how to combine the two. So I did book arts for a little while, but it never really it just didn't sustain me and I it just wasn't like I didn't want to keep just creating like standalone art books or whatever. So but yeah,
so I wanted to do more writing. That's when I went back to school for creative writing, and I wanted to then express the two together somehow, And Taro made sense because you know, you've got the interpretations alongside the card itself. And so I wanted mine to be definitely like poetic inspired. So whenever I write, it is a bit of like what someone might say channeling, and you know, I will I will do it from like the hero's journey kind of perspective. It's mythic, it's poetic and it's
magical minded, you know. And I don't have a specific you know, like poem, but I have put poems together with Tara, like my Sublime Threshold steck for each interpretation does have a poem from some other famous you know, like writer. But yeah, does that answer your question or was there more you wanted me to explain?
Actually it did because because I was trying to understand since you don't use the kabala and a it's not the ruined system and you say you don't necessarily follow astrology too much. I was trying to put that together and see how to move forward when it comes to using your deck.
Oh yeah, yeah, well, I mean all the all the decks I've created all have guide books that are extended, so not just the little white book that goes in the deck, but like creative interpretations that I've written that go with them, and that usually for my indie decks, there are separate books that I've published, and with the wiser decks, they have them right in there with the like a box set.
Yep, that's all was the one they sent me, very nice, cythe I wanted to ask you, what's what is different about emblem emblemata?
Sorry is how do you say that one again?
Emblemata?
Yeah? Okay, it was right.
What's like what's different about that deck, like the reason Like normally when I ask people who write a book, like what will you bring to the public that's different than everybody else you wrote on this topic?
So you know what I'm saying, I kind of like the same thing with your taro.
Yeah, for sure. I mean I think for me, they well first and foremost when I had seen a lot of the emblemsloading around, like when I would go to Pinterest and just on the internet, and I'd always been
drawn to them because they have that like iconic. They're black and white, they're iconic, and they are archaic, which has always interested me because there's a sense of the mystical and the metaphysical behind them and obviously archetypal and symbolic, but it's for what I love about them is they are from the Renaissance, and there's a sense of Renaissance wisdom there, so there's like it's like they are microcosms of something bigger and they're emblematic, you know, and they
are they represent different things for the culture at the time, and they were for people who were both literate and illiterate, because people who could read could read them, mom, but people who couldn't really could look at the symbols and they could kind of guess and figure.
It out, you know.
But yeah, I think that with Renaissance wisdom, there's a sense of no separation of you know, like spirituality and philosophy and science and theology. It was all kind of like together as one. At least that's how I interpret it, and so early science obviously, but you know, so things like astronomy and like music and you know, painting and
everything was kind of like combined into a philosophy. And so that's what I love about these emblems, and they're also they tre they're transcendent for me because you know, you can you can decode them of their clues, but I think that they speak for themselves just by looking at them, and they can be contemporary even though they're ancient. So uh yeah, I think that's what makes some special.
They were created in fifteen fifty one. If you need to know the name of the these particular, the person who curated these, it's Claude Paradine and his book device is aerow Week And there were many emblematic books of the time, and I think there's something like six thousand, So yeah, it was pretty big back then, and they
I think have transcendent appeal. They people do like to you know, Like obviously when I saw these images, when I started looking at the whole book and seeing all these emblems, it was obvious that there were so many that related to the taro and the traditional sort of rightaway smith or even some of them might say, you know, like so there's like the key, the cross key that made sense for the heerophont, you know, there was a line with a sword that was obviously like perfect for
the string card. But more than obvious was there was so many that that typical right away smith like arm holding a sword, or a wand or a chalice, or even a pentacle coming out of a cloud that is the ace of swords, wands, pentacles, and cups. You know.
So it just it made sense to bring these and kind of revivify them and bring them out into the world in a unique and different way and have them be attached to not only their mottos that are on the cards, but also write interpretations of them based on their like the inscriptio and the subscriptio of the what was called the pictora the emblem. And yeah, I think they're pretty magical.
Is it all right?
Unfortunately, because they did send me your other deck, was it all right? Maybe I showed some of the images of the Tarot camera just sure, yeah, because I think some of this stuff is amazing. We have the full card and the Magician car and the Horrofin.
So I like changes m one thing I did want to ask you.
I guess since I'm looking at it now, it reminded me what was it that made you want to add those extra cards?
Because there were so many great images and I didn't want to stop, and also because me, yeah, because I'm not much. I guess I'm getting a little more into it now. But I haven't always been really like big on Oracle decks. But it was fun to I think i'd gotten like the Pig in Other Worlds years ago, and I was like, they had that extra card and at the end, and I was like, oh, I'll do one. And so I did that one, the visionary one that you just showed as like a Irania Press last card
for my indie deck. It actually has information on it written on it for you know, like you're on your press. But anyway, so yeah, I just like want to keep doing more, but also it's fun to have a few oracle cards in there and they make statements on their own.
This is pretty cool.
In fact, I could have done an entire oracle deck for more of Raydon's work, but someone has already done that.
Always give people that idea what it looks like.
In Yeah, it's got such like a haunting, beautiful aesthetic to it that is like with the light in the dark, it's got such like a phenomenological experience of how it makes you feel.
Not that I know the way I explained it probably like I wasn't knocking it, but I think yesterday when I mentioned that we're going to where we're going to go live, which is no big deal, I was promoting the show already and I said, he know, this art is pretty sick. I said, it reminded me of that book if people remember more scary stories to tell in the dark scary that show was always creepy to me, and I was like, Yo, this art is sick.
Yeah, because it's the sublime and the surreal extend outside of our normal rational mind state. And so it's like when the shadows start to creep with the lights, you see all kinds of different ghosts like apparatuses, you know.
Yeah, Like on the back of the this deck from Wiser, I give a quote from right down which was like that his imagery places quote the logic of the visible at the service of the invisible, and that I think is a really good one for his work, because the invisible, the noetic, the phenomenal, you know, it comes out in that work. It's clear to me then he was connected to.
Spirits, oh for sure. Yeah, yeah, because it veers.
What's interesting is how the aesthetic can still be sublime and beautiful and veer towards the grotesque. And I think a lot of people forget how the grotesque is something that is kind of mind bending and also interacts with your gut when you have certain experiences, and it's most of those experiences that are most paradigmatic or paradigm shifting for our consciousness.
Yeah, and I think that the chimera and the hybrid creature I think is important as a symbolic image to not forget because we have, you know, with too much New Age stuff, just go too much into the light, you know, and we've got to continue to be haunted by weird and uncanny, ununcanny you.
Know, Yeah, that's great.
It helps us to think deeper about ourselves and relation to others, you know, and relationship spirit.
Yeah, and totally understand the monster aspect of the human consciousness of person, of our personhood. It's it's it's fat, it's like we Yeah, exam, I completely agree on how the New Age thing wants to be like love and light and it's all angels and what it's like. Actually, most of our mind is always taken up with the haunting and the emotional.
Yeah, and I mean it pisses me off in a lot of ways, that whole kind of angels as you know, something derogatory because angels originally even were like considered so frightening and so scary, you know, like and they were depicted as wheels with hundreds of eyes and you know, it's just bizarre. So yeah, I mean, the angelic everything to me when it comes to all of this work, and also just my spiritual path is about entity, deity, spirit,
diamond and that connection and that guidance. So whether it be angel or whatever.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Yeah, people forget kind of exactly what you just said is people forget that if you were to witness a god's true form or an angel's true form, it would destroy you.
Yeah, and I mean that, you know, Gustav Moreau painting of Zeus with is it Somale, you know, like she just like disintegrated because he had to show her his true form because she was tricked by Harah. But yeah, so that's an amazing painting and a great story. But yeah, I think that I think that we could probably yeah,
never truly see them. But that's why we have symbols and all of this art, you know, And that's what really pisses me off about, like the Reformation and all of that was you know, iconoclasm and like you know, smashing the icons and everything, because to me, it's what art is all about, is you know, we're as human beings, you know, we were I think taught by the angels this stuff, you know, and I think it's important, even if it's a fallen thing, it's a really creative and good thing.
Yeah. Nice leads back into like what we were talking about for about Scarlet imprint and what Peter Greve was trying to get at with is Lucifer Praxis is so good, which is a brilliant Yeah, they're brilliant. And it's the idea of like the magic and the mysticism was taught to us by those fallen angels and how that has moved through it And if you are a magician or a mystic or somebody you know, we are the rebels exploring the unconscious realms of not only the world, but
the world that is the fantasmical. We like going outside into the dark with little flashlights and look, and the flashlight is what creates then kind of like images that you're putting into that deck.
Yeah, that's why I'm really into Prometheus because of the idea of like, you know, like in ways like what the angels did, he fell, you know what I mean and brought the lights you know.
Oh yeah, I love for me this too.
And I just want to challenge Brandon and say that you're not you're you're you're not against the you're pro ARCon If you are not a little.
Bit of chaos, No, for sure.
So you have to That's why we have to have those like uh, you know, wild and weird syncretic elements to sort of like you know, rock and roll. We don't want to keep the heavens the same we want to like bring the light down here.
Yeah, said no, I completely agree, and I'm definitely pro ARCon.
It's such a fascinating world.
What's happened in the taking of the gnostic or understandings of even what an ARCon is and how we like epitomize it up and then we want to always destroy them.
But I actually said it really nicely.
I think it was in your guys' conversation with him and Jamie Paul Lamb and talking about how these arcons are actually gatekeepers or guardians of certain levels of consciousness as we reach paradigmatic movements in our own like ascent towards the stars.
That's an interesting Hellenic way that I strongly disagree, And I told that I disagree with that. That's not that's not a tontric way. That's not a good way to describe it, right, of course, you know, it's it's one way. It's an interesting way that I've heard people from that system describe it. And you know, I'm more about like, I think the arcons are sort of our fears and projections, our klipas, our aggregations. I think that's what more it's about.
So I think if we want to behead them. I think that that's totally okay.
Yeah, I think that's important as well, which is why the rebel nature kind of comes out and probably why we agree on such so much is that they're important to stand. It's like, what are we but representations of exactly the fears that we project outward?
You know?
Yeah, it's beautiful.
Yeah, I would like to. I've been putting on the back burner a book that would explore further about my conceptions of arkans, which so I'm not going to get into that right now because that's like for the back burner, but for kind of like me trying to understand why the world is so fucked up and why there's so
much evil and how like. So this research would include everything and anything to do with fallen angels, arcons, Sophia, wisdom, primordial man, and then how you know, like like before the flood, and to understand if there was a golden age, how that golden age could come back into play, and what we could do now to kind of like take steps towards it.
Long you know, they your.
Own mind number and that's the number, and that's we're in a silver age. Natassia that's how I've positive day.
So we're in a silver age, So this is a time to cultivate your own mind, cultivate your psychic powers, if you want to call it that. Yeah, that's how you move the age forward. The age moves forward whether we know it or not, whether we're reception or not, the AONs continue the wheel moves, so we have to be in perception of it and then also enact those things that are aonic, those things that those archetypal things that will help us move through.
That's kind of a neo gnostic way to think of it.
Yeah, I love that. I love that.
That's the self mythologizing understand how embodiment and practice and interact in the world. It's not so much going out in the world and trying to do things, but it's like sitting down with your own reflections and contemplations and at the same time try to like like harmonize with the inner like king, queen, lover, warrior, magician, poet, type of personas that are continually interacting through the cards themselves, it seems like.
But also like you know, that's why I'm writing that book on synthemonton Symbola, because I feel like we are not alone. We have the gods trying to tell us this stuff day and night, and they maybe even like you could say, angelic intelligences in the diamond day and night, every day of the week, every hour, you know, and they're just there and ancestors and we're not alone and
trying to figure out this stuff. And so yeah, you need quietude, you need self reflection in order to hear what they're trying to say and interpret it or you know, if not hear it. Because I'm a Claire audience. That's the only Claire Well. I mean, I think I'm quite intuitive, but I'm definitely Claire audience. So I actually do when I sit and meditate, have voices come through, but not very often. But when they do, it's like, oh my god.
You know, sometimes there's one that literally screams like it's like this thunderous voice, and that might, you know, suddenly make me sound kind of crazy, but no, it's nothing like that for crazy.
Totally safe.
This is a safe space.
Definitely. You guys are the others finding the others. So yeah, I think that we're not alone in trying to figure out all this stuff, and so there you know, there are ways to interpret it through just connection to spirit.
What's fascinating is I was just thinking about it because right now, I'm an anime nerd. I don't know if you know that, but I'm an anime nerd, and I there's an anime out there called JJK, and there's these cursed spirits in JJK. But what some of the and it made me think of it because of what Jin said is that we're trying to cultivate our own internal
power to be able to move through the world. That kind of thing, and those some of those images that you've put into that last tarot deck we were looking at to actually look like something like they call shikagami, and it's some of those characters have the ability to take in these like cursed spirits that have a negative connotation but use them for positive light air like positivity in battle. And so in a lot of anime, it's
like you're always battling the evil doers. But if you take that and you like like personalize that, it's like, how can I use these cursed spirits right? And I don't want to like interact and like make it seem like I'm talking about like the gatia or something like that.
I was just going to say, it sounds me memoric, but with the binding, you know, the demon and the only.
Reason I wasn't wanting to link it to that was just because it's got such awful connotations at times in different things.
But that's exactly what it is.
You're binding these spirits, and certain families and lineages have the ability to use these cursed techniques to be able to bind them and then use them at their will. And then interesting enough, if they're destroyed in battle, they're actually like completely destroyed in that.
But it's uh, it's an.
Interesting how to you is like modern myths, like I would call a lot of these like things that are coming out in the anime world, comic book world and those different things for positive reinforcement of understanding your interfeers,
you know. And I think what's cool about the decks that you're producing is that then you are able to put them illustrating something that most people will never see, like you know, like the rodin work and these different things, and now they are out in the social cultural area where you can just buy them and then play with them and then have a conversation with them.
Yeah, I love that this ended up being a mass market deck just because you know, it's it's wonderful to like, because I loved it as a more indie esoteric feel when I created it. But to think that they wanted to put that out there mass market was exceptionally cool because they're dark and I love dark stuff. You know, it's uh, it's gonna be it's dark but in lightning at the same time it let's that like that change, you know, that's that's a little chink that lights. Let's
the light in you know. That's what these images are for me. Yeah, in a lot of ways.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Uh, Gin or Matt, did you guys have any else that you wanted to ask to talk about? All Right, we're almost at an hour and a half. I think maybe we could wrap it up here. Is there anything Antashia that you wanted to add or say before you know about your deck or anything before Let's see.
Well, right now, the Sublime Thresholds Tarot is just in its second printing and so that's still like available as a late pledge on Kickstarter or for Etsy pre order, But otherwise I think we've kind of gone into like what I've put out there a few of them anyway, and I would love it if people wanted to check me out on Instagram and see more of what I do. I will put that in the show notes, right And I think all of you it's been really fun exploration and it's great to see you. And yeah, I hope
we can go further down the road sometime. I'm going to be putting that some Fematon sim Bola book out at some point, so yeah, maybe we can get together again.
Oh no, definitely, I would like to definitely have another conversation with you in the future, even I mean, I know we kind of talked about it a little bit now, but even in the future, if you wanted to come back for the deck that they did some me, we could go a little bit more into that actually, so that's always a possibility. But yeah, sure, definitely, will definitely keep in touch. Thank you very much for coming on. That really was an awesome chat. I really had a
lot of fun. It was very interesting. Again, I'm not too much into taro, so it was nice like hearing your take on it and stuff.
Appreciate it so much.
Yes, And before we wrap it up, I guess we'll have everybody real quick. Just plug this stuff again. Judith, if you're there, would you like to plug your show.
I'm sorry about that.
Patasha, it was very nice meeting you and hearing your perspective on the Taro. It was very enlightening for me. You could catch me on the Loon on YouTube and on x as the Loon. Thank you very much again for having me.
Of course it is no thank you for coming on and we got Gin the Ninja Friday. Gin.
Thank you so much. Boss. Well, I'll just say thank you so much. To Talkia.
It was awesome, was I You know, it's cool to because even though I said I wasn't into taro and I'm not really, it does. Actually it's good for me to hear people like you who aren't so fixed to the traditional systems, is what I also think what Nick was saying, So they can actually you can think expansively about it and you can be like, yeah, okay, maybe I'm not that great at it, maybe I don't know that much about it, but there's nothing wrong with playing
with the dak. There is nothing wrong with seeing how the archetypes fit or what you sort of attribute to the traditional depictions.
So yeah, I think that's super important. Thank you.
No, so that definitely that definitely shook me up. So thank you so much, appreciate that. And then of course.
I what do I do?
Okay, So I have Threshold Saints. You can check that out Spotify and Apple. Two episodes with Satschke, who is he developed a quantum crystal computer based on nineties technology, so it's very exciting, uh time. And he's a cabalist and a musician and artist and a true anime nerd. And we talked about everything from like guns to gunplot to everything. So basically you can check those out. That'll be dropping next week and then we'll have a we'll
probably have a grey Lodge again. We just had one, but we'll probably have one this coming Friday as well. Even if it's just me or just me and Matt or just me and Joshua or whomever, it'll be cool. And so thank you, Thank you guys. And I always appreciate doing these roundtables. I think it's really fun and expansive.
Yeah, definitely definitely had a good time. And Matt, real quick, I know you got a bounce. I just realized that now because it's perfect time up.
Yes, so Natasia, very nice to meet you, very nice to hear from your perspectives and as always I love talking about carrot, so it was really fun. And yeah, you can always find me as at Medmore nineteen on all socials. That's going to be x, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Telegram, which maybe some other place. There's also my website that's going to be Cabala dot com k A A B A L A h dot com. You can find out what I do, their services, apps, anything else. Also, you
can just chat with me through the website. Now there's a little pop up thing. It reaches my DM so I can answer pretty quickly actually, so anythink just let me know through there or through the other websites.
Thank you very much, Matt.
I always appreciate you jumping on the show and let's been not at least Brandon, please let everyone know what's up.
Thank you, Nick, thank you for always having me on. Nick, I truly appreciate it. To this place is amazing, a round table of like minds and also minds that are different, which is then how you actually can move the needle a little bit in this strange world. And Tashia it was amazing to meet you. Yeah, I'm your work and putting these things out here. I think it's a net positive for the community as well as the world.
So much appreciated. Thanks Brandon.
Yeah, of course it's fantastic and good luck continuing that and everyone out there. When you listen to this, make sure you after this, after looking through all the beautiful things that Nick has produced in Occult Rejects, make sure to head on over to magas in the media where we break down all of the things that need to be broken down in such a beautiful way of the so tek mythological and philosophical.
I've got all the stuff, So go.
To your tiktoks and your ex's and your eg or ig or Instagram's or whatever it is, and we're trying to do the thing. Thank you so much for this beautiful moment.
Of course, thank you, man. I gotta I gotta definitely leave you for the last guy. Now, well, that was amazing.
Thank you.
You promoted my stuff more than I do. Thanks Natasha, Thank you so much for coming on again. Like I really had a good time. It was awesome talk and I really hopefully we.
Have more in the future.
And uh, I guess that is the end of another recall reject and until the next one, everybody be well later, thank you.