You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
What?
Welcome back to the occult rejects. Today we're stepping into one of the most famous, misunderstood and mysterious streams of Western ceremonial magic, the world.
Of Solomonic pentacles.
When people hear the name Solomon, they usually think of the biblical king, the wise ruler, the builder of the temple, the judge between two mothers, the monarch associated with wealth, divine favor, and supernatural command. But in the occult imagination, Solomon becomes something else as well. He becomes the magician king, the one who knows the names, the seals, the angels, the demons, the plan monetary powers, the sacred geometry, and
the divine words by which invisible forces are ordered. Whether we are reading the old grimoires as history, mythology, theology, magical technology, or living spiritual practice, the solemon occurred sits at the crossroads of all of it, and at the center of that tradition are the pentacles, sacred diagrams, planetary talismans, symbols of divine authority, protection, attraction, healing, command, wisdom, and spiritual alignment. These are not just occult symbols in the
shallow modern sense. They are layered machines of meaning. They combine Hebrew, divine names, angelic names, biblical verses, planetary forces, geometric structure, timing, prayer, consecration, and intention. They are part scripture, part sigil, part temple, part twol our guest. Today, Emery's Abner has taken on the difficult task of bringing these pentacles out of the dusty margins of Grimore Studies into
a modern, living conversation. His book, Solomonic Pentacles Wisdom of Magic for the Modern Age does not simply treat the pentacles as a museum pieces or spooky diagrams from an old magical manuscript. It asks what they are, how they function, why they matter, and how a modern practitioner can build a real relationship with them without stripping away their depth, their sacredness, or their historical roots. What makes Emories especially interesting is that he is not approaching this only as
a writer. He comes to this as someone who has spent his life chasing the divine through history, theology, music and art. He has a background as an educator. He works through the world of sound and sacred practice, and he seems deeply concerned with making complex magical ideas understandable without making them shallow. That matters because solomonic magic can become intimidating very quickly. The names, the alphabets, the seals, the prayers, the planetary logic, the ritual instructions, all of
it can feel like a locked door. Emory's work gives people away to approach the door with respect, intelligence.
And practice.
Today, we're going to talk about the Key of Solomon, the Pentacles, planetary magic, psalms pathworking, talismanic construction, ethics, experimentation, and what it means to practice an old magical system in a modern world. We'll also get into Emory's own path, how music, teaching, theology, and the occult came together in his life, and why the Pentacles became important enough for him to write an entire book around them. But before we introduce the rest of the panel, I would also
like to remind everybody about the website. If you're into reading, we have tons of information by multiple contributors, and we got t shirts up on the site if you're interested. Fun fact, the art is all based on the eyeball. Now let me introduce the rest of the panel and the guests.
What is going on? Judith? How are you let everybody know where they can find you? Please?
I am fine, Thank you for having me. It's wonderful. I look forward to this discussion with Emory's and you can find me at YouTube x and on speaker as the Loom.
Yes, thank you very much for joining me. I'm very excited. And gin my man, what is going on in j how way?
What's up, Cardinal? I'm really glad to be here. Obviously, people who've listened to us on the show, especially like Nick and I speak about are retired magical practices, will say they know that I fancied myself at one time from about sixteen to maybe like twenty five twenty six. I won't even use magic numbers, but I was. I'm very familiar with the pentacles of Solomon and just the greater and Lesser keys. It was a spiritual technology that
I availed myself of many times. I have timed myself doing the orations and the Samic recitations, so I know, I can, you know, very autistically, so I can get it down to like a science specific like a yes, you know, in one night if I needed to do it in one night. I could easily, well not easily, but I could get it done. And so so I'm really excited for this topic. Obviously it's close to my heart.
I'm obviously retired from that, but I still think it's a very viable, useful and important technique and technology for people who are just not just beginner magic, but just it's a really good it's a whole hermeneutic in and of itself, the seals. So I think it's a great way to learn correspondences, planetary intelligences, the Kabbala obviously because they are Kabala in many ways, they are kind of like the Kabala as a tree, even individually, and we'll
probably get into that. But so anyways, that being said, thank you so much for having me. You can check me out on Threshold Saints. I just dropped an episode with my co host Solar Exile and Paul Frederick from the Demonosofti podcast. It's a part two. We're talking about Zoastrianism and kind of the Black Flame cultivation. I have an episode coming out today with Herbie and the Kirk Cast, which is like a very cool zoomer. They're too cooler
than me. A show, and they talk about like Asian anime culture, like Hong Kong cinema and martial arts, a little bit of Taoist cultivation and how that sort of obviously because it was on my show, it ties into metamagic, so how we can use those sort of like the gifts and the aesthetics of Asian cinema to sort of
be mimetic magicians on the internet. And yeah, and so you can always check out The Gray Lodge, of course on our YouTube channel YouTube dot com, slash at the True tr Ve Gray Lodge dot com, or you can check out Threshold Saints at Threshold Saints at substock dot com, which is my main landing page, but of course also Spotify and Apple. So thank you guys so much appreciate it. And of course Judith always happy to see a fellow Matian. Uh and yeah, I'm really excited, Thank.
You, thank you for making it in I knew I knew this would be something like close to your heart and you'd be interested in so I'm very glad.
You can make it.
And Emeryes please sir let everybody know what's up with you. Anything you would like to promote and stuff that I'm like have left out.
Yeah, thanks for the introduction, and it's cool to be here with you all. My I think the only thing I want to mention is that I've also got an Etsy storer called the Acoustic Alchemists, And on the Acoustic Alchemist, I make a whole bunch of altar plates for different occasions, a lot of them utilizing Salamonic principles, and and the pinnacles themselves. I make pinnacles as well, including you know, in in my book, I've got a couple of pinnacles that I think that the Hebrew on them, or the
sometimes the Malechem on them was like not right. And so I've got a couple of corrected pentacles as well. And then I'll let you know that coming down the pipe. We've got two books that are on the way. One is we just finished the last editing process, so it's in like layout. This is the a book for using the seventy two angels of the Shamha Maparash and the seventy two demons of the Goisha as spiritual pairs and
using them as teams instead of an opposition. And there's a quite an extensive primer to Kabbala in that, so I'm really excited for that one to come out. And then I'm also working with a couple of other authors to do a kind of a magical psalter where we go through all one hundred and fifty psalms and we kind of talk about each psalm from our particular perspective and then write a spell or ritual to go along with that psalm. And so it'll be me tackling the
ceremonial perspective. We have a a Hudoo practitioner and an ozark Roots practitioner, So I think there's it's going to be cool. There's gon be some diverse perspectives. You know, we're looking at the same palm and we don't we don't always agree, but we're like learning from each other, and so I think, you.
Know, I think that is great.
I love that idea too. Sorry, Nick, you just want to say like that, I always have had like obviously I'm very into cabal nick nossises, but I'm very into kabala I emories, and so for me, I always have had color angelic ritual associations with each psalm, and I'm very as I said, I'm a little autistic about it. So I very tend to be fixed in those ideas.
But I think this is like really brilliant, and I'm glad that somebody is like tackling something like that because I think some the recitation of psalms is like also a perfect kabalistic hermeneutic. It's the way to learn. You can learn all of Kabala through the psalms. So I'm I think it's way under utilized. I think people have no idea what is like sitting in there, you know, grandparents' bedroom in terms of a spell or magical technology. So I'm really excited to get that.
Yeah, me too, it's going to be it's gonna be a thick boy too. I think, gosh, the manuscript right now is like sixteen pages. It's crazy.
You know.
One thing I did actually want to mention before we go any further. I'm going to ask about you first before we get into the book, but I did want to mention, like your book like this is a this is a fucking book, like it's it's it's this isn't like one of those small ones you might like pick up in this store, like this is a I was impressed when I got this book.
I'll be honest, I was impressed.
So you're getting your money's worth in paper, believe me. But before we get into the book, I do want to ask, like, what was it that got you into this? And like when was it that You're like, this isn't just a I don't know, this is this is going to be your life.
You know what I'm saying. When did that happen? How did that happen?
Well, so, yeah, those things kind of happened separately. You know, I've always kind of been interested in in the occult as. You know, a lot of people here are you know, kind of lifers in that way. But I grew up Catholic and I, you know, kind of stuck with that path for a long time. I ended up kind of breaking with that after I had an experience where I was, you know, I was living on a monastery for a while and just couldn't it wasn't it wasn't my bag.
Plus I met a girl, so that was kind of the end of that and we've been and we've been married for seventeen years. So it worked out good. But then, you know, when I decided to kind of make it, uh my focus and my calling was really really during COVID, because before COVID, I had I had a nonprofit called Discover Music and we went around to mostly middle schools, some high schools and we would teach kids how to do songwriting as a way to kind of manage their
emotional selves. And it was a cool program. We you know, we had. We had a good run about ten years and then just trying to trying to navigate teaching through COVID was too difficult and funding got all lacky and uh, and so it ended up kind of killing the program. So I kind of looked around and said, like, what am I going to do now? And the message I got was, Hey, I think it's time to it's time to double down on the occult stuff and dig dig
real deep into that. And so so I did that and didn't look bast that's nice.
Nice.
Did any of you guys, Judith are Jenda, did you want to ask anything before I go through that?
Well, I will make them. I'll mention something that has come up many times Snack on the show is that a lot of occultists actually have, including myself obviously, have Catholic backgrounds, and so I'm not saying to be Catholic I'm not. I'm not a Catholic. I'm not a Christian myself. I'm not a pagan either, But you know, secret third thing tontrac writist. So but you know, uh, I think that there is a deep Rosicrucian hermaneutic. There's a deep
esoteric element to Catholicism. And I think that while it's not necessarily contained in how Catholicism is understood and practiced by like the outer or even maybe inner or even maybe secret congregations, whatever that looks like, I think that it's enough to sort of if people are interested in magic and they're like raised in that environment, they're going to have a certain defined set of symbols that is going to actually help them and sort of carry them through,
especially like if you're learning like a grippa like I used to be a big a grip of person. And obviously he says go to church like five days a week. There was a point where I was going to church five days a week so I could consecrate the seals, like that's just what you have to do. And I just think that while I don't do that now, I can understand how those things definitely carried with me and
carried me through understanding like more esoteric icography. So if Emoris wants to comment on that, I'd love to hear his perspective.
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a definite Catholic to occult pipeline, if you Well, even when I was at Sacred Space conference, we were kind of, you know, talking about our backgrounds and things, and I got to say, like seventy five percent of the people I talked to were all ex Catholics, So there's there's something in the sauce there. And you know, ah, at first, my first reaction was, yeah, there's a lot of magic in Catholicism. It kind of primes you for that, which is why
it feels so familiar to come to occultism. And then at that conference, somebody planted out there like, well, that's the right idea, but it's it's reversed because they took all their rituals from us, and just because they're more popular now, you know, we kind of give them primacy. But but it feels familiar because it came from different mystery cults to begin with. And uh, and that that tied up a neat little bow for me.
There's absolutely a lot of methriism, like undeniable undeniable amount of methraism and sort of what I call I think more an Aonic terms memory. So for me, like falsism is very like an of the Sun. But they've amalgamated a of the father things. You have a rising and obviously a rising and falling God, so that's not really an of the son. That's much more a of the Father. Then you have like the Mother who's both a virgin and a mother. That is not how I would necessarily
think of it. But they've kind of unified this into this Platonic trilogy or Platonic trinity, so they've kind of mixed the ans together, mixed the stories together. But I agree that there is a lot of sort of Platonic and neo Platonic and Pythagora, Pythagorian and many other you know, Kabbala has been revitalized within the church. Nick has covered this quite a few times, like you have these saints
mystics that reintroduce different kinds of Kabala, especially Pico. I mean, we wouldn't even really have a you know, the Golden Dawn and like for all the other knowledge purportedly of the of the tree. They would like nobody would really understand ball in modernity as a non Jew if you didn't have Pico. I mean, it's it's like that fundamental, like for even for me, it's like that fundamental. So yeah,
I definitely think that it's definitely in Cathalism. Now what I take issue with and say, is it coming from those places or is it kind of a syncretism which is what catholic is. Remember, it's like universalism. So there is an idea that maybe it is the Pax Romana religion is Catholicism, but they present it in this particular way. But maybe that's just a framing issue. Anyways, I'm not taking issue with what you said, memories. I just would maybe positive a different way. But thank you so much.
Yeah, one thing I did when I ask unless you had anything to say back when it came because I know you were a music teacher for a bit, do you think that helped U with maybe the way you like did this book I helped like try to teach this stuff to people.
Did it help it?
Yeah? Yeah, I think it did. I mean the you know, there there is a there is an art to teaching there's an art to like taking a complex concept and then breaking it down into its constituent parts and making it digestible so that other people can understand it. And also you know, using things like just anecdotes, figuring out different metaphors that might resonate with different people, and trying to teach a concept from a couple of different angles,
because everybody learns differently. I think learning how to teach definitely is a good skill to have if you're going to try and do instructional writing.
I mean, it's kind of even interesting, like what you said someone let me see, Oh okay, that was from him, all right, yeah, kind of like what you were saying before To me, I feel like this is a topic that is like very intricate and detailed there can be And I was wondering like if like the fact that of you teaching before helped you kind of like find different ways of trying to explain it very easy for people. It's probably exactly what you said, So thanks, uh your
work under the name the Acoustic Alchemist. The title itself feels like, you know, kind of like a bridge between sound and transformation and spiritual practice. What does an acoustic alchemy mean to you.
You know, it's just kind of a blend of the two things that I really like to do. So when I when I think about magical practice, the way that I usually use it most is more in like a more in like a mystic quality. I know that that some people are maybe more concerned with, you know, tangible results today, and some people are more concerned with evolving the soul. And I think I'm kind of more on that ladder, uh, that ladder place. And then the acoustic part is my other job is I'm a folk musician
and have been for about twenty five years. I gig regularly and pretty much always on acoustic instruments. It's kind of my kind of a thing.
Than did anybody have anything.
I didn't?
I'm sorry, I do have a question because you said you have the background in Catholicism. Was your motivation? Did you actually were you raised within the church that actually sang the masses and sang the songs that was a motivator behind you.
No, but I did go to a Benedictine college and so they had they had service a couple of times a day where they do the the traditional chanting, and I was part of the music ministry there, so so there is you know, there is like a deep connection there between kind of music and sacredness and and all of that kind of kind of blends together.
To me, that's an aspect that most people tend to forget about. Was part of the mass originally, and the ceremony part of everything. And even though we are whether we were tired or not, some ceremonial magicians, we tend to forget the vocalization, the vibrations that comes along with that practice. So I found that very unique.
Yea, in the abbey church where they would do the chanting, it's this huge vaulted thing and it's it was made in like this kind of brutalist architecture style, so there's it's unique in the fact that there are no internal columns supporting the roof, and so it's this enormous concrete chamber and it has a like a six second reverb, so when you sing something, it starts bouncing off all
the walls. And when you get all these monks chanting these things, you realize that the notes, the way that the chants are constructed, the notes are meant to harmonize with each other as they Bounce off the wall.
I covered like a week or two ago.
I had an episode that drops I think one Stone sing and I literally covered how there was.
I forgot exactly which place it was.
The reverberation was I think up to a like eleven seconds, and like it was actually like they do believe it was done so then like you're actually getting a completely different sound mixed with like everything bouncing around and the the voice. It was done on perpet and I was like, Yo, that ship is fucking crazy. It's pretty wild that they knew to do that stuff back then.
Yeah, they were, they were more clever, and we gave him credit.
For Yeah, they was like con cave like they were showing how like maybe sometimes like things that looks like it's cut in will do different remeberation than if it looked like it was like coming out it was.
I was like, oh wow, like damn, I've.
Actually got a coolie. I want to show you.
Yeah, g.
Oh, I want I'll say this really quick while he's doing the house orry he's coming oh wait, oh wait.
At a garage sale.
You got at a garage sale?
Yeah, yeah, I got it for twenty bucks. And then what I what? I realized when I came back home. I took a closer look at it, and I was like, you know, I think that's actually vellum. I think that's real vellum. And then as I started looking at what was actually on the page, I realized that it's not a traditional music staff, right, it's got five lines, but this is a unique like it's not a trouble clef or a bass cleft, right, it just denotes that this
is the middle pitch, whatever the middle pitches. And so this is a system of musical writing that predates traditional notation, back when they were just trying to figure out how to how to do musical notation. So this comes from like fourteenth century Spanish monastery, and this was part of a giant book that the monks would read out of. They'd be in these semi circular kind of risers, and they'd have one big songbook in the middle, and the print had to be big enough so they could all
read it. And so that's that's what this is. This is like a living piece of that history. And and somebody just giving it away for twenty bucks.
That's awesome, fun nice talk about the steal.
I thought it was pretty it's a pretty cool like connection to you know, to that that good of musical history, I thought, And there's so much there's so much energy in those songs because people have been singing those chants for you know, at least a thousand years, and there has to be some sort of agragoric energy around that kind of devotion.
Right, did you have anything you wanted to say?
Yeah, I just thought it was interesting that Judith picked up on the recitation of psalms and like their importance in the early Mass, because well, this is just my experience and this might be wrong, but I you know, I do come from a what was it at least twenty years ago, primarily Catholic country, and so my experiences are definitely mediated by like French Catholicism and how that works. But we were very much encouraged to never read the
psalms out loud. It was considered to be like definitely not forbidden, but it was understood to be a certain kind of spiritual technology and a potency and to have a formulation of Kabbala in it. And so they were always like when you know, they were like, you don't read them out loud, but you can, you know, you can read it the book, but you just can't recite them.
And so I do think it's interesting though, because I think for me, at least when I was starting to get into Kabala and like the Pentacle to Solomon, I was definitely drawn to plomic magic because it felt particularly transgressive. I'm just being honest, because it felt like they said no, so I was like, that means.
Yes, least to keeping it room. You know, that's something that I even, I guess kind of you mentioned something, Jim that you kind of made me think about a question I just wanted to ask him before, you know, with the Psalms and everything too, with Judith, with like all this stuff like the biblical names Psalms and like
and you know, all these angels and stuff. Was it easy for you too, because like I know, some magicians or some like witchcraft of people into you know, ceremonial magic or whatever, they're almost kind of coming in this because they're like, fuck the church, you know what I'm saying, So they don't even want to kind of even rely on anything. Well, which is it gets really interesting because then it's like if you're if you're acknowledging demons, so
you're really out of the Abrahamic ritual. But I'm not even gonna go that way, go there.
But if.
So, was it easy for you to kind of accept like all that stuff. Was that easy for you to adopt as as a magician or was there a little bit of like kind of pushback to accept that as well?
Well, I'd say, like the the way my personal theology has kind of wended. I mean, when when I really came into doing occult work, I was kind of in a place where I was more or less agnostic, and mostly because I couldn't reconcile a loving God with suffering in the world. And I think that's, you know, a
problem a lot of people have. And then when I you know, when I came to try and study kind of deeper occultism and I started reading some of the bigger texts, you know, I realized how much theology is actually kind of embedded in occultism. And it felt like a soft landing place because it was familiar. And I realized, like, especially after doing some magic and see being like seeing
that basically miracles are possible. Still I had to revise where my head was at and basically become a theist again. But this time with a different with a different focus, and and like, being a theist in occultism is a totally different experience than being a theist in an exoteric religion. And so I kind of decided, Hey, this is a kind of a have your cake and eat it too moment where I can I can have a faith, and I can look at occultism as like a really beautiful
expression of that faith. It doesn't have to be something that's at odds with what I believe at all.
Yeah, I can kind of like identify that myself. After I kind of like started, you know, getting heavy into magic and whatever, I had my own exp experiences, I could say that, like, I do have more of a reverence and more of a I guess or see more beauty within Catholicism and Christianity even too.
So I can see that. Yeah.
Yeah. So my dad is also kind of he's deeply Catholic, and I didn't know if he would read my book at all when it came out. And he came up for holiday one time and he's like, yeah, let's go out into the shot. I want to talk to you about something. And I thought, yep, here it comes, and he goes you know, I read your book, and I got to say, I agree with most of what you're saying. It makes sense to me. He's like it, I didn't think it would, but it actually a lot of it
fits with what I already believed. And he's like, I think we're a lot closer on this stuff than you think we are, which you know, and we proceeded to have a longer conversation about it. But I thought that was a very cool of him, and and be it made me realize, like, yeah, there probably is a lot of overlap between you know, Catholic mysticism and ecultism and and and why wouldn't there be?
I agree, yeah, exactly, why wouldn't there be. There's so much overlap between people who are magicians and who were Catholic, especially at one point, so there has to be. And I think, like, I'm not making a case for like bas Catholicism or anything like that, but I do think that it does a little bit get an unfair wrap among certain people because they grew up in a very Evangelical and or Protestant background and then they look at Catholicism and say, oh, it's Christianity. So I understand what
it actually is. But actually that's not really true. And I will say like, although my mom isn't my particularly I was esoteric minded parent, she definitely is the most open minded in terms of like what phenomena are externally, Like everything to her is God. But it's like, well, they can be a ghost, it can be a spirit, can be you know, a demon. It's like she's much more nuanced and like her approach to the world than
I think a lot of other people are. It's less manichy and than a lot of other Christian sects, So props to them for that.
Yeah, I always thought of like, even.
Just my experience, even when I was in the Oto, I used to kind of find it funny, like, you know, obviously, like I said before, some people I think get into this rebel against the church and uh oh yeah, fuck Catholicism and this and that, and it's like, did you realize you're going to a gnastic mess done by the Gnostic Catholic Church, right, like Catholic Like do you know the you know, it was based off of Russian Orthodox
like Catholicism. Kind of funny, but yeah, I think it's all over the place, especially in a lot of orders. I even think that stuff is still embedded in there.
Yeah. And and there's also I mean, if you're doing a service and it's you know, to uh, you know, any kind of devotion to a deity, there's there's kind of only so many ways you can do it.
I like that.
So, yeah, we've all got altars, we've all got chalices full of ship, We've all got stuff to bless, we've all got you know, robes to wear, and deities to pray to and songs to sing, and you know, yeah, we're beings of limited means. How much like how much more creative ship can you come up with?
Especially nowadays?
Oh, I do.
Want to inquire you're feeling when you realize that discussion between you and your father was a bridge between the perceived older generation of Catholics to doing the Catholic Christian mysticism. Because technically that discussion, right there was a bridge that most people didn't think was possible. Like Nick said, most people who got into a cult was a revolt against it. How was your feeling on that?
I mean, I think I think my feeling was just to give him a big hug. But but yeah, I mean it intellectually and emotionally it felt right like one of the things. One of the things about kind of having a Catholic upbringing that I still value and I'm coming to value more and more is uh So I went to Sunday School during the Jubilee years, and that's when they were really big into teaching social justice and
Sunday School. And this is back when the Catholic Church was, like Pope John Paul the Second was really kind of taken in a liberal direction, and so we were told every Wednesday, like, your job is to feed the poor and to stand up for the oppressed and to you know, give people clothing that need it, and visit the prisoners and all of these things that eventually formed like a bedrock of my morality and ethics. And then when I grew up, I'm like, if all of that's true, why
aren't you doing those things? And because the church had turned a corner at that point. And and what's what's interesting is I look at the occult community and I see people in the occult community doing those things, and I'm like, ah, there's where the you know, there's where the spiritual rubber meets the road. And so yeah, I think they're like, Catholicism has a lot of good things about it, but I think it's it's problem is that
it it's not embracing the good things right now. And and that's almost like when you're when you're when you deny yourself the ability to have your spirituality guide your moral and ethical decision making, a lot of that really good mystery is taken away and it becomes like a transactional faith that's that's dictated by what's in books and
the Catechism and the Bible. And and you miss the living word, you miss the part that brings us all together, the part that says we're all one living under this godhead, like the beauty and the mystery get and uh. And I think that's a mistake.
One thing I did want to ask you was we maybe started like kind of heading into the book a little bit.
I don't know if this is the case.
Was there maybe like one solid like certain pentacle that like stood out to you, that grabbed you and got you into this.
Hmm, this is this overall?
You know? Yeah? I think the I think the fourth pinnacle of Mercury is the one that that was the first one that I saw and I was like, ooh, that that's a sexy beast. But so that's that's the one that it's for knowledge, And the way that it works is kind of like a spiritual search engine where you put your question out to these spirits called the alatory and their job is to go find the information and bring it back to you and uh and it works.
It works like a charm and once, you know, once I tried it, I was like, oh, damn, yeah, this is gonna be one of my favorites I think from now on. But really, you know, I I love the pinnacles because first of all, they're they're pretty right, they're
well designed, they make sense, they're functional. It's a really you need blending of art and mysticism and history and culture where you see all these different opinions from people throughout history and they're they're they're all kind of informing each other. So there's like like religious pluralism is baked
into them, which I think is really cool. And they also work kind of like kind of like training wheels for magic in a way where like all the work's more or less been done for you and you can, oh, I need a pentacle for healing Okay, Well, it's got the angels on there already, it's got the shapes, it's got everything I need. It's it's boom. Somebody's already done my homework. And so I think that makes them a really great way to kind of get into doing some of this deeper magic.
That's a good point that you did point out that, even from my own experience, yet, it is nice to kind of have like a completed talisman then actually sitting there and trying to think of like how am I going to design my own like that can be really detailed. It is nice to have kind of like a template just the workolf of that you know what it's used to.
It's a good point. Yeah, did anybody have any questions?
Well, I love that that he brought up that Pentacle of Mercury, the fourth Pentacle. I used to This is a very chaos magic thing. But I used to amend the orations on the back when I wouldn't, like inscribe them, which you're not supposed to do. So don't do that.
If anyone's listening that, don't do that. But I used to do that, and so I remember what I changed that one too, But I won't recite it on air, but it is it's I like that that pentacle as well, and especially for students, I think that you could actually get a lot of use out of it, like putting it in your textbooks, like in the people I know, like in the old time, they would hide it in like the first page of the or the first binder of the Bible, like when you open the cover, you
can like sort of cut the binding just a little bit and then sort of slide in a pentacle. That's a really good one because that obviously grants all the knowledge and intelligences of mer Gray, so you can learn everything. So yeah, I agree, and I agree Nick that it's a really good technology just for it's like there, it's prepared, it has plants associated with it. As plants associated with it,
you have all the correspondences there. You don't even really need like a separate as long as you have a grip. But you can pretty much figure out like two to three things to consecrate that pentacle, even using a paper. I'm not sure how Emories feels about that, but I know sometimes like you can get okay, good, awesome, Okay, we're saying page. I appreciate you Thank you very much, Emory. I feel acknowledged. But yeah, you can be like a Botanica bro and definitely go and get some of those.
They're not correct, and I agree with that they're not. You know, the Hebrews a little weird, and sometimes the angelic signatures are weird, but you can make something work out of it if you're really you know, if you're motivated. I think that they're really good primer mm hmm.
Yeah, because it also gives you an introduction into, you know, these divine names, and like, the divine names are really the core of how like how Cabala my seat works. So getting a good handle on those and getting a good handle on the angle names is kind of fundamental knowledge and you can get that with the pinnacles.
One thing I didn't want to ask, and then I'm gonna actually really start getting into the book. What was it like, what was your practice or what was uh what was I guess, your daily life or your experience with these pentacles. I guess kind of like a little bit of a background of what you were doing with them before you started writing the book.
I was mostly using them to figure out stuff with my career, and I'll give I'll give you one story that that kind of highlights. So I was working with Pinnacles and a couple of different angel demon pairs and I can't remember exactly which ones at the moment, but I was kind of asking for a different path in life and and how to make an occult business work, like what does that even look like? And I got
invited to go play a show. And at the show, I met a guy, and this guy invited me up to his farm like two hours north and while there, he said, oh, yeah, well, actually, what I've been doing most of my life is working on C and C, which is like computer controlled milling and engraving. And I
had never heard of it. And he showed me this barn full of machines and uh, and he goes, tell you what, man, I will give you a couple of machines to practice on and learn this, and we'll do it in exchange for maybe my wife can come down to your studio and sing a few tracks. I think she'd really liked that. And I was like, yeah, all right. So this guy supported me learning C and C, got me all the software, got me all of all this
stuff set up. And now that C and c Like I've got four or five machines in my own little workshop here and that's that's what I do. But I you know, I asked for a new career, a new pathway, and the spirits literally just put it in my lap and gave it to me for free and said we're just asking you to put in the time and that that was one of those moments from like, so that's how magic works.
Okay, I like that a lot.
How you even mentioned like you got to put in the time, Like, yeah, it was, it was put in your lap. But if you didn't probably spend the time to learn how to use that shit, what was it going to do for you? You know what I'm saying. So, yeah, nothing, you still had to put something into it.
But yeah, I love that.
Because you're part of the team right when you ask, when you ask spirits to help do stuff for you. There's stuff they can do because they're incorporeal and not necessarily time bound. They've got some advantages over us, but they don't have bodies. We have advantages over them in some ways, and there's things that we need to do that they can't do. And so it's yeah, we've all got responsibilities and we're all part of the team.
Love it.
Does anybody have any questions or anything they want to add? All right, so hemry What was it that made you think we need another book on Salomonic pentacles? What's different about? What do you think is different about yours that you wanted to bring to the table.
Well.
I decided to focus on this for a book mostly because in a lot of the online forums that I was a part of, there was just so much misinformation and I was I was tired of fielding the same ten questions over and over and over. I'm like, I'm just gonna write a book about it, and let's just you know, set it straight. So that, yeah, that definitely played a part, trying to think you know that that really was like the biggest motivator. Once I got into the book, though, I realized that all the stuff I
was reading, all the preparatory material, was really dense. I mean it was, well, I should say it went I want to be there two ways. Either it was like a catalog of things that are already publicly available and it's was just fluff, or it was super dense academic research that's really meant for other occult academics, and it's great information, but the amount of effort it takes to deconstruct that information is more than most people want to
put in. So I'm like, basically, how do I how do I make a shallow end of the pool and and give people a way to like get into it slowly and when they want to take a deep dive, go read some Skinner, go read some ranking. You know, those resources are out there, but it is it is daunting if that's your first foray into it. So I'm trying to just kind of write something that bridges the gap.
I love that you said that. Thank you so much, Memories for that. That was awesome. That was a great answer to rectify, Like that's what even Steven Skinner and like we like Nick well, I didn't enter him, only Nick obviously invited him on the show and invited me on.
And then so I was able to speak to David Rankin in which and I was kind of like nervous, like let's just say that, but he was honestly one of the nicest, most well read, smartest, and also the most open minded in terms of like I asked him a relatively hard question about how to reconcile the outer three planets with the Kabalistic Tree, with also the Joe Tish understanding of the two shadow planets Rahu Katu. Maybe you apply them to Uranus and Neptune, like that's how
I think of it. And he was like, yeah, I love that idea, and he was like, it was it was not like speaking to people who come from a rigid system. But I agree with you that those books that he did with Steven Skinner are insane. It's like very daunting. I'm so glad that someone has stepped up like you and to like really do it, because there's so much misunderstanding about the seals, the pentacles and what
they actually can do and what they actually are. And I think if people look at them and they say, okay, so these are part of like maybe it's a little bit of Christian mystery tradition maybe, like there's clearly that element, but then there's also like maybe these more quote unquote gnostic mystery calls, maybe even like a Hellenic mystery called elements, but there's also other elements. And that's what I find
particularly interesting. They're like a material culture that is bridging the gap between like Arabic magic between like the Persian mughalized kind of tonric stuff that was coming out of like Kashmir, which is why I'm personally interested in. And it's also like bridging the gap between like that Semitic stuff that Peter Gray has been talking about in his
Lucifer series. So I just I find it. Really I'm so happy that somebody's final doing it, because if people often used to say that I was like doing old man magic, and I was like, it's really not. It's like it's it's not old man magic. You can chaos magic, you can utilize them in different ways, but there's something really powerful here. So I'm sorry, Nick. So I'm glad that somebody is taking up that mantle.
Well. And I I will say that, you know, there's been some criticism that I that I think is actually well founded about what I've what I've written by traditionalists who because some of the some of the stuff that I that I'm putting out in there is dismissive of what's in the Grim War, mostly because I'm I'm looking at the ritual and I'm going, all right, what are the what are the essential elements? And basically what what can I trim to make this easier for people to
get into it? Not with the intention of saying those things aren't important, but with the intention of saying, how can I get people from you know, not necessarily from zero to sixty, but from zero to forty and then if they want to take it from there and do the full ritual after that, well, there's plenty of resources for you. But but like, how how to make you
know nobody not nobody. There are a few people, I think that want to consecrate a pentacle by starting with a nine day fast and a fourteen day purification, And I mean they're quite extensive, and the equipment's quite expensive, and it's like, I don't know. My fact was, can we cut some fat off? But I think traditionalists look at that and they're like, no, no, we like we love the fat, that's the stuff we like. And I'm like, cool,
then then do that. But also maybe there's a you know, maybe there's a middle ground.
There's definitely a middle ground to this. I think that I think actually your approach is probably way more with what the quote unquote kids are doing. The kids have like utilized who doo and sort of like that the quicker consecration methods, like maybe they're still doing the full oration, Like that's what I used to do, and I used to like do purification productices just like accorded to an Agrippa.
But I never dressed up. I never you know, I wouldn't even necessarily do it at the correct planetary time. I would always like on a correct planetary day, of course. But you know, if you're in a modern life, you don't necessarily you're not necessarily at home at like I'll use imagine number like three thirty in the afternoon to like, you know, get that pentacle dealt with. So you do the best you can, I guess in the modern world. So I'm more of your approach memories is like I
think there's so much fat you can trim off. I think a lot of it is unnecessary. I think of a lot of the rituals unnecessary. I'm not saying it's not useful, and there isn't like metaphysical potency and that sure, But I also think you can reproduce like all sort of ritual elements. You can reproduce them in small and big ways, and you don't necessarily have to follow it as like a manual of like a guide of ritual worship, like you can actually think for yourself, be like, how
can I add this? Maybe I'm not going to make Helia bore incense to burn in my apartment.
Well, there was there was a passage in a book called like Practical Practical Practical Cabbalistic Symbolism. I think Gareth
Knight might be the author something like that. He said, yeah, he said that one of the one of the things about occultism is that if you are if you were into that tradition, you don't have the benefit of living on a monastery and basically not having other things to do every day, because their life is prayer, right, and so if they want to pray at three thirty three on a Tuesday, they can just stop whatever they're doing
and go do that. But we have to live in the world, and so we have to find a way to basically be monks amidst all of you know, well, we're still changing diapers and doing dishes and going to work and you know, fixing the car and like that's so it requires a different set of skills and a different approach.
I think that's awesome that you mentioned Garth Night in his book. I've I talk about him all the time whenever I referenced Cabala, and I've never heard anybody else ever mentioned his name. I think that book is amazing with the paths in it too. That that book honestly it changed it probably changed my life to an extent because of the way they started looking at the Cabala with with help on the paths, because that was the only thing I ever really read like that that I
actually know what I should reach out to him. Yeah, that would be mind blowing if I got him on the show, because he was really very.
Influential on my magical path. Did anybody have any questions?
No, okay, well I'll shout out one thing if it's okay, is that to just bring up David Rankin again, like because Emery's brought him up. And when he came on the show, he was even like, I don't do ritual magic anymore, like he he doesn't because he has two young kids. That's exactly what he said, like, I'm you know, I have a real life. I'm like a dad, I'm you know, And but he meditates and he does a lot of pathworking in his mind, is what he said.
So I think, like for me, now that I've matured a lot in my in my own path, in my own mark and sort of reckon, you can learn to reconcile a lot of magical things in meditation and in of course your mind and sort of all the cabalistic pathworkings can really be done in your mind. Now, do we have the attention, the you know, the sort of focus, the single point at will? I don't know for everybody else, but I think a lot. The older I've become, the
more I understand that is true. So I want to say, like, I'm I think even David Rankin would agree with Emory's like, you don't need all the you don't need all the trappings for sure, thank you sir.
When people here just I guess this is kind of like for the new people. You know, when people hear pentacle, they often think of a five pointed star, modern witchcraft type of thing. How would you say, Solomon, pentacles are different from what other people might think of when it
comes to those type of traditions. I mean, i'd even say, like, you know, some people, especially if they're into more of witchcraft of Wicca, you say pentacle, they think you again, you know, a piece of wood maybe or something with the pentagram on it, completely different.
Yeah, and that's where that's where, you know, English is a funny language. We got we got words that mean more than one thing a lot of the time. And so yeah, pinnacle describes that shape, but in the sense of solemonic pinnacles. It comes from an Italian uh etymology. So pend means to hang, and then call is a col is neck, so penda hall would be something that hangs from the neck. And then that phrase penda call
just got turned into pentacol. I think in a seventeenth or eighteen century French manuscript somebody made the first kind of mushed those things together and describe the pentacles that way, and it stuck. So so yeah, they they come. It's the same word, but it comes from different comes from
different angles. And you know, trying to figure out when the pentacles got mushed together with the rituals that are around the pentacles is something that we still don't know, like we don't we don't know where those pentacles necessarily came from. And in my book, I took you know, what was the the kind of academic opinion at the time is that they were kind of assumed to come from this, this other book of Jewish talismanic magic called
the Suffrahao Tote or the Book of the Signs. And I got a chance to talk to Sarah Mastros, who also has an incredible book on pentacles, and so she and I will hang on every now and again and just talk pinnacles and magic and shit. And we were talking about the Otote and she did a translation of it, and I said, yes, And you know, after doing the translation and all this academic work, what do you think now?
She goes, well, after having done the work, now, I do not think that the pentacles came from that source. And I'm back to square one and have no idea where they came from. So all we know is that at some point in history the Jewish talismans got mushed up with the Greek essentially a recension of the Hygramantia. And we're not sure who did it, and we're not sure why they did it, but that's that's the tradition we've been handed. It's which is also I think it's cool, right.
So you've got essentially these Greek rituals that have been semitized and Christianized and blah blah blah blah blah, and then you've got these Jewish talismans that fit into that tradition and now people are using them together. And I'm like, man, I just wish that in other areas of religion and spirituality we could do more of that where we're like, oh, you've got a cool thing. I've got a cool thing. Let's put them together and see we can make an
ultra cool thing. I think we get a lot farther if we took religion that way, then you know, shooting each other for it.
Totally agree, just real quick, I be I don't, and I think you might got something you wanted to say, but real quick, I did want to I did want to say, like, I think that was great that you even mentioned the difference of spelling. I totally even forgot about that because like you can even look at the Golden Dorn and then they're pentacle.
That's a hexagram. So yeah, that.
Whole thing of the changing of the words and stuff, I totally forgot about that. That's a whole lot of like, like you said, it's like a rabbit hole to go down to try to figure out how that ever even happened, you.
Know, and sometimes you just got to throw your hands up, you know, like like goiesha spirits, Right, where did they come from? Why are they named X, Y or Z? I mean, we've got a couple of sources, but like most of those sources were actually written to make fun of the people who were doing that magic, to say, how ridiculous is this that they believe this crazy shit? And now we're using them as essentially prime sources for
making that stuff. So it's super messy and it makes no sense, and and we get to a point where it's just we don't know. Maybe somebody will discover a book, maybe there will be you know, archaeological evidence in the future, but right now, there was just a lot about the transmission of these documents that we don't we don't have good records.
Yeah, that's interesting too that you even said like kind of like people poking fun of it is I've been like kind of going through like the history of Christianity because it was like so like to me, it was really interesting, like the first few hundred years, and uh, even then, it's like some of that stuff I have to I only have evidence of what they were really doing by you know, hostile critics, and it's like basically, I'm like even then, it's like I have to wonder,
like how serious was it if you didn't like the person already? But yeah, sometimes you really only have information going by what the person who didn't agree with it was saying about it.
So and and imagine, yeah, imagine that like a if your only source was somebody who hated what you were doing, what they would say about your work, and how accurate that might be, eh, probably not.
Like I was covering U Valentinus and it was just funny when I read this one thing, I forgot who it was. It might have been you cbous who said this is somebody and maybe justin Marta, but they're like one of their ways of like discrediting, And was like, oh, he supposedly went on some like voyage and the ship got wrecked, but like he somehow survived and made it back but was perverted in the mind. And I was like,
there you go with the typical Christian shit. Either you're a pervert or your worshiping Satan, like like I don't know, it's just like at that point, like you know what I'm saying, how serious he gonna take a fucking comment like that, like tell me how it was shipwrecked equals your being a pervert. Now, Like I just don't understand the correlation. And it's just like, how serious should you take that quote?
You know what I'm saying, when you could equally turn it around and go, this person is in a shipwreck and they were miraculously saved. They must be you know, they must have something of value to contribute.
Yeah, oh that was good.
You know, God God favoring them, you know, you know, I mean, you can take that in so many different ways. Did anybody have anything before I go? I think, Jin, did you presive something you wanted to say?
Uh no, that's totally okay, it's totally okay. I've missed the window, but that's fine. I think syncretism is really cool, and I think that is actually what magic is about, is that it's really about all the technologies coming together.
And I think that you can see this as long as you don't take like a strictly dogmatic view of like when and where, like you can easily prove this with like Central Asian like religion contra in particular, Like it's all of these technologies coming together, all these ideas coming to together, and a lot of discourse and a lot of heated debate. That's something that people, a lot of people in the O cale community really run away from. Is this like idea that you can be discursive and
be like geverratic towards ideas. And that's okay sometimes as long as you're respectful, But it's actually really important in terms of like the philosophy of religion or the theology, or especially in magical terms, like we should be talking about what works, what doesn't work, why we don't need to retain exactly the same thing as like two hundred years years ago, which is also a reconstruction, Like a lot of hermeticism is just a reconstruction of like the
last twenty years much less like the you know, Elfhaeus Levy or whatever, and like he was doing a reconstruction. So it's I think it's totally okay that we can think like quote unquote progressively. We can sort of like update with the times and be like, okay, we have this thing called the internet. We can speak to each other. We may not agree, but let's look at what we all have. I totally agree. I think that's the true magician's spirit, the true Silk Road spirit.
You could say, yeah, as long as we don't devolve into you know, golden down dick wagging, which is like.
Well I don't like them either. So there you gotories.
I was speaking specifically of like Crowley and Mathers and those. I mean they destroyed their own They destroyed their own organization because their egos were just too big and they couldn't allow diverse opinions in the same room.
That's really good point.
You know, people shit on theosophy and I'm like, I'm not a theosophist myself, but like you have to admit that the early turn of the century project of like trying to synthesize like a new sort of gnostic or neo gnostic framework for like the masses as well as for people who are interested in as erka. That's probably a good idea. And so sometimes I wonder, like why all the hate goes to this these I theisart whole ideas,
Like I don't agree with a lot of it. I'm not saying it's all correct, but I think that there's definitely a like their project was actually useful and generative and good and like we should be looking and incorporating all the new gnostic texts that we found both in China and of course the ones in Egypt. But there's
so many more. There's like there's like literally thousands and thousands, and there's all these Buddhist texts that we are just being translated, like literally people did not know they existed ten years ago. There's all these other kinds of like Zoroastrian Jervinism, like all of this stuff is like we did not have any We were like working on a
very limited source. Now we have a lot more. And it it's not unlimited, but we have a lot more source texts now, and so yeah, I think it's important to be expansive and and I agree with you memories. So I did make a Golden bln joke, which I do do sometimes because they do tend to be very dogmatic. I think this is like not an unfair criticism. Even in their sort of appraisal of Kabala, they tend to be very fixed, like, oh, the logos must appear on
this path and this is the only correspondence. But if you study Hebrew Kabala, you know that that's not true. Right away because you're like, well, the letters are light, so they move through the paths and so they never stay fixed. So you know, it's just but gods are
just a perspectible thing. And I don't ever take it personally myself, but I just think it's a funny kind of thing where, Yeah, the people who want to be syncretic tend to be very dogmatic, and the people who are more dogmatic tend to be look for themselves in syncretism, like they will try and oh, you see a lot of based pagans do this is that they will look at Buddhism and be like, oh, this is proof of like we existed two thousand years ago in exactly in
our belief system, and this is exactly how they understood it. And that's not true either. But we can say both things are like not true and that's okay. It doesn't negate you. It just is like we can you know, So I any Golden Dawn members listening, I apologize. I'm sorry. I don't kiss your feet or anything, but you guys are a little rigid.
Yeah, one thing I will say kind of like I guess going along with what you're getting at, and the same thing jin I guess was getting out here is that that's kind of like one of the ideas I had with the show when I wanted to expand it. There was a lot of different people that were on here that had different backgrounds, and for me, I just thought that was like kind of like taking as cheesy as it sounds, sounded like taking like Crowley seven seven seven, and it's.
Like you're that column. You're that column.
You're that column, because like you're into that pantheon or you're into that stuff. And like everybody was still even though they didn't necessarily follow the same type of structure, we all had a lot of commonalities that would still meet because you know, I think that's going to happen so uh and with everybody getting along, I think, you know, you that's when you start to learn from one and one and one another.
You know.
Well, I think too that if we're seeing similar ideas pop up at different times and in different cultures, that's evidence that we're all pointing at the same thing. Yes, right, I mean, there are there are people that look at pyramids being constructed in different parts of the world as evidence that aliens came and told people how to build pyramids, and I'm going that or that is the most efficient
way to stack rocks. And like, people all over the world figured out how stack rocks in this particular way, and it happened to last a really long time. And so we were comparing different religious traditions and they're all seem to be pointing at the same thing. I kind of look at this saint like, yes, we're all we're all figuring out how to stack the same spiritual rocks the same way, and that should be evidence that we're onto something.
Great.
Example, Uh, Jinny Judith anything, Yeah, all right. One thing I didn't want to ask a little bit more about the pentacles when it comes to like even like the divine names on there, only because like I've even kind of seen a difference for myself from being involved. I guess in the ceremonial magic community, do you take them as like something that are like more symbolic theological? Is it even something that you think needs to be vibrated?
How do you, like how serious do you take like the divine names on these seals.
There's a there is a divine name on something, immediately it should be respected. I try and in tone the names when I can. In some cases it doesn't make it doesn't make as much sense depending on the operation. But the way I look at divine names is so we all have different names in our lives too, Right, So when I'm you know, when I've got a guitar in my hand, I'm the musician guy. When I've got
a book in my hand, I'm the author guy. When I put both of those down, and when I walk back into my house after this, I'm going to be Dad, you know. And and God has an infinite number of names as well, because God's an infinite being. And therefore, like when you're using a specific divine name, what you're doing is basically talking to God and saying, this is how I need you to show up today. I need this aspect of you. And then and then God knows
how to show up. I mean probably know it's already anyways, but we're making it clear.
Yeah. I like that.
A lot of times I've had to explain to people like stuff with that, especially when it comes to like you know, the sound and the words and just knowing how jamatia you can get. I would say, like, like I would look at it as like if the radio frequencies. The whole thing, I guess is God, but each specific channel is like to type in to like tap into that one little aspect of the whole thing, you know, to get very specific.
So kind of like how you said that.
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. I like, I like radio frequencies are good. That's a good.
Analogy anything from the other two.
I just think it's a good point in general. I mean, it's like it's about octaves, right, Like there are different free vibes for like, if you want to say very cabalistically, like the sufferer, you can say that each density has a different name, has a different vibration, has a different intonation, resonance, syllable, consonant, maybe even a vowel, maybe even a sort of silent space in between the words. It's a very important contric concept at least, like the space between words actually has
magical potential in and of itself. So I'm not as good as Hebrew. I'm definitely more of like a Central Asianist and like my sort of scope of knowledge. But there's definitely a way that you know, part of system, the five density system makes a lot of sense to me.
I mean, and physics is, you know, modern physics is showing us that a matter and energy are totally swampable and be that at the core of both is these vibrating strings of energy, and that vibration is really at the core of everything that we are. Like even you know, I think black holes tend to vibrate at like a B flat that's thirty octaves below the human hearing range, which means that that B flat has a like a
wave that's ten thousand years long. Just I just imagine that, and then imagine that, you know, we're looking at the cosmic microwave background radiation that's basically the Big Bang ringing a bell that's still ringing, right, and we're living inside that. We're living inside that universe that is ringing with the first stirrings of creation, and we're still in it, and we're all still vibrating at different frequencies all the time.
So yeah, why wouldn't we tap into that with our magic and make use of it?
That was wild?
Ill like that the way you explained that, that was pretty funny.
Nice general, Judith, where you get going?
I think I do have a question, but it's not on particular this line of thinking. But I wanted to ask you, when it comes to magical practitioners and the pentacles, what is the most uh misunderstood concept that you've come across when it comes to that.
Mm hmm, I think, well, probably the wealth pinnacles. When people want when people want to get uh get ahead financially. I think the you know, the tendency is to jump to Jupiter four because Jupiter four is the pentacle for growing wealth. But the trick with Jupiter four is that it it does its best job growing wealth when you already have wealth, so it's for it's for taking what
you have and growing it. There are other pentacles forgetting the initial amounts of wealth, so like Jupiter one, Jupiter two, those are both really great for like entrepreneurial type activities. Jupiter seven will help keep you out of poverty. So if you're if you're at a point where you have like no money and no job, Jupiter four is not going to.
Do much for you.
You want to go to Jupiter seven. You want to go to Jupiter seven. First, get out of poverty. Go to Jupiter two. Get an idea, build on it, get it, you know, get something in your bank account. Then go to Jupiter four and grow within your bank account. So you want to take a multi step approach, you try and jump right into like a Scrooge mcdug type of thing, It's not going to work.
That's why I laughed when you said that, because I was like, oh, that means if you have no pennies, it's just going to multiply not having pennies in your bank account or anything like that.
Yep, that was a great explanation memories, like for real, Like I'm really impressed, and I'm not always the most impressed, but I'm really impressed. So Nick knows I'm not a snot, I promise, I'm just like I think you have a refreshing approach to magic and especially the seals, and like they are dynamic, Like I was even thinking, like this is even how like I think of it is a little different than you. But I agree with everything you said.
I think that's a perfect way to pathwork through Jupiter. I would even say, like you could go fifth pentacle Mercury if you have, like if you're feeling blocked, no no opportunities, and then you could like work that a little bit before you start even working with the pentacles. Of Jupiter. So you could just like open those roads sort of like let things come in, you know, like let's let's set to the energy like move a little
bit rather than you know, stay stagnant. And I think that even if you look at the orations for the pentacles of Jupiter, like oh that which a bideth in mountain Zion cannot be removed and you know, last forever. But so it's it's it's it's kind of like it keeps things there. And I think that you're even touching on that. It kind of, yes, it magnetizes, it draws things in, but it's a really good builder. And so yeah, you kind of need to make sure that the energy
doesn't stay stagnant. And I also think it's interesting since you brought up the pentacles of Jupiter, is that two of them can be used for protection, and people don't really associate those pentacles with protection. And so I guess I'm going to follow up Judith and ask you, Emories, what do you prefer for protection Pentacles of Mars or pentacles of Sondern.
You know, it really depends. So the the Jupiter protection pinnacle is good for your body. If I'm doing protection for like spirit. I think I usually I'd probably reach for a fourth of the moon because that that's kind of that's kind of got some good blanket protections, you know. And this isn't aside, but I'm just my brain spinning on it as I I did want to mention that when people are thinking about wealth, thinking about using just
Jupiter pinnacles is limiting. I think too, because if you want to be someone who has wealth, it certainly pays to be charismatic. And so getting a second of Venus in there, that's going to help you build your business because people people like spending money with people they like more than people they don't, So use second of Venus
to help you be a likable person. Also, if you're going into business for yourself, discipline is really important, So use a first pinnacle of Mars and use that to give you some martial discipline to like make your strategic plan, finish your shit, like get stuff out on time, you know, because if you don't, your business is not gonna last very long. So you can you can use other pinnacles from other sets for wealth, just you got to think about how they all apply to your situation.
You mentioned something's very interesting when it comes to dealing with the pentacles, which is which is a reoccurring theme which I think when most people starts dealings with pentacles and talismans they forget, is that you have to actually make an adjustment, whether in your dealings or your personality. It's not just using the pentacles and expecting it to
come to fruition. There's a change that we have to make too, which is a maybe you could say, whether you agree with me, a way of self development.
Yeah. There's there's a line in my book that I pulled from the Zohar that talks about this, and they're talking about it in terms of like a romantic union, and the summary is basically, there's a guy who's asking the rabbi, why can't I find a woman? You know, ancient male loneliness epidemic. And the rabbi's response was, well, instead of trying to find the perfect woman, have you tried being the perfect partner that someone would want to be attracted to? And I think about that in Pinnacle
work all the time. You know, it's it's easier to manifest a change within yourself than it is to try and get the rest of the world to conform to you. So if you use the pinnacles as a way to become more of what you want to see, to become the kind of person that gets the kinds of things you want, I think that kind of transformative personal alchemical type magic is a really powerful use for them. Then a lot of people overlook, thank you, great, it's a good question.
One thing I did want to ask kind of like I guess, like maybe when you go into your research or whatever, like a lot of old grimars someone like almost contradictory, some are copied through other manuscripts or you know, aren't even a full variation, you know, how like you know, things can show up here and there. How do you decide and like preserve like what uh what you're going to use? How to adapt it to what's right and wrong?
Hmmm? Well, I mean for this book, I decided to just pull everything from the Crowley Mathers edition because that's the one that most people have, so that seemed like a good place to start. But I think a lot of the commentary have got about him are informed by other versions of the manuscripts, and and I'll just be honest that, like most of the manuscripts that are out there. I can't I can't read because I don't know those languages.
So so the stuff that I had to work with is this limited to what was either written in English or translated already by someone else. And there's not really a whole lot of those. I think there's, you know, less than ten. A lot of them are written in French and German and Italian and and I can I can pick little sentences out of there, but I not enough to like get real context and do deep work.
Gotcha, thank you, Judith or Jen.
I just want to say that I thought both you and Judith had great questions, and it's like a little intimidating to fall up with those those really good questions. Honestly, I'm jealous.
Thank you.
Yeah, actually yeah, I was telling you, dude, I was very impressed with hers. Actually, yeah, thank you.
Judith.
Oh can you, like, can you maybe like you know what, I should have actually grabbed one to throw up on the screen.
I't want to try to do.
That now, but do you think you can kind of maybe give us an idea? I mean you might, you might have done it throughout talking about them, but can you kind of give us like an idea of like what actually is like all these layers that would be typical to like a pentacle, like like you know, you know what I'm trying to get out.
Like, yeah, like what makes it a pinnacle and not just a drawing?
Yeah?
Yeah. So the first thing is that a pinnacle always has a double C circle around the outside, basically establishing it as its own sacred space. Inside that double circle is the indicatory psalm, usually in Hebrews, sometimes in Latin, and then inside yeah, we've got you know, usually there's some sacred geometry going on. Pretty much always a divine name.
The angelic names that you'll see on those are generally only found on the emissary pinnacles, which each planetary set has one pinnacle that has the names of the four angelic emissaries for that planet, and that one always appears on the back of whatever pinnacle you've got, and it's it's most most of the time it's the first pinnacle on the set, but not always, like it's the second of the Sun and it's the third of Mercury, so some of the sets are a little bit different, but yeah,
that's that's what you're going to see. The the angelic names, and then you know, I think the constructs that are on the inside of them are basically just designs that are trying to either take words or even single letters that in Hebrew have a certain esoteric meaning, and they're trying to focus that energy with the artwork to basically
show what that pentacle is supposed to be doing. But it basically reads like like an esoteric I don't know, like an instruction manual for the angels you're calling saying this is what we like. Yeah, so that's a that's a protection one.
Right, Sorry, I had to do it. Fifth pench cold Mercury wrote open l app my favor.
So yeah, so you can see around the outside what I was talking about at the top there. This one's got the Star of David, but it's not always the Star of David. Sometimes it's an equal arm cross. Sometimes it's like a weird shape that I haven't been able to identify. But I call it the keystone glyph, and they've always got a keystone glyph. But yeah, that's that's what I would say kind of defines a pentacle.
I'm sorry, Emories, I didn't mean to throw off our Marshall discussion I should have pulled up a pentacle of Mars. I just went with what was first in my head. But you know, you're totally right. And I think also you could read like the megas like the Celestial Intelligencer, and especially for this one, I think this is a good illustration of it. But there are pentacles of Jupiter
with like the four way crossroads, you could say. And so if you imagine in your mind like walking on a physical crossroads, you could say, like, like you said, this this is like the it is the microcosmic construction of the macrocosmic magicians space. So if you are on the crossroads, you will visualize like the Yadevave and like all the things, and you're evoking like the whatever angels of mercury in this case, or the intelligences or some
kind of planetary force. So you're going to do works with the air and it sort of that will be how it's sort of laid out. But that's what this is. It's like the container for like the Greater Ceremonial working in a small vessel. And so I just want to say, I really love the way you described it, and I didn't mean to throw you. I apologize.
No. No, I like the way you just described it that. Yeah, yes to everything you said.
Nice.
Nice.
Did anybody have any other questions or anything they wanted to add? I might just ask one more question and wrap this up. So if you got anything else, let me know now. No, all right, Emories with this book, what is the one thing you hope people take away from this book?
I hope that they are able to see solemnonics as a workable system they can bring into their life and use it in a meaningful way to make life better for themselves and everyone else on the planet.
That's great. I like that.
Thank you very much, Emory's for coming on. I know we had to even reschedule. I think I picked Eastern and didn't even realize it. So thank you very much for coming on. I was really really looking forward to this, and I was looking forward to, you know, if Jink and make it too, because I knew he was big into this stuff.
And Judia, thank you so much for coming on.
Great questions before we let you let everybody know what's up with your stuff. Judith, please remind everybody where they can find all your amazing work.
First, thank you, thank you Cardinal for having me here. Thanks Nick. Thank you Emories. Actually you've opened up. You've made the Solomon workings a little bit more understandable and feasible for me, So I thank you for that and everyone else. You can find me on YouTube x and on Spreaker as the Loom and jin oh yes, Jin is always a pleasure seeing you.
Thank you, Juter, I appreciate you making it for real and Gin and Ninja what is going on?
So please let everybody know what's up with you. Well.
Thank you so much Cardinal obviously for inviting me. This is like I mean, you knew. I mean we've known each other so long. It's like, yeah, this is my this is what I like. And I just want to say thank you so much Judith for that shout out a special at the end, Memories. Honestly, like seriously, I'm like blown away. I think this was a great episode. I think you explained the Pentacles in like a very modern not I don't think you're a shoeing traditionalism in
any way. I just think you're kind of, like I would say, you're liberating them a little bit from the you know, stuffy old fashion like kind of librarian style magic. But I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I seriously, I am impressed and I'm glad that somebody who is doing this. I think, you know, we live in an a on of magic right now, especially online. It's like every every knowledge, all the systems are available, so we need like that little bit of gevaratic discernment.
And that's also part of different too, Like you know, it's not just all fun in games. You have to have a little discipline, a little refinement, a little discursive fire, and like we were saying, and that's okay, all that's okay, Just like the pentacles of Mars. They can be dangerous and you can burn yourself with them, but they're they're they're important, and they're really useful and they have a lot of power, just like all of them do. And it's a good way to learn the you know seven.
I know I've been the most critical of the seven planets probably on the panel for the last two years, but you know, it's a it's a great way to learn the seven planetary elements and sort of their natures. And that's how I learned too. So I'm not saying anything you know, outside of myself by saying that so, thank you so much, Memories. If people want to check me out, they can check me out on Wukong Reborn,
w uk O and g Reborn. That's on Twitter or at Threshold Saints both on x Twitter and also ig that's the show account Spotify, Apple and of course Threshold Saints subsect dot com and our YouTube channel which is YouTube dot com slash at the True Gray Lodge t r V. So that's our group show. It's every it's bi monthly right now, it's Friday night, Gnostic Mass. Let's we do. We're not doing a series at the moment, but we might who knows. And so thank you guys so much. I really appreciate it.
Great show, Beyon really appreciate, like it's it's fun to come on a podcast where you guys are asking like deep intelligent questions and I really get it. We get a chance to like get into it and I love it. And uh and Judith, I want to show you I got I got my loon pin on because I'm in Minnesota. So that's that's our.
Thank you. Not many people understand the symbol of.
The loom, but yes, please Emory, let everybody know where they can like find any of your work, promote your books, you know, whatever you want to let people know.
Yeah, you can. Uh, you can find all of my wares and stuff at the Acoustic Alchemist on Etsy. I'm on social media just under Emorus Abner. There's there aren't any others, so it'll be easy to find. And I've got an I wish band that is going to be uh we're going to be headlining the Mystic South Conference in Atlanta this year, so if you want to check out we h. We released an album earlier this year and the album's called The Clips and the band is called the Mac and Cheese Band.
Absolute. When is that event?
Mid July? Yeah, it's the it's the same weekend as the World Cup. I can. I can get exact day here in one second. It's July July seventeenth and eighteenth, yep, and you'll be there, so so yeah, seventeenth and eighteenth of July. If so, if you want to, if you're gonna go to the Mystic South Conference, then we're going to be playing some jigs and reels and everybody can come dance and it'll be a fun time.
I might actually check that out. I'm in North Carolina. So interesting.
Uh.
Thank you very much though for coming on. Like, like Evan Jin said, I thought that was awesome.
Uh.
You know, there's a lot of people who listen to this show that you know are fairly new to this still and your book. I feel like it's kind of like Solomonic Pentacles for dummies, you know. I think you like you really like you really have a good way of presenting it. And again, like I even said, like, there's a lot in this book.
It's a big book. There's a lot of pages.
Like I was, I swear I was probably was like, holy shit, this is an actual book.
I'm just keeping it real.
There's some books that Llewellen has sent me authors and I'm like, what the hell is this? Keeping it real? So, uh, thank you. You know, I really hope that, uh you know, if my fans are interested in this stuff, they take a look at your work. So, uh again, thank you for coming on I'm pretty sure we can probably have you on in the future again and talk about more stuff.
I really would be interested when you put out that other bok of those other things, adding the goetic demons and the angels together, I would that I really would like to get your unfold.
So oh we could get deep on that too, man.
Yeah, hell yeah, look forward to that. Thank you everybody again. Thank you Jin, thank you Judith.
I really appreciate you guys coming on to ask the amazing questions. It was a really good time and everybody in the chat that's what's up. I appreciate you all there. I appreciate the comments and the questions. That's why we go live and until the next one, everybody be well later