Sarah Janes Sacrifice Roundtable with Ike Baker, Collin, Peter Mark Adams, Brandon & More

last one as well. So in Agragor, we talked about the nature of these kind of thought form entities that start to control individuals or populations, or direct movements or kind of emanations of cult thinking perhaps I might say, or cults or any kind of cultural phenomenon. And this week I thought, drawing from a lot of the stuff that came up in the Agrogol session, we'll talk about sacrifice because very often the rigora, as we discussed, demands sacrifice.

It requires feeding, it requires energy, it requires our attention. And one thing I'm thinking about a lot with the sort of current headlines and the current news and things that are going on in the world, is it seems as though there's going to be some sort of sacrifice

and what is it that's going to be sacrificed. So in this session, I wanted to talk about the nature of sacrifice in magical practice, in spiritual practice, and also the nature of sacrifice as a kind of scapegoat and proxy, which is something that has been part of magical practice and rituals for.

that relates to mithraic practice. So, Peter, are you up for starting the ball rolling?

personally I see that as a larger teleological evolution. And of course there's countervailing forces at work, which we're seeing these days in a very pronounced form, and that's a very different style of agrigor, as you were pointing out. So it's not the direction in which I personally wish to focus, but I have to recognize that it's a kind of overwhelmingly negative force on the countervailing force. Let's say it's counter initiatory, and it has its own sacrificial forms.

So from my perspective, we're dealing with this duality. And I'm not trying to suggest a kind of larger good versus evil duality, but one is definitely evolutionary and one seems to be counter evolutionary, let's put it that way. So that's what happens to open discussion.

So that the ball isn't actually sacrificed. In the mithraicteroptomy, it's stabbed in the shoulder, that's to say, it's weakened in the classical way in which a bullfight proceeds through a weakening of the bull, and therefore it can just as easily be read as a weakening of primordial instincts to allow higher forms of consciousness to emerge and to

take an ascendant role in your life. And again that is very much tied to this notion of service, where the lower aspects of the self are sacrificed to an extent, although willingly, willingly given up because you're pursuing a much much deeper and larger current.

of the Golden Dawn. You know, a lot of people aren't fully aware because they don't get they don't get into the depths the profundity of the inner order. But it's it's based on service and self sacrifice, and really not in this kind of smug, self important way, but in in various ways that are focused through ritual and the way that I've and and of course right in

your life you're wicked day living. But the way that I've come to understand it is that, well, if we're going to talk about sacrifice, I guess this is kind of my niche here is kind of parsing words neurotically like I do, like you know, alphabetizing my bookshelves and things of this nature. But we should talk about different the different kinds of sacrifice. We should clarify terms there to kind of get to the heart of what's at stake.

For me, it's it's sacrificed. Very much is based on a duality, as Peter said, particularly the duality of free will and determinism. We sacrifice things all of the time. I sacrifice time for money, money for leisure. Is that all saying you cannot have your cake and eat it too. And even though this might not be sacrificed in its most grandiose aspects, it certainly applies when we're thinking about eggrigors. For me, it comes down to choosing what and how

you sacrifice. And there are various types of sacrifice, right, we have material sacrifices that the ancient Hellenistic and Greco Roman theorists, even even in cultic basic cultic practices, they would sacrifice stones, they would sacrifice food, they would sacrifice

all sorts of things. They would sacrifice animals. Even then, when you look at somebody like again to bring them up the Amblicus or let's say Proclus, some of the later Neo Platonic or late Platonic philosophers that were theurgically oriented, they were not necessarily concerned with placating anything they were concerned with. As the Amblicus Proclus essentially distilled it, sacrifice not for the gods, sacrifices for us. It's for us in order that we become accustomed to seeing the divine

in everything around us. So you know, you can sacrifice also your as I kind of mentioned, you can sacrifice your consciousness. In ancient theurgic or hermetic terms, this would have been a sort of noedic contemplation, offering that up to a higher forces, deities, spiritual entities, but also in things like just your time and attention. We don't realize it. You know, everything out here is clamoring for your time and attention, and some of it is worthy and some of it is absolutely not.

to each other. But I will definitely say, just to bring it full full circle, that that that keystone of free will and and and conscious selection of what you're going to sacrifice is tied deeply into what Peter said, sacrifice willingly given, willingly given, And it can happen on a very very mundane level, it can happen on a very very rarefied and spiritual level.

is somehow destroid So Peter touches on this right. So the question is is it your lower self that's being sacrificed for higher purpose or you know? And is it a willing sacrifice or not? And if looking at this from like a historical developing perspective, like developmental perspective, I really like Boudrea's four faces of the image that he writes about in his book on Similar Simulation. I think

that's very important to think about. So in a culture, for example, where kind of in the ancient mystery cults, the reflection of image is a reflection of profound reality. It's a pure presence, right, It's actually there the thing. It's not a symbol of something, It is the thing it symbolizes. It has a presence to it. And I think sacrifice ritually enacted in that kind of environment and that kind of framework of thinking is quite different from

what you see in the later developments. So the second kind of definition that he has for it is that it kind of masks something, right, So the masking of mysterious reality or mysterious presence kind of increases as we go through the levels of history. Currently, we are very much in a in a situation where everything in society is mimicry. That you know, It's not that we don't

live in this perception. I mean some of the people here probably do, because you do ritual and you're esotericist, right, But in kind of secular society, we are operating in this kind of perspective of simulacra, right, or similar simulacrum, which means that the sacrifice is no longer happened in these kinds of ritual or elevated contexts, but they happen through let's say, unwilling sacrifice of human beings to corporations

for example, that sort of thing. So yeah, I think it's I think it's important to kind of distinguish that. So the way that the ancients might have understood this is really not quite what's happening in our own culture to a large extent, Right. I also want to point to, like there's a as an interesting book by Volney called The Ruins of Empires, which came out in seventeen ninety two, right, just like right around the time of the French Revolution, and he talks about this is kind of touching on

Peter's earlier point of how this operates. Right, that and the ancient mystery mystery is then right are turned into moral systems and transformed, and you end up with a with a kind of notion of sacrificial rights that are warped and kind of you know, turned into their exact opposite.

It's not a soulth sacrifice of service anymore. It's an enforced sacrifice of giving up your time and yourself to working for somebody who doesn't care about you or you know, who does give you any yeah, a proper return for your services, you know. So I think it's I think it's interesting to look at that development.

two things. Basically, one is called purification and the other is accumulation of merit. I'm sure in the Western tradition there's some sort of equivalent to it, but essentially there's some shedding that needs to happen, which is done on a voluntary basis, like one takes a pilgrim's mindset to volunteer to let go of something. On the most rudimentary level, of course, it's time and money and time away from family.

But then really the purification has to do with karma, the accumulation of all kinds of negative tendencies and imprints on the mindstream. And so the idea of going on a sacred journey is not just necessarily to make it to the final destination, but along the way, how one engages in just the arisings of consequences and impasses and flight delays. And I mean, imagine if you are right now in Dubai or somewhere, and you know, the difference between a tour is stranded in Dubai and a pilgrim

stranded in Dubai is quite different. That condition or circumstance for the well trained would be a ripe initiatory opportunity for shedding of selfishness or greed or pride or jealousy or whatever the rub might be. And of course while things are being shed, then there's also the opportunities along the way, not just at the destination of the power places, but along the way with other pilgrims without their like

minded people to to cultivate virtues. So if anyone's traveled on the Camino, for example, I mean the good cheer that is spread liberally across the road, you know, is really, you know, archetypally exactly where our civilization should be heading. You know, people of different orientations, people of different temperaments, people of their own unique predilections, still share something in common, which is gratitude and humility and respect. And so there's

there's that kind of lubrication along the road. To go back to Gesha Tens and Zopa, there was a moment we were in Koyasan, which is the tantric enclave of Japan, and we had several nuns with us in addition to just a coord of mostly Western pilgrims. And then one of our nuns, you know, had a knee issue, and so we had asked for a chair in this Shikubo a guesthouse, temple guesthouse. Gesha Tens and Zoe but was

with us. I was the cure organizer, So I was, you know, busying myself trying to you know, find solutions for people. The whole time, it's just you know, like, so somebody she needed a chair, and it seemed like such a modest request. You know, she couldn't sit on the floor to eat her meal. So I was looking for a chair. We asked for a chair, and there was probably one of the managers was quite blunt and

said no, you know, which caught everybody off guard. And so right there in that moment, what arises in your mindstream is is the kind of thing, you know, if it's a negative, if it's a negative reaction, then it's the kind of thing that alerts to your consciousness. This is something to be purified. It could be you know, concern, it could be anger, could be outraged, it could be indignation or whatever it is, or just you know, you know,

some sort of resentment or whatever. Not understanding the culture and not understanding you know. Anyway, the nun and I are looked at each other, you know, we were like, what's going on here? But Gesha, Tens and Zopa turned it into a wonderful teaching moment. You know, he's you know, in the middle of it. He basically stopped everybody and said, listen,

you know, he's right. There's something so valuable from the No, when we need something for us to look at, we need we need to hear that, we need to hear more knows, especially in our culture, which is instant, instant gratification and entitlement and all of this. So it's where the rub the rub the rubber meets the road. That's where Gesha tens and Zoba was saying, no, No, that's where you're This is our teacher. He was basically saying, this is a tradition in Tibet called lo jung the

mind transformation. It's taking the adversity and turning it on its own head and showing you, you know, in the mirror where the work can be, where the work can be applied. But then he did this other remarkable thing. And I don't hope I'm not taking too much time in boring you, but it'll always stay with me. He said, who's moving? Actually, he said, you know, don't Don't you think I want to be comfortable too? Don't you think I want to be stress free and have a fun life.

Don't you think I want to live in a comfortable high bed? He and I never I've been with him twenty years. He never said this either, said, don't you think I want a family and kids, so I want all of that, but none of that is conducive to my higher aspiration. And this is what is regarded in our tradition as the great Bodhisatfa resolved the altruists, the awakened altruists who seeks to benefit others using their embodiment

and whatever challenges arise. And so what he is at the very end was I'm up to my neck in responsibility. He grabbed his story like that, he said, but I'm only looking for more. I'm only looking for more. I don't know where that lands for people, or even in the right track here, but you know, when you asked me to come on, I thought the first thought I thought of about sacrifice with some image of like a goat on an altar in Greece or something. I don't

know why that, but here it is. Here's the image that you know. Maybe you can speak to it, any of you. What the hell am I talking about? How do I make this departure? What relevance does this story have?

But there are a number of counterpoints and examples in history that the kind of imply the need for the self sacrifice and kind of the virtuous behavior at the earliest stage. One early example of this is the book Book of Isaiah, right where God is condemning the Israelites for having so much blood on their hands, but for

not having a corresponding virtue expressed in their behavior. And then you get, you know, we could jump to Apollonius of Tyana, who's who's looking at these characters approach the temple and they're throwing gold, and they're throwing animals, and you know, they're they're wealthy, and they're throwing is all these things at the altar and they're thinking that you know this, this is clearly a projection of their ego in the sacrifice they're not really sacrificing anything that's that's

actually has that emotional kind of connection to them. And he kind of he, you know, he corrects this and and he encourages this verbal or sacrifice of intelligence and gratitude, and it brings it back to this internal kind of behavioral approach, which is also implied in the sort of Book of Isaiah that you need that corresponding behavior or else these rituals are just the you know, these kind

of meaningless, meaningless rituals without any correspondence. And you know in across the corpus her medicum in a f you places, when they talk about sacrifice, it is it is explicitly in this kind of verbal in the in the manner of how you pray and you know what you're giving gratitude for and you're sacrificing the twelve avenging diamonds, which are which are these sinful behaviors. So uh, those are some early examples of of sacrifice you know, connected with

self transformation. And that's like that strikes me as very applicable to our modern predicament, you know, especially with our instant gratification society and so and so on. We should get clear about you know, what we are sacrificing and and why. And I think in everyone's life, you're going to reach this the kind of the dark night of the soul moment where you get this choice and the choices.

You know, do I want to sacrifice these these darker aspects and these greedier aspects of my ego that they make me feel good and they provide this kind of short term you know, rushes of dopamine and so forth. Do I want to sacrifice those things for this higher calling and this higher purpose? And right there is the kind of conversation that I think is very applicable to our modern predicament.

the essence, to get to the spirit of something. And I wonder whether very ancient people, because we can't really say how long this idea of sacrifice has been gone on for But if you look at ritual centers in Anatolia, for example, certainly some sort of practices were occurring there perhaps something that we could compare to sort of later ideas of sacrifice. But I wonder whether it was something

that was noticed in the natural world. I think, you know, we're just the vernal equinox now, and it does seem as though the world goes through this process of death, sacrifice, destruction, and then rises again in the spring to be this

pure new life. So maybe it was something that people saw mirrored in the natural world, that the world goes through this process of offering up in abundance and then being sacrificed, dying, returning to the earth, and then being reborn in the springtime as well, because you know, a lot of you have mentioned the mystery cults, and that tends.

and sacrificing it to the gods. And I like to try to understand that through somebody who has changed my life, Joseph Campbell, right, and the Mono myth and the hero's journey, And I think it's important that we understand that what these symbolic references actually do for our own psychological transformation is that when we're adhering to and accepting the call to adventure, we're actually sacrificing the old self for something new.

And then once we go out into that adventure, we are actually sacrifices at the very underpinning of everything the individual does along the journey. And so you do have that initial call to adventure sacrifice, but then you also have the great supreme ordeal, as Joseph Campbell called it, and that is once you're in the belly of the beast, you must make the grandest of sacrifices to obtain the holy supplical, you know, the Philosopher's Stone, the Holy Grail

or whatever that is. And then once you have that, you have to steal make more sacrifices because the actual, the hero's journey, the call to adventure, these things are never done. You also, then upon the departure, when you go home, you make that sacrifice one last time. You must sacrifice everything that then you've become, to give that Philosopher's Stone or that Holy Grail away to then the

village that you once left, which is really important. So I think, especially in mono myth, like Joseph Campbell Way, we always forget that the sacrifice is happening throughout the whole thing, and then to bring it to kind of my specialty and my nerddom is that one of the greatest canons of alchemical literature is actually something called Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood and it's one of my favorite anime of all time, and the very underpinning of that show

is actually the laws of equivalent exchange, which speak of to obtain something something of equal value must be lost, and I think that we are doing that.

actually always sacrificing to some greater idea. And so upon this journey and this call to adventure, we must understand that we are going to become conscious agents so we can become initiates, or so we can be ones who are actually heroes on the journey, so we understand what we are actually sacrificing, so we can then transmute that and then gain that thing that we can then bring back to the world because it's not enough just to

do it for ourselves. But I think kind of what Miles was talking about is that body sought for nature, is that we're trying to each individual, especially on this panel, as we are all you know, esotericis or magicians or whatever it is philosophers, we must understand that the greatest sacrifice is the self for the higher self or the

greater self. And then once we do that, we can go back to our family and our small cities and our towns, thus giving whatever that holy grail is to ours that we've gained on the journey to the rest of our people. So that's kind of my little take

on what is it that we're sacrificing. Well, you know, we can make that decision every time we leave our small little circles and go out in the world, and then we can become that agent of agent of light or to or we can understand that truth can then disclose itself to us and we can then become change.

the gods. So thinking about sacrifices, this kind of magical act of sharing and binding with the creators of the world, with these divine entities.

talked about within the idea of sacrifice. And so yes, definitely in terms of what we might call like astrological practices, I think that there is a thing to talk about in there, but to tie it back to something that you were saying earlier about what is it that we may be seeing in the world that we then relate to this And that led me first to the ideas that arise from within Vedic traditions, which is the idea

that the sun is cooking the world. And you know, this is an idea that comes from an anthropologist named Malamud who is studying Vedic ritual and the practice of fire offerings that were made and where animals substances or plant substances are burned in a puja, and some interesting things come up around that, and that, you know, the the thing that is really being thought about is this idea of cooking the world and participating in its cooking is like a way that it's like the right way

to bring both like an internal and an external sort of aspect to what's going on. So ultimately, within those traditions, the brahman who is doing the puja is the actual sacrifice. They are the sacrifice themselves, and it's through substitution based on ideas around what animals or plants may be appropriate to represent the transformation that they are actually enlictiting within

themselves that goes on there. And I don't know like how relevant that is, but I think that equally, like it's hard for me not to think about what might be the case of what we may define as sacrifice within and like these contexts that later become through like different tantric and Patashanic traditions become more about all internalized.

So the body is the site of the sacrifice, the breath is the agent of what is sacrificed, and the mind or transformation to the mind or contemplation become like the thing that is ultimately involved in all of that. So there's not a a there's really the sacrifice of the self or like aspects of the self that are involved in that. Or you could have within Buddhist tantric

stuff like Miles would be more familiar with. You know, there's wrong perceptions that you're trying to annihilate by sacrificing the some version of a misunderstanding of self is existent, and in that way, you know, you're actually visualizing chopping your own body up offering in a cup to like

the deities or the Buddhists that you work with. So in all these you see like how at least within those you're all seeing how the self of the purse, of the person who's offering the sacrifice, some aspect of them is like bound up in the actual process of what is going on. You know, there's not like a

separateness from it. And the last two that I would maybe bring in and then I'll be quiet about it for a little while and then eventually answer your question about the astromagic part is that withinanimous systems usually is about relationships, and so if you kill, killing will always maybe has the potential to disrupt spiritual and also social broader social connections that we view it as like relational.

So in this way, ritual is usually utilized to maintain reciprocity and dynamics within within a broader understanding of the group. And so for me like trying to move away from certain things that might be more obvious with an astromagic where ultimately you could take examples from the PGM or from the picka tricks where we have the idea that how we engage in it, be it animal, plant, or mineral.

It's usually combined with the timing. So if it is like a solar related thing, there's often like either the sun is in strong a strong way in an astrological sense, or we're aligning it with a solar an important solar

moment like dawn and the sacrifice. Animals are burn because they have a quality that relates to the cosmic force, and a lot of times through those there's either a thought that you're either aligning with like a natural connection, you know, so you're utilizing all this do that if you're making talentsmans or insult statues or whatever you might think of it, whatever tradition, it's usually utilizing of the animals components which are either released to I guess bring

forward the cosmic essence if you will, because there probably are speaking about an idea of the sacrificing, the burning or the killing of the animal as being is a way of releasing that essence. And then it could be to again elevate you to the place of the gods or where we want to think about that or the gods in the world is being reat rated, like I mentioned, or it could be also about trying to bring that into a more material form that is now held or

within a talisman or statue, you know. So it's like a sense of alignment that is going on there. But I think that, you know, this is something that anyone who's engaged, and I'm not a reconstructionist, so I don't like obsess over trying to figure out exactly what was done before so that I can repeat it perfectly as

it should be done. But I think that any time I've ever been engaged and the practices that I am involved with, with making talismans or with various things that could be thought of as theurgical, you know, a lot of these the messiness of these thoughts sort of sit within my understanding about it, and it's kind of evolving.

But the last thing that I kind of wanted to say and then I will be quiet, that brings it back to what you were saying, is that I think the way that sacrifice inhabits like a contemporary Western imagination is an important thing for us to sit with within a conversation because we generally think about human sacrifice and

we think about blood. You know, and these things have a rich history within Christianity that I think are quite important and the way that Christianity has a lasting influence within our social and our imagination social life and imagination. But equally, I think that it sits within that idea. And I don't know if this is the right way to say it, but I think, like a lot of people, when they're imagining it, they're imagining like a releasing of

some kind of bound up libidinal force. That is, like we enter some very strange state of primal something when we would kill another human and offer their blood, you know. So in this way, what is released really from that kind of aligned to the idea of something as being released when it's happening. But then why it is happening and what transformation is it meant to elicit or what

relationship is it like recreating? I think is up for a question in the moment, which maybe is more relevant to the focus of why you wanted to bring it up. So anyway, that was enough, I've said too much.

that's where I'm going to be coming from. But there's a mundane sacrifice in this system, or an acknowledgment of mundane sacrifices, and then there is a gesturing toward and eventually a revealing, a revelation of a greater sacrifice, what we might call a spiritual sacrifice to use a kind of cliche and generic and hazy term, but an example of mundane sacrifice not you know, Okay, moving on from sacrificing time, sacrificing money, sacrificing energy, there are sacrifice vice

is that need to be made. In other words, we sacrifice the innocence and the leisure of childhood for the changes in anatomy and position within family, within society that puberty brings about, and then eventually into adulthood. That's a sacrifice that has to be made. If you're not willing to make that sacrifice. Vice in all of its ways

is going to be painful for you. Now that change itself is painful regardless, right, I mean, most of us I think here can recall our those that change and like, eh, you know, like I wouldn't want to go back for any amount of money. But there is a prolonged pain that is fighting nature. And so in the Golden Dawn, when you're first initiated, you're called a neo phicitos neophyte. That means obviously many people here speak you understand this

language newly planted. What is being implied specifically in the Golden Dawn through this is that like a seed, you have something in you. You have an oak tree, you have a maple tree, but that thing cannot take root and grow until you die. You you, the seed must become something completely different in order to fulfill what it was meant to do.

they think that they're going for their greatest good. But our chi our greatest good, and at least according to the Platonic philosophy, and I agree with this, would be our eros eros. It's not in terms of physical erotic love, but more so the desire that our soul has for reunion. That reunion isn't just you kind of you know, ascending into the stratosphere and dissolving, you know, becoming one with

the cosmos. In a more practical sense, it's grounding in the material reality and recognizing everything around you as divine, and nothing here is more or less important than you particularly less nothing here is less important or or yeah, less important than than you are. You know, everything is kind of has that equal amount of of divinity in it,

but each of us has a different chi. And I would orient strongly that this, this sacrifice is in order to it is something that has to happen in order for us to evolve into our greatest good, into our highest errors. And in the Golden Dawn we say, when you take your obligation, you say, from this day forward, I die to the old life and am reborn to

the new. And you vow to expend every possible energy, effort resource in the pursuit of being elevated and rising by divine aid to union with your higher divine genius, which is the personal diamond, the familiar, the personal diamond is the is the higher genius of the Golden Dawn tradition. And we say, in doing so, to become more than human. But uh, in my experiences, it's not necessarily to become in viewed with angelic or or godly powers. It's to

become more than just human. So in other words, to wrap put a big bow on this For me, the experience, at least of where I am in this process is to be led to have guidance that is higher than just what you want in that immediate moment, or even even you sitting there with pen and pencil trying to draw out this equation and say, oh, you know, well, if I do it this way and do it that way, it'll work and it'll be for the greatest good and a lot of times right as we say, man plans

and the God's laugh.

It's like an emptying or a removal of the sort of daily consciousness and just an eradicated of the self in order to transform. So it's this zero point or this empty body, which is the sacrifice itself through dance and the transformations the transformation of the body of the self of movement, but on a spiritual level as well,

is driven by sacrifice. But this kind of sacrifice dance and movement is sacrifice and breath and intention And so I was, yes, like time, attention, all of these things are sacrifice, but I was thinking about intentionality as well, that we're when I'm dancing, there's a sort of a breath, a greater breath with the cosmos, in which there is

an exchange continually like a cycling. It's sort of like alchemically charges up the energy so that more change is driven, more transformation can take place, and it's in this sort of reciprocal relationship with what's outside through the breath and

through movement. But I also thought that we are also participating, Like not every time that we lose our attention or we give our time, are we making sacrifice, because so often we're participating as sacrificed as just giving our potential or giving up time and not being consciously like doing that, but it just being this lowering of attention and consciousness, or just to consider the idea of participating in the world as we are, that we are living now in

other people's sacrifices, knowingly or unknowingly, and how one deals with how one psychologically but also emotionally recognize as one's participation in like the whole world of sacrifice, this turning through lives being's death. Yeah, I don't know if that made a lot of sense. It's it really is. Within Bhuttos, sacrifice is the thing which drives transformation and drives spiritual transformation. So dance is the thing which allows us to become

more than human or other than human. That's really the thing I wanted that I had been thinking about this, yeah, rather than the sort of kind of cliched ideas of sacrifice. That's one aspect of which sacrifice is central to what I do.

about the offering of the self to the beloved. So the ideas that I have around sacrifice come out of my own personal work, which is very often and offering work of blood and fluids Jesus is like the typical Western tantric approach to things. And I was hoping we were going to have Judio here as well, because one of the things that's missing in the West is an

offering of animals in sacrifice. Most of the time, as Western practitioners, what we're doing is we're talking about giving ourselves up to the higher self, or sacrificing ourselves as the self the beloved, rather than rather than sacrificing something to a spirit as part of a transactional relationship. So I just wanted to say that there are a few things to think about with this blood sacrifice, and one

of them. One of them is very much what we know about which everyone has two wolves and which wolf do you feed? And there's always a risk when you're engaged in a practice of sacrifice that you're entering into a pact or an arrangement with spirit, and in doing so, it's quite easy to be pulled out of shape by that and by the demands of the spirits you're working with. So there's also a negotiation with sacrifice. There's a there's a need to both have boundaries and also to push

one's boundaries. And it's that that difficult process which often goes wrong for Western practitioners, largely because they're working as lone individuals rather than in the temple setting. For example that IC has with a Golden Dawn group that seems

to be a rarity rather than the rule. The rule tends to be alone individuals making terrible mistakes so that the path of sacrifice can very often lead to people living disordered, dysfunctional, chaotic lives and thinking that they're engaged in the process of sacrifice when they're in fact simply engaged in the process of failing disastrously at life. So that's the blood part of it. The second aspect that

I wanted to mention was fire. So fire is a very important part of the sacrificial process that I work with. We see this classically with the example of Jack Parsons. When Jack went through the Babylon working, he spent a lot of time passing things through the fire to the goddess.

So he was putting things that were important to him into the other world, very much giving up things that he didn't want to give up, which was interesting to me because some of my some of my earliest magical work involved burning objects that I didn't wish to pass through the fire. So there's there's a need to give up something that that is difficult for oneself. And again with with blood offering, I'm I'm pretty hemophobic. So when I when I make a blood offering, it's not something

that that I wish to do. It's something that my body rebels against me doing so. In order to do so, I'm extending my control over myself. And again, something we do with books very often, when we've finished a book, we will we will pass a copy of the book through the fire into the other world. So we're literally, we're literally going through that boundary and using fire to pass through into the other world for there. And then the final thing I wanted to talk about was flowers.

So I've been reading a lot of H. Lawrence at the moment, so everything in my head is a bit d Lawrency. So we were up on the moors for the equinox the other day, and there are a lot of very old stone teams up there, and so we went to make sacrifice with the spring equinox. And the sacrifice that I made for the spring equinox was a single wild violet and an offering of water to the dead to communicate and talk to them about spring coming back to the land and to spend some time in

their world. And this is the other thing with sacrifice in that this I'm very careful about what I take and what I offer and where it comes from. This is a very remote site and I found a bank of wild violets, and I took a single one of these tiny flowers as not a sacrifice. And the question is whether is this my sacrifice to the dead or is this the violet sacrifice to the dead.

we're doing when we're engaged in the process. And I hope that's that's some help people.

the unwanted aspects of self. Say, for example, in magical medical practice, you transfer an illnessness onto a goat and then you slaughter the goat, or you set the goat out to row and free and you just send it off. So wonderful points. Thank you both of you so much. Anyone else I.

the potential is lower. So when you bring this into phenomenology of experiences and looking to sacrifice from that sense, the way that I have been studying it, it's actually coming from mass diasnal or basically the tradition of Zarathustra, which is type of an Indo Iranian kind of like after the Indo Iranian split into the land of Iran and Uh and India. So the way that that Gothas

which is the is related to Zarathustra, defines Zarathustra. It defines Zarathustra as a zota, which is a fully officiated priest of his time and as like or zotra. This this word which is an ancient old eveston ward, it actually means offering. So the priest or like when as a fully ordained priest, when they wanted to have this exchange like this libation or offering, the offering was done to the source of of the elements like that contribute

to our vital forces and life. So one part of the zout zota was participating in this ceremony called the Asna. And in Yasna they are having these offerings to the to fire, to water, to other elements.

no to continue and perpetually like serve human. And when they want to do the offering to water, the offering to water actually comes from sacrificing this ancient plant which actually is known as equivalent of soma, which is Homer that they are actually pressing that like that's pressing is counted as an act of sacrifice of this plant that carries wisdom, and then they mix it with another plant and then they put milk on it, and then a part of it is actually being taken, which is a

psychoactive compound is being taken by the priest like the pully ordered priest, and the other part is actually being given back to the waters. That they call it aubonne for the return of the vital forces to waters. So in that sense, they see sacrifice as an exchange between the human order more I think in a primordial term, which is more like connected to what is more aligned to the unconscious side of our consciousness, and then it's

like an exchange with a higher order. For the cosmic it's basically with the cosmos for an exchange that actually put everything on order. And if you thermodynamically look into it, like the order is aligned with anything that lowers entropy

and the disorder or chaos with the higher entropy. And I think this is the distinction that actually comes to the duality of Zarathustra, that he has distinction for how to contribute to something that actually brings back order in a cosmological way and then what actually brings disorderliness or chaos on the other side, which in Zarathustra's concept, I think this is more like a psycho spiritual framework that's partly related to spirituality too, which order is actually what

has to because order actually has to be a hurrik, which is something that actually comes from goodness. And then on the other side there's divas in in zo Astronism or even in Hinduism that there are kind of like the negative gods or the bad gods. So the distinction is actually between the two because you can sacrifice to any of them, so to the goodness or to the other side. So my work has been mostly on Homa and the ceremony of Homa, but the connection of sacrifice in Homa ceremony in they.

at in relation to that. And I also wanted to take it back to the question that you asked some time ago, Sarah, when you talked about you can feel that something is going to be sacrificed and you wonder what it's going to be. Right, something is definitely changing in the world around us, some kind of something, some rebalancing is happening. I mean, you can really definitely see that if you don't only have to open the news

to understand that something is going to happen. If something is being sacrificed and something is kind of like on the on the offering table in order to rebalance and what that's going to be, I'm not entirely sure, but

that the shift is definitely there. And I also think that I just want to ask the question to the group, like, how do you guys see this move from from the individual expense of ritual practice and sacrifice within your own sphere and like and this more kind of collective, what's happening in humanity, what's happening in like your country, the place where you're at, like or in the larger kind of global community in terms of how this functions not

necessarily through our participation, but just as a fort just as a force of of of the cosmos, right, it demands its own sacrifices, like when things go out of wack, you kind of it will claim something the same as a as a as a pack of gazelles will hunt a zebra, and the minute, the minute the zebras is felled and eaten, all the others ever stopped running because now that the sacrifice has been made and that they

can come back to order. And so I wonder if anyone has any thought about this duality of the individual versus the collective.

of chaotic hybrid force. And I think that that's what so much magic is about, is about working out the language of nature, the pattern of nature, so that you can understand the order and read it.

my head that's what I'm doing. But you know, we're talking about sacrifice, and I think there's many levels of that, like even like I and other people who are saying with, you know, giving up certain things, you know, time, money,

bad habits, certain behaviors, frames of ways of thinking. But you know, we kind of mentioned something about a great sacrifice or the ultimate sacrifice, and not too I do take it in a dark area or to try to sound edgy, But due to my own experiences and things that I've looked into myself and research, I do wonder and I wanted to ask other people's opinion if part of sometimes sacrifice literally would be the blood and flesh of your own body, Like if you separating your soul

from your body the ultimate sacrifice, because I am leaving everything else that I am in love with and attached to in this world gone, you know, That's I just wonder sometimes if that is something that is actually maybe possibly directed to or pointed at in the esoteric or the occult, is actually like you know, we're talking about you know, astral stuff before OBEs. You look at shamanism,

they're pushing themselves to the edge of death NDEs. Some people's stories with NDEs could sound very close people's magical experiences. So is there you know, this is the death and the rebirth actually literal? Is that the ultimate sacrifice that some people may make to have an experience other people's don't. I was just wondering if the other people.

the territory, then maybe. But so, I guess one thing I've been thinking before, and touch John especially by showing what he said absolutely loved and then and then what

Nick kind of mentioned with the near death thing. I don't know exactly how to pass it, but but yeah, I mean, so going back to like the etymology of sacrifices, there's there's it's to make sacred, and this idea of a sacrifice of them giving something up that is most valuable to the beyond or something beyond just your yourself, your your your own ego, and thereby making making it sacred.

And and obviously we've spoken a great deal about self sacrifice and how that can lead to service, and even you know, body sat for heard it and so so with that, like around that kind of the self sacrifice and the death of yourself and ego death, I mean,

obviously that's that's something which will be inherited. Two different types of these kind of esoteric practices which I've been talking about, but especially kind like an extremists like a psychedelic experience, and obviously there you know, they that that of itself may have a party playing these magical practices ancient Greek or other mystery cults, et cetera, or shamanic kind of austerities you know, where that can happen in very dramatic ways, or the near death experience as as

Nick brought up, which is you know, which is more

of a kind of explicit death yet near death. So yeah, but you're but so in terms of how that then links to the making of it's sacred, I mean, you know, your very self, your very sense of your own extantness in this reality is being friend or or you're willing for it to be dissolved, which is that then I think allowing for just on a kind of neural level, if we were to mediate it that way and not any reduction this way, But there is a dissolution of like your your the self, the self model and your

world model, and through that there can be you know, one can encounter the kind of is the kind of ground of reality, kind of the noetic revelatory experience and there or just this this ultimate connection to to the universal ward a reappraising of it as as ultimately sacred. So it's a it's a sacralization process where you, you know, one of the original attributes of the mystical experience, you know, is considered this this touching of something which is holy.

But ultimately you're you're just your your discovering yourself and the world that has something intrinsically holy. And again on the kind of neuroscience thing which Chewing was saying, but not specifically in terms of your suces, but about you're talking about from more engineering perspective, but it remind him and of course disorder and orders he was talking about.

and systems theory. So there's a release of of consciousness, but he was relating that parapsychologically to like cite this like principle, so which can be this mediator of precognition or telepicta whatever whatever it is, or or being able to go to some other space. And so yeah, I mean in that sense, it's not just this kind of ritual sacrifices may not necessarily just be thought of as like a symbolic thing, but quite a literally magical thing.

But the neuroscientific aspect of that, the way that I would see it as opposed to his kind of talking about some redistribution of of PSI per se. Linking to what Chavin was saying is is that in li psychedelic neuroscience, for instance, which will be very mapping onto similar processes where there are these self networks like the default mode network for instance, or other higher order networks are being dismantled, you have technically you have this release of so called

free energy. And so that's that's energy which isn't bound up to do something like life conducive. It's so it's being liberated because of course in this in this peak psychedelic state, you know, you're not imminently here, your brain isn't wide any longer in order to do whatever it needs to be doing.

to whom you may sacrifice something. So with sacrifice, you can do it either for the good or for ill in a way, but it doesn't need to be as

kind of literal explicit as that. But there's a whole set and setting thing with psychedelia, for instance, that there will be a yeah, it may implicitly end up as being something good or good or bad in a way in terms of how the sacrifice, how the ego sacrifice, how the the flow of consciousness as it were, will be redistributed, and for better or worse, for you offer for others.

your system down. And it's just to me, it seems a little bit coincidental that there's things being used that is literally starting to slow your system down, and I don't think a lot of people realize it, Like the reverberation and a lot of sacred architecture that I'm recently covering and putting out soon, the way the STI, the

decay time, all these things. When you'll make a tone, it will last eleven seconds, and between that and everything else you're saying, the architecture now it's like starting to actually affect your nervous system and we'll start to put you in certain states. And it's just very weird to me that it seems like a lot of these things

do aid with focus and slowing your system down. So even what he said with that, it is just I wanted to bring up another reason why brought up such maybe a wild idea is because of you looking at that stuff as well.

sort of renewed thing I'm reminded of. I think I might have mentioned it in the last session, my friend Marie and Marigu telling me about someone who went into the Telesterion, who was one of the misty and took part in the mysteries of Alepsis, and how that idea of meeting the gods is a very real thing and seems to involve some sort of out of body experience, some sort of nd where you are obliterated as an individual and you become one with the goddess, with these

divine essences. And it was talked about that he was blind when he went into the telesterion, and you talked about that recalibration, that sort of chaos to organization, that when he came out he could see, and who knows whether that's true, whether it really happened, whether it was a story, But the concept of that I think fits in with this idea of going into you know, Nick mentioned certain plants and the things that we eat or the things that we drink affecting our consciousness, and I

think maybe what we you know, you are what you eat, you are what you drink. If you take certain drugs, then the spirit, the essence of these substances are affecting your psychology. Because we're less we're less autonomous than we think we are. Really we're like colonies of bacteria. There

are so many things that affect our consciousness. We could have toxoplasmagondhi for example, which I think i've probably just got by spending so much time in Istanbul because now I love cats and all these things that affect our consciousness and our idea of our personality.

not be defeated. But at the same time, they haven't been surrendered. So the fact that they know that every one of them would be killed at the end of this like what has happened, you know, from February twenty eighth, you know, with the Supreme Leader I was actually being attacked and died, and and the narrative that's being circulated as the myth between and the sham mentality that these are martyrs, that these are sacrifices for again a change

of order that's going to happen. And I think in the Sham mentality what's happening is that they say that, like the chaos gets to a point and there should be so many martyrdoms and you know, sacrifice, like human sacrifice for the higher goal that that the Messiah come or not the Mahdi mode you know comes, you know,

to get the like disorder back to order. And I think that, like working with psychedelics, my understanding is that this idea of sacrificing the body doesn't necessarily need to happen, like you don't need to destroy your biology to like from a cosmological point of view, to really induce that

exchange with the higher cosmic order. I think that the self, the ego, death, or anything that I think from my experience, anything that contributes to a way of getting into a higher state while we can keep the intention of having the connection to that higher state. I think that's the phenomenology of psychedelic or onerogenic experiences that as long as you can get to that level of exchange between consciousness and unconscious which is kind of like the work of

magic as well. And then you can keep that connection to the higher consciousness that you're processing with intention and in the moment. So this is kind of like any practice of non duality that you can get to that level of sacrifice, you know, through intention and make that

exchange happen, you know, with the higher order. So I think my understanding is that what actually contributes to an exchange, you know, in respect in return for the order in the in the cosmos to happen, is our attention when we can amplify it, not to higher order, you know, that's what happening again with the psychedelic or energenic experiences. But at the end of the day, that's the the intention and attention that you're putting, you know, as an

exchange with the uh uh, with the higher order. Not that comes through you know. Let's say, what what's called sacri sacrifice of the ego or sacrifice of the body.

not intentionally or consciously entering into a covenant with the divine by doing that. But when you're intentionally giving your attention,

it does feel like a completely different thing. Because, you know, one thing I really noticed working in schools is I was talking to a friend earlier about how, you know, we're probably the last generation that grew up without the Internet, without these black mirrors at our disposal, and I developed in that culture of never having anything like that, of being in the world without these tools for navigation, without these tools for constant communication, And now there are all

these kind of stuff showing that children feel terror when they're split from their phones. It's almost like having a damon cut away from them. They're actually scared to be in the world without this tool for communication that you know, and we know that people that run these companies don't let their kids go on them. So I wonder if Brandon and our kisses. We could talk about that a little bit.

will be soon. It's they're still so symbiolartically connected with the smartphone or whatever, the computer, the tablet, and so these transformations are happening anyway without any sort of conscious, meaningful engagement with it. This reciprocity with the cosmos, with the living beings of the cosmos, with the higher spirits, with the like technology this is a smartphones things just

completely flattened and reduce your humanity. It's like something I see that, like what's happening is that we are becoming something else, but that we're not necessarily many of us in control or even trying to consciously become something else. Maybe as like esotericists or magicians of various types, we are more implicated in that process. But when I see ordinary people just being changed by their engagement with technology into like the next iteration, I like getting stupid, getting

less able to hold a thought, or less vocabulary. Everything diminishes because we become so dependent on it. I think that's like, that's kind of what I was one of the things I was thinking about in terms of becoming part of a greater sacrifice that we're not actually intentionally participating in, but we are, you know, being sacrificed for for the next like the tech bros Wants us to become the next thing.

learn about how to have good relationships. I think that it's really important to look at what children are being taught in school, because that's where the agenda is first sort of sown into what kind of people the powers that the want to see in the world, which are just empty consumers who can be easily controlled and manipulated with the amazing skills that advertising and politics and all this kind of have at their disposal these days.

this is what the body does. But as soon as you're like bringing this artificial light and all this hyper stimulation into like your face, is completely disrupting our relationship with the world, with the cosmos, with all beings. And I think that's that's where I see the danger of this sort of like unwittingly being sacrificed for other people's purposes and darker agendas. And yeah, so we have to sort of consciously sort of step back from this to

not participate in that. And again, I just don't know how how you stop other people, you know, plunging into it. You can't, but you have to be like that point of calm.

we are laiden amongst non playable characters. And so it's like, while we're walking in the world, there are NPCs everywhere, which goes to the term that Elkistis was talking about with the transhumanist agenda, that we're completely laden in ourselves upon, with the elite, parasitic techno oligarchs that I like to dean being the dark sorcerers who we are kind of up against in this cosmic Manichean kind of drama that

is unfolding at all times. And so kind of what you're saying, Sarah in your work as well is how important dreams are and why that is is because of that is what connects us to the higher realms. We must cross the thirty second path from Malcouth into Ysad, into the Moon, into the phantasmagoric imaginal realms. And I think what's so important is that the intentional mind, our intentionalities towards the phenomenological experience that we're trying to bring back,

instead of being separated. So what happened was in the Enlightenment period with Cartesianism, is that they separated body and mind. And is fantastic as that was, because we have the whole technological revolution that we're in. What it also did was it then also separated everything that was the embodied experience.

And so what I think is really important is that then what happened is that instead of sacrificing the lower desires, kind of like what Peter talks about in his work is that we, you know, we must sacrifice you know, or you know, maybe just nick the shoulder of the bowl instead of completely sacrificing the bull. But we must have an understanding that we we sit upon the lower desires because we need those to run the robot that goes upon and works and feeds and has a family

and does these things. But through the great work, we are ascending or transcending the normal, profane world to the higher sacred world. Going back to what sacrifice you know seems to mean with the sacrificium of the Latin terminology, and so it's like the phones and the cosmic drama that's unfolding in the world. This can be seen as the grand sacrifice of all of our intention and awareness

and everything that's going on. And it could also be seen because I think what's so important is what I learned from Peter is that what we're trying to do is we're trying to get They're trying to the dark sources, are trying to stick us within the grand dualist dualism, which is then what we're trying to merge back together

with the embodied phenomenological experience. So we're not dark, you know, being taken over by dark sorcerers, and so we can actually have a spirit and a soul instead of being a transhumanist NPC type of character.

for twenty minutes. And so it's like, what does that mean? Well, I must root myself into the earth, while like in my Taichi practice, lift my my bai hua, lift my higher mind into the heavens. Thus, in the Daoist terminology, I become the center of the heaven and the earth.

And I think with these types of conversations and with everyone doing their grand work and retrying to connect us to the dream realm, we can bring people from the unintentional unaware, you know, take away the phones because you're completely right. And what I think we forget is that the blue light is telling us at all times that it's noon out. Not only is it doing that, it brings us to the idea that mk ultra is real, you know, as in is real right.

wars as we learn from orwell war as peace. The wars will continue to go as long as everyone is not doing their own great work, and so I could continue to talk about that, but that's just one of those things that's really fascinating, is that in this transhumanist world which we're moving.

they have no power. So the most important thing we can do is retain our humanity. And one thing I noticed because I spend a lot of time in Istanbor. You know, I've lived part time in Greece and in istan Bor in particular, but everywhere I think, I'm noticing people being nicer to each other.

of select little group of conspiracy theorists. And when the veil falls, when we have this kind of apocalypsis, I think it's going to bring about a renaissance of humanity, and that we'll be kinder and nicer to each other and look each other in the eye and hanging out in person and singing a king art is going to be like a new exciting novel, fun thing to do that everyone wants to do, and everyone's like, oh my god, have you heard of making music properly?

a dozen or so very tall columns of light. Okay, and after a while they kind of drifted off the apron and up through the audience and disappeared so bizarre event. But at the end of this seance, was it, I don't know quite what. Somebody in the audience asked him, you know these hathors that you're talking about, when they manifest, how do they look? And he said, well, the tall columns of light, which is exactly what I saw over there.

But the curious thing now is that nobody I was with saw them, okay, And that led me to ask the questions why should higher order or higher dimensional beings make their presence known to Sam and not to others?

to others. And I think there's something in there that we need to get to the bottom two And perhaps next week when we talk about entities, perhaps that that'll be part of that conversation.

So let's imagine that as above so below are archetypally inside each human consciousness or psyche. There is this push towards death and rebirth, whether we're conscious of it or not. And so everybody on the line has their own practice and in their own way is working with that archetype. I mean, working consciously with trying to voluntarily surrender something and break through into a more expansive or more compassionate

or higher order. We've used the word order and chaos, We've used compassion and retraction, you know, whatever the dichotomy might be. But it seems to me that broadly speaking, you know, most of the planet is still very much asleep, and so then the impulse that is being activated because of the cosmological sea change may may cause people to have a death wish in the most rudinventtory way, just

the most force way, most dense way. I'm thinking you use the word apocalypsis, and you know that's files or is a kind of apocalypsis, like just how rampant some of the most primitive evil seditious, sadistic, and how rife and widespread this kind of death wish and this sort of instinctual you know, death wish is. So you know, and I can't remember who it was it made. It might have been Nick, who was very much just put

they put it out there. It seemed that at the time has kind of left field, like you know, making an actual sacrifice. Maybe maybe that's what's happening, is that there is an actual sacrifice happening in the in the world, but it's just so unconscious. And so there were a couple of examples of this, and one of them was in Iran with the sort of martyrdom as one example. The sacrifice of actual children in these sort of Epstein cults sort of is another. The more widespread one of

sacrificing our kids. Attention to the devices is another. And this is in stark contrast to all these mystical traditions that are suggesting how to work with that impulse in a more symbolic way. So you have this juxtaposition between a symbolic processing voluntary death. You have all that impulse versus the one that is happening or being born out

in the most unconscious and destructive way. So I wanted to just throw that out there to see if people have any thoughts about that, to kind of conclude or to wrap up.

progress to occur. So it's like the darkest, weirdest moment is also the moment where and some use this as a justification for why tantent practice is so powerful now because it's the time where transformation of our attachments or the way that we engage with the material world, having strayed so far from it, it's important, you know, like a holy material if you will discovering these things now

will have like the broadest and most powerful impact. And I think it's interesting because we circled around lots of different ideas, some which are why sacrifice would maybe be something that we're considering within our various works that we are doing. So like there was a lot of attention like Peter gave. Peter Gray gave the example of how aware he was whenever he was offering the wild Violet and the various ongoings that it's kind of wrapped up inside of. So I think for me, at least, like

if there's a practice in which we're engaged. And it's why I would say it may seem like a cop out, but it's like, if we are engaged in either overt or subtle or symbolic or literal sacrifice, that there's something that's pushing us towards right relation, you know. So whatever that might mean for us, how we framed and orders or chaos and or higher realms, lower realms, whatever, you know, I think it's about putting things better into right relation.

And it seemed like the other one is something I've had a conversation with some people here about is the way that our erotic our eros is really hijacked by a lot of the things that draw our attention these moments, you know, so be that like the media cycle, or our engagement with dating apps or whatever it might be, you know, gaming on your phone or whatever it could be. I do think this is a level to which we are being kind of forced into scenarios where we're sacrificing

our eras over to something else where. It would be much better to put it in a place that I think cultivates right relation, like creative capacity and bringing forward something that is generative and reminds us of how we're you know, what is possible rather than being caught and all that. So, yeah, it was an interesting conversation. I was lovely to hear everybody starts and see where it all went.

spirit and the afterlife is so appealing. And then on the other side you got tech bros who are utterly, utterly terrified of dying and are trying to live forever and are injecting fecal matter, and every single moment of their day is spent in some you know, breathing tube or taking a thousand supplements every morning, you know, like the terror of death and the complete desire to die are seemed to be like battling it out right.

and it did help with that. However, that is something that is going on where they are trying to stop themselves from dying, and I think it is because of this level of being afraid of karma, and as Joseph Campbell's states, they're also they've mistaken the symbol for the little representation of what the symbol represents, and so this level of immortality has been this kind of Faustian bargain that we've we have as a collective, have mistaken the menu for the meal or the map for the territory.

of like a transcendent experience and magic being everywhere all at once. And I will state also how that idea of taking control of your intentional awareness, I think is why we are all trying to have people understand that magic and the embodied practice are what help fine tune the nervous system so we can tap into the parasympathetic from the sympathetic nervous system and calm the limbic structures. Which is kind of what Nick was saying with the herbs,

you know, talking about sound and all these things. Is that like when the more I meditate, the more I do kung fu, and the more I read classical literature and have my own ritual practice and intentional with my with my girlfriend, all of a sudden, everything I'm you know, as we all are trying to be creators and trying to get our.

We can then become our own uber manches, which is then why that embodied practice is so important, because things like an autoimmune disease are also the symptoms of everything we're talking about.

so will the state. And if the state continues to be sick, so will the individual. So it always go back to everything. And I'm saying, whatever kung fu is for you, guys, I keep telling everybody in my audience and every moment I can get it's do magic and train kung fu.

we are sacrificing presents for appearance all the time. That's

what's happening. And if if we instead try to start sacrificing appearance the appearance of things for real presence and come into real experience, Like so many people have talked about the notion of embodiment of presence, you're through ritual, through meditation, so many of the of the keys to how this is going to happen for humanity, I think is through that the with and the lineages that have been preserved only an esoteric practices, only on the fringes

really of things, because it's the rejected knowledge, it's the rejected traditions that are actually going to help us come back to that presence and that you know, there've been the wisdom keepers of what we need now in order to kind of revivify society. So yeah, I think that's kind of the central pillar presence.