Revival of Runes with Stephen Flowers

nosed philology and lived at magical practice. Is one of his latest titles, The Revival of the Rooms unfurls a five hundred year saga of how scholars, missed, nationalists, and yes, even Nazis, have reimagined the Germanic runs.

in part three and of course the Great Lodge. So if you're interested in our speculative gnostic series, of which Solo is absolutely an integral part of, please join us on Fridays on X Live.

I just thought that was an extra cool kind of synchronicity because he has brought so many people, like uncountably many people either directly or indirectly through his work, you know, to those outer gates. So it's really something cool. Happy to be here.

about the left hand path. But everything that I do comes from a central idea and a central message and concept, and that is the idea of Aruna of the mystery uh and my motto as it were, is ran tilleruna, which means seek the mystery, seek in the direction of the mysteries, and of course that's what the ruins are. That's what the word roun means is secret or mystery. So everything that I do comes from that center of gravity.

And so it's really all just one big work with a lot of different appearances, and so many of my mentors, people like Edgar Polme who's one of the great Indo Europeanists of his generation. Uh was an expert and I'm no no one likes him. I don't claim to be, but he was a expert, for example, in not only into European things, but African ban two languages and things

like that. He was a Belgian, spent some time in the Congo before it got kicked out in the nineteen sixty But so that kind of breadth of interest is something that inspired me from the academic world that I spent so many years in. And so that explains why there are so many things and appearances teaching people who taught me and showed me the way, as well as this idea of mystery, which is universal found everywhere in every culture, except in so far as this odentic paradigm.

This odentic archetype makes this concept and this thing the central focus of this archetypal task. So it is most fitting to have most illustrative of this quest to look at things through this lens of the odentic archetype. And mentioning my mentor Edgar Paula May. He was a great expert in the field of the god Odin and wrote articles on the subject, most of them in French. But anyway, he showed me the way, many many ways that on

how to think about things. When I went into school and started studying religion and comparative religion and mythology and all of that sort of thing in an academic setting, I was of the opinion and feeling of thought as anybody kid might have been. In nineteen seventy three thereabout somehow paganism was about nature worship. And I see this debated on the Internet even today, and this is like

the most ludicrous idea one can imagine. It's something that has been influenced by nineteenth century or earlier critics of paganism and pre Christian religion that all the pagans worship nature, but we worship Christ and the spiritual and that's the

higher and they're the inferior, and so forth. But when we really look back at pagan thinkers, they whether they are the mythic kinds we see in the Edda in Old Norse poetry, or we look at Greek and Roman philosophers, in every way, in every dimension, these people had much more insight into the world beyond nature than any Christians

muster and pagan is. The pagan thinking was Christian. So well, these people are like studying science and doing all and philosophy, and we just simply believe in Christ and that's all you need, that kind of attitude and so forth. But he, without me asking him a question, it just quickly knew exactly the question that was on my mind, and he said, absolutely, the Pagans, the ancient Germanic people are not nature worshipers.

And that's why my early work in academia, in graduate school, my master's these this was on the idea of the heroic archetype or hero zigord and how he was his father reborn in a in all his powers and abilities. This is the way that the ancient Germanic people's conceived of quote reincarnation, quote that the through family lines, powers, abilities, and propensities good and bad would be handed on. That's like obvious or should be that they're picking up on

things that we identify as genetics and other things. But there was a whole psychology or anthropology better put in the census, studying the whole human being, both physical parts and so called spiritual parts, all a sort of spectrum of concepts and organs, if you will. And these were handed on in a traditional way that we're not somebody wasn't saying, now, boys and girls, here we are in Sunday school, and this is what you have to believe, and this is what the name of this is, and

repeat after me. And so that was not the way. It was just for the way of living. It was just part of the way in which they existed. And it's those things which I studied, and in so studying these things, the cosmology, the psychology of these of our ancient ancestors, studying them deeply enough is tantamount to a profound conversion, if you will, because you embody you you absorb these basic concepts. You're not thinking about something, you're

thinking from within something. And so that is how academia had quote the occult and quote it gets fused in my experience as a young person when I was beginning, when I was around twenty years old, you know, but I was so lucky. It's luck more than anything else to have the interest that I had, which was in nineteen seventy two, three, et cetera. Was very common, very common, much more common than now as far as just people who really weren't that enthusiastic about it was just in

the air. It was everywhere, this kind of interest in what we call the occult, mysticism, magic, etc. It was harder to find because you didn't just click something on the Internet and find out things. You had to know somebody, You had to spend a lot of time, effort, and so forth. But it was that kind of thing was

in the air a lot of people. But I had to have interest X and then to find myself in the place and in the environment of exactly the persons and place where this kind of thing could be accessed. In that academic world of the University of Texas at Austin in the early seventies, where we had a Germanic languages department, and your Polo May and others who were dedicated to this and this mentor of mine at your poleman. What many people will teach even today in the academic

world about vikings. They're more popular than ever, obviously, Uh, But the people usually treat it as a hoot. You know, it's like, good, you believe these wild and crazy guys that do all these things, and aren't they wild? Like bikers are something, and they're your professors. And now we had those two Uh treated this whole world as a kind of a bizarre, unbelievable, wacky, out of control, a bunch of heathens. You know, that's funny, as But no,

that was not the way I was taught. It was hot that these things that we are studying are serious, important, and meaningful. This is the root of who we are and who will always be if we are true to ourselves. And so that kind of attitude of serious, important, meaningful study is something that even if you can find people teaching about this sort of thing in the academic world, very few, if any, have a positive attitude towards the subject matter. And many times it's treated is absolutely well,

it's being forbidden. You know. It's been the University of Texas today, it was the place where Paul May taught, where Lee Hollander, one of the most famous translators of the Edda from the nineteen twenties, was a professor there. And now you can't even see. They don't even teach Old Norse anymore. They don't teach you at all because it's well, you know, forbidden, it's old, dead, white European men, and that's what I say of it, and so therefore

we're not teaching it anymore. Well, they won't come out. I've asked, you know, why did it disappear? And that question when I ask it of someone is the last time I ever speak of that person. They'll never answer me or talk to me again. But were asking that question, that's what happens.

beyond the experience of the mundane. If you see the old Norse cosmology where we see it most exemplified, you see these different worlds. People say, oh, Thorson or whoever is imitating the Cabbala or something, and said, well, no, you know the great Cabalist. And I studied that sort of thing when I was younger, and at the university, I took a course as a great course, you know, in Jewish mysticism. I studied it quite a bit, and

so forth and so on. And it turns out that when you get into the scholarly part of it, the whole tree of life thing, for example, was not really codified until the twelve hundred's in Spain, it's not something super ancient, but it is. It's sort of in the tradition, but it doesn't get that sort of codification till then.

And that's you read the and you see they are describing worlds, and this one is to the east, this one is to the west, this one's above, this one's below, and they in words, they paint this picture of these nine worlds, and so forth, these things exist. The natural world exists in mid guard, and beyond that, on the outside of that is a world of other dimensions. And oh,

you've mentioned animism. Well, we have two forms of approach, and animism should rarely, if ever be mentioned apart from another concept, which is its twin which people rarely talk about, and I hear in these discussions, and that is dynamism. Dynamism and animism. These are the two partners in the approach to magic or magical thinking in archaic ancient society. Dynamism is kind of like a Animism involves a creature

or something that has a a kind of identity. That's why they are characterize it under the symbols of animals, dwarves, elves, et cetera. They have an onymous, a kind of a spirit or soul. And then dynamism. Something which is a dynamistic power is something which is like electricity, it's analogous to electricity or gravity, or it is an impersonal force. May the force be with you. It can't be bargained with, It can't be communicated with. It can only be used

were using a certain quote technology. And these are not separate.

you know, a precise definition. So yeah, we just you know, maud By dynamistic and animistic concepts. And then you say, well, it's all quote, it's all dynamism. It's all a force or power. And sometimes we conceive of it as a as a as a as a pixie, or a dwarf for an elf, but it's really just a power. Somebody might argue.

soul complexes. And I'm wondering which parts of those soul complexes are sort of stabilized and perpetuated in the subjective universe buy an initiate. Is it a single part? Is it the sort of what are considered the transcendent aspects of it, the fieldga et cetera. Where is this the wrong way to approach?

magic is something that people rarely approach or talk about. Uh, you know when it's really the essential part, and that is that when you say I'm gonna do spells and do this, that and the other, you know, well, that's fine, keep doing it, son, you know, because that that'll that will render a person pretty not dangerous. But until until you say, this is how magic is done. You have to get the God, the spirit, the demon, whatever you call it. You've got to come into possession of that.

It could be it could emerge from within yourself, like the philia, and you make a bargain a union between you and this thing, which is irrelevant as to whether it's part of you or from somewhere else. It could be either or both. Uh. And that's in the Icelandic tradition. You see this and these are the a uh or it could be the philia or a lot of other names.

But it is something that you get as your autodors is what it's called, of course in the Greek tradition, uh, helping spirit if you will, and getting that and gaining a relationship in a union with this thing. This is what Croley called knowledge and contwork other's before him, but what he focused on knowledge and conversation of the Holy

Guardian Angel. And this is something, of course, as what I'm writing a little study about Croley and how he and the famous words of Maxwell Smart from the nineteen sixties. If everybody's old enough to remember, get smart one of his little catchphrases is missed it by that much. And Crowley, of course used his predecessors had used this so called bornless ritual which had come from the Greek magical papyary, and it is not intended for the purpose that they

were trying to use it for. However, there's a half a dozen other rituals in that body of which is precisely, pragmatically and fundamentally intended for that sort of working to gain this entity as you as in making it part

of yourself. And I just recently finished it's going to be published by Arcana Europa, a translation, a new translation of the translation that exists as an abomination of linguistic abomination of the German magician sexologist and all the way around Madman er Scherkly and he wrote a book called Magee, and this is one of the most honest, straightforward, pragmatic books on the subject of magic. And he just fills

it out there right from the beginning. Uh, just if you can, you know, work through his prosh is, which is you've got to get this connection with and he just says, with the demon, with the god whatever, you know, this thing it can be different ones, you know, different things. It's not all the same. It's not just one. It's it's your thing. It's something in sort of fate has intended for you or not. Most people won't until you get that thing. Uh, when you get it, all magic works. Hey,

you thing works. I do a half ass ritual I do. I just think of something that works, and another person will get his sword and make it out and get all these materials. Of course, most of all that stuff is put into the grimoires as an something which ensures that no one will ever have magic that works. And you'll always blame yourself because it says, well, if I only my sword wasn't long enough, or my.

magic is an art. It is not a science. So that motto, you know, the the uh the name of religion and methods of science is that it is relatious. Because magic is an art. Science is something that no matter who you are, a subject x y Z, scientist x y or z, it doesn't matter where in the world you are, who you are, if you do this experiment, it will work. That's science. So it makes it science.

But the fact that there's a subjective component, that is the subject linguistically speaking, subject, the doer, the doer of this experiment, of this work, is relevant. In fact, it is paramount as to the working or not working of the and of the condition, and the character of that subject is essential to the working or not working of the experiment. Magic working, and so it is an art. Sometimes it is like the that was the Chief, I can't remember the chief's name the movie Little Big Man.

You know, he wanted to die. He laid there and it didn't work. And he says, well, sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't, you know. But and a

cherycle answer. Cheritle wrote this book in nineteen thirty two something like that, and it's famous, and the previous translation was really interested in it only because it was in the bunker with Hitler and he'd been given this book by the publisher when it was published, and he had it with him in the bunker, and it was like, no, he wrote, underlined or emphasized passages and so forth and so on, and did implement, you know, many of the

ideas of this development of the magical persona, which will become a godline creature and becomes then your expression of your own person persona and personality and all these kinds of aspects. But there are many other places in there that where it's like, hey, Adolf, didn't you read this part here? You know you're gonna you know, if you do it this way, you probably destroy yourself, and so forth. He apparently ignored that part. But he this charepol is

very he's a interesting character. He met Crowley one time, this German person, a friend of theirs common friend, got him together to play chess. Crowley mentions him and he says, I didn't like that. He says, apparently he's a pretty chess master and so forth, or just the way he talks us. Obviously who won that? But you know, uh say, but he's a very interesting person, this Aaron schriful guy.

So that's why I spent this book as a comprehensive kind of introduction to his world, because I was really kind of annoyed by the fact that theives other people are just seeing his work, this particular work in the context of of Hitler, Nazism and the Nazis stripped Chareful of his PhD. And he had to work in obscurity throughout the time because he was a total decadent in the extreme. He was more known as a sex expert on sexuality and sex concerns that he was of magic,

you know, per se. But he did write this one extremely insightful book and did practice this idea. But this idea of getting this entity is I got this other book coming out called The Golder of Kla, The Golder of Klok, which means the Magical Fellowship in Icelandic and it's about Icelandic magic and the pragmatic practice of Icelandic magic, illustrated in part through the folk tales about magic, which are extraordinary documents because they these magicians in the Icelandic tradition,

they have the stories about them. But you know, magic happens in these stories, but they're not. When people think folk tales, they think of something like grims so called fairy tales, and you know, there's nothing of interest there for a magician for the most parts, because things just happen right like it's in a cartoon or something like the fairy godmother shows up and waves one something happens

and so. But these stories of Icelandic magicians they give technical details and technical terminology about how the magic works, and it doesn't it's not about turning somebody into a pumpkin or something. They're very realistic, very realistic descriptions of how of magical workings and their results and how they result, how they make results, and how people experience this, both from within the subject of the doing it as well as the people observing it. It's very real, very realistic.

So they do give insight into the workings of this kind of magic, which i uh translate many years ago the the Golderbok, which is this sort of grimoire of Icelandic magic. So uh, but there you see that they are people are getting these entities. They're called different things. Uh. The pooky, for example, is one you over probably reckon that pookyuh is uh you know. Uh. The Irish borrowed this word from the from the vikings uh, and we get it as pooka, right, but it's a Norse word

pooky uh. And it's a sort of an imp or a. It's an entity, you know. And if you uh get it and and may get your friend and become one with it sort of, then you know, you can work through that power. And that's that's what you see in the Greek magical papyety. Also that's exactly what the early and this papyrus or that there'll be this working which is how to get this spirit, how to get this parados.

And there's a great book called Jesus the Magician written by Morton Smith who was a a I never looked at that book when I was younger because of this oh keep you know, what is that crazy? But it's really just a total study of Jesus, the stories about him. Uh, And said, well, what does Jesus really do? I mean, every once in a while they'll preach a sermon to some roobs on a mountaintop. But otherwise he's performing magic.

He's a professional magician. He's a wandering healer, professional magician that's always making his quote daily bread. Uh. And so this person studies. So where do we have other things like this? Oh? Yes, well the Middle East was full of these people at the time, and the Greek magical propriety are a record of this sort of thing and grimoire style. And then he said, look at this, the

the baptism of Jesus. Okay, he's put in the water, he's up, A dove comes down, boom, comes to him and says, this is my son, and who I'm well? Please there that exists in the Greek magical propriety. There's a whole ritual if we bind up a person, wrap them in a big cloth on a rooftop, and so forth, and and do all these things, and then a hawk or a bird will come down and hit the person and say this is my son. And that's when that entity enters him. When that entity enters the magician, and

now he can do all kinds of things. But cherycle does point out, I don't believe that once you get this thing, that you can do anything, because any all the all these things, if they're real, which they are, have their own talents, abilities, natures. They're different one from the other. So you know, you may get certain kinds of abilities, but certain other ones not. You know, it's not like, well, I can do anything. It's just unrealistic.

But what is realistic is incredibly and unbelievably fantastic.

the mystery does. Mystery says, here's an opening, like a portal like you said, and this is a pathway to go Osan says when he is initiated, you know, Uh with the ordeal on Equssia. Uh, there's a say one word led to another word, one deed led to another d this was leading this going, This dynamic uh, progressive continuous pathway is the thing that the runs open and encourage. And that's why they remain a mystery. That it's a

roun and roon. Uh. The the mystery is uh. The and that that is runa if you will, is ovin'sphilia. But he is near death. This in this interressive initiation, which is done as a form of execution. That's how they sacrifice people men. That's how the Germanic people sacrificed humans was by hanging. And that's what our hangings said. What why do we think of doing capital punishment by

hanging people, isn't that kind of weird? Well, that's the way it was done, and that's the way the ancient Germanic people's sacrificed humans who were sacrificed well, generally criminals or prisoners of war now or people who had violated the divine order in some way. And the priests that the legions of Varus were all executed or sacrificed in that way. After the Battle of the Tortureburger Forest, they let the women and children in the company of the

Romans go because they weren't combatants. Now, the Romans didn't treat the Germans so well. They killed men, women, children and everybody as an act of vengeance on them. But so he is being executed, that's what's being described as a human sacrifice. He's hanging on a tree, the hanging tree. He thrust it. And by the way, that's how Stonehenge gets its name a hinge. What does the hinge do?

It hangs a door. It's a hanging thing. And that's what the Anglo Saxons were executing their prisoners of war on this thing, which looked like a gallows to them, and that's how it go its name. But anyway, he gets near death, he's getting near death, and instead of dying, he meets his failures and then becomes totally and absolutely empowered through this connection, through this union, if you will, with this contrasexual entity, this philia oruna, the mystery, the mystery,

and she is always well. Mathematicians will call it asymptote, an asymptomic thing which you can see, you can get towards, you can get close to, but you can never possess totally. You can get closer to it, you can get more together with it, but never absolutely, because she keeps pulling you on. Final part of Gerta's foulst famously says, right when Faust gert fules, Faust is not damned, but is saved in the end, but saved by whom, by God, no, by the spirit of the woman he had betrayed in life,

Margaret or Mark Great Gregson. And uh, he says, she lifts him up, saves him, if you will, and you saved by that woman who had been in life, Gretchen, who is the eternal feminine which pulls us ever onwards. Avish right, the eternal feminine and that's you know, Gerta was not studying Germanic mythology, but he might as well. He had an into intuitive mind that could grasp this concept. But so that that's what all of that sort of thing, that's what each one of these rooms is. Now they

see that the order. People break their heads over the order of the rooms. It's not really that hard once you every one of the rooms are our diaddic that is, Faith who Urus? They are similar things. Faith who is a livestock, who can be a cattle or sheep or whatever. Fay who and u Urus is a wild bison of wild buffalo type creature. There's wild they're both bovine, right, Fay who Urus? But the one is why they're dis friendshimed by one principle. What is it? Tameness are domesticity

and wildness. So they're the same and they're different in that way. Then you have order theory. Saws ans a giant and the God. They're similar. They are the spiritual entities of archetypal powers, whatever you want to call them. But one is destructive and is bad, and one is divine good and so forth. So so it goes like that throughout the twenty four, So that it's bad. That's the that's the poem, if you will. It's like it's it's a classification system. And that's where you see that.

People say, well, Germanic peoples must have invented these rooms. Well they did, absolutely did, but they wasn't like made up out of nothing. It was based on the Roman alphabet. I mean, not the order of it, but just the idea of it. You know, that's all a clever guy has to hear. It's like, look, we just yeah, make a sound, you make it, you make a sign, and you make all the sounds you have. You just got to think about it and then you put them all together.

That's why I think, weren't those ancient Egyptians or those ancient Babylonians smart enough to do that? Oh? Yeah they were, but they didn't want to do that because you know, everybody knows the computer nerd has proprietory knowledge, right, keep things as complex as possible. They can never get rid of me. They need be to to to make their records and so forth. So we're making a writing system that's is baffling in its complexity. Can they afform and hieroglyphics?

And so forth. When the Greeks just figured out, make a sound, make a sign, that's it. Every sound you may put a sign, and that's it. That's all we gotta do, and that's writing. And they did it, greats did it. And then the Germanic peoples did a similar thing. But notice it's not it's not the same. They could have just used the Roman alphabet. We use it to

write our language. Why didn't they use it to write theirs? Well, eventually they would when Christianity came, but before that they had their own thing that somebody put together into a system which had a lore attached to it, which had a different order, which had a had internal poetry to it. And that's why these people were the poets, storytellers and such of their world, and continue to be so till the very as long as there was a living Runic traditions.

That's why my book about the revival over the Runic tradition is really not about the older times when it was intact and it was an initiatory body of material. You see, because when you think about rooms were used for a thousand years or more among the Germanic peoples, and no more than one or less than one percent of people were ever literate in ruins. Just the presence of a Runic inscription callsed awe in terror. You know, just the looking at it was awesome and unbelievable. You know,

we were really taboo. You stay away from it. It's since only the few, very very few could write. It was not intended for all those centuries. It was not. It was not used for a pragmatic practical purpose, you know, ever, not until the Middle Ages a little bit later, when the Latin alphabet was also in use. Time. But so I just look at the that particular book, A Revival of the Room is about well what happened after it

sort of died out, which it never totally did. There are these areas in Sweden, uh, where the ruins continued to be in use. And that's where this famous in Sweden, famous mystic h Thomas Carlson, who may know I heard of, wrote his dissertation on this, which he wasn't alone, and others have written him on Johann Bouge or Johannes Bureus who went out into the sticks and found people who knew how to read and write rooms. And so I started to interpret these thousands of runic inscriptions which are

to be found on this in the Swedish countryside. There are thousands of them, five thousands of some odd runic inscriptions on stones that were kind of baffling to people. I thought they would make up, you know, silly ideas or what you know to us today, or so that they must have been carved by Adam and Eve. You know, they're anti Beluvian, says all. There's some kind of thing from the because they interpreted everything in terms of biblical lore.

But actually, you know, their own recent not to the recent ancestors who carve these things. And he had to find the farmers who still knew the basics of it and this and the linguists started to figure it out to say, this is what's going on, this is what

this is. And but these rooms, uh are are just and that's where you see, the most important thing we can know about rooms directly from the tradition are the room poems, because these are written by people who know this war, and so they extensively they extrapolate on the name or the and say that's what this means is the symbolism is extrapolated upon in the metaphors or kimmings, you know, so that they give us insight, direct insight into what these things mean. And that's one of the

sort of not so positive aspects. Are we take it a lot further it should and have h of talking about rooms, because the early room sort of writers, you know, uh, treated the rooms, that is in the eighties and the people like Ralph Blum or whatever, you know, treated the rooms like well, they're like it's like that's it, that's the symbol, and that's all that we really know about it. And I can now make up all sorts of crap about it in which they did, and that's the way

they were treated. Like this one thing maybe a name, it means something, but really there's poetic tradition that is attached to the Anglo Saxon room poem. There's an Icelandic room poem, the old Norwegian room poem, et cetera, which tell us directly what people who knew said about it. And that was ignored and completely overlooked by everybody early on,

you know, because they didn't know nothing. They didn't know somebody like Ralph wand didn't didn't do it, didn't even read the Encyclopedia Britannica article on rooms or writing the book, you know, so that's the way, that's the way it was in the world and the culture. Ko boops.

the with the eternal quest for the mystery. And so that didn't get followed up on too too much historically, but he did set the sort of cone for everything. But it wasn't until the late eighteen hundreds that the rooms were really well understood by scientists, by by linguists,

by philologists, the Grims founding so many things. The fathers who comparative religion, of comparative linguistics and folklore also wrote the first sort of scientific Billhelm Grimm wrote one of the first scientific books on ruins, also in the early

eighteen hundreds. But that's a constant saga that I carry in this book is the interplay, a non interplay between what we really know about rooms in the sense of the mundane aspects of it, of this tradition as a linguistic phenomenon, and what mystic mathematicians, etc. Make of it, and hundreds of years of frankly, a lot of confusion, right,

and that confusion really to my way thinking. I mean, you know, I don't want to sound braggadocious here, because it could have been done by a lot of people. But the point is it was just never done until I did it, you know, which is to remarry these two things together, which had been for his day and time put together by Johann Body around sixteen hundred, but never since then were the two impulses put together. And you're called the podcast here is called a cult rejects.

Of course that you must know that in a way, that's a redundancy, right, because a cult knowledge is rejected knowledge by definition. Okay, you know that. But on the other hand, well within the orthodoxies of the occult or whatever, you could have people who are not rejected, who are orthodox and or calling the line, you know, with what the group says you ought to think, believe, and do. That's one of the things you were at the present moment or speaking of, one of the greatest rejects that

you'll ever speak to. Because I'm rejected by everyone. I mean, there are people who appreciate it. I mean, and I appreciate that that people do. That's my I'm happy to have that understanding. It's not something I'm running from. But the academic world rejects me because I take this kind of study and I follow my mentor in saying and thinking, we are doing things here which are serious, important and meaningful.

And most academics today when you got into whether you're talking about a viking or a room, it's saying, oh, it's a bunch of silly nonsense, but it's a great way to make a living, you know. And as long as I keep towing the line here at the academic department and say the right things and have the right opinions and feelings and you know, thoughts, feelings and so forth, you know, I can keep this job. And they do.

And so that's I'm rejected because I think it means something and it's important and meaningful in the academic world. In the occult world, I generally rejected because I have this notion of authenticity and the idea that it's something that belongs to us, that it's this idea that's politically incorrect to say that the body and the soul and the spirit are unified. They said, well, that's fine as long as you're talking about you here right now, sitting

in the yoga studio. But at the point where you say my father, my grandfather and all of my ancestors are all connected and holistically connected to me, similarly, that sounds racist to me. And that's the term that way. Once time, early on, my one of my lieutenants, if you will, uh run gild member uh well, went over and to a place where Ralph Blum was giving a talk, you know, selling his latest book. And I said, I told this guy footh Arc had come out by them

by a year or so. And I told this guy to go over to this place as a venue where this guy was speaking, just across the street from the university. And uh, you know, the question and answered for it comes up, ask him if he's ever heard of Edward Thorson. And so this guy does that question. I'm not there, I'm going to show up later.

approach was there from the beginning. And the reason for this rejection and so forth is the idea of this authenticity. One thing people say, well, generally in the occult world, you find that there are people who have who like things to be extremely vague, and while insisting they are a tradition that's been handed down from the Stone Age, and we have the real tradition, and well it looks a whole lot like Ala Crowley to me. Well, no, no, no, it's from the Stone Age, you know, that kind of

a thing. And so uh as Aza Cruz, the kind of was mentioned by one of the critics early on uh is saying it's that religion with homework, you know, because we say, look, we can find out important things, really meaningful, profound things by studying old languages and old poetic texts and so forth. There right here, they've just been ignored and not used in favor of something that nobody's ever heard of before. Uhh, I had a book.

I have a book, a famous, a famous book, but a book called Hermetic Magic cam I have seen and uh I submitted that book to Llewellyn because I rarely wrote it for them. Karl Weshke and I were really good buddies. Nobody in his company like me at all, but he did so. But then he was kind of a you know, it's had to make the company men happy, and so he was sent it around to people in his company to say, what about this book or medic magic that's a and they said, well, we don't like it.

Why is that I have all these letters? You know this as well? He quotes from German sources we've never heard of, and he says things we've never heard before. That was grounds for rejection in the occult orthodoxy. You see, you would think, wouldn't you think that someone who's interested in what is hidden, who's interested in the occult in quotes, would want to hear something that they'd never heard before, would want to get something new in sight. But no,

that's not true. What people want to hear is what they already know. That makes them happy, that makes them think you're really a clever, intelligent man.

self publishing. The world we live in now is kind of liberated people now, it's a free for all, and that's one of one of my old persons, we're entering into a new dark age, and he saw, foresaw what is happening, that the dark age will be the exception of it, and its nature will be much that the truth or the good stuff, let's just say, is so buried under a bunch of you know, goal that it will be impossible to find. You know, it's not that it's not there, it's that it's been swamped by things.

And then who trains the mind of the young heads full of mush to be able to discriminate? That is eliminated. Also the guy critical thinking that we're not using the Frontfort school definition of critical, but their actual definition of critical with criteria using critical thinking of skills to say this is more reliable than that, and this is why,

and so forth. Those skills have been greatly diminished in our society, and the supply of uh craziness has been so amped up that I would say that that professor was a prophetic man saying we are entering into a new dark age. Masquerading is in a world of enlightenment.

my greatest project coming up. I'm just going starting it a thing called the wood Harrow School, in which I now I'm seventy two years old. I could not get a job in academia for the reasons I've kind of alluded to. But I wrote a lot of books, over fifty of them now, but I never got to teach, you know what I was trained to teach. And so now with the technology that exists, I am going to

do this thing. Going to have a school. We're going to have basic courses, and I'm going to teach all of the things that I was taught and that I also taught for several years in the university, UH, and have a coherent curriculum for the training of someone in old Germanic called Germanic studies, you know. UH. For example, my professor Paulmer i mentioned before, had this whole series of courses on early Germanic culture of migration age, Viking age,

you know, whole courses in that uh. And I took everything. And he, of course, a man like that in our academic world are referred to in the German world as he is my doctor father, they call him, which is a doctor father. He is your father in academia. He is you know, Alma mater is your university. But then you have a doctor father who is your sort of the man who initiates you and who is your mentor. And so a lot of what I do is a carrying on of his teaching to me, and I will

I won't pass that on. And now I'm seventy two years old, but a lot of guys were died at that age, you know. Uh. And so this is my big project on the horizons is to do this recording me complete. It's not just like I hear these things on the internet. I'm going to teach you about old Germanic tradition or whatever it is. They say is that it's going to be six hours of lecture. You don't believe that what's going to happen here is Selby's Are you kidding me? Is that a university course even one?

of thing, no one is doing it. And the reason why they're not doing it is because the younger generation people still have the energy to do it, weren't taught that way, you know, And so there's only the old school, the old geezers. I had a couple of friends who caught the the old guard, you know, at the last minute, just before they retired, and we got some people, you know, through the PhD program. That's one of the things about the Rune Guild. I was just incredibly pleased to see.

It wasn't something I said, this is what you ought to do. Is just kind of leading by example. I suppose that we have seven PhDs in our midst, you know, from major universities. Now, one time I was at a sort of this pagan gathering and this guy was there and you know, just this old guy who's older than me at the time that he had was a druid. He said that he had like a straw hat with a bunch of artificial flowers around, you know, the rim of the hat, and uh, this is doctor flowers, it's all.

I'm a PhD also, And I said, oh, and I asked the natural question, where did you go to school? You know, I mean, that's what your first question you want is where was you go? And he goes and he looks up, you know, kind of glances up in the skies, go oh, what was the name of that place? Of course it was some kind of you know, correspondence course or bumpthing. You know, this is like decades ago, so it wasn't on the internet, I don't think. But you know, that was selling the areas you're a doctor

of druidism, you know, or whatever. And of course that's become quite common because but you can only pass on what you got. It's kind of like that thing with the magical entities. I was talking as you can only be who you, who's informing you. I mean, there's a chain of and that's what tradition is all about. It's not so many people focus on papers and I got a license to do this, you know, from so and so. You know, some kind of Masonic thing, that kind of

a deal. But it's no, It's about people connection real beings, talking about animism, real beings and your connection to them. They could be human, they could be something other than human. My connection first started with getting the spirit when when Odin spoke to me, there's nothing new was shocking for anyone here to hear. I've told a story many times about when I heard the word oruna, when the old

man whispered in my ear, this is it. And like I always say, when a god speaks to you for real, all he needs is one word if it's a real and you'll spend the rest of your life understand that word. Won't be like well, I channeled this prit this MP and dictated this whole big book to me. I don't I can't understand what it means.

an exponentially you know, uh state. And I was wondering because immediately, based on the language that you used to describe this, it evoked the non duality, of the non dualism that we encounter so often in an Eastern context. And I'm wondering if these things are these things equivalent, and if they're not equivalent, what distinctives do we need to keep in mind to prevent kind of obliterating the particularities in homogenization.

you to sin you in the healings. So this is almost exact same thing because they are very close to one another. And so the idea of this East West and sort of a nineteenth century when when we discovered I mean we the Europeans discovered the East. You know, when they figured out, hey, Sanskrit is related to our language. Is no thing uh uh that there's really not. As I pointed out, I tried to emphasize in my I think I did it in the Lords of Left Hand Path.

You know that there's really uh. East and West is a false dichotomy. You could say China or you know,

the Far East is different. But India and the Indian ideas about these dualities, there's coruxier question the idea of these sort of duality between let's just say any duality is something that is something that is a part of people's thinking about overcoming it, about experiencing it, about using it, but about it being there is something very close to whether you see the Germanic tradition, it's heavily imbued with this idea of duality. Look at the eight Thrust, this

idea of these nine worlds and how they are arranged. Okay, so there is an upper world, oscar, there's a lower the hell between up and down, between east and west, between north and south. All of these things are dualism. Okay, but they're not done to say this one is good and this one is bad. They are just kind of the sources of energy, right energy. Uh, when when you like electra electro magnetic electricity, magnetism, these kinds of things

are sources of energy. What people the moralistic, the monarchy and kind of perversion. Uh, to give a bad name to a good word. But uh, you know the idea that that there is something good and bad inheriting up and down in east and west. It one has to be good and one has to be bad. Now, I'm a great fan of written three books on the idea of Mosdism, the actual uh Iranian dualism, which was not good and bad. But it is good and bad, but it's not between the things that people normally think of

as that way. That is, it's a moral dualism. This even the famous, most famous critic of good and evil, Preetrichnietzsche, So beyond good and evil, Well, he didn't say he was railing against a hundred different things that he thought were bad and a hundred other ones he thought were good. He didn't really go beyond the good and the bad. He was criticizing the idea of Christian morality, but not necessarily that there's something there's nothing good about the slaves

morality that's bad. You know, we don't want to have this other thing. So he was not really rejecting the idea of having a dualism between good and bad things, but rather simply between this idea of being morally good and morally bad. So this omnijective idea is that Oathen is one that doesn't say, okay, one is good, one

is bad. No, they are both sources of power. And so you reach out from your central position to grasp the electro and the magnetic, and you grasp them and you bring them into yourself, and you charge yourself with these polarized powers. And so that is what brings this dualism to a point of say, a source of power and of energy, not of moralizing between good and evil,

rejecting one in favor of the other, et cetera. Uh. But we are full of UH in a Germanic mythology, ideas of more morality and and good and bad and so forth. Uh. But we see in the person of Oden, the archetype of Oden. We see the sort of the the real UH, a kind of a criminal you know. I mean, but someone who has to take responsibility for his crimes. What does Oden do well? One thing? For example, he begins the world by killing a kinsman. Who is this giant? Who who is the universe as it were,

the body of the universe. Uh. But he says ultimate ancestores like his great granddaddy, let's say. And he looks at this creature's this entities world that he has, and he says, I can do better. I can make a better world than this one than this swamp of degradation that you've got here, this chaos of nonsense. I can make a better world. And so I'm going to kill you, and I'm going to chop you up, and I'm going to use your body to create a more ordered, more

beautiful creation. And that's the world we live in now, with all of the miraculous spectacle of the sky, of the night sky of the sun and the moon, and how they are perfect balance with one another, and all the things we experienced daily. Uh. Uh, that this beauty

that this divine entity creating. Uh. You know the whole controversy that people or the gray John about between intelligent design and creation and the atheists saying, oh, it's just a bunch of you know, things just happened to come together this way, and that whole debate, if you will, between God and intelligent design and evolution, and you look at the Germanic tradition, and so we know all about that already. Uh we us vikings here that people at

that academy makes so much fun of. You know, well we we we know young evolution occurred without an intelligent design, and it went a certain way, a certain dens distance. But then something happened and mind consciousness coalesced and became an active force in the universe, and it destroyed what existed and recreated it intelligently. That's what the heada tells us.

There was something there, something that evolved, coalesced, crystallized and acted in a conscious way and recreated the world in a more sensible, intelligent, and beautiful way. And that's what we live in now. And that's the battle that Othen carries out is constantly trying to maintain. It's not a trying to maintain the good, the good order, the good social order, the good physical and order, and so forth and so and so. That is what that mythology is about.

And bring the ruins back into it. That is a similarly say like, well, we these Romans have a writing system, but it's devoid of anything poetic or beautiful as we understand it. And so let's take that idea that they just think of as just a mundane, pragmatic thing that they got from the Greeks and so forth, and let's recreate it in a more beautiful and meaningful way. And that's what the runic system is for them and for us if we rediscover it. It's which we have now.

But these oden is the embodiment. There's a great academic article from the early seventies now called the Psychological and Mythic Unity of the God odin kind of a union approach. Uh and uh they're they're the The author Richard Auld points out that this God is a dualistic I mean, it wasn't what I wrote in fruth Art was influenced by this book, which is this article, which is these dualities are intense. They're not done away with it bye bye by homogenizing them into a milk sup ground. No,

that's not it. You bring these the full power of one side and the full power of the other together and there you have a dynamic explosion of energy bringing these things together. So that's what the dualism. Now, you don't generally find that approach as the aim of the so called Eastern ideas. I think probably originally it was

something like that. But of course, the religion of the rug Veda, you know, and the religion of Hinduism, which is its direct descendant, are very different from one another. You know, I mean the vading, the sacrifice, so for what they sacrifice for for long life and prosperity. They thought the people of the Arian what I classes when these people were like, you know, vaded cowboys. These were cowboys.

They were cattle herding, meat eating. They've been right at home, you know, in the Yellowstone set right, these guys that invaded India, they were cowboys and they their religion and Hinduism are very different from one another. Even though the Hindu says the Ruveda is the foundation of the religion, it has been completely reinterpreted to say that this world is a world of sorrow, some sorrow, and we want to get out of it. Please do not. I don't

want to be reborn in this hellhole of earth. Whereas the original idea is this world do we live in is as close to paradise as you'll ever find, you know, is wonderful and beautiful, and we want to be here and we want to stay here. There's a passage, you know in the Edda which has where Brindhi famous brand him is being cursed by hug Need is saying she's being being burned on the pyre with sig, which is,

let's do you find in India? In there this idea of Suti where the wife is sacrificed with the husband. You know, there's a very ancient thing and he says to her head a curse form. He says, may she never be reborn in this world, you know, because that would be the most horrible thing because what people want to be is reborn here. That's the reward, that's the good.

That's what this valhalla symbol and metaphor is all about, you know about well men will they rise up and they'll fight, and they'll die, and they'll be reborn the next day and start all over again. You know, that's just saying that's that kind of life, that kind of dynam is and that sort of life force and living and being and and and it's great. We love it where we are now, we love it. We want to keep it going, we want this to continue. You know. That

was their attitude. It's an attitude of not uh, of getting away from this world, but they're staying here and being here, uh, and that that's fundamentally different. So that's one of the things where you know, when you study the history of religion, you see that, you know, things haven't always been the way they appear to be, and a lot of things that you think are far apart

are really quite close. You know. The Germanic world, Celtic world also was profoundly affected by the invasions of the of the Iranian peoples, uh, the Sarmatians and the Scythians, who when we think of Iranian, we think of the Persians, and they really didn't, you know, that's what they looked like. But anyway, these people were uh were step horsemen, you know, the step people, which were like the originally into Europeans themselves. Uh. And they were there in Europe uh at the time.

And Tacitus mentions the Sarmatians and the Germanic people and uh, but there a lot of the ideas that they brought in and reinforced among the Celts, and then the Germanic people were profound and some of the things about the uh cosmology and all sorts of things were Scythian or

Sarmatian in origin, it seems. And one of the great sort of signposts of this is that the art form, the interlace art form, and things we associate with Celtic and Germanic art are directly of Sarmatian origin, which were these Iranian peoples, and they had a profound effect. I wrote an article in the journal Tear of which they heard of about the Germanic and Iranian religions and traditions and so forth in their comparison, many huge catalog the

catalog of details. But you know the roosters. I just got a rooster where our friend of ours died and we had a rooster there, and so we brought him home. So I've had this rooster for a while, and so I named him Potto darsh, which is the Persian war. They foresees the dawn, you know these I learned that the roosters start crowing like hours before the sun comes up. They're not responding. They know. It's like a couple of hours. He starts about four o'clock in the morning. And that's

what this thing is like. The rooster foresees the coming of day and it calls people to action. And that's what you see in the Edda and in this Iranian tradition in the Avesta, and that's the power and the meaning of the rooster is just what appears to be a trivial, you know, but you find that they were extremely important to the Iranian people. Uh. The Greeks called the rooster the Persian bird. It was so important. But uh,

the uh. But these kind of little trivial things that they will you'll see this one after the other that you find in the Norse tradition and in the Iranian tradition, which seems so far apart, you know, people say, how could it be, it's crazy, No, it's not, because look

at that the Sarmatian they were intimately involved. There's a whole book on you know, the whole Amazon, the Volkirie idea, right because of Sarmatian women for example, had to so the custom went had to kill a man in battle, of an enemy man in battle before she was allowed to marry. It's obviously a eugenics program, right, that only a woman of that caliber. That's the origin of the

Amazon mythology. Also, the city and women did the same, so you know, they would killed warriors, they were warriors, and that's this idea of the Vola curis and so they were real and the women were bed. The Viking age did fight and they did that sort of thing. Uh So these kind of you won't find a Greek woman doing that or a Roman woman doing that. That would just freak a Roman dude out, except a Spartan woman maybe. But you know, for the most part, that

is taboo. That is just unbelievable, that can't be. But the Norse people that was fine. That was and that's that link. It's not just into European a specific kind of uh connection between the these Iranian people and I use the word Iranian. It's like this big, big giant world. Scythians and Sarmatians are not like the very different culture you know from the hyper civilized world of Persia, but same you know, same group. But but so these are

That's always important to realize. I think the history of these ideas and how when historical information can say this is not this is understandable and quite quite quite clear, you know, as to where these things come from and how they evolved. But only in later times does it seem that it's unbelievable. It's ridiculous. This is art bell stuff, you know. I mean, this is crazy. This can't happen. No, it's just an ordinary pretty uh pretty clear as to how these things happen. But it's list.

in general. Like I think that there is a kind of interest, especially from some of your quotes and some of your protegees like Don Web and Toby Shoppel in the lovecrafty and mythos, and I'm very interested in, like, what are your thoughts on this kind of I'm calling it appropriation but I don't mean it in a misappropriation, and I just mean that use of it by them to describe magical ideas. So maybe words containing the logos of meaning, and they're sort of adopting this different framework

to describe it. And I wanted to hear if you had me either positive or negative thoughts on that.

If you can do that doesn't mean that meaning is you're that the mean meaning? Actual traditional things are insulted or misdirectly, it is an exercise in being able to create meaning. And that the idea that I was bringing up with, oh than recreating the world he had a world he received, but he says not good enough, I want to exercise like an artist. I want to do and that is something that you are able, that we are able to do it, and that people do it,

and that they find a meaning in it. Is a powerful exercise in, for example, the idea of left hand path. Uh uh, creativity. Right, So if you don't just accept, you don't only just accept what is given to you, but rather you take it upon yourself. If you have the talent, ability and strength to create, to be a godlike creates an exercise in being a god. So that is like, that's the way I look at it. I think the way most people within the you know, tradition do.

That's only certain people would actually say, well, I think that love credit is really into the cold Man, and he was revealing, you know, the truth about something really deep and he's a you know, of course anybody knows anything about love crad No, you know that was not

the case. So but the fact that a subsequent generation could make you, you could could use us in a conscious and godlike way, is what is being exercised here with the idea of the neo mythology and creating magical Well, ako, you know, somebody like a John D. You know, creating the Anachian system and that sort of thing, uh like, is that from somewhere else? So it's it's like made up here, but it's used work. So you know that again is an exercise in uh human creativity. One thing

we know, you know, does god exist? Does a god exists? Well, sort of setting an answer as well, yes that does. Because you have intelligence, you have consciousness, and he has it and she has it? And where did it come from? It must have come from somewhere and we all got it for most of us got it. It's very if we can It's like benium of Frankulently. You know, you have a republic if you can keep it. You have consciousness if you can keep it, develop it and and

strengthen it. But so that is the thing that we say that we have that power, and it does just because we have the well, we have the potential for that power and we have the possibility of being able to exercise it in a beneficial I mean that that it is a way in which it helps us, doesn't just make us crazy. You know, it can also do that. That's why, like Michael Aqueino said, you know, black magic

is dangerous. It is dangerous and people say, oh, you know, to be destroyed by the demons where you could be, but they're probably demons of your own creation, you know. Uh. But being able to you know, you've got to be able to handle the explosives that you're using, you know, with with with care and wisdom and to make you so that it helps you and doesn't hurt you. And that's why a lot of people just stay away from it,

don't risk it, right. And of course, like I said earlier earlier on here about the grimoires and that sort of thing about saying that your sword has to be so long and this kind of that was just the you know there the seals on the systems involved. So people say, I'm not going to mess with this. It's too complicated. It's to it's not. But that fact is something you know doesn't help you, you know, but you got it can be much simpler, well, much harder, but

much simpler. H So does that answer the question about new mythology at all?

problem with it is well, numerous problems. And that's one of the things to some uh sentiens and so forth, the ones I really try to encourage, not directly, but you know, is to discovering or rediscovering the actual you know, nothing is more fraught with nonsense than Egyptian things, right, I mean, due to the history of us not knowing how to read hieroglyphics for so many centuries, and people making up Egypt is always important, you know, from the

Bible or whatever, always by important and powerful in all those things. But most of the stuff that was said about it is nonsense, you know, and it became codified nonsense over centuries of time, and so cutting through this to get back to the and a lot of it is of the Egyptian's own creation, not just historically, just like the role of set, you know, being like, oh,

he's a demonic, terrible thing. You know, it's like, well, no, you know, he's our And of course I had had a lot to do with because he's a god of foreigners, that every foreigner came there, whether they were exol su Persians or whatever, adopted him as their god, because that was the only Egyptian god that was acceptable to be adopted, you know, because he you know, he likes your He is a god of foreigners. You're a foreigner, so he's

your god. Okay, we'll go with that. You know, whatever makes you happy, and you know, just keep the peace. But now recently in this century, Egyptologists have really we have rediscovered a lot of really important things that cut through the nonsense and make it for the first time. It's such a difficult thing to understand because I think that we there are no Egyptians, right, there are no Egyptians. Don't exist anymore. You you know what I mean, You understand what I mean. M h.

the dramatically or Roman or a reigning or whatever. That there is a the Indians, or it may have changed, but there's a there's there are people who are the people are the ancestors still live, you know, and so the Egyptians are gone, and so people have u for a long time I admired them and and had looked to them for meaning, and so they have made meaning oftentimes when none was well it was truly there, and

so that confuses things even more. But through uh, I think inquiry, through scholarship, a lot of things have been uh, you know, rediscovered. A lot of people have been breaking their heads over Egypt for a long time, clever uh, the intelligent people, and getting much much closer to understanding it and than anyone ever has before. And and of course Egypt is so ancient that even within its own cultural continuity, things got lost and had to be rediscovered

and revive even within the timeframe of the Egyptian world. Uh. You know, that's one of the things that you will say. You know, it's no accident that you know, the big sort of scientific encyclopedia of Egyptology is actually called, uh, the in Cycopedia the Age. You know, it's like in German most of it, I mean, because you look at

German philology, science, linguistics, et cetera, and so forth. One of the things was that Germanic things were so hard to investigate that these clever German scholars had to develop a lot of techniques and methods of uncovering the hidden, uncovering what was not known, by using evidence in increasingly clever scientific ways to make these these difficult bodies of evidence yield their true meaning. And they were interesting. Was you know, the Greeks and the Romans they got there,

so they speak that language. Do we know their language? They had all these texts. If you were really interested in pagan Greeks or Romans, all you got to do is pick up a book and read it. It's right there. But we have to the Germans have to deal find

the manuscripts hidden in Iceland somewhere, dig it up. And so in that whole process they developed methods and of understanding difficult bodies of evidence, and that then became applied to everything, you know, whether it was studying the Babylonians or finding Troy or doing this that are just applying these methods to all kinds of cultures and so that's why you know that that that uh, we're using that

and it doesn't happen overnight. But you know, we have been able to dig up a lot of things about Egyptian culture, religion, mythology that was previously buried under either ignorance or misformation, made up stuff.

pronouncing these words in the Egyptian language. So that proved an impediment right there, as well as the fact that in the Bible they refer to Adam and Eve's third son, which would be the progenitor of all of mankind, supposedly as set or Seth.

the Christians and the Jews as being anoalators. And so the very first graffiti of Christianity would be the analatry of Jesus having a donkey's head, and that donkey's head is representative of the god set And if you look at the reports from the desecration of the Second Temple by Antiochus Sepaphanis, you find that he was talking about this golden donkey head inside of the Second Temple, and also this giant marble statue of Moses writing the donkey.

And you've also got the reports from the New Testament of Jesus writing the donkey, and all of these things sort of relate back to this anolatry sort of coming out of Egypt.

antiquity and things like that. As far as the you know, the stories may be ascribed to older things, but they are more recent thing and said the God said to the god of the nineteenth, eighteenth and nineteenth dynasties of the Egyptian. You know, it's a different sort of creature in norways than one, and so it has this whole. Is the Martian, you know, the god Mars, if you will, the war god of the ancient Egyptians with Uh and Ramises,

the greatest polity, I suppose, the greatest pharaoh of all. Right, Ramis is the second is the great is a Seti So and of course he was we have his mommy. He was one of the ones where and he was flaming red hair. There's all of it. And that's one of the things ascribed to set Uh and to the followers have set is that they're based on this. It wasn't because of you know, redhead Uh. You know, there are stereotypical things about redheads, you know in general, but

the about their anger, their volatility. So but that's more European kind of stereotypes. Uh. He was a foreigner, you know, that family where a bunch of foreigners from somewhere else. But that was true of so many Seti and people. I mean, well, it's again like I mentioned the Heksaus

of the Persians. I mean, he wouldn't say, oh, the Persians are going to worship was set and he's considered to be a kind of an evil god, which is not true, but if he is can be considered that later towards the end of the Egypt you wouldn't think Persians would be into that because they're you know, the worship of bah Ramazda, the Lowi's lord. So I would was a player of Apep.

and not confuse the time period. Almost confusing light antiquity Ptolemaic Egypt with eighteenth dynasty is like, well, you might as well be China in Ireland, you know. But I mean, I mean, it's not that extreme, but you know what I mean, it's a lot of differences going on.

the culture. That's why all of our Egyptological terminology, whether it's a pyramid or obelisk or whatever, all Greek words we rarely ever use Egyptian words if ever, you know, uh, for the for these things, you know, because it's so impenetrable.

They're Canaanite. And that's they refer to Canaanite mythology, not to Hebrew mythology. And that's why no Cobbalists, no Hebrew you know, mystic or Jewish person interested in this sort of thing makes use of the names of the Hebrew letters the way that Germanic enthusiast makes use of the names of the rules. This is not relevant. They're numbers. But then we go, oh, wait a minute, numbers and

Hebrew letters. They really weren't used as numbers for a while because the earliest manuscripts of the Bible which have chapter and number numbered are in Greek letters, not in Hebrew letters.

living tradition from ancient times. It might not be. They might not have invented these things, but they created a culture in which they have been continued in a living way to this day. And that is a that is an incredible achievement, you know, culturally, that you have that kind of ability to carry that on.

not Judaism. Kabala is not Judaism. The Rabbi is not interested in this. We teach this among ourselves, we have our school and we do this, but it is different from them. They understood it as being a foreign body in their hard in pabalistic six about uh obecures and so forth. You know, have made that, but that's not the main body to think, you know, with Judyism, but

it's not the essence of Jutism. We have occultists, you know, who kind of grew up as I did, you know, the six sixties and seventies whenever, you know, on Crole and the Kabbala and you know, an old and God and they idolize that. They think and I think that this is the origin. You know, the Cabala is the origin of everything, and everything's intelligible through the cab through the tree of life and becomes all that and becomes like an idol, you know, a fetiche. But you know,

feel it away. So that's not what it is. It's not what thank you, you know, it's something. It's big, it's.

Egyptians and the ancient Israelites. Right, does do the centuries of sort of like creative interpretations and creative attributions that are kind of built onto both of these you know, languages, these cultures, Does that give them some kind of maybe enhanced magical potential kind of in the neo mythological sense.

then retro fitted to say this is what it was from the beginning and always was when it was really a recent events. But then when that thing goes on for a while, we as living in this moment in time, interpret it and can feel it as having always been there. That's one of the things about uh, like immigrants are thinking about. Like Jewish people for example, is a good example of this. You know how uh you know this family I was a part of for a lot, you know,

you'd see h that you know they've come over. They be practically you know, just to be impoverished and this kind of thing. But they're focus on learning and saying you've got to learn, go to school, and then they have these family h traditions that you know, you know, your great grandmother was like the first woman to become a doctor in Odessa. You know, I call a bunch of nonsense. But see what they do is they instill

it in the kids, this is possible. You did it before, We've done it before, and pretty soon you've got a system working there that goes from where a bunch of rag pickers and the next generation we're winning Nobel prizes. You know, you're saying, you do it, We've done it, We're great, We're gonna you know, and uh, you got to learn. You got to learn, You got to study. You've got to make the great you know. I mean, you've got to work hard, but you can it. It

is possible. But if you tell people it's impossible where nobody will never be anybody and forget about it, don't work for Let somebody do that for you, et cetera. Those are programs for disaster, for cultural disaster, as opposed to flip it around and you've got it. Change You can change it as a matter of will you know, but you got to apply that will Stephen.

they are, but it does. Just paradigms are consistent about heroic models and thinking that what is possible and applying that and all those things are are real, very practical and an individual applications also obviously you know about who you are and what's possible for you and h and

achieving you know that sort of thing. Uh, the magic comes in, that's it, I mean, that's part of part of yeah, part of certainly changing your subjective universe and uh, and as we see that, the subjective universe becomes the

objective reality regardless. Uh, you know, but it's most interesting to me as to how cultures, you know, individuals, any individual part of sort of left hand path or setting and thinking, you know, it's capable of just about anything an individual, uh, but hurting the cats, as doctor Quino would say, you know, uh, that's the challenge.

One of his mentors was Ragavon i Are who the professor of political science, and uh this book he wrote called uh uh parapolitics. Yeah, you know, anyway, he would say, you know, read that. That's all you need to do. You know, you certainly don't want to talk about But I noticed in studying him, just observing him over the years, is that he practiced political thinking in the Temple of set in ways that the initiates, most of them don't

didn't realize. And if you look at the way in which the organization has flourished and continued, you know, it's a grand working on his part of politics as he saw it, the true application in an initiatory environment, you know, to create a culture. And then we're talking about creating with neo mythologies, et cetera, and so and I see that in this instance he was successful so far as creating something to live beyond him who which is has

been created, you know, by design. And it's very difficult. I can imagine if all of us have probably been involved in occult organizations of one kind or another. And no, as he would say, you know, it's like herding cats.

warfare on the enemy. But when those same systems, the projection system with reply back over the American troops, he just flip on rock and roll, you know, and they thought they were like playing rock and Roll to the to the be it calm, you know, which is not true, but you know that's what they were hearing when these coming back over friendly territories.

in more general terms, what do you think reintegration? I think is a word that you no. Reinclusion was the

word you use. What what does that look like when the when the initiative is tasked to sort of return to the broader you know, the large a super you know, super individual organisms that he's a part, tribe, clan, you know, nation, Whatever that looks like for him, does that does that initiate have duties, responsibilities, et cetera to those broader organisms and sort of what is his place even as he is a god of his own making?

And that is true of every kind of initiatory right of passage practiced by everyone you know, from anywhere universally. And so the that's it's true and proper and beneficial to everyone because you say that, okay, setting an initiation for examples that emphasizes this separation or individuation, individuality and

so forth. But you know, the reinclusion part is important for the individual because you want to create a society, a context all that is beneficial to that individual that individual. No individual can exist and live in isolation on a day to day, every day basis. So uh, you want to improve the environment, uh, in order for for for selfish reasons, and just to make things better and more pleasant for yourself and for everyone around you. So uh though those uh it would be a short sighted and

unwise thing to this time. I'm just interested in myself and everybody else be damned, you know, I'm interested in myself and I want to help others. Also, there's a as Michael Aquino being sort of an archetype of this. To me, as a single living example of it, there was I never met, or interacted with, or lived around a man who was more saintly than he was, you know, more more kind, more uh just h helpful and and

and in every way. I cannot think of any example of any moment or anything he ever did, said, or anything that was not calculated, apparently on his part, to be a creative of a maximally beneficial environment for an individual. Two become and for the world in which that individual circulated being mainly the environment of the temple set let's say, uh, to be beneficial to everyone involved. I would and I noticed this is the an maybe you know, write a

book about him, uh, with the cooperation of Lady Lilith. Uh. And it's going to be difficult, but uh he uh, it's little anecdotes like this. He would be in uh, you know, conclave. Not all settings, as I know, comes as no shock anyone, you know, don't all get along. You know, there's rivalries, there's animosities, there's all sorts of things. And that's one of the things that he doesn't This was his herd, them cats. Uh. And we would be

in the Magic Castle. It's a place where magicians, you know, the stage magician in la you know it.

People say, what does he do? He's like humming some kind of low tone sort of sound that was emanating from him when Jesus is coming or something. And I was watching. What he was doing was he was bringing these desperate elements in his presence around the table into a harmonious interaction, you know. He was bringing them into a harmonious communicative like they say communal, you know, and

that was a working you see. I'm not saying he said that, but he would do that kind of thing, you know, the kind of thing of you know, okay, you are in the ritual chamber and the bells are ringing and the da da da da dada. That's that's that's junior league. You know. He, for example, in this very same magic castle, he brought me. He goes, come on, flowers, we're going here. And so he took me in the building.

He took me down to the basement of the building and there he reached into his back, you know, his satchel and his thing he's bringing along and he brings out this ss Dagger, the one he can famously see him in the occult experience, you know, talking in the castle, right, the right guess, And that's what we're getting at here. That he took me down there and he says, okay, and he presented it to me, gave it to me, and he knows that the Germanic tradition, or he doesn't

know and necessarily doesn't know. This is the miraculous thing about this man is that he could elicit without doing research, could elist in all kinds of authentic magical practices and workings just intuitively. Bars he would call it pnoetically, that is, rationally into it, like platonic thinking. And uh would say, here here they presented to me based on my work, and so forth and kind of thing. And by where did he? Where did we do this? In the basement

of magic Castle. We couldn't get to the babeles work in la that so he but he did it, say right there and then there did And then this idea of you accept a blade from your lord, you know, it's the kind of this nightly And of course the Order of the Trapezoid is a ship alric organization see knighthood and such.

But it's a reflection of this courtly ritual in the North, which is an idea that they say that you're the guy's sword giver and the sword taker, and if you're a sword taker, then you're obligated to the sword giver to put that blade in the service of the lord. See, that's your tool. It's like I got a automobile repair shop and I'm going to give you a set of tools. But that's because I want want you to do my work. You know, it's working them in my shop. You know.

That's uh, maybe retinue the lord in his retinue. And that's how the Germans call it. A men are bunk, that's uh. You know this the men's societies, the warrior societies that you know, carried on the uh and that's what it was like a h you know, very ancient cultural things. But yeah, but that's just an example. You're talking about the politics and of this. I mean, that's how a master such as Michael Quino was and uh

and his point, as I have tried to do. It's my point of being a master is to create other masters. That's what you want. And that's true in like just to take a guild like a shoemaker's guild, that's a school and your point is to make good shoes. And so masters are the teachers, and they teach people how to make shoes, and then they become masters and then they pass on that. Now that's part of the whole system. And that we're talking about culture quite a bit here.

That's an idea of building a culture and perpetuating a culture. The techniques are the same whether it's a that's what a university is. It's a guild of just like a shoemaker's guild, but we have intellectual product.

initiatory school that I created. You know that I see that we have now seven PhDs there, and that's not saying that That's why I've recognized many masters in the Room Guild who are not PhDs or poets and songwriters and all kinds of other things, because there's other ways to demonstrate mastery. Mastery is one thing, but the way in which it's expressed as many and you want. Being a good teacher is one being able to recognize the expression of others which are not necessarily one's own. But

the degree of mastery is nevertheless equivalent. And but the fact that so many occult in the cultusoid and incompunte world, you find that the masters, so called masters, are people who are hell bent on keeping everybody else down so that they can remain the smartest guy in the room. You know. And when somebody said to me recently or I heard you somewhere recently, this is it. Hey, if you're the smartest guy in the room, you're keeping their own company.

You know, university traditionally and a good university, you know that let anybody who's just cool, you know, come in and then hang out. And that's what I want to have also, you know. And but a certain number of students, approximately twenty, I will actually take under my wing then will actually you know, teach them in the ways beyond just what's in the lectures and so forth requirements and just like a university. So what Harold School is on the horizon?

live and until the next one. Everybody be well A little later