I see somethings are going to happen.
What's going to happen?
What?
Welcome to the Occult Rejects. It's an episode. I'm very excited. I have another author on, uh and it's about you know, religion and reality, one of the books that we'll touch on and some other things that he has written. And I definitely think it will fit the show and I'll have a great chat. But before we introduce him, let me introduce the other rejects. And we got Lisa the Occult reject, bad scientist. How are you?
I'm good, I'm very good. Thank you for having me on. I'm very much looking forward to this conversation. I first came across Darren, remember we had we were talking throughing on whiteheads theories and process philosophy and stuff like that, and I stumbled upon there and when you told me you were having him on, I was like, Oh, this is gonna be great to me, A great discussion. So looking forward to and thank y'all fellow rechecks for also having me on.
So of course, thank you, thank you for joining us. And we got Tyrone. What is going on, sir? How are you.
Here?
What's going on?
Hey?
Nice?
To meet you, Darren. This is going to be an interesting show.
That's actually my first time hearing about you, so I'm gonna definitely be paying attention. I'm ready to take notes just like always, and uh yeah, I'm just ready to get it on.
So yeah, thanks Nick, appreciate it, of.
Course I appreciate it. And uh for people listening by the time this comes out, I would assume maybe, uh Tyrone's work is already out by then, definitely go check out on the Universe Unveiled. My man killed it today with the show on the the Adunaki and on zachar Ryers Sischen's work. I definitely suggest to please go check that out. And then we got Ethan Indigo. What is going on?
So very cool.
I'm looking forward to checking that out, Tyrone. Uh yeah, I've been checking out Tyrone's book, and I'm also a writer and uh recent article on a research institute dot org and more to come, and excited to hear about Darren's stream of study.
Very very intriguing.
Hell yeah, right, definitely, thank you, Ethan. I appreciate you. Want to promote any of your books, h yeah.
The Fourth Initiation is is my most recent one. And and I've been checking out uh Tyrone's book, and Ricardo wrote a book too, and yeah.
A bunch of a bunch of writers. So this is this is gonna be fun.
Yes, definitely, definitely. And finally to the man himself, Darren, Unfortunately, I'm not exactly sure how to pronounce your last name. I'm meant to ask you before we recorded, and I was like I was introducing everybody. I'm like, damn it, I never hasked how today his last name.
It's brutal.
I was like, Iam Mareno, maybe that's how I was gonna say, but I was like, I don't know. So Darren, introduce yourself. Please let everybody know what you deal is. Let let any any receipts you want to bring and tell people about your past, what you studied this and that, or any books. Please let everybody know.
Now, all right, I mean, I'll keep that short. It's not that interesting my last name. I just go off. I'm Marino. That's not really how you pronounce it, but it's easiest, so simple that way. I went to I got my PhD at Claremont Graduate University up in LA in philosophy of religion, and I did focus on specifically process theology. I heard that mentioned Whitehead. I didn't know. We even't really go into that. I don't We'll see if you want to. I'm happy to go down that.
But that's a that's a challenging Yeah, can of worms. So I went there, and then I taught at San Diego State for like four or five years and over you now University of San Diego, taught at Claremont School Theology and two books that maybe we'll get into today. One is Religion Reality and that does have a lot of actually processed philosophy and Whitehead material in there. And then totally different type of book maybe we'll touch on it.
Lessons from the Afterlife for a Happy Life goes into like near death experiences, but instead of exploring whether they're true or not, it's basically just accepting that people are having an amazing transformed experience from these indies. So maybe we can like utilize aspects of the indie experience to sort of recreate that without having to actually go through the brutality of the near death part.
So vertit.
Yeah, when I had saw that you did work on that too, I was like, that could be a whole of the topic or the show itself, because we've had people on Fendes as well. I'm very very interested in those I've said it multiple times myself on the show. I even think with even if you want to take out like magic or ritual magic or occultism, I would even say the Shamans are pretty much putting themselves close to an end or or death experience to have the
experience that enlightened them. So I'm very interested in that stuff. I guess, Darren, what got you? What interested you to start getting into these studies? I mean, were you were you kind of like open to the occult or esoteric maybe putting you know, I know, cult sounds worse, you maybe open to esoteric stuff like an earlier age, And that's why you went into like kind of studying this stuff for school.
So I actually came at sort of the occult esoteric stuff a little bit later. Okay, So I started. I started off more because I was doing philosophy and religious studies because of the overlap on the big questions, the nature of bolts in reality, meaning of life, the big the big sort of topics. Right. I was into metaphysics pretty specifically in theology and then I have an eclectic interest, so I'm like, hey, I want to start I want
to start reading all these occult esoteric books. And I actually have an antiquities collection as well, separate famith, so I have like some I have some really rare old cult books.
Something I just I just want to ask real quick. I know how we were talking about like Platinis and Plato earlier with those people that you were studying, when you mentioned that you were into philosophy, were you already looking into those people then? Yeah, absolutely, Mean that's really interesting because I mean I had heard of them when I was a kid, of course, you know, growing up in school, and then like I guess, you know, whatever his life went on, I just didn't think philosophy was
important and other things were. And when I came back around getting into the occult, their names are huge and pop up again. So it's interesting how like when you find them or when like or when I was younger and came across them, the occult was nothing to it or was just falling as if he deep thinking. But then when you get into for me, into occultism or I was in the Oto, their names were big, you know, Like I said, some of them are on the Saints List,
So I find that just like very interesting. I think that's probably why I assumed you must have been involved in the occult. They're interested in the esotericism prior to this because of the you know how I look at it now.
Yeah, it's interesting with Plato, right, especially because he's foundational. I mean, that's pretty much like a one oh one class. They're gonna hit you with a lot of Plato and Aristotle as well, right, but Maine with Plato, I would say, and a few people are aware. I imagine that all of you probably are. But Platonic thought influences everything, everything.
I even think it might have had an influence with Kabbala.
Everything.
Yeah, it was like, yo, when I started looking at them, I was like, this sounds just like the supernal triad. This is unreal.
Look why led just to bring since what Whitehead was mentioned or whatever? Process philosophy? He specifically states that, I mean, I'm paraphrase. I don't remember the exact quote. The effectively, history is nothing but a series of footnotes to Plato, which is at least a half truth, I would say. I mean, he pretty much lays out Plato does a lot of the core issues and arguments that are still talked about today even in the twenty percentury and philosophy courses.
So and Christianity, right, most people when they think Christianity, they're like, oh, it's it's it's against paganism. It's nothing but littered with neo platonic Since you mentioned platonis right, specifically neo Platonic thought everywhere.
And then if you go by what Platonist is saying, he's like, I'm not even creating anything new here, I'm just expanding on Plato and trying to make that more understandable.
Yeah.
I mean if he says that you're right, yeah, he doesn't true.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
So I that was definitely where you need to start there. I'm a big fan of going chronologically right. I've never understood, like, I have no problem throwing one of my former colleagues
under the bus. Won't name names, but they were They weren't too happy about the fact that I, like, I was teaching that intro to philosophy class and I had all this ancient material and then I had medieval philosophy as well, and they were basically like, why are you teaching this jump straight into Renada card just start there and move forward. And I was like, all right, let's just throw out I guess thousands of years why not? So it's interesting And in the world of philosophy, there's
definitely like camps people that like Whitehead. I mean, I think the people like white Head are pretty open minded to but like a lot of people don't like Whitehead.
Let me put it that way, and what do you think the inclination for that perspective is that they don't that they want to start at the cart and not.
Look at the Greek.
To answer that. Partially, I think it's because the medieval period, at least specifically is so has so much of the theology, right, and so they don't want to talk about arguments for against existence of God. And a lot of these people are more atheists, right, so maybe think it's a waste of time. This person did tell me that it would be okay to have one week on ancient Greek thought. I'm like, oh, wow, one week, all right, I guess that covers it is jam everything and that, right. I
don't know beyond that, it's a good question. I'd love to get inside their head to know why, but I.
Wonder how much of it is because it's so contested, and that there isn't It's not just two camps of thought, you know, pro or four. It's like all these little SubCamps of thought. And I think it also has roots in who influenced Plato. And there's so many contested theories about Pythagoras, there's so many contested thoughts of empedicallys and you're having these ancient philosophers also feed into some of Plato's theories and thoughts. And if you already have camps
from those two, great now you have Plato. And it's just it's too complicated. It's like a girl's brain. It's like too many things going on at the same time.
You're definitely right pythagorists. I mean, there's no denying that he's a massive influence on Plato. I mean, it's just I don't even think too many people would hopefully dispute that. But that brings your esoteric also kind of into the into the picture. I don't think they had as big of a thing back in the ancient world. Of like a problem with this is more on the esoteric side. Therefore, we can't touch it or whatever. I think they were more open and philosophy was about catharsis.
You see.
It wasn't just like this, arn't you know, sitting in our ivory tower at a university arguing in someone else in another university. It was meant to actually be therapeutic. So if you're doing it's wonderful.
How some of the ancient lessons come in layers that manifest differently depending on where you're at, and years later obviously you might get different you know, lesson from it, right, And all these esoteric lessons they're in there, and there's also the very you know, the basic one too often, the mathematical one for instance.
Definitely didn't they worship like you got. I don't know, Ethan, do you know the Bagerians or Lisa.
Yes, they celebrated, but they were all about the ten. So yeah, sorry, Ethan.
No, I was going to say that that kind of has the four layers of the tech tractus being one point two points three and four. It kind of has the four and the ten, and it depicts the four dimensions of geometry. I know that they I think they really love nine and the Textractors kind of encompassed everything. But I have heard variously that the Pythagoreans despised two as they saw it as being divisive, almost like we would understand the polarization idea, and the trinity was perfect.
The three was perfect because of the fact that it had the two sides of equilibrium and the middle part.
That makes sense.
To me. Oh, I was gonna ask you, Darren, so what was it that made you get into doing religion and reality book? That book?
So, to be honest, that was sort of an outgrowth of my dissertation in large part that particular work. I'm pretty shocked they even allowed me to do it because typically with a dissertation, as you know, it's like narrow, narrow, and narrow right down to something ridiculously specific. Whereas I went the opposite direction. I'm like, hey, I want to try and make some massively comprehensive thing, and for whatever reason,
they let me do it. So that's what got me started on that project, and because I wanted to look this might bring up another interesting point for us to discuss. So a lot of people that say they're spiritual but not religious, common phrase right to do. I mean, we've all heard it right, So typically what people mean by that. Obviously this doesn't cover everyone, but I think in large part they tend to believe when they say that deep down, all the religions are the same, They're aimed at the
same object and have the same form of salvation. So this might be known as the perennial philosophy. Perhaps you've all heard of that. That's in the last least one hundred years or so, how you might hear it referenced, And it's a common belief even still, and so religion reality, that book is actually going against that whole set of claims. So it's a different framework for dealing with interreligious dialogue.
You see. The real problem with the idea of like deep down they're all the same is that if I'm a Christian, you're a Buddhist, we can have a conversation and it can be cordial or whatever. Maybe I'll learn something about like your temple or you know, wherever you some ritual you do. But I'm not going to be able to learn anything of ultimate importance that I couldn't learn from my own tradition. See, because it's like they all lead to the same summer on that view, So
I don't really need to have a dialogue. You you know what I'm saying, Like I can, but I'm not going to get anything of the deepest, most profound importance from a dialogue.
If it all gets you to the same area, what's the difference exactly?
Its purpose was to generate dialogue, see this perennial philosophy. But in the end it almost makes it unnecessary.
So that's almost such I've always thought religion is just merely a language to have a dialogue with God. That No, this may offend a lot of people, but no language is perfect or no language is the ultimate, no language is the right one.
It just is like religion, it just is.
It is the way to actually have a tool to communicate with the divine. But and so what you're saying is if it all gets us to the summit, that's a pretty aligned with kind of what I was thinking.
Well, so what I'm saying in the book is that there are different paths, different summits, not that they're all going into the same right like the same you know, apex, like you have in entpreneur philosophy. If it's if it's true that there are different components, that comprise ultimate reality, and ultimate reality is more like a complex adaptive system requiring these multiple parts. Now we can propose that Buddhism is focused on one or more of these parts. Christianity,
Judaism as long are focused on a different component. If you can accept something like that, now there's actually a necessity for dialogue because if I'm talking now a Christian of a Buddhist, I'm able to enrich my personal you know, spiritual life or religious life through dialogue and through practicing in your faith essentially and.
The diversity of belief.
Yes. And the thing is like, okay, so if I make that claim, what's my supporting evidence? And supporting evidence is easy to find, which is actually read all the sacred texts. A lot of people don't.
So that's what I always say too. I always tell people read the sacred text. I was just talking about that earlier today. That's the most important thing, and that's just learning the basics. That's just that's the basic fundamental foundational thing to understanding anything is just read the basic text first. I mean, you're gonna have different translations and so on and so forth, but they're going you'll get a better idea if you just read the text for yourself.
Yeah, you got, you have to do that. I mean, so the text is one piece of this to build a case. A second piece is the commentary tradition. That's where you get a lot of the stuff really is coming out of like the most famous person who's given commentary right on this religion. Right, So that's the second thing. Then the third piece is read the accounts of religious
experience from those traditions. So if you do all three of those things and then you look at the evidence, you'll find that it's very difficult to uphold the claim that they're all the same. In fact, even in the
same religious family using similar religious language. To your point, so right, like say Jews like versus Christians versus Muslims or something, there's radical differences, right, like tranitarian Christianity versus strict Monotheism within Judaism and Islam dietary laws for is Law and Judaism, no dietary specific laws really, I mean for Christianity. Right, So even within a similar clustered like family of religions, let's say like Abrahamic, there's still wildly
different in terms of their claims about ultimate reality. And even salvation, what's required. It all comes apart to my point. Once you start to read look.
At I find I find the idea compelling, and it's almost as if we're here different people are here for different lessons, And I find what you're saying to be very parallel with what Buddhists would say. I'm sure you've you've found that yourself right now. You know they would agree with you, that people might be more suitable for a different religion or a different path, if you will.
Yeah, I think that Buddhists are pretty generally open minded, right, even a dialogue with the sciences, or not even just other religions. So with like consciousness studies.
And as you put it to the the experiences of past students and the writings of past practitioners is a real important aspect of the study of Buddhism.
I mean, we're in a world of comparison, so everyone wants to like, Okay, let's just compare all these. If I want to play the comparison game, I can cherry pick, you know, and make it seem like all the religions are the same. It's not hard, but you read the whole text like we're saying and all these other things, and then you realize, Okay, if we do our full due diligence, we can see that you can contrast these
things very easily. And that's a good thing because it shows the way to dialogue to actually enrich your spiritual life. Is what I'm claiming in the book in Religion Reality and to bring in the white Head piece if Lisa is that in process theology, there is this notion of a sort of multiple philosophical ultimates or religious ultimates, so it's not like it's just God or something that creates
ex mihilo everything else. So Whitehead's philosophy is like pluralistic enough that it provided an initial framework to how you can like match up the different religions to some of the aspects of reality the white Head's talking about. And what I did in the book is I expanded upon Whitehead and added, like he has like maybe two or three you could say three, and I added a couple more.
I basically made the claim that there's like five distinct components to ultimate reality according to the religions if you look at all of them, and that you need all five because if you don't have all five, what ends up happening. You have to collapse the function of one of those five back into the remaining three or two or one. So like a lot of people that collapse
everything into God. Right. God's all powerful, all knowing, necessary for you, all this stuff right, And when you do that, you end up with a ton of other philosophical problems like the problem of evil just for one example, or free will or whatever else.
So did you want to You're gonna say something, Lisa, though.
Yeah, I was.
I was going to ask how that kind of LinkedIn in you with your paper with Penrose and the CCC theory of cosmogony. I think it was pronounced.
Yes, okay, that the article that you're read that makes more sense because that one is available open access. That's not actually the one that's on like the sort of like Satanism material. It's a different article, okay, But I mean happy to touch on a second, which is that so I also do work in religion and science. Even to tying what I was just saying, I said, there's five components that make up altern reality is the claim in this book, physics, chemistry, biology. It's not just about religion.
They are focused on one or more over, sea of these five as well. So it's a book that encompasses both religion and science, right and religious pluralism. Now, to tie it into the article you're talking about. One thing that's been frustrating for me when you go to conferences is that when you're talking about religion and science, it's religion versus science, right, it's just basically Christians versus atheists
or something like that. It couldn't be more born to show up at these things and here are the same arguments for decades.
That's so static. I'm surprised that it's still that it's still the main emphasis.
I'm surprised too, and I can't hand. So that's what this article is about, where I it was definitely a weird presentation. I'll tell you that people were like they liked it for sure, but it was not expected because essentially what I tried to do in this article is I said, look, I'm going to assume that scientists are
right one hundred percent. I don't. I don't believe that personally, but I'm like, I'm going to grant you all of your assumptions as a physicalist or materialist scientists that all there are atoms in like fields, right and void type of thing. So I grant the assumptions of mainstream science, and what I try to do is show that if
you extrapolate way, way, way into the future. I mean we're not talking like thousands of years, we're talking about the Earth might be gone like way into the future, that there are statistical anomalies that all of a sudden become very relevant. So, for example, when you think of entropy, entropy is viewed as this law, right that essentially that a system's going to tend towards disorder from a more ordered state, right. But it's not really an absolute law.
It's a statistical law. I mean, if we had all the molecules in the room that I'm in right now and it was a closed box, eventually a configuration we already have before is going to come up. A bunch of different configurations will come up. Right. So the idea is that you can actually have a god like being spontaneously developed. I mean, I don't want to get into the complexities of really like how that happens, but that's what I try to get at was showing how like
even mainstream science can have implications that sound religious. Mainstream like physics, not only just wild theoretical stuff. That's kind of what that was. It's based on Boltzmann brains. If you ever heard of that, a Boltzmann brain, No, well,
I don't know. It's kind of yeah, it's an outgrowth of what Again, mainstream science would suggest that eventually you're going to get to a situation where you have all these particles moving around, bouncing around, creating configurations, and that you'll have them combined and have a brain spun like a human brain, spontaneously formed like out in the vacuum space.
It obviously wouldn't last for more than a second or two, but on a physicalist point of view, if it had the exact configurations of like of atoms and neurons that's in Nick's head right now, then Nick wouldn't be able to distinguish whether he's you know Nick right now on this podcast or it's all just like essentially fake low memories that are in this this spontaneously formed brain. It's it's somewhat based off of like a twist on that thing. M hmm, that's probably too deep of a rabbit hole.
Does it does it speculate?
Does that theory speculate beyond like the forming of a mind, like a car could form too.
Is that.
So? So anything is possible. If it's possible, it's going to happen, is basically yeah.
Yeah, so there's a tesla to whatever, right as well? So, but even the whole universe could spontaneously collapse that down into a much lower state of you know, of entropy spontaneously. It's just people don't only talk about this stuff because they want to talk about it again as they're like absolute laws rather than statistical, but they're not a lot of them, and then that changes things. Who cares really
about it? It was just that it was a way to try to at least spark discussion, you know what I mean, something different at these conferences where we're not just talking about like a Christian God versus an atheistic scenario. I couldn't handle being there.
Well, even atheists they all have a different belief you know, I mean, they the common ground is that they don't believe in a god. But some of them actually say they just don't have proof enough proof for God, you know what I mean?
That's true, Mike. Okay, let's actually if you don't mind brieford on atheism I had some interesting professors at Claremont. One of them was the guy who owned Skeptic magazine, so he's one of the more well known neo atheists, Richard Dawkins in that group, Okay, And what I found was that when you talk to these people privately, they're a lot more open to alternatives, but when the camera's on, when the camera's on, it's like you're all fing idiots,
you know, sort of thing. So it's and most atheists when I talk to them in my classes. And I'm not against atheism, by the way, I could care less of what you are, it doesn't matter to me. But I don't think many atheists have earned the title of atheists. That's what I'm saying. They've earned the title of a Judeo Christians.
That's what they are, or an agnostic, not even an atheist.
Yeah, very wise observation.
Yeah, because they think me I refuted the primary arguments given by you know, Christians for the existence of a God, when really they haven't even done that. They've only shown that there's a discrepancy where you can't hold omnipotence with omnib benevolence. At the same time, it's so they haven't even fully destroyed it. But anyhow, they go ahead.
If you were, if you were finished, I wonder, Daran, that's excellent observation. I've noticed that too. It's almost like the atheists are even more closed minded than the monotheists at times. I wonder to that point, maybe, and maybe aside from that, what is the essence of the Abrahamic religions or monotheistic approach in this?
Uh?
You know, what is their summit if you will, in comparison to the other summits that one might study.
Good question, So their summit is a creator God, right, They're going to focus on like a supreme being that can instill order in value into the world, into the system basically, I mean to make it as short, I guess as possible, Whereas, say, you know, a Buddhist might be focused on a totally different component, say something like the aliavishnana or storehouse consciousness, where they're talking about how all information or memory might be like woven into some
aspect of the fabric space time or some or outside of space time even and that might be a different thing, see than just talking about this being that's trying to provide order in the system, or I mean another way to look at is there's a disordering element. Might it's sort of like a chaotic randomizing element in the world we think about more quantum mechanics, and there's certain religions that might focus more on that, or certainly science various
sciences thatocus on that. So those are maybe I don't know, a couple of examples come to mind, but yeah, the Christians are definitely focused on the the God peace right as a supreme necessary being type of thing.
Yeah, what what was some of the reasons why? Uh, you got those that that feeling that that that they that that's what they feel is that one supreme being.
I mean, I think that's all they talk about. I feel like that's all they really are writing about. And I and I can tell you this much too. If you try to modify that theology, they get real pissed, real quickly. So, for example, process theology again let's bring that in. Process theology does modify the more traditional like Christian theology. For example, process theology states that God is not onnipotent, God is maxi potent, basically the maximumly powerful.
But that shift opens up a whole new option and they'll state that God is not omniscient, but is knowing only of all things that are possible to know, but not knowing the free decisions you might make in the future. Say, Okay, that makes sense, so that's why that's okay. So to your point though, sorry, So for Christians, if you were to propose what I just said to a Christian, they're gonna literally tell you that's not a God worthy of worship.
So therefore I reject it. Why the only God worthy of worship has to be omnipotent, right, OMNITIONI I don't know, but seems to be the case because that's what they all seem to push for. But whatever, No.
No, yeah, And the reason why I asked that is because when I when I read the Bible, I've read many different versions of the Bible. I actually have an eighteen seventy three version that I'm going through right now, And the personalities within the Bible of these gods are all different. Neither one of these guys have the same personality, and one as quick to anger one of his own is a jealous god. One of them will be a
loving God. And unless that individual has a split personality exactly, then you know that these guys that are represented in our Bible have the same traits as us humans.
It's literally the same traits as us.
We see ourselves as gods and they see us, you know, as whatever they see us as. But I don't think. I think when I talked to some Christians, I back some you know, why do they always talk about the One God? Because that's something you mentioned. When I think of Christianity, the only thing I can think of is how good that guy, or how Jesus wanted everybody to be. Even if he was, you know, somebody who didn't just certainly deserve.
Empathy or care or something.
He made sure to forgive people and say, you know, try to be a better person and look within yourself and you can do all good things, do you? And all this that and the third and even at the end when he was suffering, he even questioned God.
You know.
So it makes me understand that, you.
Know, every individual that's looked as a deified individual in the Bible, they have the same traits as every human that I've ran into personally in my lifetime.
And I'm pretty sure you guys probably have too.
I mean that how many Christians do you know that followed Jesus. I don't know too many.
No, I still don't know any that still sacrifices animals to this day.
Well, yeah, how many Jewish people? Yeah, following what's in the you know, the Hebrew BVLE and the Torah. None, hardly some but very few, I'm sure. But yeah, I mean I agree with you Jesus's message versus what Christianity became as an institutionalized religion or hard to reconcile. And why is that Let's go back to Platinis for nick Rie or back to all you know why because they end up putting all the Platonic or Greek philosophy with
their ideas of perfection. See like these omnis, that's all like Platonic form sort of perfection.
Stuff.
I'm not gonna say crap. So it's and then yet and yet they're against Pagans. But it is, you know, it's just it's dumb if you look into the history enough, I think Jesus. I love Jesus's message because I think even from an we could talk about even from like an Olkholt point of view, which is like he's trying to put you in a lifestyle that if you were to live that lifestyle, it's a lifestyle. It's extremely difficult and intense. And how do you create a phase transition
in physics? Right? How are you going to move something from like ice to water to steam, temperature and pressure. If you don't have that, then you've got nothing. So he's not talking about faith right in the way of like how the Jewish people are talking about the time, which is like a contract, like a legal contract. I follow what you said, you give me the land and
the descendants. Right, He's not talking about that. He's like talking about a much much harder form of faith and poverty and all these things, and if you were to live it, it would presumably create a soul transformation. Alchemizers.
His his internalized esoteric lessons are profound. Right when you when you take the religiosity out of it, it's it's very individual meditative empowerment.
M absolutely so. I mean I have nothing, I've never had anything against it. I do have something against the prosperity gospel and these American media churches.
I was gonna say, it's often with the monotheism, it's like one way to perceive God, as you mentioned, with the financial pursuits. It's like that's their perception, that's their lane. And then and they all, you know, all the different monotheism, they're all doing worshiping the same God, just in their way.
Sorry, Lisa, no no, I always agree with the megachurch comment.
That's all.
I mean, how many times you need to say and worship God or money? It doesn't really suggest that God is money. But then again for Makature it kind of is so.
Well, well, I was just saying this earlier Robert Alter that reminded me of the Hebrew Bible that he translated the Hebrew Bible, and I remember reading, like in the in the notes little section that he has in there, he says, the first time that gold is actually mentioned or even thought of, is when it has an association with the number six sixty six, six sixty six, and
gold had had had a relationship. And what's interesting about that is that you can see that our whole types of civilization was to look like, look, what was looking for some type of gold or some type of metal, and that became a monetary gain.
And that's what it is still to this day. You know, the templars in the who was that? Uh, Jesus.
I can't even think of their name right now. They come to me for a second. But but yeah, basically just that that the monetary gain within that is the idea of you know, the monotheistic rule, because somebody wanted more than somebody else and they had to push that other person out.
I mean, it gives you power, no doubt, to have money, but it's a really shitty low form of power. I mean, even if you're a billionaire, it's not that amazing compared to other forms.
So it's not the best you can make a true scholar. What was that I tried to compliment you, I said, spoken like a true scholar, okay, a wise man. I wanted to ask in it with your the combination of your different studies, of course them being similar, But have you looked into this psychic phenomenon relative to the experiences and in you know, the realm of the dead that the Egyptians would call it or whatever it might be called, uh, and in relative to the telepathy tapes and the experiences
reference there. I'm assuming you're familiar, but if you're not, just I've.
Heard about I've heard about these telepathy tapes saying recent it's more of a recent it's.
A pretty recent podcast series, and it starts off with exploring the psychic nature of nonverbal autistic children, and it leads into this really strange phenomena of.
These people kind of sensing the presence of spirit, if you will, and and one it just made me want to inquire of you some of the experiences that you might have studied relative to people having experiences with heaven or God or spirits.
So, yeah, I mean, I'm certainly I'm certainly open minded to it, right, and I do think.
Sure, I don't mean to I don't mean to say one way or another. Is sorry, sorry to interject Sirry.
Yeah, I know. So I can even tie a little
process piece onto this year. There's a guy named David Ray Griffin passed away a little while back, who was one of the bigger sort of process theologians in the latter half of the twentieth century, and he did a lot of work on parapsychology and showing, like you know, all the different studies and just how impressive and right, what are the odds to be able to achieve a lot of these results from things that have been done going back to like Duke University, right, and and then
up to a more recent ones with Cornell University and stuff that had been done by this guy that was like Darryl Themes. I can't I can't remember all all the names, but yeah, so, I mean I think there's something to it. I just think that it's so it's a it's a little too like fickle for us too.
With science, it's hard because you want repeatability, right, So I think it's real, but it's to be able to achieve it with certainty or something, right, Like every time that's where I think you're just it's just not happening. Sure it is someone, but it had not happening for me.
It's tangible in the sense that it's mental and thought experiences, but that's not tangible really, right, Like, I mean they can be measured to a point, but or it's not repeatable.
Let's let's even go back to the Jesus thing. It's like, if I reach some very rare state, maybe I tap into psychic right phenomena. But unless I'm in that, unless I'm able to maintain such a like peak experience level state, maybe then we can't do it. And so I feel like that's the trouble. It's like you're trying to run an experiment and how many people are you going to test at that moment in time when they tap that
level of right, like spirituality or something. It just seems hard to do, but sometimes it has happened, I think, and that's why you get results. That's my take on it, I guess.
So what was one of the more powerful lessons that kind of causes a paradigm from that book of the bringing the lessons from the experiences they wrote?
Oh, you mean like the for like the indies.
Well, I'm sorry if I'm confused, but yeah, you mentioned accepting their experiences as being real and then you know, getting getting lessons out of that instead of debating.
Yeah, so a couple of things that came out of that. I mean the big ones are of course, like the life review. And it's an obvious way how you can incorporate a life review into like a daily reflection. It's something really simple, right, like a daily life review type of.
Scenarios in a neo platonic or platonic practice too.
Yeah, it's not like that's anything too new. I mean, maybe tying it into the NDE thing but even Plato, by the way, records one of the first indies. I don't know if you guys know that in the Myth of Earth, there's a soldier who dies and it's on the funeral pire or something like that, and he goes into this very elaborate NDE experience. So I quote a
lot of it in the book. I mean, I don't remember the details the moment, but anyhow, life review would be one thing came up with a I came up with an exercise that I thought was pretty good that I called the heart or beat a truth that involve like a basic yoga pose that I thought was kind of cool that came out of some of the indie stuff. It's hard to explain without visuals because some of them require, like the exercises that came out of it, the tools,
the spiritual tools that we made. I wrote. I wrote that book. So yeah, but a life review is like the easiest thing I guess the state.
But not the daily review. You said, right, the daily review. Yeah, I like to do a morning intention and daily review, not obsessively. But I guess I might be accused of being obsessive, but that I find is a helpful kind of layout and practical out look at the day.
Yeah, I totally agree with you. It's a good it's a good simple practice. I mean, I think once, so I guess I could try to explain I haven't thought and so long, so I want to mess it up. But one exercise that was at least I'd never seen before anywhere else. I guess you probably never none of you would have ever heard, so I'd like to think
I made it up. But then again, we were talking earlier about how everyone thinks they made something up and then they got it from somewhere else, right, So I don't know, but you can tell me if you've heard it before. So it would involve at the end of the day before like a life review type thing, lying down on a fairly hard floor and lying on your chest with your legs extended but your right leg in
like a ninety degree angle. So the idea is that like you've got like like a half frog kind of stretch going on the floor, and it puts a little bit of pressure on your heart on the left side by doing that, and so you can feel your heartbeat. If you were on like a yoga matter, just straight on the floor, you can really feel your heart in that situation. And I call it the heartbeat of truth because the idea was that as you do your daily review right at the end of the night about like
the good deeds you practice. Let's say, if you actually did enough good deeds and you slowed your heart right way down, so you kind of meditated before this, even at a slow heart rate like this pace or something, right, if you actually did a lot of good deeds, you would be able to recall them on each heartbeat. But the idea is like the heart even at its slowest,
is like better than the mind at its fastest. So if you try to like make up things like that you didn't really do, you're going to miss the beat, see what I'm saying, because like you, your mind can't even make up some bullshit story fast enough to keep up with that pace. But if you actually did them, you can recall them on the beat. So it's a way to literally like a metric for spiritual progress. But
like becoming a better person. I mean, how exactly I tied into the indie parts and that I have to go into the back and looking at it, that was like a tool spiritual.
That's a really neat tool.
And I love the sentiment of how the heart travels faster than the mind can hear the slowest sorry, can travel at the faster than the fastest mind. And it just reminds me it's way easier to heal the mind through the body than through the mind. Right, However, many different ways there are for that.
So that's something I can give you to tap in my memory here.
So the thing that you were describing the way that the legs would be done, is that kind of like the Hangman card?
Yeah? Kind yeah, kind of, so like you'd be looking off to the right, you'd have your arms kind of flat, like in like a goalpost way, and you look off to the to the right, and then your left leg is straight and your right leg is in like a goal post like a ninety degree.
You know.
That sounds like that one tarot card that we was.
Yeah, that's what he was saying, right, the Hangman or whatever?
Yeah, hang man Yeah that one. Yeah, that that one from that show we did the day.
Yeah, like Odin or whatever, right, is kind of in that I think.
Something Yeah there you go, yeah Odin Yeah, see yeah you remember that Nick right?
Yeah? Yeah, Well, so I'm just thinking like that that symbol that he was saying. I don't know why, it just sounds like something else I've.
Seen, and yoga it would be like half four frog. That might not be helpful for anyone, but if you know, like some of like contemporary yoga as like, that's what I guess it would be closest to.
So the Hangman could be considered that too, though.
I mean, I guess that's the closest thing to the shape.
But because that's so familiar from that coat, that was from that from that town.
What cult are you talking about?
I can't remember the name of it.
Part of any random like Desert Colt.
No, it was it was the two girls that were killed in the woods.
Oh, the Delphi Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Delphi murders.
Yeah, and the terror cards that the guy was explaining about the hangman.
That's why I clicked in my head.
Yeah, that was no association because because.
It was talking about Odin because they had it was yeah, there was like.
Yeah Norse ruins and stuff too, and somebody. Yeah that's why.
Yeah, I think I was at.
Someone murdered people and put them in like Norse ruins.
By the murder or something they were't wear positions and sticks were done kind of like ruins and stuff. It was there was a couple of things going on in the little room.
That's got to be a questional thing too, because it was sticks looking ruins. It's like how many sticks were around. Not to be an a sayer, but it's like there's a lot of freaking.
It's just when when you said, when you was talking about the description on how the legs would be and stuff like that, that that show immediately popped into my head because that was part of the description on how when I believe one or not both the girls were positioned.
Yeah, the only the only reason why that position was chosen for me is because it's comfortable enough and it places the slight amount of pressure on like the left side of your chest, so like it compresses a little bit on the heart so you can like feel that heartbeat, right, you can really hear it, heel it, and it's easier to be the exercise. That's that was sort of the only reasoning behind it.
I don't want to say that they've done it before, but just to point out to the validity of having a posture that's not the same on each side chi gung keelers will put you into postures that are not necessarily that one, but similar in construct depending on your youre around.
Then Oh yeah, I mean I'm sure that the poses, it's not like you know, they're basic poses, right, so you're gonna probably get them in a bunch of different systems. And obviously a lot of these poses in yoga we don't need to go down this rabbital I don't think, but they have no basis in historical Like a lot of these standing poses that you do in a vinyasa flow class, those are one hundred and fifty maybe four
hundred for some of them years old. You know, the Buddha is not out there doing the historical Buddha is not out there doing warrior one to Warrior two or whatever transitions. It's not they're doing seeded meditation, you know type of thing. So like modern yoga's its own little thing. I owned a yoga studio, an opened one, so I mean it was the way into that world up until recently.
When you when you said he probably did a series of martial arts being a prince though right might not.
Yeah, I mean he did. He was a great archer as well, so I'm sure he did. I'm sure. Yeah, he was supposedly the best. Literally, I mean, if you read it, it doesn't sound humble a lot of the things. Basically like he's the best at this, he's the best at that, and he tried all these and they Hey, speaking of your hangman thing, that was a thing from the stremanas in like five hundred DC hanging upside down
from the tree. That's actually a classic yoga technique. It's called these or something, I remember what they called it back then, but yeah, that was a thing. It was done frequently, so standing on one leg or hanging upside down by one leg from a tree, or even two legs sometimes. So yeah, that's wild, weird. I don't know if you guys talk about Satanism.
Yeah, I was just I was just gonna say, so, do you want to get into that? Uh yeah, because we're like an hour maybe keep us like an hour and a half, So I figured give you some time to talk about that if you wanted to.
Sure. So this recent paper I worked on that's kind of called like dark sector gods. The simple idea is this that, like up until recently, most physicists do accept dark matter as being a thing. It's it's the mainstream. The debate is what is it made out of? Like, right, what does it actually consist of? And more recently the there have been good suggestions that you can actually have what's called atomic dark matter, meaning like dark matter that
interacts with itself. And the idea is that if you can have something like this, maybe you could actually have an entire realm of consciousness or other sort of entities that are we don't have access to basically, And the tie in the Satanism, of course, is that like Setianism, Temple said, order of nine angles specifically talk about these isolated intelligences that are in some sort of wherever dark realm.
And I was trying to propose that, like, perhaps it gives a little bit more credence to some of their claims that they've made, not much more but a little. I don't think you need to have criminal behavior necessarily to somehow communicate or tap into this power, but I think you'd have these gravitational ways to try and communicate with it. That's more like physicists answered, but maybe there's something about consciousness, right, If there's consciousness there and we
are conscious, maybe that can be a bridge. That's not a problem. And so maybe you can through ritual or maybe who knows, maybe even through crime, I don't know, or a star game or whatever else things that the order of nine angles might be into. I definitely will say I did not advocate since we're recording, I do not advocate really that a lot of their methodology, but
who knows. It just was an interesting thought to me, and that's what made me write the paper that I thought about, here's some new religious movements that kind of could benefit from some of these new insights and physics. That's sort of the short answer on it.
Regarding regarding that paper that you're saying, because I posted the abstract for everyone to look at, why would it only be through gravitational waves or would it be only through gravitational waves that you could communicate with these entities in the dark matter realm.
Well, in the physics perspective, it's just because gravity is the only force effectively shared at a non negligible level, like between our realm and the dark sector realm, and it is possible to have gravitational I mean, there are gravitational waves, but the idea of us being able to like generate them to have some sort of coded message, like some there is a way you could encode effectively a message, but we're not there yet anywhere near there.
On like the power of physics to like make this sort of device to create gravitation ways in a certain pattern like that it could maybe be picked up. So but that's just like the physics side again. Maybe consciousness studies, right, maybe you you don't need that at all, and you can just tap into them through meditation. I don't know, well yeah, maybe, yeah, I don't know where.
You guys stand on that.
It makes me think that the power of consciousness is moving through gravity.
Yeah, there you go.
Theoretically, that's what I.
Yeah, that's what I kind of look at it as. I think magic is kind of defined gravity in a sense.
That is, what is your take on magic all? Since this is your that's definitely your part.
Of your channel, I guess in the sense that I was thinking of it that way, with against kind of going against gravity, I would be looking at it in I guess like an NDE or the fact that like you can exist into the air or not in your physical body, like your soul could actually leave your your body and that be constrained to being stuck here and grounded.
Yeah, I mean, word, So, how do you think how do you guys think that magic?
If it were, that's just my opinion. I can't say that's roll up?
Well, do you guys? I mean, do you guys think that there's a way to enhance the probability of it some sort of enchantments though or whatever taking effect?
For me?
Actually, words are powerful. I think words are powerful if you using wisely. Affirmations are definitely powerful.
I think you linguistics right, So sorry, sorry, add you please finish?
I was just gonna say, yeah, I think that. I think so because of the simple fact that you know you can you can tuck yourself into getting whatever you want.
Now, that doesn't mean that you can say I'm gonna get a Lamborghini, but a Lamborghi is something that's materialistic that you don't really need.
But if you, you know.
Speak on, Hey, I'm gonna be a better person today. There's a conscious decision to be a better person. There's a conscious decision to make a better choice in some of your decisions that you may take a.
Breath and one of them is good.
For A good example is that as Ethan knows this very well, is meditations just breathing taking you know, if you're angry. I've heard that if you could just take the time to breathe, you know, take that breath for the ten seconds, twenty seconds or whatever, that helps you make a better decision than you would when you're in that fight or flight mode.
Yeah, well said I was going to add on that that neural linguistics, whether as time one pointing out how we talk to ourselves and the others can almost be a magical approach. I was also thinking, Darren, you being a yogi I practice, okay, anti chiat, it's all about dealing with gravity. Tai Chi is all about dealing with gravity,
staying balanced even in uh oppositional experience or situation. So then, and what you said made me think and dread the idea that we're going to be fighting gravity even after.
This realm.
I just.
It's a fun thought. Where do you stand on it, Lisa?
I think Nick, you were you saying something I wanted to hear your final thought on that.
I don't remember. Sorry, I don't know, I said last.
Okay, well maybe this will will help you jargon.
So Nick and I have.
Spent numerous discussions because I've always asked him like, what is this?
What is that?
I come from a more academic, scientific based, but you know, basic research type, So this whole realm is new to me, and I am trying to be a sponge and learn everything. But in a lot of the discussions with Nick and during his definitions, to me, it seems like magic or mysticism is the bridge between science and religion, science and spirituality,
science and spirituality, and so magic is the bridge. Like if you watch the the what is it the Disney movie Coco, the rainbow bridge that connects the afterlife people and the people that are on this realm, I would think that's magic, and that it somehow allows whether it's good or bad, whether it's white black, it allows for that connection.
So let me ask you all this. Do you think that the information that you would be manipulating one way or another to create a change in reality, that you think that information is woven in space time itself somewhere some way shape or form, and you're accessing it and altering it, putting in some code or whatever you might want to look at it using a sigual. I don't know whatever, right, But or is it spacetime itself not fundamental?
If you will right, and that there's you and you're somehow accessing something outside of space time that then gets programmed. If you will somehow back into space time and some projection or something.
Well, I don't know what I'm doing necessarily, but what I will sometimes envision is accessing the power of one particle to manifest a butterfly effect and keep it rolling towards the idea I'm trying to encompass. Other times, I will implore the universe that it's merely doing what it wants by doing X.
So are you trying to say that you convince that it's already the case that it is that like basically to like alter the memory.
If it is ever something that I, you know, put forth to be real, I make sure that it is in alignment with universal values, if you will, to be broad in general. And and I'll kind of you know, charm charm the universe.
Okay, so you have so there's a limitation on what you would be willing to.
Oh, I would never manifest anything negative. And I don't think that you know, that's a good idea. Just karmically energetically, and I don't think the universe really wants to help anyone do that. But I don't know magic in total. There is obviously black magic, but you know with that is you know there are costs. So yeah, I like to if I'm going to use these ideas, change one particle and set off the domino effect or the butterfly
effect and and go from there. Or again, just if it is something I'm trying to put forth, make sure that it's in alignment with with things, you know, and that that's how it could manifest.
Right.
That was interesting.
Yeah, I don't know where I stand on the on a lot of the dark are black versus white, you know, spectrum of magic or whether it's all just shades of gray?
Right, Yeah, I think harder to start defining that. I mean a lot of times the way I try to say it is the difference I guess would be like if I if I was to go into a meditation and some breathing techniques and try to have that I guess ND or if I was to do a ritual and create a talisman to try to get to raise up my job. The one where I had the NDE I would say was white magic, and the other one
was black magic. I'm affecting the world outside of myself now and I'm trying to bend something to my will. I'm just affecting me when I have a conversation with God to leave the body.
But how could we ever know any of our even good intention changes. Let's say they were right, So how could we ever really know? Playing off ethan your butterfly? So you know, a sensitivity to initial conditions is that of how can we ever know? Like some other ramifications, right, especially if everyone in a white heady and process thing is they use a certain called prehending. If somehow like we're basically internalizing what other people have experience and thought.
It's a great it's a great question.
I think that's kind of what I was saying, is that I try to make sure maybe that it's even not for me, right, Like if I'm going to change a particle and set it off, it's going to be in the defense of someone, right or maybe right. That's an example where it's like you're all right, there's always like, well, are you sure that person was worthy of defense or whatever?
There are there are certain situations that it's there are you know, morally correct choices, But you're right, especially if it's selfish or not even selfish, but just self centered. It could definitely have some black or gray, even if you think it's it's white.
I got a quick anecdote for you on this. You guys might like if you don't mind here, this was me versus seventy five witches at a conference. It's quite the experience. It was not the intention to be me versus anything. I was invited to speak on a very specific thing like how could process for loss? How can you how can it explain occult concepts and magic, like if you were to plug it into like the processed philosophy paradigm. That's what they just wanted me to present on.
So that's what I did. And they didn't like it at all because this that lady who was the keynote speaker, who I will not name because you will know her probably this World of Witches. But she was basically like, that's just you basically just gave a recipe for black magic. That's all this was. This is like a presentation on a recipe for black magic. And I was like, correct me if I'm wrong. Your presentation had to do with like love spells, and I'm like, so, what are we talking?
Like this person doesn't love me, but I'm going to do X, Y and Z to alter this situation, take away their will somehow, Like, how is that not falling under the definition.
Of that's a great great example of how you know, if it's I it's selfful, it's kind of at least borderline, if not more so.
Yeah, So, I mean it's just a good example of how like it's easy for a lot of clothing to like frame it. It's certainly not you I have you're saying ethan, but like a lot of people might try and like carve out a fine line I think between the white and black side of stuff.
I like that. I like how you put that. I should have said love spell instead of a raise before my job, because I would write back. That's a good example though. That is interesting, that's funny shit, that's like, I mean, that's I mean, like what I was saying before about that type of magic. I mean, I would tell you the truth. I mean, I guarantee you probably ninety nine percent of everything that those people there are doing,
if especially if it's like probably like and based. It's probably like all technically, it's all just trying to get people to do what the fuck you want.
That's the vibe I got, or obtain something a money spell or something, right.
Yeah.
Yeah, well yeah, it's all like selfish shit. Yeah.
Almost sacrificed his own son, remember that.
Yeah.
Yeah, it wasn't even God who told him to stop. It was an angel that came and told him to stop.
So that angel would have tripped and failed somewhere I think wouldn't be here.
Yeah. I do want to say, in case there's any Wickens listening, I do think there is value in that stuff. I just think it's just like every other thing with occultism and magic, it's misunderstood. Let's put it that way.
Yeah, I mean that's why I'm misinterested in I'm interested in it, but I'm interested in it on right on, like the mechanics of it and what what actually might work, and not trying to maybe sometimes like have some like moral wrapping around it, like a wick end thing, this threefold or turn or whatever they've got right, Yeah, yeah, that what it is.
If you do something bad, it comes back to your threefold.
Yeah, karma times three. I guess we can call it type of deal arbitrary, random thing they threw in.
There was there anything specific that she said, like, what is your take on Why they deemed it black magic?
I think because of the fact that I was trying to like just it was it was putting it in this new system, and the way I was talking about it as more just like this is how to make things work, as opposed to ever suggesting like you shouldn't do this part though, or you should do that, or I guess maybe they didn't like, you know, they didn't like that that I didn't have some you know, threefold law of karma type of thing wrapped into the speech.
Basically, well, lavendary.
There was probably a lot of crystal yeah, I'm sure, and some of the other speakers stuff going on. It is very new ag.
Yeah, that's what I was getting. Assume.
I've dealt with a lot of that yoga world obviously too with like cold I've definitely had some cult experiences.
The SoCal yoga world, right, that's oh yeah, yeah, I'm like.
Ten miles away from a lot of them if I go south or north. In the yoga world is certainly a huge breeding ground for all that stuff right, and and for the occult, like say, like people kind of dabbling right their way in, but they don't think that, you know, they think they're doing whatever with crystals or oracle decks or whatever the hell they're doing.
Just a way to sell art. Uh, some thing I wanted to ask you. I'm not putting you on the spot here because it's like, Oh, I wonder if this guy's into weird, creepy shit.
Weird?
Is there stuff that maybe that like when it comes to the occult or the esoteric or whatever that maybe you are into. You you kind of study on your own, but you haven't actually like put into books or done a paper on you know, is there like your own interests that you're kind of like delving into just for yourself.
Yeah, there is actually and this kind of will just tie in actually off of this whole yoga discussion, so contra without getting in too much detail on what that is, it's there's something called neo tntra, and neo tantra is definitely like this whole like contric sex how to improve your sex life sort of stuff that you've probably heard before in books or whatever that I have an issue with that because there's a lot of Charlatans in that particular space, like you know, like let's go to p
So what I've been working on lately is I have a really really strong background in the texts and like the methods and the why of TNTRA and also like different yoga techniques, had a lot of good mentors and stuff too. It like STSU one of the main guys in the world, like contract studies. So what I've done, like currently my current book project is I've created this entire system that I'm looking forward to sharing with the world and book form and also through podcasts and things.
But I want to do that when I share a lot of it, I want to do with my partner, my life partner, and also that I've worked the book with her. Her name is Summerlin Harrington. She has like an MA from SDSU and Anthropology of religion. But we put a lot of work into this so that people don't feel they need to like have a guru. Like we're in age now where think about it, the age of man was way too long, one hundred thousand years. I don't know however long it's been like Homo sapiens
for longer. Right, the last twenty years, women have risen up, and it's great, but we're entering the age of AI machines, so we need to essentially, I feel like kind of more come together and have ways for human connection, the ways for human connection that aren't going to be like led by some spiritual nut job in Mexico or Costa
Rica right on a retreat. So I'm trying to put together of this system that incorporates any and all elements to the degree that like there's nothing that this creepy guy could possibly teach you at one of these workshops that isn't going to be in this text and you don't need it.
It's like great perspective.
Contric sex and relationship ideas And.
Sorry, I was just saying that's a great idea, but it's like.
A relationship kind of counseling and contric sex kind of ideas or meditative sex coming together.
Yeah. So it's essentially though it's going like a step by step. Like in the West, everything's linear, right, we think every we think in a linear way, so that Okay, I do A to get to Z. But once I've done A, it's done, you know, once I'm off to
def I don't need to reincorporate that earlier step. And so the general principle, like the core principle behind all of this, is that there's like feedback loops more so so like things that might have been done earlier on in the process need to be repeated so that you broaden out the base as you're climbing up to the pyramid right to get higher. There's trouble with the way
of the Western mind. It's like just like this like skyscraper straight line thing, and it's no wonder that we don't achieve more like spiritual satisfaction from sexual states, right, because it's all being done with the wrong intention and goal sort of. And so the whole thing is giving these interesting like step by step but also recurring sort of steps that get brought in to create a sense
of connection. It isn't even about sex only. It's about like we are so disenchanted did in this world, but we're also now disconnected, so we need to have ways to reconnect and not feel like I have to go somewhere and learn from some weird guy and then it goes horribly and now I'm never going to trust anyone ever again you know type.
Of thing traumatized too, Yeah.
For sure. So that's kind of just the basics of it. Happy to talk about it in detail because it's a whole system and it's definitely novel, like kind of like that little heartbeat the true thing where I told you it's like a weird exercise. This is much more involved and it's not something that you would have heard.
I don't want to I don't want to reveal any Freudian slip on my mind per se. But I love the idea of the circulation rather than the linear kind of goal acquisition.
Right.
It's all about circulating the energy, doing it again, doing it, doing the different aspects of lessons and refining them as you repeat them.
Yeah, I mean like I mean as one simple sort of simple sort of exercise, and that it's just one of the little things in there. Some of the stuff is going to come off as weird to maybe the Western mind especially, but like, for example, like a breath
exchange situation would be extremely binding. Like if if say you and your partner or something right, like if your partner exhales out completely right and holds empty and then you are holding a full there, right and then you effectively like kiss for lack of a better turn, right mouth to mouth, where you didn't do a breath exchange, Like that's something extremely intimate, you know, that builds a lot of connection. I mean, that's but only one, one
little piece of it as an example. But that might be weird some people, but hey, weird is fun right as well.
I wonder how much of it is that people are lacking true intimacy, and not sexual intimacy, but actual intimacy, where the connection is where one ends the other begins, and so forth. And when you talk about loops, I think of the toroidal field in that when both come together, the toroidal field has a completely different loop.
So to speak.
It's almost like when you talked about the breath, there's a dualism, there is lack of and full of there and then the exchange. And I don't know why, but I thought like the paper that I was referring to was talking about you had mentioned the consciousness of eventually forming God, and then your other paper that you just recently released, you're talking about how the dark matter, which is opposite of I guess the light matter forms a
dark entity. And so it's like these reoccurring loops of give and take of dualism, and it reminds me of the universe creates things in pairs or dualistic pairs, and you see it all the time, whether it's you know, plant life, animal life, or anything like that. And it's almost like.
The universal rule that you.
Something happens the opposite and something else happens, like the butterfly the Ethan was talking about. And at least within the animal world, there is no right or wrong.
It just is. It's just the way it is.
Yeah, I love that. I mean, yeah, how to bring it to be a cult? How many times do they say make the two one right? You make the two to one and then the one can affect to dissolve into the infinite, you know what I mean type of thing. It's it's in all the text pretty much, whether it's in Western or Eastern stuff.
You know that Nick has covered a couple of times with like the alchemical marriage, the joining of the opposite.
I think, right, yes, we know O t O likes it. Probably had and there might be more appreciation for some of these things. I don't I don't know enough, but.
Like, no, yeah, that would be a probably Yeah, I mean he was cruelly was into looking at that stuff supposedly.
Yeah, so, but but how many people know about the OTO.
Yeah, well they'd be built off just reading your paper and I go into the OTEO at also because again you might be ending up in the weird situation.
You said it.
I didn't, but yeah, there's always there is when you're somewhere else that's true.
Well, then that is like, you know, you don't want somebody else telling you what your experiences too. I think you need to figure that out on your own.
Yeah, it doesn't have to be sexual. A lot of its preliminary stuff way before you'd even get to sex itself. And just those preliminary things if they were done with repetition with your partner and stuff would be I don't know, I would guess it's got to be better than a lot of talk therapy. It's very somatic based, right, rather than all this cognitive. So yeah, but that's all more to come. I mean, like I said, I'm you know, in the future, is certainly more than happy to do that.
I know that summer end, my partner would be also an important resource. Like I don't even feel comfortable talking about it. Solely right as just the male perspective feels like it should be the two of us. But I mean I can speak to it in broad strokes and maybe a couple of specific examples, but it's important to here, I think the female side and perspective on it.
Sure, Uh you got any other thing? Is that? Is that the only thing? Like, uh, well, anything else that you're writing or is that you know? That's it too? Is what you're saying.
That's kind of at the moment, that's sort of the only thing. It's pretty big. I guess project as it is, I published a lot in the last year and a half or things that are coming out, so I got a little little burnout and the things were very as you've seen, bizarre and I don't know, cognitively demanding, I guess, I'll say so happy to have a little bit of a arrest period and knowledge focus on on the one
project the moment. The other thing I am doing is I do have a I do have a YouTube channel called two Truths with an s two Truths channel, and I put out videos every you know, every week or so that look at scientology, satanism, you know, Egyptian rituals, to bring back people from the dead. That's all over the place, like stuff to do with religion and spirituality. So I'm still working on that.
That's interesting.
Yeah, but those are the those are the two big projects the moment.
So yeah, before we wrap it up, do you want to just go over the books that you have written and the stuff that you have out there that's available.
Yes, sure, I mean the book we were talking about mainly today is called Religion in Reality, So that's out there, I mean available on Amazon. If you check it out, I'm sure, just put in Religion Reality or put my name, then you'll find it for you easily. Then Lessons from the Afterlife for a Happy Life is the other one that has the NB you know accounts, and that books good for people I think that want more of like
an easier introduction. If people want more of like the academic or or hearing about a novel way to talk about religion and deal with religious pluralism, Religion Reality is the book for you know, of mine at least, or they want to learn about, like you know, metaphysics and all that. But if you want to have something that's more of like a self healthy, workable system, that's that incorporates a lot of religion but also in your death experiences.
Then the Lessons from the Afterlife for Happy Life, that one's a good starting point. Those are the two main books, yeah, that I've got out.
Welsome. Do you want to let anybody know where they can contact you at or is there anything else that you want to promote before we wrap it up?
Sure, I mean you can anyone can reach out to me at. We're going to love this. Since we talked about Process Theology is at yahoo dot com. Is my is my email? So shows how long I guess been involved with that. Yeah. So, and if anyone ever had any questions on on what that is, I'd be happy
to go into more details too on that. But it's it's a very interesting form of theology for people that are looking for an alternative, something that incorporates religion and science and can also even incorporate all the different religions under its framework. It's a really powerful philosophy. But yeah, my emails Process Theology at yahoo dot com awesome.
Uh. And before we wrap it up now, let the other rejects let everybody know where they can find them themselves out too, Uh, Lisa, anything you want to say.
Doctor Darren, thank you so much for covering the topics that we were pretty much just throwing at random at you, and you were answering so thoroughly. So I appreciate that, Fellow Rejects. Great to be on the show with you again, and thank you Nick for having me on for this guest. And the only thing I like to promote is the
Occult Research Institute dot org. Some of the Rejects Ethan has contributed to the website in literary form content, so if you can find as Theretical Research Institute dot org.
Thank you awesome, Thank you so much, and Tyron.
Hey, Darren, that was actually pretty good. I took a lot of notes.
I'm just looking at, you know, some of the stuff that from your book, the you know, basically the blurbs and stuff about your book, and I'm very interested in now I have them in the cart so I'm definitely going to be reading them probably in the next three or four months.
Very interesting what you shared.
I believe a lot of the same things that you believe in in the confusion on the religions and stuff like that.
I actually do deep dives in that. I do have one question for you.
I've always ask people who study religion this question, do you believe that the New Jerusalem Bible is the most accurate Bible out there for us to understand the Bible?
There's a question for you. So I mean, unfortunately, I don't think we're going to get close to accurate enough to what I want. I mean, I use the Greek, you know, but I think that almost all the ones in English. I guess the new, Revised, Updated, Standard version ever it's called, is pretty good in terms of academic rigor. I'm not as familiar with the one you described, so I don't I wouldn't want to speak to it one
way or another. But I mean, right, the hardest truth is we're dealing with copies of old Greek texts that many of them were fragmentary, right, that they had to kind of harmonize to even put together the Bible. So that's a whole story, right, and journey in itself. I definitely would advocate people getting a Greek it's called interlinear or something I might be called version, where you've got the English, the Greek, the transliteration of it and all that,
because I think that's a great reference. There are so many things that are mentioned in the English versions that kind of distort, like the word repentance being a big one coming from medanoia in Greek and like melanoya and Greek doesn't really mean repentance. But seven out of ten English Bibles will have it as repentance. And that's pretty important because John the Baptist, Jesus Paul all talking about this term at annoy yet. So if it's being translated incorrectly,
that's like their whole mission statement. That's just a good classic example. But I can't speak to the version you are are talking backsite. I really don't know.
I appreciate it. Yeah, Nick, thanks man, this is very informative.
I appreciate you for letting me have on everything that could be found on me is at my Westside rebirth at the word dot com.
Awesome, Thank you very much, man, Man, Yeah, we got Ethan Indigo is going.
On, Darren.
That was awesome. Thank you again, as leads to point it out. Thanks for answering all our questions that your work inspired are super interesting and thorough great research that you've done. Yeah, Ethan Indigo on all the usual social media and at least pointed out a cult Research Institute dot org coming out with new writing here and there. And Darren again, thank you that was really interesting and inspiring.
Well, I want to thank all of you on it was a really fun conversation. Oh yeah, so I got me on.
No, that was great, Thank you very much, Darren. Sure, I'll probably get you off for the NDE and maybe talk about some other stuff. Definitely got interesting.
You guys want to talk contra ever too, so we can go maybe i'd get Summerling on. We can go deep dive on that if you want to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm definitely definitely show you here, like I said, get you back on and talk about other things. Uh yeah, and I will uh if you want down after the show. If you want to send me any links for me to share, I will put those down in the show notes for everybody. Uh but yeah, thank you very much. Again, I thank everybody who jumped on the show and joined me. I
appreciate you making time and joining us. And that's the end of another Recault Rejects and until the next one, everybody be well. Alita