You see, something's going to happen.
What's going to happen?
What help? Welcome to the Occult Rejects this episode. You got a bunch of us back again. Third show for the day, Can't Stop, Won't Stop, something like that, And today I got a bunch of rejects with us and we're going to be talking about occult and symbolism. That topic was brought to you by the Headless Giant, and thank you very much. Hells. I thought it was a great topic. But before we let Headless take this over,
we will have the other rejects introduce themselves. And I got with me the occult reject mad scientist Lisa herself. What is going on?
Three for three? We've done three episodes today. Yes, we have doing well and I'm very excited to be doing something with just the rejects kind of partial to that and just kind of thrown around, you know, our noggins on the hand symbolism. So thank you for inviting me on, Thank you, fellow rejects, and apologies for me interrupting you here in the future of this episode. And the only thing I'd like to plug is a cult Research Institute dot org and you can find me on Twitter on so lease Lisa.
Awesome, thank you very much. Hey, we got my man jin Freda, Ninja Ninja whatever, friud of something else. I don't know, good subing.
What's up? Nick, thank you so much for having me on. I just want to echo what Lisa said. The Rejects episodes are my personal favorite as well, not that I don't obviously love a guest.
I do.
That's My show is a lot about guests. So but I come on here really just talk to you guys. So for me, that's for me. So I just want to say so, I just released an episode with Toby Choppel Strange Angles, episode seventy two, so it's kind of an axel. We'll call it an episode for me, so a big deal. And obviously Nick made the connect for me, so thank you so much.
Nick.
Obviously owe that to you, mister ninety three. And yeah, so and then obviously we Nick and I and Matt Mara from The Gray Lodge came on and we did a Kabala episode just the other day on Binna and Dath, which was really cool and really good. I listened to it back and a lot of people really liked it, so it's a great job on that and and Solar co hosted. I should have said sorry Solar Exile, who was on this show to doctor with doctor Stephen Flowers.
He co hosted the episode with Toby Chappel with me, So shout out to him one hundred percent because it's obviously he's co hosting with me on the episode. So yeah, if people want to follow me and check out those episodes Threshold Saints, at Threshold Saints IG and twitter x and then at will cong Reborn, w UK and g Reborn. That's my personal account and there's a lintry and Nicholas throws it in the show notes, so just check that out.
And uh, Threshold Saints wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify and Speaker all that.
So thank you guys, awesome, thank you. Eh we got tyrone. What is going on?
Sir?
All right?
What's going on?
Everybody?
Hi?
Everything that you can find on me is on my website, Rebirth at the word dot com. I'm glad to be able to participate in this discussion. And if you are interested in reading my book, Journey through the Origins of History, it was a bestseller on Amazon.
Appreciating it of course, thank you, appreciate you, sir. Yeah, we got Tim Constantine joining us. What is going on, sir?
Hey good? How are you good?
Good one?
Yeah, I've got a Sunday show over at Cult of Conspiracy. That show is called Conspiracy Garden and my main show. The best place to find me is excuse me sixth Sensory podcast on all the major platforms.
Thanks for having me.
Again, of course, no, thank you. And we got my man, the Headless Giant. Thank you very much.
Man.
I appreciate this topic and everything. So let everybody know who you are and take it away.
All right. You can find me on exit on YouTube at the Headless Giant. I can be reached by email for my Thursday night show. About your emails for our listening pleasure, So you can email me at the Headless Giant podcast at gmail dot com. And this Thursday we're going to be doing it again, so I hope to see your email there and we'll get on with that. Also tomorrow I've got the Trialogues with my boy Ethan and with Ricardo, so that's going to be an awesome time.
We usually just come together and throw together a show and it seems to work a lot of people like it, so check it out. And today I wanted to get into hand symbol. So if you've been watching The Rejects for a while, you know that we try to do some sort of anchoring where we're taking meaning from the body and looking at the occult symbols that all match
up here. And to me, the hand is like one of these ultimate symbols of magic and power and humanness really, you know, because our hands look way different from most of the stuff that we're surrounded by, even by monkey pause. I mean, these are very uniquely human in terms of our own way of perceiving it. So to start off with, I think that it's important to know that there's a
fractaline level to the geometry in the hand. Right, So you've got five fingers, right, the pentagram is five points, and the pentagram can be infinitely scaled up or down based off of the golden ratio, and just so happens, you can find a lot of golden ratio in the joints around your hand. So this thing is like our connection to that greater spiral fractality that we see happening with a lot of these geometric shapes. So it's hands creating hands. Really, that's what humans are doing. This is
how we interact with our environment. This is the idea of us being able to change our situation, us being able to build in a situation. These are all very important when it comes to magic. And so one of the hands that I like to think about a lot is the hand of Sebasios. This thing has got so many symbols packed into it, just absolutely amazing. You've got the cave where Zeus was nursed back to health. Down on the wrist, You've got it looks like a pan
right there in the middle where the palm is. You've got a pine cone on the thumb. You've got a snake that wraps around the whole thing and then comes up between the two fingers. And you could tell the pose that it is in is in all the pictures of Jesus Christ as well as the saints, you know, pointing up towards Heaven, pointing down towards Hell. This mysterious figurine was most likely put on top of a pole so that everybody could see it. Right. This is like
the idol's idol. It's got all of these different mythologies, it's all pressed together into one single figure, and this was the hand of Sebazios. Now Sebazios is an interesting god because it comes through this Thracian line. Sabazios was always depicted as a young sort of strapping man on a horse with a spear, and he was the son of either Zeus in Persephone, which was sort of a
later interpretation, or Kyberlei through herself. Right, So Kyberlee is kind of like this virgin priestess, so he was either self born through Kyberlei, or he was kind of born through Zeus and Persephone, the god goddess of the underworld. And that union of Zeus and Persephone is pretty interesting too, because this really goes into Dionysus, right. So Dionysus's original form is this character called Zagrias, and Zagrius is a god that was supposed to be formed between either Zeus
and Persephone or Hades in Persephony. And there's kind of a disagreement there. Some people say that he's from Olympus, some people say that he was born in the underworld. But this Zagrias character would then be ripped apart by the Titans, and this is one of the first retellings of how mankind came into existence, because what we're said to be is we're said to be gross material or
Titan flesh with divine spark within us. So as the Titans consumed the body and bloe blood of this character Zagrias, it put the spirit into mankind, into this gross material flesh that's so familiar. Well, this idea of Zagrias moves on. After he's shoot up. His heart is then placed into the thigh of Zeus, and Zeus then bursts out with
this new character called Dionysus. And this is the Dionysian cycle, in the first part of Dionysus' existence, and it said that this Dionysian character is like the son of God and the ultimate truth or the ultimate God of this world. And so there's a lot of crossover between these Thracian mysteries and Dionysus and Jesus for that matter. So as you see on that thumb, you can see the pine cone. Well, Dionysus carried a pine cone on his walking stick, and
this is out in front of the Vatican today. You've got that massive pine cone still in existence, still sort of keeping that dian Ician feel to the Vatican, which is almost like a continuation of these Thracian mysteries through Kaibali and all the rest of it. They kind of kept this character, they kind of kept it alive. So
this all comes through the hand symbol. Now, one of the things that I found interesting about this hand symbol as well is the idea in dactyls, and the idea in Dactyls were like these gods of sport, right, the Dactyls of Mount Ida in crete. Mount Ida is one of the holiest mountains for all of Greece, invented the art of working metals into usable shapes with fire. So this is one of the gods. This would be the let me see here, what's his name? It's not letting
me screw it anyways. So Hiphestus is one of these idea in dactyls, right, and then the cory Bante's are also integrated with that too, and the Dactyli are like the five fingers of the gods. Heracles is also one of these five fingers and instigated the Olympic Games. So, as you know, in ancient Greece they love to have these naked Olympic sports, and all of that was actually in service to these id in dactyls. Right, these are
like the highest competitive characters within their pantheon. So anytime they would win a battle, they'd be like, all right, everybody strip naked, we're having the Olympics, we're having games, right, Because this was sort of in service to their gods. As they were expending their energy and showing who is the best out of everybody gathered, they were also establishing a pecking order that was sort of a grand to
them by the gods. So their hyper competitiveness on the sport field also translated into hyper competitiveness on the battlefield. So all of these sports have to do with the will of the gods as it's coming through them, and you can see over and over again these sports sort of take the attention of the population almost as if it's a religious ritual, and you find all the religious symbolism within sport all having to do with, you know, who wins and who loses in these symbolic fights, you know,
proving who's the top of the heap. And if you think about the hands and what they're capable of producing and how related it is to God in this sense, you can kind of see why there's kind of a reverence paid at these different sporting events. How there's kind of an alternate identity created, and the entertainment of it almost brands different areas or parts of the country and sort of gives them a new meaning as well. I mean,
look at the mascots of these different sporting teams. You know, it changes the colors of different regions, and these colors have a huge impact on the psychology of the people experience in that kind of situation. So you can almost use these as a magico religious symbol to influence the population through sport. And that's my presentation on the hand symbolism, at least coming through Greece.
I love the.
Pine combe element to this, and I might be jumping ahead here, but I'm always down and learn more about why the ancients were depicted holding the pine cone. But I'll say this that you brought up Persephone, it does remind me of her in the sense that she was often depicted holding a pomegranate, which is like a symbol for life, death, rebirth, and divinity.
I wrote a book using the pomegranates in the name, so yeah, it is used for like a cult.
Yeah, the orchard of pomegranates.
Sorry, and the whole then I'll cap it off with this. The whole rebirth divinity thing I find super interesting because I think a lot of these kings, these old ancient kings like Oshrabono Paul or Nebu Kenezer even were trying to i'l chemically transmute and achieve some sort of a rebirth that would give way to divinity. They were trying to deify, it seems.
But it all goes back to symbolism.
Tim. Think about where all the apostle Paul set his letters up in Turkey, right, Those are all the Thracian homelands, right, So those are the same kinds of crossover there with his dying and resurrecting Savior, and that's where he's sending his letters to.
Yeah, if I could kind of expand upon the thumb.
I was going to ask you a specifically.
Yeah, Nick and I have had this discussion which is interesting because you've said something about, you know, your rituals as well, not yours specifically, but the rituals that you've participated. So there is engin please this kind of I know you have a little bit of knowledge on this too, in terms of like I believe the body lay lines or reflexology. They believe that the thumb is connected to
the pineal gland. Well, okay, so the concept is that there are specific points on the hands and feet the corresponds with the organs of the body. And the way that it was told to me whenever I was doing acupuncture was that when you were developing in the fetus,
you're developing in a fetal position. So the cells that are used to form the hands or the back of the hand or whatever is closely related to like your chest area, right, because you kind of develop like this, so it's almost aligned or they can feel each other because they almost come from the same area of whenever during fetal development. Please gen correct me if I'm wrong. But so with that being and with that in mind, I believe there is I think it's reflexology, and I
want to say that it's acupunctured too. But they believe that there is points on the tip of the thumb that correspond to the pineal gland, and that if you massage the tip of the thumb, it's believed to stimulate the pineal gland not only in you know, awakening or awareness, but also encourage melatonin production. So I think when you go like to these alternative medicine type institutions, that they do that in order to help like with improving sleep
or promote relaxation and stuff like that. So I do know that there is that.
No, that was great, Lisa. I. So I'll answer in two ways. One is a ton tric way, but it ties in with the yoga way. So the later Yogi's weren't contric but they kind of had an idea of what that was, like magic really, and so they were writing there like knees on half of the yoga their sutras, and so they kind of reformulated because they didn't have all the clues or the keys maybe you could say, so they had to sort of reformulate their broken knowledge
of the ton tric ideas. So there's different ways that you can actually assign in TNTRA. For each finger is actually related to an element, and there are obviously five elements in TNTRA. The thumb is often associated with akasha or the mind, but it can also be like the akashak records obviously, so something like what you're saying, stimulating the memory, simulating the mind, simulating the cameo viae have
like spiritual experiences. So what mudras really are, like this is really great Headless, thank you for bringing that up. Is that mudras really are about the connections between the fingers. You're actually doing a very subtle tontric with this called tontric dancing actually, and you're subtly touching the fingers to each other in the specific movements. But what you're actually doing is you're doing elemental invocations like very yadhe vavee. Actually,
So yeah, that's basically what it is. And that's even how you would do a ritual sodna, is that you would change your mudras depending on the specific timing or grammar within that specific sodna. So you would be activating the different elemental configurations you could even say, and you'd always do air last. So that's interesting because sometimes earth is given to the pinky and sometimes air is given
to the pinky. But it does actually matter. So what I'm saying is the way you formulate it actually changes. So if someone does it one way, it's not going to work for someone else who thinks of it in a totally different way in another way, because it really matters your.
Starting point, Jane, I got one for you. So you know who else was a Thracian? You got it Pythagoras because you keep all the numbers you need right here.
Oh you can use your feet. Yeah, he what are you saying? For sure?
Pathagoras was so huge on that. I mean, you've got the idea of number all embodied inside of these hands, you know, as as your very first starting point within the whole world of numbers. And you've got the perfect symbol for base ten, you know, right there both sides of your body.
Ten and Mason re means perfection, or at least one of them. One of the theories or ideas for number ten.
I think is Zero's a very profound concept. I'm sure Lisa has lots of thoughts on this, but I find I find zero to be a very profound concept, and I actually think it was a very innovative, magical idea. I know a lot of people like, yeah, I just did an episode on the value of number nine with someone who's like, you know, in the order of chrap, so it's but for me, I'm just saying, for me, I prefer a base ten. I think that there's something more interesting and like more. It seems to be it
seems to be more progressive. I'm not using that word politically, but I'm just saying it's like forward thinking magic. It's not backwards looking. This is my perception. But maybe that's wrong.
But well, it could have to do with how they're associated, right, So the base sixes and all the rest of these other systems might have other focuses that they put into their numbering system as part of a body heuristic. You know, yes, that's a possibility.
Speaking about the numbers here, you know, the bottom of a pine, at least some of the ones I've seen, has a Fibonacci sequence. So if you think about it, if it also represents represents the third eye or the pineal gland, you've got the third ie wrapped up in that. I would, you know, wager. But it's like the third eye meets the Fibonacci sequence, which is like the golden
ratio with the numbers, like higher math, higher science. So it's almost like if you see somebody holding that and you're mixing these two concepts of like third eye and higher math found in nature, it's almost symbolic of the human being, like receiving nosis or receiving knowledge, like with this picture you had of there's a pine cone at the person's fingertips. It to me this is symbolic of I don't know, receiving higher knowledge.
Perhaps I just wanted to respond really quick, Tim. So I think that's super profound what you said. And I actually think this goes back to the episode I jested with Nick and Matt which we were talking about Benna Binna. Is that higher math, that kind of higher intellectual thinking exactly what you're talking about. And that perceptual element, that element that's in perception of that higher knowledge is has said. So it's that Saturn Jupiter connection. That's kind of what
makes the world real. It's like we see it, we know it exactly what you said, higher knowledge, and we understand it. All those three things at the same time. Sorry, I had to do kamala and I I apologize.
No, I want to build upon what Jin said because of the kabal and then it maybe think of numbers. One of the things with the thumb still staying around the thumb is that the thumb itself is controlled by nine muscles. Well, let me let me rephrase that. So there are no country property believe there are no muscles in your fingers there. It's only tendons and ligaments, right, and they're connected to muscles, and that's kind of how it works. And it works like in a rope pulley
type system. But with the thumb there are it. The thumb itself is controlled by nine muscles and it has three major nerves. So you have the number ninety three and then there are I believe six potential directions or movements that the thumb can make at the base joint.
So going back to what you were talking about, Jen, you have this three six nine vortex math, you have any kind of it's called the golden ratio, and not three six nine is the golden ratio, but you have all of these types of what we've heard these these things over and over in secret societies or occult practices. These numbers are these orientations happening all again within the thumb. So that I throw that in there as well.
That's really great, Lisa, Like three six nine, like just think about in Kabola. It's a they'nah different and your sod and like good. I always he's nick about this because he always says that he used to listening to David I back in the day, and David Ice talks about the Saturn moon matrix, right, well, that is I mean that he's talking about something fundamentally real in Kabbala, like that is an important kabalistic lesson is that everything
is formed in your mind. So when he's saying it's like a matrix that you're trapped in it, he's not actually talking about like the drix. He's talking about like your kind of consciousness matrix. Like you're saying you're trapped And that's what and that's exactly what those numbers are because six is really the higher apotheosis of all of those things in synthesis. So and very profound thank you.
No no, no, thank you, Jen. And then if we ever get to do the gnostic mass to that one of the things with the pennel and Jen, you kind of drop my memory on this. With the pineal, you can charge your pineal by I think it's a full moon facing north Yeah, so again going back.
To the whole facing the north pole on a full moon charges your pineal glad because that totally makes sense.
So that's that's one of the I guess series out there that potentially you could charge your pineal uh during a full moon facing north. That's I don't know when, I don't know what point. That's all I just remember from reading. But yeah, So going back to the whole lunar thing of what Jen was.
Saying with, Yeah, I think Crowley actually suggested that look at the moon its full.
I'm not sure where I got it from. You told me that.
Yeah, one thing that told me.
You told me that you face north at midnight, and I was like, well, that's interesting because I do know that the pineal is receptive to moon light frequency electromagnetic frequency from the moon, and you can potentially charge it because it can sense it at midnight from a full moon facing north.
Yeah, that goes. Sorry, I just want to yeah, you go, because I'm gonna have a bunch of I want to say.
Okay, I'm just gonna be really quick. I just want to say to jump off. Lisa's point is that that's a really interesting thing that you said about the apex of the moon at midnight, because that is actually in contric astrology, that is what is considered as apex. The true north at midnight is the moon, whereas at noon in tontric astrology, I'm not saying this is real, but I'm just saying in Tontric astrology it's venus, so very
interest are staying kind of feminine. Both have feminine, specifically feminine qualities.
See even at even at noon when you're doing going back to rush, that is something I do want to think eventually cover. And I think from what Lisa is saying and the other stuff, the other prayers, I do think it's to charge up Neil Glenn for sure. But even when you face at noon, when you're facing and you're doing the prayer, you're still even actually including a chick at that time. You're praying to Hathlor. Now I
know that's like to me. I used to sometimes use Hathlor for netsuck anyway, even though I don't know, but I found that interesting how you said a female or whatever venus. And again it's associated you know, this prayer is associated with the female during the day. So if you're into.
Something that's you do charge it at mid day two sorry, tim at mid day at noon you do charge your pennial as well, because at noon, depending where you are on the surface of the earth, you were receiving all of the light in its appropriate ratios of the electromagnetic spectrum.
So yeah, yeah, you've got twelve o'clock noon, and then you've got the twelve phases of the moon. I'm just thinking about the numbers here, and the golden ratio is like one point six something, So there's a six in there if you're thinking about like that.
Yeah.
Yeah, and if you add the one in the eight, you get the nine, so technically it has a six. I'm in there, But I was going to ask, what's this association with Venus because that's was there association with Venus that was mentioned?
Oh no, maybe maybe Jin said something about something about feminine and that reminded me of the prayer at twelve o'clock was also a feminine deity that you pray to. Maybe you didn't say Venus and I fucked that up there.
Well, no, no, I did say Venus. Sorry, Venus. Is that the apex of the north? It's true north at noon, just at that point in the sky.
This is the one idea and it was and it was the first star that you can see in the morning, right.
Yeah, the morning star. It can be the rising and falling star. This is really interesting in contrac nostrology. Actually is that both Mars and Venus can be the rising and falling star, depending or the morning and evening star they switch.
Okay, and those two points in the earth, I mean on the earth is what is is the the switch like literally like light switch to turn on and off your pineal gland is is the crepuscular times or the dawn dusk whatever.
So yeah, I see this as being saturated with divine feminine if we're talking about hath Or and we're talking about Venus, and you know, even even the Bible mentions the morning star in association with Venus, and if you go further into that, I would I would suggest that it's probably associated with an honor, a start day ishtar.
And also Jesus was called some of the morning. Jesus was called some of the morning as well.
Jesus was the child of the north star.
Though really depending on what the translation you want to use, the call in the morning.
Store Yeah, right, And I think it has to do with different parts of the year. And you know, we see that again with Venus, which the morning star part of the year is the spring and then for the summer it goes away and then like fall, winter it's in the evening part of the sky, So there is this dichotomy between when it shows up during the year. So I think a lot of that has to do with the calendar.
One thing I did want to mention too, This was why I said I was gonna talk for a little bit, is because the OTOO fuck it when I do my second degree initiation. Uh, you guys got me thinking of that whole thumb thing. Let me just go back a little bit. There has been times during the initiations where like, I'll just use this same example, I'm already saying stuff, I'm not SUPs. So they'll they'll take a sort and not hit you hard, but they'll tap your waist and
they tell you. At some point after you do the initiation, sometimes like a few weeks maybe a month later, they'll have a class and anybody who's ever done that degree can come in and take the class and they'll kind of go over it a little bit. And normally they'll have like people that just did that initiation kind of come in and say some stuff, and they had said that when they do that sort thing, it was to
activate that chakra down there. Now during the second degree, there's at one point, they give you this stick piece of wood that has a screw on the top of it, and they specifically tell you to put it on your thumb and screw it down until you can't you know, until you can whatever, until I guess you can bear it anymore. I mean, I already from reading stuff I wasn't supposed to read. I already knew what was going
to happen. So I mean, I just did it a little bit and I said, Okay, that's it, you know whatever. But I am like, you're starting to wonder now when they said that they specifically will tap you places and do things to activate chakras. Was that whole thing to do with the whole thumbshit? Were they putting the screwed? Were you screwing that shit down yourself? I don't know. It just it made me think about that when you were talking about the thumb and the panel, Glen in the connection.
Have you ever have you ever heard of the torture technique the thumb screws, right, So it was like a torture technique. They would put you in the thumb screws, which was like this thing that they would put down on top of the cuticle and as they're cranking it down, they want you to confess to certain crimes or whatever. But if they've got you doing that during an initiation, you're putting the thumb screws to yourself.
Yeah, then you know what they this is like shit that they did that they say this is And this was one of the reasons why I was like, what's going on in this place? They lift it up, they show you that it's like a stick and it has the screw at the top. Then when they show you the bottom of it, it was like hollowed out, and they're like, now, if you maybe noticed everything. Basically, what they're getting at is that not everything may be as
it seems. That was the whole lesson to learn from that, because if I would have looked around and sold everything, I would have realized I could have just stuck the whole fucking thing on my thumb and wouldn't have had to turn the screw, you know, some shit like that. You know, so like it was even like it was even weird like that lesson because right before that, I had people push me into a pool and they're telling me, you don't trust my brothers and sisters and siblings, and
now you tell me not everything seems to be. Not everything is as it seems? What fuck you telling me? Now you know what's going on here?
It's like they're planting paranoia.
No, it's like, well, technically, if it's the second degree, that's my third time, and the other two initiations before that they both told me you can't trust anybody in their own way. So I'm like, is this the three times you told me?
Three times?
After this is you're a fucking idiot? Could be something like that. I don't get it, but uh yeah, I just wanted to twist that in there. About that the pine cone on there again, you know, and I said it two or three times light But it's just weird to me thinking about, you know, with that pine cone there and possibly connected to your paneal glend there's a lot of stuff I think Croley does that shows penal glenduff.
Well, if you think about it from the Greek perspective, you know, you've got the idea of Prometheus and this thing that made us uniquely human, and so the thumb is one of these things that make us uniquely human as opposed to one of the other animals. It sticks out. It does a lot of stuff that we tell it to all these other paws and stuff. They can't, you know, really operate the thumb, so it you know, it's one of these uniquely human traits in the hand that I
think they were trying to glorify. It's like, this is the thing that gets us close to God is because this makes us different from everything else.
To build upon that, I will say, the opposable thumbs. I wish raccoons didn't have them, but that's neither here or squirrels, neither here nor there. But one of the unique things with thumbs is that only humans and primates can touch the thumb to the other fingers. So that's that's definitely a unique characteristic within the hand thumb finger
I guess situation. But the one of the things that I kind of wanted to insert, just kind of tangent the amount of population that's left handed versus right handed. I always found that to be really odd that it's like it's like ten percent of the population the entire
population is left handed. Well, you're told kind of or guided to be right handed in elementary I remember that, But for the part I believe it's only a ten percent percentage of the human population that is left handed, and then like even less than that, like it's one percent. That's ambidexterrous. I thought that was that was something like you have it in multiples of ten.
So well, sort of a riff off your point, Lisa, since Nick brought up the sorry headless, I'm just gonna go really quick. This is sink foil. So I thought you would like this, Lisa, simply because this is the one thing I actually contributed to the Call Research Instry in written form is the herb Correspondences. So this is a really important magical herb in both Europe and North America,
for both indigenous people and Europeans. And so its name in French actually means the five fingered hand, sink oil, sink foi, so it represents the hand of Mary. So actually it's there's also an idea in spiritism which I believe also comes from this, and it's the hand of the saints. And you'll see this a lot of Puerto Rican kind of like sance. There's a hand and it will have the five Arisia or the five saints. But
sometimes it's different. It's not always. You know, sometimes people pray like use that can or whatever, and they're not. It's not a risha, it's saints. But some people that, yeah, that is so. But basically it's that there are five roads for every person when they're born, and so it's the they say, you can't open all five roads in one lifetime. That's something I've heard people say. But this plant is the divine kind of savior, s hand of merry plant, so it opens all five roads for you.
So and that's exactly what it's used for. It's used for luck, love, job, money, and success, just general success. So it's a it's a really great thing. And you'll see in a lot of older recipes for van Van oil.
You know.
And it reminds me of the five pedaled flower that was found imprinted on lavito in Mexico, and it's very symbolic to the michigas Aztec people as well. So it's interesting that you bring that up because it's a five all over again.
Yes, this is a rose too, it's a it's a lesser rose. It's a potent tell us, so it means even the name means potency or potential.
Mm.
Yeah, that's very interesting.
Wow, all right, thank you.
Yeah, I think about like sacred geometry as well, with some of the stuff we've talked about today, like which was big in Egypt. And I only mention that because Osyrus was often depicted holding a staff with the pine cone on it. So I wonder if all this is symbolic of maybe an early form of masonry and building pyramids and building temples in Egypt. So it'd be like sacred geometry in conjunction with g nosis and basically a way of putting the knowledge to use, and I I wouldn't.
I don't know that masonry goes back to ancient Egypt, but some form of it might.
It doesn't, and you're right, I think I think a lot of it goes back to masonry. Like I said, I just finished up my Ananaki presentation. For part of my PowerPoint presentation, a lot of people know who the Samerians are, and uh, when I was doing my research on them, a lot of people will say that they're known as the black headed people, right where they're known as mankind or human or you know something that identifies
you know us as you know a species. But then I read from somebody who is a thirty third degree Mason, and I can't remember exactly which book it is. I have to go look and see which which one it is. I know which value, I know what authors from. I just don't know which book it is actually from. And uh,
he was saying that they're also known as brothers. Well, you know, Masons identify each other as brothers, or at least every time I've come in contact with them, they always that word always seems to pop up.
But they were known as brothers.
Another good example of that is a lot of people know that Inky and En they that they were brothers, right, but there are texts out there which I actually have in my presentation that one could be the father and one could be the son. Sometimes it flip flops which
one was the father and son. So the brother's part stuck out on them, stuck out to me because that's a group of and those were a group of individuals that was in the elite, right, they were higher class than everybody else, and at a time that's what Mason's and some of them probably still think as themselves as today. So it's just amazing that you know the symbolism and it doesn't just go back to the ancient Egyptians a lot of the symbolism you can find in a dog
On tribe. And I actually had a podcast discussion with one of the authors, Laris Gratton, on his book about it, and he talks about symbolism. So yeah, it's definitely something in there. You know, each o there, Mesutami and all that they have a link between each other. Even Messo America has a link.
Hey what about the Masonic handshakes? Yeah, I mean it's a symbolism s Morgesborg. You know they've got all these different parts of the hand that they're touching for different types of Masonic handshakes. That's very mystical.
Yes, yeah, but you know when I when I read about them, it's more like, uh, you can't go to the next degree without perfecting the degree that you're in now.
So how can you move?
How can you get promoted?
If you're not good at your job that you're at right now, right, why would you expect the promotion? And they stick very strong to those rules, or at least from what I've read.
I had books from.
Godfrey Higgins and you know Albert Pike and then Godfrey Higgins is actually my favorite historian and slash author. And then you have Albert church church Ward I think that's how you say his last name. You know, he talks
about the symbolism. So there is definitely something. You know, when you see symbolism, you can see that there's a certain language and meaning towards behind it, that that symbol that's that you have right now means only one thing to a certain group of individuals, and everybody sees that will understand that. It's the same thing like when I say with emojis and stuff like that, with pictographic scripts of today, you know, you have a whole sentence on
just a pictographic script. It's just the people that the people that are having that conversation, they need to have enough knowledge on there or on what each pictograph means. And hand symbolism is the same thing with like I don't know if if before we started record going live or after while we was live, but somebody was mentioning about, you know, some of the gangs and stuff like that they can have a whole discussion with just with their hands.
You know, a whole with this guys, and you know exactly what to do, and so you know, it's it's a very easy way to communicate. I think when we started using words, everybody try to use use their words to mean whatever narrative they're trying to share.
Later on, I can.
Go ahead, just really quick.
I'm gonna I'm gonna take one stab again at the dead horse on the pine cone. The pine cone. The ones that we do see are the ones that are more prominent, are the female, because pine trees produce female and male pine cones. The male ones you rarely do see. They're not showy. They mainly produce paullin jin. Please step in if I'm wrong. But the bigger one are the ones that you see on the on the floor, whatever, the ones that people hold up. That's the female one.
But that's it.
Oh well, that's perfect because you reminded me of something that I meant say earlier. The Romans associated the pine cone with Venus, and so with the goddess Venus. So it makes me wonder when you see that big bronze or whatever it is, that big pine cone at the Vatican, if that was them sort of quietly inducting goddess worship into the facility in the grounds of the Vatican itself.
And if you look back at like the Etruscans. Because the Etruscans built Rome, they actually had a goddess name Vatica.
Okay, so go ahead. J sorry tim no no no, I apologize. I was a little I shouldn't have jumped in, but you know you were saying something. I got excited. So I just want to change the angle for you. I want to say. You could say I accept that I accept that it could be a divine, feminine like encapsulation, like a crystalline matrix. You could say that's very feminine, divine force. But I also think that it could just be adopting, like something that's quote unquote I'm not a perennialist,
but I'm gonna use the word perennially true. So it could be just something that appears magical experience. And obviously there are people who attribute both masculine and feminine qualities to often the same things. So when you're looking at comparative mythology, especially from like east to West, as something that I often do, you see that there is like there are different, very different ideas of the same thing, but then there is a kind of underlying truth to
both of them. They can reason through. But it might be like a very different at face value understanding of it. So I'm not saying you're wrong. I agree, I totally accept that.
Well, I'll say I'll say this because I might be wrong. I was just throwing it out there as a possibility because of the just because of some of the connections that I'm looking at here with Like again, I'm just saying this might be the case. I'm not saying it
is the case. But like when I see that the Roman Empire seemed to kind of dissolve or morph into the Vatican, and there's you know, I'm assuming that maybe some of that goddess worship was still there and maybe it got turned into something else and or masquerades to something else. But again I'm not sure. But I do think that it's interesting that the trust Caans have the Goddess Vatica.
Absolutely, yeah. I think the closest link between like the Roman religion and the Vatican is the pantheon of Saints like they have in France, like the Penteon they have. It's like people who were like born in like nineteen oh five. They have like enshrine there that they pray to.
They have like actually official national prayers. So I think that that is very much like an encapsulation of that kind of like Lay Empire Roman religion, which people often mistake for being very polytheistic, it was actually very much about the imperial cult of ancestors. So I think that's very interesting. Of course, every there are different goddesses and god names and people, you know, encoding things in those within those names and those like kinds of images. This
is a great one. This is Shiva on top of the mountain, on top of the world mountain. You could say, yeah, exactly, like when Nicks showed he's doing the abayah mudra. So this is the gesture of fearlessness. So you're gonna ask, why is this calm, chill, dope smoking guy, Why is he offering you the gesture of fearlessness? Because once you wake him up, he becomes bi rava, he becomes very ferocious, and he turns almost black blue black, and he has
like fangs, and the carnal ground arises above him. So you have to. But that's also your own consciousness, your own mind. So when your mind wakes up, so you have to. That's what he offers, the gesture of fearlessness. So you can first enter the garden or the mountain or the carnal ground or wherever he is, and you can bypass him and you can see him as just his placid face is not a mask, but it's it's just one of many. That's one way to think of it.
You know what, I really love that go ahead, I was gonna, I was gonna say that the skins kind of almost represent a fearlessness to both Dionysus and Pan, Like Pan has these fur patterns in his legs that are kind of like the stars, and so that's one of the.
Reasons why he was referred to as sort of like this cosmic deity is because he had all of the stars in his pelt, and so that kind of goes into this Dionician character that you know, you also have the pine cone associated with Shiva, So there's there's a real crossover between Dionysus Shiva, and you know, all these different versions that they had. Like addis worship going on in that Thracian region of Anatolia.
There there's a clear link between elements of what you're saying Solar and like the alcon Huns and their journey from more of that southern Turkey into into a northern into the Himalayas. Excuse me, I couldn't think of it right away, But they went into the Himalayas, and that's really where tontras started. That Birava tantras were the first. But it's really important to note that this image of Shiva is in no way tontric. He's not suggesting anything tontric.
There's nothing tontric associated with his worship in general, and most Indians would not understand this image in an even remotely tonic way. I obviously gave it a little flavor, but in most this is a very normy, normative, very orthodox kind of image. So he's at sleeping consciousness. That's how a normative quote unquote hind would understand this. He's at sleeping consciousness and the water is flowing down, but
this the water from heaven. So he's really the god of secret knowledge if you want to like the secret not the secret idea of Shiva. He's the god of secret knowledge. So even the moon he wears, it's not really a moon. Most normative Hindus would understand this to be a moon. It's actually the eclipse. And depending on what side it even is on his hair it actually is. You can astro theologically sort of align it to the nichest cycle, which is like a sixteen sort of I
think night moon cycle. There's different numbers for different systems, but it's a very interesting thing, like you can really change, like what Tim was saying, you can encode a lot of things into iconography, signs and meanings into answer something that you said, solar and then I'll shut up, I promise. But the animal skins have a really interesting meaning. So the leopard skin means he's overcome the sort of demon you could say, of bliss consciousness, so he doesn't need
to always be pleasured to be chill. And if he is sitting on the tiger skin, he's overcome all fear. So he's offering the gesture of fearlessness, but he's also overcome it himself. Sorry, I'm gonna go on for that long.
No thanks, I just want to let you know you're not doing space is solar? Isn't here? That was headless with Tim that you're talking to.
Did I say solar twice?
Maybe the first time?
I apologize. I apologize guy, it was like late, I'm sorry again, apologize.
It's all right, it's all right. Oh, it was something I wanted to say about this, but I needed Lisa his so I guess maybe I'll have to pass for now. I do uh. One thing I do find interesting with this. It does almost remind me of the the Hermit card because of the snake in the hand open again, oh, you know, because that is I also think that, I mean the snake. I think is can be used for multiple reasons. Obviously. I do think it can also sometimes uh show like something to do with the pineal gland
or your eyeball. I do think sometimes the snake. When I think with the Hermit card, it's more of showing possibly the this, you know, the twisting of the pupil closing, smiling closed, And I have said that it does happen like when that when I have them. This could just really all could be a grasp me looking at the
snake on the right side. But I've even said that's the pupil that of mind that spins closed like it's you know, pinned, And I do see the snakes on the right side of well yeah, yeah, technically.
No, you're you're totally right neck. It's so in in Tantra, there's he has actually secret channels inside his body. There's like a trident, like there's three channels that rise up. One is behind the eye that you're talking about, and so you'll see in Tantra iconography they'll do one eye the pupils a sun and the other eye of the pupil is a crescent moon like an eclipse. So that's even how it's described. And the dragon of the eclipse again to reference the serpent. Right, so it all makes
sense to what you're saying. There's this is absolutely not wrong at.
All, Jin, I got one for you, John three fourteen. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the son of man must be lifted up.
Yeah, I would say that that's I'll keep this quick, jin no, no, no, please please, Well that seems to be conducious symbolism to me, just say it.
I think that, like on the the hand of Sebazios, you've got this snake figure that's always sort of present in with this sort of dian Ician type idea. So you've got so many different snakes that apply into that symbol. They were talking specifically about the one at Delphi, but the idea of the snake being wisdom and treachery. These kind of dualistic kind of symbols are associated with the Bible all over the place.
You know, Yeah, being being knowledgeable. That's why I eve ate the fruit. Yeah, that's why I say that too. Like a lot of people say, you know, they correlate, you know, the serpents, say in Lucifer the devil or whatever the case. Man, I mean, they throw it all in one one category. We know that between us, at
least we know the difference between them. But when it comes up to the snake, the snake is always known as someone that's given knowledge to somebody else, and it seems like that and what we do with that knowledge determines whether it was for good or evil. But the point is is when you see the snake, the snake was always seen as you know, as something you know, trying.
To give somebody knowledge.
I mean, most people are scared of snakes when they see them, but you.
Know, they have that the believer that the believers of the Testament, the believers in the New Testament are said that they can now tread upon snakes and scorpions. I think there's a little bit of astro theology in that too. You've got the symbol of scorpio in there as well.
That was great Tyrone and Hadless I have to say, we don't know's agree, but honestly, really great points. And what Tyrone said I think is really really profound, because that is exactly what it is. Like Shivas swallowed the poison, the haula Halla poison that arose from the turning of the second turning of the supernoal waters, and so he swallowed that and he keeps it in his lower body,
his stomach. He has to totally focus all his like a third eye power you could say, like Naruto kind of, so it swirls around in his stomach, and so he keeps that so like his own son figure can emerge. So that's even an idea, so really interesting, Thank you, Tyrone.
Another thing I wanted to mention with this is just to go back to I've even wondered if this is even sometimes why it's even shown on like the hermaphrodite or you know those whatever, those al chemical man and
woman the nipple showing. Just to go back to the n ox formula and something that Crowley came up with, you will at one point act like your isis breastfeeding horse holding horse, and you'll be pinching your nipple and I'm wondering if the nipple is showing because that does connect to the pineal gland as well on a female. So I just wondered about that.
But why is the skin blue or bluish?
Okay, you see how his lingam is brown, that brown pineal gland. I know that's what a headless. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to call you solar before I apologize for that. His brown lingam, So there's covered in milk is the idea. So, but it's really supposed to be a black chloroalite stone. So when you pour the white milk over the black stone, it looks sort of blue. So this is like a clear like very night sky or very day sky, excuse me, so like turquoise. It
kind of appears turquoise. So he's like turquoise like the day sky because he's sleeping.
Okay, you're drinking that colonial silver shit.
You never know, right, very lunar, very lunar coded. You get into that lunar mind set, you gotta drink the coloidal silver.
Makes sense right on one other question I had that go for it last picture.
There we go, there you.
Go, that's the same god. So that's the same uh you know, that's Siva. And then that's his wife and she's nursing him. This is right after, in fact, that he drinks the poison. It's only her breast milk can save him, can repair the world.
That's how it's described, like even on the list one too. I mean maybe they do it en maybe I'm wrong, maybe they do it on all of them, but like they active, they have marchs where their panel Gleann would be. Do they always do that or.
It's special for Tara because she is the third Eye. So the original story is the goddess, the original goddess of having got cut up into fifty one pieces, so obviously magic number. And then so each part of her falls on a specific place and then a new goddess sort of herself arises, and so Tara arises as part of the third Eye. So when Tara and Tara is also associated with that hassetic idea of perception, it's very much her idea. She is the flame of the of perception,
that's even how it's described. But she's also the waters of superno mercy, so she's Actually it's interesting because it's actually both cover outic kind aesthetic at the same time.
Well, the last two images, I don't know if it's common or not. The bo had that nipple showing and they had the pineal gland drawn on their forehead, and Lisa, since your back, could you please explain the connection between the paneal gland and the nipple.
Yeah, I don't know the exact mechanism off the top of my head, but yes, the pineal gland influences the pituitary for milk let down, which is prolactin, and then that's and then the feedback of oxytocin from the bonding that occurs between the mother and the So I'm sorry, Oxytocin helps with the release of prolactin. Prolactin causes milk let down, and then the reinforced positive feedback with the child latching onto the nipple, and then the oxytosine oxytoscin
bonding and all that other stuff. With all that that being said, during milk let down, the milk itself is carries vital information that is received in like packages of photons or photons or packages of information that tell the child or tell the infant where it is, what time it is, daylight, moonlight, nighttime, what have you. It starts to program the circadian rim of the child itself, if it was not already starting to be programmed within utero
because the child had yet to see light sunlight. Also, reinforcing of the circadian rhythm comes from the from the mother's pineal and basically tells the child or conveys the information to the child where the child is, what sees, and so forth. So yeah, the pineal does feed into
breastfeeding very much so. And one other thing, sorry this kind of tangent, but like in the event that a child undergoes or a child unfortunately goes through some sort of like head trauma, the child will release certain enzymes or chemical messages messages in mouth and it's saliva that will feed into the nipple and the memory tissue, and then we'll feed back up into the brain and then the brain itself mainly the pituitary haypithylamic pituitary access will
then release certain peptides I think, and will deliver healing peptides to potentially heal the brain injury or the head injury. So there is that too, And that's actually that whole mechanism is being looked at for athletes that undergo like head trauma and stuff like that.
So damn, thank you. Yeah. I was talking about how, you know, earlier they showed a guy with his nipple showing and then this, you know, then I had mentioned Curly's ono x formula, which I have gone over with you, where he grabs the nipple because the baby's supposed to be feeding. And it is my opinion, my opinion that it may not just we'll be Dixon demons, and he could have been talking about the manula. It may not it'll be just titties and cakes and lake. It might
actually be some science in this ship. But I don't know. That's my opinion. Uh too, Huh.
It's closing the loop. It's closing the loop because you're putting the tip of your thumb on your nipple. The two symbols coming together, Okay, that's interesting.
And if their skin is turquoise and not blue, then turquoise is very symbolic, especially in Egypt and across other cultures too. But in Egypt it's like protection and good fortune. And even if I told you, sorry, Tom, that was it.
You're good. Sorry, what if I told you turquoise was actually the most magic color I could see that? Yeah, because it's like the diamond thunder color. It's like the it's like you got it the highest quality color. So to see like this turquoise idea, especially in the Piranhas, they're very obsessed with color, and people often attribute it to race or case. It's actually none of those things. It's actually talking about layers of spiritual clurification, all chemical
you could even say. So the turquoise color is actually equivalent to both lapis and clear, both quartz and like dark dark blue. So it's really interesting what you're saying.
No, And it's one of my favorite colors too. I mean, I really love that color. And you know, I don't wear it a lot because it's like it's become like a hipster thing to wear a bunch of turquoise around town. Like I see these guys, like, you know, like kipsters wearing turquoise and really in here, yes, here, in my in my uh, I mean I live in a in a very hipster neighborhood of East Nashville, and these turquoise like is hitting strides right now on the streets.
But never went out of st Turquoise never went out of style.
Right, yeah, and that's what yeah, just the other Native Americans for sure.
Going off what Jin said. I mean, it's the color of the ketzel bird, and it gets a quattal right, gets a quad That's where we come with the whole feather serpent. And then also the ketzel bird whenever it sits a certain area of the base of one of the I think it's Jualula of the pyramids in Mexico, you can hear it like it gives off a certain echo reverberation. But yeah, the cat the turquoise, sorry, kettl.
The ketzel bird has that turquoise color and it's very very important, very symbolic at least to the Michigan the Aztec people, and the Miami people as well. And when the whole Virgin Mary thing came about, a lot of people think that she was robed in blue, but that was more of a European I guess misrepresentation. She was actually robed in turquoise because she was trying to give symbology to the Machika people, which they consider turquoise to
be the highest level of spirituality link. John said, thank you.
I appreciate that we got. Here is the hand of providence. It it goes back some of these, whichever one I'm not exactly sure it is. Now you can go back all the way back to two hundred and forty four CE that they start seeing it, and then they see it again in sixth century hearing one of them is Moses in the burning bush and there's a hand coming down from the top. Here is just an isolated one,
you sound that they found in Fresco in Spain. You see this one in the hand of God as it is intervenes at the sacrifice of Isaac, and that's from tenth century. We got another one here with the clothed hand clutching a wreath, and that's in Rome. It was between eleven and forty and eleven forty three. We got another one here the Visigothic capital with the sacrifice of Isaac. Again you seeing a little hand popping out of the corner.
We got the Ascension of Christ and then no Lea remember that's around four hundred at the hand coming out again. I find it interesting with the baby child like or like a younger pressing, because like don't they say that like when you're younger, you might actually be more like predisposed to like that's the the world, the higher realms. So you got another one up there. I really couldn't see it that well in this picture, but there is another one up there that's from the sixth century, a
semi dome. What do we got here? You got another one from eleven hundred to the Baptism of Jesus from Daphney whatever that is. And I know we talked about this a bunch of times, but we do have the hams as well that I just wanted to show that that you do have an eye sometimes attached to that as well. And it's the hand sticking up and then we do have this one that can be used to
go against it. The more hand symbolism. Something I do wanted to I did want to mention is with this hand symbolism where you see like them sticking the thumb out people and myself And now I'm wondering I was even gonna mention this earlier, but I figured I'd go again with the pineal gland on your thumb. A lot of people sometimes when they do their rituals, they will draw it like that, they'll draw it with their thumb sticking out. Never understood why. I don't think anybody I
actually knew that didn't even knew why. They just kind of saw it done or whatever they're repeating it. For me, I just felt more comfortable, felt like I was actually drawing something. I don't know, fucking cares, who knows, you know, I just mind fucked myself into some reason believing to use that that gesture. So I didn't want to mention that one uh that we already have this head list did go over this before we got the hand of glory. We have that from fifteen sixty five. Another thing that
you see pop up. You have the hand of glory holding a candle from the eighteenth century Grimore, the Petit Albert.
I think that was something that immediate Lisa had even covered in older uh in older uh grimoires and the hand of Glory again, the seventeen twenty two Petit Albert describes in detail how to make a hand of glory as sighted from Emil Jews Grillow whatever, and it says you take the right you take the right or left hand of a felon who is hanging from a gibbet beside a highway, wrap it in part of a funeral
pall and so wrapped, squeeze it well. Then put it into an earthenware vessel with zimat nitrate, salt and long peppers. The hole well powdered. Leave it in this vessel for a fortnight. Then take it out and expose it to a full sunlight during the dog days until it becomes quite Try if the sun is not strong enough, put it in an oven with fern and verveine. Next, make a kind of candle from the fat of a gibbage, felon, virgin wax, sesame and pony exactly sure where that is.
And use the hand of glory as a candlestick to hold this candle when lightened. And then those in every place into which you go with this beautiful instrument cell remain motionless. Oh you got the philosopher's hand. There's even another one. Uh really, the crown on the thumb and the eclipse kind of well, that'd be a not necessary eclipse, but you know what I mean, the crescent moon cress. I don't know if anybody got an idea about what the thumb the thumb and the crowd could be I don't.
But it's the crown of your head.
Yeah yeah, oh yeah, yeah right, they go back to your pineal gland again. Yeah yep, Kyle, wellk yeah close. I mean you're ganging up there, yeah.
Yeah, because like the crown symbolizes uh, you know, the top part of the head, and then Christen is uh could be considered king God or whatever.
Then we got the benediction sign. I just wanted to throw that in there. That's been linked to uh. I mean, I know, Leasta, you probably explained it better, the whole benediction. No, you don't understand that actually, the whole thing with the benediction symbol and the problems with like the muscles and the fingers and stuff.
No, I don't. I don't know why, but don't And I'm like, no, I don't.
Yeah, they said something about having own a neuropathy, and they're like they actually had, like, but I don't know if I want to buy that. That's why they're making this is because their hands are actually fucked up. I mean, I know David Eis is that about his hands? Which that might be true. I mean we started doing art because they're hands like that I don't know.
The hands.
Oh yeah, yeah, with the two fingers.
Uh ship, that's where it comes from.
M hmm, yeah, yeah, it's the last two events. Yep.
Uh.
One other thing. Oh, you know, it's interesting somebody had mentioned before earlier too. Oh we're getting into hand symbals. I can't forget this, but somebody had mentioned it earlier. I guess what's a face throwing up that that handsign like this? I have suggested that I also sometimes do think. I mean, it could just be easy enough. That's the symbol of fire. But then uh oh there's also the oh god, at list again, what part of the brain is it where it's it turns into triangular.
Paramoidal cells, and that's usually around the cerebral and amygdala prefrontal cortex. Sorry, yeah, so this is the whole perception that you have that that almost triangular shape of cells or concentration of them.
Is that also the part that I think might be considered Amon's horn as well?
Oh oh you're okay, sorry, yeah, that is going to be that not the CEREBELM goodness, I'm so sorry. Yeah, that is what houses sit. It sits on top of the pineal and that is that is for a memory as well as cognition and like perception of like where you are, how you are, all that other stuff which basically feeds from the pineal as well, like orientation.
Yeah, that part of that part of the brain isn't like the rest of the body's basically done in hexagonal, right, and that one's done in like in the pyramid years. So I had wondered, I mean, maybe that's a stretch, but I have wondered if maybe that's why some people might put it up in that area. And then that reminded me. I know some people take this as six sixty six. I mean, my whole idea is sixty sixty six is a little bit different. But that made me
think of six sixty six. And I have to say, for the YouTube listeners or the people viewing YouTube today, is our six hundred and sixty sixth video right now that you're watching. So patch yourself on the back. But uh uh and then uh tell, oh you know another thing too that's using uh ritual magic too, I mean the sign of silence. I mean, I don't know if that's going back, if that is using your hand. I didn't want to bring that up. I mean that'll be
brought up to you. Uh. In ritualistic work. From my experience, sometimes when you're done doing whatever you're doing at that that direction, what you've done, like whatever, bring your you bring your hand up, or you do it like that basically saying like I'm done. Or in the star Ruby, you will start off like that, standing in the middle before you do anything with your hand making the sign of silence and then swooping it down, you know, up up a Ponto's caka dominos. He's you know, sitting there
and started off the ritual. But you actually start that ritual off with the sign of silence and like undoing it or something. I don't know, but interesting. Uh. I did want to bring that.
Up, and then I wanted to I wanted to interject it's the hip of campus. Sorry for the people that are like relases has it completely wrong. It's the hippo campus and that is responsible for memory as well as learning. This is the part where you have spatial memory that we were talking about. This is where you merge short where you take short term memory into long term memory. So obviously learning and all that other stuff. It's the sea horse of the of the brain.
Yep.
I actually think in in Game of Thrones, whatever that next sequel was, I forgot the name of it, the House of Dragons or whatever. I think the first one was very heavily based on eyeball and brain shit. But in the second one, like they have like the Sea Horse, there's there's actually like a family that's related to the dragon people with the sea horse, And I'm like, I'm fucking telling you that's brain shit. Yeah, it's just too coincidental.
This one. You know what this is. It's called the fig It's a mildly obscene gesture that uses the thumb wedge between two fingers to ward off the evil eye, insult someone, deny, or request. It has been used at least since the Roman agents other in Europe and parts of the Mediterranean.
Yeah, I think I think then you could use this as the same thing. I think he was saying too against the evil eye. Yeah yeah, all right, cool, all right, thank you? Uh all right? What else were you go here? What were you saying? Tim? You asked something?
Right, I was just going to point out that from this angle, maybe it's just the angle of the camera, but this looks like a giant eyeball.
Oh, yeah, there was in our Eyeball series, there was toms of domes that we showed on the churches and I'm like, yeah, I'm sorry, those things look like fucking eyeballs. There's even like some of the domes where it's almost like you even see them with the design is almost even like the layers that you'll see of what the corneers even like looks like it's like, what the fuck did you actually know that?
The one in the eyeball thing that we did nick with Teresa the oculus and is it the pantheon? Please somebody correct me if I'm wrong, But the oculus is like, you know, we thought about, oh, it could be like
the pupil. But then also when you showed the whole thumb with the crown where the crown goes when the baby is born, that area of where the crown is is super soft Umbertresa was talking about that and how like it's almost like the oculus of some of these Greek areas where Greek temples where it's open to that area which it's opened down into sorry, the hippocampus and into the final area.
And Lisa, you bring up a very interesting point about that light. So if you look back at other animals that have evolved with the pineal gland, it's almost like a third eye that sticks up on top of their
brains because it's taking in sunlight. And then as the brain is built on top of that base lizard level layer, that's when you have these other parts of the head coming in and that's the whole thing, you know, So the middle of the head really would be taking in a light, especially during the part of the you know time that the baby is, you know, youngest, because it's already a soft spot.
That even makes uh doesn't it make almost like a y symbol too, the way it goes on top of the kid's head.
I believe it does the way that it's fish together.
Because essentially neonates are not blind, but they're there their retina issue is not fully formed, so yeah, they would need some sort of.
Yeah, Okay, they're called sagital sutures, and the sagital sutures on the the elongated skulls are different than on other humans. That's one of the indicators that they might not be the same species.
I find this to be an incredible image neck just because it just reminds me so much of sons hicinography and really of course the eye. But you can see so much in it like that. You can see they put some good cabbala. They they they everything is has a meaning, every number, all the numbers of things, like the trees, like to have eight of them, that's very interesting. To have the lambs twelve of them, plus Jesus is thirteen. That's very interesting. To have the blue and the gold
and the red and the green. It's all very interesting. Like it's like a it's a very They were obviously doing something very cool in the sixth century to have come up with this, because this is a very interesting image that obviously the later Church kind of forgot for a while.
In my opinion, o, the art is actually rather interesting, especially inside. Yeah. I just I was kind of really stuck on that head in Providence thing. I really don't know much about it. I mean, I was even telling Hellas about that shit last week. I just yeah, because go for it, please.
In the Old Testament, it was said that God came down from heaven and wrote mysterious writings on the walls of Babylon. It was like that hand of Providence motif perfectly illustrated as this. You know, God character made his hand visible so he could write with his finger on the wall in uh one of these courts. So it was like the invisible God made visible is in the shape of that hand.
Mhm uh yeah, fucking hand. Oh yeah, I mean that much. I just wanted to get that out of the way. There's definitely something up with that ship. Uh, I don't know.
I mean that's with the hand coming out of the sky.
Right.
Yeah, you showed like and I don't know, this is kind of Matt, you speak kind of dumb, but like there's a ninety Snails album cover from the album is called Year zero and it's got that it's got a hand coming out of the sky. I always wondered why he used that, but maybe it was like maybe it.
Was like a not to some of this stuff.
Yeah.
Right, that's a perfect example, right there, go for it.
Well, just be really quick. I just wanted to tie in the version of Guadaloupe with the hand symbolism because it is the Holy Family with the Virgin of Guadalupe, the Holy Child, Saint Joseph, Saint Anne, and Saint Joaquin. So you have the five most powerful sort of like you could say, like the biblical lineage, all in your
the palm of your hand, and so the wound there. Yes, it's also a stigmata, but it also has a very interesting significance when you study Saint Hey y I used to be very obsessed with this as a little kid, saying, heygar fees. So the idea is that blood is related to fire in the humor system. So as fire is the element of watching, it can also be depicted as an eye. So Nick was even saying in our in our group chat, he was like, well, I won't say exactly,
but he said, there's a gash in the sky. And then I said, well, it could be a yoni, But what if it's also like this? What if it's also like a you know, the hand could also be the same thing. You can see it if just it depends on the shape like a vesca pisces kind of is it an eye or is it a hole?
What is it.
On the hand of Sabazios It has pisces directly in the middle of the palm, You know what I meant to?
Oh, fuck, I really wish I would remember this shit. They'll remember because they were here except for Tim well you weren't either, and we had Ashton on. He did show like remember he showed like a vesca pisces at
one point. The reason I mentioned in the chat earlier is that that gash in the sky is because that's actually one of the lines that was in liber three seventy And I just found it really weird that like he ends up like showing like even if you watch the video, it looks like the plane fulls flies into like what a gash or fucking bring a rip into fucking fabric? And I just found that really weird when gash and then I'm looking at the fucking yoni or whatever.
I was like, I don't know, but I wish I would have remember that then I would have brought that up.
And you know what, I wanted to ask him, and I forgot to ask him, has he ever seen that show Manifest? Because that show Manifest reminds me a lot about that.
I haven't seen that, so I wouldn't even know.
I just had an interesting thought, what's up? If you look at the edges of the painting, it kind of looks like there's a yoni shape to the central figure. So is this depicting sort of like the birth of a child or reaching in to get a child out. And plus look at the place where Jesus is again, he's got the symbol of that pine cone right in the middle of your forehead. He's the child of the thumb. That's the pineal glamor.
That's interesting.
I do think the fish symbolism is really interesting in comparison because I think it actually does mean the same thing headless. I think that was a good inclination. I think it's about like the I think you can understand in two layers, probably more, but the way I understand
it is in two. So it's like the transmutation of fish, the very magical, very out chemical act, the provision for thyself, and then also the trans sort of the transmutation into the Kingdom of the Sun, which is not necessarily the church. But it's also like in the morel resocrution sort of Yeah, it's not gnaustic, but people might understand it as such. It's more the kingdom is in your heart, so you know, however you understand that. But I think it can be both things.
Well, I mean there's the crossover there too, with the center of the palm and sort of like Mary touching her heart, you know, that whole sort of bleeding heart motifs and how to play into that palm center of the hand as well.
Our Lady of Guadeloupe is pregnant as well, as Lisa has said, so she's not quite a mother yet. She's preconceptual, not preconceptual, but pre partum, so she's still generative and able to sort of like contain the heart of mercy. That would be maybe a very Catholic Rosicutian kind of way to think of it.
And they call it the crown because of crowning, Yeah, yeah, coming out through the.
I don't know if y'all mention this, but y'all talk about the stigmata.
I don't think so.
One of the things that I thought was very interesting, at least with some of these certain what I call them hall of famers in Catholicism, and they don't have to be Catholic. There has been some stigmatas that are not religious or that you know, have I guess a leaning towards but we only I've only heard of the
ones that are. But basically it's the bleeding. It's a routine bleed or continuous bleeding from the palm of the hand to indicate the wounds of Christ sustained during crucifixion, which is oddly because you know, they said that there's no way that he could have been cruised through the hand because it would have just slipped through that. It
probably was more through the wrist. But with these stigmatas, I know pad Bio suffered from that and it was a continuous bleeding from the hand and he would be giving mass, and there were people that would claim that they would see him bleeding from his poems. There were times that he bled so much that he had to take solace because how much blood he lost. But there is that, and it's supposed to indicate to be touched
by the divine. And then the other thing is that whenever they do house relics or saint relics, a lot of one of the famous ones is the hand. So yeah, it reminded me that the image reminded me because that's what the that center bleeding thing is.
I think that's a very good point. I think trances can program the body as well as the mind, and so having that state of mind can really produce things like this in the body as well as you know, spiritual influences, and that's that's a big part of it too.
Something I actually wanted to ask you headless because I wasn't sure if you were going to actually covered it or not, because I think this might have been what spurred your idea of the hand symbolism one of them. Uh, wasn't it like I was gonna bring it up, but I thought maybe you knew more about it, like in medieval times, didn't They used to kind of make like a hand, like almost like something you could wear actually,
but it would be like remember you showed it. I think it was like almost like some made out of metal, like they were making like hands. So some guy made like his own hand, and then I think that you're going on something about like that whole thing. Do you know?
That was a really interesting guy, right. This was the a mercenary German from from this part of Germany who who had the famous line, you know, like Misha Marsh and so Beethoven. It was either Beethoven or Bach who wrote a entire like symphony around this phrase, which means,
you know, kiss my ass. And so he's he's famous for this and he also got his arm blown off by a cannon, and so he built himself a fully articulated metal arm that he could hold a sword with and it was magnetic in the palm and he was able to raise this thing and sort of command his troops. And he actually lived to a much older age than most mercenaries did back then, and you know, he died in his like seventies, which is kind of incredible for
a guy who lived as rough as he did. And so later on the Nazis adopted this guy's name for their battalion, the uh I think it was the Waffing Grenaders or something like that. But the whole idea was, you know, he was this folk symbol from back then. And then if you look at this one manga called Berserk, you've got a German mercenary with a fully articulated metal arm that carries a massive sword around and cuts people in half of stuff.
Right.
And so somehow before the Internet, this guy's writing this manga about sort of like this German mercenary that was already idealized by the by the Nazi Party and sort of became this folk symbol, you know. So it's it's a really funny connection because the guy had no connection to you know, this culture knew anything about it when he started making his character Guts, And the guy's name is God's von Berlichingen and Guts his name is Guts
in the comic book series. So there's just all sorts of crossover and no real explanation for it.
But like even back in medieval times too, I think they used to even used to like make like hand decoration things too, like that guy had as well. Yeah, fucking that story.
I found a chart online. There's several of these charts and their Masonic hand gestures. It's very interesting. It's almost as if they could essentially carry out a conversation just using their hands, if any of this is correct. Becaus I was thinking about Nick earlier. You did something like this right like, you showed this appointing finger. I think, I don't know, maybe you were talking about something else,
but you know this right here, right like. I look that up and it's like a G in sign language. So now I thought about the G and like the Masons, so I went and looked at the Mason handshart and this same hand gesture for the Masons means caution. It says, it means a indexing or caution. But then I found all these other interesting things that the Masons have, so it's almost like they have their own little type of sign.
Language going on. Just don't what's this. Uh, let me see see if there's one for that.
One of the most common. It's Mason in distress.
Oh yeah, so I see that.
It says.
That is this right?
Wait, no, no, Mason, it's like this, you're doing the chi ball. That's Mason in distress.
Well, so, I don't know what this is, but one of somebody's got that listed as as Buddha Patra Mundra Buddha Patra Mundra madra.
That hands.
So I don't know what that means, but.
Do it again.
Sorry about that.
I think it has something to do with the chia ball, right, because as you're creating the energy that's used a lot in Tai Chi and other you know, Uasai Buddhist uh, you know, influenced stuff. So I don't know. I'm not at the expert in netfield.
This is an ethan question, but Taoism and Buddhism can be conceptually treated as the same in my opinion. So someone gives you shit about it, just like Jen told me, install you Okay, so.
I was looking forward to eat it because he knows all these mudras, you know, hands little. I know a little bit about the nijitsu hand signs, right. So they had their own system of mudras that they were supposed to use to get into calm states of mind. And so you have all these different mudras that these ninjas would use before going into battle as sort of like a I guess ch magic, right. And so they've got these different ones that kind of look like this, and
other ones that kind of look like a dragon. Right. So the these different moodras are supposed to channel energy in different ways.
The animal hand signals. If you watch Naruto, it explains this entire concept, like really, well, each hand sign is related to constellation. Also an animal with the zodiac, Yeah, exactly what Hella said. It unlocks that gate of energy chi you could say. And it also invokes the divine lightning strike from the goddess marshy ten. There's not always a goddess. Sometimes she's a god is she's kind of mythraic in that way, can be a god and sometimes
a goddess not hermaphrodite. Just different people have different underset ways of looking at her. But in Buddhism we say it's a girl.
I think it's just a really interesting way of casting spells.
You know.
I'm sure that they had stuff like that in other places. And also we didn't even get into palmistry. I mean didn't Palmistry used to be the biggest form of divination forever.
You know.
That's that's very mystic, that was huge for.
A long time. Yeah, that's a good point too.
I mean, your whole life mapped out on the palm of your hand, That's that's pretty important, I think.
Yeah, yeah, a lot of people, like I mean, they pretty much you know, adhered to that to un extend, you know what I'm saying, kind of like how people are with astrology. They'll actually be like, oh, you know, mercury is in retrograde grade retrogrades, no matter what, my life's fucked up, you know what I'm saying, Like you just you automatically already put you you know, into a structure.
Yeah.
Right, but like any system, I think you can you can maximize its you know, effectiveness, just by looking for the positive things and how to use those signals.
Right. Uh, there was something else too, with another hand symbol. Is there any other hand signs? For some reason, I was thinking of one and escaped me. Now I can't remember that thousands yeah, I know, for some reason, I can't think of any right now.
Jesus, what about that one? When did that one get popular?
Right?
I mean that's that's pretty powerful, you know. I mean, if you're thinking about so this this represented erect fallus to the Greeks, right. The alternative was the fig, which represented the glitters. So yeah, the fig, Yeah, the erect Pallas and so these these ideas too. You've got sun and mood, male and female. All this duality is contained within the hands sign language. Do we even mention sign language?
No?
No, I wondered about that, but I was just like, I didn't know if that would like take us.
I don't know, I want to see a mute person cast spells.
Oh fuck.
Yeah.
That's kind of why I looked up the sun language chart, because I was wondering if there were any kind of connections between what we saw today and sign language.
I didn't see many. They might be there, though, Did they even use.
Sign it said? It was said that all the Native Americans had a type of sign language that went between all the different tribes, so they had their own languages, but they spoke at a common sign language between all the tribes.
Yeah, there you go. It only works. It really only works between related ethno linguistic groups. So like if you're going from like Cree to Ojibway, which are related, or even like Ojibway to Abenaki or Menominee or all those ones on the East coast, you can do it because you have enough consonant value to ascribe like the symbols,
like the right meaning to the right symbol. But when you're going away from like those dialoctical groups, your your language is too decoherent from each other, so it's not going to really make sense. But yeah, no, you're totally right, Headless.
They did use a trading sign language, and it's actually it's not I wouldn't say it's hugely significant, but it's it's it's just something interesting is that they've as what Nick was saying, they didn't really have sign language because they've constantly reformed what sign language is like even until now.
They keep updating it, changing words, adding words, just like we do in English, but it's more formal, so it's kind of like a language that's constantly never quite the same, like in it one generation, ten years, you could say it changes significantly.
Well, I just think about the rivers and how they would speak to each other, you know, going up and down all these open waters, and to me, it's it says a lot about the different communities and how they related to each other. You know, there's there was some kind of a familial bond that you know, occurred back when they both spoke the same language and then diverted
off from each other. I mean, there's just so many like images that you get from the different stories from the name of Americans that really ties into the ground that we're on that nobody really thinks about.
Yeah, there's a notion too that some of the rock art is related in some type of way to assign sign language. And you know, I'm not an expert on that, but I do you find that that connection is very interesting. Like it's like coded, you know what I mean, It's like it's like double coded. At that point, you've got art based on sign language that's very cryptic, and.
The ochre that they were using to put this stuff up has it faded in hundreds and hundreds of years. I mean that ochre doesn't usually last that long, so there was some other process for them to get it to stick like that.
Well, that's that's the thing. They had, these methods.
They were able to.
Harden copper. They could they could take copper, which is you know, Malleable's part of its values that you can you can mold it to a shape. But then they were able to put it through some sort of process where they could take they could make this, they could make copper and the shape of tools and then harden the copper so the tools wouldn't break. So there was all kinds of alchemy going on copper, right.
Hi Festus was this guy to blacksmith, and he was also part of these idea in Dactyls coming from you know, Mount Olympus. So it's like any tradesman, anybody who worked with their hands were sort of pushed into that same role of having this elevated status of being able to be, you know, among the people playing the games. So it was all part of their the religious culture.
Yeah, the one that interests me and this is something I'd love to know more about. But the thought or the theory that they were putting copper on top of the mounds or some of their even even pyramids, because at one time Kahukia said to have at least one hundred pyramids up there right outside of Saint Louis. And you know, I've seen the idea thrown around by researchers that they were putting copper on top for some reason.
So maybe there's some sort of a conductive element there that they were utilizing receive the lightning strike.
It's a very literal but also very metaphysical way to describe like the same thing. Like what however you understand it? Yeah, I think you're totally right t him. I think they would have put it like all the implements, you know, like the city in Florida's described as like having like the rods of gold and you know, nuts of pearls and like very it can be both metaphysical and material because it means something in both kinds of languages. So
I think your inclination is totally right. Like every magician wants to ease and self into the well, pource himself into the experience with all the you know, shiny tools.
Yeah, and you know there's there was an obelisk at Serpent Mound and they said that they removed it because it was getting struck by lightning constantly. And I'm wondering, if you know, was there something metaphysical to that, and you know, to the reason why, was it like charging the whole area or something.
Just curious?
Well, the IDs i ods created after a lightning striker hugely beneficial to the soil, so there is a fertility aspect of that.
Well, it relates also to your idea of turquoise, Tim, is that the lightning can also be described as turquoise in quality, turquoise in color. It's because it's really clear, but it might appear to us as blue. The contours appear to us as blue, but it's really crystaline in its core, So it's like a diamond thunder matrix.
You could say.
So it's but that is can also be described as turquoise. It just depends on, you know, your cultural context. But most people would understand that, like a serious metaphysician would say, oh, yeah, there's a similarity there. There's something that aligns with like lightning specifically and the color turquoise.
Yeah, it reminds me of what was it I saw that there was some magicians were using I think it was wood from a tree that had been struck by lightning, and they were taking the wood and turning it into a wand and I guess the thought process there is that once the wood is struck by.
Lightning, it's charged. It's charged. So this is a cemetery practice. I didn't know if I was going to bring this up, but it is really interesting since you did say it. So to get lightning struck like this is pretty universal as far as I understand, Like you see it in a lot of different systems of magic, and so lightning struck wood is the is like the lignum vita, right, especially if it's from specific, very specific kinds of wood. And it's interesting because the kinds of wood seem to
be relatively universal, like everybody has their outlier. In tropical countries kind of do their own thing, but the more temperate countries they prefer elder. Even in China, like a Taoist to forge a Daoist like a magic sword to expel ghosts, you have to get a lightning struck elder from the cemetery on a specific kind of moon alignment. It's like so specific. Yeah, and especially if the if someone is buried under it. It should be a first son.
There's all these prescriptions, so it's like almost impossible to do it.
It's worst than getting like where they say you can get like a wand from a holly tree on a Wednesday. You got it off with one swoop.
What are the odds that they might be using al chemical symbolism, so all of these things could relate to other things within like tcmors stuff like that.
I mean, you're definitely onto something headless like this is very doctrine of signatures. Even in Native American medicine will call it broadly. Look at Dan Mormon's book. He has a whole section on what he calls lightning medicine. Lightning medicine directly corresponds to what is also called horse medicine and what is also called wolf medicine. Those three things
aren't necessarily the same diagnosis, but they're all interrelated. So they would treat like edema is a really like lightning signature, we would call it, so that is treated by the external application of elder bark onto the swollen elephant titus joints basically, and it would help drain out. It's a harsh purgative. You're when you're talking about the inner core of the wood. Now you know the berries and the flowers. That's totally fine, but it's a very strong purgative, so
it really drains the water downwards. That's how it's considered.
Anything to do with Native America. No, sorry, the Americas. That what you just said about the horse and the wolf.
Absolutely so the horse medicine is agrimony, So it's for both external injuries like stress, muscle stress especially, and then wolf medicine would be for if you have very leaky gut, like if you have a camp fever malaria, which also can interestingly be treated with agrimony, which in kudo and also Native American sort of medicine systems is used to repel lightning. So again the Culpepper was right. The you know, the medicine and the poison there, you know, they're interrelated things.
And the reason I ask is because I remember how, like we had discussed previously, how the oldest I believe in fossils, the oldest fossil remnants that you that we have, you know, at least on document comes from the Americas. So they believe that the point of origin for the equus species and for the canids originate in North America. In the Americas. Sorry, And so when you said Horace
and Wolf, that immediately reminded me of that. And that's, you know, a little bit of a basis of my theory where I think that the point of origin for Homo sapiens maybe came from the Americas and we migrated westward, so because we followed them, because that's what the fossil record shows, is that the equus and the canine species moved westward rust that way.
I mean that that I've been telling people this for years, is like I totally agree with you, Lisa, Like one hundred we'll say one hundred and ten percent, use a magic number, but yeah, I totally agree with you. Is that you know, like there are so people don't know this, but we have cactuses here not where necessarily where I live, but in the northern prairies. So the older name for them is actually horse cactus. A newer name for them is actually wolf cactus. So it's interesting because how are
they named. Well, they're named for the shadow they cast in reflection to the light. So and you can see it like if you hold up like a torch or a flashlight. Even at night, they actually kind of look like a horse's shadow or a dog shadow. So I always realize this as a kid, and I was like, yeah, it doesn't really make sense, this introduction of horses, because how would they the planes were only settled in the seventeen hundred, it wouldn't even make sense. So yeah, I
totally with you. And even in Creed the word for a horse is big dog or big wolf sometimes, so there's an interrelationship between those things and how they're understood to like appear in the world. And maybe it you know, the dog and the wolf. Yes, different obviously, especially in topic iconography, but there's an inter relationship. And you can say always associated with lightning, horses always always associated with at least the sound of lightning or that nay. Sometimes
in tounch we'll say that horse's nae is right. So yeah, they're all interrelated things. And I agree with you that we I don't think we quite understand our origin. I didn't mean to go on a New World tangent, but yeah, I'm very pro New World.
Yeah, absolutely. One thing I wanted to interject it is about the hand, but it's not related to occultism is that fingerprints on the hand they are unique to each individual person. And one of the things that I wanted to mention bes I don't know if a lot of people know this is with identical twins. No, two identical twins have the exact same fingerprint, even though they have the same DNA relatively. Yeah, So designed to insert that there, No.
I think you're on to something. I mean, think about why palmistry makes sense is because you've got something individual to you on each one of your fingers, So why wouldn't you have more about your life going on in the rest of your hands. And so I also wanted to bring up the Mississippian hand eye symbol. Right, So if you follow doctor Greg Little on Twitter, you're always seeing these cut out of bronze down in the Mississippian culture. So these were in the mounds, as this hand eye
symbol is basically ubiquitous all over the Mississippian culture. So I thought that was important too, because there you go, that's that hand symbolism popping up again.
Hey Jesus know what mound or what area that one was was found. I'm just curious. That's pretty well well Mississippians. We're central to around Saint Louis, Right, they had a bunch of mound sites around there and big old platforms that were eventually bulldozed and used for other things. But I think there are still a couple of mounds.
But that's the Mississippians were way pre Columbus, so they didn't ever have any interactions with the Europeans later on, but who knows if there was influences before them.
Yeah, so that was Do you think that that symbol was found at you know, Kahokia, perhaps Monks Mound or Coke Mound.
I think they were related. I'd have to look out the exact dates.
Now either way.
That's super interesting And like I like doctor greg Little's work a lot, and I've been wanting to know more about that because I've seen that, right, I've seen those images with the hand with the eye in it. I just I really want to look more into where those were found.
That's awesome.
Just follow his account. He's always posting that stuff and where it can be found and all the rest of it.
There's a great book that I've referenced before, but it's Jason Berry. He wrote a book on Blackhawk who's a spiritualist saint from Wisconsin. He talks about the Mississippian snake cult, how there was parts of African, European indigenous and so, and probably a lot of the Christian snake handling actually comes from more like that than it does from a
biblical source. I'm not saying they never did it in like, you know, the Middle East, but I think that, yeah, it probably has more Americanized roots than maybe people are comfortable with.
This is what I keep talking about about meditating on this hand to Sabazios because you know, again it's snake handling right there, and snake handling. There's something about these two symbols. They go together. And you see it in Ophiucas, right, he's the snake handler, He's got these other things. There's something about hand symbolism and snakes that kind of go along together.
There's there's a hand signal with the eye on it that is Hebrew in origin. It's called Hamza. And I think maybe the air the air version is the hand of Fatima.
Yeah, yeah, I think I had the I just didn't really say much about it. I'll bring it up for you.
Go for it.
Yeah, do you got it. Oh, no, not much.
It's just that I'm I looked it up to Sakonda refresh from my memory on it, and it's saying that it was a palm shaped ambulant that was used in North Africa even and of course in the Middle East. So and some of the people were using it as a guard against the evil eye. Let's see what did they actually say here, hams has been traditionally believed to provide defense against the evil eye.
Yeah, I think the change it depending on which way it is. It also makes differences to I've heard that the fingers a down.
Yeah, there's an inverted version.
Yeah Turkish, no exactly what, but it is called actual gem and uh okay.
So early use of this can be traced back to ambulance associated with the goddess in an ari ishtar. That's very interesting.
It always goes back to the star goddess. I mean, that's the Himalayan story. Tara is the star, that's what her name means. So I totally agree with you, tim A start a far. I'm not saying they're all the same, but they're they're all interrelated.
Yeah.
Or Aphrodite is another name here, it's used it seems like it's like, oh, the same symbol if you look at but in different cultures it's the it's a different name for a similar goddess.
This one's wrist has been punched This one's wrist has been punched out. But normally there's supposed to be a woman nursing a baby inside of the wrist part right there on that hand to Sabazios. Yeah, right there in the cave, she's supposed to be nursing the young god Sabazios before he can rise up to his higher form. It's all in there, dude. It's so crazy.
Yeah, you know that this in particular could just well, what if here this is just a big one. If this this hand the eye in the hand symbol going back to these Mediterranean roots and Hebrew even it's like that could have something to do with this theory that there were Hebrew people over here before.
Columbus, well before Columbus.
You know.
I'm looking at a location in Tennessee right now that I'm researching where there is a wall. It's one of these rock walls that's underground, similar to the one out in Texas, but people have dug it up. I found a couple of people who have dug it up. They claimed that there were Hebrew symbols on the wall, and
then there's other Hebrew artifacts. If you look at the Back creekstone that was found here in Tennessee, it was found really close to an old Cherokee city, but it had Hebrew on it, Paleo Hebrew.
So, Paleo Hebrew. That's that's the key right there. Pale so that's Phoenician. Paleo Hebrew is Phoenician.
Right, So this kind of looks like it might be a part of that whole Phoenician thing. The Phoenicians in North America potentially.
Yes, are all over it.
Yeah, and what if those were the people who had what if they were the ones who built the.
Mounds or you know, probably had some sort of inspiration. Again, it's like this cultural diffusion idea. You know, they're taking these ideas and they're using it the way that their values and everything else works. So you see a lot of inspiration, but they make it their.
Own well, to bring it back maybe to the primordial to the hand symbolism, like maybe in its primordial nature, this is white Tara, so she's associated with the North Star or North and she has the eye on exactly on her palm, and she's actually dispensing the gesture of boon giving so very interesting, meaning that she can grant anything within the three worlds. That's what they say. So it's very had a chance. But it's up to you. That's the difference with Buddhism. It's it's up to you.
You have to you have to decide you're going to do it or not. You have to get up there yourself.
Talking about doing it yourself and free will reminds me. And then we're talking about the hand, reminds me of the painting by Michelangelo Creation of Adam where God has his finger fully outstretched and Adam's finger is not and there is a gap between the two fingers. A lot of people have and Michaelangel goes on to say that it was to indicate the moment in Genesis when God gives the spark of life to man or Adam rather.
But what's interesting is that you would think that he because Michael Angel was so precise and so detail oriented, and he was a practiced anatomous, He was a closeted anatomius. He would go and dig up bodies and do autopsies and what have you. So he knew the human body very very I mean he goes on to create the David and he even molds you know that muscle within the forearm when you know you're lifting a specific finger.
So he knew specifically everything about the hand. And yet he paints a painting with Adam having a non outstretched finger, and so to me and a lot of scholarship indicated that Michael Langego Michelangelo was indicating that the non outstretched finger of Adam is indicating free will, is indicating it's there if you want it, you just have to reach for it. You'd have to strive for it, and indicated by the gap. So to build upon what Jen was saying, and then the hand.
Absolutely agree.
Yeah yeah, well see even like stuff I've said that I know in some ways, I guess like getting like religious. But you know, God, let's say I have to go back towards it. It's not coming towards me. So I can see that I have to make the decision. I have that experience. I have to actually make you do the work to make that happen.
Like that.
Uh, what else about this Jid is that is that a nipple showing that.
Is then I didn't mean to choose it for that, but then as soon as you pulled it up, I was like, I'm the next gonna love this.
So but.
You know what it's it's just extremely important. I think it's uh, it's it's so outer. Contra would say it's a symbol of her infinite mercy that she can produce the milk, but it's really a metaphor for like the nourishing of mankind, like Lisa was saying, like there's a wisdom process, a dialectical process with yes, you can describe it in like the biochemical mechanisms in the body. That's
totally legitimate and that happens. But then there's also like maybe like what you talk about, Nick, there's like these while that's happening, so at the same time, there's like other layers happening in your consciousness. So maybe they work together. Maybe that's like the secret sauce that like people have a hard time putting you know, all together at one time. Is like to get to that a special state like
you know easily or they're like readily. So I think that what I like about this image in particular, for our Obviously, Headless is great topic on hand symbolism. I like it because it's exactly what you said, Nick Nless. It's about free will. It's ultimately like up to people how they want to perceive reality. And that's also what as I said, what Tara means. She's very associated with this idea of loving kindness or Bodi cheetah, and so I think, like, how do you want to be in
the world. That's what it kind of says to me. It's like, do you want to focus on the primordial truth or do you want to you know, play in the great carnal ground.
That actually brings up the monkeys paw. It's the paw that grants you wishes, right, And so there's there's some kind of an aspect of that too. It's like, this is the free will that you have. You can grant these you can get these wishes, but it may come back and bite you in the ass. You know, the things that you think you want might not be that at all.
Tarn that thank you, Oh Jim, Do you have anything else on this one?
Uh?
No, But I do like that she has her third eye. I think that ties in to everything that we like everyone said tonight, And I think it is about perception. It's like, that's really what matters. That's what I've really learned in the last couple of months, like podcasting with you guys, and you know, on my own show as well.
But obviously in synthesis we do such interesting work, I think, but I've really learned that perception really matters, and it really matters like the story you tell and how you tell it.
Well very well said. Did anybody else have anything that they wanted to add?
I learned a lot from you guys about this stuff.
I took a lot of notes, you know, I always say, you know, similism plays a major part in our communication, and when you stick to the origins of the simbolism, you don't have all these different narratives that people are trying to create.
Oh you know another thing too, I thought of with the whole. I mean, I don't think it's why people do this, but that is a thing that you will do in the Maybe this is ruby I'm getting confused, but I think you actually, oh no, maybe, yeah, Like people normally go like that and then we like when they charge the corners, they make that handsomeone kind of projected out jay Z does that? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
That was also the one of the movements for the series The OA.
Yo, there was movements in the OA that I actually thought leg it was from the Exagrammars Ritual. It was like, looks like that added with a whole bunch of other ship that's a.
Little weirdy did the side of silence?
Yeah, yo, yo, you remember, Yo? You covered that on the fuck You Cover that shiit a long time ago? Holy shit, Yo. That was fun too because I had just recently watched it. Yeah, and you told me you want to talk about the OA, and I was like, oh, fuck yeah, just watched that ship. That ship was wild. You know that she would be interesting to cover. That ship is so deep that show.
There is so much in there. It's just it's crazy, layer upon layer of stuff that you can pull out of it.
Hell yeah, there's actually a no no you go, uh no, there's a There's another great show called The Magicians.
Now.
It is very hipster, millennial and a little annoying sometimes, but their magic system uses hand sigils. It's predicated on that kind of the Eastern ideas of mudras and like pathworking through the hands, but there's also other processes, so it's kind of they use a very syncretic way that they kind of imagine magic for the camera. So from
a magician's perspective, it's actually a really cool series. Like, yes, annoying characters aside, they you know, they they play with time, they play with space, they play with spirits, but they're not really religious, they're just magicians. So it's it's a very interesting series and it's also a book if people are interested. I'm not plugging it because I'm friends of them. I just think it's good.
I think it's got a lot of high camp factors and there's so many different reference is in there that make it kind of funny if you know what you're looking at, because again they do reference a whole lot of different systems and magic outside of that.
Yeah, see, this is the thing we can totally agree on this Headlics is that that is a great series and it's very millennial, very of that time. But it's a perfect encapsulation of like I think, interesting in modern ideas about magic, and it's not so contained in like crazy ritual performance. It's it's like, yeah, there's a chaos magic kind of maybe flavor to the whole thing. It's like, how can we problem solve?
Well, I mean that whole series on that mythical island that they went to inside of the C. S. Lewis novel, that was just yeah, I mean that was so on the nose. They had so many different references from my childhood right there, and all these lion, the witch and the wardrobe type references.
It's the inversion of the C. S. Lewis story in a funny way, right like, because it's a it's camp, but it's violent when they go to the C. S. Lewis world. Those people aren't nice. It's not like little gnomes. It's like the gnomes will eat your face, so you know, and I mean that's what I mean. It happens so many characters die and die in horrific ways, so it's a it's a very interesting show just from that perspective. And then sometimes they even get resurrected.
Right face right off. Can't trust the motherfuckers.
Just real quick. Sorry. The two things, there are certain primates that cannot fully extend their index finger. So that made me also think about like maybe week oh that was their thing so if you read the Book of Genesis, it mentions that God created trees to eat from or fruit that would bear fruit to eat from. And when you look at primate diet, primates are predominantly frugivores, predominantly frugi wars. And so then you have the talk of
fall of man. And then when you look at I guess the fossil record the moment that man started consuming animal flesh, you have the growth of the prefrontal cortex and all that other stuff. And then you have this painting where maybe you have an index finger that is unable to be stretched out because of anatomical differences, you know,
within the primate taxa. But then you have a movement of progression in the Homo sapien line that you were able to stretch out that finger and touch the finger of God because you've now moved into that evolutionary state of consciousness. Because remember God's encapsulated in the brain.
So what's that famous art piece that's in the ceiling that has the touching guys.
It's called Creation of Atom by Michael Angelo.
Yeah, when I was at it, I have mentioned this before. When I was at the Vatican, they said that they actually to acknowledge that that's the brain. I was like, oh, all right, okay, I mean you know I thought that anyway, but I was like, all right, right. It was a little bit surprised actually to hear that. Yeah, they're even like go ahead, sorry, go ahead, no, I talk for sure.
I find more tracing boards with that hand of Providence in it, but I can't really find them anymore in my mind. That's a strong association, you know, Yeah, yeah, you see those things like every once in a while, and know I'll notice them like on like a video like I'm watching, like on something that's not even on that topic.
I'll just see the fucking hand like in the painting that they're showing, and I'm like, oh, there's that fucking hand again, Like what was what's up with that motherfucker? But uh, it's like the hand from a oh god, I can't remember. I was a scream or whatever with Chris Elliotts sticking his hand in the fucking mashed potatoes, just got that fucked up all. He'd be like one of those coming down from this. I don't know if I even want to fucking reach out for that one.
I was thinking Operation Blue beard a giant.
Look at that.
You gotta check out that nine inch Nails album cover. Man, I'm telling you because they were even saying that whenever Resner put that album out that he was somehow alluding to the coming disclosure UFO disclosure movement. But that's the that's the album cover. It's like it looks like a real giant hand of God coming out of the sky.
It's crazy, all right.
I guess, uh, I guess we'll wrap it up the uh. There's a whole lot of ship right there, a lot of I plug themselves again on the shows or whoever they want to promote. We'll start it off with you, Lisa again. They called reject mad scientist what is going only? So thank you very much for joining us tonight show.
Thank you had for bringing up the amazing topic to bring us all together in this wonderful panel where we just converse and commune among ourselves with the topic. Thank you fellow rejects for allowing me to interject my weird stuff. But thank you Neix for inviting me to plug is only a cult research Institute dot org And if you'd like to find me, it's so lease.
Lisa.
Thank you awesome. Thank you very much. Appreciate you enjoying us and we got you the ninja.
Thank you boss for tolerating meat tonight. And I know it was quite a talkative, but I made up for all those times where I was quiet.
Were third eyes and nipples I can't combine.
Okay, well that's guy. You liked it, so thank you so much, Lisa. I don't think it's weird. I think it's super interesting. I love that we can talk about plants and biology, Tyrone. I'm always in all of how much you know ag on fire tonight for real and Tim. Honestly, I love that we have that kind of dynamic that we I tease you a little and you kind of push back. It's really great. Honestly, I think it's interesting. So thank you so much. It's a true honor to
be with the panel. And if you want to check me out Threshold Saints and the Great Lodge. And we do have a YouTube channel now run by.
Mister Okay, that all right? Nice? You can have to give me the link for that, I'll include it. Do you have it on you have a link tree? Yeah?
I have a link tree is yeah?
Is it on there?
Yeah? I have to put it on. I've been really bad about updating it. Will I promise, I will, I promise, I will.
Yeah, I appreciate it, of course. And then we uh, we got iron what's going on?
I think, thank you.
I appreciated Agent for those kind words.
Man.
I appreciate that.
This is a good discussion.
I learned a lot, took some notes down. It's always a good day when you learn something. You know, that was saying you learned something new every single day. So this was the day that I definitely learned a lot because of these three discussions that we had today. So my mind is kind of bloomed, but I enjoyed every moment of that. I love talking to you guys. I enjoyed this a lot. This is a passion of mine
of learning as much as I can about everything. And of course, everything that you can find on me is on my website, Rebirth of theWord dot com. I have you know, YouTube, Twitter and all that other stuff, but that's all through my website. You can go in there and find that. I also have a best selling book, Journey through the Origins of History, and I appreciate everybody that put their knowledge out there.
So I can gain it from them.
Thank you, of course, thank you, sir. Appreciate it and we gotta have actually do Tim Constantine, please, sir, everybody know what's uping?
Hey, yeah, very enlightening, happy to be here, happy to learn some stuff today. Sixth Censory Podcast is my main gig. Six spell it out among all the major platforms. And yeah, appreciate the invite.
Oh of course, thank you, sir. I appreciate it. And hell is John. Thank you very much for the topic. It was a fun one. It was very interesting. I mean, honestly, there's like so many different places we can still go with that. Honestly, with that topic, so many different things. But thank you again, and please let everybody know where they can find your amazing show and where to send those weird dreams.
Thank you, Nick. This is a great topic. I love going into all these different things and having all these different sources of knowledge that I'll weave back together again, which is one of the major things that I want to get across about hand symbolism. It's fractal, it's gonna spread out, and it's everywhere. So this is partially why it's so important in the sensory homunculous. Right, if you think about what it looks like inside of your brain.
You've got the huge face, you've got these giant hands, right. The hands are almost bigger than the brain area, right, Because the whole idea is you've got to experience the world in a tactile way. And that's what really gets the hands as this powerful symbol because it's like this other sense, the more we get online and stuff like that, the less we're using our hands, and the less we think with our hands. And that's sort of like, I guess, a lack in that balance. You know, you've got to
get back into nature. You got to use your hands. You got to be like hy Festus, you know, make something, play sports, do something with your hands. That's part of your brain, that's part of your mental health, you know. So hand symbolism is important for that very reason. It goes into all those aspects of our lives. So you can find me at Headless Giant Podcast at gmail dot com if you want to get those stories into me
for Thursdays when I read your emails. And also you've got the Trialogues which is tomorrow with Ethan and Ricardo. So thank you very much for having me. Thank you for this panel. I think a lot of people had good time. And man I look forward tomorrow.
Hell yeah, no, thank you very much, and uh yeah, thank you everybody in the chat. That's what's Up. There was a lot of people here and uh, you know, you made a good point. I can't believe we forgot the fucking homoculous with its big hands. Oh man, see that's it again. That's another whole thing to talk about. Uh. When you said that, I was like, fuck nice. Uh yeah again, thank you everybody in the chat. That's what's Up. Had a good show, and thank you everybody that was
there from the beginning to the end pretty much. You know, everybody's still there. That's what's up. And thank you Wolf for spending the time to come on tonight, and everybody was here all day. I appreciate that. That's what's up. And until the next one, everybody be well later.