Everything that I had believed prior to understanding how the world works was completely shattered. And I think in that point my opinion, I think, you know, shadow work is very very important to even have this experience, but I think it's going to actually be much more If that is important, you know, it's not as important, but much more important dealing with what's going to go through your head after.
You have this experience of trying to make sense of it.
And that could be I guess maybe my dark Knight of the soul, because it's like one I realized I've probably been lied to, a miss understood, and now I have to sit here and try to think am I crazy and have I lost it?
Or am I actually aunts?
And that gets scary, so like even like progressively or even maybe the last one.
But it had brought me to that, to even going to the hospital.
There was just like a lot of stuff that was shattering my ideas of existence.
I don't know what it is.
That made me think this, but because of one of those experiences, something just popped up in my head and said, look into the eyeballs in the brain. I don't know why, And then I started looking into that and I was like Jesus fucking Christ. There's so many sigils and symbolism and in here it's fucking insane. And then you start realizing, like what I thought magic is the idea that the
Oto gave me or any other place the Satan. And I think I was a little bit resentful for that to begin with, because if what I do think is actually happening, and if I really did experience crossing the Abyss, I think you should be a little bit more open about what somebody is going to go through and what
their experience is going to be. Stop with so many fucking secrets, because I don't think it's healthy for somebody to have that experience not really knowing what the fuck they're doing, because again, if you're not mentally strong enough for it, I do think it will warp your mind and fuck you up. Do you think I'm not patting myself on the back saying I was a gangster because I dealt with some serious shit in my head to be able to catch where I am now after these experiences.
HI welcome to Beneath the Bloom. I'm Syria Saint Sinclair. Beneath the Bloom is a passion project born from my endless curiosity about people and their stories. I am a persepane dvote and it is a reflection of my work with her. Beneath the Bloom follows the myth of her transformation. It starts in the meadow, then the descent into the underworld, and ultimately her sovereigny. Turns conversations with witches, occultists, seekers,
and fellow wanderers. We explore the threads that connect us, the endurance, the reclamation, and the quiet beauty of choosing meaning in a world that often misunderstands us. Through conversation, we explore what it means to fall apart, to rediscover ourselves into bloom again, each in our own unique way, and somehow we all go through it collectively. Beneath the Blue uses storytelling, humor, and raw vulnerability to explore how personal practice, shadow work, and devotion helps us bloom in
the dark. These conversations are not just interviews, they're mythic maps of transformation. Hi, welcome to Beneath the Bloom. Conversations rooted and personal truth, shadow paths, and the sacred blossom into sovereignty. Today, my guest is Nick with the Occult rejects.
Welcome, Nick, thank you very much for having me on. Appreciate it.
So Nick is originally from New York and now in North Carolina. He's been studying the occult for over a decade and was a member of the Oto is it Ta Hoodi to Hoodi Lodge for a few years. He's big into the Kabbala, planetary magic and theragy. He also tries to come from an academic and scientific angle, and it's not all dicks and demons. According to his words, welcome, and so I want to go ahead and start off with the meadow where let's go ahead and start with
like where are you from? And when did you come first come across the occult or become an occultist?
Like again, I originally grew up in New York. It was a Suffolk County. I lived down in ron Konkoma when I was a child, So right there, like that's even a big thing that I sometimes refer back to even when I'm on my own show or on other shows. The fact of I don't know if because there ron Konkoma was known. First off, everywhere I lived had Native American streets, so we were already had the idea that was Native Americans buried underneath the houses and there might
be spirits. We had Lake Ronkonkoma that had a story with it that every year the princess of the lake would take a mail because of some story about wanting to marry a white guy when she was younger. The faller said no, and somehow they both you know, almost Romeo and Juliet both dead somehow at the end. So now she always takes a male. And as long as I live there, that always happened. At least one dude
every year drowned in that lake. So we're just like yo, you know, as a kid, yeah, you start thinking this stuff is like, you know, real. So even as a child, probably with all that stuff from around me, I was
already open to just paranormal and myths and lore. I did kind of grow up in somewhat of a religious household, and you know, Christians slash kind of like Catholic, and I think due to that, I mean, you have to start worrying about the devils, and eventually I'm gonna get intrigued by that as well, I guess.
At some point, you know what I'm saying.
So it's just you know, I just even think that whole economy or that whole situation that just made me very interested in everything, you know, like well, you know, well, who's this character that supposedly is going to you know, make me do all.
These bad things.
So just even as as grown up as a kid, growing up, I think I was just very interested in just the idea of heaven and hell. I believed again, like in the paranormal. My my father and mother even believed in ghosts. They thought the house might have been haunted at times. So all that stuff, I'm sure had something to do with just me being open to unusual things, I guess, or.
You know, not the normal.
Uh there was at times there was satanic panic in our neighborhood too, believe it or not.
Growing up so again like this stuff is in my.
Face, And I guess as a child, I was a little bit more inquisitive than.
Scared to where I was like, oh, what is this stuff?
Like what's going on? You know, why is that bad? And not saying it's not bad. I want to know, like what it is, what is it that makes that bad? And I mean to the point where it's like even a few houses down looking at it. Now, I couldn't tell you if there were satanic. I mean even that
word itself. I mean it's missed whatever. You know what I'm getting at the way people it is wrong in my opinion, But growing up, I thought there was satanic because like they they had cars that literally had sigil spray painted on them and you hear them blasting, well actually playing.
They had a band playing death metal out of the house.
So to me, I'm thinking this is like basically moment Angel lived down, you know, lives down the box for me, and I got satist and you know, as and your parents are telling you, the neighbors are talking about it. You know, these people are weird. So like I even think I got Satanists living on my block. And then at one point down the road, crazy story. People can look it up and ron Khan Khama. Some kid thought
Dungeons and Dragons told him to kill his parents. So we off to one of them, whoa, yeah, so now we got like, you know, Dungeons and Dragons, and you know this occult game that's telling kids to kill people, is you know, actually doing it. Well, the kid was play sick anyway, But you know what I'm saying, so I got that going on, and then you no, lie. Two years later, this is the craziest thing. That house that that kid did that in was on a corner
house at a light. A couple of years later, somebody blew the light and ended up in an accident and went into the house and killed the rest of the people.
He didn't kill and he just like what they hit them with the car through the house. What went through the house and killed people?
She di too. Uh No, he was jil oh, okay, God if he.
Wasn't in he wasn't in that house anymore. I can tell you that, you know.
I mean he was young enough to maybe went into like you know, uh, your mental institute instead of jail.
I don't know.
Yeah, how old are you? M M.
This might have been before my teens.
Oh that's really scary, That's what I'm saying.
Like, yeah, yeah.
There was one time where animals were going missing in a neighborhood and the whole rumor was that the Satanist were killing.
Them, you know, and who knows even what it was.
I don't know, maybe people's animals, which just I mean our dog maybe just hopped defense and didn't come back that.
You know, I'm saying that's quite possible.
Mm hmm.
But you know, just having all this stuff in.
My life growing up, especially like oh little Satan, Satan Satan. I guess you know. I'm in North Carolina. It's also considered the biggest occult state, I think, in the country. And I think it's due to the fact that, I mean, you have the Bible belt going through here. When you have something forced in your face, it's just gonna be a reaction at some point to go to the complete opposite or be intrigued by the other end. I think that's kind of what happened to me having that stuff
constantly in my face. I just got interested in all of it. So, like long story short, throughout school, uh, you know, it was interested in you know, paranormal.
UFOs, you know, bigfoot stuff like that.
I had a few friends that were considered themselves wicked, and I thought they were pretty cool, and like you know, I would talk to them sometimes and ask them about their stuff. I thought it was really interesting. But I guess, like you know, neither maybe afraid to get into it or just whatever. Got other stuff. I'd rather play my
guitar or I don't know stuff like that. But eventually, like fast forward, probably like into my mid twenties, I started getting a little bit more into like conspiracy stuff, but like the stuff I came across was more like Michael Tassarian, who's that that, Mark Passio, David Ike, Jordan Maxwell, people that, you know, people that kind of heavily touch on the occult anyway, and that may not necessarily always
do it in a bad light either. That interested me a lot more when I started getting into the cult, because I did believe, going back to when I was in school, I did believe that these people that are into that stuff were probably legit.
So I believe that it actually works.
You know, I believe this stuff was real because it was throughout my face honestly, even like I've been talking about this supposed Satanists down the road, you know, I'm already you know, due to all that, I believe this stuff is real. So I'm taking the occult as you know, real, which you know it is to me. So I got interested in that stuff and listen to a lot of things, a lot of lectures, you know, a lot of podcasts.
Well there really wasn't podcasts back then. Actually, it was more of like long form YouTube videos really, and I got into this stuff, would research on my own, just to look up different things. And after a while, at some point, I was like, you know, I know all these orders, I know all these names and all these supposed bad people. I zero have zero clue what the hell magic still is. I have no idea, you know,
So like, where is this getting me? Because I actually want to try to understand what his magic was the occult, like what's going on there? So I was like, maybe I should actually like join an order, you know, this time yet now at this point, I'm into.
My thirties at some point, okay, and.
Yeah, I was started thinking maybe I should like try to like visit one of these places, you know. And at this point already okay, at this point, I would have already bought books.
I think I had Donald Michael.
Craig's Lessons in Ceremonial Magic or Lessons of Magic, whatever that book is.
I had that book.
I had a few other books that I was already reading, already starting to practice like certain things, and it was I started I can't remember exactly because I don't want to make a wrong accusation on somebody, but somebody's work that had libor rush in it did not match Crowley's libor rush it like one of the things was moving around, and I was like, well, why that's not the original thing. Like so like now I'm thinking in my head, like
can I not even trust books? And I got to go to the orders themselves and actually have somebody there this stuff to me. I started thinking like maybe I should get involved and learn from other people and have people to learn from. Yeah, I mean to have people
to talk to too and stuff. And so I sort of looking and there was some people that I knew that were already in the community from being on like Facebook groups or just like on social media kind of like lurking and just talking to a few people here
and there. And I knew somebody was in the Masons, and they were like, dude, like you're gonna waste your time for a long time before you can even start getting into rituals because they're not even gonna act like that shit exists at a certain certain degree.
So I was like, all right, just screw that. There wasn't a golden doorn near me.
I actually would have probably have preferred that that's what I was looking more for because I thought I might have been a little bit more like academic or a little bit more studious. And but then I happened to notice all this and Oto Lodge twenty five minutes away from my house. I was like, I was like, you know, I've read Crowley stuff. I even read some.
You know, it was interesting. He has a lot of shit in prison.
Believe it or not, I was in prison at one point and he had tons of stuff that guy's books floating around. I had heard of him prior to them, but I had come across more of his stuff in there and read it and still thought it was just like, Yo, this shit's nonsense. It makes no fucking sense to me. I actually thought it was a bunch of garbage, and
I was like, I don't get it. But then I was like still eventually, like you know, when I was out of prison and started getting into practicing more, and when I came across the Oto and his work, I some reason at that point I was like, yeah, there's something here. I just don't think I was able to even conceive what the guy was talking about then, so I was like, you know, I'll try the Oto. It had a little bit more of it's maybe a little bit more different imagery than I was looking for. It's
a little bit more darker looking. But uh, I was like, oh fuck, I'll try it out. And then when I got there, I was like, oh, these people all like harmless.
Nice people. Yeah.
Yeah, they're all just nerds like me honestly, and so yeah. So but eventually I was like, you know what, let me go, let me hit this place up. And you know, these secret societies aren't as secret as people think they are, or at least hiding themselves. Maybe they're mysteries and mysteries they might keep secret like the stuff that you can learn, but their existence they don't hide it. So it was
really easy. I mean, I'm sure you would know. It's really easy to go find these places if you want to go find them.
You know, they.
Themselves so yeah, well they also they want people to come there too.
They have bills to pay, like you know what I'm saying, like it would help.
So I found a hoodie lodge and I was like, oh, we'll go to a Gnostic mass and I think there was one like a month away, which to Hoodi Lodge has like every weekend, very active lodge a lot of people, and I will say the Gnostic Mass is done. Correct there, I'll give them that too. We were talking about that earlier. I when I hit them up, they were like, that's a month from now. They're like, just hit us up again and we'll give you directions on how to get here.
Want to come? I was like, all right, not a problem.
Uh So at that point I had even watched the Gnostic Mass on YouTube Chuck checked it out.
I was like, Oh, no problems. It looks a little weird.
Well, it looks a little weird maybe to other people, but to me, I was just like, yeah, this is no big deal. I can handle this, and uh I went Eventually I hit them up I think a couple of days before the Gnostic Mass, and then they had given me directions or you know, the address and stuff
and let me know how to get there. I will say, first going there, I don't want to give like too much away on how they are with like talking about them, you know, specifically, but like this setup was weird because it was in like an apartment building, so you can't just walk in.
There was like a gated it's like a gated place. So in the directions.
It tells you, like, you know, across the street from the lodge, there's a park. They'll sit at the bench and like there'll be people out there, and I'm like, what the fuck.
So they're like i'd like driving and un parking, and I'm like walking down the road and I see, I'm just gonna keep it.
Realized saw like a group I looked like goth kids, and I was like, oh, that's that's good. Yeah, they're all wearing black. You know, it's probably the guy, you know, the people there. So I walked over and just you know, all hung out. And then I saw a guy come out with the key on locking the gate, being like all right, you know, I was like, oh, okay, this just makes sense. You can't just walk in, you know.
It almost made me feel a little bit safe. Actually, I know, some crazy guy, you know, you want to get some school shooters showing up. He's probably not gonna get in right away, you know. But so I was like, all right, that made sense. But at the first, you know, at the beginning, I was already like, okay, this is getting weird. But so I finally went downstairs, you know, hung out, you hang out in the main room for
a while and then you know, people bullshitting. I'm sitting there just nervous, like what the fuck am I doing here?
And starts up and I will say for people like, I'm not vanilla.
But it did freak me out because I was like, Okay, on YouTube, they don't show titties, So when that shit came out, I was just like, Yo, what the fuck's going on now? I was like, Yo, this shit turns into eyes white shut, I'm getting the fuck out of you. And I'm like, yo, Like literally, I'm like standing there. You haven't been to a mask, so like you don't know what, like two rows of people and then you have everything going up there and I'm like kind of
in the back. So it's just I just got this whole view and I'm just like, yeah, like I'm really here.
Right now, Yeah happening.
And I was like and two weeks later I went back, no, I will say, you know, and I don't know if maybe maybe she was smart about it too. The priestess, you know, the one with the tits out, approached me after the fact and was like, you know, we sometimes we do classes, So I don't know if it was already like, you know, that uncomfortable, weird situation, or maybe she thought I might have enjoyed what I saw, you know,
who knows. Was trying to like, at least talk to me and tell me that there's other things here besides this. We have some classes sometimes we cover people's history, and I was like, you know what, I think I'll come back for something else m And I did, and I thought it was really good. So I was like, you know what, I don't think I'll just stay and I'll get used to the uncomfortability of just random boobs, you know what I'm saying. I mean, it's normally not a
thing a guy and normally complains about. But it was it was just, you know, it was a little weird.
In it's still if you're not it.
Yeah, I was like, oh, I should have watched the other one on vimeo.
Yeah, but uh yeah.
But I eventually stayed, Uh did a couple of initiations, met a few good people, some that I still actually keep in contact with. Uh yeah, I mean I had my own eventually, you know, and I just you know, eventually COVID came and that.
Was just a huge, horrible, big issue.
So I mean, eventually I just kind of left anyway, I don't know if I want to get into that or not put and I could be as nice as possible about it, but I just didn't feel like it was really a place for me that much anymore. It is the situation. It was like, well, you're not even open, so what the fu point? I eventually just stopped going and just kind of went off on my own with my own experiences that I started to have. I mean, I I do, I do make the claim and I
do believe that I have crossed to the abyss. So at that point, I was just like, what do I need to go back there for anyway?
Like that happened?
Why I wasn't going there because for a while, because of COVID are just not being interested in that place as much, I wasn't going, and I was doing a lot more stuff at home, a shadow work, rituals, theorgy, and I eventually had my own experience and that kind of was just like I don't know how to say this without it like I don't want it to come out the wrong way, because again there was really you know, the people there are really good people and they're just
looking for something and most of them are nerds, but I feel like some of these organizations unfortunately kind of hand you or give you the image of the vices and not the virtues. And I just felt for myself at that time. I just didn't see that place offering me anything that much anymore.
So I left.
That's well, and I'll still talk to people from there, have people on my show that are associated with that place, so it's just for.
Me m hm.
So but yeah, uh, And I will say I'm very glad that that experience happened because I know who I am, what I want and what I don't want now, So you know, it was all it's all learning, It was all it all needed to happen, in my opinion, for me to be who I am today.
Yeah, I'm sure you learned a lot from the process. It doesn't happen to Yeah, you know, it doesn't have to. You don't have to be a part of something for forever for it to be meaningful and impactful. And I think that it's an important skill to learn when something isn't right for you anymore.
Oh yeah, Yeah, definitely people there that I will never forget that I have definitely like left an impact in my life.
Yeah, especially if you saw titties for the person You're like, Okay, this is an impact for sure.
Yeah.
Do you do you still find ways of finding community now or do you miss having communities like a soler practitionering you prefer that you.
Know what that has changed over time? Uh? When I first left, I don't. I think I was.
I had misdirected anger and or resentment, and I kind of like put myself away from like not just the OTO but like old magical community and it kind of just like started, you know, podcasting, And due to that, I kind of tried to start off in the conspiracy community first, wanting to like decode and like you know, from my experience, this is one thing I'll say, from my experience with crossing the Abyss, I feel like that is the only time I actually understood what my true will is.
I do believe this.
May sound corny to come from an occultist, but I do believe I actually have a mission from God or I have a purpose. My purpose is to help people understand the occult and know that it's not old just Dixon demons, that there's science in there and it can actually bring you to have an experience with God and change you for better, and that's what I want to do. So I kind of tried to do that in the occult community. The conspiracy community first, uh to you know,
because it's very extremely like demonized the occult. I mean everything is blamed on fucking al Stacroley and John de Satanic, everything's molesting kids, you know, it's just you know, they have I'll be totally honest with you, people in the conspiracy community actually probably think about six Ship in their head more than the fucking worst the cultist. Do they obsess over everybody doing this stuff that it's all they think about.
That's an interesting point.
Yeah, I mean put it this way, and I will.
There's people that I'm actually close to that I may not like you their style. But if you're going to talk about Alista Crowley and Michael Aquino all day, and you're going to talk about these supposed horrific things that they did, if those aren't true, you're actually painting pictures in people's heads of some horrific shit for no reason. You are actually fucking worse than those men. You're putting horrid ideas in people's heads that aren't even real. Because
you want money and clicks. That's sick, that's black magic, you know. But uh so I wanted to try to change a little bit of that and lighten it up.
And I do think it has helped, at least in the area that I am.
And I mean there's a different clicks in different groups and circles within the occult and conspiracy community, but I have definitely impacted a decent amount of people and to the point to where I started feeling more comfortable.
Even within the time of me having.
That magical experience in starting my podcast, I may not have been so much inte ritual stuff, but I have continued to study, you know, especially Cabbala and you know, looking at people from the fifteen sixteen hundreds, twelve hundreds that empedoicles's even older, you know, the BC, looking at what they're looking at and studying and try to get into that, which is another reason why I do get into physiology a lot, because why these people looking at
the brain, the nervous system, and the eyeballs.
That's the reason for it.
I started getting into that and studying that a lot, and eventually I felt more comfortable enough to even show up more in the occult community and say I actually think I have something to say that you should listen to. You know, if a conspiracy theorists, I thought it was a little bit easier because they have zero fucking clue half the time what they're talking about. So I figured I just got to say a few words that they don't even understand them.
They'll think I'm smart. It's not like manshole.
I get to say a couple of spools off the cabbalistic train, They'll be like, what the fuck was that?
You know, They'll be like, oh, this Scot's stromp, the Scot's s proke over gas.
You know.
No, I've literally had people on my show like I have so many co hosts, or I used to that, like there was one or two people who were not into this, and I had me and one of my co hosts on that r and we got to do it all for the Croatia, and the whole time we were talking insane shit. The other two people had nothing to say because they literally had no idea what I was saying. Yeah, So eventually, again I felt more comfortable being myself, or you know, I was a little bit
more educated in the field of the occult. So I was like, you know what, I that and it just I just I felt like that I was covering the occult enough to where I could start really segueing into that community, which I've really only been doing like.
The last year, tell you the truth, the last eight months.
So it's like even that's you know, meeting you and Ivy is like kind of fairly you know, new for this whole thing. But yeah, so I started feeling a little bit more confident in that, and uh, kind of since then, I mean, it's kind of been like full steam ahead. I mean a lot of the people on the show, I mean, we're all at this point now everybody on the show is actually practicing people. We all practice. We all have our own different beliefs too. We don't
all follow the same pantheons. We don't all talk about the same gods. There's people on my show that the physiology, the eyeballs in the brain not even a thought of theirs. I mean, they find what I say is interesting, but that's not what they spend time on.
They may want to spend time on the gods, you know, or other things or alchemy. You know.
One of my guys on my show is doing an alchemy show. Now every Monday, the guys are doing something. I'm waiting for them to love themselves up at one point, Like another guy on my show, he's into Buddhism. You know what I'm saying, Like, we all have all our different areas, and between all of us, I think that we actually can provide a very comprehensive look at the topics that we do. One of the ways I try
to like make a joke about it. Two ways wu tang with the occult of conspiracies where you have everybody's that's got their own thing to add and we just put it together and you get one bad ass track or Crowley's seven to seven seven. How you have all the different associations in there of a way to look at that, I'll have this person is into the Greek Pantheon,
me into the Egyptian my friend who was into the Buddhism. Well, you know what I'm saying, You're starting to get all the associations that way, So you have different ways of looking at it, you know, because I do believe in the past, like when I was mentioning with these older people, they were all polymaths, you know, our school system isn't even designed.
For us to be polymaths anymore.
We're screwed because these polymaths, besides the occult again, they're adding music into it. The music of the spheres. I mean, you know that was huge again, the eyeballs, the brain, the nervous system. I mean, I think you know Saint Hildegarde, you know, unfortunately Catholic Church. She was a saint, but she was also an alchemist. If it wasn't for her, iron may to not be here because she invented harmonizing.
She had women singing for her, and she noticed if you took one chick ladies on this side and one lady's on this side and changed the octave, you.
Were like, wow, this sounds amazing.
You know, these people and handed us the world that we're living in now. And uh, I forgot where I.
Was going with that.
So you still consider yourself that delimite, right?
Yeah? I mean unfortunately.
I asked Lin that too, and that was kind of a similar answer.
Yeah.
Well, yo, what I'm gonna keep it real right now.
And this this may even this may even wrestle some feathers, but it is what it is.
Uh.
Again, I look at the occult, you know, from a lot of angles, but I am more my opinion, there's a lot of symbolism in a cult, in the occult that references the eyeballs in the brain. I try to look at it that way. I do believe Alista Crowley was doing the same thing. A lot of people in the organization, for some reason, would rather that guy be known as some drug addict sex fiend than being intelligent.
I don't get that.
You your order or he has a bad name, and you resist on making this guy actually seem smart. To where they and any tell the mine I talk to you, they think I'm fucking crazy, and it's like, yo, I'm sorry, I actually want to give your fucking god that you all put up on a pedestal actually saying that he might have been saying something really fucking intelligent, and you
don't want to give the guy credit. So I mean, the fact of just the way the organizations looked at and the way that people in the organization seem to want this guy to be continuously looked at. It's almost embarrassing to say you're a part of it. Which maybe that's why Lynn. I don't know why her situation is. But for me, it's due to the way society looks at that organization and due to the people in that organization that want to keep it looking screwed up for
some fucking silly reason. It's uncomfortable to say that, yes, I am a fellow mine. I do think Alista Crowley was onto something. I could care less what he did in his personal life. I don't care who sucked his dick or who he fucked. I don't care. I want to know what the hell that guy was doing with the occult, because I think he was a genius when he came to it. I've looked at his papers in Austin, Texas.
The Voice of the Vision, when you see the amount of jamatria that guy was doing, his shit is ciphered.
This guy was saying a lot of stuff.
People don't even want to give him that credit that much, even in the order when you look at him putting rose on the side and doing the math for it, because he's sticking it inside his book. He's not talking about his girlfriend anymore. I hate to tell you, bro, he's doing something else in there, you know. And uh, That's why I will consider myself a film at in the census, because I do think whatever he was doing
in the occult, that man was onto something. And I'm interested in what the fuck he was saying.
I'm interested in your opinion where like and.
I went real quick, I know it's just screwed up. I messed up. It is not that I'm trying to say this guy was better, but I think.
I at least want to give the guy a little bit better of an image saying this dude wasn't saying fucking babble.
He was saying something deep. He wasn't just a degenerate pervert.
He put that shit in ciphers, so you get disgusted and don't even look at it. Only the people who don't fear will find what he'll be saying.
HM. My next question for you is why do you think that? Because now I'm having back to back episodes with people who are a little bit disenchanted with the OTO. I'm curious about your opinion and why you think that is, Like, why there's something happening here at least like from my experience the people I've talked to.
I don't know. I want to try to answer this. I think, like, in the nicest way, and.
You don't have to answer it if you don't want to.
Oh, no, I want to UH one I will take I can't say that quote exactly, but quote crally in one way. And I think this is an issue with the OTOH. It confusing sympathy for empathy. Well, people being sympathetic instead of empathetic. It's going to fucking ruin humanity.
That order.
I seem to want to focus more on I think feelings and other people than actually what magic is. I don't know any other way to say it without starting to get too uh detailed.
I don't think I understand what is? What is? What is?
The uh? All right?
Just like the AA, the O t O shouldn't be actually worried about anything outside of that organization. So my opinion, you should not be sending me a zoom meeting to talk about George Floyd situation. Why is that a zoom meeting for the ot O. Why are we talking about racism and Antifa that has nothing to do.
To the OTO.
That man, whatever happened, I'm just keeping it real, regardless of what you saw was even real, instead of Nazi magic. UH doesn't affect my will unfortunately, but I would.
Argue, it doesn't affect you because you're a white man.
If I was black, it still would affect me because I was the one on the floor.
What do you mean.
That didn't happen to me?
So when other people get hurt, it doesn't it doesn't affect you.
No, it can. But to the point to where I'm gonna forget myself.
No, you don't think that you can both stand up for other people and all.
See again, Oh yeah you can, Yeah, for sure. I'm gonna now for myself for a cult this, But I'm not.
It's just uh. I'll put it this way.
If when I was there they started talking about the Soldier Boys, I would.
Have told them to shut the fuck up.
I don't know what that is.
Well, that's a right wing group.
I don't want to hear politics in a fucking place that's supposed to be about magic, because all that's going to do is create division, division, and all this does, all politics does is create division and hate. If you're an actual magician, you should realize this fucking shit slavery.
Why am I paying attention to it?
M You don't think that that make people act crazy.
I think that it makes people act crazy because change needs to happen, and to think that the politics don't affect your magic sphere, your rights in general, Like it might start off with something that feels disconnected from you, but eventually they will come after you. It is it is civil rights. At some point it will affect your right. So caring about other people in the end will also
protect you and protect your rights. Because if black people do not have the freedoms that they need, if Mexican Americans are don't have a breads but they need your next.
Yes, but the whole thing that's an organization that's supposed to be about magic. Why am I hearing about other things? It could have been fucking anything else. Honestly, I also didn't agree that. I mean, the church's doors are open, and Horace is too scared. Why is the place closed because of COVID The churches are open. I didn't agree with that either. I thought that was a little silly yo.
And then to tell us that ninety three percent of the people voted that they are not comfortable going there being vaccinated.
When I can tell you me.
Jason, Jordan, Michael, and probably about five other people never got that survey, So how did you get ninety three percent, which sounds cute for the OTO. Sure to tell everybody that now you can't even come in unless you get jabbed.
Fuck you.
I'm supposed to be a magician, yet I'm going to be under someone's thumb.
Who you fucking crazy?
I hear what you're saying. I just think I just won't go.
If people are scared, then I'll just stay home and practice on my own.
I just think that you are separating things that aren't necessarily separated, like these things do affect each other. And I get what you're saying, right, you're there for magic. You don't necessarily want to hear someone's personal opinion. I
get that, I totally do. But I don't think that you can exist in a sphere where politics don't affect you and affect your rights, like especially nowadays, like the politics are infringing on people's rights every single day, and that will come for your ability to practice magic at some point. But you know there's other steps to get there.
I mean, yeah, doing that in a jail, so it would probably suck. But I mean I could practice magic just by closing my eyes. That's all I have to do.
Yeah, But you you don't want you don't want rights for yourself, you don't want freedom for yourself.
No, yeah, it again. I just don't understand why.
I'm just saying it's an organization that's not supposed to be to looking about that is, and it just was weird and uncomfortable.
Again, they could have been fall right.
Now I would actually feel more comfortable tell them to go suck a dick if they were fall right, tell you the truth.
Neither one I want to hear about.
Why would you feel more comfortable telling them it's like a dick about if they were far right though, because you disagree with.
Well, if I tell somebody on yeah, actually have course, I do sick. I mean, it's just shit. I'm Nazis all the time on my show.
Sure, yes, it's a good thing to do. But I just feel like you're saying there shouldn't be politics. But then you have double standards when it comes to politics.
Oh no, I should on both sides.
Yeah, I will show the way both sides mentally manipulate us to get us into conversations like this. Now.
Well, I mean I don't think that we're separated. I think I'm just having a conversation with you because I'm interested genuinely understanding your point of view. Like I think it's I think it's very interesting when people try to separate magic from politics. I think that like they affect each other, whether we like it or not, and we can pretend like they because it's kind of convenient, But ultimately we live in a country where, like it affects her every day, it affects our lives. And I would
love separation of church and state. I would absolutely love that, but unfortunately that's just not our existence. But I agree with you. I do think that, Like, I mean, put.
It this way, since Trump got elected again, I haven't paid attention to the fucking news, and I ain't seem pretty happy, and I don't feel oppressed.
You don't feel oppressed, No, I mean, I have.
No idea what the fucking retod's doing, and I feel totally fine. I don't pay attention to the news anymore. It's cancer.
Well, I think that the reason you don't feel affected is because you're a white male. I feel affected.
And even when Biden was in what was so horrible that happened to all of us? Nothing? Well, the shit the right was saying that was gonna happen. Nothing happened. It's all fucking propaganda.
Well, I think that the fact that, like there are Mexican Americans being taken from their homes that they lived in for years, that does affect my life in a very active, real way as someone who is very I'm not Mexican American myself, as someone who's very close to the Mexican American community. Yeah, there are things that are definitely affecting my life, and I feel like it doesn't It doesn't affect you because of your position and who you are.
I paid attention to it would piss me off. I don't want to know what the shit he's doing.
I think he's a fucking psycho, and that's why I don't pay attention to his sick because then I'll get triggered. I'll be worrying about what he's doing instead of writing a show for myself.
Yeah, I definitely understand, But I also think that that's a privilege to disconnect and be able to be fine. But I don't blame you for I think it's very natural to want to focus on the things that you can control, and I think a lot of times that is an active self preservation, which is important.
I mean, the guy's rolling pre crime in I should be freaking the fuck out, and I'm not. I'm going to focus on my work.
Yeah yeah, And eventually it'll affect your work. It will affect your ability to speak about your work. So I don't know, probably hopefully not. I hope I'm wrong, you know, I because I have really big plans for my work too, and I really really hope that no one ever takes away my ability to share my work and to share my point of view. So I agree with you in
a lot of ways. I also just want to challenge a couple of things that you said from my own personal point of view, especially as someone who is a minority within a minority.
Gotcha.
So, now that you've stepped away from you know or organized the OTO, do you and going circling back to the conversation about community, do you find community within your podcast? Like or do you do you think that community is important to you?
Oh?
Yeah, well keep you know what I mean some people yeah, uh and in person and I just want to screen yeah uh yeah, no, it definitely helps. There is a community amongst me and the people on the show. I mean there's for the most part the people that I podcast with. Now, The Cold Rejects has been out for about five years. I had a different co host for about the first year and a half and then kind of went off on my own, but brought people on
to cover topics with. I started kind of just revolving certain people that I was like, oh, I worked well with this guy, you seem cool. And then eventually I just started keeping them on and then found some more people and then you know, kind of we kind of made it. It was always the Occult Rejects, but you know, now it actually really is rejects.
Like you know, it's a bunch of us. But uh, I forgot where it was going with this again. Oh yeah, the community.
Yeah, a lot of these people, now what I'm getting out, I've been working with for like three and a half years, three years, you know, consistently. You know, my friend Jim the Ninja, the Headless Giant, Teresa from the Spiritual Gangsters, you know, and they all have different backgrounds. I mean, we even have a Catholic that comes on the show sometimes and she could totally kick it with the occultism
and adds her two cents into fit the topic. So yeah, I definitely have you know, a lot of good friends that I've made podcasting, like I have even told you though unfortunately it is probably not the place you really think it is when you first get into it. So, you know, people who I thought I might have been cool with at the beginning, you know, maybe they were really weren't too authentic. But I do think I have actually found some like real real friends people I've met
personally too now from the show. And then there's people that I do know personally from like events and stuff that I have gone to that I can consider, you know, part of the community. You know, for sure, I will put it this way. The people that I consider friends in my life now either do you know, really more than likely from the podcast, whether it's in person or over the phone or on the screen, by far much better friends and more fulfilling than it was.
Brier. You know these people you're like some people on the show.
I guess you don't realize, like we're not trying to impress people and you're actually being in yourself and those people accept you like that, like that's a real friend, you know, and like a lot of us have old mom then on the show, Like we really weren't trying to. You know, maybe at first are trying to impress me because like, oh my god, he's gonna come on the show.
But you know, eventually, like you know, you start to you know, become real with people, and uh, we've all accepted each other for that, and a lot of us don't think all the same either, you know, and we're all like really really close.
I think that's wonderful. You've been able to create your own community, and I hear you because you and I have had personal conversations about the kind of content creation space, and I feel like podcast falls underneath that not being quite what you think it is, especially within like certain sectors. And but I feel like in order to find those really amazing people who are like life changing and to build your community, sometimes you've got to filter through some bullshit.
You know, not everyone you meet is going to be right for you, and sometimes that lesson might be a lot harder. And sometimes you might immediately meet somebody and be like, yeah, that person's not for me, and then sometimes you might it might take you some more time, but eventually, you know, and I feel like that's kind of been my I mean, I'm very niche the content creation space, but that's already been my experiences. Some people I meet are I realized almost immediately they're not for me.
And then I've also met some really really incredibly like life changing friends at the same time, and I have a lot of gratitude for that. But it also comes with a price as well, and I think that that's just friendship and community in general. It's like it's it's it's worth it, but there's sometimes a really heavy price to pay.
Oh you wants another thing too that I do would even mention.
It's not like I'm trying to put myself on the back yet, but like I think like half of the show, if not even more than half of it, they were all fans first, and I just had them on as a guest, tried them for a topic, and now they all have their own shows too, So I mean they even put off as fans, and like it's just amazing to see, Like what I'm getting at is not a lot of podcasters.
Will even entertain them. Yeah, big names.
I was like, there are so many people that don't have a name that are into this stuff, that have.
So much to say.
Yeah, I would totally.
Just because they're not popular doesn't mean they aren't intelligent. And I try to look for that, and you know, doing that, I've met some really amazing people.
First of all, I think that you're allowed to pat yourself on the back for that. I think that giving other people a platform and lifting up other people is something to be very proud of. And if anyone makes you feel weird about that, they can get fucked.
Yeah all.
You know, like I've experienced that a lot, so justin which an enchantment is like very publicly. My friend and when I first came into the content creation space and I was talking to him about starting it, he said to me, he was like, sweetie, there's room here for all of us to be successful. And he like brought me on his show before I ever started my channel. I did like a live lecture on there. I actually
he opened up his discord for me. I have a channel in his discord solely for me, because I don't have a discord, Like, oh, that's the beginning from the beginning. And you know, we had just we have known each other for a minute, but we became really close over the summer, and so he barely knew me and was like just like he was like, however, I can help
you be successful. I'll be successful and like people like him are like you who are willing to doesn't matter who you are, like you still see people and want to like build them up. I think it's like such a necessary part. And I agree with him. There's so many people out there. This is this doesn't need to be a competitive space, Like there's really room for all of us to win, and all of us have an
interesting viewpoint. So it makes me sad sometimes when I do reach when I do meet people who are really competitive, because it's just not necessary.
I totally agree.
Let me get back off my saw this my soapbox and go back to you. So have you ever experienced like a like a dark knight of the soul or what is? Unless you've had multiple descents, But what do you think that one of your distances has been?
Oh man, there's a couple that I uh, I will have to probably say, I mean, I guess it would be the first time I well, maybe the first time I crossed the abyss.
Uh.
So when you say you cross the abyss, can you explain more about what that means?
All right? Could get a little dark.
Uh, I'm not scared my opinion, and people may not totally agree with this, and maybe some people will actually come across a lot of people listening to my show that seem to agree with me, so maybe I'm not so crazy. Just like shamanism and even kind of like NDS, you're going to have to separate your soul from your body and kind of temporarily commit suicide. My opinion, it's technically gonna have to take yourself out to have a magical experience across the abyss.
That's just might opin.
Not that I went the route of this, but in my opinion, Flatliners, that movie is extremely real because that's basically the same thing. When you look at what shamanism is, they push themselves to practically death. You hear people who have NDEs and they have almost the same experiences. I do think crossing the abyss, you are letting your soul slip out of your flesh and you were actually having an experience with God eventually.
I mean, I think that there's something to be said about that because a lot of people who have like ndies, like you said, near death experiences, they a lot of them have some more things to say. But also I feel like, coming from a psychedelic point of view, a lot of people who use tycondelic in order to experience ego deaths, depending on like whether it be ioas whatever you do. You know, like that also is is a it's not exactly a physical death, but more of a like ego death, And a lot.
Of people think things avail very much for a person.
Sure, yeah, so what was your experience.
Like, well, every time, well or just like real quick, every time I do have this experience that I've had a four times, there is a physical feeling in visuals I see every time. So that's like even another thing like how I know what's even coming on what.
I'm getting there? Well, I know what I'm doing. What am I saying? I know what I'm doing when I'm doing it?
Anyway, But after the first time, because of that experience, and I guess explaining to you what I think I experienced, You're going to have to start questioning everything that you've believed prior.
Well, my opinion for the way I grew up.
Not that I'm comparing myself to him, but I mean technically, only well known religious people die and come back, So for somebody to even come out and start even thinking that is even like a little weird. But uh, when whenever I come back from these experiences, I don't know how to explain it, but it is as if like I get shown things that were inside my brain prior that I didn't understand being put together as a puzzle, and it making sense to me that to sound like
the Matrix or Neo. It's not that drastic where he's like, oh, I know, kung Fu, but you will wake up or I will wake up, and no, shit, I did not understand the no prior. All of a sudden, it's like it just starts getting rewired in my head and almost here like it's almost as like a voice. Really it's like telling you look at this. You know, it's very weird.
I've had you know, that experience happens every time. There's been times when I open up my eyes from this experience and everything looks like it's basically just light shooting up and then changing into everything that's around me. The things that I saw in these experiences make you wonder about what NASA is selling you, because there's very much like out of space to an extent, it's just really weird to where you have to sell wondering like what's
this reality? You know, is it really as dense as we think it is. I don't want to make it sound like a matrix, but just have to wonder like how real real is this? And for me that shattered, you know, everything that I had believed prior to understanding
how the world works was completely shattered. And I think in that point my opinion, I think, you know, shadow work is very very important to even have this experience, but I think it's going to actually be much more If that is important, you know, it's not as important, but much more important dealing with what's going to go through your head after you have this experience or trying to make sense of it, and that could be I guess maybe my dark k eye of the soul, because
it's like one I realized I've probably been lied to, a misunderstood and now I have to sit here and try to think am I crazy and have I losted?
Or am I actually onto something? And that gets scary. Uh. Physically I didn't feel good for a few days. That was like weird.
Uh.
So it was just like, uh, I mean there's other at one point. And you know, the last time I did it, I ended up in the hospital because I was just like, something's wrong my one. Every time I do it, my one eyeball blows open and the other one gets pent smaller.
You mean your your pupil, right.
Yes, I don't know if like people might have seen a couple of months ago the loop, I was saying, the liver King, I think does the same shit. He was talking shit about Joe Rogan, and I think, like the guy Joe Rogan and the pressing charges on him whatever, some big, you know, fucking bullshit spiel. But as he's going on acting like an anshole on the fucking on the video, one pupil's blown out, the other ones pinned.
I was like, yeah, the guy just came back from the abyss and he's fucking lost his fucking mind for their fewd next few days, he's not gonna make any sense and he's gonna talk trash. So like for me, you know, coming back. Yeah, So like I've had that. I ended up having an issue with my blood, which was really interesting. It only happened after that, so like even like progressively or even made me the last one, but it had brought me to that, uh to even
going to the hospital. There was just like a lot of stuff that was shattering my ideas of existence. I don't know what it is that made me think this, but because of one of those experiences, something just popped up in my head and said, look into the eyeballs in the brain. I don't know why. And then I started looking into that and I was like, Jesus fucking Christ, there's so many sigils and symbolism and in here it's
fucking insane. And then he started realizing, like what I thought magic is the idea that the Oto gave me
or any other place the Saint it. And I think I was a little bit resentful for that to begin with, because if what I do think is actually happening, and if I really did experience crossing the Abyss, I think you should be a little bit more open about what somebody is going to go through and what their experience is going to be, and stop with so many fucking secrets, because I don't think it's healthy for somebody to have that experience not really knowing what the fuck they're doing,
because again, if you're not mentally strong enough for it.
I do think it will warp your mind and fuck you up.
Do you think I'm not.
Patting myself on the back saying I was a gangster because I dealt with some serious shit in my head to be able to get to where I am now after these experiences.
Do you think that we're meant to have that experience?
Yes, yes I do. I think we all have the power. It doesn't matter who you are, how shitty of a person you've ever been. We all have the chance to have a conscious contact with God.
Do you think that everyone can handle it?
Though? No, I barely could. I'm keeping a real I barely could.
Because this is my thing. It's like, I don't think that psychedelics is for everyone. Some people would argue, but I don't think that psychedelics is for everyone. I don't think that accessing certain information is right for everyone, because not everyone is meant to handle that kind of information.
I will not promote drug use. Let me just preface this.
Even when I had these experiences, I wasn't even smoking weed anymore. The only time this, all these experiences actually were pre COVID, right before COVID, and due to COVID, I was just like YO, just for me to go out in public and deal with like life, I'm gonna have to start to fucking get high again. I should you not smoking weed again just to fucking deal with the situation. So I was totally drug free when I
had my experiences. I don't promote drugs because I didn't need them, but yes, I do think they can help AID if used correctly.
So you know what I think we haven't clarified is how do you even access crossing the abyss? You specifically?
Uh, I'd be totally honest with you, probably like the list. You know, it's six months, maybe six to eight months of my practice. I'm just telling you from my experience, you know, So I really you know what I'm saying. For me to tell somebody how to get there, I can really only tell them what I did well. First off, meditation, meditation, meditation, meditation, you better learn how to meditate, and I well, for me, I needed to learn how to meditate to quiet my mind.
But the last, you know, like again, six to eight months before the experiences, I was heavily, heavily into chakra work, visualizations, breathing techniques, and tons of shadow work and praying. I was praying constantly about please remove these things that are making me a motherfucking piece of shit. I don't want to be this person anymore because this is taking me
away from having an experience with God. It was tons that it doesn't sound Edgyagathi, you know what I'm saying, But a lot of it was literally like doing cabalistic stuff and praying to God certain ideas on this tree of that idea of God.
A lot of it was a lot of work like that.
Basically, there was times I fucking cried and begged said did not want to be the motherfucker I was anymore. And I don't know if it was that, but at some point I had even realized that I'm so fucked up that I can have morals and values that actually contradict each other depending on what situation I'm in, on how the way I want to look at things, and I was just like, oh, this just isn't working for me.
It was almost like wargames when the computer was just like, you know what the best way to win is, don't even play the.
Fucking game anymore. Bro.
And I don't know if I was just so done with the experience of being here on Earth and just wanting to, you know, transcend to something else. But eventually, when I went into my meditations, I just started to notice something different and held on to that. There's a certain visual that I had noticed that if I hold onto that and quiet my mind and don't fear it and just let it happen.
It happens.
So what do you see?
All the way?
It will get extremely extremely extremely dark, Like you don't like when you close your eyes and you meditate, and for you maybe you on the stand, after a while, it just seems to get darker because your eyes are vibing closed and you're not so focused on the outside world. So like you know, when people what I'm saying now, you know, when you're meditating for a while and it's you know, real dark with your eyes closed. It's almost as if this is another thing. I always focus on
my pineal gland when I'm doing this. I'm pressing on it. That may sound crazy, but for people who can actually fear feel them spinning or sense, you know, the pressure of the chakra, I can. I would always focus on my panial and push on it. And at some point when I would do that, all of a sudden, it would look like oil spilled across the black that I already thought was black, to make it a lot darker, like completely black. And then all of a sudden, and I want to sound cheesy, I do a question, if
this is the blazing star. I see this one, a little pin dot of this burning light in this darkness, and if I focus on it with my pineal gland and kind of hold on to it, it starts to come closer, and then all of a sudden, it turns into like this eclipse. Just hence why I have eclipses all over all my stuff. It's even on my logo that's even resembling an image that I see before it happens.
I will see it looks like an eclipse, and then all of a sudden, it will start to look like explosions around it, and then it almost like looks like they turn more reddish than orange, and it starts to look like roses blooming around this eclipse. And then all of a sudden, it just all that goes away. And then it's like you get all this like like fluorescent almost thermal camera looking. There's colors that I can't even
explain the way it looks. I can't even explain how to say, it's not neon, it's not thermal, it's really weird. And you'll see these colors come out like of this sphere and then start spinning and it almost looks like roof like vibrations or like a record spinning of all these different like I've been told that's the rainbow bridge, where it's like like coming at you and it's just like really ominous, and at this point I don't hear
a fucking thing anymore. It's like I practically went death and I'm just seeing that, and then all of a sudden, I'll get like these sacred geometry symbols like like spinning and just like coming at me, and then that will end, and then you'll see what I use on my logo. The best way for me to explain it is if maybe I was like standing in a subway and two cars were coming past me, but real slow, and you could see inside each window.
It's like out of the eclipse. On the sides of the eclipse.
There's just like these windows just coming out almost look like monoliths with like just looks like different places and different times or something. And they start coming out and it just keeps going for a little bit, and then all of a sudden, those disappear, and then it's like it's like they eclips and it's just like like burning. And then instead of normally pulling apart when you watch the moon wax wing, well, I've noticed it's different in
North Carolina the New York. It's not always left to right or right to left, you know what I'm saying. It will go from just like Toast's headdress. It will pull from the bottom up and you start to see the black sphere that's in front of the white slowly lift up, which starts to give it a crescent. Eventually it almost looks like a smiley face, and then totally lifts off the white. And then it's like if I look down the barrel of the gun and pull the trigger, it's like.
Hits me.
It feels like I get shot right in the head. And then all of a sudden, I start feeling all that shit where it's I can literally feel my souls suck out the top of my head where the Jews put their little yamaga. I can literally feel go through my body. I have never felt so alive and toll I died. Shit, you not that is the one time I actually felt fucking alive is in that situation. And then when that happens, it's as if everything just melts
right off of you. Every worry, every hate, every fear is fucking gone, and the only thing I feel and experience is a feeling of love that I never could even imagine.
Here.
It's better than any sex I've ever had, and it's better than any drug I've taken. It is ten times stronger than the feeling I've ever thought I felt of love here, and it just radiates, and you're just a part of something, and you're not thinking about your iPhone, not thinking about your boyfriend, what's going on on the news. You're actually just sitting there in love, which just existing
so fucking different. And then as soon as you think itself, but damn, you're done, spright back to your body and your eyes open up fucking over. You just disconnected yourself from God because you're thought of yourself.
I look at it as I walked away from God, and I'm the one who has to do the work to get back to him.
How does one get back to God?
I honestly think prayer, meditation and rituals and being completely, utterly honest with yourself. I know it sounds cheesy, but a lot of meditation too.
Do you think that that is part of your Do you think that that's part of your purpose? Is to be closer to God?
Yes? I think that's everybody's purpose here.
This may sound screwed up, but I think from a kiss to a senseless murder is all just showing the discontent of our soul being taken away from God and the source. This is all acts of just us being uncomfortable in the skin, mourman, and we look for ways to feel better about it. That sounds hard, but I don't think we're meant to be here.
Where do you think we're meant to be We're.
Meant to be much better than this, so much great. We're meant to be free and to be love, because that's what we are, and that's what God is, pure love stuck.
In the flesh.
Why do you think that we're here? Then?
I for me, I don't know. I made a choice for some reason. I think I don't know.
I've even wondered over the fallen angels and we're just like, yo, we fucked up.
I'm gotta get back, man, what do.
You think happens to us after we die?
We go somewhere else. It's not over.
People should not, my opinion, don't fear death. It's gonna suck. You're gonna lose the things that you love and the stuff that you're attached to. But you're gonna have another experience again. Might be a blade of grass or a.
Cat, and maybe you'll look out and actually be a cat. Fuck I like that. Next time. Fuck you give me food and let me sleep off fucking day, yo, for.
All you know when those guys it was a sleeping all day that jumping the bits themselves will meditate. They gotta bat. Might have a great fucking life in the head being able to clean up my shoe and give me food all day.
It was got a meat, you know.
But uh no, I honestly do think energy is just energy. Uh it's not destroyed. We will continue to go on some fashion of form. I think the whole thing though, with reincarnation, I think for the most part, there's no memory of the past.
That's the problem. I think.
Having an experience in magic, you can have the memory. That's the difference.
So if I if I correct me, if I'm wrong. For a while, you felt like you didn't really want to exist, and this crossing into the BIST has giving you hope and giving you reason to continue.
Oh yeah, I'd never I don't think I knew who I was on my purpose was until then. Like I've said before, I'm not trying to knock it because I was one of those people always going around and thinking, oh yeah, ud do what that wilth I know, you know, if it's my will, I'll do it. I did not know who I was or what my will was until ife crosed the abyssess the smike, which.
For anyone who doesn't know anything about the Lima as one of the basic tenets.
Yeah, which is a beautiful thing.
And unfortunately people twist it and I've seen people in the orders, you know, conspiracy through It's like, do you ever forget about the whole the love is the Law part?
Do we forget about that?
Because that actually sounds pretty fucking sweet, doesn't it?
Love is the law? Man.
That's just wrong with that, you know what I'm saying, you know, do what that will? That whole phrase you know that includes love is the Law? Why do people fuck this whole thing off?
Okay, I have a challenging question, and we don't have to include this. If you think that love is so important, why don't you want to stick up for people who are less privileged.
Than you, Because I think if we all had these experiences, we wouldn't even be in these positions.
But we don't all have those experiences.
Well, I think we need to though.
I would even say if you just start practicing at what I'm saying to do to have an experience with God, people would change regardless if they even had the experience.
But I think in order to have your experience, you need to have a certain amount of privilege maybe and in order to access that privilege, and we need people like you to help other people who are less privileged.
But I do think this is a bad example. I'm sorry, and it's just maybe you picked the wrong order. I'm pretty sure there's the two and I forgot his name. That was, you know, major name of the oto that did cross the abyss from his jail cell. So I mean, I mean you even do have who's that kid from the West Memphis three? He did pretty well for him selfie.
And locked up Damien Eccles.
Yeah, I mean I'm just playing Devil's I forget him playing with you.
You know what I'm saying.
But well, I think that there's something to be said about having your needs met, and I mean in jail, like you guess your basic needs are met? Yeah, but you have nothing else to do. But I wouldn't. I went in suggestion.
I'm not going to sit it here and condemn myself for the unfortunate fucking way I was born. I did not ask it to be born in Suffolk County by a white fucking family with privileges.
I can't help that. I'm sorry.
I don't think you need to apologize for it. But I do think that there's something to be said about helping other people if you do have privilege.
What do you think I'm doing with this podcast? I'm helping motherfuckers all day?
Yeah? Sure?
So why do I got to get specific on it?
Because if I stick up for one, there's obviously division from the other.
I'm not playing that game.
My message is for everybody, and when it comes to politics and everything else, I don't give a fuck. I'm here for people to have a connection with God. Everything else. You have a million other people to go listen to for that.
That's not me.
Yeah, there's enough motherfuckers out there with the shit you're talking about running their mouths all day.
Go listen to them.
I'm here to have a conscious with God and that eliminates everything else.
Sorry, yeah, I mean, I.
Don't think you need to apologize for it. I'm just I'm just curious on your standpoint because to me, I feel like if you have a certain amount of privilege, you get certain amount of access, which is one of the things that I've noticed a lot about ceremonial magic is a lot of it comes with comes from privilege and having the time and having your needs already met so that you can access certain things and have certain time for certain things. Not everyone. Ceremonial magic is not
accessible for everyone. So it's just an interesting conversation that I'm wanting to pick your brain about.
Oh yeah, yeah, well one thing, and again this isn't to go back and forth.
One thing I do want to add.
After the first experience that I had when I crossed the Abyss, I was again blown away, taken back, and I was like, you know what, I think, I'm just gonna cut down to the basics and I'm just going to meditate. I did no rituals, I lit nothing, I just sat in a chair and I meditated. And I still did it three more times. I just needed to sorry to Saint and close my eyes. Yeah, I'm not just you know, I'm not trying to go back at you, but I'm just saying, like that costs me nothing.
Meditating.
Meditation is free, and I agree that meditation is an incredible tool that everyone has.
Right, I do get what you're saying.
I'm not discrediting what you're saying because I will say and this is this is even a thing I'm going to cover in one of my herbs.
So this might be a little controversial.
I'm coming out with an art book and its effects on the nervous system. Where am I going with this? I'm trying to think of how the way I'm gonna word this. There's a lot of times where I think if you're looking at the what you're using that herb for, when you burn it and it affects your vegas system or your cranial nerves, you're going to think whatever you're doing actually worked because it's.
Going to give you that sensation, believe it or not.
Long story, short, it's a very expense to actually be a ceremonial magician if you want to start fucking with all these nerves and all these crystals and all these things that I actually don't think is one necessary to use. But unfortunately, the way the community I think has grown, the more trinkets and things you have, the better of
a magician you wire. So we I myself included, probably spent way more money than I should have on crystals, believe it or not, and now I look back at it and just think it was a waste.
But yes, if you want to get into this stuff, odds are.
It's going to be expensive if you want to do it the way it seems to be being done visually everywhere.
Mm hmm.
I mean you look at if you look at you know, certain Buddhists as a certain again, like I'm even covering a well for an event that I've been possibly asked to speak at.
Uh, there was a topic I was going to cover.
With uh, shamanism and des Fuck, I totally forgot where I was going with this.
I'm so sorry. I just had a brain forward.
Okay, we're talking about herbs, so we can move into kind of like how you find sovereignties. So like you've gone through this crossing the bits multiple times and it's kind of giving you purpose and brought you closer to God. How has the occult in that experience like really changed your life? Like you wanted to be less of a shitty person? Do you think that you now are a less of a shitty person?
Yeah? In some ways, yes, in some ways I still have to change. Yeah.
Of course I've made horrible decisions and choices since I've been podcasting.
You know, keep it real, I'm human. Uh, But no, it does. Uh.
If I stay true to what the vision is that I had for this show and don't try to sell my self too much, I feel very fulfilled and feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. You know, in podcasting maybe it's hard for people to understand. But like in my opinion, unfortunately I can't tell you about the the Colt community. I would probably assume, but in the conspiracy community, things may not be what it seems.
You're gonna probably have to, oh cook for a click or somebody that's in a club to get anywhere.
It's gonna take a lot, a lot of hard work on your own and I would refuse to do that.
So there's times it's just like, you know, maybe you will entertain guess that you normally wouldn't, just to get your name out, you know what I'm saying, or just do certain things you're using the other person really for a name, keep it real. I'm not comfortable with doing that anymore. That is a huge thing that's done in podcasting. So I just actually try to keep to what I think my purpose is and if I have to just do more work to get that done. You've seen yourself.
I do a lot of solo shows now. That is because I don't want to start veering off the path just to try to get more fame.
You know.
Uh So when I am doing that, I feel very fulfilled. I feel like I'm doing something. I feel better about myself, My days go better. You know, things happen that it was supposed to happen. You know, doors open up for me that I didn't even know as possible, never thought of. I mean just even honestly meeting you. I mean that's just you knowing Ivy, that was just something I never would have thought. I mean I knew who Ivy was
two years ago. I was trying to get her on the show, but it's just, you know, certain things, even other ocultist I've had on the show, like blown Away, that like I even got to have a conversation with them. Never would have thought five years ago I'd have been doing that, you know, And I get to learn, and that makes me feel good too.
I feel like when and one thing that.
Just when I add just real quick, the one thing too and again kind of like maybe what I was saying to you before, there were so many people that already covered the occult in certain ways. I want to look at it a little bit different, and I do feel like that's actually being entertained and appreciated and people aren't thinking I'm crazy, And when they actually look at what I'm saying, they like, oh, this guy might be onto something. So that makes me feel a little bit
better too. It makes you It's totally honest, But yeah, I try to look at it, you know, again from the science side and the eyeball, you know, I did a whole series on the eyebowl symbolism and even stuff with like you eventually, when I show stuff from Italy and Rome, the tons of eyeball symbolism. I think that, but you know that seems to be catching on and I you know, that's cool. I like that it's a little bit different. Again, like I said, it's not all
Dixon demons. There are some science I think into it.
What would your advice be to someone who's like trying to find inspiration or trying to find sovereignty or maybe are and a similar place before you had your experiences.
Cheesy as it is, probably uh, meditate and pray hmm, And I think you'll end up getting answers that way. Either it will be like just weird decisions jamake or and idea that pups into your head. As cheesy as it is, I do think if you talk to your higher self talk back to you at some point, if
you're being honest. That just sounds cheesy, But I really do think prayer, meditation and letting go of the fears and as if you're willing to get there where you want to go, and just keep putting the one foot forward, you'll get where you're going. You'll get where you want to go. You know, you know I'm not saying that like not pushing it too hard, but I do think like you may have to drop some fears, you know, but it will be well worth it after the fact.
I can say something a little bit more serious or granther than that, But I really do think I.
Think that's very serious, and I think that there's something to be said about the simplicity of it. While meditation is not simple, you know, it takes a lot of a lot of work and dedication for a lot of people, especially in the day, in today's day where we really struggle with stimulation, addiction and the way that our like, you know, we're constantly over inundated with stimulations. Sitting with oneself is incredibly difficult. But it is accessible to everyone.
Maybe not everyone has quite as much time because of bread and stuff like that, but yeah, if you can find I.
Was doing that shit at three thirty in the morning, I was like, it sucks. I don't want to do this before I go to work.
Yeah, But I mean, like, you know, it is accessible to everyone, and it is free, and I think that there's something to be said, especially people who are newer to like the magic sphere from the outside you said, there's like crystals, and like the way that capitalism has infiltrated, the way that we.
Oh god, Yeah, that is horrible too. The amount of money you got to pay for this shit is Yeah, discuss going on about that when you're right. The capitalism and the witchcraft community is fucking disgusting.
It's a lot.
It's like, Yo, why can I go walk into a bodega and by the same herbs and a bag they.
Have the price?
Yeah, it doesn't have the pretty label on it though, it's just as good. Yeah, Or I would say you can actually eat if you want to, Yeah, sure, Or connecting to plant spirits outside and maybe switching out correspondences for things that like feel that energy and ask yourself to use your own intuition. Ultimately, Like, I feel like there's power in that magic is accessible to everybody, But I think that a lot of people who are new
to this space don't quite understand. But when I think that first and foremost, meditation is accessible to everyone, but you have to keep working at it. And I think that there's something very beautiful and poignant about the simplicity of your answer. What are you currently booming into? How can people find you? What exciting projects do you have coming up?
I do have.
I'm working on some solar and lunar temples that are, you know, just something like basic info about them.
I'm working on.
That to put out I do have uh I should be working on Johanna's Kepler soon. That is one thing that I do do on the Occult Rejects. I try to cover a lot of people from the past, a lot of them. Actually, I've been taking off the Gnostic Saints list from the OTO. I don't even think half the people notice that I'm doing that whatever, And plus you know, it's kind of just like, you know, it's
funny in my mind. It's kind of like for the people that have like a bad idea about it, it's like if you start realizing you like all these dudes I'm putting on there, it's like it's almost kind of like I'm trolling them, you know what I'm saying, These all the Gnostic Saints, but yet you should on the OTO and you fucking enjoy these people, and it's just funny to me.
So but no, I do do a lot of that.
So I have like a solo Gianna's Keppler show that I'm gonna be working on. One thing I will be covering soon. If some people are interested in like actual video stuff. I have been to under Maya Park that was in the Bronx and it's like a cult stuff behind it, a lot of architectures, some really cool stuff.
I did a lot of filming and I got a lot of drone work.
I'm gonna put that out soon and me of the other Rejects, we'll cover some of the symbolism and you know just pointed out and even Corol Castle in Florida, I've been too recently and I got a bunch of footage from there. We should be showing you like the architecture and all that stuff, you know, because I do think there's a lot of magic going on in a
lot of those megalists and architecture and stuff. I do think when you start looking at how all that stuff works, I think that's another form of magic in a sense.
So I cover all sorts of things on the show.
So if people are interested, I got that stuff coming up, and it is the Occult Rejects and.
That is available on bit shoot, Rumble, YouTube and.
All major podcasts might be able to check it out on Twitter Live. Sometimes I don't have the live, but other guys on the show do when they stream out, So yeah.
Hey, thank you so much for being here. I'm so grateful for your time and your story. I really, really I appreciate andful to have your vulnerability and you sharing so much about yourself with us. It is a really big deal. If you like this conversation today, I would like to see more in my work. Please consider subscribing to my channel, and if you're already subscribe, thank you so much for your support. You can further help support my work by liking, commenting, sharing. All of it helps
keep the sacred work flowing. I'm also on Instagram if you would like to follow me there underneath my name Serena Saint Sinclair. Thank you so much for being here, and it's always May your path be sacred, your shadow sovereign, and may you always blue and wildly. I'll see you next time. I'm going to cut that out. You're going to get me in trouble. I think you're being honest. You're trying to get me canceled. And first of all, we already argue about politics, and now you're telling me
I'm sorry