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What What's going to happen?
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Welcome to the Occult Rejects. Very very exciting episode today. We couldn't be happier enough to have Doctor Gregory show. Oh actually, I'm not even sure if I'm gonna say this correctly. I meant to ask you, is that correct?
All right?
Close enough? I meant to ask you probly. I always want to make sure I get you guys names right, you know, uh on today for near death experiences. I'm sure for regular listeners of the show you have heard me bring this up plenty of times. I think most of the Occult Rejects are actually very intrigued by this whole situation. And I have mentioned before it's my opinion.
I do think and I do wonder for other people's experiences if an NDE may doesn't necessarily have to be, But maybe it is a part of magic for some people, you know, maybe that is just a part of the journey in the whole cycle of having a magical experience. So we got Lisa, we got Ethan Indigo, and we got Jin the Ninja with us as well. Their links will be in the bottom and we got doctor Gregory again, thank you so much for coming on for the people who don't know who you are, and they should find
out who you are. Please let everybody know what your deal is and everything.
Okay, Yeah, thanks for having me on, Nick, of course. Yeah.
So my name's Gregory Shoujan. I'm a historian of religions. So a lot of people, most of the people who are near death studies, researchers, professionals, come from, you know, the medical sciences. People like Bruce Grayson, Kennethry and Jen Holden know either psychiatrists or cardiologists. Sam Parnia van Lomo I came from the humanities. Where I come from the humanities. I'm kind of still situated.
In that world.
I actually started out in Egyptian archaeology and Eastern Mediterranean archaeology and then kind of defected to the study of religions, historical study of religions across culturally and kind of carved out a niche that didn't really exist basically within the humanities.
Combining all these.
These different various sorts of interests, so I'm practically a field unto myself, with a few other a few exceptions.
That's great, though, yeah, you know what he did, totally forget to mention, but just real quick, yeah, I was going to read off some of the stuff about you. You are an award winning author affiliated with Birmingham Newman University, University of Winchester and Marian University and the Paris Psychology Foundation, and you are on the show to promote your book The Near Death Experience in Ancient Civilizations, The Origins of the world's after life beliefs. Did forget to mention that
was the whole reason you were coming on too. You have read a book on that and that's been some even studying for a while. Like you said, so I guess to get into it. What was it that you were what got you into looking into NDEs?
Uh?
Yeah, I was actually, strangely enough, came from my Egyptian archaeology studies as an undergraduate. You know, you're learning about higher glyphs and reading things like the Books of the Dead and the predecessors to the Books of the with
the pyramid texts and the Coffin texts. These are the kind of the some of the world's earliest expressions of you know, religious beliefs, and they included guide books about you know, telling the soul how to negotiate the different obstacles in the other world, and you know, kind of union with the different deities and the kinds of experiences
that you should expect when you get there. And as I was reading these texts, I started thinking, like, if you strip back some of the Egyptian cultural obvious layers, you're kind of left with something that looks a lot like in your death experience. So the soul leaves the body. In this case it's the mummy, It travels through darkness.
In the Egyptian case, it's like different caves and caverns and gates, emerges into a realm of light, which is, you know, this heavenly cosmic sort of realm meets a being of light who in Egypt is the sun god Ray, you know, emanating light. There is a evaluation of your
earthly life. You meet your deceased relatives, you have a kind of transformative unification experience with the divine, and you also encounter your own corpse in a sense, because you're associated with all of these deities and at one point you're associated with Osiris very very clearly, like this real emphasis that the soul of the dead is Osiris. Osiris is the god of the dead and also the judge
of the dead. And there's a point in this text where the soul the dead encounters the corpse of Osiris in the other world and it basically says, you are this god, you are this corpse. So it's this realization, just like near to experiencers have that when you see your body from a vantage point outside of it, your mind is like, wait, hang on a second, I've survived the death of my body.
There's my corpse, and yet I'm still alive.
So it's that realization that kind of leads to the transformation experience in the afterlife that allows you to kind of keep going essentially. So yeah, I started thinking, you know, if there's all these this kind of set of like nine elements that are so similar to near death experiences, maybe these afterlife beliefs and this idea of the afterlife journey was actually you know, grounded in some ancient near death experience.
Nice and in your new book, I do know you also do focus on like five major places Egypt, Sumor Mesopotamia, India and India, China, and may An Aztec right.
Right, yes, Yeah, So to test that idea.
I basically thought, I'm going to do a cross cultural comparison of the afterlife journey beliefs in all of these ancient civilizations, and I found like, essentially those same nine elements, almost as if they're like superimposed onto these different societies.
But what I didn't expect to find at first was, you know, I thought I was just going to look at their beliefs, their religious texts, And as I was doing the research, I realized that there were actual accounts of near death experiences in all of these ancient civilizations
except for Egypt. Egypt didn't have like a context for reporting about these kinds of things, like writing was limited to either bureaucracy or accounting or you know, decrees by the pharaoh look at how great I am, like how I'm the son of the Sun God and worship me and all this kind of stuff, so ritual priestly text. They didn't have like personal narratives of like or reporting, you know, like this person died in this province and
this is what happened to them. But in all of the other societies, we have actual accounts of you know, historical near death experiences. From India, there's like medical magical texts that describe how to go save the soul of somebody who is in danger of dying and basically bring their soul back to their body. So again, you know, that shows medical medical magical kind of awareness of near death experience. A medical magical border is kind of, you know, something to parse.
We would see it as magical, they'd see it as medical.
I think that is interesting. I don't think you mentioned it before since since we've been recording. What are like the nine things that you're that you look for?
Yeah, so well, actually I should say, first of off, First of all, the way I approached it was not like I'm going to determine if this is a near death experience if it has these elements. So I decided I'm going to look at whatever that society thinks of as as an example of somebody who died and came back to life and talked about the experience. So if they if they came back and said, you know, I went to Mars and I saw three headed beings, I'd say, okay, that's.
A near death experience. It's just an unusual one.
So it was the context that I let kind of steer my whole approach to the subject. But having said that, you know, these nine elements emerged out of all of these different societies, and that's leaving the body entering darkness, coming out into some kind of other realm, which is a realm of light, meeting a being of light, having some kind of transformative experience that's related to that being, or some kind of union with a divine or divinization
of the soul. Decease relatives. I don't know if I said that yet, some kind of moral evaluation of the life that you just left on earth, some kind of not necessarily like a big panoramic life review as we associate with ndase, but some kind of evaluation of your life. And then, because I wasn't dealing with near death experiences in those religious texts, there's not a return to the body, because it wasn't an nd whose texts were basically, you know,
instructing the soul how to negotiate the other world. But you know, the kind of implication is that somebody had been there and came back, and that's how they know how to describe this process of you know, dying and proceeding in the next world.
This is very interesting. That's just what I was going to ask, And I think maybe what you just said pretty much answers the question I was assuming. Maybe the way you're looking at it now, as you're saying that you found non commonalities between in all these different places, is it like something that you've noticed that, like, all of them all have this, regardless how their story is a little different.
Yeah, exactly, pretty much, And it's almost like they're embedded within the wider afterlife beliefs, but they're definitely identifiably there. But what I also tried to do with the book is, you know, I don't want to just cherry pick the evidence because that's not a scientific approach. So I also described all of the differences cross culturally and then showed like how some of those differences match up to the near death experience, and then how some of them seem
to just be like completely cultural things. For example, like in China, there's descriptions of people leaving the body and ascending to heaven on the back of a dragon. So the idea of leaving the body and ascending is obviously a cross cultural.
Thing with new death experience.
But you know, people in Egypt aren't writing dragons to the other world, and people in contemporary America or Europe aren't writing dragons.
To the other world.
So there's these you know, cultural expressions of these experiences.
Basically, that is interesting.
Did anybody have any questions before.
I actually have one, Doctor Shoshan, I'm a little I guess that I'm a little ignorant of the Egyptian cosmology and theology.
More broadly.
I just was wondering some of the things that you mentioned a few minutes ago sounded very much like they were experimenting with ideas of like duality non duality, and I would wondering if you could sort of like locate that for me in a kind of I guess modern epistem or whatever. And then also, is reincarnation or rebirth a factor in some of these like andes, especially for Egyptian cosmology, simply because I'm so ignorant of it?
Thank you?
Okay, Yeah, the first question is easy, and that's that's a no. There's there's not really any evidence for reincarnation beliefs in Egypt as far as their cosmology goes, especially
in relation to the afterlife. It's both complex and also not entirely properly understood by Egyptologists even after like two hundred years of research, and just to give one example of that, the soul of the dead goes to the other world and as I mentioned, joins the Sun god the being of light Osyrus, and it's portrayed is like a kind of infinite universal cosmic circuit.
So they go.
He joins the Sun god on the on the celestial which sails into the cosmos and then sails down into the underworld. And during this process, the soul of the dead is not just with the god Ray. He becomes the god Ray and then traveling in the underworld, becomes the god Osiris and travels with Osiris. And there's even a deity called Osiris Ray, which is this kind of as you said, it's like a reconciliation of the duality. So it's almost like this omnipresence. The soul of the
dead becomes one with both of these gods. Both of these gods are also one with each other. And then there are descriptions of they call it in the archaeological literature member of patheosis, and it's basically each part of the soul of the dead's body, you know, their subtle body or whatever is associated with a particular deity. So you know, this arm is atom, and this part of the arm is raw, and this part is isis, and this part is Osiris and whatever. So it's this you know,
symbolic expression of how you are basically transcendental everything. You are all of these these deities, and it's in all of the properties of these cities, so knowledge, fertility, creation, wisdom,
and so on. So as if that's not complicated enough, there's also descriptions in these texts of the soul of the dead dwelling forever in the field of offerings, which are the offerings that people on earth, you know, burn and send to the souls of the dead, so they would be living off and benefiting from from the offerings that the people on earth are making to them, or the soul of or the field of marshes. You know, it's this kind of like happy hunting grounds kind of place.
So it's portrayed as if, like, you know, you're going to have this wonderful, heavenly eternity, but at the same
time it's portrayed as this eternal cosmic circuit. So and that's the kind of thing that has puzzled Egyptologists for a long time, and I wonder if it's just another expression of that transcendent kind of space that you enter into that you're actually you are everything at once, you're doing everything at once, and it's really impossible for us in our earthly forms to even comprehend what's going on.
I kind of wonder if that's the message. But other Egyptologists have said things like, you know, it was the South they believed in this particular form of afterlife. The North they believe this, and when the scribes put it together, they didn't try to reconcile it, so they just kind of threw everything together. They didn't really understand what they
were portraying. I don't agree with that. I kind of think like we have to trust the sources and trust that the ancient Egyptian people and scribes really did know what they were talking about, and it's up to us to find a way to understand it rather than to you know, accuse them of ignorance essentially. So I hope
that answers the question. I mean, it's pretty as I said, even after all these this time of formal egyptological studies, there's still stuff that's not quite fully understood about their religious leaves.
I wanted to add on that, or ask for you to add on that. I understand, I believe, I gather that you're finding these nine elements were not necessarily sought after at first, but you kind of found them being
intricate in each one of these systems. I wonder as you described the elements too, it made me even want to ask more about this because they some of them had a correspondence to the eight slash nine parts of the Egyptian Soul and Body, and Lisa was had a corresponding idea with the nine elements that she was thinking of too that were I don't I don't know as well, but Lisa, maybe you want to mention those.
Yeah, when you mentioned how the soul was going through these levels, these journeys, and then the nine, it reminded me of the Aztec Mayan belief system where they journey through nine different levels for the purpose of purification and like washing away or like you said, like there's a whole event like you're you're being processed. If it's not hr the DMV, but you're being processed through these nine levels that the going through and it's and it's not
only just you know, weighing out everything. It's the trials and tribulations, at least that's what I've read. And and then the end result is eternal rest or you know, returning back to source or or something like.
That, right, Yeah, And that's symbolized in some of the like the ancient maintext, the Popolo, it's about these set of twins who descend to the other world and they're first is their fathers who go and they they're outwitted by all these gods of the dead in the other world and they fail all these tests and they get
beheaded and annihilated essentially. And then their their children, who are also twins, also go to the other world, but now they have the knowledge of their fathers and so they're able to kind of overcome all of these different trials.
Uh.
And at the end of the text it says and they ascend it into the light. So it's it's a very similar kind of thematic thing, and that happens. There's text like that all around the world. There's in ancient Mesopotamia, there's the descent of Inana to the underworld.
She's a goddess.
Associated with love and the planet Venus, and she she goes to the underworld in order to like overthrow the reigning queen of the dead there. But what's interesting about it is as she she goes there, she she has to shed seven garments at seven different stages, and each of those garments are like symbolic of some earthly sort of attribute, so it's almost like she's she's shedding these you know, this this accretions of that her had on Earth. And then as she when she gets there, she's in
a more kind of purified state. So you know, whether that's happening in Egypt, it's really hard to say because again this you know, different things are portrayed as as the ultimate state. And then when you get to somewhere like India where they have reincarnation beliefs, are some of the Native American accounts as well, you know, trying to reconcile what this this afterlife state is in relation to reincarnation, it usually seems like it's it's a you know, intermediate
state before rebirth. And in India there's an interesting correspondence because we have quite a few texts describing a journey of a young boy to the afterlife and then a return, and it's very much it's basically a near death experienced
myth that's repeated over the centuries. But then once since reincarnation is introduced as a as a new doctrine, those kind of myths kind of fall away and there's more focus on the kind of cosmic elements of the afterlife realm and how to negotiate them, and in the Indian case, basically recognizing that the self, like the inner unchanging self, which they call the Atman, is one and the same as Brahman, which is the cosmic universality of everything, which
you know, is paralleled in the in some of the Egyptian cases. So so yeah, a lot of these themes, even that aren't necessarily like identifiable near death experience themes, are still kind of thematically found in a lot of these different cultures around the world, these ideas of transcendence and things like that.
One thing I did want to also ask. I'm trying to ask this in the best way possible too, because there's different ways I guess it could be done when it comes to art, and I guess that would even be like physical like something drawn on a wall or on a canvas or in written text. Did you notice like ways of symbolism being done in like an art that was common amongst all these different areas that you looked at when they talked about NDEs, No.
That was that's a bit more difficult.
Actually, there's the first thing that comes to mind is there's a hand period Chinese like funerary banner they call it, and it's a kind of T shaped thing, and it shows the different stages of death and the afterlife, and it's like dragons and different people in different positions. And the only way to really understand that is if you have a description of it by you know, a Chinese scholar somebody's who's who knows how to read that particular banner.
Once you know that, there are a lot of things about it that correspond to your death experience because it's the sole traveling to the other world and meeting the deceased relatives and meeting the emperor of Heaven and all this stuff. But as far as like the iconography itself, it's it's not really evident what it all means. And it's definitely the same with some of the Aztec stuff.
There's the Codex Borgia, which is, you know, super esoteric kind of stuff, and there's no there's no text accompanying it that describes what these images are, so some of it is pretty speculative, but still it's it's clear that it's still representing like a journey to the other world.
Yeah, the reason why I was asking is because I do wonder about like I guess what I was trying to get at, like symbology, Like just my opinion. I do think sometimes the eclipse, which is why I use it in a lot of my artwork or even behind this now, I do think sometimes that might be a symbolism that's used. I think that's more of a newer thing. Maybe that's used a lot for maybe showing an NDE.
So that's why I was like wondering if maybe there's like something common that you've seen that might show up that you've noticed like, oh, that's weird. I saw something like that in art that was depicting an NDE before.
Yeah, there's not well in art actually, in the Mayan case there, the soul of the dead is also associated with the phases of Venus and in the sense of like it's dying and being reborn, and then also with a jaguar which is like starts out as a baby and then grows, and the jaguar is also associated with venus, and so yeah, as far as like there's a lot of parallels with the cycles of nature and celestial bodies and how they die and come back to life basically.
So yeah, the soul is almost seen as part of the natural world, which is interesting because in you know, contemporary ideas about the paranormal or supernatural or whatever, it's often like seen as a distinction from the natural world, like this is something paranormal, supernatural that doesn't conform to science, rather than just like it's all part of the same universe.
That we inhabit. So so, I mean.
I think if there really isn't afterlife, it's just it's just a natural cycle.
There doesn't have to be some kind of.
God or you know, supernatural divine system that's organizing it. It's just like the same way you know, a catercillor becomes a butterfly. Our souls survive death and have some other kind of experience. It's not necessarily it's mysterious because we can't measure it. But I don't know if it's if it's helpful to see it is divine or supernatural.
Yes, it's interesting that you did say a jaguar because you know, I saw the movie Apocalypto, and the jaguar does play a role in that movie, and one of the main things going on in that movie is they stop killing people once in a clip shows up. So, like, I even do think that movie, believe it or not. I'm not saying anything bad about it. I think it's
deeply embedded with some deep occult ideas. So it's just funny you mentioned a jaguar that was very heavily involved in a movie that was also based on an eclipse. It's just coincidental. It was funny. Yeah, that's why I just wanted to get an idea that I one thing I did. I also want to ask you because I know you studied it, like the shamanism, what is kind of like maybe talk to us a little bit about that in the NDEs that you looked into.
Sure, yeah, from the ancient civilizations, there's evidence for shamanism in Mesopotamia, accounts in meso America and China and India basically everywhere but Egypt. Once again, that doesn't mean that Egypt didn't have shamans. It just means there's not we
don't really have good evidence for it. But in all of these civilizations it was you know, associated with traveling to other realms, to realms of the dead, and often in the sense of for the purpose of soul retrieval, you know, bringing back souls of the dead who are
in danger of dying. So the shaman kind of develops this you know technology for lack of a better word, for accessing the other world, leaving the body going to this other world without dying, without risking death, in order to rescue somebody who really is dying.
And so when they.
Bring that person back, that person will have had an NDE because they'll wake up, and then the shaman will just you know, return the body and reintegrate essentially, and that's it.
Really.
I don't want to generalize too much about shamanism because there's lots of forms of shamanism that don't involve travel to the other world, you know, all kinds of healing procedures and whatever else. But so I just want to make because I'm talking specifically about like the other world journey form of shamanism, and that's also found in you know, small scale indigenous societies.
Around the world.
One of my other books is Near Death Experience in Indigenous Religions, and I look in this book quite a lot at that interface between shamanic experience and near death experience.
And interestingly, in the Native American cases and a lot of Native American cultures, they made a distinction between shamanic other world journeys, dreams of the other world, and near death experiences, and they held up near death experience as the kind of most profound and most reliable of all of those experiences, like the best way of gaining the knowledge, the most trustworthy knowledge. And then shamanism was kind of in the middle of those other world journeys, and then
dreams were at the bottom. They still valued all of them sources of knowledge, but they put indease at the top. And an interesting you know, just to make a point on this is the term near death experience wasn't even invented really in popular culture until Raymond Moody in nineteen seventy five. So it's a fifty year old concept basically in the popular consciousness. And I was looking at texts
going back to, you know, the sixteen seventeenth century. So even though they had no term for near death experience, and it wasn't like a kind of popular zeitgeist kind of thing. They were still describing those kinds of experiences and you know, trying to replicate them with shamanic practices.
Basically, I wonder I'm speculating that a lot of ritualistic practices today might have origins in this initiation process of stream process or inducing the idea that they might be
experiencing an NDE. Like when with the monks maintain a new name, oh am, i am I here for a few seconds or so, sorry, the idea that some ritualistic initiation rights kind of contain a nd element, and Buddhist monks getting a new name and even being knighted, uh, and the Freemasonic initiation where they actually do a mock death. I wonder if you might know some initiatory practices where they perpetuated the idea that one was in danger.
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point, especially with the Freemasons. I think the Freemasons probably got it from ancient Greek and Roman mystery cults, which which I think, and a
few other scholars think, like Juliaeustanova and Richard Seaford. Classical scholars that basically those experience, those mystery cult initiations were almost like rehearsals for near death experiences and for the dying process, and they were constructed with knowledge of near death experiences in mind, so essentially, and there really are also equivalents to shamanism. So the initiate would you know, go into this situation psychologically prepared to have this you know,
other world journey type of experience and rebirth. At the end,
they'd be disoriented, possibly through the use of drugs. They'd be led into like a dark subtrainean chamber, and those descriptions of you know, almost like special effects, like this whole kind of experience was planned in advance, so there would be some kind of deity, probably coded in gold or silver, and then bright lights suddenly shone on it when your eyes are not adjusted to the dark, and you meet various kinds of you know, beings in this
dark place, and then eventually you're let out and you emerge into the bright light, which is actually you know, just the space outside of the underground chamber, and it's that experience that's you know, you're transformed from that moment on and then you're eligible to have a more positive afterlife when you actually do die, and then then and you also have this kind of special status as an initiate, which you know, people who have NDEs also have a
special status by virtue of their knowledge and having had that experience to begin with. So yeah, I think there's parallels and a lot of a lot of culture is about I started calling it the shamanic replication hypothesis, which because it needed some kind of shorthand name, and that's kind of the idea that people are basing their religious beliefs or their afterlife beliefs on endase that's Soften referred
to it as the experiential source hypothesis. This which is a term that David Hufford came up with in relation to sleep paralysis. But I think there, you know, they sound like, uh, you know, stodgy academic terms, but I think they're they're useful shorthands to just kind of precisely describe what what these ideas are.
Really doc would you described right now? Sounds like a birth. You're in darkness, a light at the end of the tunnel, you come out and you see a whole bunch of people there.
Yeah, and they are yeah, that's sure. In fact, thing I thought of, Yeah, Carl Sagan.
Had had the theory, I think all the way back in the seventies that near death experiences were actually you know, uh, emerging memories of birth, and and he said, Okay, you go through a dark tunnel, you meet a being of light, and all this kind of.
Parallels. But I kind of don't think that's the case.
And the reason for that is actually the same reason that that might work challenges some of the materialist interpretations of NDEs, and that's the diversity across cultures. So, for example, like the most common stereotype in NDEs about getting to the other world is that you rush through a tunnel right and then and there's the light at the end and you emerge. But in a lot of examples across culturally,
there's no tunnel. So like in a lot of Polynesian accounts, they walk along a path to the other world, and they will even say things like I look down and I could see the footprints of all the spirits who had walked to the spirit village before me. There's one woman who as she's walking, she sees somebody else walking back in the other direction. Because that person was having an NDE and they're on their way back from they're on their way back to their body, and she's still
she's on her way to the spirit world. So yeah, this diversity of ways of getting to the other world. And there was nothing about rushing through a tunnel. She's just walking. So when scientists say, you know, the near experiences, you know, the tunnel is basically literally tunnel visions as your oxygen is deprived in your brain and your senses start shutting down.
It doesn't really work if.
Everybody isn't having that kind of experience across culture, because our brains are basically the same around the world.
Yeah. See that has even said something that I've thought. I mean, maybe that even makes sense, just as duw that we're all the same is I do think, sometimes not all the time, like you just said now, that people will have like maybe a common experience having an NDE, you know, like maybe common even visuals or maybe our brain will make sense of a different situation depending on our belief system, but very close to the same thing.
Yeah, it's a really tricky question because so I'll just give a couple of more examples. One is the being of light, you know, people will see this being of light and they'll come back and they say I saw Jesus, and the researcher will say, okay, describe him.
Say it was just this pure, brilliant, brilliant.
Beautiful light. I just knew it was Jesus. But they don't say she was on the cross, he had a crown of thorns. And then somebody else will go there and say I saw the Buddha, or I saw Mohammed or Krishna or whoever.
So whether this really is.
Just like some kind of being of light that's objectively just to being of light and we all see it differently, or whether it's a relative.
Or what, there's kind of no way of really knowing that.
But then there's other examples where so, in the kind of stereotypical Western examples, when you're sent back to your body, you're told, okay, it's not your time to die.
You need to go and care for your loved ones.
You know, your son needs you, your daughter needs you, or whatever it is, your spouse needs you, or you didn't fulfill something about your life. You need to finish studying to be a doctor so you can help people. That kind of thing whereas in different cultures in India and Japan, China, I will go to the other world. Let's say I have a near death experience and I get there and I'm told it's not your time to die. There's been a clerical error. We've got the wrong Gregory Shushan.
We want the one who lives in upstate New York or whatever.
So you go back to your body.
So then I'd go back to my body and wake up, and this other person who happens to have my name would would die permanently. So not your time to die is the same, and say that to the body is the same. But the reason for it is obviously cultural. And that's the kind of thing like I don't know how to explain.
Like they like be men up and they're like looking at the body coming to the ship and then they're looking at the screen and they're like, that's not the same to it. How do you screw that up?
Yeah?
That is amazing. I mean, I wouldn't cartells do the same thing.
It makes those correspondences so much more powerful and so much more revealing in the sense what I'm experiencing right now is the idea of the atman is Brahmin, which is variously expressed, and your story of being revealed o Cyrus and Osirius as you it's like the same same kind of thing and very very interesting.
Yeah, the big challenge has been, you know, untangling the similarities from the differences and what is this, what is the similarity cloaked in a symbol, and what is actual really a difference. And then on top of that, it's not just similarities that are associated with NDEs. For example, there's only in Native American accounts and ancient Greek accounts is there's this idea of rocks that are clashing together in the other world and you have to like slip
through the rocks before your soul is squished. So that's an ancient Greek myth. There's no NDE with with that theme in it, but there are Native American indies with that theme. And there's you know, pretty much no possible way that Native Americans of the nineteenth century or earlier. We're learning ancient Greek myths from missionaries. You know, they're going to be tough biblical teachings because the goal is to convert them.
So you know why that's the case.
It was just some somebody had the same idea across cultures in thousands of years apart. They just their their mindset. Okay, what's another cool way I can illustrate dangers in the other world?
And they came up with this. That's the only way I could explain it.
Do anybody want to ask anything before I ask another question?
Sure, I'll jump in really quick. Thank you, Nick. So I thought it was really great, doctor Shohn.
When you kind of described the post Vedic we'll say, like aman landscape of that. But there is a really interesting contract parallel to Osiris. You probably are familiar with it. But Shiva, who is more you can describe as like a daytime god and then his ferocious form, his kind of nighttime form is Birava.
So you could.
Say in a way that those parallel, at least parallel those two figures. And he even has a specific form called Samhara by Rava, who is like the liberatory by Rava. So it is kind of like both the apotheosis and the unification at the same time. So I think that's quite interesting. And he is often described as blazing red like ten thousand. All contract texts really described that, but blazing red like ten thousand sounds.
So I do think that's quite interesting.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good parallel, and it's true. I mean in the different Indian and Hindu traditions that you know, apotheosis, transcendence, divine union or realization of divinity of the self is just like permeated throughout a lot of Hindu traditions.
Well, he also has an association with the Nine, which I that's what initially sparked that. So I was actually wondering if Osius has any astrological association that you're aware of. If you're not, that's really okay.
But yeah, he is.
He's associated with installation of Orion, but I don't I don't know the significance of that, to be honest, but I did find that I'm not calling it to mine right now, but there were other other afterlife deities associated with with Orion, which is there might be some significance there that's passed.
Me by doc I what you and Jen we're talking about right now, And then something you said earlier about the being of light. Isn't there like a practice in Lakota where they have like a sun ritual where they pierce themselves and hang for about four or five days, and they I guess they do it not only for the Sun ritual, but a communion with the spirit, the capital,
the capital s spirit. And then you would mention the jaguar, and I from what I've read, the jaguar is very symbolic as the I guess representation of the Sun for for sure in in Incan, but also with Aztec and Mayan.
And then with what you're saying about all of this stuff, is it is it that they are trying to commune with the Sun or with a star because when you mentioned Orion, Orion had in its belt, has the nebula where stars are born, and almost seems to be kind of coming together in a way to me in my head.
And I may be wrong, but yeah, I don't know if they're you know, so much depends on what they think and see these stars and planets in the Sun as so whether they're trying to communicate with it as a planet or a stars, or as the being that it embodies or the being that they think it is. I think a lot of that is kind of becomes inaccessible to us because we're we the evidence we have is so limited, and we can't get inside the heads
of these these past people. But it's also the case that in different cultures, including ancient Greece, they actually saw the stars as souls of the dead, and then there's some mystic examples of that too. In the Povo, I think that the souls are stars, so that might be I think a key element that that the stars are seen as these deities to be communicated with in some
of these different traditions. I should add with Native American cases, though, the ghost dance tradition, which which a lot of people have heard of, the ghost dance is basically a kind of democratized shamanic ritual for accessing knowledge in the other world.
So people will do.
Repetitive dancing and chanting and again probably drug taking with the intention of collapsing, visiting the spirit world, and coming back to life. But what's so interesting about that to me from from my perspective is that these these traditions were founded on the near death experiences of their profits.
So actual individuals had NDEs came back to life and said, now I'm going to teach you how to access this other world, and so that included, you know, communing with beings of light and different kinds of deities and spirits in the other world. And I think that's a parallel with the you know, the sun tradition that you were talking.
About, yeah, and what you're talking about with the ghost dance. I think the aspects and minds also have that same dance. And I want to say they call it sol which is like the Sun dance as well. So that's very interesting. How like it all just revolves around almost the same thing over and like you said, across cultures, it is conserved, right, it's almost you know, the.
Same, Yeah, I mean, just the fact, aside from NDEs, just the fact that so many different cultures have their own methods of trying to bring about a visit to the other world by leaving your body. I mean, that's that's already a pretty interesting thing. And then when you add on the NDE layer to that and see it as you know, nds are spontaneous, it's not like they're people are trying to have them for the most part.
So I think those cermonic traditions basically emerged from people having NDEs and talking about them, and people thinking, oh, well, how can I get there without actually dying.
Something? I did when I ask, and I think this might be like a good good way to go into it without kind of getting off the topic when it comes to uh these NDEs. And I know before you had mentioned knowledge and now you're mentioning people that like want to have this experience like usually hearing about it.
I guess what is it that is a benefit? Like is one like when you mentioned knowledge before, I've had said on the show it's not to the extent like the matrix with NEO, but when I've had magical experiences, I will wake up and understand things I didn't know before. Is that something that when you said knowledge? Is that something like you're getting out like understanding things that made
no sense prior? Or is it like? And what is the other like what's the known benefits to these people that are practicing this stuff for this like why are they doing.
It for a spontaneous in near death experiences? It's practically a universal thing that there is some benefit to having had the experience, so either even it's even just as basic as like I no longer fear death.
There's lots and lots of people who say that.
Some claim that they have telepathic or precognitive kinds of abilities.
Some people just are nicer.
They come back and they're like philanthropic and they they're kinder people, and they might devote their work to their lives to charity from that moment. And then in different cultures, there's Native American examples where they're given instructions and kind of detailed descriptions of like a particular kind of healing plant and like go find this plant on this particular hillside, and that will cure you people of the current plague
that they're they're experiencing. Sometimes they're given like an actual physical object in the other world which they bring back, and that that stretches my credibility level because I don't think that physical object would be able to you know, what is physical in an afterlife.
Kind of realm.
But yeah, it's always some kind of positive, transformational kind of effect. And yeah, and it shows up symbolically in a lot of the ancient accounts.
It's interesting that you mentioned you mentioned something about I guess like understanding the plants. Whatever Lisa has brought that up before, I think is involved with like these people you tell the story. I don't want to think it for it.
Yeah, No, I spent I spent a little bit of time with a shaman down in Peru, the Amazonian p Amazon, and and he in questions and stuff like that I had of him. I asked him with the processes, and he had said, well, you know, it's passed down from son, from father to son. It's more of a lineage or
genetic type thing. But the processes, they send the sun out into the forest or into the jungle rather, and and they give up meat, they give up any kind of you know, desires of the flesh really, and in that year or two years, they're basically learning the language of plants. And at that point, through meditation everything, the plants begin to speak to them and tell them what is necessary for their tribe or what is a cure
for this. And the shaman went on to say that, you know, he talked about duality, that the spirit is very kind to the innocent mind, and that you know, a bite from the snake, and he held up, you know, a dead snake whatever. He held up a dead snake, and it had a checkerboard and then he goes, the cure to that is this and it was a bark, and then he placed it right next to the snake and a head a corresponding pattern, and so he even
went into that whole thing. But the he mentioned that the main thing was a communion of learning the language of the plants, because the plants help do everything. So that's interesting in.
That, Yeah, and that that's paralleled with you know, peyote traditions in the Southwest and Mexico and also in Africa with the god Eboga, who is the kind of deity of Ebogaine, which is a hallucinogenic plant. So yeah, these these plants are actually deified and they're they're seeing themselves as sources of knowledge too that you can directly benefit from.
And it's also in India there was soma. Nobody knows what soma was, but it was, you know, the way it's described, it was basically a hallucinogenic substance brewed from some kind of plants that in that is like an eye opening path to wisdom. So I think it's a that's a pretty common.
Cross cultural theme.
And again a lot of them have associations with, you know, visions of the other world in the afterlife.
Yeah, they're the whole is asca thing. You have to combine two separate plants and who would have come up with separate I mean, with combining those two separate plants, But they said it was given to them when the Shamans walked with them their their ancestors. And then obviously the ritual of going through an ayahuasca ritual that you're basically you know.
Whatever have you.
But yeah, I mean you would have never combined those two unless it had the knowledge had not been given to them during that knowledge ritual.
Yeah right.
I do find this interesting, this whole idea with the plants telling you or speaking to you, because you know how many known occultists put out books on herbs and plants. It is like a constant thing if you really, like, if you were to look at it, like a lot of occultists, like you know within like Wickan or flee Make or you know anything, you know, any kind of a tradition is a lot of them do cover herbs a lot. I mean, I just I just found anything
and then another thing. Not to get into it, like too far, but it's just like even when it comes to occultists or scientists that are a cult especially Nazis, they're huge into phlebotomy, I mean botany, bany, the huge into plants like this just seems like something interesting with I guess the magicians and their obsession with plants. Yeah, yeah, something behind that. I don't know, this is a common.
I wanted to say that I love the expression that you coined the shamanic replication process? Am I saying? Am I saying it correctly?
Yethesis? Yeah? Hypothesis?
Excuse me.
It makes me think that this is a useful terminology for not only the ND elements that we see in religion, but a lot of a lot of other things are very much part of a shamanic replication and opposite. A lot of new or modern religion is shamanic rejection too, rite, I mean a lot of it has the total a version of the feminine and herbal systems.
For instance, Well, the piggy back off of what Nick said, I think that there is actually a Native American one of them. That there's a mohawk myth about the first woman. So she's like the falling star, I guess you could say. So she falls from the pleroom on to the turtle's back, and she's lonely. So who does she call down from heaven? She calls down the medicine men. That's the first people that come. But they don't come as people, they come
as plants. So I think that that is maybe like because you can look at the plants as just a grammar, just like you people do with astrology, Like there's much stronger astrologers than me, but that you can look at plants in very much the same way, just like we often do on the show with Kabbala and all that.
So I think that's the relationship. It's like I said, doctrine of signatures, and I think this is like what both Lisa and Nick really spoke to was this, like so there are kind of patterns that you can recognize that maybe aren't yeh. The story is cultural, but there's something that also transcends that.
And almost even almost even the actions of what the people get into after the facts seem to be almost common. Like even look at the Voyage manuscript there people are trying to figure that out and it's a book of plants are herbs and I don't even know if they're real or not, and their uses of it. It says again funny how it's like another work by an ocultist and it has to do with like understanding herbs and
what they're used for, like they speaking to you. It's just the whole thing again, you're stuck on understanding what all these.
Herbs are for.
Yeah, it's just in a different scenario to like.
Ancient sumer and the you know epic of Gilgamesh. Part of his journey, which is he has after life journeys, he goes to Paradise, he goes he basically has a near death experience. Part of his goal is to seek out the plant of life, the plant of immortality. And then there's parallels in China and India and elsewhere as well. I don't know if there's any culture wark it doesn't exist, some kind of a they're seeking some supernatural plant.
That's interesting, I mean. And then I think I think Lisa might have said it before on the show. I think the plan has a lot of same signature. Basically, like a human life is formed something like that has the Fibonacci sequests within it, or they used.
To most of the arrangements in the way that they're formed follows you know, the golden ratio or the Fibonanci ratio, and so that's kind of like you know, redundant and especially you know, with when you get into Pythagoras or Empedocles or anything like that of the ancient philosophers, they start to kind of allude to something of the sorts. But even going back all the way to the beginning
of this episode, the not the number nine. I believe there was a Pythagoreans that did not like the number nine because because they it just it was beyond them. So they were obsessed with ten, right, But when it came up to nine, they they were not They didn't really like it. I guess that's kind of what I read or whatever, that it baffled them. It's done.
They despised the number two for its diffiveness.
Also start on.
And then some of the in Egypt, whenever they're depicting, you know, about death and whatever, the lotus flower is the lily is present throughout some of the.
So mhm, yeah, I'm actually my name comes from the Egyptian word for lotus, which is sho shine. So maybe I have some ancient Egyptian ancestor way back.
Awesome. One question I didn't want to ask you, and I really want to do it at the beginning, but maybe it's a good idea to do it near the end. Now, what was what was the idea that sparked the passion for you to even write this book?
I mean it was really obviously like life after death is kind of a universal interest, you know, I guess for people who just you know, automatically dismiss it as ridiculous to begin with. But you know, when I first read about Dyes, when I was like a teenager, I just thought I already had an interest in like, you know, paranormal stuff, and I had books about, you know, weird events, and one called Phenomena about like, you know, how it rained frogs and fishes in medieval Europe and this kind
of just strange stuff. So I had this kind of baseline interest even as a pretty young kid. But there was something about NDEs that just seemed like, wow, so these people are clinically dead for a period measurable by actual science, then come back and talk about these experiences and they seem to have these similarities. But I didn't really pursue it. It was it was just something that
kind of lodged in my in my brain. And then I had read a book by Carol Zeleski called Other World journeys, and she basically looked at medieval accounts of monks and nuns who traveled to the other world and
come back, and they're basically near death experience. And that stuck in my head too, because she makes this She draws all these parallels with near death experiences in those accounts, the context and the contents of the accounts and the culture and all this stuff, and then at the end she basically says, but they're all products of the imagination.
I just thought, wait, how can that be.
The case if you know, these ancient medieval accounts are similar to contemporary accounts. So that kind of argument lodged in my head, and then it just kind of resurfaced as I was doing the research on the Egyptian afterlife texts and snowballed from there, you know, twenty six years later or whatever it is now and I am now doing like my fourth study on the subject, which is going to be ancient Greek and Roman near death experiences.
So rather than like a big comparative kind of thing, it's really just kind of drilling down into the different ways that Greeks and Romans viewed and ease, you know, like the myth or that Plato talks about. He presents it as an illustration of his philosophies and the things that he's arguing about the immortality of the soul. But then people later on just think like, wow, that was embarrassing.
You know.
There's a later a Roman text called the Dream of Cipio where it's believed that he actually had an NDE, but Cisero thought, no, that's just too unbelievable and too embarrassing. Plato failed with it, so I'm just going to say it was a dream. So this idea of how they were perceived over time, I think it is really interesting, and sometimes they're just ridiculed as well in some of these ancient texts.
You know, I find it interesting. You said that you're in the stuff, you're into this stuff at a very young age. Did you ever think, like, I guess, maybe like in the middle of your life, that you'd be like coming back and like full circle to be able to look at the things that interest you as a child and be able to incorporate it in your life and like live like live your life like in a sense like that.
Now, No, I didn't at all, And in fact, you know, yeah, I thought I was standing to be an egyptologist, you know, I was going to be a straight up egyptologist.
And as I was going, I was thinking, like, Okay.
Do I want to retranslate the same literary texts over the years? Do I want to go on excavations and get emphasem of breathing and all that dust? And basically, you know, Egyptology is such an incremental process. It's like there there aren't huge discoveries that's going to lead to some new shift and knowledge over time. They might find a lot of more lot more artifacts or whatever, but it's very kind of the things that are being learned
are very incremental. And I just thought, do I want to be stuck in that one civilization for the rest of my life? And I thought, no, I actually like to do this comparison with ancient India. And then oh, that's interesting, And so I just kept branching out essentially, and and NDEs gave me that focus and kind of opportunity to look into all of these different cultures and civilizations around the world.
For you, Yeah, thanks, anybody else got any more questions?
I haven't, okay too, oh No, I just wanted to ask our guests that if he is familiar with Korean shamanism and the Princess Bari myth, because I think it perfectly fits in with both his sort of nine criteria and also a very interesting because it posits like not the Anana figure, but like sort of like a daughter of man to go into the underworld and retrieve like
sometimes it's given like a Buddhist tax. Sometimes I'll say, like Kishi Garba, who's the Buddha of the hell realms or the Earth matrix, and so she'll have to go down herself and retrieve it as part of like her test orthurgic kind of process.
You could say, no, I'm not familiar with that, but but I will look into it. I know a scholar who works in out of body experiences in Korea, Samantha Lee Treasure, who has a new book out on ubiz.
I bet she would know about it, so we'll ask her, thank you very much. But I did. I did find that.
Uh, there was a Chinese nde of a woman named Meo Sean who was about to be beheaded by her father because she didn't want to become a Buddhist nun. And just as that was about to happen, she's carried away by a tiger in the forest and she has a new death experience that comes back, and according to this myth, she then becomes, you know, the the prominent
Buddhist figure of Kwanyin. So that's that's an interesting text of like basically an NDE context given for the emergence of this you know, extremely important Buddhist figure.
Well, that's really interesting.
Sorry, at least that you that you say that, because guan Yin has other kinds of we'll say incarnations or forms that are directly related to coastal like Chinese coastal shamanic practices where they actually apotheosized the female shaman ask into like the their kind of diaism.
We'll say, it's like a broad category. So yeah, great, thank you.
Sure, Yeah, yeah, that's I talk about that a little bit in the book. Even though it was after the periods I was looking at, because I was looking at pre Buddhists China, I thought this was just too interesting of an example to leave out.
Yeah.
My mine was just more of a comment that all of this reminds me. And I don't know if you have seen the series of the OCA, I'm sorry, Yes, on and it reminds me of a lot that purposeful trying to die or flatliners right back back, how they were trying to you know, get further and further out
to find more and more information. And so it almost it almost makes me feel like that, you know, they're the modern day version of like what you were talking about, them trying these different cultures trying to gain all this information and access. That was it. It was just a comment.
Yeah, Yeah, it's interesting how it kind of entered into the pop cultural zeitgeist. But I haven't heard of actual people, you know, trying to do flat lighting. I mean, I guess there's there's a pretty big explosion in people wanting to go to Ayahuascow with shamans and things like that and or d MT or whatever it is, and I think that probably ties into like the shamanic impulse that humans just happen to have.
H That was one thing I also wanted to ask you, Uh, I guess, you know, maybe it has gotten a little bit more popular than the normal, But do you think going forward in the future, do you think maybe they'll be more scientific and maybe public interest in understanding NDS one.
Ah, it's really hard to say, I think unless unless some scientists can can come up with some good evidence that then needs to be tested again and get some kind of media attention. And if they're a you know, valid scientist publishing in a peer review journal, I don't think so.
I think there's just as much.
Hostility and negative reaction to the subject as there's always been.
Really, and you.
Know, pretty much every every article that comes out in the media is about scientists discover NDEs or all in the brain. You know, there's a recent one about this. You know, they've identified a burst of electromagnetic energy right at the moment of death in humans and in rats, and so they said that must be the life review. This is, you know, the responsible for all the barriers in the brain shutting down right.
At the moment of death.
So your your consciousness has flooded with all of your memories happening at once. But the challenge to that is cross culturally, that that life review doesn't really happen. You know, I haven't found accounts of like this big panoramic life review, and they need to kind of expand their their theorizing to include cross cultural diversity of these kinds of experiences, which which so far hasn't happened yet.
I guess from from from what I gathered from you is the Egyptians weren't in necessarily focus on reincarnation but the afterlife. But could you compare or or are there comparisons between the Book of the Dead, if you will, from Egypt and the Book of the Dead into that that was found, And I wonder maybe isn't the Book of the Dead in Egypt more accurately named the Book of coming forth by day? Could you could you break that down a little bit?
Yeah, I mean I looked mostly at the earlier afterlife text The Book of the Dead is made up like basically two thirds of the Pyramid texts and Coffin texts, which which preceded it by you know, over a thousand years. I wanted to look at the earliest phases of Egyptian religion before there was much possibility of influence from other cultures.
So but having said that, for the most part, it is this, they're all guide books to the afterlife, and they're ritual texts that where the ritual action would kind of mirror the activities of the soul in the other world in order to kind of facilitate their safe passage
and achieving a positive afterlife. In the Egyptian case, it's you know, as I mentioned, whether that ultimate state was this kind of omnipresent, transcendent kind of thing, or whether it was certain people went to the field of Russia's and had this eternity and the happy hunting grounds, and certain people joined the Sun god on the cosmic circuit. That's kind of unclear. With the Tibetan text, you know,
the goal I think is clearer. It's also which met book of the Dead is known as the Bardotzal Total. It's also a guidebook to the afterlife realm, but focuses more on the afterlife realm being an intermediate state either prior to a new rebirth or that you transit through on your way to liberation for the extremely limited few
people who can attain that. And so part of that is, you know, recognizing the illusory nature of what's going on in that experience, and recognizing the clear light of pure reason as an illusion rather than as a deity, and being able to kind of overcome that.
In order to avoid being reborn. Basically, so that whole element of.
You know, rebirth and liberation is absent from the Egyptian text, and I don't know if that's because you know, they saw they just didn't have the concept of rebirth, and maybe that state in the other world was the divine liberated state. And in fact, an interesting parallel to make is the main fear in the Egyptian Book of the Dead in pyramid texts and coffin text wasn't like you know, damnation or anything like that, or even rebirth. It was annihilation.
It was basically this fear of non existence. So they have these different demons, like there's apes that will threaten to cut off your head or a snake that spits fire, but it wasn't like the pain or the torment that they're going to cause you.
It's the fact that they.
Could lead you to non existence, that you're going to be annihilated if if your soul is killed by these these kind of entities. So you know, if you can make that parallel in some ways that in some sense into ben and Buddhism, annihilation is liberation, and then egypt annihilation is like the ultimate horrible fate.
Thank you, that's great, thank you.
Sure, I'm gonna ask uh probably wrap it up soon. We ask you a ton of questions already. Thank you very much. I appreciate you dealing with them. Is there anything that you want to say about your book? You know, but you know his book before we wrap it up, that you might want to at least, you know, promote or push a point whatever it is.
Yeah, I mean, I think we covered a lot of basically what it does. I talk a little bit about it in the end, about you know, in light of all the diversity of near death experiences and afterlife beliefs, like what kind of afterlife could even be conceivable? Because you know, some scholars will say, you know, if there is an afterlife, then why are all these why are
all these NDEs different? So I was kind of trying to find a way to reconcile that idea and to think, like, why does everyone's after life experience have to be the same in order for it to be valid? And so I kind of came up with this idea of like I called the projection model of a near death experience, where essentially those nine elements that we talked about at the beginning or something like them, you're leaving the body,
encountering the being of light, and deceased relatives. These kinds of things happen more or less to most people having an NDE, but we all project our cultural symbolism on them while they're happening.
So it's not just like.
We come back and make sense of it, but I think we actually perceive them in a way that it's almost like our culture and our symbols make them perceivable, make them experienceable, and without that then it would just be this kind of blank experience, if that makes any sense.
So I think that.
Diversity isn't necessarily a challenge to their really actually being an afterlife state.
And I also think that.
There's some really interesting Native American examples where missionaries are trying to convert them and saying, you know, you need to believe this what it says in the Bible. This is what Jesus said about your reward in heaven and possible punishment and hell, and these Native American people would say, well, actually,
hang on a minute. We know somebody who died and came back to life just last year, and he told us what it's going to be like in the other world, and that kind of flicks with a lot of what you're telling us and you're basing what you're saying on something that happened, you know, thousands of years ago, So why should we believe you. So I think there's a kind of lesson to be learned from that. In contemporary society.
I'm always surprised at how many people were kind of continue to have fears of death based on what I think of as like toxic theology, the kinds of religious beliefs that they grew up with that were they were conditioned to fear death and essentially to fear the process of dying. They think they're going to go to hell, they think they're going to be judged and tormented by devils. And the people who are closest to the dying experience,
people who have endes, aren't saying any of that. You know, they come back and say, I saw this amazing being of light, I had this transformative experience, And they come back happier, better people, who are more charitable, and more
open to diversity and all these kinds of things. So I kind of feel like there's there's wisdom and knowledge and to be gained from listening to those experiences, where whereas people are more used to falling into the doctrine of organized religious beliefs, which you're often based on fear and manipulation and control, which I don't go into much in the book, but it's but it's kind of a the natural progression in a way of how to think about this stuff and where it all leads.
To definitely, uh, weird stuff to like I don't know something, something's up with it, and it's like unexplainable. And I really appreciate you coming on and talking more about it with us. Definitely something. I mean, maybe in the future we get you back on again, we could talk more about it or your other writing, you know, all the works as well, but.
Sure, anytime.
And yeah, that's I mean, the more I've learned about it, there's always some there's always some like almost like the afterlife obstacles that the souls encounter. There's always some obstacle thrown in the path. Like you can't just find one single way to understand this and then write them off as like, Okay, it's experience of life after death or okay, it's just all in the brain. It's just way more complicated than most people think.
Yeah, yeah, I mean again, like you were saying, you know, I said before, sometimes like this is just different for different people because it's the language they understand in their brain. With the pre program too, you were saying before people
see Jesus, see people see Buddha. Why I guarantee you when was a Christian that were Kintholic that was seeing Jesus like you know, or they were exposed to that at some point in their life and so it's uh again, It's just I think it's a very deep thing to try to think about and understand what the body and the soul is going through, you know. Very interesting. Yeah, uh again, Gregory, thank you so much for coming on. That was an amazing chat. Really, that was an amazing episode.
I really appreciate it.
So thanks for having me on.
Yes, yes, and all your stuff will be in the bottom after the show. Actually, if you don't mind, you can email me every single link you want me to put down there in the show notes and I will include it. Okay, great, awesome, And again, thank you Lisa. I really appreciate you coming on. Ethan and Jin the Ninja again, you know, the rejects guys are great, awesome questions. I really appreciate you joining me. Yeah, thanks, Yes, definitely,
and again go check out his stuff. And I would even say go look up for other interviews he's done. He's done other interviews on other shows. He's doing other interviews on you know, other shows. I'm sure I saw something that you did from twelve years ago. Go check out his work on YouTube. He's got some stuff out there, you know, he's got some interesting stuff to talk about, you know. So thank you again. And that is the end of another recult rejects. Until the next one. Everybody be well later.