You see, something's going to happen.
What What's gonna happen?
What?
Help? Welcome to the Occult Rejects this episode, I got a couple of the rejects with me, and we got a Brandon new guest on today, and before we introduce her, we'll introduce the other rejects with us, and I got my boy, headless giant. What is going on, sir? I finally got to meet this man after about three and a half years. He got stuck spending three days with me in an event and I had a blast. And I have to even say, yo, you know, for real, for real, when I met the guy, it was just
like it wasn't even weird. It was just like it was already my boy. Like it's hard to explain, like there was no uncomfortability at all. I was just like, yo, it's fucking endless finally, you know. And we got a blast. But thank you, man for jumping on. I know yesterday sucked to getting home soon as me. Yeah, it was horrible. I didn't get on about Tull thirty, but I appreciate you jumping on today. Man, What is going on?
Absolutely? I'm happy to be here, and so is Beans. He missed me for the last two weeks, so he's not gonna let me have a moment of relaxation here. But if you guys want to check me out, I'm on Twitter and I'm on Instagram. Just look up Headless Giant and you'll find me there. I had an awesome time this weekend. Hopefully we get a chance to talk about it or something on stream. That was an incredible time. And uh yeah, so check me out. I've got seven seven seven coming up tonight with you, so.
Oh hell yeah, I totally forgot about that. I forgot it's Tuesday. Holy shit. Yeah, I keep on thinking it's Monday, like yeah, yeah, that's funny. Well, thanks for the reminder. I appreciate that. What he said I would have received the Lincoln. I'd be like, what the fuck? Oops? Uh uh yeah, go check out holy stuff. And Matt, thank you so much for coming on my man. I always
appreciate you making it on. I know you're over in Italy still right, correct, Yes, that's awesome man, that's awesome the Atlantic.
Yeah, pretty happy to be here. Always nice to talk about the stuff that I like as well. So Tarat definitely is up there. And yeah, I mean, you can find me on many platforms always Matt more on nineteen so that's Instagram, X, YouTube, TikTok, Twitch, maybe some other pists. And there's also the Gray Lodge we do we host weekly spaces on X that's always on Fridays, and you can also find the videos there, the ones we save in post to YouTube on the True Gray Lodge dot com.
With the v so true.
And also my website kabala dot com that's k A A b A l a h dot com. Doing some late here readings before it change the stuff that I'm providing there, so if you want to do that, make sure to grab it quickly before it changes. But yeah, pretty hapy to be here in let's have a great comp all.
Right, thank you man. I really appreciate your making it again as well, always like when you're here. And finally, the guest Sabrina Scott. She's in Tataro. She's an author, She's got a bunch of stuff that I'm sure we can all talk about today. Very excited to get you on, so please Sabrina, you know, let people know like what your deal is and where they can find all your amazing work.
Oh my god, Hello, so excited to be here and to finally, like E meet all of you. I feel like it's going to be a really fun little chat. So for anyone who doesn't know me, I guess I'm a professional witch and have been for more than a decade. And I've been reading cards for twenty five years, been into witchcraft for twenty five years. Grew up in a fun thing called spiritualism that means like seances, mediumship, table tipping,
like transpossession, all that fun shit. Got to see that before I turned ten, so definitely has influenced a lot of my perspective on a lot of this kind of like witchy woo woo magical occult stuff. That's a little bit of a unique, fun little thing about me. Also doing a PhD in a science department about trauma and witchcraft and how witchcraft can be a healing thing for trauma. So it's a bunch of what I do. And if anyone is curious to check me out on the good
old interwebs. Sabrina Mscott dot Com, Instagram, Sabrina M Scott. What else YouTube is slash Sabrina Scott because I guess there's not as many Sabrina Scotts on YouTube, so I was able to get it without the.
M oh nice, it's yeah all right, yeah, and I'll definitely include all your links at the bottom as well.
So awesome, thank you.
Yes, yes, I know, like I guess, you know, I guess, you know, just to jump right into it. You know, you have started off young. You know you were probably as for what I get out of it, you were brought up into it. So if you don't mind, like you know, I guess as personal as as you mind getting uh, could you let us know like how that how that was? Normally I would ask my guests what what got you into this stuff? You know, you were born into it, so you know.
Yeah, yeah, so we kind of yeah, unique upbringing, I suppose you could say. So. My mom was super big into spiritualism, so she was always into mediumship and stuff like that, as was her mother. So if we count down the lines, I guess technically I'm seventh generation with
all of that stuff. And so it was really really cool to be able to grow up in an environment where I could basically compare like spiritual notes like with my mom to be like, all right, I'm picking up on this spirit like and I would hold it in my mind and really, right, Mom, what are you picking up on? And then she'd be like blah da da da, and like kind of rattle off, and I'd be like, yes,
that's exactly what I'm getting. So, when we're talking about like building spiritual confidence and like spiritual skill building, it was really sweet to have access to that kind of evidential comparing notes type of thing from a really really young age. I think a lot of people struggle with that or struggle with confidence in terms of spirituality and like energy work skills and like is this real? Am
I making this up? Like I've heard that from so many newer practitioners, and so is very blessed to kind of be able to have someone to bounce this stuff off of and just to have that kind of early confirmation. And so for anyone who doesn't know about spiritualism, it was found in the eighteen fifties upstate New York, which is actually where my mom lives. So it's like kind
of an interesting little thing. So she's still like involved with the church, the og Spiritualist Church, and it considers itself a science of religion and a philosophy, and it's really big on proving the existence of life after death, like the continuation of the soul be a medium ship and healing and so growing up with that first and foremost like it really has influenced my perspective on things like taro witchcraft stuff like that and no shade like
a lot of taro and witchy people. But I do feel like a lot of folks out there practicing would not know what to do if a spirit actually showed up, do you know what I mean? Like there is a lot of that, at least in like the witchy space, maybe not so much like the cultism space, if you know what I mean.
You know, I get that. I mean I've even asked I mean, this is a little loft, but I mean it's kind of almost the same comparison. I've asked bigfoot people, what are you gonna do when you do finally see him? I'll probably fucking run.
Hey, what do people say when you ask that?
When you finally got them? Now, what are you going to do? When people were like I have people on the show, and some of them didn't even have an answer right away because they're like.
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, And so I guess I got to kind of see the real deal of it all from a really young age. So like the question of like is this real or am I delusional? You know, that question was never really a thing, just because I did get to have so much confirmation and evidence.
Yeah, that's especially from a person that you trust totally.
That was a thing that was even I mean, it wasn't one of the reasons why I had left the OTO, but like when I started having my experiences, I realized I was like, yoh, there's nobody even here I could talk to about this, because I tried to like kind of with a few people, and I was just like, it's a fox point for me to be here because like and then some of the just keeping a real some of the other people there, I felt like if I was as them, they run with some like wild delusion,
you know, I'm just just concox some crazy woo woo shit. And I just wasn't comfortable even talking to people. So it kind of sucked. I was like, well, why even be here now at this point?
I don't what crazy woo would they say? Now?
Like I don't know, probably like ah, it was like some a trial. It was just I had spoken to somebody I remember they were trying to tell me some weird ask the travel ship, and I was like, all right, I could kind of grasp that, but they were like getting like weird about it, and I was just like or I had people telling me like certain like specific Oh it was a certain like deity and this and that. I'm like, the fuck, I don't know. It was just hard to explain, it was. It was just hard toks.
I was like, well, how did that come out of like what I was doing. It's just like I had my eyes closed, meditating in my chair and you're telling me about you know, fucking ayes Modius sometimes ship.
You know, I don't know, it's weird sometimes people's interpretations.
The thing.
You know, what the problem was is I was never even able to get out like exactly like it was before he was even done explaining myself. I was already getting answers, and I was like, see, like you should. You haven't even listened to the whole fucking thing yet. That's had I think was the major problem. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, it was just like you're already throwing answers out there before I even explained this whole fucking visual feeling scenario I went through No, Yeah, so
it just wasn't comfortable. So you're lucky you had that experience, you know.
Yeah, truly it's a blessing. I do think a lot of people there is life trying and figure that out.
Yeah, well there is a gulf between the magic community and the paranormal community that didn't exist all throughout history. Because they're going to these places that are haunted and they're summoning the spirits of talking to them. That's where they get all their magical practices from. You know, it's firsthand experience. But I think a lot of people have sort of lost sight of that.
Yeah, and you know what, that's gonna make me sound kind of like a bitch, But I feel like some of the paranormal community people like don't fully get what's going on, like looking at it from like the witchy energy mediumship perspective, like there's I'm sure you're probably what I'm talking about, Like there's some of those big shows where they're on like a little in Paranormal Adventure and like looking at it like as an occultist, like as
a magical practitioner, as an energy worker, as a medium I'm just like, oh man, people know what they're doing and it's like low key stressful to be like what are you doing? Like can I just come and teach you the ways? And then this is all going to go so much better and you're going to not be scaring yourself over the most basic shit like can we just all come hang out? Like let me show you
guys the ways? And it's it's interesting, Like so I think you're right, Like there is that golf where like some witchy people or occult people could stand to get more of their hands dirty with going out there, and then the the paranormal people like could stand to learn a little bit more about what those of us over here in a cult mediumship, witchy energy land have to say. Like there is there's not a lot of people who are having that kind of cross cultural accomp station.
I like how you mentioned, uh right, you got to go ahead? Hell's sorry, Well I was going.
To say, you got to get them tickets to lily Dale. You know lily Dale. Something we still going on.
It is, it's right there, You're just got to pay the entry fee to go chill. There's still doing their thing.
I like, how you men go ahead, No, I.
Got Chris to understand, like, how do you practice uh this spiritualism because we have it in Brazil's well probably a different like uh the tape from a different origin because I know from Brazil the guys came from friends.
So it's like the car neck and whatever.
There's like a bunch of if you mentioned the other ones, maybe probably some Anglo Saxon like if it started in New York as well. But like in Brazil we have the median ship, we have the tables and one. We have a lot of Heaton passes what they'll say like you go and take it past or whatever. But there's for like outside people, there's there's also a communication sometimes like you get like a letter read in order something like that, Like how different just to kind of start try to grasp in man.
Yeah, I'd be curious to hear more about what the situation is in Brazil to really be able to be like an actually solid answer on that. But in terms of technique wise, like all of what you just mentioned sounds very aligned. But even within North America, like spiritualism does have like specifically spiritualism does have different little factions.
So NFB see like the National Spiritual Association of Churches, which is kind of what I grew up around, and that would be the lily Dale version of spiritualism is really a bit different than non NSAC forms of spiritualism in North America, Like and there's so within the NSAC there's like there's rules, there's certain you know, stuff that is cool and certain stuff that is not cool. Like they're really big on keeping things kind of purest like no tarot, no tool know, nothing, like they just want
it to be pure bodywork. And other let's say, forms of sputualism in North America are a little bit more like las A fair some of them are a little bit more Christian inflected, whereas NICC definitely is not. And so there are some kind of interesting little tensions there.
I think this. I was talking to someone about this last night actually, I did another podcast interview and she's out in the UK, and she was kind of saying the same thing is going on out there in terms of the different spiritualist factions out Yonder kind of battling each other. So it seems like it all kind of comes from a very common route or common series of
folks who are influencing the thought in the practice. But I'm sure there's there's always like little political infighting in terms of what's considered to be like the legit way to do it, and that's always going to be kind of different. But I would say that sounds like there's some similarities in terms of the practices and techniques for sure.
Yeah, but it's interesting that you mentioned that, for example, the day one, it's not necessarily religious, right, Is that right? Or or maybe less influenced, because what I mean, I think I understood you saying that there's like some that are more religious like Christian whatever focus, and some others maybe not that much.
Yeah.
I don't.
Yeah, so I would I would consider it religious, but I wouldn't consider it Christian.
Yeah, that's considered the.
Thing to be their own religion. They've got their little principles and all of that. But I don't actually think and I could be wrong on this, but last I heard, I don't think you're actually allowed to have property in Lilldale if you accept Jesus. Like, they're very like, we're doing our own thing here, like that has nothing to do with Christianity, so they are very kind of protective. I would say about about that in that sence.
Yeah, because in Brazil, like it's a very Catholic country, you know, for and portrayed guys and so on, so then it kind of got mixed with so the card next stuff was very very Christian, you know, it's like they even used the Bible and whatever in Jesus and so they talk about the same thing. But then it got synchronized with the African stuff and the native stuff.
So then we have like this mix and the branches are from the prely Christian guys, and then the ones that mix with the African stuff as well, and then the ones with mixed with the natives. So then there's and then there's the whole shebang. Like you said, oh this is we can't do it or we cannot do it. We can use it, we cannot use it.
But it's well at the end of the day, really, people.
And you know what, like Brazil to me seems like such an interesting place spiritually because there's so many different influences kind of interacting and coming together and having that conversation. So Brazil from what I know, and please correct me if this is wrong, but it seems to be one of the main places that what they call in like
the academic literature, like new religious movements Brazil. Like there's just so many different influences and stuff going on, So let's super interest thing to hear about from your perspective.
Yeah, there's a lot of mix, and like even for example, spiritualism came there and then a guy founded another thing called like a poma three I think.
With people in English, and then it's like a whole another thing. And so yeah, it's like a new religion every week. Well, Matt, if I could jump in.
So the one the Spiritualist society I went to was in Falls Church, Virginia, and I would say that they're more on the Christian side because they did have hymns and other you know Christian sort of paraphernalia going on before the service itself. But I think it served to sort of you know, focus and sort of get everybody in the same mindset to less so about you know, just the religious angle of it and more so about the focus though.
Yeah, it makes sense.
Yeah, and I've got no shade on Christians actually at all, Like it's just not og spiritualism.
I would say, Well, a lot of this comes from the Native American influence, right, So the Native American influence was a big thing in the Christian churches at that time period because they had practices that they were bringing into their church that the white people had never seen before,
and they're like, why can't we do that too? And so it's just sort of spread out from that sort of interaction, and I think it's you know, it represents something uniquely American that's now spreading across the world.
Yeah, it's interesting. Like as a part of my master's research, I did some looking into of the like Native American kind of indigenous influence with that, and there is a whole bunch of stuff to be said about that, a bunch of books as well. I could recommend, not off the top of my head, but there was a lot of kind of cross cultural conversation. And one thing that's really neat about lily Dale is like they do invite the local indigenous folks sometimes to come in and like
give workshops. Like that was actually a theme one year I can't remember it, probably like ten fifteen years ago, where they did have a whole bunch of kind of spiritually inflected classes taught by like the Iroquois. I think this is I'm wrong, but so they do support that kind of cross cultural conversation I think always have around spirit contact and what does that look like and people channeling let's say Indigenous spirit guides as well back in the day was also a big part of the conversation
back in the eighteen hundreds for sure. So that's your right to bring that up.
I have even noticed, you know, we've had people come on to cover like Native Americanism or just like certain things that I'll cover. I'll be like, oh my god, this is like you know, the micmac medicine. Will you know, there's even like a freemasonry. There's stuff that I think they've even taken from Native American symbols, you know, some secret societies too, So that is interesting crossover.
Absolutely.
One thing I did want to bring up. It was kind of something that Headless or who kind of went into with the whole paranormal that is interesting with the whole seance stuff, you know, that is again you know, going back to like you know, a lot of my opinion, I was just gonna keep a real ghost adventures. You know, you got Zach Baggins is always doing this silly fucking shit and every other show, it's like, oh, ritual was done here, Oh sience was done here, ritual was done.
You know, he's obviously my opinion, he's an a cultist anyway, but uh, he's he focuses on that shit, and he does make it seem rather fucking silly and stupid at times. But like if you start looking back, like back in the day, you know, the Council of Nine, there's even stories of like could you keep it real? The guys from Alcoholics Anonymous were even doing seances upstate New York. You know, you get people who are actually into the
occult and they're doing seances. You know, spiritualists who were you know, or occultist who got kind of more into spiritualism and started doing seances. I don't think people like you're saying, like, really understand like what they're imitating when they're doing these things on the paranormal shows.
Yeah, absolutely, which to me seems so odd because it's like all you gotta do is like do a little Google, read a.
Book, you know, or are they just grifting.
It's available and people are into that. It's just odd to me that they wouldn't do that one step further to be like all right, what else can I learn about this to make this process go a little bit more better?
You know, Yeah, it's funny that you talk about this.
I remember there's a guy in Brazil which got pretty big on RPG books and you know, like games and one, and he would put actual rituals in the thing, and then people would do and they would here, like you know, stuff in their home and like the lights flickering some kind of.
Yeah.
I mean, like you said, if they went at least in search for it, they would know what's going on. They're not just you know, doing it for random.
So I'm actually curious to know from your practice with the tear if you try to use also, for example, that your experience with spiritualism, or you try to focus only on the cars, like do you separate that or for you there's no separation, like there's always for.
Sure, it's your question. For me, I kind of blend it all and depending on the client, depending on what comes through. Some people's ancestors or whatever a little bit more chatty than others, and sometimes they're not there at all, which is always kind of interesting. But I don't sell
my services really with that in mind. And the reason for that is, in my experience, a lot of people seeking mediumship and psychics and all of that, and they really want their dead uncle Bob to like come through and say something like They're often coming from this kind of desperation e energy that I don't find super useful, like who cares if dead uncle Bob still loves you? Like it's fine, but is that going to help you make better choices in your life right now? Like probably not,
Like it's a nice kind of platitude. Realize that might sound a little bit intense, but that is kind of why I don't sell what I do in that way, even though behind the scenes, like energetically, often that is
a part of what's going on. So whenever I am reading for someone like am I sticking to the cards as a baseline, absolutely, But there is also that kind of energy work, intuitive, medium ships, psychicy type of vibe that all of that is going to my process in different amounts depending on who I'm in front of.
Nice nice as a case the case basis, I guess really.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Like some people's energy is easier to read than others. Some people are a little bit more forthcoming than others, and so there always is going to be a little bit of a different vibe depending on who I'm reading for.
I'm sure you can get somebody who comes in it's just like is like puken, you know, basically just doesn't shut up and it tells you so much stuff. And you can probably get some person who comes in like is dealing with you. It's like a little nervous. It maybe doesn't talk you.
As much, doesn't say anything.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's totally different to technique problem, Like.
It doesn't happen as much anymore. But in the past I have had some people comp and say absolutely nothing just to kind of like test me out or whatever. And then once they could see that my ship was legit, then they were like they chilled out a little bit and were like okay, okay, okay, and then kind of
opened up. So you do kind of get some of those sometimes too, where they just want to give you little tests and make sure that you're not full of shit, which is a little bit annoying, but it's okay, Like I always passed the test.
So I got to ask you, what is your favorite deck?
Oh my god, writerway smith O.
G okay, nice nice? I like.
I love that deck. It's just a vibe, like it's so good. I've got this is actually a really lovely gift from somebody. So it's like a pre digital printing of it. This is like actually from seventies and it's such a vibe, Like the colors are just so good. Yeah,
I love this deck. It's absolutely my favorite. Like what I love about it too, is if you put it in front of someone who doesn't know literally a damn thing about tarrow, like they will be able to know that this card sucks, you know, they will be able to kind of get the vibe like no one is happy to see this, whether you know about the carrow or not. So I like that the imagery is so evocative.
And my background is in illustration, so like I've done magazine covers all that, I've got two graphic novels out. So having good art that actually communicates the message that you want to have communicated for me is like the
most important thing. Like I really really prioritize that when I'm thinking about what decks are the best, and like can I read with you know a deck that literally just had the name of the cards written on it, and that was it, Like sure, I could absolutely do that, but as an artist myself, like, this is just this is the vibe, how about y'all?
I do. I'm a fan of a couple of them. I do like that deck and I started off at the Golden Dawn deck because of uh, there's a lot of associations on that card, which is another reason why I like the right Away deck because I think if somebody like, unfortunately it is just my opinion, you can pick up some Tarot decks and just like some people I think, will just be like, oh, it's just some
cool art that I'm supposed to interpret. It's like, no, there's actually associations with this shit to actually you know, help help, you know, give you an idea what you're looking at. And you know, some decks don't have that at all, and you know, I'm afraid some people lose, you know, the deepness to these cards. So I like the ones that have a lot of the associations on it to kind of like, you know, it's planetary shits, this and that elemental. So yeah, I do like those.
And I will say I do like Crowley the Toe deck, you know, I do like that one.
Yeah, and it's you bring up something really good. I think in terms of a lot of these kind of new decks not really having this symbol. And I do teach Taro to like total newbies, and one of the things I always tell them is, like, make sure that you choose the right deck, because sometimes you could be picking up on a deck that there is really no symbolism with that deck. It was just made by some random artists, bless their heart, who doesn't know a damn
thing about Taro. And the art looks sweet. But the reason I think a lot of newbies who pick up those type of decks are have like a struggle in their process of learning Taro. It's actually not on them, like it's on the fact that the deck makes no sense, and that is something I would love like people know more, because like, yeah, as experts are people who know this shit,
we can read anything. It's fine, But for a total newbie, like some of these decks are not going to make any sense because they're not designed by people who actually read.
Good.
And I even think I had to pull it out. I got the Muca Taro. I don't know if you guys have ever heard of Frog's muca, but right he started the art nouveau move these are inspired by his works. It's it's not by him, but they're they're pretty good. Uh, let me pull up another one here. Oh there's a good one, Ace of Cops just going. But yeah, that's definitely along the same lines. It's got to have some artistic relevance to you so that you can really get into the idea of the art and the motifs.
I'm giddy.
Yeah, yeah.
I have three decks that I use for different reasons, Like the I like the mythic one with the Greek stories.
It's pretty good for.
Readings because I mean, most people in the West know the Greek stories, so I can just say, you know hercules, and then it's like, oh, okay, I know more or.
Less what it is.
Like what you mentioned with the writer White one, you know, you kind of just get it a little bit, even if the person ever heard about it. And the imagery is also super nice then for some magical work, every like the one from Cahus, which is like has all the kabala astrology, anything your relations and also the Ima just super chemical ressle that's.
Also pretty nice for magic.
It's also the one that I was initiated in when learning Kamala. So it's again it's pretty clear to understand and when doing with like when I do a reading and there's a bunch of smaller like the minor arre kind of then I really enjoyed the Egyptian one, which has also pretty good explanations for the miner a kind of like pretty specific numbers and correlations and imagery responsor.
That's also pretty pretty.
Nice and I completely agree with you, Like if a Tarot deck is not made with the intention of being, you know, a terror deck, then you can call it a deck.
Maybe not a terror deck, like I've seen those, you know, like cold or whatever.
Sure, yeah exactly, it's like oh cool, sure you can call that a creator own thing.
But then that's not Terot. That's like absolutely, I guess.
It was our deck then yeah, so it's not like an actual practical reading deck. And like as artists, I got a beef with our decks. But like, make sure people know what it is, because then those the newbies are gonna get get fucked.
Up, yeah exactly, or like make it explicit if it's an oracle deck like that there's a system and whatever, but then okay, you you have the descriptions, it's something else, right.
I've only felt like a tarot snob. One time, this woman pulled out a deck that was made by what's that place in the mall that's next to at Spencer's. It was a Spencer's gift deck that had all these Halloween things as the different suits. It was. It was really bad, like they had the wolfmn on. There is like the Emperor card and stuff.
It was.
It was pretty bad.
There is an actual Halloween tarot and I actually have had a suit. It wasn't that one. Yeah, I did have a student once try to learn with that first, and I was like maybe not please please know.
So if you don't mind, like what was what would be like? I guess when you were like kind of growing up, like when you're into this stuff, what would have been like I guess your normal practices, like what was your I guess magical daily life like or even what is it like now too, you know whatever.
Honestly, it's it's pretty subtle these days, like I don't go too crazy. But when I was younger, it was a lot of spirit contact, spirit work, mediumship, whether that was just spirits chilling out ancestors. There was. There were like a few deities that I worked with back in the day. There were nature spirits, like land spirits, a dragon spirit that I was really vibing with as a kid, makes sense, I guess I was. It was a lot of mediumship and like animism and just connecting with place,
connecting with the objects around me. It was a lot of stuff like that, Like I had a little all so ritual candles, the whole shebang, like pretty much what you're kind of thinking. But for me, the most important thing for me magically has always been the spirit contact
piece and the energy work piece. Like I've never been super big in terms of like ceremonialism or you know, needing to do things in a particular exact OCD type of way, Like that's never really been the way that I've worked, Like I've always been a little bit more intuitive, spontaneous, like close to the ground, like riding the waves of
the vibes has always been my thing. Like for me, that's always felt the most magical, the strongest experiences, the best results I've gotten have been when it's come from a kind of immediate need rather than like, all right, it's five PM. It's magic time, Like let's go. And no disrespect to folks who do that. I think like some folks need to or some people's minds work best in that kind of regimented way. But that's never really
been how I've felt called to practice these days. I work with Santamente and also Saint Lucy and then my ancestor spirits as well, and the land also to some extent. So it's a lot of just energy based stuff. Nice this It doesn't really look like you're doing too much, but you are.
I get that. Yeah, do you get like a lot into like herbs and crystals and stuff or no, I don't know how much that stuff is incorporated into that stuff.
Like I can fuck with that, but like it's not the biggest part of my practice. I would say, like I have some little things around is like cute sea little things, but I'm definitely not one of those people that's got like twenty crystals. It's like, all right, what crystal we use them for the magic today? Like that's never really been my thing. And like, again, no shade
to folks you practice that way. I think it is to legit and I do believe that stones have energies and YadA YadA, but it's it's not a big part of my practice. I would say, like, I'm very like energetically focused in terms of how I work.
One question that came to mind.
I don't know if it works like this for you, but I know from some people that do work with like spirits or mediumship in this case, they would get, for example, not tips, but they would get like a job to be done, for example, like go and get the scandal on that time, on that whatever whatever, like very specific from the spirit. Do you know, get this other thing and mix it up and so on, So you do get those tides.
Yeah sometimes for sure. Yeah sometimes, But if I'm getting those instructions, I'm following them for sure.
Nice. Yeah.
And then and then that becomes like I'm telling this because I've saw a Cobblest doing this kind of study where he would study what the guys are requesting, and then he would see like the astrological time and whatever, and it would.
Make sense for ever work for what their requests.
So like a person doesn't even have to know because the guys already not telling them this just make it.
Yeah, I love that you brought that up. And like, for me, that also highlights the importance of that trust between like the practitioner and then whoever we're working with spiritually, to be able to trust first of all, that we've got some good spirits on our team and it's not just like some sketchy, random spirit fucking us up. I think some people don't know how to discern that, which
is interesting. But when we do have that spiritual relationship that is super strong, it becomes easier to trust some of these instructions that you're talking about and then having the faith in the whole process to actually execute on it, rather than to be like, oh, I'm getting this impression that I should get this at this time, but I'm just going to ignore that because I'm just making that up, which I have heard from some newer practitioners, especially that
they're kind of afraid to go down that path and follow whatever that let's say, inspired speech happens to direct them be doing. That's definitely an interesting thing to bring up.
Yeah, and I completely agree with you.
You've got to trust what you're listening to or like know how to differentiate because otherwise, yeah, I mean you also kind of trust it, right, Like you wouldn't do it because you don't trust.
If I know the.
Person's helping me is like an expert, it's like hiring a person in real life, right, if I'm hiring an expert, Yeah, I'm trusting with the guys talking involving him. You know, I'm hiring him because he's an expert. Yeah makes sense?
Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, that's huge.
Well, I think there's different styles to a lot of the contract work requires a lot of really highly segmented and uh specific forms, Whereas if you're just trying to get to know your local nature and everything else like that, you're already in that conversation. So tapping into that a little bit more is not going to require all those rituals and things.
Absolutely well.
I know you also with your pH d, Like, how does that tie into kind of like what you're doing.
Yeah, so okay, so TILDR. I'm doing a PhD in a Philosophy of Science department. So the other name for that feel does Science and Technology studies, So we basically look at science, what is it, how does it work? Blah blah blah. And so within that context, I am doing work on witchcraft and magic as a form of trauma healing, and so the tail dr on that, because it's like a lot of writing on it, is that trauma. We get there because we kind of are frozen and
we we're kind of paralyzed, right. Trauma basically is a paralysis response, and that's why it's so persistent, That's why we kind of stay there a long time once we're there. And So what I think is really unique about witchcraft and magic is it inherently is about action. It's about doing something. It is like, you can't be paralyzed and do magic. Really like, you have to do something. You have to set an intention, you've got to go get the stuff, you've got to do the practice, you've got
to act on it. Really and so my argument basically is that witchcraft and magic is specifically unique spiritually because it is so action oriented. It isn't really about past civity or accepting things as they are, which is distinct from a lot of other kind of spiritual tradition spaces, which is about acceptance, you know, whatever, whatever, all of that type of thing. We're just gonna like let the vibes be how they are. We're going to accept life
as it is. We're going to be you know, very chill. And what I like about magic for trauma is it's possible to be like, all right, everything sucks, let's make it not suck. I don't want to accept the fact that everything sucks, Like, let's change some shit. And my argument basically is that there's an empowerment in that that can help dislodge that paralysis, freeze response that a lot
of people get in trauma. Obviously, I think everyone should also metathorpy do all that normal sciencey shit, but if we are going to get engaged spiritually, my argument basically is that magic can really help people if they take it seriously.
I totally agree with that. I think, you know, I've even said before, I think a lot of shadow work is very important, you know, the practice magic absolutely and like even for myself, like I guess at one point before I started, you know, I just getting into a little bit deeper. I was doing kind of like it was so much trauma based, but I was focusing on things that the ways that I thought are certain things were kind of engraved into me. I was not agreeing
with anymore, and I wanted to change. So I was a lot of focusing on that too. So I'm assuming you very much the same.
That's important, absolutely, I think it's super important, and I just think is crucial in the community at large. And what I do observe sometimes, unfortunately, is a lot of people that say teaching this stuff or presenting themselves to be experts at magic or whatever, who their life sucks. They seem miserable, and I'm kind of like, dude, like, where's your magic in all of this? Like, how is it that you haven't healed all of this shit yet
and your life is a disaster. It does make me sometimes question people's practice, like if they're still mud after so long, because this stuff really is supposed to help people, like if you do it properly, like it really can elevate you out of some shit. So that to me is just always like a little bit interesting to observe.
Oh no, I guess that, Keith, it was all.
Well.
There's also times when I just from my experience, sometimes people do shadow work and it's like, I think you're kind of just feeding that team in now you're not really doing totally. Yeah, And I mean that's probably slippery slope with anybody. Really.
Yeah, Yeah, it's interesting.
That's cool when you when you like schedule to kind of be done for that.
Yeah, so hopefully summer twenty twenty six. So like the thing has been written like since July, it's just jumping through all the academic hoops. Like academics are very slow in terms of scheduling their stuff. Like hurting academics is kind of like hurting cats. Like it's very challenging. Like everyone is on like a very chilled out timeline. So at the moment, it's just like waiting for everyone else
to kind of read it. And then we're going to have to invite two more kind of external examiners to jump on board, and then I'll have a really fun three to four hour oral example. I will get to prove that I am not done. So that's like how it goes. That'll be doctor Sabrina the Witch Doctor. So that'll be very fun. It'll be fun. Yeah, we'll see how it goes.
And I know you got a bunch of books too, So when we get into some of that actually doing.
That, I have many books.
Yea, let's see.
I'll show you guys, just for just for fun, these kind of heavy all right, this is all my things. So there's actually one Journal missing, So I've got four journals, two Tarot Journals, one Oracle Card Journal, and then one Magic Journal. Says the Magic Journal very fun cover. But otherwise I think my most interesting books are probably my graphic novels, which are these. So this is my first one. This actually got nominated for the Best Graphic Novel in
Canada when it came out, which is which fun. So it was originally self puff. Now it's with Wiser And this is basically nice a magical philosophy type of book. So the guy who wrote the foreword is like one of the foremost environmental philosophers working right now. And basically I'm talking about witchcraft as a form of environmental knowing, Like what do we learn about the environment in the
land from witchcraft and animism and all of that. So it's like very very vibey, and it's also very much like magic in the city, like magic in an urban setting, Like what does it mean to connect with witchcraft and magic when we are living like downtown in a big city, which is pretty much where I've lived for the last I don't know, twenty years. I haven't lived out in the burbs in a really long time, so how do we do magic amongst the skyscrapers. It's kind of what
that's about. And then this is actually a part of the PhD, this graphic novels. This is like witchcraft and trauma kind of memoir type of stuff. This is specifically kind of my story and how how did I come to understand this shit? It's like three times longer than the other ones will try to show you, guys. So I did all the art and the writing and the design blah blah blah. So like, yeah, so I'm really proud of this one. So this came out this year,
thank you. And then this is like a witchy one oh one And it was actually originally signed a Penguin, but then they were pressing me off, so I bought my rights back and just signed to self pub and I have absolutely no regrets. So this is kind of like more pros like technique based how to. So my mission with this was to write a non denominational energy how the fuck to do the stuff because a lot of people would read my first book and they're like they'd be like, all right, I bought it, and now
what do I do? And so this book is kind of the answer to that. Question, and it can be used no matter what people believe, like if they're Christian, atheist, Buddhists, what they want to do magic like that's very much like energy work mechanics, pretty much as how I describe it. And then this one came out this year a few months ago. Actually it's like my most cute sea book for sure. It's called The Witch at Home, very cute.
And so this one is like magic in the mundane, and I'm basically explaining like typical stuff we do every day, like cooking, putting on our shoes, putting on moisturizer like stuff like that, and how can we understand that as as magical if we've got the right intention. So I really don't think magic has to be put on our witchy cloak and clap three times and get twenty candles. Like I love all that stuff, don't get me wrong, But like I think, like it seems basic, but I
think it's like sneakly advanced as well. So that's that. And then I've got a book of poetry which is a little bit more dark and it is more like sexual assault healing type of poems, but there is like a magical element because I did work with witchcraft to kind of move past that. And so there is poems about those rituals in here too, for anyone for whom that would be healing, which I think is a lot of women unfortunately. So that's the repertoire. And I've got
like four or five other ones planned. So we'll see.
Oh wow, too.
Many books in my brain, so we'll see what happens.
It's funny. My other favorite academic author, magician is a guy named Isaac Bonowitz. Okay, nineteen seventies. Yeah, he got his degree in magic and they're like, no, we're not doing that anymore. So it's been a long time, but it's sort of had that chasm there, but I think a lot more academics are going back to magic. Is like, you know, there's so much more stuff here that we missed the first time, calling it pseudoscience or whatever.
Totally yeah, And I think there actually is a program I think in the Netherlands. You guys know what I'm talking about where you can actually get I think a master's and a PhD in like occult studies or something. Do you guys want to.
Guy's going over there soon, So ask Matt. He's going to be uh, definitely researching that.
Okay, then exactly like the thing that you're talking about that, I can see it.
I can see it happened there.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's cool as hell, So that's happening. And there is actually an interesting book. I haven't read it yet, but it's on my shelf. It's called I'm in the Academy, which I think is kind of about this whole type of thing, like that connection between occultism meant academics. It's interesting.
Ours notoria. You know about that one. I did a whole book about spells on how to get the angels to occupy your brain so you can copy down these agent homes better.
I love that.
It's really interesting.
Yeah, it was like a real big one on memory old I think from the whole hundreds.
Even if you think about before, right, like the Quadrivium, trivium, this kind of stuff like what they used to study, or the Masonic guys, the Freemasons, like yeah, they're basically academics, they were scholars and whatever.
It just now it got kind of corrupted into this. Oh no, it's sony sites. Yeah cool.
Well then even the other way where some people don't even incorporate science into it.
Yeah, they won't even worse.
Honestly, I think academic study can always help people who are practicing magic. Like, it is interesting to me how many people are so anti academic study, and it's like whatever you believe, Like read the history book, like, read read the things, Like it's not gonna like fuck up your practice. It'll actually probably give you more interesting things to consider.
Yeah, it might actually broaden it for you, make it moreach. I fall in love with it.
Yeah, absolutely, I think there's always somebody to be gained from learning more, Like there's never something bad about that.
Honestly, I've even said, well there's a ton go ahead.
There's a ton of anthropology books out there about these native practices with a whole bunch of really interesting insights. So if you look up the ethnography of like voodoo, they've got tons and tons of books on this stuff. So it's it's an untapped resource when it comes to magic.
Yeah, like my Bookshelf over Yonder has like got a lot of that shit, And like I don't practice who or any of that stuff, but like reading about it academically I think is useful for anyone who is practicing any form of magic, like even if people have no plans to ever go down that route for themselves personally in their practice, Like it's you're right, like there is still so much to be gained from learning about like what does magic look like in different cultures? And how does that look?
Even sometimes I just real quick sometimes I even think just seeing the cross cross symbolism can even help, like you get a better understanding.
Too, absolutely yeah, because a lot of people are using similar mechanics, like not always like often.
En Yeah, yeah, that's even if you don't use the same name, it's still magic, you know, like if you study car Jung and his stuff, it's purely alchemy and magic and they call it psychotropy.
Okay, cool, you want to call it coming out good for you?
Absolutely? Absolutely yeah, that.
Would be kind of like the really the shadow work of a magician. Mm hmmm.
Exactly.
Absolutely, And I think a lot of people maybe not a lot, but like enough to be noticeable, are doing magic from that space of being unhealed or like really occupying the shadow space or whatever that is, and then that creates these unpleasant ripples for themselves and like whoever else I know, and Unfortunately, I have seen that a lot over the years, like in the larger magical occult community, like like the witch Wars, like the drama between everyone,
like it just seems to me so unnecessary, like if we're all doing that work, like, why is this happening?
Well, I think that's unfortunately, that's why you know, this is probably controversial and I don't know, Oh well, this is my opinion that could be a side effect of actually not doing the work, because unfortunately there's a lot of that. This was kind of something I kind of wanted to get into. I know you talked about it
not too long ago on your show. I don't want to get into it too much, but I do like to bring up the point kind of I think this is why you even see people losing themselves and others and why, like I think people like Listen there the same probably some of the same reasons I did loss have no control. I want to control in my life.
You know, I might have been fearful why I even got into this stuff, but at some point I'm going to have to probably work on myself and I'm if I'm worried about protesting about some the fucker I never knew. How am I fixing myself?
Mm hmm.
You know, if I'm worried about what the TV is fucking telling me to think, how am I working on myself? Mm hm? You know. And unfortunately that seems to be like almost like this growing thing of like some sort of let'll just keep it serious, like social justice warring, virtual signaling shit. Yeah, any way, I hate to say it is. I'm gonna keep it in eyes mostly just motherfuckers, completely inauthentic anyway.
Yeah, now I agree completely, and I've gotten a lot of pushback for saying similar things as I'm sure you know, Like it is interesting to me how much that mindset that you've just described is infecting at least the Witchy space.
Like I can't really speak to what that looks like and like the OTO or anything like that, because it's like not really my sphere, Like I have no idea, but in Witchy Land, where it is like a lot of women that has kind of taken over, a lot of the vibe is like this kind of such a justice war activism, and then you see like a lot of these women bullying each other. I've experienced people doing that to me, and like it is fucked up. I'm like, you guys, like, what is going on here?
This is a show that's dropping in a few weeks. What I mean? Uh oh? I think this week that I did a few weeks ago on somebody else's show where I was like, legit told two or three times that I had white privilege, and I was like, Yo,
what the fuck is going on right now? Because I didn't because I didn't agree with the OTO having meetings about George Floyd's situation, and like I'm sitting here and like I was really trying to be nice, and I'm like, Yo, I have somebody who's in front of me who does never even doesn't know anything about this organization telling me how it actually should be run. I'm like, like, how fascist is that? Actually? Like, who the fuck are you
to tell the OTO how the fuck to run? They're based on the Book of the Law, not fucking CNN. George Floyd isn't in the Book of the Law. There's no George Floyd chapter. There's nothing in there tell you to watch fucking CNN and go protest, But you're what the fuck? It was just like I was just like, what is going on right now? And it's like, Yo, this that shit is a little too much.
Man, It's a bit weird, honestly, And I think, to me it makes me concerned for not to get dark, but like for the future of democracy, because like if people are so easily believing exactly hook line and sink or whatever they're seeing by some like idiot on the news say like, have we lost all discernment? Have we lost like basic media literacy? Have we lost critical thinking skills?
Like what the hell is going on here? Is like to me, this type of thing that like you're describing, like we should not be here as a society especially and this is controversial, Like but if you look at actually what happened with the whole George Floyd thing, like it's not exactly what people are presenting it to be, and the whole BLM organization is not exactly what people are presenting it to be. It's like a huge grift.
And he died of like a drug overdose basically, and the other thing to again get too crazy, but before he passed in that manner, let's say the optics of it, there was a white guy who passed in a really similar manner, you know, with the knee and whatever.
I forget the.
Guys, I know what you're talking about. I know what you're talking about.
I'm talking about and so it's like that got no coverage. But if that did get media attention, like could the optics of and the reality of exactly how the George Ford thing went down could have been different perhaps, And no one really wants to have that conversation because it's more complicated and more new. It's just more going on than the typical like all right, just believe this shit and then you know, go forth and protest, like it's very bizarre.
And you know what, Like I what I realized, like near the end of when I was like kind of getting badgered. At one point, I was even like, sorry, I was born white and grew up in Long Island. I don't even know how much of this is getting edited. I'm really interested to see what's coming out. But like at one point it was basically I don't want to get too specific, but like people, basically her husband is
brown and she's afraid of ice. So I'm like thinking in my head, so all of this comes down to you feeling fucking powerless and scared and instead of doing the fucking work and stopping being living in fear. You're gonna make every other motherfucker around you think the way you should and scream for you. That's black magic, in my fucking opinion.
Yep. And a lot of people unfortunately are perhaps like due to lack of strength in themselves or like a lack of personal integrity. I don't know, like don't stand up to it, do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I'm also white, you know, like my dad is Fromming, and it's like I have zero shame about that, like nor will I ever. And the fact that there is this weird manipulative thing going on right now, like where people are being pressured to feel shame, to perform shame.
It's very fucked up. I really it end like soon.
But because I was told everything is political, and I was like what I was like, Yo, I said, I haven't talked about that ship really on my show in a longe fucking time, because all it does is cause fucking decisive you know, division, And I was like, you all ship on both fucking sides, I said, I think both sides fucking suck. You know, we're all getting sucked by then. But it's just like I don't know, it's just like why am I being told I have to incorporate politics into my own show?
You and like coming from the academy too, it's like the way that all this shit is being talked about, like it has its origins in academia and a lot of people don't realize that. But like this whole like critical race theory, like intersectionality, all of that stuff that comes from the academy, and like that's fine as like an academic exploration and discussing ideas and we're going to
throw some stuff around and see how it lands. But when that becomes orthodoxy out like I r L in like governmental organizations and whatever, like, people become pressured to just adopt the ideology. It becomes a new religion basically, and if you're part of the religious cult, then you get shunned, ostracized whatever it is.
Behavior When is when has politics ever not been magic?
I even said that. I was like, in my opinion, if you're if you're a magician and you're playing with politics, you're a fucking slave or I said something along that line, and like you would you know automatically if you're a magician, I ain't even fucking with that. It's pure slavery. I was like, there's enough people out there pushing hate. I'm good on that.
Yeah, yeah, the guy up there and making the actual Yeah.
Then at one point, at one point, I wanted to get real fucked up and I was gonna be like, Yo, some white motherfuckers got his neck blown off? Aren't you fucking happy right now? Like, let's keep it real. You know you got some motherfucker that you probably hated. You gotta watch him die on fucking TV. You're not good for a few weeks, like you guys just sa I'm never happy with anything. More and more and more and more, it's fucked.
Like I cried when that happened, and like I'm fucking.
Sick that that sh was re played over and over and over again.
It was fucking traumatized, right, so fucked and like the other thing with that too, Like I did a whole bunch of podcast episodes about that, and actually a few YouTube lives about that.
I noticed that you did.
I was going off. I was not stoked on how a lot of people respond to that, like being happy that he passed and all of this ship.
No, I didn't like him. I didn't like him. I didn't give a fuck about that dude, And I just don't think what happened to him. If that was real, it was even fucking cool. I honestly thought he was fucking annoying, to tell you the truth, But he doesn't deserve to die.
I don't know all this stuff, but like I had no beef with him, to be honest. But what did start making the waves in the witchy community was that apparently a few days before that happened, like apparently some witches put a hex on him, like some ex at sea witches or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, I saw that ship. I saw some shit like that, right.
And so that's part of what I was talking about on my podcast, was like I don't give a ship how much you don't like somebody like I truly don't care, Like we don't want to be hexting just because we don't like someone's politics. Like maybe I'll disagree, I don't know, but like for me, I'm just like.
What the Fuckymember? I remember what I was like, I
was like kind of just like getting into it. I had already been interested in magic and practicing, but like I sort of like kind of starting to creep like the internet now, and this is like Facebook I was looking at and I started coming across groups and I joined some of them, and all of a sudden, like again, this shows you how I was not even into politics, don't even fucking know there's an election coming up, and all of a sudden, I see people like getting together
to like fucking sway the election away from Trump, and I was like, like, what the fuck up? People? What and you know, no offense In my head, I'm like, yo, these motherfuckers actually think they're doing something like come on, like this is this you.
Imagine thing that's where you want to put your magical energy.
This is a structured tempotantrum.
It's absolutely like it's arrogant, like it's entitled, it's childish, like how old are we all right now? Do you know what I mean? Like to me, like if that's where someone is putting their magical effort, I'm like, oh, you're so fucked up and unhealed right now, like you should be directing all of that vibe back into yourself. And like, I do think this is important because there is so much assumption, at least in like WITCHI Landia that like all witchy people are let's say, left wing.
Like I got invited to be like an external reader for some new book on like feminist witchcraft or whatever by this publisher, and so like, I don't know what they thought they were signing up for when they got me to do it, because I'm like the most contrarian person in the sphere really, and so you know, like my feedback on this book was basically like this is bullshit, Like not all witches are left wing, you know, woke
activists who want a hex Trump. Like I'm sorry, but the book was arguing that, like that that's a part of witchcraft inherently to be a far left activist. Like there was not even any mention that perhaps some witches are conservative or even centrist, God forbid.
Like there was just a really good point.
Margo Adler started chiseling the uh, you know, the epitaph a long time ago, but I think feminism really did do a lot to destroy the whole wick slash whatever movement. It just sort of it kind of hit the wall after.
That, you know.
Yep. Yeah, I've got so much I could say about that, for sure, but it's it's.
Unfortunate and I'll even say there was people that I was You see, this is another thing. I really didn't even know much about politics or even certain phrases until I was like in the OTO, because like there were certain people that I knew that would kind of start bitching about certain things, like I think they did. He somehow made the Deacon roll like available for non binary people, and they were like, yo, some dude was were like, what the fuck you know? I mean so much like that.
It's just like this whole ritual is based off energy, and like, what the fuck did you just do with that?
Me?
I'm like, I really didn't even know what the fuck any of the ship meant to be totally honest with you, as I'm hearing this stuff, so I really didn't pay much mind to it. But like they were dudes that I realized due to like this stuff happening, they were extremely far right. And I still was like, Yo, you're fucking crazy too, motherfucker. You know. So I'm just gonna say no matter which way it streamed you when I
wasn't cool with it, you know. So you know, I just want to put that out of there, and people think I'm a fucking nazi because I was just tired of the liberalism. But no, I was tired of fucking either one. Actually, you know, I was tired of hearing the fucking extreme pushback from the fucking stupid shit. I was just like, oh man, this is silly. Now, what the fuck are we're talking about? This isn't magic.
Absolutely, it doesn't take barely anything to be called the Nazi these days too. You know, like you could just disagree with someone on some basic thing, you get.
Called the Nazi for not believing somebody else fucking one hundred percent and acting like them. It's like, how the fuck is this go? The Nazi.
Very aware it's ironic. It's ironic for sure.
I'll over here try to fucking just stay by myself, like and bother nobody like what the fuck man I was? I was even telling some other people. I was like, yo, like, I'm the type of like, you don't want me to start getting involved in that shit, because I'll be the motherfucker you see on TV and it called just driving through a fucking protest. You want me to get all rah rah rah, You'll fucking see if you push me that far. Let me be the cool, chill guy who
talks about magic. That's where I could do the best to help people. I'm not going to do good behind balls because I decided to play politics and just fucking went nuts. You know, I'm no good to anybody that way. Sorry. I know my strengths and I know my weaknesses. I stick to magic.
Speaking in prison.
I've actually and I've been in prison too, so that's another thing I don't want to go back either.
I've never been. I've never been. Just everyone knows, no shade. But I actually have gotten emails from family members of prisoners who are like, hey, my dad is super into witchcraft. He is it okay if he wants to know, if it's okay if he uses your book Witchbody to teach his fellow inmates about witchcraft. And I was like, that is the coolest thing ever, Like absolutely, yes, he has
my permission to do that, Like that's totally fine. And the message back was like, thank you so much, because literally every other witchy author that we've asked this to is either not replied or said no, which I find like so bizarre, Like why not, Like I see no shade, No, nothing wrong with that, Like if they want to work on their practice and have spirituality behind bars, Like, how
does that negatively impact me in any way? I just thought it was great and I've actually tarot read for someone in prison.
Yeah.
Actually, so I got a phone call and it was so I don't know how they did this. Maybe you can let me know, but I guess they smuggled somehow a cell phone.
Oh yeah.
Literally he was just calling me and like it was a normal phone call and I was just like pulling cards and it was like, oh, you can't see your kids. Wait, why can't you see your kids? It was like halfway through the reading, and he was like, oh, I'm in prison. I was like, hold on what the book?
Can not believe said? Dude paid to rent the cell phone in prison. I mean, that's cool. It's just wild's wild.
It was wild, like and it was fun and I you know, I gave him, you know, my advice and all that, like it's all cool. But I was really touched by that actually, like because he was a genuine dude, Like he wanted to better his relationship with his kids, and I have nothing bad to say about that. And here he is like trying to get a reading in prison, Like good for I will.
Say when I was in prison, I was exposed to a ton of occultism. Hmmm, just like how books. Uh there was books on like uh, there was a ton of Crawley books in there. There would be books on like different forms of ideas of magic, conspiracy books, David Ike books. You know, people into like like thinking that from like the plates and ship like that, like really any off the wall Dwight doctor Dwight York type ship. We started getting into like you know, five percent of shit,
including aliens and twusting that shit. And then you know, the Muslims had their own like you know, mathematics and all that. You'd have those types of stuff in there, you know, Wes in there. There there was Satanists in there. There was there was actually I think a few Thelamites, but I really I knew of it and even did read Crowley stuff in there. But I wasn't like fucking with them too much. I just you know, but I knew there was a people do any.
Magic in prison? Or like, how did your practice look like when you were in there?
I you know, I wasn't really practiced. I didn't start actually start doing ritualistic work. I was basically just reading everything m hmm. I just start doing that until I got out. Yeah. But yeah, there was a lot of stuff. It was really weird. Actually, like when I talk about the Council of Nine and that will say on ship that was in a book that I found I read in prison.
It was just crazy.
Yeah. Yeah, there was just a lot of a lot of occult stuff in there, and it's very uh so, like I I it's just makes sense. I guess that maybe somebody would actually, you know, call you because there's people reading that ship in prison. Some of the stuff, some stuff I do have. I have wondered though. It's like, yo, is this ship getting dropped off in here so people believe some of the silliest shit possible. Mmmm. He saw it was just like off the wall, this whole Reptilian
agundant whatever. But there's there's just something, you know, there's all sorts of wild, weird stuff in prison. It's interesting.
That is interesting. Honestly.
I remember the first time, the first time I ever even heard of Beheld the Pale Horse was in prison, and the big thing about it was that supposed he wasn't allowed in prison. So that's why, like even my bunky was like, oh, it was fucking book. I got there and he's like, we're not supposed to have this, and it was like some gang members, some high up gang member from the fucking uh to the Disciples, the
gang to Gangster Disciples. Coolest motherfucking though. He was like he was like, yo, he was like reading this shit and he was like blowing his mind. You know, he was like, I fucking knew the government was fucking us. Like it was like this revelationary book to this kid. It was so funny to watch, like you read it and like get mind blown over it. Yeah. It was just wanting to see some like hardcore gangster kid like
just like acting like himself, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, that was the first time I heard of it. It was like funny. Of course in prison, that's just interesting.
That's so interesting. Magic book club in prison you knew, not me. I did not know that, but it makes sense now.
Oh yeah, you know a lot of things too, though. People get shit sent in and then they just leave it there. That's basically how the library was at Four Takes. I mean most of that is oldes books left over from people I left books there. I donated books to them.
When I left, so apparently at least one of my books is in there somewhere.
That is awesome, that's cool. The ship nice and which do you know which one was? I don't want to ask speakaus you know, yeah, I actually don't know.
Oh, okay, like it's in my email somewhere, but honestly, I can't remember my head. Yeah, somewhere America on the other side of the wire.
Because it turned out being Nick were at the same for it. I was just in the army and he was in the jail.
But yeah, you know, the prison that I went to was Fort Dix in New Jersey, and it is an actual active army base too, So like I was literally in prison and he was on the other side of the fence and training. I was like, we realized at one point where I was like, what the fuck that he be saying? Right, that's.
Interesting too, Right, So in basic training they let you choose which church you go to, and me and a couple of the other Witchier people they were like, well, we're wicking, we got to go out in the field. So they let us go out of the field with our tarot cards on Sundays.
Did they give you tobacco? Oh? Oh wait, you weren't in prison, that's right. I'm thinking we give you tobacco.
That's cool though.
Yeah, we had people were like can we go with them? We just want to sit in the field. We don't want to go to church or anything. So we got a lot more members that way.
I love it.
That's even another thing. I think even there, they had some sort of Native American thing and I'm almost positive there was some wicked thing that allowed them to have tobacco too for their services. So that was like a way that you see like tobacco going around getting sold. H yeah, yeah no, but I'm just saying, like I think I remember it even came like the like the Wickens were even i think even acknowledged in this prison
and given like tobacco for the ritual ship. So I mean there, Yeah, there was a lot of shit going on at that place.
That's interesting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I like read a book about like prison magic.
I would I think ethnography right there, prison magic, you.
Know who probably actually has shit on that and then that to promote the guy I'm wondering, Damien Echles, I mean that guy was in prison for fucking how long? He says he was still practicing magic in there.
Hm hmmm.
So you know who Damien Nichols is, Sabrina. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it could be a controversial character, but you know whatever, I'm just saying he was in prison for a long time and supposed to sp.
Doing magic.
Yeah, if he was in prison, sometimes I question what sh it's real and what's not with this stuff anymore? But uh yeah, anything else that you would like to uh, you know, at least maybe promote or anything that you could talk about.
Oh my god, I could talk forever about whatever you guys want. But to promote I guess, yes, tarot things. I'm very good actually at doing the tarot. So if anyone does want to get a reading listening to this, you know where to find me the Internet. It's kind of my big thing. Otherwise, this might sound a bit odd, but I'm doing a lot of life coaching right now, okay,
and like interestingly, almost all of my clients are men. Actually, no, all of my life coaching clients right now are men, and so it's like life coaching with spirituality and magic stuff kind of rolled in there. So it's a lot of teaching people virtual spiritual stuff they can kind of do to get their shit on track, which has been
honestly such a fucking fun time. And like I love working with men, like so there's like I mean, business, decisive, respectful, No, they show up with an agenda, like a little itinerary of things I want to get into, Like I fucking love it. Like it's so interesting as ten years ago my clients are pretty much ninety five percent women, and
now it's like completely flipped. And I don't really know why that happened, Like I didn't change anything per se about myself or whatever, So I don't know, but it's been great, Like it's been really really fun to work with folks.
In that way. I could see from my experience from being like in the OTO or just being like around the witch Grift community or other like orders. When you start getting into like more of the ceremonial shit, you'll definitely see a much more a male uh population. And as you start getting closer to less of that and more I think towards witchcraft, much more women. So I don't know if it's the whole thing of being structured. Maybe the women don't want that and the guys are
just very much like I'm regimented. Just this this, this, this, and that's how it works.
It's it's been interesting.
I have noticed that myself not saying either be the ones right or wrong. I think you probably need a little bit both.
But you know absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's been a fun time. So it's been a lot of what I've been doing these days. And I guess you promote like my books, I've got a lot, they're on Amazon. I don't know, like at least one of them will be a good present for yourself or someone else.
Yeah, that's right. And you did all the art yourself correct, literally all of it. That is impressive too, Like there has to be time consuming.
Oh for sure. Yeah, So like it'll take me a lot longer to do a graphic novel than like a prose book. Like a prose book, I can spit out pretty quickly, but a graphic novel, like the drawing takes way longer than the writing. Yeah, incredibly laboring and so for sure. And I'll get like a little like pain in my elbow from like painting for so long. It's it's a lot, but wow, but it's fun.
Yeah, it would be definitely, I guess, like a lover of passion that stuff if you keep doing it.
Yeah, Like I've always been an artist and I can't imagine never painting again, you know. And like I used to be a commercial artist, so it's like magazine cover stuff like that, like art for other people's commercial situations, and so now it's just all illustrating my own writing. Like that's kind of more my focus these days. And
I love the blend of images and writing. And I think with something like witchcraft and magic, it does make sense to have a visual component because most of these books about magic there isn't necessarily always a visual So part of what I do with my graphic novels is to at least depict, like what does that process feel
like for me? Because if you just look at someone practicing magic, it doesn't usually look like there's anything going on, Like it looks like they're like sitting peacefully in front of a candle or something like, which is totally fine, but to basically be able to depict what that spiritual experience feels like, like going on a spiritual journey to do this or that, or a spirit contact or YadA, YadA like For me, the graphic novel opens up a
lot of possibilities in terms of communicating, like what does magic feel like experientially? At least from my perspective.
That's great. Somebody somebody a cult to suck at art like specific I.
Don't even attempt it. I don't even attempt the ship no way stick figures.
So it's nice to see what that's really on top of it.
Oh, thank you, I appreciate that.
Do you my best ever very nicely mention that because we on the Tutor's spaces we do on the Great Launch, we talk a lot about like uh, movies or books or you know, uh, drawing the Enemy what ever that does exactly this that you mentioned, Like, they'll they'll use some kind of esoteric thing.
To explain the story, and then if someone is just watching it for the story, they won't necessarily know it.
But if you know the thing, it's like obvious that they're using some kind of magical thing, and so you get it. It's a very nice hyper repertoire that you can build as well for your own practical things, because yeah, I mean ceremonial magic. That's the thing people don't understand as well, like ceremonial magic, it's not about the actual things that you're wearing in swam because that by itself doesn't matter.
Like yeah, sure i can wear some sword and whatever.
And speak stuff, but if I'm not applying the stuff with my mind and emotions and everything, then yeahspoint.
So absolutely, yeah. I think a lot of people like don't realize that if they're newer to the space, like they do think that there is just like this magic esthetic or this witchy esthetic and you just have to perform the aesthetic, like the kind of hairy potterification of craft aesthetics, and like you're good, that's all you have to do. But like you're right, like it is all mine based half the time.
And I even into that. I even fell into that myself.
So you know, yeah, I'm like speaking of art and creativity too, Like for me, the practice and the process of creating art or writing, like it's very similar in terms like to my magical practice in terms of like the energy flow and like the arc of like channeling something like touching into a particular energy current and then
just riding the wave and letting it come through. Like for me, there is a similarity there ritualistically, which I think is probably the same thing for quite a few like occulty artist type folks.
Yeah, pretty much, there we go.
Yeah, that's right.
Is not your work?
Oh cool?
I love this, Like right behind you, he's note a couple of pieces. It's getting better. Even made his own easel out of like a fucking branch.
I've like never used an easel in my life. I just paint flat.
Yeah yeah, okay, you were saying your elbow before.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's it's a wet medium that I use. It's like India ink, So if I painted, it would have Pollock type of vibes, which is not exactly what I'm going for.
And it's kind of kind of crucial for anyone trying to improve on Magic and Storm to have some kind of artistic doesn't have to be you know, painting could be, music, could be anything like just making stuff with that kind of creative part of the brain, like more right side brain.
It also helps getting into states, so it's pretty cool.
Yeah, absolutely, Even cooking or something like that, something where it need to like follow that intuitive flow. I think sports like physicality, like sports something like that, like a form of movement that can also be like or even dance. I guess that that can be creative too.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I mean you have to be creative to be good at the sport, right, Like if you're playing basketball or something, you cannot do the same shot over and over. People pick up on that, so you have to come up with new ways and you kind of have to get there, and that getting there is the same getting there when you're doing magic.
So totally it's like there's a flow state that we have to access.
Yes, yes, yeah, I totally agree that it's almost like the same thing is like for me as a ceremonial magician, it's like when I get into that flow state during the ritual, it's just going, you don't know, I can see what you're saying. It's almost like a physical meditation.
Totally. Yeah. Ye, Honestly, I think like a lot of magic e folks are very like brain dominant or like up here dominant, which is why I always like tell my students, like, do something physical that you have to like touch reality, like whether that is like painting, cooking, going to the gym, playing soccer, like I don't care, Like do something that gets you in touch with the bodies, Like the body is the vessel of magic and spirit and all of that, like as much as it is mental,
like there is that like body as instrument of magic, thing like body as sensor. And so the more embodied people are, I think, the better everything kind of tends to go.
Yeah, No, I totally agree. I think, you know, kind of taking care of your bodies should be something that more people will porate into.
And it's interesting that that's not really the case. I find a lot of people are just happy to stay in the mental and completely neglect to the physical, whether it's like eating bad, never working out like whatever.
It is very interesting and I've done that mistake myself too throughout my career, your magical career. Stopped going to the gym as much as focus and more on that. You know, I did notice a little bit more changes and myself went back to the gym and realized I
was like, wow, I actually feel better. I was left stress because like even though I'm meditating for me, even though to the gym, like I was saying before, I think it's a physical meditation to an extent totally, you know, And it's like that I could go to the gym in the morning and like leave and it's like my day would be good if I didn't go. I could
realize I'm a cranky motherfucker. Now later it's like, I, you know, I didn't get like, you know, I didn't exert all that energy through the weights instead of my.
Mouth, you know, totally, and like there is a channeling of energy aspect to them too, like like like there is like to be that. I think it's so interesting. I think a lot of people in the occult space are kind of like a bit more art se, let's say, and not everyone is super grounded in the physical and the gym is magical I think for sure.
Oh yeah, no, very I think it's al chemical for me. I believe it.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
I'll definitely after the show, if you don't mind, you send me like all the links that you have. I think you might just have a link tree or something that has all your stuff. Okay, all right, but uh yeah, thank you so much for coming on. This is really fun. I'd definitely like to get you back on and chop it up with maybe some more topics or some other specifics, but definitely had a great time having you on. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Thanks you so much, thank you for inviting me. This has been honestly a blast my snowy afternoon. You guys are all awesome friends, super fun.
Yes, well again, thank I don't I think we talked about it off, but thank chat GPT because I threw in a whole bunch of a cold podcasted there. I was like, yo, pull out the best guests and like the best topics like that these oldies shows have had, and it spits you out among other people that I already knew of. So I was like, oh, okay, all right, let's get her on.
I love it. Yeah, the same question and see if it mentions me. I want to see, like chat GPT big me up, like, let's see, it'll be funny.
You know what.
I've actually got some terrat clients recently from chat GPT recommending me too, which is very interesting.
Oh nice, wow, nice new Google. Yeah, so I can't complain that's interesting.
You know.
I wonder sometimes if that even happens when people typing your shit in there already and it starts already, you know, like that you exist.
I'm sure it happens to people finding your show too.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is interesting shit. But uh yeah, I'll definitely get all your links and include them all. Thank you again, like I said, for coming on. It was a great chat, like it'd be definitely. Can I think talk to you about some other stuff in the future real quick before we end it. Matt also let to let everybody know what is going on with you.
Yes, so again. Can find me on many socials.
That's always at Metmoor nineteen on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, Twitch, maybe some other place. There are the Gray Lodge spaces every Friday on Twitter. That's gonna be also on our website, the True Gray Lodge with the v so true dot com so the True Grade Lodge dot com and my website Cabala dot com. That's k A A B A l a h dot com. If you want any type of strategy reading, moralogy reading, machra reading, energy reading, or
just some match corporation, you can find me there. I'm gonna do those a little bit more of this same year and thinks they're going to change up next month, so enjoy while it's open there. And there's always the little apps and stuff that yeah, always updating it and improving so I feel like that.
Just make sure to go to the website. Thanks again, Nick, it was blast and stuff that you spoke to much and yeah, nice stuff.
Thank you, Matt. I appreciate you making it and Headless my man. Everybody know where they can find your stuff and remind him about these shows.
Absolutely. You can find me on Twitter and on Instagram and on YouTube. Check out the Headless Giant. I have Alchemy Mondays with Arrows I've got coming up tonight, We've got seven seven seven with me and Nick. We'll go through the Kabala of Alistair Crowley and then on Thursdays, send us your emails at Headless Giant Podcast at gmail dot com and we will read your occult slash esoteric slash paranormal stories as we go over our favorite symbols
throughout all of history. So check us out. And also on Sundays, I've got the Trialogues with Ethan Indigo and Ricardo. I've had some substitutes hopping in well. I've been on vacation, so check those out as well.
Thank you, nice, Thank you very much, and Sabrina again, thank you so much for coming on. It was an awesome chat. Definitely look forward to maybe having you on after you get this PhD, you know, hopefully you get that good Yes, yes, yes, no, no no, but I'm just saying, like I like to have you, like to hear you come back on and say you have it. You know what I'm saying. That would be great. Yes, yeah,
that's awesome. Yes, we'll definitely keep in touch. And again, thank you all, And that's the end of another recult Rejects. Until the next one. Everybody be well later.