You see something's going to happen.
What's going to happen? What help? Welcome back to the Occult Rejects Today we're joined by Marcello Kroll and Adam Smith, the creative team behind Initiates Oracle, a forthcoming forty card oracle deck with one hundred and twenty eight page guidebook from Weiser Books, scheduled for release on May fourth, twenty twenty six. Marcella Kroll is an artist, mystic, spiritual teacher, and deck creator whose work bridges divination, contemporary art, and
lived spiritual practice. Her site describes more than twenty five years of work as a psychic medium, a cult practitioner, and spiritual counselor, and she's known for decks and books including Sacred Symbols, Oracle, The Dreamer's Taro, Healing, the Liminal, and more. Adam Smith is the illustrator behind Initiates Oracle. He brings three decades of a cult practice in more than fifteen years of tattoo artistry to the project, and
he's also the creator of the Hidden Veil Taro. What makes this deck especially interesting is that the Initiates Oracle is presented as an occult, hermetic and Egyptian inspired work. In both Marcella's site and the publishers describe it as being born out of a journey to Egypt, where the author and illustrator took part in the initiations of the Sphinx.
The deck is framed not just as a divination tool, but as a guide to transformation, something meant to translate deep esoteric symbols into a practice that can actually be used in everyday life by both newer seekers and seasoned practitioners. That gives us a lot to dig into today, symbolism, initiation, ritual, artistic vision, occult philosophy, and what it means to make
a deck that is both beautiful and spiritually functional. And that's why I'm excited for this conversation because Initiates Oracle sounds like they're trying to do something bigger than just give people another deck. It sounds like it's trying to open a threshold between image and ritual, symbol and experience, ancient,
current and modern practitioner. So today we're going to get into the making of the deck, the initiatory ideas behind it, the collaboration between writer and illustrator, and what both of our guests believe these symbols can still do to a person in the present day. Now, before I introduce the rest of the panel and the guest, I do have an announcement I'd like to make. We do have the website a Cult Research Institute dot org. If you're interested
in reading a lot, that site is for you. And we also have T shirts available on the website as well. There's two different styles that you can choose from. And that's enough out of me, and let me introduce the rest of the panel. Robbie, please, sir, let everybody know what's up with you.
Yeah, doom well, doom well. Nick, thanks for having me on. This is the a topic of interest and it's good to meet you both, Adam and Marcella and I am our Marx artist and illustrator and I'm big into doing symbolic research, color theory, all down the roads of you know, these kind of occult esoteric topics and I'm excited to
see where we can go. If anybody wants to check out my stuff, you can go to my link tree, which is link tree r Marx and then I'll pull up all my website, my Patreon, my podcast, the metamindcast and everything else. So but yeah, thanks for having me on, Nick, and yeah.
Of course, please thank you for joining me. Robbie, appreciate it whenever you can make it. And Adam sure, please let everybody know a little bit about you or anything you want to promote, and this and that.
Well, I was I live in Columbia, South Carolina. I've been tattooing for over fifteen years now. Uh yeah, you have to excuse me.
I'm sorry. I was living and Sabrina actually because she showed up.
You're good, You're good, but uh yeah, I'm not. I'm not really used to stepping out into the spotlight and everything.
You know what.
I still get nervous doing this, so it's quite over.
Yeah, but yeah, that's that's really about it.
I'm sure we'll get into it a little bit more as we go through moreau. Let everybody know what is open to you.
My name is Marcello Kroll. I currently live in Tucson, but I am an artist and a occult practitioner. I make decks, I write books, I consult on different projects. It's pretty awesome. I get to do this for a living. I feel like I get to be the person that I wish was there for me when I was growing up. But you know, yeah, just really exciting to call outborate with Adam as a fellow magician. We got to travel to Egypt together and do a lot of ritual rights
in the temples. We did our initiations of the things together, and we got paired up to be kind of I don't know, Adam, what would you call it.
We were like the I'd say, like I've always kind of referred to it as like the pillars of silence. Yes, about the Isis ritual.
Yeah, we led the call. We led the guard to Fela, to Isis's temple at like I don't know, I think it was like three o'clock in the morning, four o'clock in the morning, in darkness, in silence, you know, to be gatekeepers for that particular temple ritual. And yeah, it's pretty profound in that way. So yeah, anyway, I just I'm always in awe that I get to do this work and meet different people from all walks of life who get to carry their heart in this path forward.
So awesome. Well, thank you for making it as well. And Sabrina, what is going on?
How are you always like five a time. It's light. I'm sorry like being on time. Also, i'ds so pumped to be here because Marcella and I've known each other on the internet for like a million years and we've never like shared like live moving on the internet. So like, I'm so excited to hear and to hear about what you guys are working on and everything. I feel like people this probably already know me. I've got five books out, two podcasts, whatever, Google it, Rina Scott, whatever.
Thank you. Yeah. When I remember, I think even sore on your profile. No, when I was looking at her Instagram, I think it even mentioned that she was followed by you, So I was like, oh, Sabrina might actually find this interesting, she might come on this one. Thank you for making it. Yeah yeah, yeah, So I guess I do have a couple of questions, kind of like you know, once for the Goldies, for people just discovering the Initiates oracle, how do each of you describe the deck in your own words?
Maybe Adam, if you want to go first.
Well, what I would say is that the deck itself really, uh really takes the practitioner on the same journey that we were on a lot of the artwork in it was stuff that was downloaded during the process, and even coming back from the trip, it was just like an ongoing surge of like imagery and symbols and stuff going on. And so we're really kind of just hoping that we're able to share all that with anybody that picks up this deck, you know, and makes them feel part of the journey as well.
So the at times like this happens to me, well, not the like my shit's art, but you know, I'll come up with ideas for like thumbnails and shit or whatever logos. Is it Like times like I guess you were saying, like almost like downloads or it's like you'll just get this idea that just pops into your head out of nowhere and you have to like try to remember it, you know what I'm saying.
Yeah, sometimes I'll do a little voice notes. Sometimes I'll do rough sketchings, and especially like you wake up in three am in the middle of the night and just have this idea and have to get it out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that is cool as shit, man, That's awesome. That's sometimes what I think. I'm a big David Lynch fan, and I think sometimes that's what he was talking about, like when you have an idea and you lose it, you almost just want to kill yourself and die. Like I understand, it's just like the fuck I'm not going to get that back because I didn't jot it down or whatever. But yeah, it's cool. Yeah, what about you, Marcella. I, well, it's interesting.
So this is going to be my fifth deck, and typically with decks, I have three Oracle decks and one Tarot deck that I've made. I've done all the artwork and the ill illustrations for those decks coming together on
this project. It was a seed that was planted there, and we had been talking about just the different things that are out there because Adam has made his own self published deck prior to this, and we wanted something that felt like, yes, anyone can access it, but for the person who wants to take things beyond just the like, oh do they like me kind of readings, but someone that can actually use it in their magical practice, but also for their own growth as a magician, because you know,
there's so much of the same stuff out there over and over and over again, and even I did my first retreat this past February, and I used this deck to outline my retreat. So it's not just divination in the sense of I need to ask a question about my life. It's putting into practice, like what things we could be working on in layers and applying them, you know to maybe everyday situations, but also through ritual. So yeah, it just felt very natural. Adam and I clicked from
the go because we showed up. You know, I don't know how many people were there, like twenty eight or something. I don't know, definitely a number of people. And I mean he's like, oh good, another tattooed face person and I'm like, great, yes, finally, But we really just it just kept growing the seed of the idea to the point and for me creatively, that's how creative ideas come in. They kind of roll in and float by, and if I don't grab them, kind of like what you're saying,
I kind of forget about it. But here's the thing. I think if an idea, especially a creative one, wants to come through, it kind of haunts you a little bit, popping up around you like whack the mole until you go okay, okay, okay, I can't ignore this anymore. And the beauty of doing this deck together because Adam such
a prolific artist and I love his work. In that way, I was able to nerd out on the booklet the writing right, Whereas when I've done my other decks, I've made them more kind of keywords, jumping off points, like things that you're supposed to use your own brain because a lot of people want it told to them, and I'm like, no, I'm not teaching you to read like me. I'm not teaching you to read like mimic someone else. I want you to use these things as a jumping
off point. So they've been very booklets for me in the past have been very streamlined, very like I said, keywords or suggestions, whereas this deck we really get to look at the symbolism, particularly the magical symbolism, and dive deeper into maybe some stories around some of the symbolism that you haven't heard before.
That was awesome, Thank you you kind of answered. I had another question. I was going to say, what made you choose Adam, but kind of answered to anythink.
Like it was a kindred connection, like kind of right off the bat, we kept getting paired up, like not intentionally, but like like the facilitators, just like when we would do certain rituals, like we would pair up in groups or like and are just it was easy for us to like collaborate collaborations.
Hardah, Yeah, one thing I did want to ask, also, why the word initiate? What does initiation mean to each of you? Beyond the cliche version of the term.
M Adam, I was hoping you were going to go first on that one. H. Initiate can mean to me a bunch of different things. Uh, give initiates, the initiations that you would go forth through with organizations and groups you have, that you would go through on more astral spiritual levels. And yeah, so it's it's almost as if shedding skin, you know, almost like this this rebirth, after you've gone through it to where you're kind of I
don't know, it's it's very real hard to explain. That's how it is a lot with even creating the images that I do withdrawing, it's always real hard to kind of go into the process of it. But like it's it's all up there mentally, you know, it's just hard forming it into words.
But yeah, thank you, thank you.
Yeah, I think of it as kind of there's a next level of intension with that because we're not just trying. It's like, oh, we're not just doing this weekend thing. I'm going to pull out my deck or weekend magic. There's nothing wrong with that stuff. I love kitchen witchery,
I love easy access magic. But also there's something to be said about being more ceremonial, intentional, knowing that you're diving into a process that might take you on a journey and it might be three days, it might be three months, you don't know, And I want people to understand that it's like the Abramelum, you know, rituals, like it's something that it's you don't know, but you're committing regardless, and there's a sense of respect and seriousness to them,
you know, because I think a lot of stuff is sold to us, you know, particularly with you know, the popularity of magic and witchcraft. You know, on a more commercial level, it's like how quick and fast can I do this? How convenient? Magic initiations not convenient. It's uncomfortable, you know, and it's euphoric, but it's you don't get
one without the other. And I think the process with this too is to kind of say like this isn't just like, oh my gosh, I'm going to bring this to you know, Bev's baby shower deck, Like I mean, that's fine if you want to, but like it's not a lighthearted thing, like you're not going to get those
quick fixed answers. Sometimes it might help you if you have your own clarity, it might bring you that, But I just think there's layers and there's more than again, like it's right of passage at least for me anyway, That's the way I relate to it.
When I was in the OTO, there was somebody that I did like all my initiations with, and I think like after it was like after the first the second one, after like the initiation was over and everybody's like hanging
out in the temple. I remember even though my friend was like, you know, I guess like saying like, well, you know, why do because there's a certain amount of time you had to wait between them, and he was like, you know, I guess bitching or just not bitching, but was like, why can't we just keep on going and you know doing well, like weh blah blah blah, And they were like you kind of like need to like kind of process or kind of understand what the hell
you just went through do Like they're like you the whole point, you know, and it is a kind of a journey, I guess in a sense.
Yeah, integration is a huge part. We can't just keep going, going going. You never retain what you've just processed, or you can throw yourself into psychosis. Like people don't understand that part of it. And you know, Adam, you've done initiations right in different orders and things.
Yeah, yeah, done a few in the OTO as well.
Oh nice, okay, all right cool?
Yeah yeah yeah, and yeah even with pathwork in itself, with Kabbala, you go through a whole series of initiations. So yeah, I'm both here in the regular world and the astral.
If anything I would like for me, I even look back now, it's like I wish I would have. I guess, like you can't redo them. I mean you could always go, like if I did my first, I could always go to somebody who's and watch them do their first. I
never did that. I regret that now because during like again like even processing what's going on, I was like when you're in that initiation for me, I'm so focused about like what's coming next, though, like what's in front of me or what's going on, that I never even really took the time to look around the lodge and look at all the shit that's even set up. Why is that there? Why is this there? Why is that
all of a sudden? Right, I'm sure there's a reason for it, but it's just like I never even you know, I don't know. I look back and I'm like, damn, I wish I would have like paid attention a little bit more before I left. But no, I definitely understand the whole initiatory thing is a very not something to be rushed, in my opinion, Did I, Robbie or Sabrina, did you have anything before? I keep going, Well, I'll remember, I swear I'll remember so well.
I was going to say, in regard to creating these decks, right, I have I created a like a mystic kind of a cult playing card deck, and uh spent you know a good amount of time kind of you you have the the concept kind of coming into you and kind
of you know, congealing and coming into itself. And then it's the process of taking this this idea and turning it into reality, and then you have to deal with, you know, the reproduction as far as the printing process and like all the manufacturing and getting it in so that you can actually get it out into the world
and get that idea kind of moving around. Like it's a as far as process in in the work of creating the idea, do you think it's like is it in the ethos or is it something that you formulate? How do you kind of what what kind of inspiration kind of pushes you?
Hmm, I think there's a few things. What do you think, Adam.
Well, I was gonna say, as far as creating the images with drawing, I'm strictly digital, like I do all my stuff with pro Create. I used to do on physical paper, but I just wasted so much much material always felt guilty about it. So a lot of times I just sit down and I just start sketching, and I don't even know where the finished product is going
to go. And then sometimes even like getting far out there with all that line work done and all the shading and then starting to add the colors, stuff just doesn't go very well, and then I have to go back and redesign it. So the way that I create it. It's it's probably not the best of ways, you know, because I would think sitting there and kind of laying out the idea first would probably be the best concept. But I always like just going along for the journey, you know.
Yeah, yeah, and it is really a journey. I mean when you when you're an dissipating with these muse energies, you kind of just let it, like you're kind of just a watching the process as it is.
It is. It's almost the same as like when you're doing tattoos and you're like taking it from the stencil and putting it on the flesh and then you watch it come to life on the body.
You know.
It's just this really cool process that unfolds.
So yeah, yeah, now go ahead, Sabrina, what were you going to say?
I was kind of gonna askthing similar more around creative process kind of from start to end, especially a collaborative deck, like as a writer and artist myself, like I'm kind of like, oh my god, I don't know if I could collab with another artist, I think my brain would explode. But I just looked up the deck looks stunning, and so I would love to hear about that creation process from like original idea to how did you sort out what each of the cards is going to be the
structure of it? And then the sketching process, Like I'm curious, did the art come first? Did the writing come first? Like I just want to hear that whole process. It's so different for everyone. I would love to hear about that.
Yeah, thank you for asking. It's a great thing to noodle on. I like, because I am notorious for just doing everything myself. Maybe I don't work well with other people like collaboratively or it's very rare, you know, it takes a very special you know connection to be able to do that or in just artistically creatively and being in the same like speed, you know, because I get impatient or I get in his zone or I'm not on his own, and so there's that difference, particularly for me.
It was the process kind of took a while, but like not not forever. I think the publishing process has taken a lot longer. But initially Adam had a lot of the imagery first, but he would send me things and I'm really good with war like coming up with names for things. I think, like that's one of my like One of my jokes is like I just want to name makeup colors like nail polish, you know, like I like coming up with names and names for people.
So I started coming up with the list of titles, you know, like card titles, right, But then the images would lend to those titles themselves too the more we got, So it was kind of this like back and forth that went on, but we did get a lot of the wach McCall it the I got a lot of the imagery from Adam before I began my full on writing because I wanted to include not just hey, this is what this means, but I wanted to include the
origin of the different imagery and connect on that. The colors, the symbol is, like everything is just you know, part of the process. So I did say it was pretty easy working with Adam and I've recently worked on collaborations that didn't go anywhere because we couldn't get on the same page. Where there was more fluidity with Adam and I. But I also think it's because we were on that initiation path at the same time, so we both had an understanding of the feel and the energy, like even
though we live far away from each other. Right, Adam lives in South Carolina. I was living in La Now I live in Tucson, Arizona the last two years, so you know, doing things also at a distance, getting on FaceTime, getting on phone, you know, it was just kind of easier to do it that way.
So yeah, I could see that too. It's the whole process of like getting together and collaborating is like, Wellpito, if you had to jump on zoom, it's a lot easier than possibly getting in your car deciding where you're going to go. I could even see all that just making it a little bit easier too, depending on what type of person you want. Sometimes I for any reason to just tell myself and that to do something.
So I think it requires a lot of trust in each other though too. I mean that's the thing collaborating, You're trusting the whole process, you know, with each other. And I think the only time, the times, the reason why I've worked so hard for so long on my own was because I didn't have a lot of trust or faith that other people were going to follow through, or because there was no proven track record of it. And I'm like, well, if it's going to get done,
it's going to get done. I self published for nine years, you know as well, So it's like switching into a gear of having to collaborate with publishers. That's also a
learning curve experience and such a different process. I mean, Sabrina, you make so many beautiful things, and I've been doing this for so long as well, you know, Like I think you understand that, Like you're very prolific, right, So, like having to get things on board and having to trust someone else to kind of come in it can be daunting for sure.
Sometimes they don't get it as well, like the powers that be by which I mean like publishers or institutions, sometimes they just don't get it. So like there are some of those clubs that I've had where I was just like all right, bye, I think you probably know what I'm talking about. But quick question for reasons you do have so many other decks out, Like for those decks that you did solo, did the art also come first?
Uh?
Okay? So Sacred Symbols, which is like my the thing that kind of started at all came to me. I mean I was in the middle of a mental health crisis, but it was twenty twelve and I was like living in milwauke On in a like eighteen acres of land
in New Mexico. I had run away and I was having a mental breakdown, and I wrote the names down first, and then the sketches and then putting it together right And still even then, I I did all of the editing and the graphic design on an iPhone three, Like I didn't have skills for that, you know, and I just you know, it's like things just started to the more I learned, the more I learned how to make it happen, and but also trusting in my you know,
my like connection to my whatever guidance and all that stuff, like, hey, like, if this is supposed to happen, it's just going to keep happening. And if it's not, take it away. That's how I deal with a lot of stuff right now, you know, is even with the collaborations falling apart, I'm like, if this is something my ancestors would have flipped this table,
take it away. Trust And I trust that. I trust that, and you know, so it's a it's a wild ride, I mean, and just no one taught me how to do this, and I think you have that understanding as well, like and putting out zines and books and being asked to consult on things and getting kind of like a bomb deal because I didn't know better. You know, that's
been an interesting journey. But now you know, you learn, You learn, you learn to ask for more, you learn to take better care of the work that you're stewarding into into being in the physical.
Yeah. Absolutely, And publishing is so slow. But how long did it take you guys from beginning to meet.
Its good so slow?
From the publishing being slow, Like was it like a year you guys were doing this project to the other two years? How long did it take you guys?
We think, Adam, it took us. Like we finished, we came back. When did we come back? We went to Egypt in December of twenty twenty two.
Like I remember you posting those pictures.
Yeah, and we finished the writing, like I finished the writing in the summer of twenty twenty four. But that's because when I came back from Egypt, I wrote a book. I wrote a book when I came back, like my Healing the Liminal Book. I wrote that upon arriving back, and then I was like, okay, I can work on this once that happens. But then I moved. So twenty twenty four the summer, we finished everything. But it's now,
you know, twenty twenty it's not it's it's yeah. It took probably like about a year or so to complete it for our end. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Oh, let's see. M I'm just looking at the comment.
Oh yeah, did you see when somebody has to see examples of the work.
Yes, that's what I'm Yeah.
Reason, I was like, I think she just caughte that comment. That's why. It's okay, It's okay, I got it. Can I go find images real quick?
I know. Well, I pulled a card actually for today from our back from this, and I pulled leadership, Yeah, which I'm really excited about. I mean, what I love about this card. It's Isis, right or Osset is her Egyptian name. A lot of people think of Isis and they think of the story of her, you know, retrieving these dismembered parts of her husband of Osiris of Ozier. But one of my favorite stories about Isis is the
way she was able to, you know, be cunning. And she's the leadership card because she was able to trick Raw the sun god. She created a serpent to bite him, and she's like, you know, I'll help you, but you know, tell me your secret name. And that is how she became, you know, her leadership, her ability to connect with magic, all of those things. You know, there's just so many
stories that are hidden within, you know. And that was one of the things too with us on our trip, learning the Nataru from the inside out, which is, you know, the Egyptian pantheon, and learning their true names. It's it's really quite It's been a real journey to work with each card too, as I got the imagery and writing about them and seeing what sparked intuitively for me, not just the okay, this is the you know, this is the emerald tablet, this is this It's like, no, what
feelings got evoked? And that was really Adam's artwork really evokes a lot of feelings.
Yes, one thing I did want to ask, what point did you know that Dex's cool language would be harmonic and Egyptian inspired rather than broadly occult. I mean, was it because right away because of the retreat kind or whatever you guys want to Yeah.
Yeah, I think because of the path that we traveled and we went with twenty two Teachings, which is a cult hermetic school in Los Angele based out of Los Angeles, and Academy of Oracle Arts, which are based out of Nevada City. But knowing specifically the group we were going with and those practices, it just we knew that that would be the theme and the direction. So I'm like, I'm just like, this is the back. I also just
am really excited. They gave us a pretty awesome you don't really see this, but the booklet is full color nice, which is rare and publishing they don't always do that. So just really excited about the way it turned out. Like feeling it in your hands also is another trippy thing when you make something to feel it tangibly. Yeah, like the the texture.
I absolutely love the gold foil that they did on their as well. Yeah, really goes well with the Matt Black.
Mine's a little worn because I've been been using this as like the demo deck I got a while back when they sent us like, hey check it out, so.
And who and who was that? That's from Wiser? Yes, Yeah, they actually they sent me some decks like a month or two ago from people I had on and they had to the gold foil around them. Okay, and the cards are the very good quality I thought, so I'm assuming yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
They do a good job. This is my first time working with them. I really enjoyed working with them. They're you know, they're a smaller publisher, which I don't think a lot of people know, but they've been around for a really long time. I also love that they're like New England based. I mean, they remind me of childhood, like going to like the little Wickens stores when I was growing up, because there wasn't really there was only a few like magic Spots in the nineties, you know,
like early nineties. You're going into some really interesting places. But they Yeah, so it's been really nice working with them because it feels more hands on nice.
That's awesome. They seem really nice with me dealing with them, like after the show email and be like, oh, just let you know I had my solo crawl on if you want to send me a free day.
They share, they shared the things, so maybe the you know, I can definitely nice.
No, I'm going to remind them though I've done that to him before. By the way, I just found out this person published through wives and they're like, yeah, we'll send you the book.
Yeah oh man.
Yeah yeah, I'm so cheesy.
No, I love it. I love it your that's your aries.
Right, You're like out like you sent me the books every time I have them on Can I get them a little one whatever? Yeah?
Absolutely?
Uh what was there any was there any images or cult symbols that was like already like you knew that this was going to have to be used when you had this idea.
Adam, uh not really like free planned. Just as the cards started like being created and laying out, then certain symbols just kind of seemed like it went with that particular card.
Yeah.
I mean there's definitely certain symbols that I was excited to see in form that I didn't anticipate. I was trying to find, like.
Where is it.
It's like the lion eating the sun. There's just but there's definitely here. It is fortitude. Yeah. I was excited to see that because I wasn't I guess I wasn't expecting it, but that, and you know, I love like there's just such a nod to some of these like their their own characters. You know, we have ta Hooti we have thought to Hoodi here with like his two
forms with the emerald tablet, you know. Yeah, and then there's like classic things right like we have with Vanishing, right, we start to see more of the classic kind of idea of her meticism and Kabbala and you know, just Adam's influence with that. But certain images to take me right back to some of the rituals like this literally the ritual card with hathor but with the systrum because when we were there, Yeah, we did a system ritual almost Zara, Yeah.
I tried to make it at Hathorpe for a while. Were you do.
You have a picture of it your you have your own system that you know?
I started? I never never feel yeah, but I was, yeah, I was big. Yeah, she has that in a mirror she's known for, which I find interesting because that's basically sight and sound, you know, just suck it, you know, into it. That deep but very interesting. Yeah, I'm a big fan of Hathel actually.
Yeah, Dendaro was incredible also just because of the layers of the temple, Like there's parts where you go underground and that's where I think was it on ancient aliens?
Do you remember, Adam, there's there's like this tunnel under the temple, so you have to crawl down and you end up underground and there's you know, hieroglyphics and stuff, but there is this depiction of a battery where there you know what I'm talking about, and there's these giant figures holding it up and then like smaller people yes, and there's such a like they're like who made this? You know? I think the thing that was so fascinating to me was you could touch things, most things you
could touch and obviously being respectful, obviously being mindful. I feel like because there was such an understanding of the reverence of these places, we were able to go into places privately a lot which doesn't normally happen, and you know, we were able to do things that most people don't
get to do. And I think it was simply because we came with we you know, working with intention, respect and offerings not just offerings of hey, let's pay you money, but like offerings of prayers, offerings of respect, offerings of ourselves as vessels. And that felt really important.
So that's awesome, that's really cool, that's very wild experience.
It was, I mean I don't think I fully integrated. It took me maybe like a year and a half maybe to fully understand what happened.
Did you uh, did you touch anything?
Touch anything?
Oh?
Yeah, yeah, I mean.
I'm kidding, Yeah, I'm like I was crawling on my hands, and I mean there was a part where a lot of stuff you can't be if you're claustrophobic, it's not good. Okay, yeah, not going to be for you. I mean it can be pretty intense, But there's also this part of me that's like, yeah, well, when am I ever going to get to do this? So just get over it now.
When you mentioned that it's like kind of claustrophobic, was that You're sorry? Like I just might have some questions on this? Just made me think of something with the Sacred Sacred architecture I've been covering lately. Was it uh was it like kind of like was that like something that was made after the fact to get to where you were going? Or was that like an original thing? Like was it made to where you actually have had
to be crawling to get what you got? Was that the kind of an original passage?
You think it was both? It was both to be honest. In some places it was both like there were there's like I remember, do you remember the crypt we went into Adam when we had to go down the spiral staircase.
Yes, that was like fifty down below.
Down, But like that was created, man made right to get in there, Like that wasn't something that existed, but and we all each wanted a time like laid in this dead physician's crypt. But yeah, that was created to get in there, but it didn't exist prior. But certain things like getting up to I don't know, like the king getting up to the King's chamber and the Great Pyramid. Yeah,
it's very narrow. It's not meant. People weren't meant to climb up in there, right, but they've constructed kind of like these rickety they're not even like there there's supposed to be handrails, but they're just so shaky and you're hunched over, you know, just you can't look up, you can't look down, you're going to get stuff in your eyes. But we had some wild time, like we did the l We were doing the lb RP a lot of places, but like doing the lb r P at the top of the pyramid.
It you mar you do the LBRP yourself too, Yes, then we do. That's pretty cool really. Yeah. Even in the oto, there wasn't that all the women did these.
Oh yeah, no, I mean it was pretty standard the first Like we we were doing it in many places, and I think that there are certain places where it felt really amplified.
That's cool, you.
Know, but to be to be at the very top of the pyramid and then climb all the way down and then climb on hands and knees to get to the I don't even know what you call it, subterranean portion of the Great ParaMed underworld literally going through the duot like. Yeah, And but my whole thing with that was I wanted to put offerings down at the base at the you know, in the pyramid, so you come out through like you crawl, you go through, and then
you come out into an open, more open area. That may have been intentional.
Yeah. See the reason why I asked is when I was covering this stuff recently we're recording it. There are when you start going from especially in the dark too, it's actually wild. There's so many things that like going from a small area and then to a bigger area, you'll see that kind of happen. I forgot it might have been a Karnak or too or something like that,
certain certain other Egyptian things. I've even noticed it in but that when you repeatedly do that, I don't know if they knew then, but it starts to actually make you focus in a certain part of your brain and you certain nerves start kicking in. So I wonder is that all done on purpose? Like again, is this a whole and an initiatory thing? Going through all that through your body?
All the mystery schools had those where you would be confined and then it would open in the cabin, flashing lights, all kinds of sensory you know, and you are you are affecting the senses for the purpose of, you know, rising the self.
Absolutely, I mean, and every place had some element of that. I even think us going in the middle of the
night affected our senses in that way. When we went to Karnak, we went at again, it was like three o'clock, four o'clock in the morning, and I remember walking through and having the wildest soul retrieval experience, like walking up like through there's like different archways, and I swear every time we went through the archway like some things would come back, and then we ended up in the time like in the room with sec Met I think Adam, it was you, me and two other people because we
were going four at a time in the dark like to go like make offerings, and it was it was very sensory, so quiet but so loud internally, you know, yeah, just it's it's and even and then even being on the nile. We were on the nile for four days sailing, so that was this whole other sensory experience. There's so many different things as well.
Do you even said the pillars and the way you walk through them? Uh, even cover that too, that depending on how they're cut. I think if they're cut concave like around, it starts to create reverberational of them too. Yes, So like like that's wild that you even said that you feel something every time you're passing them. Well you do.
Oh no, I was just gonna say. The hieroglyphics to the way they're carved. They're not carved exactly at the same depth in every place because they calculated the sun and depending on the where the sun was at if it's too deep or not deep enough, the sun would blurt it out. Like so if you're going around in certain spaces, you'll notice that the the hieroglyphics are not carved at the same depth because of the local based on the location, right.
And the type of mineral, you know, mineral that they're using in the different places to conduct different types of energies that you that you feel as you move through. You know, these very in that you see that worldwide. As far as phenomenon with these builders ancient builder structures, Yeah, yeah.
I mean there were so many things. I mean, we walked down was it like was it the oh gosh, it's like pathway of the Sphinx. But there's this road that goes from the Temple of Moot to Luxor and basically all of the museums all over the world that have sphinxes and their collection basically taken them from this place. It's kind of like okay, like but at one point there was all sphinxes down the whole way, and they actually did a New Year's celebration a few years ago
where they traveled that road and recorded it. But we did that road in silence at sunset, and it was the most intense thing because then the prayer, the call to prayer started as well, because it's a Muslim country, so there would be these moments where you're walking and then the call to prayer would start and they're in silence and everything's reverberating, and you're around these like you know, things just feel different there.
Wow. Yeah, I covered all that like a couple of weeks ago. Man, I'm so jealous you went through that shit.
You got to go.
I was even showing like the pathway with all the sphinx. That is awesome. You got to walk through the I thought that shit looked so fucking cool when I was looking at it.
On one you gotta go.
And Egyptians on my Egypt on my book and listen, Yeah, what.
Each of you guys want to go and like do this whole thing. It's like it's clearly it's a big undertaking. It's like you're traveling somewhere. It takes forever, you're gonna be there for a while. It's a completely different environment. Obviously there's a spiritual benefit to it, it's still kind of a big undertaking. So I'm curious that you guys could both speak to what was the inspiration in terms of wanting to go, why then, and all of that kind of stuff that led up to that decision to go.
Adam, I mean, yeah, I just kind of try to pay attention to what crosses my path. Egypt had been on my radar for a few years prior to that, and then all of a sudden dropped like, Hey, we're going to take a trip to Egypt, if anybody wants to go, So I instantly messaged her and started talking to her about it. It was a It's definitely like I didn't really know what to expect out of it because I had not met any single person on that trip,
and person very spoke to anybody. Flew eighteen hours to get there, So it was definitely a lot of with me overcoming a lot of my fears and anxieties and stuff like that, and then being able to lock up with a wonderful group and so.
Yeah, yeah, and it's like, you know, we can romanticize the trip all day long, but you know, there's also there's things that come with that, you know, type of travel and making sure you're traveling with the right people as well. You know, I've been obsessed with Egypt since I was a little girl, like hammels were my favorite animal. When I was little, everybody thought I was WEIRDO. I used to make little Egyptian scenes in shoe boxes, like living in Rhode Island, you know where? What? Like why
would I know about this? You know? And always had a connection. My first tattoo is Isis. When I was eighteen, I asked her to be my mother. And there's just a lot of there's always been a strong, strong poll
and connection. And I taught with twenty two Teachings, which is Na High School, as a guest teacher, multiple times, and I had done readings out of there, and I'd always had it on my list as a bucket list trip, but I honestly didn't think I would get there until maybe if I ever got there, maybe my sixties or seventies. And then, you know, circumstance just happened to align. My grandmother had passed, and I just my life as kind of person that I felt very tethered to, like wasn't
here anymore. And then this that same weak Naha had put out that she was kind of curating this trip, and I just felt like I gotta go do this. I gotta do it now. You know, sometimes you deal with loss and you deal with it in different ways. You're like, you know what, like life's long and short, so let's figure it out. And it just aligned and you know, and she was like, do you want to teach on this trip as well? It's like teach in Egypt? Absolutely, like because we all got to bring our own kind
of offerings. I was able to teach my timeline jumping meditation on the Nile twice, which was insane, but you don't say no to opportunities like that, and so it was really, Yeah, it was something that I'm when I when we were flying in, I absolutely felt like a sense of coming home in a way.
Yeah.
Can I ask what was the hardest part about the trip for both of you?
I would say like just the beginning of it, because as soon as I got there, everybody just kind of felt right together.
You know.
I was thinking earlier about you were talking about the different rituals and stuff. Do you remember the very first one was at Osarius's temple down below, and the two people that were wandering around got stuck in the room with us and just jumped right into the ritual and just started participating with us. It was a mother and daughter. It was so beautiful. But yeah, mine was because I was going to be traveling alone. I was going to be joining a group of people I've never met in
my whole life. It was a lot of money to get there. I was going to be there for fourteen days. I was like, you know what if you get there and all of a sudden you absolutely hate everybody that you're like, or not hate, but just not click with them, you know. And I'm like four fourteen days and not being able to get in my car and just drive home because I'm done with it. It's a big thing to kind of overcome, you know.
I think it was fourteen days.
Adam, Well, I think the trip itself was like, wasn't there like fourteen? The journey was fourteen, but then the flight like a cole days. Yeah, but yeah, it was a wonderful experience and I'm grateful that I had an opportunity to go. Also, Marcella prepped us prior by doing a past life Egyptian meditation, which was really really insightful and kind of made it where you kind of flick you to saying like as soon as you landed there, you felt like you were supposed to be there, you know.
Yeah, we did a lot of prep work and I think that also helped. You know, we met with our one of our Egyptian tour guides, Machmu Kuder, who's amazing, who's a scholar, he teaches many classes, but he did a hieroglyphics class with us all, you know, a few months prior online and he was like our main tour guide and it was his boats that we were on as well. We also did a Netaru class with isis injury from twenty two. I'm sorry, Academy of Oracle Arts.
I think the challenging thing for me because at that time too was I had actually I had to get on beta blockers because I'm never like, I have immense anxiety and a lot of people don't realize that I'm also autistic. I have a lot of kind of things. But I was like, I got to overcome, like get over a lot of this stuff because this trip is big than my shit, essentially, and so there's a lot
of preparation involved. Actually the physical preparation prior. I actually worked with a trainer too, just because at that time it was like the best shape I was ever in my life, like getting prepped because I knew I didn't want to miss anything, you know, so the prep was kind of grueling. Being there at times for me energetically was a challenge. In certain places, there's a lot of aggressive selling. People are constantly trying to you know, be like give give you stuff, like make you. It can
be a little bit daunting. I and that can be very overstimulating and frustrating.
Like people trying to put stuff in your hands already and ask.
Oh, and then they're like, you owe me this money they charge you for toilet like literally for everything. You know, they're like, give me money you give I'll give you a toilet paper. You know. We actually had an experience Adam to remember this and the one market we like were allowed to go on our own for a little bit, but we're supposed to go together and we had gone there was like this girl I was with and then you know, Adam was with us, but then she was
taken off all over the place. My biggest issue sometimes is just other people, right, So like she took off and left, and like I bought a couple of things from this vendor and then I walked back and Adam and I walked back, but like we're not supposed to leave each other. This guy came running out at me and started yelling at me, saying I didn't pay him fully, and I know, damn well I did, and he was trying, and he was trying, and he was trying to be scary and as a woman, and you know, like in
that country and like not knowing the language. I barely I know a few words, but that was it. Fortunately, one of our other guides he came out from behind a pole and he was like starts yelling at him, and then the guy just started going, oh, oh, forgive me, madam, please forgive me, Please forgive me. And I was like, you're forgiven. It's cool, Like it's good, we're good. I paid you go and he started backing away and then he like turned around and then he turned around again
and it was like, madam, please forgive me. So I was like, Khalid, what did you say to him? He goes, I told him you were a witch and you're going to curse him. I was like, oh god, but I love that.
Yeah.
It was like it was it was pretty intense, and I was like, yeah, okay, I'm a witch.
Yeah you know like uh, but you know, so it can be daunting on you if you have a lot of you know, you got to be with people who are strong. You got to be with people meaning mentally, emotionally you can stand up for yourself. It's you know, there's there's those aspects where it can be grueling. Also Cairo for me was hard to be and a lot of the time, uh because you know, everyone.
Like they're burning trash, they're smoking cigarettes, There's cars, trucks, animals, people everywhere. You're just like I had a migraine, you know, at like one point that took me out for a full day and it was the only time I missed anything. But they were going to a museum and I was like, it's fine, I don't I just I need to be able to get to the sites. I'll miss the museum.
But you know, and you gotta be careful with what you're consuming, making sure you're taking like you know, the right enzymes and things like that, and Kate, you know, not brushing your teeth with the water like you know, like things like that that you have to be mindful of. Also just be respectful, you know. I didn't find it hard to be respectful, like you know, I covered my head and I you know, you covered my shoulders, my knees like things like that. They're not anti like tattoos
or anything like that, but it's just modesty. And there are some places obviously where it's more touristy and there's
all kinds, but like just be respectful. Like would you want someone coming in your house being loud and obnoxious and going this isn't vegan, Like I get it, Like these are things that are like you know, like they would prepare a lot of times there's like, you know, this kind of understanding of like, hey, we can do vegetarian, but we don't have this special stuff for you, like we have this and you acclimate you you go with you know, like you're you know, I just think you're
in someone else's house. You're in a different country. I think you need to be more.
Open to when in Rome.
Yeah, like you don't have to do everything they do. But you know, I just thought it was interesting because some people how their expectations and specialness they tried to take it with them everywhere and I and it just I don't know, I'm like, we're all humaning having this experience like this isn't your show, Like it's not. You're not the main character right now. You're literally like in another country for ritual, Like I.
Honestly like a trip like that, Like it is all of that practical kind of logistical stuff that would be like my biggest kind of worry, Like I've got so many allergies, Like I'm like because I've got allergies like nuts, I'm allergic to this, I'm allergric to that. Like my stem is so delicate. So it's like if I did for water by accident, like I'm going to be the one that's gonna up for sure, even if everyone else
is fine. So how does everyone kind of deal with like all of that kind of logistical biology aspect because it's like, like you said, it's like some stuff you just can't get or there's certain things like the standards are maybe different, the norms are different, but we all like our bodies are acclimatized, let's say, like living in the West, Like how do you kind of cope with them?
I will say it depends on who you go with as well, Like we had a really good guide and group, like we were really supported and taken care of and if we had questions we could ask. They did everything they could to meet certain accommodations, especially for people who had say autoimmune and different things. But there are some things that you just can't predict, you know. But but the you know, for the most part, everyone is really like you know, was able to advocate for what they needed.
But also it wasn't hard to because we had such a good you know, people holding the container for us.
That's awesome. Yeah, was that their first retreat, like the folks who organized it, like their first one to Egypt?
No, Well, Academy of Oracal Arts does it twice a year, they do trips. It was twenty two teachings first trip. Okay, Yeah, and mock mood is he's been doing this for a few decades, like a couple decades, so he's very they people. Yeah, they got it down. I think that's why we were able to also get into certain places with the way we were able to Like they let us like incense in a temple that hadn't had sincel it in two hundred years.
Yeah, yeah, right, go back, do another one.
I mean, I would love to go back, but it's money, you know, Like it's.
I knew somebody was doing like some sort of Egyptian retreat where they were going to all these places, and when I looked at the coast of it, I was like, fucking ches.
I actually don't even know how much it costs. I imagine it's a.
Lot for what we did and what was included. It wasn't a lot in comparison, because oh yeah, I mean, I'm pretty sure they're going back. I know that twenty two is going back in twenty twenty seven. But from my just my take of what I what I spent, I think it was like twelve hundred for my round trip for my flight, and then the trip itself was probably I think it was like eight grand, and then a little bit more. I think it ended up being
about twelve hundred dollars or twelve, like twelve thousand. But your transportations included. You don't have to worry about that your inner transportation throughout, because we're going by boat, we're going by bus. We were even taking interior flights to a couple of places that were optional. You know, most of our meals were included. Obviously if you drink stuff
like that, like that extra stuff was not included. But your basic meals were included, and someone taking care of all the logistics and getting you checked in and all that stuff. Like they even had someone meet us at the airport when we arrived and walk us through and get our visas and pass like through customs, Like it was like we just walked through. So to me, that kind of it ended up being it was about two and a half weeks total travel and all of so that that's to me was worth it.
Yeah, you know, yeah, sure I went to Italy for like two weeks. It was almost tang grand so I mean going out.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, there's and there are parts that are really like I don't know, like someone mentioned in the chat about uh Agatha Christie you know, and on the you know, on the Nile, and you know we got to stay there in Elephantine Island, and I mean you just can't. You can't, like I don't know, like that kind of experience it's with me forever.
Yeah, And it's probably all the stuff that you've been reading about and kind of putting all your kind of wandering in two and then kind of the fruit it shouldn't have actually had.
Losing experience is beautiful glitched out.
I got it. Yeah, it was incredible, I think, but I definitely could see it being hard, if harder if there's other things to consider, just because you know, you know, if again dietary, autoimmune or other things, you know, you have to take extra precautions. But I would feel like okay with them, Like I didn't like if anything went wrong, like there were people that they knew what to do.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Also I'd like to add they made sure that through certain parts of Egypt we had police escorts and there was an orang guard with us at all times, so they made sure that our safety was took care of, you know. And the places we stayed too, were like very very upscale places. So I think Morgan Freeman stayed in one of the places Prince Charles stayed in. Use Yeah, yeah, so yeah, it was it was. It was stuff that you probably couldn't set up if you were to make this trip on your own, you know.
So that's awesome. Please escorts sound.
It was cool and pretty nothing like their police is nothing like our police. It was like a truck in front of you with a guy standing there with a machine gun, you know, so a lot of Yeah, it was quite quite intimidating.
Yeah, I'm so disappointed you didn't put that on Instagram. That's what I want to see.
I'm in Arizona, now I can. I can post all the eight CA's you want.
Joking, kind of not joking. I think that's a cool aspect of it that I had no idea about that. It's so interesting to see like that extra detail just make so much more like real. And then that taught me between like all right, we got some cops on either side of us about the fuck people up. If they bug us, all right, we're gonna go like light some incense and like super you know what I mean. I kind of love that combination.
What are these moments where you're like, okay, one of the temple guards walks up and the sun is coming up. We've done our ritual, and I was like in full at felae at isis Is Temple, I like got dressed up because I knew. I was like, this is my this is my mother, this is my thing, you know. And this guy comes walking up, he's got to ak strapped. He's like you look really cool. Like I was like, thank you, Old Egypt, Old Egypt. And equal like this.
Yeah.
But yeah, so it's very like, you know, you're like, we where am I? Yeah, so there's definitely this appreciation, for sure of getting the opportunity to do that and then to make something physical out of it. I'm I'm I feel very fortunate too, you know. Oh that's funny typical female behavior from William dubs Welsh. Thank you, William.
I don't know anyway, Yeah, it is a it was a good time and I feel very fortunate this, you know, and then to also have a really good collaborator like with Adam, because it is so rare.
I didn't want to ask you maybe just a few more questions a little bit about the deck before we wrap it up.
Actually, I've got another question before we switched to the So you said it's a Muslim country. So did you guys encounter any like Egyptians who were more interested in kind of the ancient Egyptian spirituality or or they that you met like more kind of Muslim oriented, or like what was their kind of relationship that something that you were exposed to it like with let's say type of spiritual work that you guys were there to do.
I mean, there's definitely a love and a respect for the history of the ancient Egyptian culture by the Egyptian people. And there are a lot of people that are really knowledgeable about their history and there's more of this. There is a big preservation element in the community. We met a lot of people who were doing restoration and more
from a educational perspective. They you know, and I just I really liked the the the way that it was more they there is just a different It wasn't just like, oh, this is just a tourist thing that there were capitalizing on. There's a genuine love and appreciation for the archival aspects of it. As far as there's also a big Coptic Christian community there, so like there's a few different things
going on. Yeah, there's like a few different things. So it's not just all Muslim like as far as religious kind of takes on things there, there's quite a few different.
The Coptics are quite persecuted though they.
They are, but there's also and then also the Amazigs. You know, people don't realize a lot of people with the Amazig community. They think they're justin Morocco or you know, Atlas Mountains. But the Amazigs also lived in Egypt at one point and were pushed out.
I schould have a Coptic church and has to fall away from me. I was kind of surprised.
Yeah, there's a Coptic church right in Cairo. I think that was the first stop that everyone went like through, like check out the Coptic church, you know. Mm hmm. So yeah, I mean I do feel like it is. The majority is a Muslim, but there is an interest in the you know, more of the ancient religion there. Just it's also a lot of capitalism there too.
What that. Yeah, it's like it's like doing it still. You might have to maybe turn off, you might and put it back on more so maybe it sounds.
Like okay, well I have an electronic issues sometimes too weird. Yeah, I'm like electric electricity thing with with spirits and up. So we'll see. Yeah, it did sound like it like repeated it back to me. It's like someone's trolling me. You have a chip here?
Yeah, what was gonna start with you, Adam, I'm gonna ask this question for both of you. Is there one card of that deck that speaks to you the most?
Mm hm, Well, I'm sorry, I'm having a lot of really bad audio on my part, Like it's real choppy and high pitch that's coming through. So I apologize for like not interacting and stuff. One of the cards that I really like is I forgot to bring my deck, but I do have the original drawings right here that I can shut. So one of my favorite is the polarity card.
I'm not sure if you can see that.
And then also I am a fan of how the grounded card came out. Which inspiration behind that is the middle Pillar ritual.
Yeah, I love that ritual. Did you have a favorite?
I love the offering card. Oh yeah, this one makes me really happy.
Also, we were talking earlier about like little hidden things and there. If you kind of look at where the jewels are placed, it's where the spheres are on the tree of life. So there's a lot of those like hidden in the deck as well.
And I just like the principle of the offering too, is like a lot of times people think offering means something physical, you know, and sometimes when you show up as the offering, allowing yourself to be the vessel like that, that's one of the highest kind of offerings you can share with the world around you. So there's just this really beautiful I just think this like elevation in this understanding of what offering is and not just being takers in the world like that.
Thank you.
Yeah.
What what do you hope someone becomes after living with the deck for a year?
M hope they become I think just I think they become more conscious of things outside of themselves and their relationship. You know, how everything is kind of dancing with each other and it's not. Again, it's not like we live such a world that everyone's so self obsessed. And I think while I think yes, individual like being an individual and knowing who you are is important, but how you, you know, function within the world around you is also important.
And also having an awareness that other more than two things can exist at the same time and be right, you know, just having a deeper connection and reverence for themselves but in the world around them.
I like that. I think that's a huge part of magic actually is learning how your outside situation stimulates you really or how you let it you know, or you're you know, I don't know not to get into it, but it's just like, you know, you have all these stimulations around you, and everybody's going to have a different
opinion about it. You know, it's almost like you kind of chose whatever program or whatever you looked at or whatever you heard or whatever you smelled is going to make you feel a certain way that's different to somebody else. It's kind of like you take it on a pre program that yourself. So yeah, I think that's really Yeah, that's really important to learn and start the control.
What about you, Adam, I'm having difficulty with my sound at the moment. Yes, so I wasn't really able to catch most of that question. It's coming in kind of like a speeded up version of Chipmunks.
Oh, it's happening on your side now?
Yeah. Yeah, So unfortunately I'm gonna probably sit that one out because I can't really hear. Yeah, I apologize.
No, that's great. All right, then I have one uh, Sabrina, do you have anything you want to ask? I have one more question left. Okay, So I guess for you, Marcel, what do you think is the most underst what do you think is most misunderstood today about a cult practice and symbolic work?
Mmm, that it's like demonic, like I mean everything, everyone's like everything's demonic or that that's like it's bad. I don't know, Like I get very upset when people talk
about Lucifer being bad. I just like I think there's there's so many misconceptions based on satanic panic and you know, you know, all of that, Like there's just and I lived in La for so long, Like there's just so much stuff like fed through media, like of I mean, even with witches, with with diviners, with seers, with oracles, they'll call any of that. It's it's gone through this lens of like performance. And I think occultism is more than performance. I also think have to be as serious
like everybody. You know, Like some people get crusty and serious about occultism, and I'm like, watch family guy, like loosen up a little bit, do something, you know, like yeah, yeah, have fun with it, but be you know, obviously have reverence. You know, we're not making fun of it, but we're you know, you got to lighten up a little bit. I think I think sometimes the world people get very on their high horse about what's wrong and what's right.
And I just think that that's the problem with a lot of things in occult ism, magic, all of it.
Really, I agree, that's awesome. Yeah, I think I don't know if you've seen me post it, but sometimes I'll every once in a while just put a post on says it's not all dicks and demons, Yes, and it shows the thing. Yeah no, but it's totally true. Certain even you know podcasting, just keep it real. You know in the conspiracy world where I used to kind of start it, and it's very uh, it's very rough, you know. I tried, I tried to hope to educate them over there,
but it was just like everything satanic and everything's dick symbols. Yeah.
Well, I think that's the thing. You just have to keep showing up and showing them that it's not because telling people it isn't most people don't listen. You just have to be an example.
The people accusing us of that. Man's doing it again. Wow, the people who accuse us of that are the ones thinking about the demons and dix more than the fucking magicians.
Well oh yes, exactly. I'm like, what's your fix on it?
Right?
But thank you very much. That was really that was a fun, fun interview. Even the chipmunks that was even fun too. Thank you for both coming on, especially Adam I knew you were nervous, you know, and you're not used to doing this, so I appreciate you coming on, and yeah, I like to be able to get the artist on that of course, of course before we wrap it up. Yeah, of course, before we wrap it up and let you guys plug your stuff again, I'm gonna
let Sabrina and Robbie you know, plug themselves. So, Sabrina, what is up? Let everybody know where they can find your stuff again, please, friends.
So my YouTube is Sabrina Scott no m. Everything else you can find me under Sabrina M.
Scott.
So for anyone who doesn't know me, I've been pressing witchcraft for like twenty five years, same with Taro. I do this shit professionally, and I babbled too much on the internet. Got two podcasts, The Secrets of a Witch podcast and the Heal and Harm Show Nick has been on It's a good time. So if you're interested in real shit, interesting conversations, depth of practice, feel free to check out my stuff. I've got four journals out, five books now, one of which has like been loitering behind
me here. So yeah, I don't know, that's my that's my shtick. Thanks so much for inviting me, Like I always love coming on and so fun to hang out with you guys.
Thank you for making it, Sabrina Robbie March the storyteller himself. What is going on, sir?
Yeah, yeah, this was great, Thanks for having me and it's good to meet tell you guys. As far as my stuff, you can go to my link tree which is link tree r M A r X and that'll pull up everything. And yeah, it was great Ton, thanks.
Nan of course, of course, thank you. And I don't know, Adam if you can hear me, but if you want, you can promote yourself.
Well, you can find me on Instagram. My user name is Adam baum L thirteen And yeah I always comment back and reply back to messages and stuff, so yeah, what's that.
Thank you very much for coming on, So I really really appreciate it, and please thank you.
Yeah, thanks for having us, Thank you for having us. It was so good to see you all. What a surprise, Sace to see you, Sabrina treatd And yeah, my my website, my Instagram it's Marcelo Croll dot com or at Marcelo Corol on Instagram. The Initiates Oracle is coming out May fourth. It's up for pre order now. Adam and I will both be flying to LA to do a deck signing at the Philosophical Research Society on May ninth, which is
really exciting. And then on May sixteenth and Tucson, I will be doing an Initiates deck signing at Nexus Occult Bookstore and Audity shop here in town, which is also Yeah, just a cool spot. If you are in the Tucson area, say hi and yeah, all my other stuff you can find like on my website or in my beacons link on my Instagram profile.
Awesome, that's great, Good for you. Well again, thank you both, and thank you Sabrina and Robbie for making it. And thank you everybody in the chat. That's what's up. That's why I go alive. And until the next one, everybody be well later.
Fine, thanks