You see, something's going to happen?
What? What's going to happen?
What?
Help? Welcome to the Occult Rejects.
This episode, we got a very special guest, somebody I happened to come across organically on mute on Instagram. I was slipping through and I happened to see a real or a story that I thought was rather kind of weird and funny. So I went and followed in and I was like, Oh, she's a witch as well. So I had to check out her account and she had a lot of things that piqued my interest. She's got books, and she's into magic, and she's into shadow work and I just found out she's into chaos magic too, so
even better. So I want to introduce it. Mandy, Mandy, what is going on? How are you?
And please let everybody know what your deal is.
Hi.
I'm Mandy. Thank you so much for having me Nick, It's like such an honor. I'm super excited to be here. My name is Mandy m I'm an author, and yeah, I like magic. I'm a psychology nerd, so I like, you know, psychology magic things nice.
Nice though.
I kind of got that from you as well, from your account, So that was another thing that interested me.
Nice.
So I guess, you know, normally for every guest that I get on that is into the occult. I know it's kind of like it's repetitive, but I do like to ask them all at the beginning, like what was it that?
How did you end up getting into this stuff?
Man? It's so weird. I feel like, well, I mean, first of all, I think, just to like rewind a little bit, I think all humans in general are meant to be have a spiritual dimension of life, and we live in like a really fucking weird point in time where that is kind of like shit on a little bit. But I feel like, you know, just naturally, as kids, you know, were drawn towards spiritual things, witchy things, making, you know, doing things that are symbolic of other things.
And so ever, since I was a little kid, I was really attracted to that sort of stuff, into like the witchy end of things. And I dabbled a little bit when I was a teenager, but I at that time, like the only kind of frame of reference I had was like Wika, and I was like, this is definitely not for me. I'm like not a rules based person. I'm not a person who like, if I don't vibe with something, if I don't fuck with something, I'm not
going to do it. So then you just end up thinking, well, I'm bad at this and moving on with your life. And then as I got older, I kind of got into When I was going to school getting my psychology degree, I was really interested in like anthropology, like spirituality and other cultures and things like that, which kind of led me to a place of where I am now, which is very much I look at like psychology and spirituality is kind of like two sides of the same and
different ways to interpret life. And I kind of ended up making my own mish mash of you know whatever, and here I am.
That's awesome.
Uh So, like when uh, I did notice one thing on your channel, and I think it's kind of like when you focus on too a lot? Is uh you mentioned shadow work earlier, like you have like you know, it goes healing for hot messes. Yeah, so like did you kind of like focus on like you know, I guess you know, people in the witchcraft or the eco community actually like getting their heads straight and working on themselves.
Yeah. So, I mean for me personally, practicing like is very much in my own practice, very much about trying to get my mental health right. So my personal history is,
you know, I was a teenage run away. I got into a lot of shit, and self destruction was like pretty much my passion, and so I ended up going through a lot of issues with mental health and with really just like being my own uh you know, big op, right, And so I kind of ended up in a place where I ended up getting a degree in psychology just in like an attempt to figure out more about myself. And then it kind of led to synthesizing that with spirituality in order to just get my mind right. So
I don't do deity work or anything like that. I wouldn't say I'm full psychological model. I think there's a bit of the spirit model there as well, but I will say that for me, it's very much about just trying to not lose my shit, like not go insane.
And so I think that that's why a lot of people that kind of identifies more like misfit style witches end up in my sphere because I believe we can lead with our messiness, right, like if we all just accept who we are kind of start from there instead of trying to outrun it, then we'll be ahead.
I like it. I like it.
I even think doing all that is part of the great work or that's part of like magic anyway, that's my opinion.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Now, like what kind of like when it comes to your like daily practice, just for the listeners to get an idea. That's something I've been trying to ask other people too well, Like what would be like a typical daily I guess daily which which the stuff you do? Like do you have stuff like that? You know what I'm saying, like meditation or anything like that.
Yeah. Yeah, So I feel like my my practice is very not dazzling or instagram kind of aesthetic, but I think a lot of people that are deep in it kind of get to that space. So for me, it's a lot about empowerment and understanding, like if you set an intention, try to like really lead with that. I love doing like energy kind of stuff, energy work, energetics, try and like sort of go through life with that
as a bit of a focus. Really understanding that the energy that I have is going to be the energy that I put out in the world and also what I received back. But for me, in terms of like spells, rituals, that sort of stuff like energy work and then baths off. Like I'm obsessed with bath magic.
I noticed that. Yeah.
Fuck, it just kills two birds with one stone. It's just so easy. You can, like, you can do protection stuff in there, you can do glamour stuff in there. You can do just like general you know, reflection, shadow work type stuff there. So for me, I'm just and it's the only time when my kids aren't gonna fucking bug me. So I'm like, it's just like beautiful for that.
That's funny. You get away from the kids at the same time, that's awesome. Well at least like you know that. Yeah, like you said, they will leave you alone while you're in there.
Yeah, yeah, which it's it's like hard to get you know, it's hard to run kids sometimes, but if you're like I'm meditating, they don't give a shot.
Okay, Yeah I noticed, Yeah, I noticed.
I think I had posted something about bath magic and candle magic, because you're you're in the candle magic as well.
Yeah. I do bath magic. I do candle magic. I like doing like some written stuff. I do a lot of work with like narrative, like personal narrative because you know, because I kind of vibe with like the whole chaos magic perspective. I think the stories we tell ourselves really become our reality. And I have lived a different reality
than I have now. Like if you could go back ten years and be like you're gonna write a whole bunch of books and you're gonna actually be on podcasts and things like that, I would have been like, shut up, no, there's no fucking way. And so I like to do a lot of that kind of stuff as well, like just like journaling type stuff, but like deep deep diving into like the shadow stuff and the narrative, right, like what reality am I living? What am I speaking? Into existence?
Not to start like putting you on the spots, just I want to the listeners to get an idea.
Just like what it entails for you. I can even go on for myself.
Like for me, I never really did I guess bath magic, but whenever I would do a ritual, I would.
Always do a goy, what are those things cool?
I take a bath? A ritual bath, I guess I And I would sometimes like include incense or so to believe it or not, Sometimes it sounds crazy. I would get cheese cloth and make some sort of like kind of like sachet out of stuff and then like hang it like around the thing and kind of let the hot water, almost making a tea bag really, And sometimes I would do that with the water. Sometimes I would include crystals or candles, you know, when I would just kind of like sit there and kind of meditate like
on like is this what I want to do? Like my intention is the reasons why I'm doing this? What is it like for you when you go when you happen to do your bath magic?
Pretty much the same as everything you just said there, Like it's like setting the whole place up. I think the vibe of the space is really important because if you're looking at it as like a how do you say, like a transformational vessel, like going in as one way and then coming out as another, you have to kind of set up sacred space. So for me, music super important, Like if there's music that will get my energy into
a certain place. I really like cybient music because then kind of like chill, but it's also like a little bit you know, you can feel it in your body. Using I do like a lot of basalt mixtures and
like herbalism with that sort of stuff I love. I actually at one point there's an account called Silly Witch Herbals and that's me because I was going to start like a bath thing and then I looked into the like logistics of it and I was like, I don't know about this, but I really like making basalt mixtures using different rbs that are you have correspondences with whatever it is I'm trying to achieve. And then also mirror work.
I think mirror work is really important, so which uh, you know, you feel silly doing it, but it can be really transformational for self esteem, which is something I struggled with for a really long time. So I like, I love doing mirror work. Then having a.
Bath what does if you don't want me to ask you, I've never heard of the mirror work before.
So there's a few different ways to do mirror work for me. Sometimes it's just like a dialogue with the mirror. But often, like for example, if you struggle with self self esteem or lack of self confidence, which like really plagued my life for a lot of my life and is why I was so self destructive even looking in the mirror to get dressed in the morning is like you kind of look away, like you're just like, I
don't want to. So it's what it is is really kind of forming a relationship with yourself by spending time gazing at yourself, giving your self affirmations or different sort of words. You can do like dance kind of stuff, but I try and get to a place of trance with it before doing bath rituals because then it helps anger that stuff in a little better.
That is really cool.
Yeah, and you feel stupid doing it at first, but the more you do it, the more that energy bleeds out into your like regular everyday life, Like low self esteem was my biggest life problem, like until I kind of started doing that work. And it's actually it's crazy to me how fast it can shift things if you really are dedicated with it.
It's funny how you're like, it may sound silly. It probably took me like two months to finally do a ritual when I was like, all right, I'm going to do it, but it's just like, am I really going to stand up and start saying all this ship and making this circle?
You know, you're like, wow, am I really gonna do this? One day I was like fuck it, let's do it. Yeah.
Well it's kind of like I feel like we have this like level of embarrassment.
Yeah, like my whole block was gonna see me, even though I was inside my house.
Yeah, so then you're like embarrassed and ashamed when it's like, bitch, it's just you, like you get out of your own head for five.
Yeah.
My cat don't care as long as I feed it empty a little box. Like you know, you don't give a fuck when I'm doing either.
Yeah, You're like doing your your rituals and there's spider in the corners like you're doing a good job.
Yeah yeah, but yeah, I know that's so funny how like, uh, I think that happens to a lot of us.
Uh, I don't know, like feeling silly and.
Then it'll hold you back from doing something that actually can really help you, Like a.
Really good baby step to deprogramming in that way is do the fucking read nobody's gonna see you.
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.
Now when you mentioned candle magic too, I know for me, if I would do candle magic, sometimes I would get even like a color that was like appropriate for whatever I was trying to work with or I would like throw sigils on there and like oils or you did all that too, and like herbs and shit.
Yeah. I gotta be careful with candle magic though, because I'm kind of like a fire hazard. I've got like a scorching case of ADHD. So if I put herbs and shit, I have to put it in the base. I usually do a base of salt and herbs and then oils and stuff on the candle with the sigel, But then I have to put it like a big base just in case it falls over, because it wouldn't be unheard of with me.
Have you used oils in your bath?
Yes? Yeah, well usually when I do basalts, you mix the oils and stuff in there, mix in and do the whole thing.
Yeah. It used to use a pink Kimlain. Yeah.
One thing I will tell you I was stupid enough to do it to myself and are really bad. There was parts of my body I did not know what burn. Don't put cinnamon oil in the end.
Of the water.
No, yeah, I use I use that for Friday because I was like, oh you know it clothes with venus and love.
Oh my god.
Yeah, it was whoa there you go.
There was no loving for me that day.
I'll tell you that one refreshing in the worst way.
Oh yeah, I remember telling somebody else that I was like, just so it doesn't happen to you.
I don't, I don't know. I just didn't think about it, like I guess, I don't know.
Yeah, all right, so yeah you did the candles, uh, the mirror stuff in the meditating.
I'm trying to remember everything that you had said.
I mean, it kind of depends on what you're doing, right, Yeah, Some like full moons are really good for I call them like bathing in reflection rituals where you set yourself up and then you kind of just think it because we often are always going to the next thing, and I think it's really important sometime to take stock of like where you're at, you've been, how you got there, and if you're chasing the same if you really want the same things you're chasing, right, we often don't stop
and take like inventory. So that's a type of bath that I do that would be different than say a shadow work bath, which might be it's still very reflective, but like with an intended kind of focal point or purpose. And then if you're doing that versus say like a protection bath or like a glamour bath. Those are going to look a lot different, and there's different things you can use. Like for example, I actually have like I had.
I don't think I have it up anymore, but I had two bath magic courses that I did because I'm literally so obsessed with this stuff. But if you wanted to use the bath for scrying, if you use like I may, if you make a milk mixture with like powdered milk, oils, herbs, it will leave like a film on the water that you can use for divination or scrying. So there's you can do literally anything in the bath. It's like wild.
Nice, Oh yeah, would you do? Uh?
I guess like if you do a candle magic and stuff sometimes like would you do you ever tie stuff to like elements of planetary stuff or are you not like into that that type?
Yeah? Actually I have Koshi chimes up here. It's like a sound healing thing and they're in uh, they're in the four elements. So there's so many different things you can do with the elements. I do find For me, usually what I'm I'm kind of needing is the more grounding energy like that that earth energy. I feel like there's too much. I get too emotional, so I don't usually fuck with water too much. But uh, but definitely if I'm trying to do something with like creativity, I'll
work with air. So yeah.
Nice.
Yeah, So I guess like now for you on candle magic, if you were I guess working with the elemental, would that decide what calor candle you're gonna use?
Well, I guess it would depend. I try and like stack my spells and ritual It'll be like use this color, this herb, this element, this archetype is something. So like I try and like get as much potency as I can by stacking those different elements because I do my spells intuitively. So it's like, if I'm going for this, you know, what are the different themes and elements that
I can add to it? And that's like something that I think, again, we naturally do since we're kids, right, like if we're hoping to have something, even if we're you know, you're twelve years old and you're hoping for the boy you like to like you back, you know, making a little older like little you know, there's these weird things that we kind of intuitively do and we don't really think of as magic until you get older and then you fuck with magic and you're like, oh, that's what I was doing.
Yeah, right, and that's too far from the same thing. Yeah, you have an altar? Do you use an ultra space you?
I have my dresser, which OK, yeah, oh.
I know so many I know so many women use that, though I don't think that's but.
It's like mine is oh my god, it's just covered in it's finny because my husband's dressers right beside mine, and he's like a neat freaking so it's like mine is this like crazy, and then it's it's like so nice.
Just look at it, like oh my god.
Yeah, he's like, but yeah, that's like my altar. But I wouldn't say I do a ton of work at that altar unless it's like very basic. I'm lucky someone made me a little clay figuring of me holding like a crystal mushroom, and I use that for like self love work because it's like a little mean soul like put herbs and like things on it.
Nice.
Yeah, yeah, because uh, yeah, there's something I was going to ask. I guess you can kind of set it yourself, like I know for me, like I've I've mentioned before to other people, and I do, uh, I try to get others to see, you know, I guess other people who do it to say it themselves.
Some people don't think I was like.
Extra with the shit, but like it would be common sometimes for people, depending I guess on how in depth they want the ritual to be, Like they could use a candle, then they could also use herbs for something than the crystal. See, I would gray, I would bring all that stuff. I would have like herbs or an incense. I would match what I'm trying to do and have the crystal that kind of goes along with what I'm
trying to do. Maybe a sigil as well, if I was getting into like a little bit of chaos magic in.
The Yes, good is a big thing for you. Sorry, sigil is a big thing for you.
Yeah, yeah, Because I also like doing a lot of like artistic based magic and so actually I ran a membership last year and one of the one of the cool things we did that I loved is I ran a session on hemispheric painting, so basically painting with your non dominant creating something with your non dominant hand, and we made it into a like we sigilized it, and so then we went over with our dominant hand to make the unconscious conscious. It was a very cool session
that I loved. But there's so many, so many interesting ways that you can work with with with sigils.
Well, in my experience, I've heard of people using their un dominant hand a lot occultism and magic.
Actually, yeah, yeah, it's it's I think it's it's just even just as a symbolic representation. It's really cool, and it does engage different parts of your brain.
So that's exactly why I've heard it suggested, Yes, that it engage at different points.
Yeah, that's why. I also think it's important to speak aloud your intentions. Speak aloud while you're doing your spells. Speak aloud, yeah, your intention before you do something, because your brain processes things like if you're thinking things, if you're doing things, if you're saying things and processing hearing the things. It's all different parts of your brain working together. And because I think the brain is kind of a magical tool in a way, why not, you know, make the best of it.
I agree, are so well kind of get into a little bit of the chaos magic, which is why I brought up I guess the sigils. Wow, what would you how would you describe chaos.
Magic for you? What is it?
Like?
What is chaos magic?
Well, I mean, for me, it's the fact that it's very much fixated and focused around my mental state, around my beliefs, and around for me personally. Something that's really important is is the fact that, how do you describe it trying on different belief systems at different periods of time. So for me, I'm like, I'm hard pressed to say I am one thing or do one thing. Like it's kind of a moving target. And I really like that chaos magic actually encourages that sort of thinking and that
sort of working. So for me, it's kind of like a non rules based magical approach that doesn't make me fit in a box and do the same ritual five hundred times expecting it to work when it just doesn't fucking work anymore, so you can like move on to something different. So it's I think for me, it's just the fact that it's flexible, it doesn't require a lot
of tools, and it's so so much about me. The practitioner me the person, right, and you know, looking at spheres of influence and spheres of control like that's really like the most immediate thing to me.
So nice, all right, Yeah, I chaos magic. It's kind of popular. I was a little bit into it, kind of with the for the scisual work, you know, but like I would even think, like I don't know if you know this. I used to be in the oto,
the Ordo Templar Orientus. I was in there for six years, and uh, yeah, I do understand, Like I guess, like in that order, if they were ever to do their own rituals, yeah, there would probably be like there'll be certain like the less A banishing ritual, the pentagram, maybe the hexagram or the star Ruby, like those things will be done there.
But if they were like.
Any other time, if the members were like hanging out or doing something or maybe even other classes, they'll reference like.
Other things to use.
And like I guess in a sense, like I guess what I'm getting at is that even in that order, you're very able to like pretty much do like or pull from wherever you wanted, and they weren't like you can't do that, Like you know what I'm saying there was somebody else there doing the same thing.
Probably that you could talk to, you know. So yes, I do kind of like that idea. I guess with chaos magic.
That it, uh you really could just like pull from anywhere, you know, and it makes sense or like if like for me, you know, I'll even try to like make sure it matches.
The same attributes in a sense. But yeah, yeah, I do.
Yeah, And it's important because I think every single person I don't know, I have like such a like full body fuck no to like organization and rules, which is probably just an internal shadow or something. With me. I just I fucking hate it. And when it comes to spirituality, it's so uniquely individual. It's going through your filter of like your subjective worldview and belief, and so I find it really difficult when things say things have to be done x Y Z way, or someone claims to have
all the answers. I'm like, that doesn't make logical sense, that makes no sense. Like each person's path is going to be to some degree, I think very much heavily influenced by what speaks to them, what calls to them, and so sometimes it does end up being a space of like a mishmash of things that you've picked up that really spoke to you for whatever reason, right.
Yeah, yeah, Like even for me, it's like I just like, I guess if I wanted to contact like some sort of planetary deity, there's like so many different ways I could do. I use the Olympic spirits, I could go by the regular planetary elements.
I could tie it to kabala, you know, and it wouldn't.
Be like a normal for someone to try to do that, but unlike some other orders or other or other ways of practices, it would just be like, no, this is how you're going to do that kind of yeah, you see what you're getting, or like the pantheon, you know, I used any pantheon I want, you know.
Yeah, what about chakras? Are you big into chakra work at all?
Yes? But with the with the kind of uh what do you call it? Caveat that I not like a yoga person or anything like that, but in a lot of different cultures and traditions they use energy centers. And so for me, just the fact that it's got the it's just the easiest to explain. It's the easiest for me to think of through that that framework of that system, that's why. But it's not necessarily yeah, if that makes sense.
Yeah, no, no, I get it at.
Version because even I think just the collective weight of of how much awareness is on that system, I think is also helpful.
Yeah. I was never I mean, I'll be honest.
I mean I did yoga here and there, but most of my whenever I really did, I guess chakra work. It was more of a meditative state where I would just focus on the chakra and try to like meditate on them and see if I could feel.
Yes, yeah, just you know these days I feel so I'm like, well, it wasn't trained in yoga or any of that sort of stuff, So I don't know if it's like, you know, okay to use that, But to me, I'm like, yeah, it makes sense. I have the work I've done with it with energy work and things like that, meditation, that.
Sort of I think it's very good for that.
Reading. Yeah, like reading energy people's energy as well. Is that that's it's very it's highly recognizable, it's easy to explain, and it just fucking works. So that's like helpful.
Now that was chakra work, and uh I can't remember the name of it. I do think there is some sort of phrase where it's like it's a common meditation where you like picture like a I guess a white light beaming down into your body and like going through it.
I forget there's some sort of name for the body of light something like that. Yeah, I guess between believe it not. Between chakra work and that. I was really able to sort of kind of like actually feel my own body's energy. It's like like seriously like weird. Actually, yeah, yeah.
It's crazy. I actually did the Gateway Gateway tapes.
Oh did you? Oh? I didn't it for.
Like a year like super frequent too. It was crazy. I was like, I'm just gonna fucking really like barrel down and do that. And I like did it for almost a year solid. That was like the biggest gap I had in There was like two weeks between doing them. And it's crazy what that does for your same as like I have affantasia. I do a lot of visualization white light like New Age shit like that, Like I do tons of that stuff. But Gateway was I had a couple instances where I had closed eye, like closed.
I you saw stuff with your eyes closed right, but I.
Saw, like I literally saw shit, and I was like, that's fucked. And it was like and it was because I was doing Gateway so often and so dedicated.
That's fun.
Yeah, there was at some point I started having crazy, crazy, magical experiences.
I'm going to go through all of it bit, but.
Like it was to the point where it was like I closed my eyes and it's like a fucking movie would just turn on. Yes, And I didn't find out about the Gateway tapes until after the fact. I think it was actually because the podcast somebody had mentioned to me they wanted to cover the Gateway tapes and I was like, oh, what's that And I checked it out and I was.
Like oh, I was like, I gotta try these things. And I think maybe I got to the I heard a fourth one.
It wasn't even that far in, and the shit already started turn it on like real fast, and I was like wow, And I already started getting certain it's like certain physical feelings that I would get when I really started getting out there, and I was like, you know what, this is speeding it up a lot faster. So I definitely think there is something to do. Like you even said you got visuals from it. It kicked that in real quick for me.
Yeah, and it helps you. I think it helps you orient to the energy of your body, just because it kind of makes you do the same process over and over as it goes in, Like regardless of which which tape you're on, you're always doing you know, the basically the resonant tuning, which is like, you know, that's like sound healing type stuff too, right, So I'm like, that's
like vocal toning. So like all of that stuff is it seems very It's funny how no matter where you go in like spirituality and weird shit, I just call it weird shit, all that associated stuff that we love. It's crazy how it's all kind of the same thing over and over in these different forms dressed as different things. But it's like the basics just start there.
Have you ever heard of him? He's interesting.
With this Friday of the Occult Rejects, we're going live of Friday Night and we're doing part three of the Gateway Project. Have you ever heard of like, uh, that that whole situation with the Gateway tapes that the CIA puts somebody into the Monroe Institute to check out the system.
Oh so you know what that you know what that's all about.
Yeah, yeah, we've actually been reading.
We've been reading the paperwork and going through.
Oh yo, I wish we got to get you all one day to talk about your experience with the tape.
If you don't mind, that would be cool. Ship. Yeah yeah, but it's funny that wow.
Yeah if it's like a weird out there thing' that'll be my my thing.
I love your jam. That's your jam is went out this ship. That's cool. Yeah, I can't.
Get enough of it. It's okay. Ever since I was a kid, it's like astral travel, lucid dreaming, like all of these. Ever since I was like a child, it was like that's what I that's that's what we're here to figure out?
Is this ship? Oh right now.
I even felt like that as a kid though, too, like all that weird stuff. It was like, yo, we got to figure it. Like, I don't know, I was just very intrigued about like how does that happen? How does that work?
Is that right? I don't know. Yeah, there's just.
Too curious about ordinary reality is boring. It's just not it.
Yeah, there's other like weird shit going on that. It's like, like, what's up with that? You know, like you said, Oh, it's so crazy, but yeah, that's coolest ship that you did that. Yeah, we were I think there was like a twenty seven page like thing that was released about it, and we even going through that and we're finishing.
It up this week.
So yeah, that's that's funny that you mentioned that.
It's really cool. Third, No, why is that based off of it or something?
Yeah, it's it's kind of like a cheesy documentary, but it's about it's about the origins of that. Oh it's so cool.
You should just have like how put off in them all the cheesy?
Yes, yeah it was. It was very it had I think they talked about like angle swan and all of that sort of stuff, but it was really it was really interesting. The Yeah, I definitely was like a little bit cheesy, but I fucking love I'll.
Check it out. Yeah nice.
Yeah.
Uh so you also said you have a you have some books. What was what was the first one? What what was the first one, and what made you even decide to start writing?
Uh So my first book is called Witchcraft Therapy. I haven't write here. It's Witchcraft Therapy. I actually decided to write this book because I noticed that, like a lot of witchy books are very much about like deity work. They're very devotional, and I wanted to write something that was more secular and approach and very much focused on like empowerment. So this is called Witchcraft Therapy, Your Guide
to banishing bullshit and invoking your inner power. And it's about like confidence self care, Like it's just about kind of yeah, centering you the practitioner in order to just feel better in life, because we only get one life experience, right well, in this configuration, so you might as well make the best of it by not letting your bullshit hold you back. So yeah, that's my first book was
Witchcraft Therapy. And then my second book was called Happy Witch This one right here, this is more about energetics, but it's still very much from like a secular perspective, and this is about finding happiness, trying to call in more happiness in your life. Then, oh my god, I have too many this I'm just going to go on and on here. But then I wrote Feral Self Care, one hundred Ways to Liberate and Celebrate your messy, wild
and tame self. So This is kind of like a Goblin Core like way of embracing the animal experience of being human, because we just put on pants and we pretend that we have our shit together, and that's like not doing us any favors. And so this is like an alternative self care god about you know, getting messy, getting out into nature, like reconnecting with the dark, you know, just kind of getting out of our heads and into our bodies. And then this one is shadow work for
hot messes. And I wanted to make a really easy, accessible shadow work guide because I notice that most shadow work books, and I'm not trying to just talk shit, I'm not trying to be a hater, a lot of shadow work books are just prompts. It's like mostly blank pages, and so I wrote this to kind of like demystify it.
So it's a combination of interactive elements and then also written stuff about how to do shadow work, because like the two questions that come up the most is like how to so for shadow work, how to start and then how to integrate, And most of the books are about I sorry, I guess I should rewind. I teach shadow work in three phases, so investigation or sorry, perception, investigation and then integration and a lot of the shadow
work books that exist folcus on phase two. So the investigation, So here's your prompts, but really you have to learn how to spot the patterns that are coming up in your life and then what to do with that information once you have it, so you're not just like circle jerking your demons, like, oh, I'm fucked up and you're just sitting there thinking how fucked up you are. That's like counterproductive. So I tried to write something that would
address all of those things. And because of my work experience and stuff, you know, I used to work in community inclusion for developmentally disabled adults. I get into like behavior shifts with like the ABC Model of Behavior for integration and like that sort of thing. So I tried to make it very easy, because shadow work does not have to be hard. People are like, oh, shadow work huge, We're saying, and I'm like, get the fuck over yourself, Like it's just is what it is. We're all human beings,
we're all here having a limited, imperfect experience. Get over yourself.
I agree, I agree.
I think that's actually extremely extremely important for what you're magician or whatever.
Occult is Yeah, in my opinion, yeah, for.
Sure has when you started this, as it has the outlook of this stuff changed for you over the years, Like yeah, yeah.
It's like that what is it that Alison Wonderland quote of like I've believed a million impossible things before breakfast or whatever it is. I'm butchering it, but but yeah, I think your perspective should change sometimes. I think way different things in the morning than I do it, and I and stuff when it comes to magic, which is why I mean, I think it's hard to define chaos magic.
But the fact that you can try on a belief for a ritual and then you know, try on a different, maybe even counter belief at a different time, I think that's important. I think that's what's missing in society in general.
We have such rigid thought systems and belief systems, and I think most of us have a lot of perplexing, contradictory beliefs even just wrapped up within ourselves, and we have to just be okay with that, and then it would give us some more open minded perspective on life in general.
I agree.
I agree, you got your working on any of the books coming.
Up well, I'm pitching. I'm pitching a book. So I have another book that's coming out, it's a Crystal Guide for young adults that's coming out in spring. And I'm trying to pitch a book on dreaming. Actually I'm trying to pitch like five different things because i have just like an ideas factory. But I'm currently working on a proposal for a dream book and then a different deck because I have I have a Witchcraft therapy oracle deck, but I have many other deck ideas, many other book ideas.
I'm super lucky. I'm so lucky that I get to do this and talk about.
Magic, especially if it's like your thing or yeah it's your loving, your passion.
It's amazing to be able to be able to do that.
Yeah, it's it's crazy. I mean we all walk around having the biggest mystery. Crazy Like consciousness is like we all walk around just like taking for granted, like it's it's crazy and if you think of it for too long, it'll melt your brain. But it's we all live in like this in pot We all just like walk around like it's normal. That apparently they tell us like oh, yeah, everything came from not like what are you fucking talking about? Like, why do our brains work like this? What is reality?
Doing psychedelics you're like, oh, reality is fake? Like this is real? Or like what is real? What is like? Oh, it's crazy. And then we're limited by the equipment we have and how we can perceive. Like I don't know, it's just I love the mystery.
Do you want? Do you use taro? Do you play with two little?
I do? But I actually prefer using just like oracle decks. I actually my favorite deck is a deck that has no guidebook whatsoever, it's just imagery because I like doing more intuitive style stuff. So my like with my uh, with my ADHD. I find that with regular tarot, I start thinking of like rigid rules of what each card means. So I prefer using oracle decks where I can like quiet that part of my brain. And so yeah, I
like using oracle decks. I like using tarot decks. Tarot decks are really good I find for spells, if you use like certain cards is like an archetype for what you're trying to energy you're trying to do.
Yeah, yeah, there's been a couple of candle magic spells that I've incorporated taro in to kind of like represent like what I was going for.
Yes, yeah, anything you can do to to prime your brain to be in that energy and that like frequency or whatever you want to call it.
So so I truly I think I actually was like doing stuff that might have literally come from the golden door of somebody in the I believe it or not, that is, including taro to it. I can't remember, but yeah, yeah, I think, uh yeah, that's that. That's uh have you you went to Cabala little? No? Okay, all right, No, I was gonna say when I use taro a lot I attributed to the Cabbala, it can maybe it can fit on the cabalistic tree of life.
Yeah, Like I'd love to learn more about it because I do find it interesting, Like it seems like you go back far enough, it usually comes back to that. So I'm like, oh, let's you hear about it a lot, and.
So yeah, yeah, you might actually find that stuff really interesting if you ever got into Cabola.
I don't know, that's that's a rabbit, yeah for you.
I bet, yeah, But uh nice?
What other uh I saw? Uh? Oh you're into like cord cutting too? Right?
Oh yeah, yeah, I think we need to use like any type of thing at our disposal. I like to do more cord cutting with my own self though, Like I've done it for attachments with other people and attachments with things, But for me personally, the majority actually have
my I have my cord rate here. The majority of my cord cuttings that I do is usually trying to get rid of a pattern or break up with my own bullshit in some way, because it's it's usually pattern based though, like really being in a space of like just being attached to my own bullshit or embodying an archetype I don't mean to, you know, sad bitch energy or whatever.
So for the listeners, I guess cord cutting would be kind of like a releasement of something. Yeah, yeah, just filet people though, because I don't know if I've ever actually had to mention that on the show before. So, yeah, when you do your sigils, do you do you charge them at all or anything like that? Is there a process that you go through with it?
Yeah? So I myself personally, I typically use a candle and energy work for charging them. I just find that to be the easier way. Or if i'm doing something artistically, I'm kind of like, well, I'm kind of charging it by actually putting a fucking energy into it. And so I try and set myself up in a space where you know, if you're doing because I do quick ones too, just kind of like scrap it out so that I
can put it on a candle or whatnot. But if I'm actually like painting one, you can use like moon water, you can use storm water is a really good like if I like collecting waters from if we have a storm or something outside, using that for painting and things that I think helps just like lend lend the energy to it is as much as you can.
That's cool. I never thought of using moon water to paint with.
Yeah, yeah, like artsy shit.
Yeah, I used. I've used candles too. I would sometimes like meditate over them, but I would always like normally incorporate a candle and I think I would let it burn all the way out and then I would consider like the charges over.
Well, do you like, do you find that it's easier to do it? Like I feel like there's always a candle involved with most, Like I'm like, there's gonna be a candle somewhere.
I was always using anytime I do anything, Yeah, no, I do actually yeah, yeah that is interesting. Yeah yeah, no matter like if I was charged in something, I incorporated a candle.
Yeah yeah, I mean I feel like it kind of just again sets the space to some degree. It's like a psychological primer, like you're doing magic. Now there's a fucking candle.
Like it's a flame. It's magical, right, yeah. Yeah.
Uh. Is there any other stuff like maybe that you're into your practice that I really haven't gotten into.
Gosh, I don't know. I mean it's a little hard to say because I kind of do different things every like gosh, my lat the last year. I'm not running it now, but last year I ran a membership where we I hosted sessions every single week for the whole year, and I'd have for each season it was seasonal, i'd have six guest speakers. But aside from that, I was running the sessions and so we did like energy work,
we did color healing sessions. We did a lot of art sessions, like different ways to kind of do because I'll do like art style shadow work stuff. It's too bad I don't have my book, so I can't show examples, but there's a lot of different things you can do. I actually have a freebie for my email list that is like a practice where you can just like dump your shit out of your system and then use it to create like a message from your higher self. It's like crazy. I love running it live because when I
run it live people it's so organic. You can't force what you're going to do, you can't plan ahead what you're going to do, and people always get really amazing, encouraging and impactful things from it. So, you know, it's really hard to say because every I just do so
many different things depending on what I feel like doing. Essentially, if I feel called to do something, I try and do that and then I don't get bored and then everything's fresh and then you see what works what doesn't, and you kind of like refine and move from there. But yeah, it was crazy because the last year doing that membership program every fucking week, and so we did
so much. I did guided visualizations, we did guided meditations, I did active imagination sessions, which those three things are more or less different degrees with the same thing. But like, there's so many different things that you can do, and I personally believe that your practice should be your your spiritual playground. Like I think you should have fun with it.
Like we're all grown ups, we got it. We have to like pay bills and exist and whatever the fuck this is and follow these stupid rules that are like they make no fucking sense. Like we're like walking around policing each other, telling each other how to live, and we're all get putting on pants as if that's a normal thing.
It's like we're all turned into corrections offices.
It's so crazy. It's so crazy. And so I think that spirituality is like a way that you can have fun and explore and like get your self care in in a way that's not It doesn't have to cost a ton of money, it doesn't have to take you know, a ton of time. You don't have to like perform,
you can just live. And so I think that, yeah, I mean it's to answer your question, I feel like I do anything and everything depending on what I feel like doing and what I need at that moment, and I advise everyone to do the same, like have fun with it. I think a lot of times when people feel disconnected from their practice, it's because they're doing shit that they were told they have to do and it doesn't work for them anymore. They don't connect with it.
So find something you connect with and fucking do it.
No, I've done that myself throughout, like my I guess magical career, like certain things, and it's like, you know, you get told as like kind of staples of the things that you should do, and it's like, well, I just don't feel like doing it, and then it's like you kind of fuck it all off and it's like, well, yeah,
I'll just find other things to do. That is, you know, neither I'll start reading into new things that I want to learn, or maybe I'll start doing a little bit more of something else, and then I'll go back to it eventually when.
I'm not so sick of it.
But yeah, yeah, I know what you mean by like like the meditation. For a while, it was hard for me to get into. Everybody's going to suggest it though, I mean, I hate to say, and I think that is one of the things you do kind of should do. Yeah, that I would get tired of sometimes that I'd fuck it off and I'd read more, or I'd start learning other things. You know, maybe I'll do rituals instead or practiced you know, some sort of ritual.
But then I finally went back to it.
But I do think it's hugely important, and I find it cool that you did guide of meditations and stuff like that.
Oh yeah, yeah, it's it is something that's important and the reason I did that membership and now I'm missing it and talking about it. It was like so fun. But one of the things that can happen I've seen and that I've heard people complain about, is that there's so much reading books. Will collect the books like usually, which is an occult. People love books, so we'll just
toward all the books. But we love to do that, but then it's like when it comes to actual practice and integrating and seeing whether or not it works, I feel like there's a lack of there can be a lack of action because and it's usually because we're looking for authority outside of ourselves. So it's like if you actually get down and you practice, then you're going to see what works. You'll go this works, this didn't. And so we tried to make like a membership so that
people would do it every single week. I'd have the guest speakers as well, so that it would be like you can try on these different things, see what works, what doesn't, and then take that and run with it, like seriously figure out what works.
Yeah, that's really awesome that you said. That's pretty cool. Yeah, it was probably.
It was fun as hell. Am my intuition and everything like fuck, it was great. Like my skills were developing because I was literally every week I had to get there, be there in practice.
Oh yeah, it's so beneficial for you anyway, regardless. Right.
Yeah. So it was like, and I'm learning from the guest speakers too, so I would like pick the guest speakers I wanted to learn shit from.
Why not? It's your show, right, yeah, you know, I don't blame it.
Yeah, it was super fun.
It's good. Do you up for me?
And I've mentioned as the listeners too, wonder if you would agree. I know a lot of times people are like, oh, it's hard to meditate. It's hart to meditate. I even started out with guided meditations just to get used to trying to like, yeah, just cutting off like one hundred of the one hundred and twenty voices I hear at the same time, you know, yes, And like another thing too, with meditation. I mean, I don't know less your opinion, and God bless you if you can do it for me.
It's not necessarily shutting everything off. It's like just focusing on maybe one one or trying to you know what I'm saying, because a lot of people like, oh, I can't claim my mind, and it's like I can't either. It's just you know, I cut down some of the voices.
That's all.
Yeah, And it's like part of it is just the discipline practice of trying of noticing the other thoughts coming in and just being like redirecting yourself like Okay, let's just let it go and keep at this. I think it's it's it's an interesting thing. Meditation is kind of become this thing that can feel like a chore to ignore,
and it's like it doesn't have to be that. I actually wrote a substack post about like what to do if you can't meditate, because a lot of people are like I can't meditate, and it's like, yes, I think that people should meditate, but there are alternatives. Like there's people that have lived happy lives and they've died having never meditated once and they've been just fine, Like it's
it's a skill to development. It will it will help you, But often we can find ourselves in meditative states from you know, you could do most you could do, yeah, you could. Some people do sports, some people are running, some people do people right. So it's just like, I don't know what gets you out of your fucking head
go and do that. And then yeah, whether it's doing it with a focus like for example, like if you're doing like an active imagination style session or if you're doing meditation, just like just trying to do the classical like you know, watch your observe your thoughts, let them move through, try not to get attached to any of them. It's a it's a discipline, and so you just keep trying to do it. So part of it is like it's not something you have to get right right, it's
it's the practice of getting used to doing that. So I think it's one of these things that has just gotten this weird way to it that it doesn't need to have. Again, I'm like one of these people that thinks everything should be kind of playful and fun, and if it's not, you're not going to fucking do it. Why punish yourself.
I've even like at there's been times where it's like I try to find like fifteen minute like MBA tracks and it's like all right, I'll just sit in a chair or lay and just listen to this and just try not to think about too many things. I listened to like guided meditations where it was like borderline like almost for like teens, it was like, yeah, it was
like like explaining some talent. It's like almost sounds like a belonged to like Hobbit the Lord of the Rings, And I was like anything, you know, it was like anything just to like I guess I really did believe.
For me, I was like I haven't feeling this meditation shit might help.
So I really did try to like try so many different ways to like get it to click at first, but eventually it did.
Yeah, And that's the thing is it's it's a skill, right, Like it's the sort of thing that, yeah, you can try it. The problem is that that I think there's a word for it. But like before before you get the rewards, it's trying to motivate yourself to do the where you're actually doing the learning, and then after that where you're getting the rewards back, it's trying to keep up with it as you're developing that skill.
One thing I did want to ask, I don't know what made it pop up into my head? Do you work with psalms at will?
No?
Okay, I was just wondering. Too many people do. I just yeah, I'm thinking like that. For some reason, I can't remember the guy's name. Somebody I did listen to a lot, like for on podcasts for meditative work. The guy worked with he worked with angels and psalms a lot, And I think that that thing that just popped into my head.
Yeah, I figured, yeah, yeah, no, I don't. I don't do anything neither of us.
Or angels. I don't do work with angels or deities.
Yeah you say, you really don't work with deities any Oh, I guess the psalms plant spirits?
Yes, oh yeah, do you work with plant spirits?
Well? Yeah, particularly I like psychedelics, so I do like.
Oh oh, I think, I said, do you like herbalism?
I do believe plans have a spirit. I think that if you go out into nature and you commune with energies, trees, that sort of thing, like the I think they will talk back to some degree. And so that's I think one of the things that keeps me from being fully secular. So when I you know, there's not a lot of representation out there for secular minded witches, I would say, but I mean there's there's this idea that you know, is it can you be a witch and still be secular?
And when I say secular, I usually just mean like, doesn't do deity work, doesn't necessarily worship a higher power. Does that mean I don't believe in it or maybe you know, might change my mind about it every couple of days or every couple of months or something. No. I think that's part of the enduring mystery. But nature, you just know, like there's other things at play, there's
other spirits out there, there's other workings out there. And you know, anybody that does psychedelics, I mean, it's funny. The last time I did them, I was I had this epiphany that the reality itself is made up of silly little guys. It was the most profound insight at the time.
You would think, oh, by the TV and the news, I think that's true, right.
Fuck yeah, yeah, oh god, I don't watch the news.
Oh yeah, I can't get it to politics.
That it just kills people. It's just it's horrible.
Yeah. And then it's like it seems like the most yeah anyway.
This most decisive thing whatever.
Yeah, Like it's almost as if keeping us really divided and at each other's throat has some sort of benefit. It's crazy.
No, you're right, you're right. Oh man, I was gonna ask you something else. I know, I totally forgot. I gotta throw it off.
Oh yeah, all right, so the meditation, I don't think it was anything on.
That anything else? What was the books again? Real quick? Let everybody know the books again too that you have?
Yeah, sorry, it's like such a laundry letter.
Oh yeah.
I wrote Witchcraft Therapy, Happy witch Feral self care, shadow work for Hot Messes. And then I have my Witchcraft therapy oracle deck, which I'm actually really excited about. So my oracle deck is cool because it's meant it's again Witchcraft therapy based, so it's very much about your psychology. So I wrote the deck that I wish I had, And so this deck is it has like an explanation of what each card is, and then it has like
a suggested practice ritual something that you can do. Uh. That goes along with each card, So like, if you just pull one in the morning, you can it'll give you some guidance and actual actionable guidance because I try and make my work like very much about action, because again, people like to read a lot of books, and I try and make everything I create have an actionable element. But also, if you are going to use these cards for say spell work, for example, this is I'm just
pulling one, but this is the what if card. So say you wanted to do a candle spell or a bass spell, or some sort of spell for opening up to new possibilities. You could take this card. You could put it up by your bed, you could meditate on it. You could light a candle with it to open up to the energy of what if. Right. So I tried to make it so that it would be a good companion for people that are trying to look at their practice as a form of empowerment or self care.
I like it. I like it.
I will have to say, there's one thing that I thought was different about you when I came across your account. I didn't notice pretty pretty soon that you're big into like a lot of the self care stuff, you know, and then taking.
Care of you know, your mental health and this and that, and I don't know how to say this. I guess like that be nascy toads other people.
But a lot of a lot of other accounts I've ever come across that I liked that they seem to kind of like, I don't see you making reels telling people how to think and how to act. You're just saying, get your shit together, you know what I'm saying, a lot of self care. A lot of those people almost seem to turn into some guru that's just telling you how to live, you know.
What I'm saying.
And I didn't get that vibe from you at all, Like I just feel like you actually kind of like make fun of serious real shit, the funny side of serious shit, you know what I'm saying, or kind of like admit, like you know, we're all fucked.
Up in our own way, you know somehow, or dealing with them.
Yeah, well I was like mental like I'm telling you,
I've been. Yeah, I know what it's like to, you know, be in a situation where you know where your mental health is is so poor that, for example, you get put into a hospital and you get your clothes taken away and shit like this is this is the realities of life and being human that I think that we spend so much time judging ourselves and judging each other that we don't recognize as a fundamental part of being human is that we have this fucking thing up here
that sometimes muddies the waters quite a lot. And so I think it's something that you don't need to take so seriously. I think when people take things so seriously and act like they're on some mountaintop and they're like gliding down with all the answers, as if that makes any sense, I mean, you know, thinking of for example, I think it was described the best by Robert Anton Wilson when he talks about like reality tunnels, Like, how are you gonna come with your reality tunnel and tell
me how to live my life? I just don't think it's possible. That's why I think everybody needs to find their own way, because we are all to some degree limited by our subjective worldview, beliefs, experiences, whatever, and so your responsibility is to figure out what yours is and how to make the best of what you've got and what you're capable of within that and that's kind of why, like naming my account and my handles is always heeling for hot messes. Is partly because I want to establish
right off the bat that there's no hierarchy. Nobody has authority over you, Nobody has authority over your practice, over how you're going to do things, how you're what you're going to find that works for you. Like you can get inspiration, you can get you know, you can get help with learning, but it's not like somebody can come and be like, this is what you have to do, like make sure you drink forty eight glasses of water, and like, you know, it's just like the dumbest shit.
And I feel like the Internet is just full of that, Like is it just seems to be like, Oh, I've made my entire family the exact state of shade of blush pink, so we all matt and it just it's not authentic. It's so annoying, And then it makes people feel bad about themselves because they're like, why doesn't my life look like that? Because you're not fake. That shit's fake. That's financially incentivized. It's the attention economy has just scrambled everything.
So yeah, I mean, I like self care, but I think self care is like looking at the stars. I don't think you have to go, you know, I don't think you have to go and like spend a bunch of money and do a bunch of shit. Like even the word self care kind of make me gag a little bit because it's because it's been co opted into this really weird kind of prepackaged capitalist nonsense and it doesn't Yeah.
That's kind of what I was getting at. Yeah, that's kind of exactly. I didn't catch that with you.
I got a lot of these people that's like, you're gonna have trauma forever and you're gonna have to have me help you with it.
One of those people I know everything.
Yeah, and it's just, yeah, there seems to be this thing of like I'm wearing a Maxi dress, so you better listen to me because I'm a forty eighth degree initiated some woman or whatever.
Yeah, it's something that they just made up, doesn't exist.
Yeah, it's so crazy, it's funny, it's gross.
Yeah, yeah, crazy days we're living in for sure, for sure.
It is. But like if you think of it, and I try and make this point anytime I have an opportunity, and so I'll use this as well as like, you know, people were practicing magic and shit like that since since humans were human, ing like this is like a thing that is a very core to our existence and our being. They didn't have fucking stores, they didn't have a million different crystals at their disposal, They didn't have five hundred
books or libraries or things like that. Like they figured it out based on their intention and based on their ability to be in touch with themselves and the world around them, whether it be the spirits, the cosmos, whatever. There was that clear, direct kind of thing. And now it seems like because our culture is kind of decaying in that similar way, is that we're looking for the answers everywhere as if we can buy them or we can like fix things, and that's not how any of that works.
So I like that.
Yeah, it was one thing you also said earlier that I think was a really good point. And I think this is what screws people up, is that, like I think the way media or the TV or whatever the selling people a full's version of reality. Yes, like that it's not even real, So like we chase something that's that isn't real. Yeah, you know what I'm saying, Like, and that's a mind fucking itself to make us think that though you know what I'm saying, that's that's interesting.
The way you put it before.
These people really don't live like that, not really like that, but they make you believe that that's reality. And then people want to mimic that and be like that, and it's like it's not real though, like people.
And we all am like it's crazy because we're all programmed to some degree to buy into it, and we buy into it in big and small ways, and it's so crazy if you think about it, like try and think of it outside of that frame of reference, and it seems a little bit, it seems a little bit ridiculous, and like when you catch it, it's hard. It's hard. You can't really unsee it once.
You see it, and then things become they make less and less and less sense, and so it becomes a part of like man, sometimes it just like why how do we how did we get ourselves here?
Like yeah, just before we wrap it up, would you like to let everybody know where they can find all your stuff again? Like wherever they can find your YouTube? Or where any of your books.
You have a website, Yeah, so my books are everywhere that books are sold, or you can go there's some links on my website, which is Healing for Hot Messes dot com. And then you can find me on YouTube and Instagram. My handle is Healing for Hot Messes. I'm taking like a bit of a break from social media right out, but you can find me at Healing for Hot Messes. You can sign up for my email list or anything like that on my website Healing for Hot
Messes dot com. I'm on Facebook as Mandy m Writer, and then I'm also on.
Substack awesome if you want send me a substack and maybe your Facebook. I think the other links I can grab bof of your Instagram right your link trees on there.
I think something like that.
Yeah, I believe so, but I don't know how out of data. I have like a tendency to have things from like three months ago.
Yeah, well, if you want to send me some links and I'll make sure I put those on the show notes for you. But no, no, thank you. I had a really good talk. It was awesome.
I'm glad I got you on and hopefully we'll get you on again at some other point, maybe to talk about something else or even the Gateway stuff, because I do find that.
Yeah, that would be rad if Yeah, you want to talk aliens, you want to talk?
Oh really, okay, dreams, all right, okay, yeah for sure, all right, I'll have to keep that in mind, for sure, for sure.
Awesome. Thank you so much for having me.
No, of course, no, thank you. And uh yeah, if you're interested in all links will be at the bottom. Go check us stuff out. And that is the end of another recall rejects and until the next one, everybody be well later.