Don't you fuck me?
I fuck me, I fucking harm.
Howdy folks, your host Double J, host of Operation GCD, back here for Friday's. However, my co host Nick will not be joining us tonight. In his place, we got.
Nate, host of Reality is Ours podcast. Nate. Appreciate you joining.
Us absolutely, Thank you for having me.
Man.
This was a lot of fun the last time I was on, and I'm excited to be here.
Nice.
Appreciate appreciate you here. Yeah, Nick came down with some sort of flu bugs. Hopefully he'll be back next week. But yeah, look, I enjoyed our last conversations on here, Nate, so definitely looking forward to another. I'm actually just coming back from injured reserve myself. I blew out my jaw uh a couple of weeks ago, but it's doing a lot better now.
Good man.
Yeah, you got a freshly shaved face too. Didn't you have a big beard the last.
Time I saw it, big beard, long hair, still kept the head and then I used to keep my hair in bed, just you know, just for the bit the uh. Yeah, I had to clean up for uh for some uh attend some family business.
So m.
Clean cleaned up for some of those situations. But anyhow, our guest to tonight, Jonathan Mitchell. Greeting, Sir, I appreciate you joining us here for a discussion here on our Friday. You're, uh, we're obviously gonna be discussing here some you're the author of, uh, the book The Before Son of Sam, the Submerged History of a Yonker's Cult.
Looking forward to discussing.
Some of that there with you, John, Yes, absolutely, and uh, basically yeah, I just wanted to looking forward to having a uh kind of a round table discussion on this
on the same murders. I'm kind of very interested in hearing some of your your take in regards to the kind of the evolution of activity surrounding the uh you know, the Maureitary investigation and subsequent activities you know post that, and you know, basically our current state of affairs surrounding the topics, because you obviously have a long term you know, perspective and viewpoint on the matter.
Yeah, yeah, talking about.
It any anything else you're gonna talk about by all means, you know, you're you got the floor there, John, And I said, appreciate you, appreciate you joining us.
Well, thank you I'm glad to be here. I was trying to find a place to start. Usually when I do these shows, it's, uh we tend to start out with just sort of a sketch for people that are unfamiliar with the case. You know, who what was son of Sam? You know who was David Berkowitz? Was there any evidence that he committed all of the shootings or you know, was there you know, conflicting evidence somewhere? So I could go over that for folks that are unfamiliar with the case.
Sure well, Nate sounds like he's got a very base one understanding, so maybe uh yeah, he would start there. That sounds a good idea, Nate, Nate, what's your understanding of the Sun of Sand? For so? I, No, Jonathan's focused not only on the sunderstand but some of the prelude cold activity and the the epicenter of activity there.
In Yonkers Yonkers of New York.
Sure, man, I have like a very you know, I just have the outline there. The first thing that caught my mind was the Berkowitz. The first thing that popped in because I'm a crazy conspiracy theorist, and I was like jew, uh so.
Then I didn't know that.
Yeah, so his birth mother and his birth father were both Jewish, and I think his adopted family was also Jewish. Uh, which is I mean, it doesn't really matter, but that was just the first thing that that I was also kind of shocked that he was still alive. It was kind of I thought I just assumed he was dead, and I was.
Kind of in health. You know, the interviews he don't he gives. He seems appears to be in decent health.
Is he actually given a given out interviews?
I didn't even know he was.
Yeah, he's been tried to get him on the show What are we doing? So, Yeah, he's an interesting character. I was trying to see, like if he was born bad, Like I was trying to see, like what what snapped in him, because he seemed like he grew a pretty normal life. He was given up for adoption, right, he was adopted by It seemed like his folks were all right. His mom, his adopted mother, died when he was a teenager, about fourteen. I think that was probably pretty traumatic. Maybe
his dad was kind of a dick. It kind of sounds like a little bit but like nothing that in my mind. It was also a very brief window supposedly that he was doing the killings. It was like one year, it was like July to July. I think it was what seventy four or seventy five to seventy six or seventy seven.
But yeah, yeah, very very well.
It sounds those are some good baselines there, Nate too. For John to jump in here, maybe he can fill in some of those details.
Yeah, he it was just that that year long period and he you know, he claims that he didn't even join the group until nineteen seventy five, so that's still a pretty brief window there, although there is some evidence that he was at least acquainted with or aware of the cult prior to that. And you know, he had a friend who also knew the car Brothers, who figure heavily in the story, you know, and this friend allegedly was still involved in the cult during the Son of
Sam years. So berkelewitzmy have at least been aware of the cult prior to nineteen seventy five.
Interesting, So, like that's that's a very big turning point because his exit from the army, so that you were mentioning his kind of his childhood, he seemed to have a tumultuous childhood. Sure, but it seems to like whatever went on in dude's life went on during his years of the army and what you know, kind of his transition at least mentally speaking, you know, into adulthood. There he went into the army. I believe was for three years.
Correct me if I'm wrong with John. It was three years there from what.
Two seventy five?
Yeah, And to be quite honest with you, I've asked this question a lot of folks, and I've never gotten the answer seeing any documents. I questioned his exit from the army, so he alleged it from many stories, at least write letters to some.
Of his friends.
He apparently wrote, he lit the NCO Club on fire over there in Korea at the Army basin Kree he was stationed at. If that's true, he would have got a dishonorable discharge. And he got a dishonorable discharge. Well, he's not getting a.
Security guard license in the state of New York. He's not getting.
Hired by the Post Office because a dishonorable discharge has more weight than a federal felony. Like federal I thought these are better stat you want to have that, you know better more than a dishonorable discharge.
I didn't. I couldn't find what he did. I was looking briefly, but uh, it just said that he left honorably. He had an honorable discharge, which is kind of interesting. And there's always that weird like, uh, the folks that are in the military that are acting funny, that do some dumb shit, they have to kick them out, and uh they end up having like uh like federal connections
and things like that. And I always kind of question, especially during that era with serial killers in general, like, uh, it almost seemed like most of it was an op like most of it was some MK ultra interesting stuff which also has cult ties. Uh, some of those satanic cult ties. I think a lot of that is a deep state MK ultra type of things.
Well, that's a that's a good point.
I often wonder what the crossover was between if there was ever any interactions between Michael Lokino and Berkowitz at his last station there at Fort Knox.
They seemed to have some overlap in timeframes.
But so, John, what got you started on this path as far as writing your book The Before The Son of sam book, The Submerged History of Ancors called, which I think is a great you know, a great way to put the whole scene to perspective of how there was, you know, a lot of existing cold activity, you know, prior to prior to this era of the nineteen mid nineteen seventies and late nineteen seventies of these murders. But what got you, what got you interested in the subject in general?
You know, I just picked up Maury's book. I didn't really know much about the case, but I found a copy of a used bookstore, and I was immediately fascinated with it. You know, even though it's by necessity it was missing a lot of the names, and he used a lot of aliases, you know, for various players in the story. But I you know, I took notes on it myself, and I was just really impressed by Maury's
research and his writing ability and everything. And then about two thousand and two, I ran into someone who had worked at the Magical Child bookshop in New York, and I asked him what his opinion of the case was.
And he was not a fan of Maury at all, yet he said, you know, I read the book and I was familiar with Maury's work in the newspapers, you know, prior to the to the release of the book, and he said, I believe not only was he right that there was a cult and that more than one person than Berkowitz was involved, but that Maury got the specific participants right, meaning the car Brothers and these other books.
So he said, you know, in spite of the fact that he did not care for Maury, he believed that Maury's thesis was basically correct. So from there, I just I poked around here and there wherever I could, you know. I started to do some newspaper research and then got into it full time about eight late twenty eighteen early twenty nineteen.
Okay, well let me yeah, let me interject you real quick, because you you, uh, you had some some good details there I was unfamiliar with. You met you met somebody who worked at the Magical Child bookstore.
Huh? Was it was it Peter Lavenda?
No, No, it was another individual. Uh. We we met on a Zodiac Killer chat board. Actually, you know, because there was such a wide range of people that were interested in that too. But he had mentioned his background, I thought, well, since he was around for some of this as it was happening, I couldn't resist asking him about the Ultimate Evils.
So yeah, it was.
It was a brief conversation, you know, but it was it was as specific, I think, as he cared to be. But it's interesting that, you know, I've told people that, you know, back twenty twenty five years ago, you could have a legitimate discussion about the case, even with people who weren't fans of Maury or Morey's work or whatever, right, and they wouldn't. They didn't try to dismiss Morey out of hand and call them a crackpot and call them
all these silly names and stuff. The case now is that the other team is completely just irrational, and you know they don't. They're just inordinately hostile to everybody whose questions.
Very vitriology with all their messaging, right, everything, all their communications seemed very vitriolic to me.
Yes, yes, definitely, Yeah.
And you probably have a lot more insight of that than I do from just kind of watching things, you know, un fold, because I believe you you were involved in some research teams that is that correct in recent years with some some of this vitriolic nature of activities that.
Yeah, and it was. It was tough, you know, because I assumed these people at one individual in particular was my friend because we were this was during COVID, so a lot of us were home and we had a little more time to devote to all this research. So we talked to each other nearly every day, and uh, you know, you get you get pretty close to people under those circumstances, and you you know, just on the basis of the research, you assume that you're all on
the same page. But things got very weird and I figured out very quickly that we were not all on the same page, unfortunately. But yeah, yeah, twenty twenty one was a weird period there, that first half of that year.
Yeah, I like to put a put a pen on that point as far as some of these activities surrounding, you know, in this information that's popped off in recent years, because I want to go back to this Magical Child situation. That's a very fascinating place to me and Nate, are you familiar with Have you ever heard of the Magical Child bookstore? It was one of these, one of one of two only occult bookstores in all of New York City.
Now I'm not familiar with it at all.
Actually, have you ever seen the film Ghostbusters?
Yes, how they.
Found Yeah, the acroyd Acroid based his accult bookstore off of The Magical Child. So this is a the popular amongst the cultest of all varieties, you know, ohto folks, you know, Satanist folks, Mormon folks, processed church folks, you know, you know, all these characters. Peter Lavenda worked there part time,
apparently according to himself. And again he's an interesting character I think relative to the whole burke Wood storyline too, because Peter Lavenda went to the same high school and ran around the same social social circles, apparently by a mission.
With with uh with David Burkowitz.
I actually suspect there's probably more of a I don't know, John Johnny may have with thoughts on it, and i't want to get too far off on a different tangent. I just think there may be more of the storylineup as far as Leavenda and his buddy and how maybe burke Witz ever got linked up with the cars in the first place.
There's it's always possible that MORENFO is gonna emerge, because this case is you know, I've seen things that I never thought would happen. I've talked to people that I never expected to talk, you know, and things just got uh yeah, there's always more information out there.
Uh.
The individual I spoke to, you know, he he also worked at the shop, and he he loved Herman. I think he considered Hermann Slater the owner of a surrogate father basically. But you know, Herman would lose his temper and he would fire the guy multiple times, and then he always hired him back. So he he had a genuine affection for for the store and the person that owned it. But he also had been active in the OTO for a while. And yeah, tell me about that was that it was an acquired taste.
So that's a weird that's a weird statement. It's a very weird statement. That's a very weird statement. So Herman Slater is an interesting character though, so Nate, the guy that then's the random magical child.
He Uh.
He would appear on what was it, maybe Maury Povich or something opposite, Maury Terry debating these topics of Satanic colts and you know, not specifically as understanding, but other Satanic the whole Satanic panic movement. You know, you'd have folks like Herman Slater here, the owner of this bookstore, opposite Mari Terry on the early nineties TV circuit discussing
these topics. Then later I find out and speaking with all this information that Johnny saying has popped off in recent years, the release of all these tarot and the variations of different Terry files. I'll argue, and I'll go back to it here in a moment with you, but you know, the release of all these files, and Terry had on a list Herman Slater as a member of the cult. So you know, he's literally going up apparently going on TV note like with full mindset that he's debating a dude from the.
Cult about the cult.
You know what I mean, that's got to be a rough environment to go to go, you know, to voluntarily put yourself into.
Yes, I would say so, yeah.
And that's one of the reasons I have a lot of respect for the man in his work. He may he may be incorrect in some of his assessments. I'm sure he faced a lot of intentional misleading various you.
Know, Yeah, he was to head with these people because actuallyrect yeah, yeah.
He Yeah, that's a good it's a good way to frame me. That's what I was trying to get out there with them, Voluntarily going on these shows knowing Corner's own notes, knowing that that this dude that he's debating is a member of the cult, that he's a video aut right, like, you know, that's the balls right there.
Yeah, and these were very you know, Herman was even by the kindest estimation, he was a strange person, and arguably, according to some evidence, more than strange, you know, he was dangerous.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, very odd stuff. So twenty eighteen, you got you got real heavy into the research, and then you said you were working.
In a research group.
Come twenty twenty, but you wrote your book was published in twenty twenty, Is that correct?
That's right.
Yeah.
I met some of the folks that I worked with shortly after I published the first version. Then a few months later there were there was someditional information that I'd found out in a couple of corrections I wanted to make. So I've just added some you know, a little bit of text to the same book. And uh, but yeah, the first version came out, in fact, almost exactly five years ago. It was in February twenty twenty.
So oh good, nice, Yeah, and it put me.
In contact with various folks, and.
You know, unfortunately I forgot you connected with the publisher of the book, and then you got connected.
With Yeah, some folks reached out to me, and you know, I think, sadly people can not everybody did this, but some people misrepresented themselves at the beginning. And yeah, yeah, I was working elbow to elbow with them, and unfortunately there their objective was different than mine was.
Yeah.
It's such an odd environment, isn't it. And so I've been following these activities, and to be honest with you, I got into the Sun the same case through Charles Manson. It's crazy enough that and researching my own heritage. I hail from Fairfield County, Connecticut, and specifically the town of Ridgefield, just across the border there from Westchester County. Actually, my family's home was two and a half miles away from
the processed church headquarters there. Well, yeah, there in Westchester County. Basically the same road. You just you know, you take a t intersection. One of one of them you stay in the state. The other one goes across the border into Connecticut, and we had lived right across the border
into Connecticut. So I just you know, looking at that whole area, there's a lot of weird cold like looking at the whole ultimate evil narrative of all the recruitment and boy Scout troops and stuff like that in the Westchester County area. It seems all that stuff is going on in the Fairfield County, you know, in the Connecticut
region as well. And again you have a lot of weird stuff going on and around the town of Ridgefield, that whole area just opposite of you know that you know, opposite of the that area of Westchester County that seems particularly creepy if you ask me, the that nature preserve region Hollywood film sets used to They filmed a lot of Hollywood movies rightrever than that little little corner of the county there in Westchester, right where the right where
the processed Church setup shop is, you know, just adjacent to once Again Film Studios. It seems like everywhere they go is from Charles Manson and the Spawn Ranch to the you know, the Canal of Utah best Friends Animal Society buying out you know, all that Disney Film Studio property and well, not just Disney.
But you know large part of Disney, you know it.
See where they go, it's film, film studios, you know, movie branches if you will.
Yeah, I think they do enjoy being in close proximity to film and filmmakers. Yes, absolutely.
Right. It seems to go hand in hand, right.
Yeah, it does. It does eerily so. And in fact, I had to I had to make a little bit of a case for that in my book with a really low budget film that unfortunately not many people have seen. It was just kind of a cheap drive in horror movie, but it was. It was called Invasion of the Blood Farmers, was shot just about twenty miles north of Yonkers, but still in Westchester County, and the everything about the finish just like a thinly fictionalized version of the story that
we're talking about. It's this group of dirt farmers. They're disguised. They're disguised as dirt farmers, they're actually druids and they're trying to resurrect their queen through taking the blood of both human and animal victims. Anybody familiar with the larger story that Morey told in The Ultimate Evil is going to find a lot of the plot points of that movie eer really familiar. It's a terrible movie, but there's so much in it that's relevant in relation to this case.
But it's a strange little movie. But yeah, it was filmed in Westchester too, in nineteen seventy two.
Interesting. Yeah, a lot of strange stuff going on there.
So yeah, I getting back to the kind of the evolution of things from what I was from my perspective. So I've been following these things, I don't know, at least more specifically conversations relatives specific to the process since around twenty twenty, right, Syra twenty.
I lose y'all, my back, my back, Okay, yeah, you're back.
I was wondering if it was on my end or.
If so SIRRAA twenty thirteen.
The only folks on the interwebs talking about these subjects specifically the Process, Church and the Son of Sam, both Mary Terry's investigations generally speaking, was that Opperman. I've I've just you know, I've been on operating the show before. You know, We've communicated various topics. Yeah, he has some
good assessments. A lot of a lot of these, uh are good analysis and a lot of these cold activities I think surrounding these topics, and again because again he's he's got the evolution of a lot of the you know, the discussion, a lot of the you know, you know, knowing a lot of the characters involved. Jim Rothstein, He's
on numerous interviews with him over the year. So these are the things I've kind of followed really over the I know, I know he's he's a contentious character and needs some comments in the Yet I know he's a contentious character, but he nonetheless he has a bit of a historian in these topics relative to his catalog of interviews and again interactions because again, you know, I'm not familiar with were you were you part of this this infamous Mare Retarry facebook group?
I mean, these are things I never really were involved with, But.
Yeah, I never was. I just I'm just not a great social media person, So I was really never on Facebook for very long. But Ed had me on his show a couple of times, and my experience was nothing but great with him. You know, I enjoyed doing the show, and he gave me a platform at a time when a lot of this really terrible stuff was happening, and misleading information was getting out, and he allowed me to get on and correct the record, So it was it was really good to be on there.
Sure I heard that interview is a good interview for sure, and I highly recommend folks check that out, even if you don't like that album, and check out John's interviews on there, because he goes into some of these discussions.
If I remember correctly, that's right.
Yeah, regarding how all of a sudden, you know, he was getting a lot of messages from folks being sent to him, you know, on these topics that all of a sudden there's an uptick in interest, and it is very curious what is that uptacking interest? Is it the same uptick and interest that is generated now numerous Netflix documentaries on the topic. Yes, seeds to be a concerted
effort to me. I mean, these are my opinions on the matter from looking over you know, watching these subjects, you know, reading, you know, you know, I read The Ultimate Evil for the first time probably around twenty to fifteen, I think it was, you know, the same time I
was getting really into Charles Manson. I read every book on you know, the Family at Sanders The Family, great book on Manson highly recommend his stuff, you know, looking at his notes, I was shocked to learn him and him and Terry remained, you know, close associates for many years up until Terry's death. But it seems that Terry's death was the precipitating event that caused these the onslaught of this, Yeah.
I think so. And then a couple of years after that, Burk Woods gave a CBS News interview for the fortieth anniversary I guess of of of his arrest, and it was very It was garbled. You could you could see the video edits, you know, in the interview, and they were just like piecing parts of different sentences together. And I talked to a lot of people after that interviewer who said that was just bizarre. They did a really terrible job with that, and I said, yeah, I thought
they did too. And what they were trying to make it sound like was that he had just confessed to the whole hog there. But but they I don't think they left even one sentence of his intact in that interview. But yeah, there was some interest after that as well.
And then I think The Ultimate Evil was out of print for a while, which I didn't realize when I published my book, But people came forward and told me that when I published Pure and they said that my book at one point was about the only thing that they could get to read on it. And so I tried to encourage everybody to find an old paperback copy of Maury's book if they could, because it was you know, what I had written would really make a lot more
sense if they had read Maury first. So but yeah, sure, fortunately back in print, how I albeit in a butchered version. Unfortunately, Well, I don't know where.
I don't where you started that tangent there, John, But you made a good point there. That cut out there for a moment. But you make a good point there about the paper paper version versus the the digital version. Yeah, because and back to this this where where I cut out when we were talking about the concerted effort situation.
You know this nonsense, This goes surrounds these topics these days, the new digital version, when the new print version from mister Zimons, the producer of the director of the Netflix documentary The Sons of Sam He Dana has been some comments in the UH chat about data over their Boddy jewels and her and her research and research team, and something that they've they've concluded over there was comparing the print version versus the digital version, and there's been a
number of revisions, including an entire chapter wiped out.
Very important stuff left out, Yeah, and crucial stuff in many cases, you know, names that are relevant. And yeah, the older a copy that people can find, the better off they will be with with Morey's work. Yeah, it's uh, it was a really unfortunate thing that happened with the latest printing of the book. So yeah, I would I would advise people to stay away from from that.
But yeah, it was.
The accident either.
Oh, I don't think.
No, it's when you're wiping out an entire chapter on the the death mass murders, which native have you ever heard of some of these murders in New York City around the gay s and m community, the gay clubs. You know, it's it's very reminiscent of a pro a smilly faced killer type of murder.
To be quite honest with you.
I actually had Nick come on. I think we talked a little bit about that. Yeah, that was yeah, well specifically, yeah, and that is interesting. Jonathan. I had a quick question for you and of course this is all speculation, but you were saying that you had a researcher that was working with you for the book, right, and then at the end he was kind of twisting some of the information or he had a different like how much of you how much of that do you think are like
disinformation agents? Like the way I look at it, like especially the mainstreams like version of like Netflix series now where people are getting like overly obsessed with like serial killers and true crime and this and that, I almost see it as a way of like it because they'll even cover things like Jeffrey Ebstein and and things like that. You're gonna have the big guys talking about Jeffrey Ebstein.
It seems like a way of just like painting the narrative and having the allowable version of like what happened, and so they can like cover up all the actual crazy shit that happened. It seemed very concerted. It seems like it's very planned, Like I think, especially with Netflix nowadays, Like that's Edward Benaes's nephew, Mark Rudolph, Right, that's uh, it's pretty fascinating, like it like he was the father of propaganda, right, It seems like all of this has
connections back to again always back to the CIA. To me, mk ultra, like all of this stuff seems pretty like connected with the CIA and things like that, covering things up and uh, you get uh, what man, what's the word that I'm looking for? You get a limited hangout, right, and so you get to talk about the bad guy, but you get to talk about it this kind of like in the three by five card of like allow.
Yes, I could not agree more and there's one person in particular who is guilty of that, and yeah, I think a lot of this is largely uh, choreographed and deliberate. I wrote the book on my own, and then what I found as I progressed into research with my former colleagues is they never can right out and said, we want you to change some of the conclusions that you came to in your book. But that was the general idea.
They started to There started to be more and more friction about particular conclusions, about particular suspects that I had made, uh. And I knew I was right because I had done the research to begin with, and then I was I was continuing the research even even as we worked together and there were a couple of suspects, in particular in a couple of situations related to Son of Sam that they really when I persisted in researching these areas, you know,
they really had a problem with it. So yeah, I think a lot of this is it's a calculated effort, unfortunately and.
Uh well financed.
Yeah, a lot of media and and government weight behind them. Yeah. Yeah.
They get nervous when you're hovering over the target.
Yes, and and their their nervousness rapidly turns into like, you know, querulous anger, and then they get really really petty about some things, you know. But I'm pretty stubborn, so I just stuck to my guns.
So Jonathan, I also briefly, briefly read just a little connection that was David Berkowitz. Was he a member of the Processed Church? But also I heard that he was a member of the Scientology Is that correct? Or where is the connection there? He was, you know, he joined the Yonkers cult. There was there's a little bit of and I think this is one of the areas that's a little confusing in Maury's book is there was a pre existing cult in Yonkers that started in about the
early to mid fifties. The Process came into the picture somewhere in the late sixties early seventies, and they sort of co opted this pre existing cult. The cult was still.
There and they still met in under our part, but it appears to be the Process that was calling a lot of the shots by that point. So David may have never been a member of the Process per se, but he definitely was a member of the local Yonker's cult and they, yeah, they got their marching orders from the Process at that point. Yeah. And then the Process moved out of Manhattan about nineteen seventy eight, or at least a wing of the Process did, and relocated to Atlanta.
Yeah, and Native if I if I can put a better perspective, just a different perspective on the idea of the idea of the Process, Like, yeah, different, is it not just thinking of it as they generally accepted this cult, I look at more of as you're pointing out the intelligent Satanists, you know, intersection of these activities. Yeah, and so this was a this was a roll up operation
in my opinion. So they're rolling up these various cults and that's why they have the four Deities as their gods, Jesus, Satan, Lucifer, and Jehovah, because that way they can basically roll up any cult into their mix.
Right, So it's a roll up, roll up operation for hood Rat.
Shet, you know, which, as John point out, they go to Atlanta and what pops off in Atlanta and the Atlanta child killings.
That's right, that's right. Yeah, the process were I feel pretty satisfied to say that that they emerged directly from m I six British Intelligence uh Tavistock Institute, that that was the out of which the process.
Yeah, all right, No, I totally agree with you.
There in Tavistock they got their hands and on sorts of activity, including the the transgendered apocalypse that was plaguing the Western world that.
Actually originated Tavistock.
Yes, recently got shut down to the UK governments like Tavistock.
You're done. So yeah, see that works out there does.
Seem to have finally been a lie and that that people were unwilling to go beyond. So yeah, which is good.
I mean as as a victim of the transpocalypse myself. The introduction tonight's show, Buff Jared Ervisa currently awaiting murder murder trial in the states of Connecticut and Massachusetts for a multi state stabbing spree where he also piston a McDonald's.
I don't know why he did that, but what he did, so it was a fun filled afternoon for all Buffalo Jared.
But he clearly, uh, you know, he's a very you know, he's a I kind of view him as in mind controlled trans this you know, mind controlled trans apocalypse situation of these killers that have been popping off. And I don't know that that's all that different from the Son of Sam situation, because you know, that's kind of the goal from my from my assessment at least, that's kind of the goal of this.
Wrap up operation of the process that.
Seems to be kind of the goal is to do these various you know, not just small chaotic events creating chaos throughout throughout the specifically America, but uh, I don't
give a shit about other countries. But the uh, you know, the uh you know, they're they're they're associated with almost every major socio political assassination murder event and for the last what fifty years, you know, so and and the origin so there is you know, I'm sure John's fully fully aware of this contententu subject of the process because you watch things like again this concerted effort, right the the you know, the propaganda, as you're pointing out with
the Netflix, there is the The Sons of Sam documentary. It says the process disbanded in nineteen seventy four, which is the official, you know, ridiculous tagline that gets you know, repeated over and over. It's clearly it's false. I mean, it's all false on its face. Yeah, there's really.
The debate doesn't exist except for the people trying to lie about it. Right, but yeah, the.
Yeah, so you have you have that, that whole debate. But you know, regardless of that debate, you know, these people can call themselves.
Whatever they want.
They're doing the same activities and time and time again, from RFK you know, to uh the Son of Sam to you know, you essentially Samsung Gerald Ford if you want to, you know, bring in the Manson situations is more he does in The Ultimate Evil, and I think he does it for great reason. There's some deep Manson process connections, so you know, and uh, there's a lot to be said for these activities and a lot of
things that have gotten ignored over the years. That have come to light in recent years is the Westchester County is a hot bed of activity with the processed church.
So you know, it's not just the Yonkers cult as you're pointing out, John that Burke, which is clearly a part of but seems to have been as you're pointing out the you know, the puppet, the puppet puppet masters of that that Yonkers cult was by the nineteen seventies was members of the process and and Burke which has pointed these people out.
That's right.
In fact, the guy he pointed out was a very very affluent lifestyle and uh, the in a very prosperous uh you know Baltimore suburb Baltimore, Maryland suburbs, which I say prospers. There's not very many Baltimore, Maryland suburbs that are are They're pretty rough around there. So you know, there's a few there's a few nice areas areasa. You know, the healthcare CEO Killer Luis Image, he grew up in
a nice area of the suburbs of Baltimore. I'd say this is the second nice area with the the former former or probably still current processed guy who he.
Could have been Kal puppets and they could have been another one.
Exactly, yeah, exactly.
Yes, this individual in Maryland, he just tells people that he was in a commune. He just say he spent the wacky sixties and early seventies in a commune. And I believe he leaves it at that.
So yeah, yeah, that's that's possibly one of the one of the greater tragedies of this entire tales. A lot of these folks that were involved in this head rat shit and around the processing around the son of Sam Yonker's cult. Yeah, they went on to die of an old age.
Yeah, yeah, they did, yeh, lived out their natural lives.
And speaking of Netflix, the popular Netflix series Stranger Things, I believe one of the producers of that show was a fellow by the name of Gadgusek. In fact, that fella's uncle was Carlton gadget Sick. Yeah, yeah, he's correct me if I'm wrong. He's an inteable remember right in the Yonkers cold scene, correct, John he.
Is alleged to have been. Yeah, he and and people should know he actually was a convicted child molester. Just hypotheticals. He actually was convicted and served a year in prison.
So yeah, yeah, what what was he bringing like fifty young boys back from Micronesia or some nonsense.
Yeah, yeah, lots of boys and he right around the I mean, you know it. The investigation into Gadget Sick and the reopening of the Son of Sam case in nineteen ninety six. You know, it's I think a lot of mind started to change even back then, because suddenly more specific information was available, and sure, people like Gadget
Sick who were allegedly connected to the case. You could suddenly see real names and faces that were connected to the case, whereas before it was something you read in a book and it was interesting, but you think, like, well, geez, can I research this or can I find out these people's names? And all of a sudden you saw more, you know, at least a few more names and faces in the case became a lot more concrete for a lot of people.
It's funny, It's it's funny. All these people are always related, Like you said, so like that Netflix, a guy that made that the Project Monarch, that connection right there with the mk Ultra stuff. Yeah, with Stranger things.
Oh yeah, big time, big time, yeah, my control yeah, project stuff. So do you know who so after now you'll you'll enjoy this fun fact about old Carlton Gadgerchek. After he left the Yonker scene. There you moved to Washington, d C. And went to go work directly for Anthony Fauci.
There you go. Did that's a big club and you ain't in it?
Yeah, that's for damn sure. It was actually Faucy he was working for at the time when he h no one had any questions of this big fat doctor dude.
Who works for the UNI.
Ah just brings back fifty young boys from some strange South Pacific island.
He's like, no, it's cool, that's cool. I'm their mentor. I'm their mentor.
You know, no one had any questions for the guy, you know what I mean, Like, it's a little ridiculous. Yeah, So that's that Fauci coverage. That dude's hooked in. Man, he's got the networked in. Yeah.
Absolutely, man. Yeah, So I'm curious, Uh, when do we know he got involved in that cult and how much of that? Because I'm almost so curious too because he he briefly mentioned uh or he did start talking about like being involved in a Satanic cult. But before his his testimony, was talking about a black dog. He was talking about a dog that was speaking to him. Do you give that any credence? Like how crazy he was?
A sky was that after the acid woar off, he started out the actual stuff that was going on.
Yeah, that was Harvey. He was a real He was the Car's dog, the Car family's dog. No, I don't. I've never seen the least evidence that that burkewitz Is is insane or or does not have a grip on reality. He was. I think you could say he was an unhappy person, you know, for various reasons, but I think that's about as far as it went. He you know,
he got involved with some very strange people. And then, as we were talking about earlier, there does seem to have been some event that prefigured all of this, possibly in the military or from his friendship with a with a mutual friend who knew both him and the cars that he knew this guy from a very young age. But so burke Wits may have been introduced to or at least you know, made aware of the cult as
early as the late sixties or early seventies. But by the time he comes back home and he's gotten involved, we know he's involved by nineteen seventy five. I think he's just an unhappy person who's in over his head and they've you know, that the cult would threaten family members and they would say, you know, we're you know, we can hurt your parents or your siblings, whatever, and so he he didn't want his father to get hurt. So he found himself doing some things that he really
didn't want to do. And for what it's worth, I think he's sincerely regretful about that. I think he is still conflicted, but I think he sincerely regrets his involvement in this and the fact that he hurt anybody. The campaign to make himself look mentally unstable was just that. I think it was a campaign on the part of the group to make his confession as the lone killer more effective and believable.
So yeah, yeah, the group in Rupert Murdoch New York Post was happy to run with its Yes.
So as far as he goes, do you think that they sort of like found him because always to me, it's like they try to find It's exactly what the FBI does now, right where they try to find kind of kid that's troubled, uh, kind of kid that like, because it sounds like he liked to start fires in his earlier years, right, he was kind of so like he kind of found a kid who's like, you know, he didn't have a good father figure. He was kind of a troubled kid. He had like emotional issues, he
got kicked out of the military. He was like he was perfect. Yeah, that's prime material right there, exactly.
Yeah. I think they did see in him the kind of person that they could use. Yah, as Maury said in the book, David was a little bit of a firebug. He was interested in that and this group they were you do find uh fires consistently year after year in the vicinity of where these people operated before and during the Son of Sam years that this this was a major preoccupation of theirs. And yeah, by the time that they're planning the Son of Sam attacks and Berkelewitz is
actually at the planning meeting. Yeah, I think they saw him as as the kind of person who was loyal enough and tight lipped enough that he could be read into the actual planning of the attacks. So so he was there when they planned it. You know, in the spring of nineteen seventy six, him and one other member of the local cult, who is an interesting figure in his own right.
But yeah, well we start, we can kind of move from there back.
That's a good point that you make, John.
But you know this, so this call, this Yonkers calls, We're calling it, you know they I've seen some comments the you know, Untremer Park was one of their meeting spaces, which interesting place on Trameyer Park with an interesting history. But this cult before burk Witz was there, I mean, it was a recruiting teenage you know. Burk Witz was recruited in his early twenties, but this was recruiting folks as early as their teenage years from my understanding, is that correct?
Yes, yes, very much back and all the way back in the early sixties. Excuse me, I think I may start getting a cold myself, but hope I can hold it off for at least a couple of hours here. But yeah, John Carr allegedly was a recruiter for the group at that point. He's fourteen fifteen years old, so
he's recruiting people that he knows from school. And in nineteen sixty one he recruits a friend of his name, Paul Rainiery, who became very important witness later in the case that Morey interviewed extensively and who was also interviewed by the police later in his life. But he he was initiated into the cult in the spring of nineteen sixty one one. This was a brutal initiation where he and other teenagers were you know, drugged, bent over in
the park, sodomized boys and girls. They heard dogs being killed behind them. They had dog blood poured over their bodies after the dogs were killed. This this is before the process ever came to the picture. This is how brutal the cult already was in the early sixties, you know. So they were, as Maury describes it. In Paul Raine Eery agreed, they were kind of a a ritual magic cult. They performed rituals associated with Alister Crowley, the Golden Dawn,
that kind of stuff. But they were preoccupied primarily with sex with teenage boys, although there also were some young girls involved in it as well. That sounds like Alistair Crowley, Yes, absolutely.
Yeah, whenever I think Crowley's definitely the butt stuff now the.
Magic okay, super magical that everything.
Yeah, So, speaking of his brutal these brutal initiations, John Paul Rainiery. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong. He he also has a story there where he apparently drugged would later in life drug Jeffrey Dahmer take him back to his apartment there in Milwaukee, wheneer he was living in Milwaukee at this time. Drugs Jeffrey Dahmer at a gay club takes him home and brutally it rapes.
In with like a candlestick or something like that.
I have heard different. He definitely, he definitely copped to knowing, you know, at least meeting and being acquainted with him. I've heard different versions of the story.
Yeah, sometimes mad, sometimes it a candlestick maybe, who knows.
Yeah, yeah, And so I don't you know about the particulars. I'm not sure how sure it was, you know, in reality, but he he did. I'm pretty well satisfied that he actually did know Dahmer. Uh, Paul was. You know, he's another one of these conflicted people. He had a very you know, I mean, he was already sort of awkward when he was initiated into the cult, and then from there, his his whole existence was just so scarred, you know
that it's it's almost just unbelievable. How anybody could even survive those years that he survived, you know, in in the cult.
Oh sure, yeah, I mean that's some brutal stuff.
For sure, just beyond it's painful to read about.
Absolutely, but nothing witness for sure. Yeah, even even the sacrifice of animals. I mean, that's got to be some traumatizing effects on the psyche.
I think so.
Yeah.
He mentioned that in particular in one of his interviews with Maury. He said, you know, I didn't see it, but I can still hear those dogs yelping and howling behind me the night that they initiated me. So it was, Yeah, it was a lifelong, you know, nightmarish memory.
I imagine.
So the Mormons forced me to chop off some chickens heads on a Mormon pioneer camping trip and that went on.
That's still traumatizing.
Yeah, I can only imagine it's and stuff like that does have a lingering effect. No matter I don't care how much counseling you have or how much medication you can take. Here, there are gonna be times where you're just sitting around, not thinking about anything in particular, and those things are gonna come back to you.
It's yeah, and it's yeah, for sure, I said someone Jess. But obviously yeah, the sacrif I mean kind of a chicken said that's dinner. But obviously witnessing the sacrifice of all these dogs, which seems to be the m of these cults, right like, whatever it is they're up to, there is a trail of dead dog as that goes around.
With this there is, and with these people in particular, the German shepherds seem to have been really significant to their I don't know what you would call it doctrine or theology or whatever, but there were always German shepherds even before the process, which is interesting because we can trace the presence of German shepherd's in that neighborhood, in the car Berkelwitz neighborhood, all the way back to nineteen twenty five when a man who lived at twenty two
Wicker Street, which figures prominently in the case that's right around the corner from the cars and just below the building that Berkelewitz lived in, he had a vicious German shepherd that got loose and attacked a female pedestrian. That house, twenty two Wicker is right alongside the aqueduct path that leads to hunter Meyer Park. So find the presence of these kinds of dogs, in particular, going all the way
back well a century. Now, this was in March of nineteen twenty five, So something odd was happening in that neighborhood for for a long time. Yeah.
So that's and that's kind of one of the key tenants of your book. Correct, is this cold activity does date back in Yonkers with a similar similar, similar racialistic activities like you're pointing out with the dead dogs, Yeah, back to the nineteen twenties.
Yes, yes, that's right. The odd little story.
Is a long span, it really is.
And I ran up on that story almost by accident. I was looking for something else entirely, but I kept finding odd incidents in that neighborhood and I thought, well, what, you know, what was happening here and what was the significance of it? And I don't you know, there's still a lot of questions to be answered, but I think I found enough circumstantial evidence to indicate that there was cult activity there from a pretty early date.
Yeah.
Now, Jonathan, we had somebody in the We had somebody in the chat asking about your book. Do you want to do a quick plug her name. She has a true crime podcast. Actually, uh, I'd love to hook you guys up after this. She has a pretty, uh, pretty good little following there. I think that would be awesome. But yeah, here's the book, and Jonathan, if you want to just do a quick little plug. Sorry, yeah, this is your show, JJ.
But no knock it out.
In fact, I sent a private message to put that in your rumble chat the Lincoln. I posted it here, but I'd realized it was in your your rumble chat that came from Now go ahead, John, sure.
Yeah, it's it's mainly about the cult prior to Burkelewitz, although I do touch on Berklewitz and the Son of Sam murders and even the aftermath there to some extent, But it's it's mainly about the history of the cult prior to Berkowitz, and I just tried to make it as uh as real and solid as I could for the reader, and use as many real names and as many real, you know, verified incidents from newspapers or research that I conducted with family members or friends of suspects
and victims as I possibly could find. So it's about forty five pages long, and uh, it's just I intended it just as a kind of supplement to Maury's book. Awesome, So thank you guys. I appreciate it.
Yeah, for sure.
And Desert Rains asking is there another place to purchase this besides Amazon?
I don't have any hard copies now unfortunately, But and I believe does it rain follow me on on x or Twitter? So I'd be happy If she can't get it via Kindle. I could just send her the text, you know, I could just send it as a as a Google share thing, but I'd be happy to do that if she If she can't read it electronically.
There you go, does it ring? Yes, she's a prolific Twitter user. We definitely we communicate in there.
Quite a bit.
So yeah, I'm glad to all.
Connect on there for sure. Okay, there she goes, Yep the no.
So I think that's an interesting You bring up an interesting perspective. Have this this the soup in which this
later Yonkers processed church cult movement grow into. And I think one of the interesting perspective, at least to me, is, you know, relative to these topics and the intelligence operations, et cetera, is that the deep state nature of these satanic cults specifically, you know, not just a keynote, but you know, specifically the processed church relative tonight's conversation, you know.
And one of the one of the interesting law enforcement characters you find there are Yonkers running the police department and in the time frame you're talking about, in fact, he was a sergeant in the Detective Bureau. And Yonkers was none of the James Combey's grandfather, William Comeey. Yeah, and I often wonder, you know, the characters like James Comey do they he would William Combey would later retire as the head of the Ankers PD.
He was a commissioner well New York in general, it's kind of like it's old mafia families, Like if you want to be a somebody in New York, your grandfather had to be a somebody in New York, right exactly. It really is, that's for sure.
That's a Now, that's a great way to put it. That is how it goes. Yeah.
So and when I look at the people like Kobe, I'm like, well, yeah, again, you know, like you said, he's born, he's born into these positions. So he's inheriting these these roles and I think it's interesting that the key role he plays. You know, he was deemed Republican for many years. It's just that's Tom Fuller, you know, Uni Party nonsense. But what he really was was the
clon bag man. Even though George Bush was appointing him to various positions within the Department the Justice, the roles he was, he was coming in for private industry to bury a Clinton situation. For example, his first one was he was assigned by George Bush to investigate Bill Clinton's pardon of a fellow by the name of Mark Rich Bill Clinton. One of his out the door pardons was a guy who was the number one man on the or number he was on the FBI's most wanted list.
I think he was number maybe number two. He was a George Soros type character name named Mark Rich. He hadn't even been convicted of anything to be pardoned from. He was simply charged in on an FBI's wanted list and Clinton pardoned him. So there was a lot of I still don't think it's legal, but they brought Comey and you know, do one of these numbers and say it was legal. So that was his first job as far as being the Clintons bagman. So I find it
interesting he's from Westchester County. There in Westchester County, you know, that's where they set up shot by these He has a lot of weird stuff. I'm not I'm not advocating for Westchester County to be you know, nuclear bomb or anything. I'm just saying there's a lot of weird shit that goes on in Westchester County. A lot of accults, you know, the Rockefeller Estates.
There are a lot of a lot of.
Old money stuff going on there. The Kennedy's for example, you know RFK when he was murdered by the process, you know, ostensibly murdered by the process, as all the legends go, and all the evidence seems to suggest, you know, sir Hanster on attending process uh you know, uh sex sex rituals apparently as well, according to some investigative reports. But nonetheless RFK, senator from New York at the time, lived in Westchester County.
But don't worry, the government investigated itself and found that they were just he like.
Guys, we're not guilty, all right.
I just think, you know, I think that you know, there's some of these elements, so you know, One of the other elements I think that comes of mind is the seemingly deep connections between the upper echelon of the national security state of America and uh, you know, the Nazis that took over forty seven and uh you know via the National Security Act, the you know, deeply connected folks who were making those national security decisions, stamping things
national security, which I think takes like three signatures, you know, folks like a Wall or Henry Kissinger, you know, his close connections with this processed Church activity there out of out of Westchester County and his underling Brince Gocroft, who would employ as an assistant and apparently a speech writer, a leader in the neo processed Church. A fellow by the name of J. J. Bryn, real creepy son of a bitch, operated a number of art galleries, very spooky.
He was involved doing some really weird, malicious stuff. I believe in Lebanon he got picked up doing some spook stuff. But anyhow, he was a he was a prominent leader in this neo process movement. Again, right hand man to Kenry Kissinger's right hand man after and he was this guy was after Kissinger Scowcroft was.
A national security advisor to numerous.
Presidents, So we're talking about two dudes who are on a shortlist of folks stamping things. National security seemed to be deeply interrelated with the processed Church, so it's not just coming.
I think the influence does extend all the way up the ladder. Unfortunately, there are people in positions of huge power who really are into this stuff and they're serious about.
It, right right, It seems that way, right, And that's that was kind of seems like that was kind of Maury's stuff. So I don't want to go too far into the whole Mory's notes to Bacle, I mean, why we do want to discuss it somewhere here with you. But how far have you gotten into some of those files and releases, the files of of the quote unquote Terry files, the the what I just like to call the limited Hangout, but the Terry files that were released.
The I have, I'm pretty familiar with them by now, and there was a point where I was I've stayed up for about three days reading through all of them, and then that slept for a little while and went through them again. But yeah, there's a wealth of stuff in there, and it confirms not only some of the things Maury said over the years, most of what he said in fact, but it also confirmed large parts of what I was saying, what I suspected, what I concluded
via my own research. So the files definitely were helpful. I mean they named.
Those pseudonyms right, well, yeah.
We only knew them as pseudonyms. Or in fact, there were some people that he he didn't know about at all when he wrote the original book that we know about now, and he, you know, by nineteen ninety seven, he had typed up what we call the Flipper List of witnesses, meaning people that he thought were or could be flipp or should be you know, by the police who could offer enough evidence to conclusively solve the case.
And he typed up a list of I don't know, at least a couple of dozen people, but uh.
One of which was a beam son.
Right, A Beam had an aide who was deeply involved in this stuff.
Yeah, well, I believe one of his son was on that same list of anom miss taking.
I believe it is an ed Beam.
Maybe I'm trying to think if if the sun I know of the two aides and one of them was was a close aid. I would have to go back and see if the sun was on there.
That brings you to part for sure, that brings you to my next point. That brings you to the next point.
If I just may make this point, then once again, if the mayor's son is in the cult and the New York City's they're not going to investigate the mayor and his son or like the mayor's son's not gonna you know what I mean, Like that's I think that's the nature of people want to say there was investigations and these things were there.
I mean, there's a lot of things to point too that there wasn't.
But I'm just saying, like when you take into that factor, like they're not gonna do shit if the mayor sons involved in these kinds of activities or the mayor's aides.
Right when it extended that far, there was no way on it because we know that just before Burkelewitz's arrest they were searching for the yellow VW that had been seen at the last attack, right moment burkele Witz's arrest, at all that stuff about the yellow v W, the sketches of what are obviously different suspects. You know, all of that just goes completely out the window and all of a sudden, it's just this one guy. So, yeah,
the case, they never even made a case. They just said this is the guy, and he agreed that he was the guy, and that was the end of it. They never made any sort of error type case against David Berkowitz at all. And I think a lot of people probably don't realize that. They assumed that he went to trial. He didn't. He just confessed.
That's it.
That's the end of it.
Yeah, And and they and he had his like a joint hearing of three three all three counties judges came into one one room and they all just convicted him at once.
Yes, it's very unheard of American jurisprudence. Was Yeah.
Another character that may may factor in this, this powerful network that has put a lid on these things. Felt you're gonna be familiar with their Nate Roy Kohne.
Yeah, I did.
Yeah, he made the list. He's on He's on Terry's list as being a member of this cult. Something that's when he really come to light in recent years when Terry's files because in public, you know, through a very varying measures in which to keep those away from the public that you know, have been going on since twenty sixteen. It appears they include folks like James Franco, Hollywood actor and alleged rapists of young young women, James Franco, the uh you know. But so I think there's a lot
of these characters that have factored into that. But yeah, on these on these notes. So yeah, there, John, It seems to me I have a list of I got, I got, I got a list of files circa August I think of twenty twenty three, Yeah, twenty twenty three. Comparing those files to things like this website, I'm like, well, there's something going on here, you know. I mean, there's
an effort speaking to this concerted effort. I'm like, well, when you start comparing some of the stuff, the stuff that I was sent versus the information on this now infamous website, the people versus David Berkowitz, which I believe populated around that same time.
It did, Yeah, I think, uh, you know, there there are very relevant things on that website, including the flipper list, which I find very significant, was a lot of help in confirming my own.
We pull up that list real quick while you're talking about in that member which section.
It's Uh, it'll be in the newly added documents, and it'll be there's pretty far down the index page. There is a more Tarry page. Uh, and it's all in capitals.
Let's see mine in the right department.
Yeah, I think so, maybe just a little bit further down. Yeah, let's say, yeah, newly updated more Arry investigation files page on December sixteenth of yeah, twenty twenty three. And I believe it's going to be to the side there. Yeah, that just below that right there. Moritary's list of individuals alleged to be Son of Sam cult members and associates. Yeah,
that's a very helpful list. They'll show people a lot of the names that they've always wondered about and explained, you know, at least some of their significance in relation not just to the Son of Sam crimes, but to their their long term membership in the cult. The first two names on that list are Ace Brown and Sue Conway made it. Yeah, yeah, there there's Ace definitely was number one, but Sue would be a close second. I've researched her for a number of years and Uh, it
only got more sordid and more interesting. She was, Uh, well, I don't want to spoil it, but I there's a lot about her in my booklet that's uh that I think people will find interesting.
Yeah, so this is these are these are some relevant points, just the great stuff for saying here, John, So these documents, I have a different list of documents, right then what's on that website? Like I've done an all inclusive thing, but like even the letters from Burkowitz, I have a different list of letters from Burke Wooz. And like you said, you stayed up and read all these things when you started looking at these files, I did the same thing.
Yeah I haven't. I haven't read them in about a year, you know, you know, at least an overview. But I mean I have my pretty good memory.
I could tell you what's in this files, and I can tell you what what just look at that website. Not only dan Over that Roddy Jewles has pointed out the folks on that website that are listed this process church members, numerous numerous parties are misidentified. Whether or not that's intentional or not, I'm leaning towards it probably is.
But the photos, Yeah, are are ye. I'm trying to think of one example. There was there's a sketch of a guy named Jeff, and then there's somebody else who is also identified as Jeff, but they're two different people. And I can't remember who the guy who's misidentified is.
But yeah, yes, some of that, Yeah, sure, I know one of them is Robert de Grimston's brother. They haven't listened Robert de Grimston even though it's his brother. Yeah, so my guess my question is.
His name is misspelled. I don't know if that was intentional or just you know that that part could have been an honest mistake, but you never know.
Yeah, So have you ever seen any documents with so those are those are the documents that you've seen? It just the folks off the people versus David Berkowitz, and that.
Is part of it. Yeah, what they have posted is part of it. There are other things various, you know more. He wrote a lot of things down behind in later years. A lot of is difficult to read. But there's a lot of that sort of stuff too.
I just think it's weird.
So you have these different like so that these are the Terry files right on this website right, we're just looking at and I have a different set and it seems like there was even maybe a third different set of stuff that was sent out. It just seems like there was this again, back to these concerted efforts, this misinformation disinformation campaign.
I don't know what the ing game is to do this, but it seems like this was a concerted effort.
To send varying you know, maybe maybe again the list of folks that I have in mind, or we can go over to the future show of you like it's different than what's on that website. I just wanted to I wanted to kind of touch your ideas on what you thought of what's going on here, Like what do you think is going on with these the the shifting nature of this, So Maury Terry dies and you know, his files are suddenly this weird, contentious matter and they're again now that there's varying.
Releases of these, it's like it feels like a WikiLeaks release, you know.
I mean, like they're suddenly just dropping these random tranches of files on folks, and they're different files. I'm not saying WikiLeaks sends out different files. I'm just saying these weird drops of these files, Just why wouldn't it all be at once, Why wouldn't it be like Ed Sanders in the library that he he donated his up to Princeton Library. I've seen to it's you know, it's not well, very well organized, but at least it's kind of collected in one one spot, right and available.
Yeah, I'd be curious to see what the second batch looks like because I don't know if I've seen any of that at all. But that's interesting. The people more identified there in the Flipper list, I know, just from my own research and from talking to various folks who knew about Morey's research at the.
Time, that.
Those folks definitely were involved. But those are like firstier level of of the you know, the street level members of of the cult. Uh so, so those folks definitely were involved. We're talking about the Conways, the John Defrinza's, the Sperazas, those folks that they definitely were involved. But but I'd be curious to see this additional batch of stuff because I don't I don't know if I've seen any of that.
Interesting.
Yeah, she was, Yeah, and of course Tiny Lentini was involved.
Yeah, so Lentini's not even on the list that I'm talking about the whole really different.
That may be a shorter list, was it sort of did it say something about like being a working list of of the twenty two disciples maybe was it a list like that?
I think so, Yeah, yeah, that may have been.
And I think that was just a working list at one time. I'm not sure what what the day that was, but more exisiting later. Yeah, but he did get a working list that I think Howard wise he added and and handwriting at the bottom. And he was a friend of Burkelewitz. Is he He definitely was like associated with the cult, but burklewitoz City wasn't a member. But yeah, I think the first list had maybe a couple dozen people on it or else. Yeah.
Yeah, So Jonathan, how active is this cult still ongoing? Is this called kind of dright up at this point? And we kind of know that like kind of like what you said earlier, JJ, It's like, I don't I don't remember the metaphor you used, but it's kind of like how they say the Illuminati ended in like seventeen eighty five, Well we know it didn't, right, So it's
so if if this cult is still ongoing. Is is Burkelewood's actually naming names at this point, I'm curious, like, how much money do we have to put in his commissary to get him on the show.
Do you think.
I don't know? He he did name names to Maury when this case was reopened, you know, in nineteen ninety six to ninety seven, he did, he he, he, and he signed off on, you know, a longer list, which is also been posted to the People Versus Berkowitz page. Since then, I believe he has been very reluctant to talk about the case in general. He I think the information we have in Maury's files is probably as close as we're going to get to saying Okay, this is
definitely who is involved. I'm sure other people were involved who have not been named, who we can't identify, unfortunately, probably at this point. But but this this is a pretty good guidebook here, just the flipper list, because I can't tell you how many dozens of awkward phone calls I've made, emails, I've scent sometimes I've sent letters even in the mail when I couldn't find any other way to get in touch with somebody, And I have actually
gotten people to contact me back via snail mail. But what morey typed out here in this list, these were the core people who were involved. Uh, and they you know, if you find people who knew them, they a lot of times people won't talk a lot of times people are still uncomfortable about it, regardless.
Of you know, the passage, right, it's kind of mob.
Is. Yeah, but sometimes you run up on somebody and you just catch them in the right mood and they tell you some some pretty good stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah, yes, So according to this uh this this this blurb here regarding this quintin bieber Fella, It's like, yeah, Jane and Mansfield was seen at entre Myer Park rituals.
Yeah, she wasn't. In fact, Paul Raine Eery said he met her there in that she participated in one of their occult sex rituals her.
Uh.
I don't know if they were actually married or not, but her manager and he was her boyfriend anyway, but possibly they were married. I'm a little fuzzy on if they were common law or if they were legally married. But was a fellow named Matt Simber who was from Younkers and growing up there, going to high school there. Kind of a shady character. He directed a really strange movie later in life called The Witch Who Came from the Sea, which is a very disturbing, bizarre movie about
child sexual abuse. Yeah. He he was around that scene too, Quentin Biever was. Yeah, he was part of that little actors troupe, the Saint Mary's Players, and Berkowitz recalled him as somebody who was also associated with the cult, in particular it's odd sex practices and sex parties.
Yeah.
Yeah, So I think to answer your question writ some contexts and to your questionnaire, not only is this stuff going on, but you know, again speaking to to why or not Burke Whit's name, folks, Yeah, I mean also about Burka Witz and Terry, from what I've seen throughout their correspondence is they had a very close relations and looking at some of their letters back and forth from each other in Terry's files for many years, you know,
talking all sorts of subjects from sports to life. But nonetheless, he definitely seemed to trust Terry and again pointed, you know a lot of stuff Terry investigating himself from my understanding, but Burke Wits would confirm. But nonetheless he has he
has provided information. But you know, speaking again to this, is this stuff going on while Jane Mansfield's daughter is a very prominent actress in Hollywood still today, so or at least the New York side of Hollywood, right, I believe one of the Law and Order shows.
That's right.
Yeah, So you know you have the offsprings of these folks.
And again speaking of another offspring that's famous in this kind of processed church narrative, one Terry Melcher of the Beach Boys fame. He you know, he wrote one of their famous songs from the Tom Cruise Bartending film from the eighties, cocktail Kocomo, written by Terry Melcher, son of Doris Day who Doris Days all involved in this kind
of Hollywood process angles. So it was Terry Melcher who who was living there at the uh the Tate Polanski home prior to uh, you know Tate Pilansky movieon and you know, New New and was friends with Charles Manson.
So I didn't we You and I were talking about it a little bit before we even got started recording about my crazy father, and I wonder sometimes if he had some weird he must have had some weird CIA connections or MK ultra connections. But he was good friends with one of the beach boys. I don't remember which one, the bad one, whichever the bad one was, because I know that he did Heroin with him. Uh and my my father was a crazy heroin addict.
But also uh so he was living in Los Angeles in the late sixties.
M hm, well yes, yeah, so I think most of the time he lived near lom Poke, but he Santa Barbara, yeah, that area, but he went everyone everywhere from the Bay area, so like San Francisco, because they know he knew Osley.
Uh.
He was getting acid from like straight from the source, and then he was taking it back to seventh.
Right there, right, yeah, exactly LSD.
I know my mom met him. I know my mom met uh Charles Manson as well. We talked a little bit about that earlier. That Charles Manson was a friend of my father. My father was his drug dealer.
Uh and uh that's wild.
Yeah, there's weird connections all through out there.
Yeah, they had a little boy he died, and I think, yeah, they.
All hung out at a place they called the House of the Rising Sun. Actually they had a house.
They really all did.
And I don't know if that if that's where if they named it after the song, or the song was named after there, but the animals, I don't remember, dude, I don't any of this. I wish my dad was so alive. Actually he died in two thousand and seven.
The animals.
Interesting stuff.
Your father passed in two thousand and seven, walked. Yeah, so you were, you were you close.
With the man, as close as you can be with a heroin addict.
He was, you know, he sound like he had some some trouble past with him with some drug his drug addictions.
So yeah, yeah, exactly, you hear from him.
Yeah, he was.
He was an interesting guy, you know, he was uh yeah, he was a nice guy, generous guy, but also could be prone to extreme violence. Like I just remember stories. Uh some dude called my mom fat or something in the middle of the store and my dad beat him half to death with like a blackjack and then they had to run out of the store. You know, just you know, wild stories like that. But he never well, okay, I won't say he never got caught, because he did.
He was in and out of prison sometimes. Yeah, he definitely did some time and interesting stuff. The kidnapped real JJ yeah, people have been uh comping about you were looking ten years younger and maybe you're of himself.
Well that's pretty good, the breadless wonder the Uh yeah, no, that's that's pretty well. So how do you think your father got associated with some of these activities? Was it through the drug drug use?
It had dude, No, he wasn't a biker, dude, he was a beanner. He was an interesting guy. Uh, you know, I'm trying to think of anything that really could have got him connected. I know that when he was in prison, they made him the head of the Brown Beret was like a prison gang. They put him in charge of some things like that he didn't necessarily want to be. But yeah, I don't I don't really know actually how
he really got connected. It must have just been through drugs and uh yeah, I don't know enough about him honestly, Like, I don't know that side of him. I could try. I've been trying to get my mom on the show for years because.
Start asking her. Start in segrogator, tell me what you know, give me a name. No, that's that's a while. That's a wild tale though. Man. That's yeah.
I appreciate your sharing that for sure, because I think that's an interesting perspective you bring up with that tale because a lot one of the things I think it's in John. John can probably speak to this from police feel free interjected at anytime, John, the point where everyone wants to say, like, how did Jorey Burke Wwitz get associated with these these prominent doctors and lawyers and you know socialites in this cult movement and Yonkers?
What's It's the drug movements. It's the drug culture.
You much like your father probably associated with Dennis Wilson. They probably were ad a heroin drug. I mean, no disrespective your your father, but I me saying like, this is how these things happen. You're at a heroin drug then you're like, oh, ship, are you a beach boy? Like yeah, let's do some fucking everyone together.
Yeah, I mean more complicated. I don't think that exactly.
So, I I think it's a lot of it involved him going to pick up drugs somewhere or holding drugs and then somebody would come to him and they would take the drugs. A lot of it revolved around that.
Yeah, Yeah, I think that's I mean, I think that's a lot of how these interactions and you know, associations do occur.
It is the cult scene, it's the drug scene. It's a little bit of both. Maybe.
You know, sometimes I wonder, you know, another infamous tale about Berkowitz, Nate, you might you'll you'll appreciate this one, at least my thoughts on I think you'll appreciate another infamous tale. John is he hung out at Studio fifty four. Correct, that's one of the uh I believe.
Oh yeah, and he of course he went to parties at Roy Cohen's place and right the various yachts and all sorts of stuff. Yeah, he saw probably more of the world that way than he would have been able to see otherwise.
You know, Yeah, for sure, And that's a good point. Yeah, for sure. He definitely it was culture.
He was a cultured man that David Burkowitz with the you know, I often I often wonder, you know, and I just have some ridiculous the thoughts of my brain all here.
You know. It's you know, David Burke.
Wits associated with Roy Cone, Donald Trump knew Roy Cone, Donald Trump's Studio fifty four, David Burke Wood's the Sudio fifty four, Michael Jackson's the Studio fifty four around the same time.
Are Michael Jackson, David Burke Whitz, and Donald Trump.
Moon walking their way around the dance floor of Studio fifty four there in the mid to late seventies.
Because it seems like they're all hanging out there together.
Yeah, I think it was probably and Andrew Crispo, the crazy there and yeah.
Yeah, that's the that's the dude that Zeeman edited out of the book, The The Digital Version of the Ultimate Evil.
He said, no more Crisp bo Yes, I mean that's it's high society Brooke, which is uh is hob nobbin with it.
Really was, Yeah, I mean he was uh uh. He had and I believe accurate recollections and a lot of this stuff, just like when rainy Ere he remembered, Oh yeah, Jane Mansfield was at one of these sex parties that the cult had. I do think these are our accurate recollections, because that's what these people get up to in their downtime.
You know, it's just you know, you go to crazy parties and you know you're you're from Hollywood or you're a musician, and you meet local people and stuff just happens.
You know, so yeah, yeah, interesting strange culture of that drug culture does seem to make some odd some odd bedfellows at times. Yes, yeah, especially within the Satanists kind of drug culture network.
You know, not just New York City. You know, the whole The Ultimate Evil popped off in North Dakota as well, part of the story storyline there.
So it's a Frans national pipeline of this kind of satanic drug activity. John Carr specifically there and mine not in North Dakota. I've been to my not there's an Air Force base there, and you know, I was a MP in the Air Force for for for many years. This is this is probably halfway through my career. So maybe around twenty eleven or so, I was up there from headquarters. We were opening up a new union on
the base there. But so you know, I'm I'm in an environment where I should feel comfortable in my Air Force basement, air Force MP, I should shouldn't find this place to be a very peculiar spot.
I'm like that place as creepy as fuck.
And you know, oh yeah, and I don't want to be there one minute longer than I had to be there on like a three day trip. I think I got to go back to a second time for like an I only say, like a day you know, when I was watching I mean, for what it is that Son of Sam Sons of Sam documentary on Netflix, you know, is an interesting you know perspective to see how they're framing this kind of cover up situation is what I
have to call the processed Church cover upper movement. But the you know, there's some interesting details to discern from there as well. So I mean, I don't I don't really don't tell people to you know, just roll, you know, don't just throw it out, you know, you know, without you know, checking it out. Yeah, don't don't throw out
the baby with the bathtub situation, you know. But what more, Maury's producer friend that went up there and investigated some of Maury's claims there in the Ultimate Evele and verified these claims, you know, as he speaks about in the documentary.
Yeah.
He I laughed when he talked about how creepy it was there. I'm like, do ain't lying creepy town?
It sounds interesting, you know. I talked to Glenn Geatson just briefly a few years ago, the deputy who actually pulled John Carr up off the side of the road that time, after he was pushed out of the van and his money was stolen. And you know, that marked the sort of the beginning of John's gradual breakdown, you know, the last whatever year and a half of his life,
two years whatever it was. And he uh, and he appeared just briefly in the in the Netflix documentary, but he said, you know, the town was just lousy with a cult activity. He said, it was all over the place. He responded to various calls, you know, across town and that it you know, there was always something like that going on somewhere, he said.
So, yeah, yeah, I mean I was stationed a very similar town in Montana, Great Balls, Montana and quite as creepy, but still kind of creepy. And looking back, I think I see a very similar environment, you know, that was that was a very young man at the time. I was drinking every day, I was off so off work, so I really wasn't paying attention to these kind of details back then.
But I didn't counter.
While I was living there, I did come face to face with a cannibalistic child, you know, diddling child murderer who apparently was serving up, you know, human human burgers there at the local party's fellow the name of Nathaniel Barr Jonah. He was arrested and later murdered in a Montana prison. But he was clearly part of a satanic pedophilic cult network while I was living there in Great Falls. So, I mean, again, very similar environment to mine. Not the
United States Air Force is basically the reason. But why both of these cities exist, I weren't for the air force, bass that is the economy, So very strange kind of correlations there between the two places. But yeah, might not super creepy. So you got to talk to the sheriff phone that one of the deputies that investigated him.
Oh yeah, yeah, And he was a very nice man, very humble, you know, willing to talk about it just you know, straight away. And uh he he had he said that that there was consistent cult activity in and around mind not at the time.
And and.
Yeah, I differ from what you read in in Maury's book, it's there. There definitely was something going on out there. I've always been curious exactly how the relationship was formed between the North Dakota Cult and the Yonkers cult.
It may have been that's a great question. I've wandered the same. Yeah, yeah, no, I go ahead, interrupted her.
I just I know it's one of the things that I've long wondered, Like, yeah, again, I asked some ideas, but I would like to hear to hear your thoughts.
I would I would just assume that logically it had something to do with John Carr's drug connections, you know, but it may have even gone back further than that. But I'd love to see somebody research that subject because it's it's it's right for research. A lot of work could be done on that, establishing the connection between Mine Not and Yonkers.
Yeah, and I'm not suggesting you write a subsequent book to to to your son of sam that, but by all means, it sounds like you might be the perfect man for the mission. I think there would be there would be an addict it would be an adequate study. Is the submerged history of the mine Not North's Scota Coult.
Oh yeah, yeah.
If I ever run across any information, I'd love to get into it, because this is uh. I live for this essentially now, It's central to everything I do. I'm I am working on another book and that may figure into it, you know, at some point if I can just kind of get my foot into the into the research door there. But uh, but I am working on something else and hopefully it's uh, i'll at least have a first draft ready in another four months or so. I'm shooting four.
You give us a little sneak peak about what second?
Oh sure, yeah, it Nate.
It's just more of the same, just just in greater detail because people have asked me, well, what about this person or this event or whatever. So I'm just trying to cram it all in there and it'll at least be like a couple of hundred pages and maybe even more than that. So you know, the research is ongoing, so I'm just going to keep adding to it as as I go. And it looks like it's going to
turn into a pretty big book before it's finished. So I'll just bear with me because I'm I'm a really slow workers, but I'm getting there.
Hey, no worries, John, You're welcome back anytime to discuss your future book as well, or more of these discussions.
I don't want to.
I appreciate your time tonight. I want to keep it too long here and I'll definitely give you both, you gents, some closing thoughts after we get things.
Wrapped up here about an hour and a half.
But I just wanted to share with you my thoughts on mine not North Dakota, and regarding the submerged history and how it may figure into the overall narrative. So the city is known as the Magic City, so it almost has some some occult, you know, connotations to its name.
It was founded by Stephen myn know or might not.
It's one of their prominent Brahmin you know, Brahmin class of you know, balls than the Boston blue blood families, one of them there out of Brookline, a wealthy suburb. They're very interrelated and intermarried with the Weld family. In fact, Tuesday Weld, you famember with the actress Tuesday Well. Is that a name either of you gents have ever heard of before?
Oh?
Yeah, So what you know, as far as you're understanding, John, is you know, do you understand she's a she's deeply ingrained in the occult activities of Hollywood, And you.
Know, I honestly didn't know that about her. But that gives me something else to research tomorrow, because oh, Okay, I'm on top of this all the time, so that that's a whole new area for me. But I look forward to finding out about it.
So Tuesday Weld we talked about Jane Mansfield and being president of Ltremer Park Rituals, so she was Anton LeVay dedicated his Satanic Bible to one of the individuals there was Jane Mansfield, who was a member of the Church of Satan. Then another individual in that same dedication was Tuesday World, and then I teen seventy two.
Book Modern Day Witchcraft.
Maybe I can send you the link later, John and put it in the show notes the name of the books Escaping Me. But Anton LeVay's interviewed in this obscure book in the seventies and he says the reason why he dedicated it to Tuesday Weld is because she's part of the Rituals, so implying that she's deeply involved in occult activity. Other individuals with later pegers being this quote unquote Illuminati hypriesis folks like Adam go Rightly, an author
who did in extensive coverage of the Manson family. In fact, I highly recommend his book The Shadow over Santa Susana, which he kind of picked up a lot of I don't know if he knew I don't know if he ever met ed Sanders. He definitely picked up a lot of the Sanders narrative from the family and ran with some of those, you know, evolution of some of those ideas and concepts.
Great book, great analysis.
He would later write a book about you know, write some blogs about Tuesday Weld and some magazine articles. I believe anyhow, she seems very ingrained within this cult rich network and whatnot. She's allegedly deeply tied to the whole Manson situation. But her great grandfather was Stephen my not Wild who would have been second cousins, I believe, with the fella who who started Mine, not North Dakota. So I'm just saying, well, amongst these kind of up right,
we talked about the quote unquote elite society of Westchester County. Well, if we want to talk about other elite societies the Westchester County of Boston, as these Boston Brahmins, the quote unquote blue bloods, these Brookline families, like the Welds, like the mine Nots, and here we go. Here we have an intersection of the world. Family who has a lengthy history dating back to the Old World. They claim to be descendants from the ancient kings of Tara from from Ireland,
so they have a long occult history. You know, numerous publications citing this over the years. There's another So you have this family who again his cousins with the guy who founded mine, not North Dakota. I don't think these subjects are that far off.
No, no, And there seems to be a similar pattern, like you said, lots of places with I think, well, like in Yonkers. Arguably the cult activity goes all the way back to the time of Jeez, what's his name? His name completely escapes me now, the guy who originally lived on the ground Parkore but Tilda Tilden, Yeah, the the failed presidential candidate.
Yeah he yeah, well he technically won. Technically he won. It was the Great Compromise of eighteen seventy seven.
But yeah, yeah, I just completely blanked on his name there. But yeah, I would argue that that even in his day, there there were some odd things going on. I've run across one or two vague newspaper headlines that made it sound like some odd things were happening in the vicinity of his property.
But but yeah, a good point.
That's a good point in perhaps grasps for future conversation, because one thing I'm deeply interested in is the mounds, these ancient architectural victual sites of America, and that property as a mound site property. So that's a good point you bring up, John, we talk about the nineteen twenties, this shit goes back even further.
It seems like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no till that Tilda's Till is an interesting character.
Yeah for sure, Yeah, yeah, I want to I want to read more about him. It's somewhere I have bookmarked or screenshoted a couple of those headlines that I was referring to just a minute ago. But there were there were things that they were just odd enough that you think, you know, all the way back then, something is is already happening on this property that's not wholesome.
You know it, right? Yeah, it got some nefarious ship. You got some nefarious ship popping off there.
Yeah, and again Antremyer deeply politically politically connected. His I'm not andre My Tilden. His uh, his mentor was Martin van Buren. President Martin van Buren. He was part of the Tammany Hall network and his father, Tilden's father was a he's a carpet bagger. They were, they were involved in financing the UH where they were involved in the Confederate operations. Ant Myer believe his father was involved in
financing the Confederacy. So a lot of these weird UH Southern influences there than that Westchester TerraMar Park tilled in the state situation.
Well, you know, and I'll just this part I'll make really brief. But in the town where I grew up in northwest Alabama, there was a group of occultists, and I never knew exactly how serious they were because I never interacted with him. But they met on the grounds of an old, burned out plantation home out in the country. The home itself had burned down, but these brick columns all around the the porch had survived, and they met
and did rituals every Friday night. In fact, I was invited at one point by years younger than me, But this stuff was by when this happened, I was about sixteen the first time I heard about it. But she said that they used copies of an necronomicon and that
they would try to conjure demons from this. By the mid nineties, they were hanging from the trees out there, these little they were like mobiles that you hang over a baby's crib, but they had they were made out of like pieces of stained glass, and they had a cult symbols etched into them, and they were hanging from the trees out in the country. And a newspaper photographer actually went out there and photographed a couple of them.
And so I had something even locally like this going on, and I knew at least a couple of people who were involved to different extents. The girl who invited me was sort of a casual participant. There was a guy, yea, and the guy was an acid head. He was really seriously into it, and he gradually started to have sort of a John Carr type breakdown.
So, yeah, interesting.
It has taken root in a lot of places.
Yeah, that's uh, yeah, that's fascinating.
I actually I encountered a homicidal vampire Colton, Rural, Kentucky when I was seventeen, So this stuff does it. It's spread long, long and far, even in the Bible Belt states like Alabama and uh Murray, Kentucky.
Yes, absolutely, Hey, Kentucky is it's it's pretty some of the remote areas they're pretty creepy. Arkansas to Arkansas is another place.
Arkansas.
Yeah, you got the West Memphis three situation there. That was a good good example that that that, you know, some some crowley ism going on there in Arkansas. Huh yeah, some eight year old boys. I think that was his favorite croleys for magical rituals and whatnot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think people still, you know, they don't realize how perverse this stuff actually was. Anybody who doubts that Crowley, I mean, if they think he was just this harmless crank or eccentric or whatever, they should read about him to see just how disgusting he and his practices really were. You know.
Yeah, no, no limits to the debauchery, that's for sure. No especially sorry man, No, I didn't go ahead, knock.
John Jonathan do anymore closing closing thoughts for us before we letuh nate and this with some closing thoughts.
Oh well, I was just going to bring up something real. I'm sorry to touch on so many different nicles of this. It's it's a wide ranging case. But I uh, the one thing I think is interesting that I haven't discussed very much publicly, although I do devote about a chapter it's worth of stuff to it in in the book towards the end is the appearance of numerous references to the to the Yonkers case in the writing of Peter Stroud,
the late horror novelist. In fact, I'm rereading one of Straub's books right now, and he wrote, uh, CO wrote a couple of books with Stephen King, and that's primarily what he's known for now.
It's not a good cred to have these days. I don't think that's yeah.
It's it's really there's been a lot of crap from him about the past three years. I just prefer the old stuff. But yes, Stroud was Stroud Broke like really intelligent, very like overtly literate horror, you know, so that sort of fell out of favor after a while. But he he wrote a yeah, yeah, he was more. Yeah, but he he wrote a novel in nineteen seventy nine called ghost Story. It was always one of my favorite books, and I would reread it every Halloween or you know,
sometime around there. But in nineteen ninety six, after I had read Morey's book for the first time, I thought, geez, a lot of this sounds very similar to some of the allegedly fictional details and Ghost Story. So finally, what about four years ago? Is just taking a piece of paper write down everything I could find in The Ultimate Evil that seemed to have a quote unquote fictional correspondence
in Ghost Story. And there were at least three dozen references to the cult, specifically to the Yunker's cult and its activities, just in the text of that one book. Other yeah, other details appear in other novels, but that's the main one.
That's wild. Yeah, I've never heard of this guy, but this is this is You're blowing my mind over here. John.
It's very it. I mean, I just I jumped out of my chair for you. Yeah, I realized that I just could not. I mean, I always felt that a lot of the novel felt kind of disturbingly real, you know, like it was based on real people or events. But I just I never knew.
I just didn't.
You just don't assume that something like that is the case, you know.
But by nineteen well, it takes place in Melbourne, huh Milbourne.
Yeah, which is he sets it in upstate New York, But it's so once you start to read about it that it's just the parallels are just inescapable, you know. And he he has made reference at times even to the actual names of people involved in this case, even to the point of, you know, we had the Maury's Flipper list up earlier and we briefly scrolled past the name of Ron Spachala, who was involved with the planning
allegedly of the son of Sam Murders. He was a convicted child molester, was dishonorably discharged.
From the Navy.
Spachala was in no way, through the midst of any of this, a public figure, and his name was not publicly known as far as I know. But in nineteen ninety Peter Stroud names an incidental character in one of his novels, Mystery Officers, Spachala. He's a really uniform. Yeah, so it's an oddly specific name to use, you know.
It's not like Smith or Jones that he turns up this name Spachala, which is you find references to the case all throughout his work, and it's really fascinating because it's Peter Stroub's novels are like a completely separate confirmation of Maury's research, because as far as we know, they never met, never spoke to each other. They may have,
but I can't find any indication that they did. So the fact that Stroud knew about all this stuff and was putting it as fiction in his novels as early as the late seventies seems to indicate a whole other separate confirmation that the details of Maury's case are accurate.
So even for the folks that don't enjoy Stroud as a storyteller, I would ask him to just sort through some of his books and see how many references jump off the page at you, because it's really it becomes almost alarming after a while, but it's an interesting It's interesting to read him either way.
No, for sure.
I mean everything you're you're saying to me right now is bringing up a lot of different ideas, and so I'll definitely share some with the offline. I've tracked some processed church activities in around Melbourne, including the epicenter of activity with pornography, rock and roll and the mafia.
Yes, absolutely, I'd love to get more into that.
No, it's just interesting that would take place, you know, because it's not that far. I mean, I mean it's essentially just across it's the Hudson River Valley. It's across the Hudson River.
But I mean these two Milbourne and Yonkers are you know, geographically in the same region, you know, I mean it's sixty six miles.
Well, he he brings up. It's it's just so it's hard to know where to begin. He starts by setting the prologue and the epilogue of the novel in Panama City, Florida, which is where John Carr was stationed in the late sixties and early sex right, and from there the other references just pile up, one after another. But it was it really grabbed me the first time I realized what he was actually talking about it in the story.
But it's, uh, it makes it fascinating.
Yeah, that's fascinating literary analysis you've done there, John, I certainly will invite you back you want to discuss at any time, Well, thank you. I don't want to move past this Pachella Fell because I know he's important. I know you've already brought a few of those details. I'm scrolling through this list again, I don't see him.
I can't. I'm sure I'm just missing it. Oh yeah, can you hit it, because you know, is it a weird name?
Like?
He was an interesting character in the cold too there, right, yeah, he was.
He was one of the people that burkele Witz recalled was at the planning meeting in April of nineteen seventy six to plan out right the son of Sam attacks and he berka Witz said, and of course mister real Estate was there because it was either his house or a property that he owned or was associated with. That was probably James Donovan.
Right, So yeah, Helen which.
Was there, uh Richie Spurs.
I think it might be his wife, you know, missus real Estate.
But yeah, she could have had more to do with it, because we it's it's really hard to nail down details on that particular family. They've they've covered their their tracks pretty well.
And the process of pope they're literal pope as what they call it in their their incorporation documents is a female. So that was for many years, right, Apparently a number of power offshoots, uh you know, power control, a little wars amongst the different females in that colt. But it does seem to be a female led cult, so I
tend to think Missus real Estate. But yeah, I mean, so you're saying that, uh, this Pachella guy was there in the mix with the planning at the homes of the missus and Missus real mister and Missus real estate.
Right right there.
Yeah, so it's not even just it's I mean, it is a unique name, but it would be a unique character to include if you're making these these this pattern of elements from from the Cold into this into this science fiction novel, right right, and particularly he would be he would we want to focus on.
Right, Yeah, it's it was long before anybody really knew the Namespachala, which has really just emerged for our community just in the past few years. So sure it's eerie that Stroub seems to have already known about some of the stuff, you know, even long before more he wrote The Ultimate Evil. Strouds seems to have had a pretty detailed source who gave him this information and decided to disguise it as fiction, and he did. He did it very well. He was a brilliant writer. But yeah, it
was by no means was all of it fiction. A lot of what he was writing about was was thinly veiled fact.
Yeah, this is all very fascinating to me, because, especially in this literary analysis providing this is a common tactic amongst intelligence operatives. In fact, many of the men that founded the the OSS and the CIA both these weren't men. These were men of spycraft. These were men of literature. These guys are literary literary majors and writers. In fact,
a number of them, you know, come to mind. One of them that comes to mind, not no assessor CIA guy, but the guy who wrote the Armies during World War Two. He wrote the Army Technical Manual on Psychological Warfare. He'd be like a pre Aquino, be like the pre you know, Cleo, a queena before him. You have Lansdale, before Lansdale, you have this guy. His name's escaped me, but he was a science fiction author and he under the name Cordiner Smith.
Yes, funnily enough, Straub, this is a detail I forgot, but I'm so glad you brought that up in this book, mister X.
The villain's name is.
Cord Winger so Stroud. He was always dropping a lot of breadcrumbs and Yeah, yeah.
I know the guy that's fantastic. Yes, yeah, because Cordner's he was.
He was an army captain. He was Eleron Hubbard's college roommate. Much of the details of ELERONN. Hubbard's biography that he uh that he claimed he was uh, he actually stole
from his college roommates, Paul line Barger. Paul line Barger, and he would be a guy you would include in the characters in a science fiction novel like that by calling him Cordiner referencing him that because this guy, like I said, he was, you had a queen o and psychological warfare before even made like Lansdale before that had
Paul ain Barger. So, for example, he would later make comments about witnessing the events of the jfk assassination, saying that he witnessed his tactics being employed at Deeally Plausa that day. What he meant by that is, you know, didn't really qualify. But obviously you know he actually you know, one of his students would have been E.
Howard Hunt.
That'd have been somebody that Paul ain Barger would have trained in psychological warfare. So you know, there is a lot to be said about these characters, but for whatever reason, they embed stuff in sci fi novels. Corbyn or Smith. Paul Liinbarger wrote a sci fi novel where if you take the first letter of each of each line in the first page, it says like Oswald never fired a shot. You know, he embeds these messages in the science fiction, you know. And that's just that's just one example, but
there's a lot. There's numerous other examples such as that from Anthony Burgess to you know, even even folks like not necessarily science fiction, but again os s Cia guys Lauren Singer who wrote a film called The Parallax Effects durring Warren Batty, which involves mind control team of assassins going around murdering folks like President of France, and you know it's very you know, very spooky, you know actually,
but again it's to speak writing it. So there is this weird confluence of events with these sci fi novels that you bring up some interesting some interesting concepts there. John, for sure, you have a wheels turning.
Yeah, I appreciate. I'm glad to pass the information along because it's, uh, I know, it's a lot for people to wrap their heads around that. They think, well, geez, would an author of fiction really be involved with that sort of stuff? And uh, I know, Yet the book is the book is, mister x. It's just a great novel on its own terms, Like even if you don't you know, research any of the strangeness behind the story, but it's this is it's a really great book. I
recommend all the Stroud stuff. And he kind of the final confirmation for me that he was involved in this on some level was the fact that he dedicated ghost Story to two psychotherapists who were associated with Tavistock. And I mean, that's how specific it gets there on the dedication he named his daughter after the female psychotherapist. So that's that's pretty Oddes.
That's too on the nose. That's two on the nose, John Was it wasn't Eric crist Was it was it Eric Trist?
No? Eric Eric trist is the guy that I regard as the great granddaddy of all this horrible stuff that we're talking about. You know his Yeah, he came up with the social turbulence theory, which is exactly something that the process pedaled later, and he proposed it at first in the year that the process started as as compulsions analysis in nineteen sixty three.
So yeah, you're spot on target, John.
And when he left Tavistak, he went over to UCLA and worked with Lewis, Jolly and West for a brief, brief stint and again and his son Alan is the president. And I believe he's so alive. He's the president of the Grateful Dead's. He's a publishing company because he was best friends with Jerry Garcia.
Oh Man.
Well, like you said, it's so all in the nose, it's almost painful, you know.
It is painful.
It's very painful when this is dedicating a sci fi novel, The Davis Thug. It's crazy now, John, I I I appreciate these. I mean you you just dropped some so again you got my wheels turning here. I appreciate your the time you spend here sharing all this information with us tonight. And I definitely, you know, invite you back
here anytime. And Nate, I apologize for interruption there. I know you got some closing thoughts and turn it back over here to you to appreciate you joining us here tonight too, filling in as a co host here for Nick Nick's absence, and uh definitely, uh, welcome back anytime for future fridays here in Nate anytime.
But yeah, what uh what are your what are your thoughts?
You got some closing some closing, some parting statements and thoughts for us here you're on mute.
Yeah, I would say, I actually don't have any closing thoughts. I don't remember what I was gonna say, but it was it was something question about David Berkowoit's any ways, But thank you. I appreciate you having me on, brother, I would I love coming on here. I love Nick, So I hope Nick feels better, Jonathan. This was fantastic, man,
This super interesting. Uh there's so much to dig into here, and uh yeah, I mean you are kind of speaking my language with all these different connections here, with these cults and the CIA, the MK ultra and all like honestly like the entire like hippie movement in general, in a lot of this music scene, all of this is so tied together, and so like, I appreciate you making some of these connections and just getting feeding people's interest in this because I think there's way more to dig
into here. And uh yeah, David Burkowitz was a weird basically. Like the way I see it at this point is David burke Witz was kind of a fall guy. He was a scapegoat. Uh, and they just kind of let him like eat up all of those different those murders. And maybe he was guilty for some of them, and it doesn't seem like he was guilty for all of them. And I think, uh, it is interesting that they allow somebody to kind of get famous he's a famous serial killer.
Uh.
And maybe they just a lot of times, you know, some of these secret societies and different things like that. I think they it's kind of like saying, Kobe, you know, before you throw a piece of paper in the trash can. I think they like to put their signs and symbols on different things, but they quietly, they quietly do it. So they so they kind of take credit for things, but not really and they let people like David Burkewood's kind of eat the time as it would be.
You know, absolutely, I agree.
Yeah, that's a good it's an accurate analysis. I agree to their name.
I have I have a party question for you their Night in regards to your father's connections with Charles Manson. You mentioned he ran around with the you know, since he's Mexican fell he ran around his native Mexican crowd there in the Los Angeles region. So did he know Danny actor Danny Trejo.
I don't actually know that. That's a great question. I wish you did. Charles Manson, I should probably reach out to any trio at some point. That would be fun. I would love to have on the show.
Well, they're both Mexican fellows in Los Angeles. Who knew Charles Manson? I mean, what are the odds?
I mean, they're running in the same circles, right, I mean maybe, yeah, no doubt. Danny Treo, dude, I appreciate you gence time, and I hope it looks like as for the chattel Off folks of.
The interwebs here enjoyed the conversation.
Like I said, anytime, y'all want to come back, John to look forward to this litterary analysis of your sci fi work and your future son of sam research. Like I said, send you a few notes offline regarding some of the stuff we talked about. And yeah, welcome back anytime, Nate, Welcome back any time, Sir. I appreciate your time, and uh, that's it. We'll call the end of the show here.
Thanks, look, thanks for having me.
Sure, well that's it.
That's the show here, folks.
So the next time you're right on the town, visit in your local watering holes or perhaps just meandering around, and you hear the unmistakable sounds of metal clanking and you spot signs of a disturbance, but check your six look in that garbage can, because you never can tell the GCDs may be loose in your town.
Then you table to atpat in a patting