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Elemental Witchcraft with Heron Michelle

Jan 31, 20261 hr 38 min
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Episode description

If you enjoy this episode, we’re sure you will enjoy more content like this on The Occult Rejects.  In fact, we have curated playlists on occult topics like grimoires, esoteric concepts and phenomena, occult history, analyzing true crime and cults with an occult lens, Para politics, and occultism in music. Whether you enjoy consuming your content visually or via audio, we’ve got you covered - and it will always be provided free of charge.  So, if you enjoy what we do and want to support our work of providing accessible, free content on various platforms, please consider making a donation to the links provided below.  

Heron Michelle
https://www.heronmichelle.com/
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/witchonfire/
https://heronmichelle.substack.com/
https://www.youtube.com/@UCq_6kKGKtyMDNtO7XHoEwlg 

Thank you and enjoy the episode!
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Transcript

Speaker 1

You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?

Speaker 2

What a.

Speaker 3

Welcome to the cults rejects. This episode, I got a very special guest, very excited to have her on. She does own a shop near my house, so I'm happy to get somebody on that's local and that's actually into the community. But before we introduce her, we will be introducing the other rejects on the show.

Speaker 1

We got the Loon Judith with us today. What is going on? How are you hey?

Speaker 4

I'm alone? You can catch me on YouTube as the Loon. I just dropped the most recent buddy check and you can catch me also on Twitter.

Speaker 1

Awesome. Thank you very much for joining. I appreciate it. And we got Arrows Up. What is going on? Errows?

Speaker 4

How wire you doing well?

Speaker 5

Happy to be here, Happy to talk with Haron. We always have such fantastic guests, so it's always a good time, always exciting. You can find me on YouTube at Arrows Up, and you can find me on Twitter at arrows to Ethos.

Speaker 6

I post a lot of Platonist and metaphysics and astrology, so if you're interested in any of those topics check me out.

Speaker 1

Awesome. Thank you so much. I was always appreciate what you need to make the show and.

Speaker 3

Last minute least my boy, Headless Giant, how are you so?

Speaker 1

How you doing?

Speaker 7

You can find me at the Headless Giant on YouTube and on x and on Instagram as well, so check those out. And I have shows pretty much every day, at least it has been so far, so you can check out my Alchemy Mondays with Arrows and my seven seven seven Tuesdays with Nick. And I do another show called The Trialogues with Ethan Indigo and Ricardo on Sundays, so check those out ten thirty on Sunday, seven thirty on the rest of the time.

Speaker 1

So thank you, thank you very much, sir.

Speaker 3

Yes, today we have with us Michelle. No, sorry, I forgot to herod Michelle. Sorry and again I was telling people prior to the show and here now, yeah I was. There was a couple of metaphysics, so I don't know how you want to call them, which shops which stores out up by me and I stopped and all of them wanted to drop off some stickers and kind of introduce myself. But for some reason when I got when I walked in there, I had the feeling like I don't know. I wanted to ask the lady on. I

just feel like she had something to say. And then she mentioned that she had books and she even had them with a Welle, so I was like, oh, okay, so and I saw Elemental Witchcraft and that was something that I was looking to cover on the show kind of. I was going to go through a book and try to cover it myself, and it was gonna be a lot of work. So when she mentioned that, I was like, oh, perfect, We'll just get her on to talk about.

Speaker 1

It, save me up a lot of trouble in time. So I think it worked out well.

Speaker 3

She does have a shop to so Joanna, and she does have a book that we're going to be talking about, which is Elemental Witchcraft, A Guide to living a Magical Life through the Elements. And yes that is again that's out on Llewellyn recently. I just contacted them, so I'm hoping, hoping that they will send me authors because I was already have any tradition than Weiser sending me.

Speaker 1

So I'm going full well and let's see what happens.

Speaker 3

But please, Michelle, let everybody know where they can find your stuff if you want to advertise the store. Anything you would like to plug, please let people know.

Speaker 4

Okay, well, thanks for having me on again. In this world, I move about as Haron Michelle. You can call me either or both, and I do publish through Llewellyn. I've got one book out in a three book series, the Pinnacle Path series is what I call it. It was pitched as a three book series, but who knows. You know the word pinnacles, and it'll probably be in the end.

I've got lots to say. I also have been blogging on the Pathios Pagan channel since twenty fifteen as Witch on Fire, and I now do a sub stack under heron Michelle and all the other places. You know, YouTube, which I don't do very much with anymore, but you know all the social media places. If you're looking for me, I'm under heron Michelle and also I teach my book in a eighteen month long course on Harronmichelle dot com,

which has got all the information about my work. And I do graphic art to support my occult and witchcraft practices and to help others to visualize and make that magic real in their lives. So I have art, poetry, blogs, articles, books, and I'm now working on pushing the second book, Lunar Witchcraft after the series through Llewellyn. It's been submitted, but it's in progress. And the third book I'm working on

now in first draft will be Solar Witchcraft. So I'm basically working Middle World with the elemental witchcraft first, and then Underworld and Lunar Witchcraft working with the goddess forms specifically, and then Solar Witchcraft will be the god forms, the Sabbats, the seasons, et cetera, and the upper world.

Speaker 3

Wow. Nice, I love it sounds great. How long has your shop been around for?

Speaker 4

We are about to celebrate our seventeenth anniversary of being open on four to fourteen Evans Street. But we actually started our business as more of tent vending and whatnot at Pagan Prie Days and other conferences and festivals and things. We started a Tumnal Equinox in two thousand and eight, so eighteen seventeen years.

Speaker 1

Nice. Good for you, Good for you. Have you become kind of like a staple in Greenville.

Speaker 4

In Greenville, I guess you'd say that, I mean.

Speaker 3

Not knocking the other stores, but I mean you just when it comes to witchcraft, you're much more better off going to you.

Speaker 4

As I think, well, none of the other stores focus on which, yeah, I guess right, I think they. I think they purposely avoid that.

Speaker 1

So I wonder what they thought about me when I walked in.

Speaker 4

Well, I mean those, but well, my biggest competitor, the Crystal Shop in town, has been here since way before I was and I used to go, oh yeah, and I used to go in there and shop and ask for witchcraft related things to support my practice. And let's just say that the message was pretty clear that that was not we were not a community. They were interested in cert Wow. Really pretty specifically.

Speaker 1

Is that the one that looks like a house. It looks like a house. It doesn't even look like a business.

Speaker 4

Okay, they're pretty new, they're not. They're nice folks. I don't know them very well. But no, that's that's there a crystal shop. No, I'm talking about the one that's over in Arlingtonville. Oh okay, yeah, yeah, they're the they'd like to do the new age thing, but a long time ago they decided that they weren't interested in witchcraft, occultism, paganism. So I actually opened my store as a direct reaction to being rejected by those people.

Speaker 1

That's nice. Yeah, that's uh yeah.

Speaker 3

If I don't know how many listeners I have in North Carolina or anywhere near Greenville. But if you're into this stuff, I highly suggest to go to her store. It's a really nice.

Speaker 4

Place downtown on Evans Street, opened seven days a week now.

Speaker 3

And it isn't a great spot too, tell you the truth of you. A lot of stuff in that area, very nice area of Greenville. So, Michelle, when was it that you realize like, this is what I'm going to be into, Like this is my deal, witchcraft or whatever you call whatever you're into.

Speaker 1

When when did that happen?

Speaker 4

I think, like most folks who are into this, we always sort of knew, you know. I think I think it's an orientation. It's like you just come into the world. You just know things, and it takes a while maybe to figure out what it is that other adult human

beings call it. But once you find out that it is a movement, that it is, you know, and I do mean occultism, I mean the people who understand that there is the mysterious underlayer of everything and you're aware of that and what you're being fed is what is reality, the consensus reality of culture. And I mean I was a little kid going nah, nah, that's not it. But of course I was raised in the Southern Baptist Evangelical Christian where you know, there was only the one right way.

Speaker 3

I was going to say it was that an influence and you kind of looking all the ways.

Speaker 4

Oh yeah, I mean that's how you find that's why you go looking for what are what else is out here? Because I was so depressed as a kid, I was like, man, if this is the way, if this is the truth, if this is the only one option I've got, I'd rather just check out now because I cannot participate in this. And so, you know, you get old enough you can

go to the library by yourself or whatever. And of course, mind you, I'm talking about the seventies in the eighties, there's no internet there, you know, so well, you know, you finally found out what else is out there? And I'm like, oh, now, that was the one right thing. I knew. That was the thing I knew all along. I just didn't know what it was called. And you know, it seems like reincarnation because I was one of those

weirdo kids that remembers my past life. I always have, and I I would have like PTSD like reactions as a small child to as if I had been in a terrible cataclysm some some traumatic thing. And I remember dying in World War Two. I didn't know it was World War Two until I got old enough to study those things and recognize things. But I died being crushed under the rubble of a building that was bombed out. And so I have PTSD like reactions to similar situations,

you know. And so it took me a while to figure all that out and then do the actual spiritual journey work to discover it more specifically. But I'm also clairvoyant, just naturally. There's lots of things about me that made me very weird as a child and rejected for my weirdness as a child. And then I finally find out what it's all called. You know, the words reincarnation and the word you know, things that make sense. And so I started pursuing this and knowing what it was at seventeen. Oh, Okay,

to answer your question. Originally, it took me a while to get there. Until then I thought it. I just called it the religion of Michelle. And then I found out that it already is an established thing, and it was just you know, occultism really well something.

Speaker 7

That's an interesting aside. Like we talked to Ronnie Pontiac yesterday and he was talking about Manly P. Hall and his interactions with him, and it seemed like Manley PA Hall's journey was because the Internet didn't exist and he couldn't find these sources really readily. Is the Internet taking adventure out of the self discovery process?

Speaker 4

That's a good question. I'll tell you what it was a lot harder to find this stuff is. I was raised in Taylor, South Carolina. I didn't really find this stuff till I got out of South Carolina. I went as far away to college as I could possibly go, and I had it in my head that if you wanted to find witches you had to go to New England. Mind you, I was seventeen. What is a girl from South Carolina who was raised under her Southern Baptist rock. I had no idea I got to go to New England.

So I go to college in Vermont and the very first things I'm looking for and I find this really awesome hippie dude who's wearing a pinnacle and I like attack him. I'm like, oh, tell me everything you know. And he's still a friend of mine to this day.

But I was finally able to get some books. I was able to order some titles of things from my school bookstore that I had not been able to get my hands on in South Carolina that I couldn't have had in the house because of my mother basically being, you know, the security forces for Jesus, you know, and making sure that nobody thought a free thought otherwise. So anyway, once I got away, I was able to figure it out, and that's really when the journey began. But man, it

was hard to find it. And you mentioned mainly, p Hall, I have got a treasure right behind me where I can grab it. Look at this. This is the Secret Teaching of All Ages, the fiftieth anniversary edition about one. This is one of my treasures of my of my library. I love this thing I found. Oh I do bibliomancy with this when I'm like, oh, I'm bored, let's learn something new today.

Speaker 1

Just fit nice.

Speaker 4

Oh and hey, look the elements in their inhabit So that would be how I first discovered that and then ultimately wrote a book about it.

Speaker 1

That's awesome.

Speaker 3

So I guess I know you kind of mentioned did anybody have any questions or ask anything before I go?

Speaker 4

You wanted to ask, are you solitary? Is there a particular tradition that you follow within witchcraft? Good question. Uh, well, it's kind of a both in that I wasn't trained

in any particular tradition. I've had many mentors through the years who were also more like solitary at that point and taught me a lot, but never in that formalized teacher mentee where I was ultimately initiated, because everybody I studied with, regardless of if they had their own like old school priestess initiation, were choosing not to do that at that point, like they felt like the initiates should go to directly to Divinity, should received their initiation directly

from Divinity. They would teach me everything they need, but they left that stuff between me and the gods. And so ultimately that's how I got there, is me being stubborn, just banging on the door of the mysteries until I was let in one one way or another, and then I I kind of rallied all the rest of the folks who were looking for information. I passed on what I had been taught by individuals and what I had

been reading. But as it happens, because just about everything in my astrological chart has to do with mercury virgo here, you know mercury there, I teach. That's what I do. I talk about things. I am very analytical. I can then summarize and communicate it. That's one of my strengths. And I was called to share that by my guides,

like do what you gotta do to share this? So I have been teaching about it for so long that eventually you get other folks around you, and now we all consider ourselves self initiated solitary witches who then want to team up. And then that became a coven, which then became a formal training program which went on for more than a decade, which now has second degree people who've chosen to initiate to the clergy status and then

third degree. And it's just like self made, so so the no and that I was a solitary eclectic self taught, which then I taught that so long that it became its own codified tradition with its so many initiates that then hung around together and continued to teach and bring you know, we coagulated all this information together into what became known as the Sojourner Tradition of modern witchcraft, and then that was formalize. We had a coven that operated

for over a decade. I was the founding high priestess. I served for five or six of the ten or twelve years that it operated. It most recently decided to go on. We went on a hiatus after the whole COVID thing shut down the teaching program, and we did continue on for a long time, but a lot of our main members moved away and we kind of the core group was a little small, and we just decided

to take a break for a while. So it's not currently operating, but it does still exist, and there are initiates all over the country that self initiated us through our training program. And then that training program that I taught for those ten years became became part of this book. The program is ultimately going to be revealed through all three of the books in the Pinnacle Path, but only

some of it. And then of course once I wrote the books, I add so much more, because you know, when you teach Wika one on one or witchcraft, it's not really wika. When you teach witchcraft one oh one for ten straight years, your soul just is dying to get into deeper stuff and go other places. I mean, it's important to teach the beginning stuff to new students.

But it was in my private work and then my private work with the coven later on in those who stuck around, and we really taught each other a lot, and we continued to just move forward in the mysteries, each person bringing their own interest into the pot. It was like a cauldron of ideas. And the books themselves are very different than the program was when I taught it. But we had to shut down the teaching program on

Thursday nights out of the shop. We had to shut that down in March of the well, actually I think we made it through May online and then we just stopped the teaching program and it's not been I've been held in person since then. But I'm getting ready to reopen my classroom again. I'm really excited about that.

Speaker 1

And you used to do that right out of the store or no, oh yeah, oh.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I would pack twenty people into that big central room. Mind you you saw it well after it had been turned mostly into retail space. Its original concept was that it was a community center, a teach a place where people could have meetings, and we held rituals and community events and meetups, et cetera. And it just had a

store in the front. After the whole COVID thing shut down all the in person meetings, we really expanded the retail to take up those spaces, because even after we tried to reopen things in like twenty two or twenty three, nobody would come. People were still too nervous. But I think we're finally there and I'm reopening the old classroom and so now it's a private reading space and I read Taro every other Sunday out of the store, and I do read the the Alistair Croley Deck, the Toat Deck,

which I know is something that you talk about a lot. Yeah, that's that's that's what I do.

Speaker 3

I did notice you seemed interested when I did mention to you, I was I used to be in the Oto. Oh yeah, yeah, I know you were like, oh oh okay, definitely.

Speaker 4

I mean when you told me that I knew what I was dealing with.

Speaker 1

I get it. Yeah, it goes yeah, that's funny.

Speaker 4

I mean I mentioned the OTO in my book all the time because I think people need to know where these concepts come from. And even if you never study the OTO, you don't know anything about Alistair Crowley or nothing about Filema. You if you are in witchcraft, any flavor, especially Wicca, it is all flavored up with that. That is the major spice in the soup. And even if.

Speaker 7

Way I was going to cover Gerald Gardner and how much he was taking from the OTO uh in a in a program, but we never got a round to it. But this is the perfect example. It's you know, it's right there. Once you compare the two, you know Witchcraft and OTO are pretty much inseparable.

Speaker 4

It's so well had he got a charter directly from Crowing.

Speaker 1

You said that in one of your episodes. I heard it.

Speaker 3

I had it playing on my TV and I was like talking about Gardner. I was like, I haven't heard too many people. I don't know a lot of witch grist. People don't like admitting that stuff for some reason. So I was like surprised, I hear you say it.

Speaker 4

Gardner was the number one eclecticus of his time. I mean, he just went around pulling what he found to be relevant and interesting and useful from all of these places, and to say otherwise is just ignorant of his story. I mean, I've read his biography. I know where he got.

Speaker 6

Right.

Speaker 7

And uh, what a friend I met way back in the nineties, a guy named Isaac Bonowitz. He's he's a legend and legend. Yeah, well he he started his whole pursuit of druidry based off of what he was experiencing with, you know, the Gardenerian witchcraft. So he was trying to do a more accurate historical approach as opposed to the eclectic approachship of Jerald Gardner.

Speaker 4

Oh sure, I mean, I'm definitely an eclecticist. I mean, and that became an ugly word not you know, in which current Oh you're an eclectic that's not to be taken seriously. And I'm like, yo, I learned from the best, you know, Daryl Gardner and Dreene Valiante, all of them. You know, let's just say that I've taken lesson from their example, if not by their creed, of how to go about hobbling together a meaningful personal practice without being a slave to dogma. Because look, I came up in

the Southern Baptist Church. Anything starts to smack or oh there's only one right way, or you're not allowed to change anything or think a different thought, or you know, I just immediately reject that, reject it, because.

Speaker 1

Yes, I love it.

Speaker 3

Well said, I know you kind of got into it a little bit already, but like, I guess maybe you want to talk a little bit before we get into the book about like when did you have the idea for the store?

Speaker 1

I mean, I know you kind of shy.

Speaker 4

Two thousand and seven, my mother died passed away, and it was it was right after my first initiation into the craft, and in the second year of my studies, at the suggestion of my mentor, I dedicated my great work of magic that year to exploring elemental fire. I don't know if I recommend that for the second year out of the gate to totally anyway. Lots of very

fiery things happened immediately talk about a tower year. Everything that had held me back was script away, and of the most challenging of those things was the sudden death of an unexpected death of my mother. That's the tragic part, the happy part of that story is the minute that she crossed into spirit, so not like so she died, she was brain dead, but she's still physically alive. Her soul instantly came to me and started to speak to me.

And like I said, I have a sort of a clairvoyant, just natural clairvoyance that was pretty untrained at that point. And the minute she was in the spiritual world, released from her mortal coil, all the biases and the bigotry, all of the evangelical just madness fell away, and she came to me and haunted me basically until I planned her funeral the way she wanted it planned, and I gave her eulogy. It said what she wanted to have

said at et cetera. And she haunted me for the next five years, trying to help guide me from the spiritual realm. So she became a spirit guide who completely accepted my witchiness. I ended up taking what I had gotten from her, her estate. She had a life insurance policy, and I got some money. And you know, you play everybody plays that game. What would you do if you suddenly had a pot of money.

Speaker 3

I would open a metaphysical store, you know, No, Lie, I was thinking, but I was like, I don't want to take it to her to take this the wrong way. But I was even wondering if this was the situation that she came into money that gave you the chance to actually do this.

Speaker 4

I did. But moreover, she encouraged me to live authentically as my true self, you know, the whole Christian thing. Don't lie hide your light under a bushel, you know. And of course they mean you should let people know you're Christian or what you know, shine brightly who you are and your faith, et cetera. Well she meant, only if it's Jesus all day when she was alive. But in spirit it was, I know who you are. You need to shine. You need to be yourself. You need

to get out of your oppressive marriage. You need to that. And she wanted me to take that money and become myself, become happy, to pursue relationships that support who I am as a person who accept me fully as I am, allow me to be sovereign, et cetera. The person she was would have never preached those things ever, but in spirit she did, and so she guided me and we opened the store, and she basically was a resident spirit at my store. Seen by countless mediums. People I don't know,

don't know anything about me, would come and go. You know, there's the ghost of like a matronly mothery person around you, right, And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Eventually, with the help of a medium, I helped her realize that it was okay, she could go into the light. And she did move on and has sense gone on onto her next adventure and is no longer reported around me very often unless I go and seek her out or call her in. But uh yeah, my mother helped me. My evangelical mother

helped me open that store. But it really was just a bid for my personal sovereignty. And I was so lonely in my feeling like I couldn't talk to anybody about this. So there's no one to There's nowhere to go, there's no places that cater to my interests. Where do I find the people of like mind in Greenville, North Carolina? And so I was like, you know, I don't want to be lonely like that. I don't want to feel isolated,

and I don't want other people to feel isolated. So I opened the store and I was like, it's got to be on basically main Street, you know where we are downtown on Evans Street is basically yeah, main street, middle of town. I want it to be fully visible,

open the way a church stoor is open. People can come in, talk to talk, find a book, find people of like mind, find acceptance, and we try to cater also to making sure that anybody that doesn't tread the well traveled path, you know, which is that's our motto is equipping the pathless traveled based on the Frost poem. You know, I took the pathless traveled by and it's made all the difference anybody who's on a different path, whether that be their lifestyle or sexuality, or their religion

and philosophy, et cetera. I want those folks to know that they are accepted as the divine beings that I know they are, and we can just we can just sort of band together a big rainbow parade, you know of weirdos going down the road and broad daylight. So that's been and so far it's been, it's gone.

Speaker 1

Well.

Speaker 4

I've only had a few protesters before. Really well wow, I've had a couple of funny stories, but really nothing that you would expect you to. I mean, I know that there are whole Sunday school groups preaching that we are of the devil and everybody should should avoid us. But let me tell you what. The reason why I know that is because people in those Sunday school rooms or Bible studies or wherever they heard that at whatever church,

they come directly into the stores. Like I just found out you were here because of my Sunday school told me I was to boy caught you, and I'm so excited you're here.

Speaker 1

I had to go see. I know that is funny. It was working out wrong.

Speaker 7

They're not doing themselves any favors on the spiritual warfare in front.

Speaker 4

No, no, anyway, I got magic and all the rest. I mean, they might have yahweh on their side, but I got all the rest of the guys online.

Speaker 1

That's funny, all right.

Speaker 3

So what was uh? What was the first book you ended up ever writing? What made you decide to start writing?

Speaker 2

Oh?

Speaker 4

I am I've been writing since high school. I went to a fine arts high school in Greenville, South Carolina for creative writing.

Speaker 1

So then he moved to Greenville, North Carolina.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I love Greenville.

Speaker 1

Apparently there's one in Tennessee too. You can check that one out.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I think there's one in every state of the Union.

Speaker 3

All right, so what would you I guess you forget into the book? Where do you want to start with that? I guess, well, what what was it with this book that you thought the community is missing? And I'm going to give this to one with this book?

Speaker 4

Okay?

Speaker 1

That to put you like, I know, that might be a tough question right away.

Speaker 4

No, no, no, no, no, because you're not the only interviewer to ask me that question.

Speaker 1

Good. Good, that's a good that's a good thing.

Speaker 4

I have got I have got an answer written out.

Speaker 3

Can I just yeah, go for it?

Speaker 4

All right? On the why did I write this book? The book came out of a sense, my sense that Western occultism had spent the last two hundred years perfecting what I would I perceived of as division. It's the Coagula, I mean, the salve salve at Cowagula. You know, let's divide it, let's analyze it, let's put it in little rows in a correspondence boxes. Let's figure out what planetary sphere it belongs to, you know what I mean, like

to break it down, break it down. It was a you know, it was with the swing into the patriarchy that the last you know, two three thousand years have been and that's a necessary phase. You know, that is a part of that pendulum swing. It had been that uh it was you know, they wanted to perfect division and subclassification and the individual power. You know, how do I apply my will you know the whole to will you know, to know, to will, to dare to be

silent the whole thing. But that's perfecting your own your own power, your own will. I just it's incomplete. And my work individually, I was like, okay, well, I'm because I study hermetics, I consider the kind of witchcraft I I practiced to be hermetic witchcraft. And I was like, all right, well, but there we have to restore the other side of the swing. There's the coagula, you know, there's salve a, there's coagula. There's there's this balance between

the polls that we have to come back. We have to come back over away from the sexism that was so died in the wall of the occultist Western esoterism and occultism for the last couple hundred years. So anyway, my work an Elemental Witchcraft is my attempt to answer the next turn of the cycle, to return to integration, to return to cooperation. I call it the cooperative culture

of witchcraft. I'd like to get back the magic, back into embodied oneness with Divinity and the world, not a separateness from the world the way you know, and Christianity really wants to separate you from the world. Wiches are of the world. We are the ones here in the middle loving the material world looking sideways, you know. Some religions look up all the heavens all the time, angelic beings,

the gods, the god's gods. Others want to look down into the underworld and get all deep into the shadows and the spirits and the ancestors, et cetera, which is really do balance these There's a time and a place for all of that. But we're trying to live right here in the middle world and enjoy this, enjoy embodiment.

So I see the move into the Aquarian age needs a new approach to all of these things, a new embodied, lived, practical lifestyle type philosophy that serves a modern world as opposed to looking backwards and trying to figure out how the ancients did it. I do want to be informed by what we know about how the ancients did things. But I don't want to slavishly recreate that like an anachronist. You know, I'm not. That's not what I'm interested in.

So I was trying to apply everything I know about, all that ancient tech, all that philosophy, all the things we knew before the what I call the invasive orthodoxies marched through the world, and you know, at the edge of a sword or a torch or a pitchwork or whatever, force the old ways, the old knowledge that was more nature based, force that underground. I want to excavate that, but I want to find a way to meld that in an alchemical way with with the modern world to

make a meaningful, fulfilling, happy, pleasurable modern life. That's a very long answer, but that's why I wrote the book.

Speaker 1

No, I've even been saying on the show, well, I think we all said it here in different ways, Like it does seem like it's just I think the old way of looking at this stuff just isn't it's not working, or I think it could work better.

Speaker 4

Oh yeah, these are snapshots of time that the people that were thinking about them, and they're important, But you got to keep it in historical context.

Speaker 1

That's a good way to put it.

Speaker 4

I mean, I look at the things that like Alistair Crowley or Gerald Gardner or Alexander Sanders or whatever, and and and then the women that they were counterparts to those movements during Valiante and Maxine Sanders, et cetera. And you know, there are jewels there, things that they were really figuring out that though that's good, that's good, and it might be in a whole pile of shit that was just patriarchy and sexism. And you know, old rich white dudes, you don't have any idea how it really,

you know, is for the rest of the world. And you have to sift all that out to get the jewels that are worth keeping in the modern world, and also understand the context of where they were living and how they their perspective, their their lived experience. And you know, those were not necessarily better times, so we can we can adjust. I think we need to adjust.

Speaker 7

Even in what mostly consider like a patriarchal Viking era, you know Heathen read context, women played a much more important role within the functions of society that a lot of people don't recognize. It's it's a different way of looking at it from a pagan perspective. And I think we're just tired of the division.

Speaker 2

You know.

Speaker 7

It's it's there are better forms of authority, Yes, and handed exactly.

Speaker 4

Well, you know the what I so I liked. I love words, words, and my thing, like I said, it's if you if you look at my astrological chart, I lean so heavily towards mercury and air. And so I will make up a word. I will make up a term. I'll coin a term, and here we are. So rather than referring to the the baneful aspects of religion by a specific religion's name, because we know you can't paint one group or one philosophy with one broad stroke and apply like they are all bad. This was all damaging.

That's not fair. So rather than saying the Abrahamic religions or Christianity or whatever, I will say that any group that invades the minds the lands where they are not native, threatens, does harm, It stills fear and tells people that there's only one right way. It is their way, and if they do not comply with their way and they're thinking, et cetera, that they will be harmed. That's extortion. I call those the invasive orthodoxies. They tend to be patriarchal.

They tend to use the technologies of fear, domination, violence, fear of death, et cetera. They they weaponize their philosophy. I call those the invasive, invasive orthodoxies, and they have done terrible damage to the world over the last thousands of years. However, there is an other way. It is a more egalitarian way. It's some of the ancient cultures, especially what we have to dig up from way way way back, like go Beckley Teffe and that kind of thing.

Anthropologies digging back up. It's not like they were matriarchal cultures. They were God is revering, but they tended to be more egalitarian, and they focused on the technologies of creation, of agriculture, building, of bringing people together, et cetera. And they venerated life as opposed to venerating death. And so they focused on the mechanisms of creation and creativity and art and et cetera. And those are what I call

the cooperative cultures or partnership cultures. And there's lots of anthropologists who have studied these things from the ancient world. It's where we get a lot of our understanding of the ancient, know, the really the really ancient cultures. And people want to call them matriarchies, but they weren't. They weren't they They revered and respected, and they were more egalitarian, not perfect though there was. There's nothing in the past we can be like, Oh, that's the perfect utopia, we

should go back to that. I don't think we should ever go back to anything. I think we should move forward. So that's what I'm trying to do. It's like, all right, well, understanding all that, we're going to need to have a new ethos We're going to need a new tech of how do we embody and live this this magical, this philosophical way. How do we live that every day in our regular lives, as we parent our children, as we go to work, as we I don't know, drive around town.

How do we take care of our lives now and build a better world. To me, that's the great work of alchemy.

Speaker 2

Right.

Speaker 4

We're supposed to be evolving towards our oneness again while also exploring and revering our individuality, our diversity. We're here to be diverse, to have diverse experiences to bring back to the woodenness. But there just doesn't need to be

all this divisiveness. And that's what I'm working on, is just figuring out who we are as people with these philosophies informed by hermetics and alchemy, and then applying that to a real world, Middle world magic and lifestyle, which is the witchcraft part.

Speaker 5

So is that where the Solar Book comes from. This recognition of this creative principle being so important right now, Well, I'm.

Speaker 4

Working on that now. I'm just at the beginning phases of that, but it will touch on the seasonal sabbath cycles and how this sort of agricultural themes that we think of in paganism and the Sabbots, how those are played out in our ritual forms and our mythology. But it does bring the focus back to the God. We're not you know, the witchcraft that I practice is not

solely about the goddess. We have to have the God in there too, but it brings it's a focus on the yang side of things, whereas Lundar witchcraft is a focus on the yen side of things. Elemental was the earth, air, fire, water, and spirit like a pencacle to get this middle world self is to get our middle world self all in balance and empowered so that we can then handle dealing with divinity individually.

Speaker 5

You know.

Speaker 4

So I don't know if that answers your question, but it does reweave it back in but without focusing on it first. Does that help answer your questionnaires?

Speaker 1

Aertributed Yes, thank you.

Speaker 4

Okay, I'm just starting my work on that. I wanted to ask too.

Speaker 5

I know, like we're really late into it for this, but could you define elemental magic?

Speaker 1

I was going to ask you, so it's not too late, thank you.

Speaker 4

Yeah, okay. So you know, the five points of the pinnacle, earth, air, firewater, and spirit, microcosm to macrocosm. Right, the world, the middle world that we know of, woven together by the essences of the four elements. This is very platonic. This is definitely you know, from the Old Greeks and then how they came into Alexandria Egypt and blended with the Egyptian

ideas which became hermetics. What goes way back to all of that, but the notion that in the world has made up of five elemental essences, the spirit of that also has a material component. So the elements are the spirit of water, the spirit of air, the spirit of earth, the spirit of fire. Then there are the material aspects of it too, that which we can see and learn

from here in the Middle World. But when Divinity passes down through the seven celestial spheres of influence, which is the way of bringing in astrology to become something new in the Middle World, it passes through those five planes of you know, the elemental planes, and then that gets cast into form here in the Middle World as the

physical thing. And at the root of hermetic alchemy is the notion that everything that exists in the cosmos has a spirit, has a soul, has a body, and those things are woven together as they pass through these elemental essences. So the Middle world is the casted projection, kind of like a hologram, hologram being like a projection of light that seems like it's three D. That's the casting into the illusion of our separateness as individual things. But what

makes them are these elemental essences. And the reason why the Pentacle star is the symbol for the perfect balanced integration of all five of those things, and we call that like a symbol of the microcosm and the macrocosm, and they reflect like a mirror image of each other.

And so the magic that WICCA employs, as well as alchemy and well any magical system it has to is is focused somehow on creating this reality and accordance with our will and tapping into these forces in various ways with various techniques to weave together what it is that we desire in the world. And so it's the very foundational building block elements of both the world and magic.

Which is a long answer, but that's why so many people will call on earth, air, firewater, and spirit in their magic and then relate them to cardinal points or points within the circle, because you have to have all of those essences working together in alignment with each other and flowing in accordance to your will to create that change. Was that too much or not enough of an answer? No, that was such a good answer. Thank you so much. You're welcome. So yeah, that's and to me, it's the

middle world reality. Like it's also, fire is your will, Air is your mind or your mental state, Water is your emotional state in your relationships. Earth is obviously the physical body, the physical needs of the body. Spirit is that in that part of you that is eternal, that is part of divinity, that spark of divinity within you, and that is net cannot be destroyed ever, all right.

So that's who we are. And so I start with elemental witchcraft because if you're going to be a magical practitioner, and my God, if you go back and read anything from Eliphas Levi, who is the one that you know, the French occultist, the Cobblists that gave us the idea

of the four powers of the sphinx. You know, to know, to will, to dare, to be silent, you have to master the four elements in your own life first before you can do any of the higher level things of interacting with angelic beings or spirits, are you know, individual divinities, et cetera. You have to make yourself strong and balanced first. Unfortunately, so many folks want to go straight to the psychism, the clairvoyance, the working with higher angelic beings, et cetera.

And if they don't have their own shit straight, they don't have the head on turned on straight, they don't have their hearts straight. If they're emotionally immature or so physically decrepit because of the toxins or the poisons or the illnesses of the body. They just blow a fuse when they try to do the higher level things. So I start in this middle world, like, just figure our lives out, figure out who we are, figure out what we think, figure out what our personal will is, what

is our divine will? What is our sacred purpose? Here that's the fire. Figure out our relationships and to divine love that is the cosmos. How do we figure out how to be a human being here in the middle of an adult, mature human being before we start doing magic. There are a lot of emotionally immature occultists in the world.

Speaker 1

Have y'all noticed, Oh yeah, I.

Speaker 4

Mean there's a fair view just saying and yet they're doing They might be doing some really powerful work, but I don't know that their lives are improved by that work.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's one thing that should happen. My life should get better. Everything to an extent, hold like what are you doing for?

Speaker 4

So anyway, I just try to start there, like, you know, get yourself straight. And then the next work, the one that I'm so excited about working on now is the Learner witchcraft. That's the deep dive into the underworld, the astral realm, psychism and past lives and divination and working with the goddess and really getting it deep into the fields feelings. You know, it's like a taking a deep

swim and the cauldron of the goddess. Man, you really got to have your life straight before you start doing that shadow work. So that's the second book, and I work.

I've been appealed to twelve different goddesses, one for each zodiac sign to be called in during the various lunar phases when the moon is in those signs, to help bring those powers to balance out the the let's see the benefits and the challenges of each element during those lunar phase because in the moon being associated with water so heavily, and so the calling a goddess in to help to balance that out and to really fine tune

the balances we have within ourselves. That's what I've been working on this year, and I'm so excited about it about that work coming out. Again, I ramble, Sorry, i think I've left the point long ago.

Speaker 1

No, you're good, You're good, thank you.

Speaker 3

Anyway, One thing I did want to ask when you get into, you know, doing your own stuff, if you were to do elemental magic, do you do like ritual work and stuff?

Speaker 4

Oh sure, yeah, wickens are all about the ceremonial magic.

Speaker 3

All right, So I didn't want to kind of maybe put you on the spot. But like, if let's say you were to work with the element of fires, since you brought it up, would you kind of give people an idea like how everything would be set up for that?

Oh sure, like even like maybe like I don't know, like for me, like depending on what I used to work with Planetaria elemental you know, I'd have the herbs that match, at the crystals that match, and maybe even change my old the cloth which wearing something, you know, get extra all that stuff. You know, I'm wondering if you did the same or however you did it. However, if you can maybe give us just a little bit of.

Speaker 4

An idea, okay, sure, So just as an example in my book, I have five paths that you walk during the certain seasons of the year, and you work specifically with that element very heavily. And so while you're working with fire, just use that as an example. Planetary stuff, any of the stuff that comes from the old occultist correspondence tables, et cetera. All the ALcom obile with all that stuff is yes, yes, pull all that in so yes,

red orange, yellow on your aldercloth. Things that have to do with salamander, dragons, et cetera, very you know, very fiery, desert y. You want the stones that associate with the sun or mars, the herbs that want to associate that way also, so I would have oh gosh, if I'm burning incense, and I do a lot of formulary, I provide all these recipes and everything is I mean, I create candles and incense blends that you burn on charcoal, so I'd have cinnamon and orange and clove and oak,

et cetera, frankincense that all have those fiery things, and you're layering it up. And each time that you employ one of these material allies, you tap into the spirit. Because again we get back to that ol chemical notion that everything that exists in the world has a soul, a spirit, and a physical body. So it's not just

that I've got the body of a frankincense nugget. I need to tap into, awaken and partner with the spirit, the soul of franking sense, which is aligned on another cosmic level with the celestial sphere of the Sun, or I could do the same with anything having to do

with Mars, and that would get me closer to fire. Also, we work heavily with the elemental beings in which in Wick and Witchcraft, so the God, I mean not the God, the elemental king, gen and the salamanders are the elemental beings that that embody, that essence, that do the work of that essence in the world. They would spur energy physical, the physical exercise, aspects of things, the ecstasy of passion

and sexuality. They would really get shit done. And so that whole time you want to be tapping into the power of your muscles and the Sun and the fire and the Mars and them, and you would call upon those beings to help reveal what is the work of your will. Let should be the sacred work of your will at that time. And we work heavily with this, you know, to will on the whole sphinx or the

pyramid of power, depending on your tradition. But also because I'm restoring the goddess's tools, the receptive tools, back to the old patriarchal occultism, in heavily heavily, heavily. In my book, we talk about the jewel of power in old witchcraft from fifty years ago, one hundred years ago, or the wick from you know, pretty recent times, they would talk about the pyramid of power, to know, to will, to dare,

to be silent. But there are receptive powers also that were first named by a Wickan, a Guarnerian Wickan high priest who's also a psychoanalyst in his day job. His name is Timothy Roderick, and he taught that there were the receptive lessons of each element. Also because everything has yin and yang. So the pyramid of power that we know, or the sphinx of power from ELFs Levi, was all the masculine aspects. They were all project the projective aspects

of the elements. But what's the opposite of to know? Well, the goddess's tool for that is to wonder, to release knowing, and to ask new questions. What's the So then there's to will that's applying your will to the world, like you're the fire being applied as the catalyst to the world. Well, what's the opposite of that is to surrender? You are the fuel on the fire. What's the opposite of to dare,

which is the water overflowing the emotion. I'm going to dare to be courageous and go out there and apply my will and my feelings on the world. What's the opposite of that? It's to accept the emotional conditions or accept the situation that you're in. And then what's the opposite of just to sit still, to be silent and to wait in expectation of the outcome. The opposite of that is to resonate, to set the new tone for

the world. So the Goddess's tool for Earth is to resonate a new intention and then to draw something new, create something new into the world. Okay, so we work heavily with those things too. So while I'm working with fire, I would not only try to figure out what is my will in the world, what is the sacred divine purpose for me that I should be applying my individual will to accomplishing, but also what do I need to

surrender to those fires? What no longer serves me impedes me in the same way that when a sword is in the forge and it's being purified in the fires, and all of it's the impurities, the weaknesses of the metal are burned away, and what is what emerges from those fires should be sharper, more finely honed, more rarefied, better able to be wielded to for your will. So I would work both angles there while also appealing to the planetary sphears the gods that are very firing, like Mars,

et cetera. So that is a big long answer. But when I but I would do those rituals in a sacred circle and I would only call that element in and then I would do a lot of deep journey work with those ideas while layering up the crystals, the herbs, the colors, the stones, et cetera, the full ceremonial magic gambit, and I would I would ask to you to know those questions. You know, how should I apply my will? But also what do I need to give up and

then let myself surrender to those fires? Not an easy task.

Speaker 7

Well, I think what you've done there is you've shown your teaching method because you would be explaining the principles behind why choosing these elements are important and then letting people use their own discretion on how they want to form the motif for themselves.

Speaker 4

Yes, it's all about free will. It's all about you designing your practice. I do. I do encourage folks who who haven't done this kind of thing before to follow the recipe at least once to see what it's supposed to.

Speaker 1

You know.

Speaker 4

It's kind of like the map, you know, following a map that some other explorer from one hundred years ago left you, or even five years ago left you see where it took them. But you have to acknowledge that the landscape is different, their perspective is different, what they're there to learn is different, and so you've got to be able to, you know, make your adaptations to suit

you and your your needs. The whole point being to remain open, receptive to the divine will in your life and to your guides, your ancestors, et cetera, and how they're nudging you along, remain in wonderment so that you can form your own opinions, your own beliefs.

Speaker 1

Thank you, Thank you. I appreciate that answer.

Speaker 3

Yeah, there's been times where I've kind of gone on about that how I would get that extra But I just wanted other people to know that that's not unusual, you know, and you know, when they're only hearing it from me constantly.

Speaker 1

You know it helps. They have somebody else as well.

Speaker 3

So what is there anything any of you? Just have questions or anything you want to ask anybody else here?

Speaker 1

I wrote? So Judith, he list nothing, all right?

Speaker 2

Can you hear me?

Speaker 1

Yes?

Speaker 4

Right?

Speaker 2

Okay, So then you're you're kathonic. Sorry, your lunar book not just kathonic.

Speaker 4

I just oh, it's definitely cathonic.

Speaker 2

I guess could could you speak on that a little bit? Is that? Uh? I imagine a lot of deep diving into the subconscious and maybe heckita hmm.

Speaker 4

Yeah, So you want to know what goddess is I picked for which for the signs?

Speaker 1

If you don't mind, Oh no, I don't mind.

Speaker 4

This is my jam and done devotional art for each of them. Let me just give an example, okay, So in my book, like this is an illustration from my book. The idea is to make candles. Right, this is my triple Goddess one. I've got like a maiden mother crone thing going on here because an elemental I try to keep it just to the archetypes, into the yen and

the young. I've got a triple god one too, all right, so, but for a lunar witchcraft, what I suggest doing is creating a sanctuary candle for each divinity that you're working with. And I've selected well, I've appealed to various goddesses and asked if they would help to balance that. So it's not like this is me making a choice of saying, Okay, I think that the strengths of this goddess helped to balance the weaknesses of this sign. Does that make sense.

It's not like they're necessarily the embodiment of the sign. I just feel like they'd be helpful in overcoming the challenges of each sign.

Speaker 3

You know, I used to just real quick, I used to like with it was kind of like planetary magic or maybe a little bit more into kabbala, but I would use like venus and net sock to kind of combat my over mars and areas. Yes, you know what I'm saying, because I'm definitely in aries like I need to combat that.

Speaker 4

I get into the kabbala a lot in lunar witchcraft. I don't I hardly mention it directly in elemental but it's still it's there if you know it's there, but it's I finally mentioned it broach the subject of how

this is, how this layers up in the Kabbala. But anyway, okay, so for let me start at the beginning Aries, I call on Athena, but I'm also working in the book works on the six axes that are formed across the zodiacal wheel of the year, because whatever is opposite works in tandem, so there are six pairings, and in astrology those are referred to as the axes. There's some axis of human consciousness that must be balanced and is paired across the zodiacal wheel. Aris is paired across the wheel

to Libra. I chose to stay for the most part within Pantheons. So I call Athena for Ares, hopefully bringing her wisdom as a means to offset the sort of violence of Mars. I guess in the potentially in Ares, offset to that is Libra. And I call Aphrodite as a goddess, because you know, Libra is ruled by Venus. But I chose her Greek form for that sort of grace and beauty and relationship. And so I've got Ares in Ephrodite.

Speaker 1

There.

Speaker 4

Then for Taurus, I've I've got Venus, the Roman sexy Venus, paired with across the wheel. In Scorpio, I've chose I wanted to appeal to Persephone as how I normally think of her, but because I'm using the Roman name Venus, I've chosen the Roman name Proserpina as queen of the underworld, to help guide the Scorpio side of that. And then Gemini,

I go into the Celtic goddesses. The ones that appeal to me for Gemini is Caroduin and her cauldron and the wisdom of her cauldron and the little bits of analytical sort of knowledge that go into her cauldron that ultimately feed into wisdom. But then on the other side of the wheel we have Sagittarius that balances that, and for that I choose the goddess Brigid at the forge, the very fiery forge aspects of the Celtic Goddess Brigid. Then we get down into Cancer and Capricorn that lie

across from each other. This is where, in a little off script, I had to do because it's not the same pantheon. When I first thought of doing this, the very like ooh I could do, I could I could approach the lunar work this way The very first goddess who barreled into my consciousness about blew me over is the Arisha goddess Yamaya for Cancer. I have a relationship with Yamaya that I don't think about as often as some of the others because I'm I'm I'm, I'm a

dedicand to Aphrodite and Hermes personally. But Yamaya wanted to be there. She's powerful now, But who wants to be on the other side of that. I don't really have a relationship with any of the other Arisha's not in the same way. But the goddess that came barreling in for Capricorn was Khalima of Hinduism, and the two wanted

to work together there, at least for my perception. So I've got Khalima as this sort of Saturnian goddess of time creation and destruction right there where winter Solstice crosses, you know, from Sagittarius and the Capricorn. We've got her as that liminal character, a mother and destroyer across the wheel there. So that's Cancer and Capricorn. And then for Leo, I end up in Egypt. I have a very special relationship with the goddess Bastet. She was originally seen in

a very lion leonine sort of way. She was a warrior protector for the god rab So very Sun, very Leo. But as Egyptian, as time went on in Egypt and she came more associated with domestic things and protection of children and joy and music and dance and sexuality and all of that sort of happy pleasure stuff, her name shifted to Bastet. So I'm specifically going with Bastett for Leo and joyfulness and creativity and music and dance and family and home and hearth, et cetera, with Leo across

the wheel for Aquarius. And this is inspired by the Crowley and Frieda Harris Toath deck their Aquarius. The star card is said to be nut and using specifically that that Crowley spelling of nut as nuit, which is the French word for night, for that goddess who is the vault of heaven, the the connecting constellation of stars for which we're all apart, that helps to ferry you into the afterlife, et cetera. So another other like fear. So

those are my goddesses, my twelve goddesses. I also have a Gaya as just like a general all purpose to work with that planetary system of Gaya and the moon. But if you notice, it's lunar witchcraft, but none of those are specifically lunar goddesses. There's enough books out there about lunar goddesses, there's plenty, there's thousands. I feel like he was covered.

Speaker 7

So I've been noticing a lot that people just sort of pass over the idea that space is feminine, right, So you've got father time and mother space, and like, we talk about space goddesses all the time, and it's really at the heart of the understanding of this duality in our cosmosis, that the interaction between time and space, and everybody focuses on this sort of yaoistic Saturnian character. It is this Chrono, but very rarely do they match

that up with Raya. Like you just hear about Cronos, very little about ray and Raya goes back through Kayballei and back to the very very agent past and it's right there as the space goddess. And then you see that as Nix and knew it and all these other very very early representations.

Speaker 4

Oh yeah, I do have in lunaritchcraft and mind you, this is only in first draft. It's with my editor right now, so who knows what it'll be when it comes back. But right now I do have a deep look at all the goddesses that are associated with the moon and all those ancient texts, and I do go very deeply into rayas and that role there. Yeah, so

it's interesting. Even in my own process of writing the book, I ended up the section three is all the practical magic stuff sections one and two or you know, information and et cetera. But the third part art is time to astrology. You know what phase of them, what phase of the moon, but also what sign is the moon

and what season, et cetera. And really looking at the mechanism of our cosmos has this magical It's like a machine and it's moving in these predictable ways, and there are times when certain things are so much easier to accomplish because the whole cosmos is flowing with that purpose

at that time. And it's interesting to me that as I was writing the book, I can think and work academically and like, oh, look, historically, these are all these goddesses and ideas and mythologies and stories that associate with these ideas. But then when I got to section three, who do we actually work with? Who's the actual magic with ended up being a whole different thing because I just sort of let spirit flow through. That's the clairvoyant

thing too. It's kind of like everything I do at some point becomes almost like automatic writing, because once I tap in and just going, it just flows through. And it's that image of the star card I think about. You know, she's holding the arth or touching this divine access to information that is everything and everywhere, and then she's flowing through and she's pouring it out on the earth.

I think about that a lot. I've got a lot of Aquarius in my chart obviously, but I see that as as my job when I write, And like I said, I do have a close devotional relationship with Hermes. It's just always been the way. And so I get to go in and he sort of takes over hermeis take the wheel. I don't mean for it to be like that, but I'm his priestest, so what can I say. That's what happens. He'll get his moment in solar witchcraft. He's

one of the gods. I do the same thing in solar I'm assigning a god to help with each of the signs, and then the Sabbaths, of course, would either be with the god that's the fixed midpoint of that sign or the transition the diad of two gods working together to help transition from one to the next. So I'm doing the same there, and Hermes is definitely on that list too.

Speaker 1

Nice.

Speaker 3

I like how you did use like like I was saying before, sometimes I wouldn't always kind of work on that sphere of that idea, but that I thought I was having problems with that we use something else like you're saying. You were using the opposite basically, you know.

Speaker 1

I like that.

Speaker 3

That's very interesting. I haven't seen too many people and not bringing because I did it that way. I just didn't see too many people do it like that.

Speaker 4

We have to you have to continuously remind yourself that everything has a yen and a yang, everything has the outward flowing the inward flowing. Everything that has a light cast a shadow. So even so, there's nothing in the cosmos that's all easy or all challenge, or all good or all bad. It it has to be balanced. That's its point. And so when I work with the sabbots. This is part of my ceremonial magic practice. It's not

just the Sabbat I'm in. I acknowledge that on the other side of the wheel there are the opposite is what is going on. And I call this the philosophy of the poison and the antidote, and I work with this in all of my things. The poison from one the moment you're in. The antidote to that poison is found in the strengths of the thing on the opposite side of the wheel or on the other side. If I'm dealing with one of the poisons presented by a very projective or masculine energy in something, how do I

balance that? I have to find what is the strength of the goddess that helps to nurture that. If I'm dealing with the negative of the goddess something or the receptive aspect that is challenging on this side, how do I cure that that poison? I got them distill an antidote from the opposite side. So what does the God bring to this situation at his strength? It's the you know what I mean? And so that's how I do everything. If I'm working so like when we're working the lunar stuff.

You know this, When the sun is in one side, the full moon will be in the opposite. The full face of the goddess is reflecting the light of the God at that moment, So you'll have and it's always the same mode. So it'll either be cardinal, fixed or mutable. It'll always be a projective or a receptive element. So air and fire is always paired, water and earth is always paired. If I'm the challenge of the moon full moon,

people get crazy the full moon. Why because there is the opposition, But there's a from the poison that we are presented. It's like it's it's unveiling this thing that we have to work on. How do we do that? We need to look where the sun is. What's the strength of the sign. And the sun is in right now that needs to be pulled as the antidote for the poison that you're being forced to reconcile right now. And that's how I do everything. That's how I do everything.

I look to the other side, and I tried to seek the balance and acknowledge that again there's nothing all good and there's nothing all bad. We've all had our we all have our moments. Everything in the under the sun, everything in the cosmos, it's not just the solar system. Everything in the cosmos has got strengths in its weaknesses, challenges and.

Speaker 2

Ease.

Speaker 4

And so that's the crux of my magic. It's identifying that. And that was all mapped out for us, thankfully by the alchemists and the occultist who came before us, Agrippa and Levi. And even if I don't believe everything they believed and I really can't stand reading that, I've read it so that you don't have to, and I've distilled it down in my book and given you the good parts version. Yeah, I find that challenging. But anyway, those guys did a lot of good work to help figure

out those things like this. Right, here's one of my favorite books. I told you the Anikey Hall. I love this three books of a cult philosophy, but I love it with the Donald Tyson.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Oh it's good and there's a lot of good stuff in there. It's or the Manly p Hall. You know, it's not like every word is something I want to carry the torch for. Like I mean, if any occultist starts to look like a Bible thumper, you know, like, oh, this is the undeniable truth of God and every word in here is exactly perfect. Well, I just don't listen. I don't listen to much more after that. Frankly, in a lot of ways.

Speaker 7

I think they've put to bed the idea of associations.

Speaker 4

Right, the ancient.

Speaker 7

Man had this vast list of associations in his head that he would use as a tool to remember things better. Right, the mnemonic device. All of the stuff about the gods and the goddesses and their associations and all of this stuff with nature has to do with creating a mind map that that everything in the world can fit into through associations. Yeah, I think we've lost that connection. But you know, when you talk to other occultists, it's like boom, I get it, I get it, Like all of these

things are fitting into place. So once you have the mind map, that's where your will can then go. And that's kind of what we're making is through all of these thoughts and stuff, it's a mind map for the will to absolutely reality.

Speaker 4

Absolutely I agree with you one thousand percent. And the mind map or the cosmic map, and you've got to figure out where you are on your map, and you've got to you've got to figure it out, like make me your own map maker, really where you're at. And it is very helpful to at least look at the maps of the occultis who came before us, you know, but that's their map. They can be informative. I've been

creating mnemonic devices. The reason why you excite me with what you just said is the associations the mnemonic devices. So to remember the those six paths well, by the way, I so the pinnacle path. Each element has a name of the path that you are walking while you're studying that. That's what I call it. And it says, if you're on your cosmic map, and you're laying out your own cosmic map, right, but you've got to explore the territory. So while you're walking the path of fire, I call

it the path of power. Where you're walking the path of water, I call it the path of love, Air, the path of truth, Earth, the path of sovereignty, spirit, the path of completion. All right, But once I got into lunar, now it's basically six paths that have each have a direction. Right, I'm either working on the Aris towards Libra or I'm working the liver towards Aries. But it's the same path, right, So it's like six or is it twelve? But how do you remember this shit?

The word beacon, beacon like at the moon. It took me a while to figure this out. B is the path of becoming. So while you're figuring out the mysteries of Aris to Libra, you are figure. You are working on the path of becoming. And so the magic is the magic of becoming. E is embodiment. When you're working Venus to Scorpio, you're working on this embodiment within the

balance of earth and water. There A is awareness. When you're working Gemini to Sagittarius, you're working your awareness, your perception of your world, your awareness of your place within it, et cetera. C is cultivation, the path of cultivation. So between Cancer and Capricorn, you're cultivating the sense of security within yourself and in your outer world when you're home and your your public life. Oh is the path of offering. How do you offer your light? How do you offer

your spark? So between Leo and Aquarius, it's how you're offering both as an individual, but also within like an individual star, we are all at a star? Or how am I offering my light within the greater constellation of mankind? And then n is the path of nourishment.

Speaker 7

So between I was gonna let her finish, but I was going to show you this. It's go ahead.

Speaker 4

Guess what I'm me seeing?

Speaker 7

Oh so this is the art of memory by Francis Yates, where she's going on over the memory palace techniques of Georgano Bruno. Oh yeah, Bruno. Right, he was this metaphysician that was absorbing all this knowledge from the ancient world, and he was passed around within the church and everything because he was seen to be like a mystic because of his memory powers that he absorbed from all of the ancient Greek manuscripts.

Speaker 1

Interesting on that.

Speaker 4

Awesome, I just realized I left off two of my goddesses. Because my path, my end, my path of nourishment is between Virgo and Pisces. I forgot to mention those two goddesses. Virgo is Demeter, Pisces is Hecate. So yes, we bring it back to Hakat again. But the nourishment of uh, you know, it's the whole that is again the salve at Kawagula, the virgo is breaking it down and do its parts. Kuwaigula is bringing it all back together again.

Speaker 2

Hecitate or Pisces needs hekita for sure.

Speaker 4

Absolutely right. There's a couple of there's a couple of those that I mean, of those goddesses that I feel like it could have been a number of a number of them, Like for Capricorn, it could be Khalima, it could be Lilith. I've been working with both. I guess it just came down to Khalima demanded to be in there, and Lilith was passive about it. So I was like, all right, well Kalima wins. But yeah she's she's very Capricorn to me. But yeah, that's so my nomadic device.

There was beacon follow the moon like a beacon anyway.

Speaker 7

You said, uh, Pisces really needs hecate, And that got me thinking about the three face Jesus. Yeah, the three face Jesus was actually banned from church. They couldn't do that anymore. The Father's said, and Holy Spirit could be depicted in a single face. Really, yeah, it could be something there.

Speaker 6

M hm.

Speaker 2

That's such a fun association.

Speaker 4

Man, You dig deep enough. Just about every divinity has got multiple faces, don't they. People love to do a triple something with any of these divinities.

Speaker 3

Was there anything else about the book or anything else you wanted to maybe talk about.

Speaker 4

Well, I do offer this as a course if ever, I was to try to market something. My online course. It took me years to develop. It's over one hundred hours of video, so many additional pieces of art and otherwise, you know, visual aids, graphics, additional documents, additional things that I've created over my career teaching witchcraft that are provided an addition to what's in the book, all the things that I was forced to cut from the book. And the book is a chunk. I mean, look at this.

I mean it's say, over four hundred pages, and I had to cut a bunch of stuff. So that's all back in the course. It's all just self paced study as you go. It's not like you meet at a particular time. I've created it as part of my sacred work, and I've put it into the world so that it can be found, you know, long after I'm no longer here, hopefully.

But it's a course on that starts at the very beginning So if you know nothing about paganism or occultism or witchcraft, but you want to know, it starts at the very beginning of the story, tells you where all of this stuff came from. Where do we get these notions from alchemy and from paganism and from gardener or wherever to make and it emits that it's relatively new, it's less than one hundred years old, and it's current configuration.

But we're trying to create something that will grow with the people as time progresses and not just be some static thing that, like I said, like an anachronism, like we're not trying to recreate the Renaissance or whatever. So I do teach that this starts at the beginning, but relatively quickly it gets into more deeper, more intermediate level

personal work. But it's meant for the solitary practitioner, or if a group of people wanted to do the course together and use it like a curriculum for a coven, that works too. But it is available on Heronmichelle dot com, and it is as like a once you buy the way into the course, it's there for you forever. You have lifetime access to it. You can go back and do it every year if you want. And all of the art my illustrations for like the candle wraps and

whatnot are in the book. Those are available by download and color you know, things like that. There's so much good magic in there, and it really has been well received by all the people all over the world have taken it at this point, I've had students all over Europe and Australia and all over America for sure, but

it's been really well received. So I would really hope for if my life work is anything, that as many people as possible take advantage of the content that I've created there with a team of excellent witches who've helped me create a really beautiful, high quality video product. But anyway, it's at Haromichelle dot com and so I would welcome everybody to go check that out. Also, my website is Thesojo dot com for my store, and I do sell my Goddess art products through my store.

Speaker 3

Also, one thing I did want to ask real quick because we kind of talked about it, and I think I saw you mentioned ben cheering on your show. I was playing this stuff earlier. I think you brought up like charge at the artist, M have you ever show a kind of a little bit of commonalities between that and I think I think it might be in the Book of the Law when is going on about the week.

Speaker 4

I think it was inspired by that, wasn't it.

Speaker 1

That's what I had assumed.

Speaker 4

But yeah, I believe that's what Duren Valiante says in her her book, uh Rebirth of Witchcraft. She's the one that refined the pro's version of what we would we call the charge of the Goddess. And she began that if I'm if, I don't want to tell her story wrong. But she got the material from Gerald Gardner, and because she had read Crowley, recognized where he had ripped it

all from. And I forget exactly which speech it is, but it's it's equal parts from a Rodia and a segment in something C one of Croley's books, and you went in and massaged it. She actually called it decrollifying it or something like that, or the she actually removed somewhat of that language so that it obviously wasn't a rip off. I think Joel Gardner expected Duren Valiante to not be an intelligent, well read woman, but she read his shit and was like, dude, I'm a better read

occultist than you. I know where you got all this, But she she massaged it and created some parts of you. But yes, it's definitely a conglomeration of many of several ancient texts or older texts. But yeah, Aradia and some crawly stuff and then some of her new stuff. I think she wrote the the parts that get into you know, I'm the beauty of the green earth and the white moon among the stars and the dust of you know, the feet of heaven, you know whatever, that all those parts were her.

Speaker 3

But yeah, no, I just thought that it seemed to be a common some common alitis in there.

Speaker 1

Oh, definitely, since you were open to that, off, I figure that.

Speaker 4

Sc I'm very open to that. But I mean I do like a credit, you know, a credit the proper source, you know, and so I do a lot of that too. But that's another thing that I really enjoy doing in my lunar witchcraft, because my original love is poetry. And when I tapped into doing just the lunar work, just the stuff with the goddess for as long as it took me to create the manuscript, talk about a cathonic gear but oh, so much poetry, so much art and poetry.

I mean, that's just the way the goddess flowed through me. But I've written many charges, you know, like I tap in, like I would like to work with this goddess. Is the what is the poetic language or the ritual the liturgy of this right, because there's twenty four different rituals just for the lunar work in my new book coming out. There's many more others also to get ready for it. But there's a full and a dark moon with bo

with all twelve goddesses. That's twenty four major rituals right there, the aspets that are in the book, and each one of them there are charges, you know what the goddesses delivering. I can't other than just saying I wrote a lot of poetry. I think it's channeled a lot of poetry, for better or for worse. It's things that wanted to be said by those goddesses, and so it's like spoken as if they are speaking it to you in the rituals. So it's a lot of liturgical poetry in my new

work that I'm very excited about. I'll write a charge, I'll write a charge, But I'd like to think that it was what those goddesses want wanted me to write at that time. I hope so. I hope so, and I hope that when other people read it they're like, they don't go, oh my god, this want is so full of our shit, it's full of herself. I really I try as a priestess. I tried to bring forth what Divinity asks me to bring forth without my ego stepping in the way, and unfortunately, my ego suffers a massive,

massive helping of what do you call that? Do you feel like a fraud? You feel like, you know, like I can't say that I pasture syndrome, that's it. I'm like, oh my god, I can't do that. And then I get that that's your job, Chika, just just write it down, and so I do. I do try to do that, and it's not really about me, but it is something beautiful that I am excited to be part of. So I can't wait for the new book to come out. I can't wait.

Speaker 7

I love your enthusiasm. It's awesome, it's infectious.

Speaker 4

I would like to think it's infectious as opposed to irritating. But you for thinking.

Speaker 2

So, when does your book come out.

Speaker 4

I don't know, okay. So usually with ll well And after you submit the first draft, they come back with notes, and then after you get the next draft to them, it's about a year from then. And I haven't heard back yet on the first round, so it'll be at least a year, if not longer.

Speaker 1

You're funny. If they have an email me about you and ask me to have you on a year from.

Speaker 4

That, well you need to get with Wellen. Find Marcus Robinson, not Robinson. Marcus said his name is Marcus Robinson's not it. That's a different Marcus. I know and write this minute. I'm having a brain I'm having a senior moment. You remember his last night.

Speaker 3

A lot of these places have like authors that are like people that I want to have on the show. I just have no way of contacting them or it's like they ain't gonna listen to me. So it's like, you know, that's why other reasons that I like for Lon Milo Duquet, I want to get him on.

Speaker 1

If I ask Lill Wellen, they'll ask me. You know what I'm saying, They'll ask him myself.

Speaker 4

So I love Lon Milo Duquette. He's one of my favorite writers, about the Toad Deck and about Kabala.

Speaker 3

I just got David Shoemaker to come on in the February. I don't know if you don't.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he actually cold me. What did I talk to me on the phone. I was like, oh fuck, I talked to him.

Speaker 3

I was like, oh my god, it sounds like I'm listening to Living at the Lima podcast, Like I like hearing his voice in my head. It was so weird. It was actually I was nervous too, I don't know, but yeah, cool cool, Uh, thank you so much for coming on. That was really an amazing talk. I really had a great, great time with you. Hopefully, hopefully we can maybe have you on again in the future.

Speaker 1

That would be great.

Speaker 4

Sure, well, especially once I know when the new book is coming out and I can actually do some more about that. I'll let you know.

Speaker 3

Oh yeah for sure, for sure. Yeah, well sure I'll come down at the shop too and see you again.

Speaker 4

So yeah, yeah, come down to the shop.

Speaker 3

Definitely. Was there anything else that you wanted to plug and remind people about. I know you kind of already just did it.

Speaker 4

I am definitely focusing my my were regular writings on substack. Substack is a great way to be able to get a newsletter or writings and whatnot that do not have ads every which way. It's so nice. I do offer every two weeks or so at least, but before each of the auspicious times for my lunar witchcraft work, so about ten days before every full moon, every dark moon, about ten days before every Sabbat. I'm posting an article with sort of a preliminary look at the way that

I'm approaching these lunar events in my new book. But I'm also providing some additional ways things that are not in the book of Celebrating are that would be for just an individual. Like, for example, coming up, we have the full moon and Leo, which would be with Bastett, but it's also the weekend right before Emulk, so that's

the high winter Sabbat. And so I was like, well, it's a good time to do sort of a combo thing, right, so you could do the full moon with Bastet and make some emilk vals for your great work for the year. And so I gave three recipes for Bastet inspired incense blends if you wanted to add that, And I say, why everything's in there, including like a riff on an old ancient hea fee recipe which is you know, well

documented from Egyptian practices. Yeah, and rituals and stuff you know with ideas, and I do a lot of poetry there. There's usually a chant or a blessing or an invocation or something that I write new just for the substack, and I always do it where there's a lot of really good, juicy stuff before the paywall. But honestly, I am trying to support myself with my priestess work, which

is a challenge. So I do have some additional things beyond a paywall for paid subscribers, and if anybody's got a couple of bucks they want to throw my way every month to see a couple of articles with all this stuff. And I also premiere all my new goddess

artwork and whatnot there. So you know, I'm trying really hard to make a lot of information available to anybody of you know, good intention and to find you know that doesn't cost a lot of money, because I want people to have access to these things, but I also am trying to live, so you know, if anybody wants to buy me a coffee as they say, with a subscription. That's where I'm posting my stuff now.

Speaker 3

Awesome, awesome, I'll uh if you don't mind the after the show, if you can email oh your links, I'll make sure I edit.

Speaker 4

I will do that, don't you worry. But seriously, if you just go to Heronmichelle dot com, you will find all the things, sign ups for my newsletter, all the links will be there. So great, thank you for this opportunity. It's been fun to talk about these things, and this was great.

Speaker 1

I really enjoyed the show. Thank you very much for coming on. Let it showed up and asked me too.

Speaker 4

Welcome to Greendal, Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 1

Judith.

Speaker 3

Would you like to let everybody know real quick again where they can find your amazing show?

Speaker 1

Oh you're muted?

Speaker 2

Uh?

Speaker 3

Sometimes some reason you yeah, like on your end something. Yeah, no, no, it doesn't sound right.

Speaker 1

It's been doing this a lot, yeah, some reason. Streamyroad is like, what the audio lately has been bad? It's really bad. Yeah, and you'rre muted still? Uh? All right, Headles, why don't you go let everybody know what's.

Speaker 7

Up with you so you can find me at the Headless Giant on YouTube, on Twitter and on Instagram too. Occasionally I get on there so you can find me there. And I've got shows that are at around seven thirty pm every weekday and then one on Sunday that is ten thirty which is the trilog. So check them all out. Thank you very much, very busy man Arrows.

Speaker 1

Everybody know what's up with you.

Speaker 2

Thank you so much, Haron for coming on.

Speaker 4

This was awesome view Arrows.

Speaker 2

You can find me on YouTube at Arrows Up, and you can find me on Twitter Arrows to eat those Uh yeah, thanks for having me on.

Speaker 1

Nick, It's great. I'm glad. I'm glad you O could make it. And again, Michelle, that was a blast.

Speaker 3

I really really thoroughly enjoyed here and your you know, your take on things and very uh. I like I like the mix of like kind of like ceremonial and witchcraft together, you know.

Speaker 1

I think I think you balance it out well.

Speaker 4

Throw some folk witchcraft from Europe and all the ceremonial magic and alchemy into one cauldron and you get you get wicked.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I like it. I dig it, so uh yeah, everybody.

Speaker 3

Eventually her links will be in the bottom if you want to check your stuff out and Judith I'll make sure I include Joe Lincoln there as well, so people you know, because you have a mic problems right now, sorry about that, and everybody in the chat that's what's up. Thank you all very much for joining in and commenting and watching the show. That's why we go live. And until the next one, everybody be well later

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