You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
What a.
Welcome to the Occult Rejects.
In this episode, we got a bunch of guests here and a very exciting book and stuff to talk about. Should be really interesting and maybe out there, and that's what exactly what this show's about. So but before we introduced these guests, let me introduce the other rejects.
Judith, what is going on?
How are you hi? Thank you for having me again. I'm Balloon Judas Swanson. Welcome to our guests today. I'm looking forward to the topic and you could find me on YouTube and on x as the Loon on I'm at the Loon fifty and I deal with more of meditation and self development. And that's it.
And thank you again.
Also, no, thank you. I appreciate you making it again. I appreciate it.
And Robbie March, sir, please let everyone out where they can find all your amazing work.
Please.
Yes, thanks for having me on. Nick.
It's always a great time to come hang out. And this is a topic that I'm extremely interested in, just in regard to consciousness and you know, the medicine for the mind, body and soul. I am an artist and illustrator. I do art for bands and festivals, different stuff like that. I've been in the industry about thirty five years and I come on to do this to have fun and talk about these different topics, you know, from philosophy to esoterica.
So yeah, thanks for having me on. And if anybody wants to check out my other stuff, you can check out my link tree which is link tree r m r X and that'll pull up all my miscellaneous links and ways that you can get a hold of me. So thanks for having me on.
Nick. Oh, of course, thank you for making it.
And uh yeah, our guests are the co authors of the eight second Ascension. That is a guide to metaprogramming the multi dimensional self, and that is written by Douglas s Wingate and doctor Rachel Tretsky. And we do have doctor J. Brown, David sorry, David J. Brown, who wrote
the forward. He is joining us and he's wrote twenty other books and he has done tons of interesting research, and together they've taken the classic Leary and Wilson lineage idea and reframed it for a modern reader who's trying to do the real work understanding conditioning, navigating altered states, integrating big experiences, and if we're being honest, figuring out who's actually holding the keyboard inside of our head. So yeah, we got the three of them and I will off.
We'll start off with you, Doug. Please let everybody know what's up with you.
Sure.
Yeah.
My name is Doctors are Wingates.
I mostly work as integrative neuro rehabilitation specialists, so I've been working in neurorehabilitation.
And a number of different realms for the last fifteen years or so.
I'm also a licensed pilocybin facilitator in the state of Oregon, so I've had the opportunity to legally facilitate hundreds of psilocybin journeys at this point. A lot of those have
been working with people who have history of neurotrauma. So I focus and do research and psychedelicasists in neuro rehabilitation in addition to being one of the co founders of eight Circuit Ascension alongside doctor Rachel and doctor David ha longtime interests in consciousness and self developments and psychonautics.
So pleasure to be here, No, thank you, this is this is awesome. I really appreciate you all coming and we got doctor Rachel.
What is going on?
Yeah, thank you so much for having us.
Yes, So, i have a PhD in clinical psychology with an emphasis in depth psychology and further training in psychdelicacist of therapy and particularly which is currently legal to work with KEDMIE assisted therapy. And I've just been really focusing the past couple of years as I worked towards licensure, just working on these projects, really focusing on the eighth Circuit Model and co authoring the book and other projects
with doctor Doug and David especially excited about. So we're working on the workbook currently for the main text, the eighth Circuit Ascension Workbook, and then also an oracle deck based on the d MT entities and the eight Circuit model.
Awesome, thank you so much, Doctor J. Brown sah please.
I'm David J. Brown. I am a writer, author, researcher. My background is in behavioral neuroscience. I was a researcher at New York University and the University of Southern California for a number of years. I did research into neophobia, which is the fear of novelty and electrical brain stimulation. And I'm also the author of twenty books about the evolution of consciousness. I've written books on lucid dreaming. I've written books on the d MT entity phenomena. I've written
books on the interface between science and spirituality. Most recently, my book is The Illustrated Field Guide to the d MT Entities, which was a springboard for the project that I'm working on with Rachel for the past year, which is an oracle deck that utilizes the different entities the
people encounter on their d MT journeys. And I worked with maps for a number of years the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies and UH And also I worked for five years with a British biologist, Rupert Sheldrake, about his research into the U the unexplained powers of animals, or the psychic power of animals.
That's awesome. Nice.
I've tried to get that guy on the show so many times. He's told me no, and I keep trying. Every six months. He's gonna get tired of here.
Yeah, he's he's very busy.
No, that's what he tells me. I honestly believe that's the truth. All think he's just blowing me off. I think he's honestly busy. That is awesome, man, I mean some things I think I would like to have you back on the show for some other topics you already mentioned. Great stuff, all right, So I guess I don't know, like I get maybe we'll go one at a time or something. But like I guess, the Doug like, what was it that?
What did you like? How did you find yourself getting into this?
Yeah?
I originally got into my consciousness studies early early on, so interested uh introduced to Taoism and the Dada ching in like thirteen fourteen, and then around age seventeen or so, ran across Robert Anton Wilson in Palell's books here in Portland. Just happened to run across looking through the metax metaphysics section, and Prometheus Rising was.
In there and just pulled me in.
I thumbed through it and got sucked in ever since and read through that a number of times. And then I was very fortunate before Bob's passing to be involved in his Maybe Logic Academy when he started teaching online, so had the opportunity to go through and work through the eighth circuit model with Robert Anton Wilson which was a huge blessing and growth for me for sure, And then a couple of years later similar offering from Mansaro Ali based on the eighth circuit model as well through
the Maybe Logic Academy, and then ultimately outside of that, I've done that training with him a few times before his passing. So it's been a long journey working with this kind of material and always foundationally just super interested in kind of the range of human experience or you know, how broad that experience can be and how we can continue to broaden it and better ourselves.
Thank you and doctor Rachel.
Yeah, so around the early two thousands, i'd say it was the first time I came across the eighth circuit model.
But also similar to.
Doug, early teening years, was really interested in consciousness studies and fell down the verbial rabbit hole, started experimenting with psychedelics and reading all kinds of spiritual literature, practicing all kinds of stuff. Eight circuit model is such a great
tool for really organizing and understanding those experiences and different ideas. Also, so similar to Doug, I was able to take a course with Antro Ali when he had his eighth circuit brain course, so just working in the field of psychedelics, though, I felt like this was just such an important tool that kind of because of Mary's reputation just to kind of fell into the fringes and really wanted to bring it out to the mainstream because I found it so personally helpful and.
This is great framework to be could be used and help so many people.
Thank you appreciate that. And David, please.
Let's see how did I get involved in this. I guess I've been interested in dreams and altered states of consciousness ever since I was a child, really, and I had my first LSD trip when I was sixteen years old, and a few days later had my first my first lucid dream spontaneously. And it was like right around that time when I was sixteen and tripping and first exploring these psychedelic states of consciousness that I came across Robert Anton Wilson's book Trigger and Uh. And that book really
was a cosmic trigger for me. I mean, it's pretty much my my It mapped out my whole life. You know that that book. Almost all the people that I've interviewed over the years and people I've worked with or people that I discovered through through reading that book, and it sort of started me on this quest. That's how I got involved in UH neuroscience research. And and I was very fortunate when I was when I was in my mid twenties, I wrote a science fiction novel called
called Brainchild. And when I when I when I was still in the process of writing the book and I had just found a publisher, I went to a lecture that Robert Anton Wilson was giving in Santa Cruz and waited for him. After the lectures, I wanted to ask him if he could possibly consider writing a blurb for the back cover of the book. And and I, you know, I got to work out my courage. I was all starstruck.
And I went up to meet him and I said, you know, I just finished this science fiction novel and I was wondering if maybe you could possibly write a you know, a little blurb for the back cover. And he did not seem very enthusiastic. He kind of because if I was like one hundredth person that day who asked him for a back cover blurb, and I was feeling kind of embarrassed. But he said, you know, just just mail it to me. And he gave me an address to mail it to, and I so I had
my publisher. It was called New Falcon at the time. What are they called now, Original Falcon. They keep changing their name, but they were called New Falcon at the time, and they and they mailed my manuscript to Bob, and I was thrilled to discover that he wrote an eleven page introduction to the book, not just a back over blur. But you know, he was my he was my hero, and having him do this was just, you know, it was just absolutely one of the most magnificent things that's
happened in my life. And and as a result of that, I went to go visit him when he was living in Los Angeles, and he invited me to come to his weekly gatherings he did, you know, sort of book readings and discussion groups every week about his books, about other people's books like James Joyce, and we would sometimes watch movies and talk about them. And I went to
Bob's meetings once a week for about twenty years. So he became a very close friend of mine, and I was really fortunate to be able to spend a lot of time talking to Bob about philosophical ideas and creativity and politics and consciousness expansion and all those wonderful things. And I think he's truly one of the greatest geniuses
that our speeches has produced. So it was through him that I discovered the eighth circuit model of the brain, of course, and the eighth circuit model, I think is just, you know, it's just the best psychologist psychological model to explain not only you know, the mundane states of consciousness that everybody the experiences, but you know, also the higher
states of consciousness. And it's based upon uh, the law of octaves, you know, the uh, the uh you know, which we see represented and the colors of the rainbow and the notes of the musical scale and uh and and it was really Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson's stroke of genius to apply this to the the evolution of consciousness and to UH and to the and to
human development. So so I was thrilled. You know, Rachel and I were experimenting with some altered states of consciousness a few years ago, and it was during that experience that we thought we really should you know, update this you know, this model and uh you know, and and bring it up to date with with modern neuroscience and with all the the new breakthroughs and all the different fields of science that it that it has relevance to.
And uh and that was the that was the original inspiration for for how this how this book originally came together.
Oh, Robbie or Judith, there was anything you wanted to ask?
Yeah, I wanted to ask if you could explain because not all of us are familiar with the eighth circuit model that you're speaking of. If you could just expand on that for us.
You want me or Doug or who original who do anyway?
One?
Well, Well, the eighth circuit model, like I said, it's it's based on the law of octaves, you know, which is which was originally developed from chemistry. That there's basically eight different chemical groups that that repeat or that break
into different types of chemical formations. And we we've people have been able to see that that that same pattern is represented in the colors of the rainbow, red, orange, green, yellow, indigo, violet, and the musical scale door and the fossil lati doo, and it's represented in virtually every every aspect of nature.
And when you apply it to to psychological development, there's you know, there's basically eight different stages and uh, and those are the you know, the you know, the survival stage, the emotional stage, the intellectual stage, the social sexual stage, the neurosomatic or or esthetic stage, neuroelectrical, neuro neurogenetic, and then neuroatomic. And they as you escalate up the scale, you there are you know, greater degrees of freedom and uh and greater degrees of of of of century exchange.
So so it's it's it's it's really just an incredibly brilliant model for being able to help understand psycho psychedelic experiences. In particular for me at least, that was why I was so drawn to it, because because the the stages are just so you know, they're so carefully they're just so carefully expressed, and they sort of fit into this wonderful sequence model. But maybe Doug or Rachel can add to that.
Yeah, sure, thank you so much, David. That's I guess just an.
Absolutely true and another way that we've come to kind of discuss this as well is sort of different types of intelligence that each human has the capacity to tap into or navigate. And so, as David mentioned, we have
kind of the bodily intelligence or somatic intelligence. We have emotional intelligence, we have rational intelligence, we have social intelligence, sensory intelligence where we've become consciously able to work with and alter our sensory experiences and expand that meta intelligence where we become more self aware and self conscious around how our thinking patterns and our belief systems, and once we become more aware of that, we have the opportunity
to again take conscious control and alter those in a way that might be more efficient for us. And then there's a sort of a collective intelligence where we have a lot of young and archetype type material and epigenetic material that kind of bonds us all as a species.
And then there's unitive intelligence, which is a lot of the transpersonal, mystical, non dual ego transcendent states that can come out of the psychedelic states or other practices that lend themselves to these altered states of consciousness or these
types of intelligence. So the model works is a great framework to be able to have an informed discussion around that and an understanding of kind of where people are operating or where people may maybe want to do personal work or might be tapping into with their altered states and.
Also to just how we work with the model as quote unquote metaprogrammers.
So that would be circuit six.
So that's the intentional you know, exploring what are your belief systems, how have you been conditioned throughout your life, and then being able to question and potentially alter those intent by choice with intention and trying to like what is your authentic self and or so this also fits in with like this audience as the cultist, where you're trying to decondition your pre programs, so that also can lends itself to healing, but also the development of these
higher senses, so like in terms of you know, astral projection or psychic phenomena and nusis the experience of the Holy Guardian angel and so on. So that like circuits sists is sort of stepping into the role of a magician and you know, again working with both then the lower circuits and also kind.
Of the access point between the lower and the upper circuits.
Yeah, for sure.
So a lot of our conversations when it comes to the use of ritual or ceremonial practices or.
Cult practices.
Kind of falls into and can be looked at from that perspective of meta cognition or meta intelligence as ways to sort of step out of or introduce states where we can become more self aware and more self empowered.
And so that's kind of how all of those fit into this.
And Rachel Myo's work is really focused on that meta programming or that meta intelligence, and so it's really interesting to have a conversation with people around how that's been not overtly you used, but has been used within these practices, you know, across culturally for centuries millennia.
So I've got a question.
I've got a copy of a monograph of Timothy Leary's Exopsychology where he talks about is this the same type of system?
It is the same system, it is the same model.
Yeah.
Yeah, So Timothy Leary's work exo Psychology was his his I guess, main book that really focused in on this model, and it took the perspective of bio evolution, so it was taking a look at the evolution of consciousness on a species type level.
And so yeah, that's exactly.
And then Robert Anton Wilson's work with Prometheus Rising brought that more into an individual development in the individual psychology and then Antaro Ali's work brought that into sort of a more personal ritual type dynamic.
All right, anybody else got anything before I go off?
I do have a question, and I hope I'm not going off the topic. I did mention I was going to ask this, But in your studies while you were conducting your research for this, did you also deal with the veterans dealing with PTSD and how does and if you did, how did it affect them and how did what kind of results did you get from that?
So, as we mentioned, I work with veterans a fair amount with PTSD and UH and Regil might be able to speak to her work with MAPS in that. I'm not sure how much you how much detail you want to get into that, but Rachel, do you want to speak a little bit to that?
So well with respect to the eighth circuit model is we haven't done any work personally with the circuit model and veterans, but yeah, so I do have been working with.
MAPS for the past.
Thirteen years or so working on their MDMA PTSD studies and to qualify for those studies.
It was like people who had.
Like such severe PTSD that basically they tried so many different modalities and really nothing was working. And so the MDMA trials were amazing because what they found was that like about I can't I forget which phases was which, but like one of the Phase one I think was about seventy six or so percent of the participants running to diagnose with PTSD anymore, and somewhere in that range,
you know, for Phase two, it was really unfortunate. There's like been a bump in the road to getting MDMA officially legalized retleased for psychedelica SISTE therapy at this point, but there's just so much amazing research that Max had done that just shows how it's been life changing for so many people. So hopefully moving forward, you know, they could figure out all these these little things that the FDA wants changed, and but.
You know, because there's so many more people that it could be helping, But we'll see.
I think it's interesting when you go back and you look in history in regard to Roman history and the
Khaki and how everyone participated in the mysteries. It was the idea of knowing thyself and coming into the you know, and having these certain societal like understanding with the self and the society and then you move that up into like Timothy Leary doing the alcoholics and the various addictions with LSD treatment in the prisons, and he had what like an eighty three eighty five percent success rate, you know, when you step back and look at the program as
a whole. So I think there's a lot of fundamental sound value in the use of these substances for the purpose of helping to help people step back from themselves and be able to see things in a larger perspective so that they're not so directly tied in with the experience of the self in certain ways, if you know what I mean.
Yeah, and Rachel's very familiar with it. So you remember what the percentage was.
I want to say it was about two thirds.
Yes, yeah, I thought it was eighty percent.
It was high. Yeah, it was very impressive.
Yeah.
Mention, I'm sorry you mentioned FDA.
Is there uh restraints with your progress to make adjustments?
So it's it's maps they've been doing these studies for. When did they start, David.
Do you know in this maybe around in two thousand and five or two thousand and seven, somewhere around there, I think was the beginning of the m d M A PTSD studies. Yeah, but they.
Got you know, and at one point, it was in twenty seventeen, they got fast tracked because they it was just such compelling evidence that you know, this was going to be this breakthrough treatment, and so phase three was put on this fast track for approval.
And then it's just I guess there's just these you know, the.
Way that they went about the study design where it was considered it wasn't as like scientifically repeatable because it's like a very non directive approach. So just things that they have to take in terms of the therapy itself, because the FDA tends to deal with food and drug administration, right, but now you're bringing in therapy and so and then there were some ethical things that they had concerns about.
So there's all these like little things that it's not about the efficacy of the treatment itself, but just complying with certain regulatory standards that they want to see. Unfortunately that impedes other people outside of these studies from getting this treatment, but it is extremely promising and hopefully we can move forward with that.
And we're sitting at a pretty similar place with psilocybin right now. That's it's it's going through a couple different Phase three trials and there's expectation and talk about that going before the FDA for consideration for rescheduling within as soon as the next six months or a year or
something like that. That's mostly focused on depression, and then you know, if that goes forward, and it's similar to with the MDMA, it's been fast tracked, it's been considered a breakthrough therapy in both of the phase three trials that are looking at getting finished up pretty quickly. Then that would certainly open it up to more research, more access, and being able to focus on PTSD as well, which there's ample preliminary research showing that, and then hopefully getting
more funding toward specific populations like working with veterans. But it's kind of one of those one step at a time type things, especially when it comes to the federal level, the FDA.
Well, and like you said, the federal level, but also there's state different states. Obviously in Oregon, so solicide he legally facilitates psilocybin journeys for folks, and then New Jersey, I believe wants to legalize psilocybin for therapeutic purposes. I think Texas was it that who's legalized BOGA.
I think that New Jersey just did. Actually, I think they just did.
Yeah, in Colorado and Michigan as well.
Yeah.
New Mexico is also best legislation, So you know, it's kind of like state by state.
I've been really fortunate here in Oregon.
We've been able to do legal facilitation for about three years and it's been incredible. We've had people fly in from all over the country or all over the world internationally to come in and do journeys because it's one of the few places that you can legally access it in a.
You know, in a true framework of structure of support.
Yeah, that's what I call reject field trip.
Right then come on over, Oh man, that'd be fucking whild want to ask since.
What is a You might have mentioned it maybe within explaining certain things, but I would just like to ask us a question.
What is a circuit? In practical terms?
A circuit is so originally.
It was referred to as the eighth circuit model, and then over the years as authors and people who have been working with the material, it's kind of used different terminology as well. So it's been called the eight circuit model, has been called eight dimensions of mind. We've called it the eight dimensions of self or eight dimensions of intelligence, and so circuit Originally, I think, well, David might be able to correct me here, but that was more of
Timothy Leary's original verbision in terms of brain circuitry. So, you know, a lot of the conversation around the time that this was originally coming out was there's a big boom in understanding of the human brain and preliminary neuroscience, and so there were a lot of metaphors flying around correlating or talking about the brain as.
Sort of a biocomputer.
You know John Lily's work Metaprogramming the bio the human biocomputer, So I think he was born out of that, and I find it really interesting working in neuroscience myself, is that we've kind of almost come around full circle where you know, we have an understanding that it's not exactly operating the way that it used to be looked at like a like a computer, but there are circuits, or there are large scale brain networks that are operating, and
many of these have to do with different neurotransmitter tracks and things like that. And so it's it's kind of like come back into the conversation in terms of neural circuitry. But David, would you say that's correct.
Yeah, that's that sounds right. I mean in a circuit, I mean he's basically on an electric circuit, you know, like in an electrical system. It's like you know, a looping you know, a looping electrical flow of current. And he was trying basically to Tim was trying to use the latest technology, which you know basically was the computer as a metaphor. John the Lee was doing the same
thing with the programming and metaprogramming the human biocomputer. There's just there's been kind of throughout the you know, the evolution of psychology is you know, the latest technology is sort of always what they based the brain or the
mind on. You know, Originally if you look in old psychology textbooks, you know when I was when I was a kid, I remember there was like, you know, they use the telephone model, like you know, telephone operating system, and you know before that they use the kind of like Freud used like the steam engine as as as the metaphor for the how the brain and the mind work.
So you know, that was the latest was the was the computer, and then kind of virtual reality, but but it was it was sort of an you know, sort of an attempt to use the latest technology technology as a as a metaphor for understanding the most the most complex system that we know, the brain, which is really be you know, it's way more complex than a computer
and whatever. Our next technology that we develop will probably use that as a metaphor, because the brain is not not a computer, but it functions in many ways like a computer, if you if you want to use that metaphor.
I've actually already seen an article recently referencing AI as being a new model, like, oh, this is refinding this is how the brain works.
So yeah, what do you think is the biggest like the biggest misconception people have about psychedelic therapy first versus psychedelic coaching integration.
I think the biggest misconception is that psychedelics are fun when it's it's really a lot of work, you know, and it's not always fun, and it's it's soft and scary and you have to I mean, it certainly can be fun, you know, but but I think that's a misconception that's sort of in the public mind is that
people use these things just for fun and recreation. When you when you use it for therapy, it's really you know, it's confronting your the darkest parts of yourself and a lot of the things that you didn't know were there. So it's, uh, it's you know, it's it's definitely not necessarily always fun.
Yeah, definitely echo that I've found that to be a semi common comment after people come in and do sessions with us, is that they were expecting lots of you know, giggle fests and rainbows, and.
It's not always that.
I've definitely some people do have those experiences and that's wonderful and you know, it's full, full bliss the entire time. And then often it's a lot of deep, hard work to be that they're working through, you know, bits of their psyche, parts of themselves that they they don't or haven't given attention to for a variety of different reasons. And so that's it's definitely a fairly common comment that we'll get that it's a lot of work.
This kind of gets into the idea of the chapel perilous mm hmm in regard to you know, going through that that phase of you know, the distinction between knowing and insanity. Yeah, yeah, And if you're not familiar with the idea of chapel perilous, Chapel perilous is a descriptor
that's used in the circuit model language. I think Bob used it first, and David, I know that you can probably speak to the story of why he's used that, but I mean it's something that's had different terms in different practices.
Over and over again as people are going through this sort of path of self awareness or self growth, and so you know, the dark Knight of the soul crossing, the abyss, the Negredo stage, all of these things. Chapel perailyss is kind of another term that's used to speak to this period of time where there can be significant
destabilization or de identification with self. And so it can be a really difficult phase to navigate when you start breaking out of some of the rigid thought patterns that we've become so used to in navigating the world and opening our perspective to much larger concepts beyond just our individual self or beyond the personal ego. And so yeah, that's that can be a big part of the journey for sure.
I could just say add that the chapel peralyst it's a term that comes from King Arthur and the Knights at the Roundtable, and the chapel perilliss was what you enter when you're sort of going through an initiation into a into a into a higher order, and it was you know, it was Robert Anston Wilson's I mean strokempunions to use that term to describe, you know, the dark night of the soul or these periods of chaos between you know, one level of understanding and a higher level,
and it's sort of I think it's a very noble and romantic way of saying, you know that you're fucking going crazy and you don't know what the hell is going on, but you would calling a chapel perils gives it this kind of, you know, noble kind of kind of air to it.
Yeah.
And also Stetisov growth and a lot of his research with psychedelics, he talked about spiritual emergencies and he has a whole book on spiritual emergencies and that would also very well fit into a lot of what's going on there.
Dave, I have any other questions kind of a question because it sounds like the book itself is guiding you through this, but do you recommend having a certified therapist go through this with you or can you do it on your own as a solo thing.
So we've written the material with different audiences in mind, and it's material that a lot of individuals have navigated.
On their own as they're so motivated.
Some of the earlier works, Prometheus Rising has a number of exercises that you work with throughout the book geared toward working.
With that as an individual.
So if you're a self motivated psychoonod and really interested in your own personal journey, it's.
Accessible in that way.
And the workbook that we're finishing up is intended to be much more geared toward that, but also a compliment where you may be working with certified practitioners professional therapists who are familiar with the model and can be helpful guide posts or be in a position to kind of figure out where might be the best starting point or where to focus. And so that can be an incredible
resource to have a professional who's first in that. But we know that there are a lot of psychondaduts out there that do their own self exploration, and we also wanted to allow that material to be accessible to that audience too.
Thank you all right.
Questions when people come out of like of a big session with like cosmic downloads or.
Whatever, they cool, what's uh, what's your process.
For grounding it without dismissing it without dismissing it.
Yeah, so at least I can I can speak to the way that I work with When people have these those type of situations where they have the big cosmic downloads or large epiphanies, they can sometimes be destabilized and or just really hard to.
To process. They're there in the moments, And so.
Something that I emphasize for a lot of people is that you don't need to make meaning of it right away. It's okay to sit with that material and see what grows out of it. You can consider that experience a catalyst or planting of a seed that then, if you give it the right environment, has the opportunity to continue
to grow and expand. And so when I'm working with somebody, we wanted to kind of figure out how much of that we want to leave open and how much grounding might be really helpful if they are feeling very stabilized, if they're having a trouble sort of finding themselves again or finding a grounding. So we take into account how much we want to keep open and keep kind of soft boundaries around, so there are ways to work with that.
You know, if somebody has a big cosmic download, familial or transgenerational trauma, or entity encounters or something like that, that's where we would bring in exercises or integration practices that are much more open in terms of the way that they work. So it would be something like art based or archetypal type integration. We do collage making or music making and things like that as a way to sort of explore that territory without locking it into defined meaning.
At the same time, if somebody is feeling really destabilized and like disattached from their body, they're having a hard time bringing themselves back in the body, then we would take into consideration other parts of the eighth circuit model where we would focus on, like circuit one, the somatic experience, the somatic intelligence, and do exercises they really focus on increasing introceptions, so an awareness around your body and what's
going on, so breathing, paying attention to your heart, rate doing things that literally ground you, so going out and doing horticulture therapy or gardening, or just touching the ground, working with water.
If somebody has a difficult.
Time in putting their experience into words, then you can focus more on journaling and what would be considered circuit three material. Whereas if there's more of an emotional dysregulation or a hard time knowing how you feel about the experience or attaching or processing emotions through that, then you can focus more on what would be considered circuit to material focused on the emotional intelligence.
So it's one of.
Those things that really can be different for everybody depending on where they where they're at, and what's going to be most supportive for them to work through that process in.
A meaningful way without.
Meaning making too quickly and pulling somebody out of the potency of that experience.
Is that something that you've come across, well, is that something you come across where sometimes people after these experiences might feel like they're kind of stuck in between both, you know, or like feel like they're not like I think you kind of say to yourself, like they're almost like kind of not fully back.
Yet, like you know, we so in general with psychedelic work, there's like preparation the experience and then integration.
And in that kind of.
Post session prior to integration, we really emphasize on the book we face and there's just it's that sort of like you're coming back out of this experience. You potentially have these downloads and maybe some realizations things you want to work on, an integration to apply. But if you jump back out in the world, it's going to kind of be jarring potentially and jostle you, and you're going
to lose that focus. Like a like when you have a dream, if you write it down, sometimes it's like five minutes later even you're just like, oh, what was that and you forget it.
So it's so important.
To take that time and that space to kind of stay with the experience to kind of you know, even if it was a negative experience, you know it felt like a very adverse or challenging experience, you know, it could be a really fertile ground for healing and exploration, and so it's so important to have that you know,
that that that space to really explore those insights. And as Doug said, there's different activities that one can do to to further that exploration as you're bringing that into your your real life, grounding that into your your quote unquote like concess is reality experience. So I'm sorry, do you want to continue with that?
Well, I'll just say that that some of that work is also self driven when I'm working with people in their integration of those experiences. So we have an integration packet then we send out afterwhere that has a variety of different approaches and and some of it is journaling exercises as some of it is art based, some of it is movement based, and then you know one's own intelligence, you are sometimes intuitively drawn to a particular exercise and
that could be really helpful. So we do leave it open as well, and you know, a lot of the time we're kind of drawn to the different practices that are going to be most supportive to us.
Yeah, anybody have any anything else you want to use?
Yeah?
I was I was wondering in regard to these different separated substrates of the experience that you go through, are these in these be correlated with brain weighs, states that are specific like transcendental meditation or kind of things that we can see, like you were talking about how it overlays with frequency and color and you know, sound and even getting into the seven chakras and the Earth itself and the seven continent. I mean, you just look at
this reality is made up of sevens. So I'm just wondering, is there a direct correlation between brain wave states and and these experienced psychological states.
That you that you go through. It's definitely something that we explore in the book.
In every section, as we're discussing a circuit, we discuss neurobiological correlates and and where some of the research is around that, where there's some of the brain research is, so it becomes particularly interesting. You know, it's pretty well established with the first four circuits. The first four ciccret circuits are we considered the terrestrial circuits or or the
mundane circuits of developmental psychology. They overlap very well with standard models of developmental psychology, and so they pretty much pinned down a lot of the neurobiology as we grow and evolve into adulthood over time. And that's that's definitely in the book. We talk about that for sure, how different hormone systems come into play during different stages of developments.
Or critical windows of development.
But it gets really interesting when we start talking about the upper four circuits, which are more of the trans personal states, and so like circuit five that has a lot more to do with that conscious development of our sensory experiences and is associated with blissful, rapturous states. They've found, you know, there's there's dopamine correlates, but really strong correlates to the endocannabinoid system. And you know what, I saw
a paper fairly recently. I was talking about runners high and circuit five is all about getting high in different ways, whether or not it's psychedelically.
Induced or just different ways of living life where you.
Feel the static state, the six static sensory state, And for a long time, runners high has.
Been talked about as you're endorphins.
You get a lot of endorphins going and you feel high off of that and it feels great.
But recent research has.
Shown that it actually activates more of the endocannabinoid system, so our own bodies cannabinoids that are activated during that sort of state. And with circuit six, the metaprogramming, there's strong correlation to relationships to serotonin. So a lot of your classical psychedelics for instance, that activate that work on
the serotonin receptors. At the same time, there's a lot of neuroscience taking a look at the dynamic between different brain regions and networks, specifically the default mode network, and so there's a lot of research taking a look at that and how that changes during those type of experiences. Again, whether psychedelically induced or induced through ritual ceremonial practices, meditation practices,
and things like that. There's a lot better understanding of the sort of neural correlates of meditation and what that actually does and allows to happen in our brain. And with circuit aid, the most I guess expansive state that's associated with the non dual states or those mystical experiences. You know, they've been able to take a look at will There's less people that tend to experience that, so there's less research on it.
There is.
They are finding relationships to like waking dream states, So there's a lot of similarities between what our brain is doing during the rem cycle of sleep, the rapid eye movement phase of sleep, and then these unitive or trans personal states, and so there is more and more hard line neuroscience that we're able to take a look at we definitely do in the book.
That's great, you know, yeah, yeah.
I just wanted to add it might be good to point out at this point so people kind of understand the different brain circuits better, is that one of the things that Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson didn't developing their model of the eight circuit brain is is they correlated each circuit with a different drug and by thinking about how how the different drugs affect us and give
you some insight into the different brain models. So, for example, the first circuit, which is all about survival and and safety is is activated by by by opiates or opioid type drugs. The second circuit, the emotional circuit, is largely activated by by alcohol, and the third circuit is largely you know, which is the the intellectual or rational mind circuit is activated by caffeine, amphetamines or cognitive enhancers or
what people call smart drugs. The fourth brain circuit is activated by md M A or some people say valium. And those are those first four circuits are basically the circuits that they say are for terrestrial organization, for living life on Earth, and for surviving on Earth, and then the four higher circuits are they postulated for living beyond the Earth, for living in zero gravity, for living in a post larval or post human stage of existence that
we're evolving to in the future. And they think that, you know, just being in zero gravity helps to activate these circuits. For example, Edgar Mitchell I think he was the third or fourth man to walk on the Moon. I interviewed him for one of my books, and he described how when he was in an outer space he had these very profound mystical and psychic experiences that almost sound like a profound LSD trip. And then so there's
the four higher circuits. The fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth circuit are are activated by by cannabis, by by l s D, by you know, by magic mushrooms, ayahuasca. And then the highest circuit, the eighth circuit is is activated by by ketamine or or d M T. So. So these that's why I discussed at the beginning how it was such an interesting map for being able to to being able to fight a framework for these for these
different states of consciousness that different drugs produce. But but with all these all these different states are of course they're they're there because there there's a circuit or there's a there's a uh you know, a portion of the brain that that you know, the corresponds to these and they wouldn't you know, it's not like the drug is
producing it. They're already lying there late. And there's course, you know, they can be accessed to many other different ways besides drugs, but drugs are a clear, easy way of understanding them. So anyway, I hope that provides some additional insight into this.
Yeah, that's great, thank you, That was great.
Mhm.
How do you guys deal with I think before were you saying like you kind of classify like entities or deities. I wanted to ask, like, how do you treat entities and visions as literal psychological or both? Or how do you decide in session of the classify things.
I think David might have the expertise here.
Well, I mean, I don't. I don't. I don't work with people like like like Doug and Rachel do. I mean, I'm not a therapist, but but I mean I I I've just read a book on you know, and cataloging the different entities that that people report during their mostly during their their d m T or DI mental trip to mean experiences and uh and how how do how do I treat them? I mean, I treat them like a mystery or a profound mystery. I know, I don't
think we we we we know what they are. I mean I explore different models for understanding them in the book and in my own research with it that they you know, that they could be just you know, hallucinations, They could be projections of the mind. They could be archetyped from the collective unconscious, you know, and or they could be independently existing dimension you know, entities that exist
in alternative dimensions that we're really contacting. I mean, we we don't really know, and we we never may really know for sure, because I mean, I mean, how do I know you guys are conscious? I mean, how do I know anybody else is conscious? Really, there's there's no scientific measure of consciousness. You know. All we can do is base it on, you know, our experience and how it seems to us. And and I can tell you this.
You know, almost everybody who has a you know, a powerful experience with d MT, they come back and they say that was absolutely real, that was you know, that was, you know, more real than this. You know this, this is the world that seems like a dream. So you know, so so so based on person experience, they certainly, you know, they seem intelligent and conscious. They seem more intelligent than us,
you know. But as to whether that's a projection of our minds or you know, a simulation, or who knows. I mean, it's a profound mystery.
I think, yeah, thank you.
With the popularity of d MT and everything, I'm only going by what I hear. And yes, it's basically through Joe Rogan, because that's what he's one of the biggest advocates for it. It sounds like when he discussed it, everybody, it doesn't matter who they are, always speak of the same type of entities.
Then yeah, it's not necessarily always the same entities, but we I mean we catalog in our book twenty five different of the most common entities because there's a lot of them that people doing, you know, very commonly encountered. But I mean, really there's hundreds of different entities that people describe. It's not like they always but you know, the some of the most common entities are like what they term the self transforming machine elves, the gray aliens
that people report. Also in the alien abduction reports, fairies like the fairy sightings are reported. Reptilian type beings, octopus type beings, clowns, and gestures are commonly reported. Yeah, so it's you know, why these types of beings are so commonly encountered, is like again, it's a it's a profound mystery.
You know, we really don't know. Is it are the archetypes and you know what you know young would have called the collective unconscious or is or are they you know, corresponding to some type of genuine, you know, interdimensional species that we're you know, we're on the verge of being able to catalog in a in a more biological way.
Yeah so, I guess to your your question as far as working.
With that with people when people have those type of experiences, the approach is very similar to what David was talking about. It's one of the those situations where you know, it's it's a recurring experience that many people have. There are many overlaps or very many similarities either in the entities that are experienced or what that experience.
May look like.
But it also goes back to what I mentioned earlier in terms of not trying to make too much meaning right away out of the experience and approaching it with a bit of an openness, a receptivity to the experience and what might develop out of that, so you know, you don't necessarily have to adhere to a perspective that it is, you know, an external entity that is on another dimension that we're getting access to, or you don't necessarily have to immediately subscribe to this as a part
of my psyche that is being brought up and presenting itself as this particular archetype.
But we tend to.
Focus more on what may what insight might be brought out of that experience more so than what these entities actually are, at least until we can do more research and get more information about it, and maybe you have a better idea.
And right now and right now going on is the extended state d MT trial. I was just going to bring that up, yeah, the Imperial College. And because normally a d m T, I mean d m T is naturally found in the human body. It's not actually a drug, it's it's hodogynist and the human human system. It's probably a neurotransmitter of some kind, whether we don't know what function it serves, We have no idea. Again, that's another mystery.
You know, d m T is found in every animal, is found in it's in every mammal, it's found in you know, many plants, and no biochemist has any idea, you know what what function it serves in any of these places. So it's really a profound mystery.
We're learning not exactly the same, but similar questions that are that are not coming up around ssalicida as well, and it's strong association to the serotonin receptor as the
two A receptor. In particular, some of the more recent paper system the last few years are are taking a look at how molecularly almost identical silicen, the metabolite of psilocybin, is to serotonin, and their speculation that the serotonin system that our brain has developed, serotonin, the neurotransmitter as we understand it now, might not actually be the original ligand that the system was built out of, but it may have been an adaptation of a relationship with psilocybin mushrooms.
Right, Yeah, And let me just also, I was going to say about the d mt X trials that are going on. You know, d MT is because it's naturally found in the body, the body is able to metabolize it extremely quickly, so the experience only lasts you know, five or ten minutes, which is why you know, when people do it with in a n Ayahuascar grew, they do it with an MAO or a monoimmune oxidated you know,
inhibitor which prevents the breakdown so quickly. But when when you smoke, when you smoke DMT or vaporize it, or do it in the kind of concentrations that allow people to sort of enter into what people call hyperspace where they kind of leave this world and enter into another another dimension. That experience only lasts five or ten minutes.
And what they're what they're doing and at the Imperial College in London and around five other places around the world is there is they're using a kind of a kind of intravenous system where they're where they're where they're sort of keep peeping the levels constant in their blood, so they can stay in this state for extended periods of time, for you know, for a half an hour,
an hour, or potentially much longer. So this will give us, you know, greater opportunity to be able to dialogue with these entities and be able to see if there's really
some kind of some kind of reality to this. I don't know what the proof would be, but you know, but if we can come back with some kind of new scientific knowledge or or you know, tech logical brute plants to create starships or time machines or matter transporters or new forms of energy or I don't know what kind of science fiction technologies could come out of it, but that would not constitute some type of genuine evidence that these that these entities really have an independent existence.
Right right, It's very interesting for sure.
Yeah, Doug, how how do you administer it? I guess.
How do we administer it?
Yeah, so we work exclusively with psilocybin over here in Oregon. That's what's that's what's legalized, and that's what we're able to get people access to. Uh. So it's it's either dried dried mushrooms, dried fruit and body. Some of it comes as a homogenized powder form. Uh And we're usually at this point most people are pairing that with orange juice or lemon juice because it helps metabolize the mushrooms faster,
so it's less demand on the system. But now we've got a couple of companies that are making gummies and chocolates.
Wow, God, how long is that? How long does that normally last? One?
It's usually depending on the dose, four or five hours or so, but I mean individvidual metabolism definitely varies. I've had some people who metabolize it particularly quickly. I mean, psilocybin as a whole is metabolized pretty quickly. Most of it's out of your system by the time your trip is done. But the actual trip itself, some people will come out of it, you know, two three hours.
It's relatively short.
And we've had some people that are slow metabolizers and they've had ten eleven hour journeys. So it's one of those things when I'm working with people, we set aside the whole day just in case.
Awesome, anybody have any questions, I do, and it's for everyone. If you guys do your own spiritual practices, have you found that you have been able to hit that those points through your own practices without the assistance of these.
Uh with these drugs.
Yes, if so, if you can share, you.
Can, Yeah, you can there's certain breathing techniques through the nostrils that you can do to enter certain states of SOMEBODI. There's there's different ways to enter into these different mind states, and you know, a lot of I think, uh, when you look at the drug angle of it, it's the quick way.
To open the door.
And a lot of times, once you open the door, you know, like al of the Suxley says, you know, those are the doors of perception. And once those doors are open, then they remain open. So it's a matter of training your brain through some of these extemporaneous you know, processes to be able to recreate those without.
The use of substances.
So it can be yes, it can be done, for sure.
The most the most powerful technique that I know for being able to access these other states of consciousness is what's called lucid dreaming or or or the practice of becoming conscious and aware in your dreams so that you wake up in the dream and you realize that you're dreaming while it's actually happening, and then you can actually act within the dream. And one of the amazing things is that when you're inside of a dream, you can
do a drug you can do what you can. You can do cannabis or in the dream and they have the real effects in the dream. So that's that's certainly a way of actually experiencing this without actually doing any physical drugs. But it really works. I've done it many, many times, and it's a it's a very very powerful technique and it's something anybody can learn. There's you know,
to go online and look at the basic techniques. I don't have time to go into them right now, but in another future podcast if you're if you're interested, I'll be happy to explain the different techniques for dreaming. But they're a very very powerful way of accessing these different states of consciousness without drugs.
And do you think when you enter into those lucid dream states that your body is taking advantage of the androgynists substances your own system produces, because I know.
That's a great question. I mean, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm sorry going Oh.
I've just noticed when I have become lucid in my dreams that everything becomes brighter and I get a feeling that starts in the head and moves down that's almost electric. So I think that there, you know, I think that in combination with the mental processes, I think there's also some sort of a physical switch that your body may be participating with as well.
Yeah, I mean it's very likely. I mean there hasn't been any research done in this at all, but yeah, I think that's a fascinating question and it would be wonderful and if you tune to really explore that greater depth.
Right, absolutely, Yeah, And in the book we talk about that as well. Psychedelics can work as it's a fairly easily, reliably reproducible catalyst for these these altered states of consciousness, But there have been practices across culturally around the world for a very very long time that allow somebody to develop or reach these non orinary states of consciousness.
So meditation, for sure.
They've found that the neural correl it's what's going on in the brain in meditative states, has a lot of similarity with some of the drug in these states, so that the psychedelics happen to be a realm that Rachel and I work within. But my own journey working with these and my exploration, while psychedelics were an early influence you, it's rarely, really really rarely personally work with psychedelics anymore because I've found the other ways to be able to
access this. So working with meditation, the alternating nostril breathing or pranayama breathing practices, holotropic breathwork developed by Stanislav Growth is an incredibly potent way to just alter your breathing and reach these states with.
Something that you don't have to ingest, you don't have to take anything in. It's completely free.
It's an awareness and a development of your own body to be able to reach these states.
And again, ritual and ceremonial practices and.
Those sorts of things are all also geared toward immersing yourself or developing states of gnosis to be able to tap into these. And again the neurological neurobiological correlates of what's going on in those states, the same sort of things are happening. So the deep meditative states holotropic breathwork has been shown to do many of the same things that like your classical Sarah schnurdic LSD psilocybin is doing,
or there's technological ways to do it now. So there's things like the God Machine that stimulates different areas of your brain and can bring on these mystical non dual states.
Not one of those.
Well, I saw an interview with the Buddhist monk and they actually, you know, use the God machine, the helmet, and he said, he said, that brings you instantly to what I've been working like fifteen sixteen years to be able to do with my own brain.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is very.
Interesting when you start getting into these mechanical electrical phenomena incorporated with the you know, and that's where you get into Timothy Larry there towards the end, I saw one of his lectures where he was talking about the digital mindscape in regard to the merger of the digital and the human phenomena per se to take you even to higher potential levels, you know, the virtual reality work.
Yeah, yeah, there there's also there's there's research at the Max Planks Institute in Germany uh lucid dreaming research where they used that trans cranial brain stimulation this little band are on people's heads and when people are dreaming, the transcrannial brain stimulation activates the prefrontal cortex and that basically triggers lucid dream activity in people who are just dreaming.
So that that's a technology that is being miniaturized and mass produced, and it won't be long before we have little just little headbands you can wear when you go to sleep that allow you to locid dream at the come on command.
Right right, Yeah, TEG, were you going to say something about like neurogender acupuncture.
I certainly can if you I made sure.
Those are other tools that I utilize in a couple of different realms within my clinical practice, I've done some exploration of acupuncture as a means of non invasive brain stimulation, So acupuncture over the scalp or use of photobiomodulation cold lasers stimulate different areas of the brain, so you can geared that in a very similar way, though it's more subtle to stimulating those areas of the brain that can induce those states, so inducing altered states of consciousness through that.
People who may have familiarity with acupuncture knows that you can get kind of acu drunk as it were, or you get into this very relaxed, endorphin rich state where you can feel in an altered state, and the neurogen brain balancing is a form of non invasive brain stimulation or neurobiomodulation that takes a real time EEG reading through
different nodes that are put over the scalp. It reads what your brain is doing and creates an adaptive frequency in real time that sends a signal back to bring your brain back into coherence.
And again you can create protocols based.
On understandings of neuroscience and different brain networks in order to modulate those or create change your alterations and those brain networks too. And that's a really interesting one because it's real time adaptive. So it's taking a reading of exactly what your brain is doing and then sending a frequency back, a signal back, and your brain's response to that frequency in that signal is then read by the EG and it's just this feedback loop that's bringing your
brain into a particular state of coherence. Just other tools that can be brought into this exploration of consciousness.
Well, and also learning to control those loops, Yeah, as far as leveling them up or leveling them down through the conscious effort of noticing.
Absolutely. Yeah, So that's what you know. Conventional neurofeedback is typically doing. You've got an EEG reading and you've got a screen or an audio tone that you're you're working with and with the neurogen even though it's completely passive, so you don't have to do that. You know, the system is doing everything for you. You are able to see on the screen what your brain is doing, how
it's responding, and you can play with that. You can toy with that, and you can enhance your ability to you know, change your own brain.
Right right, And I mean this just watchs you right down the road of frequency and reiki and all the different waveform vibrations that affect the body on subtle you know, subtle forms.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, anybody else got anything that's good?
Okay? Uh? Yes, what.
I guess, like if you wanted to probably wrap it up a little bit soon, but I wanted to ask each one of these if you could, like, I guess, like, what would you like to say about this program that you think like it can What would you like to leave people with this, you know what, with the idea of this and what it can.
Do for people?
Sure I can start in that, you know, this is something The model itself is something that I've utilized, you know, throughout my professional career in different ways and understanding of where people are coming from a big component of that is sort of neurological imprints that happen early in life.
So if we have a significant life event early in life, you know, early life trauma or something like that, that can be very tied into a particular developmental phase, and we can say that they have a very strong imprint in circuit one and that relationship with their body and or attachment and so being able to work.
With somebody with where they're at.
But also with the psychedelic realm, with the non ordinary states of consciousness, being able to have a framework, to be able to have an understanding because a lot of people will have spontaneous experiences that they don't have any sort of framework to talk about that, and that's one
of the big places that this comes into play. This model that can be really helpful is being able to have the language and the understanding that these experiences that don't often get talked about, often get shoved to the side or dismissed that it's something that's many many people have had access to some people have greater access than others, And a lot of our goal with this is to both inform people who may have these experiences and then
professionals that are working with people that may have had these experiences but also don't have the framework with that.
So, like my.
Psilocybin facilitation training, there was a recognition that people are having these experiences, the entity encounters, transgenerational experiences, unitive experiences.
But then you recognize that it happens, but what do you do with it?
How do you navigate that, how do you discuss it, and how do you help people work.
Through that experience?
And that's really been much of the goal of this work and what we're steering toward and developing training programs and everything like that, is so that people are more informed about these types of intelligence that everybody has access to, but not everybody has accessed them, and what to do with that.
So bring it back to Tim Leary, the thing for yourself, question authority, And I just feel like we're in such a strange time in history, especially social media and scy ops and propaganda and just you know, just this constant bombardment of different messages and different agendas, and so to really be able to question, as David we call it your b asked your belief systems, and you know, as a therapist, something that comes up like almost with every
client is this lack of a sense of self, you know, constant need for external validation, constantly comparing yourself to other people, feeling they need to conform. So it's being able to have a tool that really encourages you to strip away all the bs and really find your true self and to live an authentic life and bring your gifts into the world and fully. So I think like, this is such an amazing tool, you know, using psychedelics potentially as a means to catalyze that, but in and of itself
for just deeper self exploration. And if imagine, like if everybody in the world was to really go into this kind of a process, how much of a better world this potentially could be. And my real vision for idealistic vision for the use of it.
Did see.
I'm not really sure what I could add, but just that if people are more interested and people are interested
in learning more about the the eighth Circuit model. Besides Rachel and Doug's wonderful book, the Timothy Leary's Excess Psychology, Robert Anton Wilson's Prometheus Rising in Ontario, Wally's Angel Tech or probably three of the three of the best books that you can that you can get a foundation for understanding this on and yeah, and I think that this can be really helpful as we're you know, as as an artificial intelligence is increasing and we're moving into what
you know, Ray Kurtzweild called the singularity, where where you know, computer intelligence is rapidly becoming a more intelligent than than human beings. And and I think that having a psychedelic perspective is is very important at this time in history, primarily because it raises ecological awareness. And I don't think there's there's anything more important right now than the raising
ecological awareness during our climate crisis. I just wanted to mention one other thing here, As my friend Sarah like to say, I'm going to be real with you this morning, early this morning, I did some magic mushrooms and totally forgot about this podcast. It wasn't It wasn't until Rachel reminded me half an hour afore I did, and I was like, oh my god, I forgot we got to do a podcast today. So I don't know that I was the most articulate today, and I apologize.
And I wasn't.
But but I but you guys have the honor. But this is the only podcast I've ever done tripping on magic mushrooms.
So so there you go. I had no clue.
You were very articulate. Yes, very articulate.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you.
That's wow.
That's wasn't uh. You know one thing I did want to ask too. I think I kind of got out of it. You know, this is something I think it even folds into the occult and magic depending on how you're practicing it. Do you think with this you kind of actually kind of reprogram yourself? Do you think that's possible?
Well, and it's not.
It's deprogramming as far as, uh, letting go of the artificiality. Like you're like doctor Rachel, like you were talking about coming to know your true self and letting the things within your true loves and interest shine, you know, for the world to see. And and I think that is
uh that, you know, the great stepping away. You know, it's like Tavis McKinnon talks about, you know, culture is it's like a Petri dish and it's like growing and it's doing its own you know, and you want to step away from the culture and be the true essence of the self, and that that, you know, requires going through these phases of understanding and these levels of knowing yourself, and it's it's lifelong process. You know, it's a beautiful thing.
Yeah, absolutely, And sort of in the subtitle of the Big metaprogramming the multi dimensional Self, you know, the idea is, uh, different steps of sort of deconditioning or increasing your awareness so that you have the ability to look at those those portions of self that that have you know, dictated how you perceive reality or navigate the world and being able to sort of deconstruct those and recreate or if you want to look at his reprogram uh, the way
that you're able to look at things and navigate things.
Right.
I can add something about imprint vulnerability to that, you know, the famous ethologist Conrad Lorenz did a study many years ago where he showed that when when when baby ducklings first hatch, that the very first thing they see they imprint as their mother. Usually it's you, the acual mother duck.
But they he noticed that if they saw him instead of the mother duck, they would follow him around, and they would follow whoever around that they you know, first saw when they when they first hatched, and and with what Timothy Leary and Robert Anton Wilson did was apply this to human development, that that as each circus sort of const into being developmentally, there's a period of what we call imprint vulnerability, where the circumstances that you're in
at that time, the environment that you're in, you know, in a positive or negative way, affect your you know, your orientation with that particular circuit and and then that kind of sticks for life unless you make new imprints, and for most people they they never make new imprints. But what psychedelics do is they allow people to suspend their previous imprints and then make make new ones and hopefully hopefully better ones.
Better.
Yes, that's by the Catherine MacLean, the neuroscientists. She did and studies on psilocybin and found that because it used to be believed that around each thirty ish the personality was crystallized and so you were kind of like this
is who you are for forever more. And so with psilocybin it sort of loosened those the rigidity of those crystallized structures and that you were able to then kind of reimprint and you know kind of this you know, other versions of yourself as you whatever insight, you might have had experience of awe, beauty God, you know, and so helped to really loosen those boundaries.
And that brings it back to kind of the theme of the podcast as a whole. That's where the ritual of the ceremonial work, the occult practices have also come into play. Different approaches to being able to do that.
What would be like, what are some of the ones that you know when it comes to a cult practices.
That you you know, like I was thinking of sigils possibly as being used imprint.
Yeah.
Absolutely, We really briefly talk about sigil work in relationship to circuits six and metal awareness and an ability to externally projected intention and then root that or see that in the subconscious so that you're subconsciously manifesting that. And that's absolutely that feedback loop of increasing that awareness but working on such a subtle level that it's not right there in your conscious awareness. So sigil work certainly comes into play.
A yeah, I assume, I don't know, just yeah makes sense to me. Anybody have any questions before we wrap it up, I'm kind of out for now. Unfortunately, I have no problem, but I have no more questions.
That's a pretty good good coverage of the topic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll tell you one thing I would like to I mean, even if I get you all on separately on something else, I think I would love to get you all back on the show at some point. You know, I think it absolutely really interesting stuff to talk about and experience.
Is you know, research definitely got my got me interested.
Yeah, it'd be great to come back on the show and me and right Rachel has completed a an oracle deck for inner traditions. That's that's based on the eighth Circuit model and based on the d N t entities. So yeah, when when that comes out, we'd love to love to do a show with you about that.
Nice. Nice.
They actually normally send me people, so I'll let them know they'll take you guys.
On nice cool. Yeah, hell yeah, that.
Would be awesome definitely, And I definitely keep you off with the Lucid dreaming in the future, so cool. Yeah, we'll all definitely be keeping in touch if that's okay. Please everybody, uh Doug, please let everybody know where they can find you stuff, what you would like to promote whatever.
Yeah, yeah, most of our mature around the eight circuit model could be found at eight circuit ascension dot com.
So all of our books, we've got some related books.
To tie in some of the the I guess we'll considered mythopoetic or or archetypal systems that are out there, so throw the ruins system the each sing. So we've got some additional materials beyond our Facebook. Like I mentioned, the workbook's going to be coming out pretty soon here, not exactly, we don't have an exact publication date yet, but very very quickly we just sent off the last edits there, so that's where you go for most of
our material is at eight circuit ascension dot com. We're developing out training programs and continuing education courses and also for the psychologically inclined solo practitioners being able to work through that material and have access to working through that as well with a little bit of guidance.
Awesome, Thank you so much in Rachel, Thank you very much, Thank you.
Yes, is there anything or anything that you would like to promote or tell people about your own stuff or anything?
Yeah, I mean I think John summed it up and David already summed it up. Those are like the primary things that you know have been the focus of my life have been like this, this workbook and the courses and the Oracle Deck with David, so super exciting things coming.
Down a pike.
That's awesome. Thank you and David, do you want to promote any of your other books or anything?
Yeah, well, first of all, this is my latest book, The Illustrated Field Guide to the d MT Entities, which was illustrated by by our friend Sarah Fan Huntley and around twenty five other artists including Alex Gray and Luke Brown and others. And that's sort of based on a like a field guide idea of the entities like we
did discussed. To find out more about my work, my website is David J. Brown Jay Brown dot com and that there's a collection of many of my interviews I've done many I've done over a couple hundred interviews with
different leading edge thinkers. Ever you want, from Timothy Lear and Robert Onsen Wilson to Rupert Sheldrake and Albert Hoffman and Jerry Garcia and Noam Chomsky and just many, many dozens of brilliant minds and ask them questions if they normally don't get asked about God and consciousness and life after death and things like that. You can find many of those I'm on. You can find me on Facebook easily.
You can find me on Instagram. And if you go on Amazon and put my name in you'll see my sales page with the twenty books that I've written about the evolution of consciousness. And anybody has questions who wants to contact me can easily do through Facebook or Instagram.
Awesome, awesome, Wow, that's great. All those interviews, this is the only one he'd de driven.
Yes, the only one that's awesome than you and when I wasn't planning on it either but.
Got you no. Thank you all very very much.
Again, this is a really interesting episode, a lot of a lot of interesting stuff.
Judith, real quick, let everybody know where they can find you as well.
Oh sure.
First to the three guests, thank you very much. I thank you very much for the work you're doing. It's actually, it's actually going it's gonna be How can I say this, It's going to rock the world once everybody starts accepting this, I honestly do believe it's going to make a difference, a huge difference, a most needed difference.
So thank you for your work, and thank you.
For coming on. Nick.
Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.
And you can find me on YouTube at on as the Loon, and you can find me on X where I post all the time and I share all the Cult Rejects shows I go on live on.
X and I am the Loon at the Loon fifty And thank you again, No.
Thank you, Robbie Marx Pleisa.
Yes, thank you for having me on. It was great talking to you, doctor Doug, doctor Rachel David, some great stories. I'm very interested in picking up the DMT book. But I would like to say that I am Robbie Marx, artist illustrator. And go check out my link tree which is link tree r M A r X and that'll pull up my podcast, the Metamind Cast, as well as all my social media et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And uh, yeah, this was a great talk, good hanging out.
Thank you for Robbie. I really appreciate you making it sure. Yeah, that was a great show. And like I said again, hopefully I get you all back on at some other point.
There's some really interesting stuff.
And that's the end of another recall rejects, and until the next one, everybody be well.
Later