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Welcome to the occult Rejects. This episode, we got a very very special guest somebody there that I've been waiting to get on this show for a long time. We got the Queen of Chaos magic herself. We got Ivy And before we get to her, we are going to introduce the other rejects that we got on the show today. We're going to start it off with Euros. What is going on? Eros? How well? You?
Hey? Nick? Thanks for having me on. Yep. I'm arrows Up. You can find me on YouTube at arrows Up and you can find me on Twitter at Aeros to Ethos. I am a hellenistic architetypal and functional astrologer and I do a lot of deep dives into metaphysics.
Yes, and if you're into Plotinas in the ny Ads, go check out her stuff and check out the other shows she has that on here, real great workers. Thank you, thanks Nick, of course. And we got my man, Jena Ninja. What is going on?
Freda? What is going on?
Boss?
Mister ninety three? Okay, So I'm Jena Ninja. I've retired the Ninja for a little bit, but you can see mgin so. You can follow me on Twitter at Wukong Reborn, wuk O and g Reborn. You can check out my show at Threshold Saints on ig and as well as ex Twitter, and you can check out The Gray Lodge at the True Gray Lodge dot com the t r ve Gray Lodge dot com as well as our YouTube
like and subscribe you can check us out. We're all caught up, so all of our X recordings are now uploaded on YouTube so you can hear are like hundreds of hours of speculative specula of narcissism and uh sort of you know, speculative aonic work basically.
So thank you guys so much. I'm really excited.
I'm Nick knows that I'm started out as a little bit of a chaos magician myself, so this is exactly like the person that I want to speak to.
So thank you so much, Ivy, and thank you to the crew.
Thank you for making it Jen of course, and we got my man Ethan Indigo. What is going on, sir?
How are you peace?
Thanks so much for putting this together, Nick and everyone glad to be with you. As always, Ethan Indigo Smith easy to find on all the social media and I got a few books out there even on Amazon, again easy to find, and frequently writing writing articles and so forth. And really appreciate you being here, Ivey.
Thank you for making it Ethan. I know you had stuff going on and you made it happen anyway, appreciate it so and last, but not least, before we get to Ivy, we got the Headless Giant himself. What is going on, sir? How are you?
How you doing?
You can find me on x and on YouTube at the Headless Giant, and I have a show with Ethan that we just got done wrapping up here a little while ago, called the Trialogues, and also with a Ricardo and on Mondays. We've got an Alchemy Monday coming up where we're going to break out the socksle it and actually go through how it works and make a little
video about that. And I've also got a show where you can send me your occult slash paranormal experiences at the Headless Giant podcast at gmail dot com and me and Nick read those out on Thursday nights. So if you send us your address, we will send you some stickers, so send those stories into us Headless Giant podcast at gmail dot com.
Thank you, Yeah, definitely. If you have any stories, please don't forget to put in your information. I will send out stickers and just a reminder too. On top of Hellas's busy podcasting schedule by the middle of November, hopefully. I think I think we decided on a Tuesday or whatever day it is, we should and this will probably keep me busy for the next three to five years podcasting. We should be yeah, we should. We're going to be going through Alistair Crowley's seven seven seven, so keep an
eye out for that. That should be fun and interesting. Now finally, before finally to the U to the guest after don't know five minutes, four minutes already, Ivy, before I introduce you, I do want to I guess you know, yeah, fanboy you a little bit. You know, this is somebody I look up to in the ecult community, and I do think she has a lot of a lot of
good stuff out there for people. And one thing I do want to highly stress is uh, I might screw up the name because it's been a minute, but I think it was that to eight lessons for a beginning ceremonial magician. I highly if people are really interested into that stuff, are getting into it, or want to know what's entailed in it. I have listened to other people's stuff, you know, even David Shoemaker, another person who I think
has great, uh you know, advice for a beginner. That video she put out, I think is fucking amazing because she does even tie in science into this stuff, and that is one of the reasons why I even wanted her on the show, because she does look at the
occult in different ways. In some ways the way I do, you know, a little bit of academic, a little bit of science, and just for me, the way she words it and the way she does that episode, I highly suggest to check that out if you're interested in this stuff. I don't think anybody could have said it any better. So finally, after I'm done blah blah blah and about Ivy, Ivy, please let everybody know who you are, what your deal is, and where people can find your stuff.
Sure, well, thank you all for having me on the podcast.
I'm really excited because I've been listening to quite a few of your episodes and I think you just got you have such a unique structure with all the different things that you're doing, and Nick, thank you so much for that introduction.
I hope I live up to that hype.
But no, I just well, I like to tell people I'm just a girl on the internet, so queen of chaos. No, there are so many other amazing chaotes out there that are doing some fantastic stuff. I'm just really passionate about chaos magic and I talk about it a lot, so I think people are like, oh, that's the chaos girl, Let's talk to her about chaos magic.
So anyways, I'm Ivy.
You might know me as iv the Occultist on YouTube and on Instagram, and I recently just wrote a book. Actually, I've been published twice now. The first book was actually with Peter Carroll, which is considered, you know, one of the founders of chaos magic. So I wrote an essay with him and a couple other chaos magicians in a chaos magic anthology, kind of showcasing where chaos magic is today. So that just came out this last July, which was super exciting to be able to work with Peter Carroll.
Oh man, I fangirled so hard. It was really really cool. I loved it. And then my first solo book is coming out this next February. It's called Chaos Magic, a Complete Beginner's Guide, and it really is, I mean, a
guide for the absolute complete beginner. I have found that a lot of the Chaos Magic books that are written already kind of assume that you have at least some sort of occult knowledge, and they were I mean, if we think of like liber Nol and Psychonaut and even Condensed Chaos, those ones were written by people that would assume that maybe you're coming out of a ceremonial magic scene, or you at least have some understanding of magic and the occult.
But there isn't really.
Anything that fits the gap for an absolute beginner coming into the occult for the very first time and needing to know their ABC's.
So that's kind of what my book is about.
It's structured with theory and praxis, so you get a little bit of both. But yeah, I just make random videos on the Internet and some people like it, some people hate it, and it is what it is because there's trolls and that's fine, but that's me, I guess. Oh, and I'm a science person, so for my day job.
I'm a little bit of a labrat.
So yeah, as Nick said, I do try to incorporate academia and some scientific perspectives by way of psychology in my ritual magic.
So I think that covers everything. I don't know, We're going to go through it all, So that's my little feel.
I think that was great. I think you summed it up great.
So far cool.
Did anybody have anything to ask or say before I start to continue going on, I have a quick question.
So Ivy, one of my co hosts from the Gray Lodge Solar Ex I'll shout him out, who has been on the show and I were discussing about how a lot of chaos magic is very popular among a lot of left or contemporary Left hand Path practitioners because it is kind of a breaking away of the ceremonial confines you can say, which, of course, they kind of love.
So do you have any thoughts on this or like sort of more chaot perspectives on why so many so many people in like the American modern occult scene have a sort of I'm not saying ceremonial magic is bad in any way. I'm just saying that they've a lot of them have left and sort of embraced some of these more chaos magic principles. Don Web of course number one maybe, but I don't think he's the only one.
I think that, you know, like Toby Chappel's talking about this, I mean a lot of them are who's also been on the shows.
Yeah, I mean I'm not a left hand practitioner myself, but I do have friends that are both chaos magicians and left hand practitioner. And I think if we think about the definitions of like the right hand path versus the left hand path, I know this is a whole philosophical discussion that we could have forever, but there usually is, like the right hand path, there is this level of institutionalized dogma, and with the left hand path there usually
is not. At least you know, the friends that I speak to, there seems to be this rejection of dogma, and that really kind of coincides with one of the core axioms of chaos magic theory, which is the avoidance of dogmatism and really kind of paving your own way.
Right.
It's all about individuality, creativity, freedom, doing what works and discarding what doesn't. And then there's a certain rebellious nature to chaos magic, so I could see how left hand path practitioners who really are aligned with that rebellious spirit would kind of fall in line with chaos magic principles, Whereas you know, a right hand path practitioner is going to be more focused on the institution, the community.
The righteous path.
Maybe asceticism is incorporated into the things that they're doing, and that's very opposite to what chaos magic preaches, because it's pragmatic. You discard what works, and you are you discard what doesn't work.
And then you keep what does.
So yeah, I mean, I know a lot of chaos magicians that are not interested at all on the left hand path though too, so I think it's just like a mixed bag.
But I guess that's what I would say. I don't know what do you think about that.
I mean, for me, everything that you said, pragmatism number one, being able to flexibility in your frameworks, this is all very tonentric ideas. Like I consider myself a middle path practitioner myself, so I'm neither on extreme of like asceticism or left hand path, but I definitely will draw from both and draw from like both institutional and sort of
like independent ideas from both of those things. But I'm pretty traditional myself, but everything you're saying is in accordance with contrac So for me, I agree one hundred percent.
I guess it's just like it's I think people are.
I think people have sort of lost the okay, so I'll just I'll be really honest. I think a lot of the institutional frames have sort of lost the magic or at least in people's imaginary, and so they don't necessarily contain like the ritual formulations. Like Nick talks about this with the oto, like, yeah, you can walk through the Gnostic Mass, and yeah, maybe you get like a little spark here and there and you know, illuminate something, But as soon as soon as the mass is done,
it's done. It's like, you know, you might get a little spark, but you're not, like if you want to use cabostical lang, you're not going to death or anything. So I think that people sort of recognize that there's a kind of emptiness in the ritual. And I'm not using emptiness in the Buddhist way, but maybe emptiness in the more functional way where it's like you're not really gaining that much. So I think people are more interested
in these processes. I would call them a consciousness and sort of how to make magic work in these pragmatic confines of our minds as well as our everyday material lives.
I would agree with that.
I think there's a level of being an adversary too, going back to the rebellious spirit, because a left hand path practitioner is going to be working potentially with adversaries, you know, those types of spirits, or maybe they are the adversary.
They see themselves that way.
And with chaos magicians, I think there's a similar energy there because it kind of looks at ceremonial magic and scoffs a little bit and says, we don't need these long arduous ceremonies. That's all bullshit. We can just cut all of this out and get to the meat and potatoes of what actually works. So yeah, no, it definitely makes sense to what you said.
I just want to say that I'm a I'm a I'm a I call myself true neutral, but I am a bit of a trickster. Like I definitely have that element, but I'm not I'm not like evil for evil's sake.
So let me just say that.
To continue, No, I could resonate with you on that trickster spirit here too.
I'm not you know, I'm not like evil, but you know I like to function up? So oh can I swear?
Okay?
You didn't know if I could or not? So okay, good, You're good.
There's like a few questions I want to ask you. I do want to kind of, I guess. I guess at some point get like what brought you even into the occult? But if you can for the listeners, you know, because my podcast is very like you know, there's people who are into the stuff and people who really don't know anything about it, could you give the listeners an idea of what your idea of chaos magic is.
Sure, well, that's a loaded question, first of all. And my definition changes every single day.
So that's good though, I think that my opinion I've said, if you're a magician and your ideas, if things keep staying the same, something the fuck's wrong.
Yes, definitely.
I mean, even after writing a book, I still go back and read what I wrote and then one day I'll disagree with you.
I wish I could change.
So it's so tough, but I did say in the introduction of my book that ten years from now, I could disagree with everything that I've written in this book, and that is chaos magic. Okay, so at least I've covered my bases there and we're all good. But no, chaos magic is a post modern magical practice or kind of a philosophy and a perspective on how magic works. So a lot of people will initially think of chaos magic and see sigils, hyper sigils, magical entities, all of
these things that are so chaos magic. But I would actually argue that those things are not intrinsically chaos magic. Yes, a lot of chaos magicians will do sigils and hyper sigils and work with servitors and such, but anybody from any occult practice can really utilize those techniques. What really identifies a chaos magician is someone who prescribes to chaos magic theory, and chaos magic theory kind of combines a bunch of different things, so one of the core axioms.
And when I say this, I say it very loosely because there's really no rules and no limitations to a chaos magic practice, and it really does reject dogma. So there is kind of a conundrum in itself because as we try to define chaos magic, chaos magic doesn't like to be defined and it doesn't prescribe to dogma. So there is a little bit of an issue in even
defining it in the first place. But one of the core axioms is using your belief as a tool to manifest the things that you want and to manipulate your reality. So whether something is a objectively real or not is completely irrelevant. If you can use it in your occult practice to make change in your life, then that works, and that's what we're going to do as chas magicians. An example that I always like to give is with gods.
For example, I am dedicated to both. I know that some people pronounce it tough thought, you know, there's a million different pronunciations, but yeah, exactly, and there's really no right or wrong way.
But both is what feels best to my mouth when I'm chanting it in rituals. Yeah, yeah, so I just say both.
But so in working with this deity, is this god objectively real? Is it an actual Egyptian god that exists in some upper or lower world or another realm or Is it perhaps an aggregre just a thought form that we have fed all of our beliefs and ideas into being real or is it nothing at all? Is it a psychological archetype who cares? Because at the end of the day, chaos magician really prescribes to it's your belief in that thing that matters, not necessarily whether that god
is real or not. So it doesn't matter if both is real or not. If I'm dedicated to Thoth and I'm doing ritual with both and I'm seeing results manifest in my material reality, that is what matters. So it's very pragmatic. We discard what doesn't work and we keep what does. And then there's other aspects of chaos magic theory as well. There's gnosis. You know, we're working with
gnostic states, deconditioning the mind. Again, the avoidance of dogmatism, because there is this idea that dogmatism is it imposes rigidity on the mind and it prevents you from tapping into your creativity and your individual freedom. So again going back to that rebellious spirit and kind of rejecting institutionalized dogma that we were talking about. But yeah, does that answer the question I mean, I feel like I could go on and on about what chaos magic is, but that's my brief.
I guess.
Yeah, I like that. It's interesting how you like you said something were about like not being a like for me. I use chaos magic at one point, but I was never a chaos magician. I would never have said that. I was a ceremonial magician and who It's interesting. It's funny how like the way you just explained things like I was like a mix of both, how I was very much a ceremonial magician who still liked kind of the rigid rules and incorporated the ideas of how chaos magic,
sigils and all that stuff was made. I just incorporated that into my ceremony instead of me using planetary squares now, I'm just you, you know, designing them myselves from taking the letters out of the phrases, you know, or I might be meditating now on the sigil and stuff like
that during my ritual. But uh, yeah, I find it interesting how like you really did kind of like you really split it up really well, I think with those two because I see how I was a combination of both, you know, and I and I and I find it interesting how Like I think Gordon White even said it on the show how with Chaos Magic, it was like something that like kind of came through and just like went,
but like I kind of stayed with it. Like it was almost like out of me being bored technically with what I was doing ceremonial wise, it was like, let me check out this Chaos Magic stuff. And I was like, oh, this is kind of fun, like you know, less rules. You know, I can get autistic with my schigil. Now, I don't need like a Martin's fucking square for this, you know what I'm saying. So uh, And then it was just like, you know, I kind of had like it's big thing, and like, you know, I guess I
kind of like put it to the side. But I always kind of kept that though, Like the sigil work and stuff. I always incorporated that even all my candles. You know, if I was you know, I would incorporate some sort of chaos. I guess technically, you know, the way that those sigils are done, it's it's not with the you know Jamatria, the Hebrew Jamatri. I would put that on this, So you know, it was something that stayed with me. But uh yeah, I'm going on too
long now. But one thing I do want to ask, and this is this is kind of like jumping ahead, but it was like something that you said made me think of this just now. I can't remember what it was.
But when it comes to chaos, magic and the sigils and stuff, do you think it's ever possible you might be a little bit like we might be doing something a little bit like Giordano Bruno was trying to do with the art of memory, where we might actually be imprinting things onto ourselves or actually sparking stuff inside our brain like that shape believe it or not, might actually do something regardless even though we're like, oh I just
made that, well, it's still actually means something inside your head. Do you think that's possible that you might actually be like it almost might be. This is the worst way to say it, but like almost self m chulture where you're actually trying to reprogram or open up things in your own mind.
I do to a limit. Let me elaborate.
Okay, yeah, go for it, go for it.
I do have strong opinions on this now.
So Austin Osmin's fair is the one that really kind of developed the style of sigilization that you're talking about, or you are creating this artistic form from an intention phrase, right like you take an attention phrase, you reduce it down.
You either use the letter method or you can use a wheel, you can just whatever create an image artistically from that intention phrase, and then you enter an altered state of consciousness and sort of charge and activate that sigil in that altered state, or with a chaos magicians, it's called a gnostic state where you are focusing intently on one intention and then you're implanting that image into
your subconscious mind. That way, after you destroy the sigul it can manifest as you go about your day subconsciously. You don't have to be consciously thinking about the intention anymore. It's all a subconscious process. So yeah, I do think that in that it's specifically with the Austin Osman Spares sigulization methods. I do think that we are implanting things into our psyche, but I don't think that they stick. I've found working a lot.
With sigils that.
They kind of like dissipate really quickly, and so I find that working with servitors or other types of magical entities really create more potent, long lasting brain changes, where as a sigule.
What's that that's makes sense while if you unless you think that, if you're not going to feed the thing, you have to keep going back to it, so it's constantly reminder exactly.
It's really great for quick magic. I like to think of the elements here. You know, we have like fire, earth, air, water, and fire is always associated to really quick magic, but it does taper off very quickly as well. It doesn't have that strong grounding foundation that the earth element does.
So I kind of think of sigils like that, where it's very quick acting and good for smaller intentions, and I do think it can kind of help reprogram the subconscious, but to an extent obviously, and then that magic kind of fades out a little bit. So yes and no, I guess it's been my personal experience, but you know, I don't know. I think there are some freak incidents too where people have worked with sigels and they've been
able to accomplish incredible things. And I think that's just apparent in occult practices of all kinds, where you have that one percent of a miracle potentially happening or some you know, crazy odds. But I would just say overall, sigels are good for quick magic, not good for a whole brain rewiring.
I like you.
I like you, well, I had something I wanted to throw in there. I see chaos magic as kind of a return to the primordial, because what we see is kec you know, right, this frog deity of chaos returning in the in the Donald Trump presidency of all things. We see the eight sided or eight pointed star as the star of Ishtar, goddess of love and war. Pretty chaotic,
you know. And then we have all these references to the agency of chaos, and it's sort of like all of this stuff is bubbling up, and we see this sort of changing of the eons and this sort of milieu of chaotic reality kind of all around us. It's almost like the fertile ground for you know, a reimagining of what ordering chaos really is.
No, that's exactly right. Chaos magic really is a return to the primordial. It's about working with the idea of primordial chaos where there is no set form yet, and so because there is no set form, we can create whatever kind of reality we want based on our belief and our will as magicians. So no, to your point, I completely agree with that.
As well, said anybody else have questions? Er, thank you?
Might be a stupid question, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
Uh.
Platinus has this idea of like the uh, the one kind of overflowing and experiencing itself through like or like experiencing multiplicity through a scheme of differentiation, and that always made me think of chaos kind of like some of those images of chaos where you have like those two circles kind of coming out of each other, and like that idea that from the one, there's like the two and the three, and that they are all from the one,
but they are different and like everything is different. I guess I wonder do you think that chaos magic kind of works in a scheme of different creation or right, because you're also talking about how nosis is kind of involved, like it's like these new states, these new things novelty.
I don't think that's a stupid question at all. I think that's a great question actually, And I'm not a philosophy expert. I am very I am a very practical occultist, So I don't read books unless I absolutely have to. That sounds absolutely terrible because I know that I said that I bring in academia, and then here I am like, I don't give a shit about philosophy and history.
No, just kidding, I'm just kidding when I say that.
But yeah, so I think to answer your question, that's really difficult because every chaos magician is going to practice chaos magic differently, and they're going to have a different view on how chaos magic works. And because it innately rejects any sort of dogma, I would say that maybe some chaos magicians might practice from that perspective, but perhaps not all.
Because.
To define that is to add struck sure to the chaos magic philosophy, which innately rejects structure. So I hope that that answers your question, but I'm sure some chaots would definitely perceive it that way though.
Thank you. Anybody have a question before I ask the next one, I don't want to keep your guys nick all right, yeah, before before, you mentioned servitor and that is something that I have experienced in using in the past. Just for the listeners who don't know what that is, and I hate to put you on the spot, Ivy, But could you maybe explain what is a servitor to you?
Yeah?
Sure, So a servitor is a magical entity or a thought form or some sort of construct that has been created from the magician. And there's many different perceptions as to what a servitor is. Some people think that it's almost like you're putting a job posting up on a cosmic bulletin board and then a servitor type entity is coming in to fill that.
I don't agree to helpe it. I mean, you know, if people want to believe that, that's fine, that's not how I've never heard that. Oh really yeah no, for me, it's very much a mental thought form.
So you are taking the you're taking this intention phrase and with a sigil, you know, you would normally take the intention phrase, reduce it down, create an image, and then implant that onto your subconscious mind. But with a servitor, you're actually creating this entity, this being, and breathing life into that entity. And there is a maintenance to it. There is, I mean, you're feeding that servitor, You're interacting
with it on a regular basis. So it's almost like to me, I would describe it the next level up from a sigil because you do use sigils in the process, but you're actually creating an entity from it that you are then interacting with so that it can take on larger tasks. Because as I mentioned beforehand, sigils are really, you know, great for quick magic, but not really they
don't sustain for very long. So servitors are excellent for really really big working something that you want to work on over a longer period of time.
And that's just my perception.
I know that everybody look magical entities differently, but that is kind of how I actually, you know what, I do want to add a distinction because if we get into magical entities, I do have a chapter on magical entities, and I talk about servitors versus Tulpa's versus Eggregre's, and I do want to make a distinction that a servitor is kind of like a I hate to say it this way, but a mindless servant, a mindless robot that
does not experience emotions. It does not have autonomy. Although I will say with my own servitors, the line gets a little bit blurred because with Tulpa's they do experience emotion, they do have autonomy, and they can actually create a full possession of the body, and so I have had lines blurred where a servitor starts to turn.
Into a tulpa.
But for the most part, just to kind of get our definitions straight, I would say that a servitor is more mindless, no autonomy, no emotion, and it just kind of helps execute tasks for you.
How do you tell the difference?
This is the argument, No, just kidding, This is an argument amongst chaos magicians who work with magical entities. So Tulpa's in my experience and what I've seen from others, really are more akin to like an imaginary friend. It is this entity and actually the whole Tulpa mancy community. I don't want to fully wrap this under the Chao's magic umbrella because it is almost separate yet parallel to
the occult world. A lot of people that are really really into psychology will actually get into Tulpa mancy and not even have it be part of any sort of occult workings whatsoever. But some occultists will kind of incorporate that in so whereas servitors, you know, that word is usually only seen in reference to some sort of occult practice.
But yeah, Tulpa's are more like an imaginary friend. And in my experience, they're so difficult to create, and it takes months and months, if not years, to create this entity inside your mind that can kind of share the brain space with you, and there's a lot of there's a lot that goes into it. There's like parallel processing that happens with tulpa's. I'm not an expert, so I actually don't talk about Tulpa's too much in my book. I kind of just refer people to other Tulpa answers
that I think are great to learn from. So don't ask me too many questions about Tulpa's, of course, because I'm not too much of an expert. But yeah, servators is more my jam and where my expertise lies. And they're much simpler creations, much easier to manage. They don't normally speak in your head like a Tulpa does, so yeah.
I know for myself when I use the servitor, Like, I'm not not asking you to tell me what it was, but like when you made when you were I guess whatever dealt with yours? Did you actually like you have like a description in your head or on paper, like you actually constructed what it looked like and gave it a name. Yeah. I did all that, and then I would you know, I think a few times a week I would like feed it and actually like retell it,
like this is what you're supposed to do, you know. Yeah, so it is definitely I think as a ceremonial magician too. It to just be honest, it game a reason to do rituals, you know. I was like, oh, this is a reason to do the less of vanishing ritual and to invoke something. And I don't know, you know so, but uh, yeah, it's very It's interesting. You know, it's funny to hear you say like you know certain things. It just reminds me like, yeah, I remember when I
was doing that, would actually feed the thing. And yeah, now when you mentioned it's funny, I don't have much experience with Tulpa's and I think it's probably because I was dealing with messing with chaos magic. There's more of like kind of like sigils. Then it was servitors. Then if you really want to take it up, you go
to edgrigors. You know what I'm saying. And I heard you mentioned, you know, you don't much know much about Tulpa's but servitors and agregors, And that makes sense because I feel like that is kind of just like, you know, stepping it up in chaos magic. What would you hate, you know again, to put you on the spot for egrigors? How would you explain those for the people?
Sure?
No, put me on the spots? Why I'm here? I love this conversation.
So yeah, And Egregor is kind of like a servitor on steroids. So where a servitor is created by the mind of one magician for a very specific intention, and Agregor is created by the hive mind, it's by a group of people. And this can either be consciously or unconsciously. So this gets into a really interesting discussion about people unconsciously creating agrigors and even discussing let's say the Christian
God for example, going back to objectivity versus subjectivity. Is the Christian God actually real some gods sitting up in the clouds in heaven above or is it just an agrigor? Is it this entity that has been created over thousands of years of people feeding their ideas, their thoughts, their belief, their love into this thing potentially being real?
So anegrigor really is just.
Like a servitor, but created by potentially thousands of people, and even covens. I mean, I ran covens for four years, and I won't share what we did, of course, to specifically, because I'm not allowed to share those types of things. But we would even create agrigors. And so you would during ritual push your energy. I'm trying to how do I say this without giving too much away, push your energy and intention towards a specific goal, and everybody in the group would be focusing on the same thing.
And you would give.
This this thing life shape, you would give it a logo or a sigil, you would give it characteristics and such, and so you are just a mass group of people creating this thing. But I really like the idea of eggregors because it really does beg the question with gods, whether they're real or not, or whether they're just eggregors.
And I also think that companies and institutions, and I think a lot of people in corporate America unconsciously work with eggregors through their branding and having their fans and even through media, you know, influencing people and manipulating people like that to feed their energy and attention into their mascots.
You know, if we think of like Kellogg's or something, and we think of like the mascot of all these brands and such, every time that that mascot flashes up on the screen, are we not kind of giving it our attention and feeding it a little bit?
Does that not kind of become an aggregor?
This thought for that all of us are either we love it or we hate it, but we're all feeding energy into So I love the concept of Egregre's.
I think it's super interesting.
And yeah, to either consciously or unconsciously create them, I think is really interesting.
Thank you, It was a good way to put it. One question I do have. I'm wondering, do you think it's possible? Guess this gets a little bit more conspiratorial, but do you think it's possible that like the public can be made to create an Edgarg or not even realize they're doing it?
Oh? One hundred percent?
I mean, okay, this is coming from me being a conspiracy theorist and not trusting anyone or anything ever.
Yeah, Oh my.
Gosh, yeah, I mean I so, I was in school for psychology before I switched my degree in molecular biosciences. I was getting my degree in psychology and I got to year three and then ended up dropping out because I decided I didn't want to be a psychologist because of all of the politics and the bullshit.
I didn't want to do it anyways.
So I had to take a lot of like sociology classes and psychology of you know, communities and such. And it's really interesting all the manipulation tactics that become so apparent and so clear once you know how to spot them, you know, like once you see a cover up or something. It's just it's wild watching politicians, watching even medical companies.
I mean all of them. All of them are so corrupt, and I'm just sitting here like, wow, there is They don't even realize that they're doing a cult hidden shit right now, but they absolutely are.
So yeah, definitely cool.
Did anybody have any have any questions?
I got one.
So me and Nick follow a lot of strange animals on Instagram and what they're they're start starting to do is they have these footpads that they go around and they touch the button and they you know, speak to their owners with these sounds that come out of the buttons and this one cat I've been following loves the
movie Pocahontas, like that's our favorite movie. So this meme has spread from the human world to the cat world, and the cat now believes that Pocahontas is real and so it's always pushing the button I want to see Pocahontas.
So for Halloween, Pocahontas, a person dressed up like Poconas actually came and visited this cat, and so this cat was having an interaction with the meme that was made in this cartoon that now it believes the character of Pocahontas is coming to visit it, and so it was it was really excited and it was saying, when Cano Pocahontas come back, you know, it's pushing all the buttons.
That's going crazy.
Uh, meme magic has spread from humans into animals. What are your thoughts on that?
Okay, so I have actually I know exactly what you're talking about, like not that specific cat, but I've definitely seen the videos where a dog will press the buttons, you know, and it has their their like speaking certain words and they're training their.
Dog that way.
I don't know if I have anything other than that's crazy, Like, I don't know, it's just really crazy to me. Yeah, I mean to be able to. We're actually reading in
my book club right now. You guys had on Richard Kachinski recently to talk about his Mind over Magic, and we're reading that in my book club right now, and he's talking about programming and we're just in the first six chapters is what we've covered, but he talks about you know, programming and conditioning and things like that, and yeah,
it's just it's really interesting. I could go on a whole rant about like the reality threshold and our cognitive filters and such, but I definitely think the animals they may have a lesser version of that, but they still have that where we can kind of manipulate them and that's really sad.
But yeah, that's crazy. I guess those are all my thoughts.
I guess I had a question. So you wrote you got to work with Peter Carroll, which is so cool, and I was wondering, you know, there there's the Peter Carroll kind of chaos magician, and then like maybe Discordianism type of chaos magician, and like the Discordianism, they get real weird with it like their apocryphas and stuff are just really strange and obscure. And I was wondering, like, could you talk a little bit on the differences between maybe those schools of thought.
Oh geez, So this is gonna be tough for me to answer because I don't identify with either.
Because the way I practice chaos magic is different.
From both of them. So yeah, I mean, so I kind of take my own approach. And here's here's the problem, not necessarily a problem, just an observation with the chaos magic community because it's not a formal institution, like if you think of like the Hermitic Order of the Golden Down, Okay, it has all these rules and regulations, and every lodge
of the Golden Dawn operates similarly. Like they might be a little bit different in theory, but for the most part, they kind of have the similar a similar framework, whereas chaos Magic it rejects that institutionalized dogma. So we don't have an official logo, we don't have an official set rules,
we don't have official leaders in the community. Even I mean Peter Carroll is seen as one of the founders of Chaos Magic, but he has his own flavor of practicing chaos magic that doesn't resonate with all of us. So I think it's hard to classify chaos magicians because there's so many. I have never met two chaos magicians that are the same at all, and so I think that the Discordianism approach and the Peter Carroll approach are
probably the two most well known. But I would actually say there's so many other flavors of chaos magic than that Discordianism. I have never really been truly called down that path, so I actually have no idea. But Peter Carroll, I've definitely read all of his books. He takes a lot more of a scientific approach to chaos magic. He kind of has his own method in theory based on Oh gosh, I'm going to absolutely busher this if he ever watches this, which I don't think he will, but
he doesn't watch stuff like this. But you know, his approach is very much centered around physics because that's his area of expertise. And he's also he kind of leans or I don't know if this is true current day, but in his previous works he leans more towards the atheistic approach, which I actually disagree with and disagreements are something that's really important in chaos magic community. We should be able to disagree with each other and challenge each
other's beliefs and such. So I actually personally feel like atheism is also a form of dogma. So I know that atheism rejects Christianity and you know, organized religion and stuff, but atheism itself is its own form of dogma, which I think is the antithesis of really what chaos magic is trying to say. Now, again, this chaos magic changes
over the years. So what chaos magic was in the nineteen seventies when Peter Carroll was writing about it is going to be a lot different than what we're talking about in twenty twenty five. So yeah, I would say his approach is a lot more scientific, a lot more atheist. Discordianism can't speak to that too much, But there's also just so many other flavors out there.
I had a quick question, do you believe that disbelief has a dispelling effect on other people's spells? Like a person who disbelieves strongly in a thing can actually create a sort of field around themselves that causes sort of strange happenings to dissipate a little bit that.
Yeah, no, I definitely do to an extent. Of course, it sort of depends on So with the chaos magic perspective, you might be going through what's called belief shifting or paradigm jumping, which is where you are intentionally adopting and discarding beliefs as they suit your magical ritual.
And so if you're working like let's.
Talk about the models of magic for a second, you have the spirit model of magic, the meta model, the energy model, the psychological model, and the chaos magician may adopt one of those models at any point depending on
what they're doing. So if you are fully adopting the spirit model, let's say for a particular ritual, you are getting yourself to believe that spirits objectively exist regardless of your belief in them, then from that perspective, then the answer would be no, because your belief doesn't really matter too much because you're working with the idea of these objective spirits.
But if you're working.
From the psychological model or the energy model and such, I personally do believe that belief is very potent, and your disbelief in something can dispel what you're doing. I also want to add another caveat here that sometimes we think we believe something, but there is a rift between the conscious mind and the subconscious mind, because you might think consciously that you believe in something when subconsciously you really don't, or vice versa.
And so I think we need.
To work with altered states a lot in ritual for this reason, because when we enter altered states of consciousness, we drop down into our subconscious mind a little bit more, into the spirit world a little bit more, and so we're able to bypass those cognitive filters and really get down to what we actually believe.
So if we're working with our belief and.
Trying to manipulate things, we're implanting it directly into the subconscious and you don't have that friction of what you think consciously you believe versus what you subconsciously believe. I think I just went on a whole I don't even know what the original question was. I was just kind of rambling, so.
Sorry, I'll jump in really quick.
If that's a retaining I was going to ask if you had no Yeah, I think what Ivy said was totally correct, Like, that's correct for every kind of magic that's not I don't think that's even limited. Like, yeah, you do drop, we would call it like rigpa, you drop down into like the fifth state of consciousness, like that kind of I would call it diamond thunder, but people can call it whatever they want. It is that sort of more primordial state, as I'd be said, but
it is. It is like I would say, it's Yosodac obviously shout out to our series net.
On Cabal, but you know it is so.
But that can be a problem too, as Ivy saying, because it is the realm of the spirits, it's the ghost worlds, so certain things can arise in that state that aren't necessarily real or not real. I always call it either either or or not. Excuse me, neither nor, I always say. People just asked me, oh, are God's real. I'm like, well, it's real and not real. It's neither nor never either or so. I don't know if you agree with that, Ivy, but that's often how I sort
of frame it myself. So I agree everything you said. It is just that this is like the conventions of like fundamental magic, Like what exactly what you're talking about, like dropping down to that state.
But then you're gonna go up what a lot of people would call the will.
You're going to push past that kind of tifferotic or solar consciousness, and you're gonna, you know, go all the way however, you know, wherever your whatever, your plan is.
So yeah, I wanted to add that, Uh, there's something that you were saying, like kind of like the subconscious and conscious. For me, it just reminded me of when I was doing shadow work at some point, you know, when I guess maybe I just started really taking like you know, I was doing a lot of meditation, just trying,
I guess, like you know, think on certain things. And at one point I was just realizing that like certain morals and values that I thought I had, I could look in different situations of my life and see how I contradict myself and I'm like, yo, that is fucking deep, Like my fucking brain is fucked.
I don't know.
And like, honestly, it was like not too long after that that I start having magical experiences. Sometimes I even wonder if I even fried myself out, Like even my own conscious was like this makes no sense, Like why are we playing this game?
Exactly. There are so many.
I actually have an exercise in my book that works with journaling about your subconscious beliefs and helping you to start rewriting those subconscious beliefs. And there's I mean, deconditioning is such a core part of a chaos magic practice because you really want to shed societal limitation or societal brainwashing,
even brainwashing from your childhood. We're really trying to deconstruct and get back to primordial chaos, right, and primordial chaos has no form, it does not have this the limitations of ego. So deconstruction is really important. So I like that you brought up shadow work because I think that can be very adjacent to some of the deconditioning practices of chaos magicians.
Yeah, I would even like and you know what, it's funny how you even like mentioned, you know, being conditioned.
I think what even like kind of spurred me into getting that getting into all that with the shadow work is like I read the Gida, and in my opinion, when he's talking about like when he's talking about all those people on the battlefield, I'm like, in my opinion, I'm taking it as like all the voices in his head that have constructed his beliefs in the way he is, and like, I had to start going back being like,
you know, nothing, nothing. I still love my father or whoever, or the guy across the street or neighbor, but there were certain values that they put into my head that I lived by that I disagree with completely fucking now, you know. And I had to let that shit.
Go, you know.
So yeah, some deep you know, I did that book, believe it or not, that scenarios what took me down that hole, you know, of starting to look at myself and what the fuck is actually making me think the way I think? Because that's behavior basically.
Well, yeah, I mean, belief is so important, and it's like this, it's like this dance too, because yes, we want to feed our belief into something, but not to the point where it becomes adherence to dogma at the expense of anything else better that could come your way. And so I think that's the fine line too, is that belief in something is okay. Subscribing to something is
totally okay. It's when it becomes this rigid adherence where you are no longer tapped into your creativity, your freedom if something better comes along, that's more efficient.
If you're so stuck.
In your ways and you're not even willing to consider new opportunities or you know, a new way of doing something in you're occult practice, that is the opposite of what chaos magic preaches. So yeah, no, I agree with that. So deconditioning is really important for that reason.
There is a Zen expression of great doubt, great awakening, little doubt, little awakening, no doubt, no awakening, which I think is a great profound kind of idea towards your experience, Nick, And when we spend enough time inside, we all have that experience. And I love this, this topic of the individualized pursuit of magic IVY that you're taking on. This idea of applicability over ritualism is very tai Chi, very Taoist,
and it's all about what works for the individual. And I think that's an example of why there's so many different styles and different aspects of tai Chi is because it's all about the individual what works for them. I should have known that you were into Thoth by looking at your book cover. Yeah, and then Nick, when you mentioned which will be on my radar now that eight essential tips for beginner occultists. I wonder if you look at this eightfold symbol, symbology is meaningful in any term.
And I love the cover of your book, by the way.
Oh thank you. Could I actually talk about the cover for a second, because it was by accident and it was actually kind of a message.
I was going to ask you about it. Actually that was gonna be a yeah question.
Yeah. No. I haven't had a chance to talk about this yet with anybody. But so Moon Books publishing, they're awesome. Usually authors don't get to choose their covers at all. It's all up to the publisher, which is wild because unfortunately some authors get stuck with a really ugly cover and they can't do anything about it.
It's just the publishing.
But Moon Books was really great and they were open to taking my notes as to what I wanted for the cover. So I didn't fully design the cover, but I gave them almost the exact concept that they produced, which I was happy with. But I was looking at the eight point at star because the eight pointed star, the chaos star, has kind of become an unofficial symbol for chaos magic, which there's never going to be an official symbol for chaos magic because again it rejects dogma
that's never going to be a thing. But it is kind of like the unofficial symbol because you know, the IoT took it and are incorporating it into their symbolism and so on and so forth. But anyways, for the cover, I wanted the a point at star, you know, to signify chaos magic. And so I was looking on shutter stock, which is the only option that I had to really be able to find similar images to send to the publisher to give them an idea of what I was
looking for. And I found this one that was really beautiful that I was like, Wow, this is the most gorgeous eight pointed star I think I've ever seen. It looks like it's got cool sigils on it, I mean, and I try to dig into it a little bit, and I was like, I don't think i've seen this before. Anyway, So I sent it to the publisher and I said, hey, can we get something like this on the cover. This would be cool.
I showed it to my friends and my friend is a ceremonial magician, a solemonic practitioner, and she was like, why do you have the first pentacle of Venus on the cover of your book, and I was like, oh, so that's the first Pentacle of Venus. Okay, got it.
So, but I actually ended up keeping it because she had mentioned she was like, you should get that changed, you should change it to something else, because the first Pentacle of Venus is all about Venusian energies, right, It's
like the purest embodiment of Venusian energy. And I actually thought that was kind of cheeky and funny because the chaos magic scene is so dominated by masculinity, and I mean, I don't ever really meet female chaos magicians, and so I thought it was cheeky and fun to put Venus right on the cover of my book.
And I was like, you know what, fuck it, let's go with Venus.
Venus is the planetary sphere that I actually work with the most in my own personal planetary magic. So I thought it was kind of a divine sign from Venus that I was on the right track because it's an entity I work with quite often. So I was like, you know what, Venus, let's go. Let's bring in some femininity. And I'm perfectly okay with Venus being on my cover. So it's not actually the eight pointed star, but yeah,
you know it works regardless. Venus rolls over so much more than people realize, so I'm happy with it.
And maybe it'll bring some material abundance.
Yeah right, bring it a tract attracting all the people onto the book cover. I have had so many people say, wow, you have such a beautiful book color. It's so attractive, and I was like, oh, that's funny because it's the first pinnacle of Venus.
It's very attractive.
So yeah, it's interesting though, even though I know, like the eighth point imported star, you know, with Venus, but then if you want to go with the number eight on the cabalistic tree of life, you would get Toath over there, and then that would go with writing and all that stuff. So I mean, very very very much fitting for you. Actually, I think.
Yeah, I did actually dedicate this book to Thoth. The very first page of my book it straight up says this book is dedicated to so thank you for everything, Like that's the very first page. So the whole book is thanks to him.
So yeah, you know, there was a lot of times when I would do rituals, I would kind of like take on his God form beforehand. Yeah, I was very much into Tooth for a while. It was a good dude for me. What was I going to ask?
Uh?
Oh? Yeah, you know, I do have some questions. It's kind of questions that sometimes I do ask, just you know, occultists that come on or other authors. Uh. I don't think I even mentioned him to you, And they're nothing too deep. It's just I kind of just want to get your idea when it comes to magic. And I would say specifically first with Alister Crowley. Now I know I don't know how what you're into him, but from what you know with him, and then and or other occultists.
And I'm asking this specifically also because you have a little bit more of academic side in science. Do you think that any of them are ever in their work trying to point to the eyeballs in the brain?
Oh, you are asking me something I know absolutely nothing about. But no, I actually do know a lot about Alister Crowley, and because he was actually he's not considered a grandfather of chaos magic by any means, but his rebellious spirit really kind of set the stage for other occultists to be able to develop what was chaos or what is
chaos magic now? So it was kind of like a chain of events and Crowley definitely played a part in that, though he's not really credited as any sort of founder, but so yeah, I do know of him and I could definitely speak to him. But as far as the eyeballs and the brain part, absolutely no idea. But I know that something that you might be a little bit more educated in, So.
Now I kind of want to hear what you would have to say about it.
Yeah, well, no, I do think so yeah, And you know, just a lot of times whenever I've asked other people on here, people even associated with like the Oto or or or even Thelima, sometimes I'll just ask them. I don't think I've really gotten well, there was one person after the show kind of confirmed certain things that I thought, but for the most about everybody pretty much says no. You know, So I was just wondering if you know
your opinion it sounds crazy. I know it might, uh, but I do think, like I'm just gonna put it out there. I'm not gonna get into it too much. I think his noox formula is all about the eyeball. That's my opinion. The eyeball and the pineal glin. So, but uh, yeah, I just wanted to ask you that another question that sometimes I do ask people. Yeah, I'm assuming you meditate, because you did talk about that. That was another thing I loved about your eight you know
lessons or your eight points or whatever. It was the first thing you mentioned. I was like, yes, because I think it's very important. I even think, like, not to, you know, bring his name up again, but I think even David Schumacher and living Thelima or at some point when he mentions, like, you know, things that you should do, I think meditation is the first thing he's like, it doesn't sound glorious exciting, but you're going to have to meditate.
When you meditate, have you ever seen it's almost like a pin dot or a blazing star or an eclipse.
Oh geez, Well, if you ask me about meditation, I could talk for thirty minutes to two hours about why it's important and all of these things.
I'm really passionate about it.
I was actually a Zen Buddhist for a strict Zen Buddhists for about five years before kind of switching my path to chaos magic afterwards, and so meditation was a huge part of my spiritual practice, and it was just a very It was a very asthetic approach for sure.
But no, I can't say usually my meditations. Now I will say I usually enter a trance in order to I'm also a seer, so that's something that has been part of my life for a really long time, so in order to gain visions or insight that is divinely inspired, or to communicate with spirits. But I can't say that I have experienced the eclipse that you're talking specifically. But please elaborate, because what do.
You mean by that?
Uh? It's uh. I mean I could probably send you like one of the shows where I went into it more. But like there's a whatever I do claim of across the abyss, and it's just an ongoing scenario of scenes that I see every time it happens. It starts off as this white pin dot that like literally with my eyes clos as it feels like there's actual depth in
my head as I view this thing. And at some point, you know, whatever doing whatever I'm doing as I'm meditating, it comes closer and turns into an eclipse, and then certain things happen after that. And if I let it go blast off. So I was just asking, you know, that's this is another question to ask people if they ever seen an eclipse.
Wow, No, that's really interesting. I wonder if I always wonder the things that we see in meditation, if they are conjured specifically for how we would personally interpret them, Like it may be an eclipse for you, but it might be something for someone else. But then we also have people that experience similar things, but that could be
also similar brain wiring at play. But yeah, I can't say that I have experienced that, but I think that's really interesting and I'm sure that it's showing up for you in the exact way that it needs to.
Well, thank you, I hope. So yeah, yeah, it was just like a lot of times I try to ask people about the cruelly thing and the eclipse. I just throw that out there. I know in your book, Uh, you know, what's funny you were talking about? There's something else you just mentioned before we else? Did you say that you're into as well.
A million things? Zen Buddhism, I think is the last thing that I mentioned. What else am I into? Psychology?
I feel like it was something like you contacting spirits or something like that. Was it like that?
Oh yeah during meditative states?
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah that was actually something I was like, Damn, I could get her on that for a whole episode.
Yes, you could talk about.
That, Yeah, but unfortunately it is it is your book that I did want to try to promote on here. You kind of split that up into like two sections correctly, like theory and then practice practice. What was the reason like, can you explain to the listeners what's the reasoning for you doing that?
Yeah?
So my book is split up into two parts. It first starts with theory. I think it's the first four chapters that are part of theory, and then the last three because it's seven chapters in total. I hope I'm not forgetting a chapter in my own book are a praxis, but the I think any occultist, first of all, from any tradition, needs to have a good balance between theory and praxis. I see so many people that are leaning
heavy one way or another. Where we have people that are heavy into theory, but then you know, we potentially have the chance for armchair magicians who are never actually doing the work and never having any sort of divine revelations themselves, and so they get into this analysis paralysis where all they're doing is reading books but they're never
actually doing the work. And then we have people that are doing practice, which is great and they're developing their own nosis, but they may not understand like the historical aspects of what they're doing, or you know, they're not bringing in the academy that really helps support and improve their skills of whatever it is they're doing. So I think any occultist of any tradition needs a good balance
of both theory and praxis. The theory part specifically, really goes over chaos magic theory before we even get into sigils, hyper sigils, servitors, you know, pop culture magic and invocation and all of those things. It's good to understand what chaos magic theory even is because chaos magic really is a perspective about how magic works. My book isn't going to tell you what to do, because that's not what chaos magic is about. I'm not going to sit here
and go, Okay, you must do this. This is stuff wanting to fuck that, throw that out the window. The chaos magic theory really relates to using your belief as a tool, entering a gnostic state prior to ritual and conversations about objective versus subjective reality and deconditioning your mind, like all the things that we've been talking about in this conversation so far. And then once you understand the theory part, go play, Go do a crazy invocation and
bring a god into your body. I know that's probably really responsible for me to say, but fuck around and find out, you know, be possessed by a demon.
I don't care.
Go experiment and do all the things your heart desires, but I just want to bring in play. So yeah, it's very much.
That's very much. It's very much how I kind of like took on ceremonial magic. I was like, yeah, just fuck around and find out I guess. I mean yeah, I mean it's kind of like to keep it real, even if with the ceremonial magician or I guess even cares magician very much like Headless has said it to me before, He's like, you know, a regular person, like you could have this wall of all these buttons and they'll I'll a lot tell you on the label what it does. A normal person will just take that for
what it says. A magician is gonna be like, I have to hit every one of these to see if it actually fucking does. I have to know from.
Experience, yep.
And then they're gonna put on a lamasuit while they do it. He could do and like you know, flying Spaghetti Monster. I don't know, because it's all about fun and creativity and figuring out what works.
So who cares?
Yeah, So I've been listening to this podcast about these children that have developed a sort of blindfold site, right, And so they're what they're doing is they're teaching these children to see you all blindfolded. And they've done this with blind children, and there's some sort of window that opens up for them if they're able to maintain sort
of like a childlike innocence of mind. Right, So it's a lot easier for children to get out of that, like you were saying, the conditioned state and then start to accept that maybe they're actually seeing without it. But the way that they have to do it is they have to cheat the mind. Originally by having the blindfolds with little opening so that light gets in, so that they think to themselves, well, I'm actually cheating. I'm cheating to see this figure even though it's you know, actually
sealed up. So the mind has to be tricked into believing that it can see under a blindfold for it to actually work. So there's a really interesting angle about play there too, because if you're not to play with it, if you get frustrated, if you you know, if you have an emotional reaction and not being able to do it, there's no way that you'll ever be able to teach yourself to see without your eyes.
Got interesting.
That is so interesting, and that kind of that kind of reminds me of all the cognitive biases we have. So as adults, we kind of become more rigid and solidified in what we think and what we believe, and our ego and all of our thoughts about how the world works and so on and so forth. And the whole goal is to kind of shed that right and
to go back to the primordial chaos. But if we think about just how the brain works in general, if we're if I'm examining my environment right now, we have all of these cues that are coming in, like the lights from my computer and the song of my or the sound of my dog being an asshole outside, you know, whatever, like, all these different things are coming in from my environment, and my brain is going to pass that through a reality threshold. And a reality threshold really decides what we
see and what we don't see. It needs to match or pass this reality threshold of our preconceived notions of how realcy works. So if we have these this input coming in from our external environment and it does not match our preconceived notions of what reality is, we actually our brain discards it and we don't see it. So for example, a spirit, let's say, let's just for the sake of it, say a spirit is floating in my room right now, I am in a conscious state where
my brain is constantly filtering things. I'm not even going to see that spirit because it doesn't match what I would perceive normal reality to be. And so that is why we have to drop down into these altered states and rituals so we can bypass the conscious mind. But what you're saying about the children and having to blindfold yourselves, yeah, you kind of have to trick your brain because your conscious mind has those filtering mechanisms that we need to bypass.
And then also just children in general.
I think that's such an interesting concept because they don't have that rigidity that adults have yet, and so their brains are just so free form and they can really experiment and do incredible things. There's always like that stereotype right where it's like the creepy child talking to spirits that nobody else can see, and you're like, all right, little kid, you're freaking me out.
I don't really like that.
And they can see stuff we can't, so yeah, I don't know, I'm monologuing, but that's really cool.
I was thinking too. That makes me think of panpsychism, like electrons all having consciousness and like sending information to each other like, and it makes me think of almost like it seems like these electrical fields in our bodies are almost like turned on or off, and I think for kids it's almost like they're fully open, fully on, and maybe as you get older, you like learn to kind of shut off different parts of yourself for whatever reason, and so it's like almost to also kind of align
your conscious with your subconscious, Like I think you really have to have a lot of those channels open to be able to do that properly. And I was just thinking about that, and like some alignment is required for that.
One hundred percent. I would agree with everything you said.
I think it should be called nation alignment. Right, So it's that naive state where nobody's ever told you you can't do it before, So why can't you do it? You know, it's it's that nation alignment. I think that's that's a good way I put it.
There's an important point that Ivy keeps springing up. I would you slightly obviously slightly different links to describe it. But she's talking about the same thing, and we call it disaggregation or you can call it, as I like to say on Twitter, breaking kleep us same thing. So it's you want to break the preconceptual like models of reality, but you but you don't want to be fixed in
the antithesis either. This is something like Headliss said, like can disbelieve sort of negate, but negation is not as powerful a force.
It just isn't.
Belief is much more. It's a polarity unto itself. Almost belief is not the antithesis of belief. Disbelief I mean, so yeah, I agree. I agree with everything that Aeros and Ivy said. It's so important to like, if you
want to call it shadow work. You can call shadow work, but I think that there's even something that about shadow work, Like people can get kind of stuck down there, stuck in the tunnels of sets, and people call it, and like they'll talk about like depression or like all these things and that, Yeah, those are like normal human experiences, normal human consciousness. Everybody you know goes through their thing.
But I think, like, really, if you want to truly break them or truly disaggregate, you have to kind of also let like the negative go the negative sort of forces as well. I can't just be like I liked why we said at the beginning. It's like I'm not like, I'm not a love to impath archristian.
Yeah, I hear you. I counter this a lot myself.
So it's hard because you want to bring things into balance, into synthesis, but also into rectification.
Definitely.
I just wanted to comment really quick on the left hand path right hand path dichotomy. I really try to embody a middle path, and I actually think that a middle path is a healthy, holistic way to go about it.
Just my personal opinion.
People can do whatever they want, but I don't even use those terms anymore. I always wonder is that kind of like an outdated perspective and we're kind of using that terminology right because we don't really have better words to use. But I do wonder if sometimes it is more of an outdated perspective with right hand path versus left hand path, because.
I find that most of us are kind of in the middle.
Even people that identify as left hand path, when you look at their practices, they kind of embody a little bit of both. So I don't even know if the distinction is necessary anymore. Maybe that's a hot take. I don't know if that's controversial or not.
I agree, Oh, I co sign that one hundred percent agree. Like that's why I called it the gray Lodge, because it's like, yeah, it's bringing in both, it's bringing both ideas, but you're not like going to extremes.
You're just looking at it.
Maybe you call it nargo union or maybe call it nondual or whatever you want to call it.
Gnostic and you just kind of take it as ideas.
You don't say, oh, I must go do this just because Pigatrick says this, Like no, you're just you're.
Taking as conceptual ideas.
Maybe you'll work in some sigil things, or maybe you'll even try and recreate the seal, but you know, it has to be pragmatic, has to be like about life, because we are alive and we're here. It can't be like an in negation of that. I think that's what my personal critique of the Loft and Path would be, is like, not all of it all that. Some of it's very life positive, but a lot of it can be very nihilistic as well. And I think like Buddhism
is very life positive. I know people will say, maybe fight me, but I think it's I think of it as very life affirming, like we have this life to do what we choose and to like you know, practice arma or practice magic, and yeah, we should do that.
I think.
I was going to say to you about the shadow work and getting caught up in the shadow work. I mean, shadow work is one thing, but if you're not training your subconscious like it's you're not going to actually be changing anything within yourself.
That's it. That's a good point.
I would agree with that.
Definitely, don't get me started on shadow work because I am such a snob when it comes to how people talk about the shadow work.
I don't. Don't even get me going on.
You know what, one thing I do want to say, Maybe this is where where Ivy will agree with too. I feel like a lot of people when they talk about they're doing shadow work, it's like, no, you're just running with your demons right now, like like you stop, like you've been dealing with the same thing for six months. You're you know, you're enjoying it now.
Like yeah, that's one of the problems.
Yeah, but uh, was there anybody else have any other questions or anything? No, Jue, I mean I do, well, go for it, I.
Ask so so I I mean, I think that's just really interesting because I don't ever associate both with chaos. I associate him with order kind of or like a balance of the chaos and order. And so I was wondering, like, how do you relate to how does Thoth relate to your practice? I know that's kind of personal, but whatever you will share about that.
Yeah, I love this question. Actually, that's such a good question.
I can only talk a little bit about it because it's part of my spiritual contract with him that I am not able to speak about our relationship to a certain level of detail. For a specific period of time. I'm still in the five year contract. I think it's year three with him, So we have a contract where I want to make sure that when I speak about something publicly, I want to make this sound so terrible. I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about.
And I don't want to start working with both in the first five years and try to assert myself as some sort of authority figure on how to work with both or who Foth is and so on and so forth.
I just don't like that.
Other people can do that if they want to, but if I'm going to talk about something with authority, I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about. So for the first five years of working with him, it is part of our contract that I don't really
share the ins and outs. But I will say that from the Chaos magic perspective, it's all about it goes back to belief, right, So it doesn't really matter whether Foth is an actual god or if he's an eggergorre or a figment of my imagination and just a psychological archetype. If I am working with him from the perspective that my belief in him makes him real and makes that and makes change in my reality.
That's what matters at the end of the day.
So in working with him, I find that a lot of chaos magicians actually work with various deities. It's just that the way that they work with them is from a different perspective. Because a non chaos magician might work with Thoth or Hecatea or whatever God they're working with, it might actually believe that that God is objectively real
regardless of their belief in them. They would believe that that God lives in some sort of upper realm, lower world, shadow world, you know, so on and so forth, whereas the ka is that deity is dependent on the chaotes belief in them.
So I don't really.
Find any There's no friction really in working with his dogma because I'm not succumbing to his dogma, if that makes sense. So I still work with both in more traditional means, and I really work with him for the purpose of writing, because he is kind of a mystical being that governs over writing and scripture and things of that nature. And just as a writer myself, I write
nonfiction and fiction. It's I don't ever actually talk about that on any of my channels, but I do write other stuff outside of the occults.
So he is very much kind of like.
A muse of inspiration and I give offerings to him, and in an exchange, he gives me inspiration and we write together. So yeah, it's actually a really really fun relationship to have with him. It just takes a lot of I would say discipline, because both the entity that I've been working with this both very much likes asceticism
and discipline. That is one thing that I noticed working with this entity versus And I use the word entity because I find it's a lot more inclusive than saying god, because then we go back to the idea of is it a god or not?
Who knows? I don't care.
So this entity that I'm working with does tend to be a lot more disciplined and rigorous than any other entity I've ever worked with.
And I kind of like that.
I like when somebody is slapping my wrist a little bit and it's like, Okay, get going, we need to be disciplined, we need to I really enjoy that type of energy as like a very type a personality.
So yeah, I don't know.
I haven't really had any friction with it. It's been a really really fun experience.
Well, I was going to bring up william S Burrows and his cut up method that's sort of like a staple of left hand path chaos magic, and that's working directly with these words that you're scrambling up. And then you know, it almost like pisss off both so much. He's got to interact with you with the with the words that he's bringing order to so in some sense, you know, it's it's almost like an aggravation that that you're trying to you know, produce something of in from that aggravation.
Yeah, I definitely don't take that approach, but that is an approach that people can take.
I guess provocation is an excellent cabalistic tool.
I'll just say that, I.
Know, with a very powerful I used to, like I said, I used to use Tooth a lot of to Hoody even used to have a statue form and everything. I used to look at him, you know a lot like uh, I guess like being there kind of like the chaos as well as in form and the you know, And the reasoning for me to even originally start looking at it like that is that he's even known from being there at the beginning to witness everything come to be.
You know, he was there to categorize everything. So it's like, was he the chaos already watching it, have an experience and everything start becoming you know, whatever it is. I don't know. So it's like in some way, you know, it does his story does even kind of tell you he's been there since the beginning.
Yeah, his story is really really interesting. He has been there from the absolute beginning. I know some people would argue that maybe some other goddesses or are more ancient than him, of course, but yeah, to see his development, and then we have like the conversion of the Greeks and the Egyptians coming together and merging him with Hermes, and then we have you know, Hermeticism and all this stuff. His lore is really really interesting. And that's why I
always bring up the concept of egregres. Are we actually working with the original ancient Egyptian deity or are we working with something different now, especially with occultism, because now we have brought him into so many organizations, so many occult rituals, and has this god morphed over time because of our beliefs in this god changing and us feeding our magical energy into it. So again, that's why I go back to do we call it an entity or god? I don't know, and it doesn't matter.
That's a really good point. Is it like even the same thing anymore interesting?
Looks like the Akasha energy field?
You know, it's like, thank you very much, go ahead.
Sorry, you know, I was going to say just that both embodies the principles over rules and rituals.
It's all about the principles and do.
You know, do what you will with those principles, not necessarily dogmatic ideas.
I think the scribes might disagree that worked with him forever ago, but also that was a completely different time and a completely different, you know, so different reality that we're living in nowadays.
Do you ever see that show American Gods?
No, I have not.
I love the toth in that movie that in that show.
Well, I actually think I could synthesize what Ethan is saying and what Ivy is saying, and I think I can even make an argument ask to why and adding in a little what Nick sad, because like toath is very hard like for going to use kwala like it's like the eight and so right, So yeah, exactly like
what Nick said, he's chaos and in form. He is the watcher, he is the witness, and maybe that's his consciousness as well, maybe that's our consciousness because Hoade is linked to the Bene Elohim, the sons and daughters of Man.
Sank just saying.
But also I think, you know, I think he's a god of syntax, and just is just my personal I'm not a pagan, I'm not like, you know, like all that, but I think you think he's the god of word order, ritual word order, because this is something we have in NTRA, like we have the idea of ritual syntax, ritual grammars. And so I think that Ethan's right that he can be a god of like how to remix it into a coherent, cogent way. But he isn't necessarily like it's
it's still within a certain set of rules. But maybe it appears as opposite or appears as backwards, so but it's still adhering to a certain set of rules. Maybe just the other polarity of it. I don't know, that's just an idea I had.
H Well, doesn't he order chaos? So I guess it's just kind of interesting like that would kind of fit perfectly with chaos magic, because that's what, in a way, you're doing, right, You're ordering chaos. You're ordering that primordial and into a form.
That's actually the most beautiful way to say that. You were saying it that way. No, it's so true, because that's what the chaos magician does. You take primordial chaos and you manipulate your reality to whatever you want it to be.
So yeah, and you create order from that.
It's pretty well done, very nice, right.
A lot of you know, podcasters think that chaos magic is is the goal is to produce more chaos in the world, and it's like, really, I mean, can't you look into it a little bit more?
And that is what I'm actually doing. Can I just can I just go off on that for a second?
Go for one of the most annoying things ever, One of the biggest misconcessions about chaos magic is that it's so chaotic and we're just trying to create chaos and discord and whatever. Some people might but also every occultist of there's so many different traditions where there's always going to be those people that are trying to cause chaos and strife. Okay, So it is not intrinsically chaos magic.
Chaos magic is about working with primordial chaos. And I think people get tripped up because of the word chaos in chaos magic, and they think it just means, you know, causing strife and chaos in the world, and that that really drives me crazy, especially because there's this element of record keeping and discipline that comes into a chaos magic practice, especially if you are performing belief shifting also known as paradigm jumping, and you're doing invocations, and you really should
be keeping a record and you should be disciplined in your practice. So it's actually not disorganized at all. Most of the chaos magicians that I know are some of the most disciplined occultists that I've met, and also the most well versed occultists that I've met, because they've tried a bunch of different things, they've experimented, they've kept their records, and so to say that chaos magic is just disorganized is honestly an insult, and it really irritates me.
So that's one of the biggest misconceptions. I can't stand it well.
When it comes to the occult is tones of misconceptions.
Yeah, for sure, for sure, that's something I think this had no go go.
I just want to say, I think that's what I was speaking to about Discordanism and how Discordanism is much more of an ethos. I would say, it's not necessarily like, oh, yeah, we're going to pray to Airis. Like obviously you talked about Austin Osman Spare and his like use of sigils as words, like because all of his sigils have poems and like, I'm very fond of this as well as like someone who like dabbles in writing, and I'm sure
Ivy is as well. Like his stuff is for me, it's the most interesting because he incorporates both image and work,
which I think is really powerful. But no, I think I'm sorry, I totally forgot what I was saying, but no, I Discordanism, So I think, yeah, this a ethos, it's not necessarily like, yeah, there are people, They're sure, there are people who like, we're going to pray to Eris and you know, like you can treat her like it's a real entity and like thing, Yeah, sure, okay, but you know it's also just like we're going to cause chaos. We're gonna, you know, deconstruct everything. We're going to be
the rebels against everything. And it's and as I be saying, like we have to be pragmatic. It's twenty twenty five, Like it's not about destroying the world time, it's about like we have to make of this world like what we can. I think is much more of a pragmatic approach to magic, and like a pragmatic approach to life, pragmagic.
I like that.
There we go, so teaching that in your great love. If you guys don't mind, only because unfortunately we do have an I have another show at six o'clock. I will probably wrap it up, Ivy. I mean, unfortunately, we could probably go on for hours about certain things, and I would hopefully would love to get you on again in the future. I thought this was an amazing and amazing talk with you. Yeah, you really fit right in with us. I had a blast having you on. It
was better than I expected. Put it that way. And before we let you tell everybody where they can find all your stuff and everything, I'll have the other people on the show there are the rejects, remind everybody where they can find their work and Errows first up, let everybody know where they can find all your stuff. Please.
You can find my stuff on YouTube at Arrows Up and on Twitter at Arrows to Ethos. Check it out.
Thank you appreciate it. Yes, definitely go check out and stuff, especially if you're the neoplatinism. My man jin what is going on? Innji?
Thank you so much, boss, and thank you to the panel, and thank you especially to Ivy, but also to Arrows, who's the first time I've worked with you, so thank you so much.
It was really pleasure.
Also, so you can find me at Wukong Reborn to a Uko and g Reborn at on Twitter or x and ig at Threshold Saints as well as Twitter for the show account. And I'll have two episodes dropping this week, probably three to be honest about it, because I'm a little behind, but well yeah, I'll try and get that.
And you can also follow us up.
In Great Lodge YouTube channel like and subscribe, and I really this was like incredible. Thank you so much, Ivy, and thank you Nick for setting.
It up of course, thank you for joining it, glad you made and my man Ethan Indigo what is going on?
Sir?
That was awesome?
Nick.
Thank you for putting this together. Ivy. Thank you for all the insights and points of inspiration. And I think I'm a chaos magician officially for all of that. Yeah, and yeah, I'm easy to find on the internets and I always appreciate talking with you guys. And yeah, please everyone please communicate with me if they feel it's so inclined. Again, appreciate you.
Thank you so much, Havy, thank you for making it Ethan and Headless Giant. What is going on, sir?
Yeah, you're doing. You can find me doing alchemy on Mondays with Arrows. You can find me doing the Trialogues on Sundays with Ethan. You can find me doing the Magical Mailbag on Thursdays with Nick. So check it out, Headless Giant, anywhere good stuff is at.
So thank you, thank you, sir, and finally back to you Ivy again. I really I had a blast. It was great. There was certain things that we talked about that it's just like brought back memories. It's like, Wow, I haven't talked about this shit since I was like heavily practicing, So it was like your memory lane for me too as well. Thank you so much again, I really think this was an awesome episode. I'm really happy to put this out. Please let everybody know where they can find all your stuff.
Sure, well, I just have to say thank you all so much for being so nice.
I usually don't go on podcasts because it gives me an insane amount of anxiety, so I appreciate you all being so nice. I feel like this conversation flowed really effortlessly, and I just appreciate you all a lot. I'm very much an introvert, so thank you for being kind to me. Also, I am Ivy the Occultist on YouTube and Instagram, so you can either type in Ivy Occultist or Ivy Coorpus and that's it.
That's me.
Awesome again, thank you so much for coming on, and definitely go check out her stuff again if you're interested in, you know, the occult and whatever. Magic Again listening to that eight what is it again? The exact name for them? That eight lessons or eight points?
Oh, I don't even know. It's pinned on.
If you go to the homepage of my YouTube channel, it should be one of the very first videos that are pinned.
It's like top ten or something.
Eight essential tips for beginner occultists. Is that it?
Yes, that's the one I made that so long ago, and I actually hate that video, but I'm glad.
Yo.
When I heard you say meditation and brain waves, I was like, yo, she just say brainwaves, was like, yeah.
What I said. I stan't buy it, It's just yeah.
Anyway, it was just filmed a long time ago, and I don't like how I look in it and anyways, so.
All right, yeah, definitely go check it out. But again, thank you so much for coming on, and everybody who came on too. I really appreciate all your rejects for jumping on. This is a really really fun episode. I'm glad it happened, and hopefully we'll get to do it again one day in the future. And that is it. Lada