Anti Psychonaut with Richard Ruach & Collin Conkwright

Head List is magical mail Bag. We go over some of your emails about occult experiences that you can send to us at the Headless Giant Podcast at gmail dot com. And also we're doing a remote viewing audience participation, so definitely check those out.

eight thirty in the fucking morning tomorrow morning. We got David James Smith coming on, and I guess I coordinated with him and somehow, I guess eight thirty sounded like a good time tomorrow. So we got all of us and sky Mathis will be joining us. So I have no problem going live. But if everybody else is functioning, uh, you know, maybe we'll go live and you can catch us tomorrow morning if you're up. Uh. Now let's move on to the guests. Uh, we got Richard Ruac. What

is going on? Sir? How are you please let everybody know where they can find all your amazing work?

Everybody loved You're already a fan favorite, so I'm really looking forward to having you back on, especially for this topic. And finally other guests, another one who's been on before. I had a great time with the dude, everybody loved it as well, and looking forward to hopefully working with them more often. Colin Concrete, please let everybody know where they can find your show and let them know where you're going to be speaking in April.

like digital links. You don't have to be a Freemason to attend, so that that should be really really fun.

A couple of weeks ago I had somebody on that was completely other way, and I do appreciate my opinion. I don't think the drugs are needed. It was still an interesting topic, so I appreciate you guys coming on and actually covering it the other way. So I guess maybe we'll start with Richard. I guess what was it that made you kind of like think about bringing this at the table? Do you think it's like something that needs to be talked about nowadays?

make it, it's like someone else surely can. And so where I see dead ends and you know, the ultimate dead end is the path with no effort for the path with no obstacles, the path with no obstacles away.

need to be in their place. Anything out of their out of its place, becomes all consuming and fundamentally damaging. And so through this talk or throughout like you know, I'll back and forth, I wanna I want to handle the home my thesis that drugs can be used for healing, certainly psychedelics can be used for healing. There is a therapeutic benefit two these uh two LSD, two d MT two ayahuasca. Whatever there is certainly therapeutic benefits to them.

But healing is not the same as regeneration. Creating a new organ or regrowing an arm is very different from healing trauma or a scratch. And so you know, if healing, if you have a baseline number zero and you come sick, you go minus, you go minus ten, minus twenty. Healing brings you back to zero. I'm not interested in that.

What takes you beyond zero, What takes you to plus ten plus twenty plus one hundred, What takes you all the way to the sky, to the absolute, to the different dimensions, to the heavens, What takes you beyond merely human, I'm not interested in. And this is and this is going to sound harsh, but I think people we need to be harsh. There's been too much flower, flower and hugs. I think I need to say it's being a loser and then becoming a normal person has nothing to do

with spirituality or initiation. And it's it's great, it's great that your cousin who was you know, didn't have a job and was broken person went to an ajuasca shaman and now he's a functioning member of society. But that has nothing to do with initiation, and that's what I hope we can talk about today.

dogmatism and whatnot. So you'll get a lot of people that, you know, they'll have their psychedelic experience, but they won't have any kind of natural experience that this sort of equates to that. And then it's really easy from from that perspective to be like, oh, this must be this is what the mysteries about, this is why people have religion, et cetera, et cetera. It becomes this blanket that you

throw on everything. This is usually always an incorrect thing to do with with any kind of conclusion, is to just just throw it out there. Is like this is the end all be all. So the big, the big critique here is against like the psychedelic maximalists, the ones that you want to say it's it's all psychedelics, it must have originated from psychedelics. The only time you can see entities and communicate with these other intelligences is during

these radical states of being on psychedelics. And that's just reductionary and dogmatic and everything else. And it's just not it's not the case. So a lot of people want to impose that on the Eleusinian mysteries in particular. But of course there was a lot of other mystery rights and and you know, ceremonial rights going around, especially the Eastern Mediterranean, you know, in the ancient world, and a lot of the actual initiates of those mysteries wrote about them,

and we have their extracts. You know, even though we've lost ninety nine point nine percent of all ancient literature from all the languages, you know, we still have these, uh, these rich descriptions of the mysteries. And of course, being that they're mysteries, they're always vowed to secrecy to some degree, so they you know, usually the initiates, as we see with Plutarch, even Herodotus. Right, they'll come up to this point and then they'll say we can say no more. Right,

that's just freemasons do that till this day. That's a common practice in these kind of initiatory rights. But from the descriptions that we do have, for instance, the one I'm going to read at some point tonight from Strabo, which is very lengthy, and from a lot of these other descriptions, you know, we get the idea that when these rights were performed correctly, So for like the Olusinian rites, there was like thirty thousand people that could see a

certain drama play out. Then there was three thousand, and then it got reduced to like a handful of people that could actually get initiated in the teleisterion, right, And so those are the individuals that when I'm talking about what is happening in the mysteries and these initiat initiation rights, is that smaller percentage of the initiates there. And the description is it basically results in the absence of a fear of death and the coming close to us, to

a state quite close to death and realizing immortality. And then you're then you come back with a whole different perspective, and maybe in this visionary experience you've encountered gods and goddesses and so forth. So that's that indicates that there's this radical experience going on, right. And here's the deal. It's if you think it's just a psychedelic, you know, because all it takes for a psychedelic is you just

swallow something and then there's an experience after that. But for these mysteries, in some cases, people were preparing for six months in advance. Right. They're fasting, they're marching, you know, along, they're they're conversing with people from all of these different countries, they're doing all of these practices. There's a there's a level of anticipation there. It's like hitting you on all

of these different sensory stimuli. Right. So, for instance, in Strabo's uh description of the mysteries is he he says that you know, they're performed kind of in accordance with like a festival, and in that, you know the candidates that will be singing and dancing going on over here, there will be an oration over there, deep discussion about something over here, you know, singing and chanting kind of

getting out of your comfort zone, altering your state of being. Meanwhile, there's all this anticipation there, there's like this group mindset mentality. So all of these you know, there's no drug that is needed here. These are just like natural stimuli coming in and you know, those in the in and of themselves and lead to these radical experiences, even out of

body experiences and so on. And we you know, we have good even modern institutions, let's say the Monroe Institute and so forth, they don't require psychedelics for any of their out of body experience training and this or that. So it's it's just objectively, the psychedelic maximalist argument is just incorrect in terms of the source material and the available scientific data that we have right now. So it's

it's just kind of like it just gets disappointing. And I think Richard agrees with me here, is that it's disappointing that people want to, you know, corner everything to the psychedelics when there's so much easily accessible data out there that just says otherwise, right, And so that's you know, that's kind of where I begin my kind of approach to this. This whole thing.

pitch for why these things need to be legalized. Whereas if you had, you know, sort of a society that didn't view putting substances in your body like this as being a bad thing, I think the rationale would be to moderate more. But I think it's the sales pitch that really ruins it for everybody, because you have to

create an overwhelming intellectual force to get anything done. Whereas, you know, in a different situation, let's say the Ollucinian mysteries, it wasn't that big of a deal to have, you know, a small amount of psychedelic in the wine and then you know, go from there, as opposed to this being the only path now because that's what everybody's talking about.

of limitations, and we love these easy fixes. We love these quick gratifications and stuff, especially if it if it meets our physical desires and if we can you know, incorporate it into some erotic fantasy and things like this. So that's that's sort of an abuse, an abuse of

these things. And it's like, you know, it's one thing to do that, do it once or twice and and whatnot, but then you can get into a sort of psychedelic induced mental mental illness, and you know, so there's a danger aspect of it of it there that the sort of recreational community, you know, Yeah, we need to talk about that, the danger see or the set and setting. So apply all of these you know, standards of safety. But you know, I can steal man the psyche the

pro psychedelic argument. I can never steel man the psychedelic maximalist argument that it's only that right, I can because

that's clearly not the case. But psychedelics have a place here and they do occasionally come up, and you know, the ancient literature and these very bizarre you know, it's like in the Pika Trix there's this thing like, you know, one of the different hermes is produces this this like psychedelic oil by throwing opium and human blood and like sesame oil into a jar with a head, putting it over charcoals for twenty four hours and then you know, straining the liquid and if you rub it on you

you it says you will see whatever you want to see, and if you ingest it, you will see whatever you want to see. So it's like, we don't really know what substance he's talking about, but it is it is at least kind of indicative that, okay, you know, someone somewhat where in this kind of milieu possibly possess some kind of substance that they could see visions with and everything else. But usually when I find these these indications of some kind of psychedelic going on, it's not clear.

It's not really telling you that the kaikon is you know, it is what is doing this, It is what is allowing you to like not fear death. It's never that clear, and you would think that it would be that clear if it was the the end all be all, And that's that's the issue, is that, like even Brian murra Rescues Immortality Key, you know, we come so far into that book and yet we're so inconclusive. And don't get me wrong, I love the scholarly effort that it takes

to try to make these makes these things. You know, let them please continue your research, you know, because I'm interested in finding the truth. And like, if we can't find that the kaikion isn't isn't what you know, isn't like an l I LSD kind of thing, then we're sort of gonna have to do away with that and get right back to, you know, what the initiates themselves were telling it was going on.

in modern society we fundamentally have a materialist metaphysics. And this is incredibly problematic as well, because the ancient sore of the spirit world, they had an understanding they weren't all atheists In modern day society, there's this reaction against the institutionalized religions, like we don't want a priest class regulating access to the other world.

They're just part of your mind or you can only use psych It's something material, It's something external to myself that I put into my interior to change the interior thing. Whereas in the initiatic schools there were always techniques, a technology, a system, an engine that's internal that uses the internal to change the internal, rather than getting an external force

to change the external. So I and that's another reason why I react against psychedelics and the use of drugs, is because to me, I see a subtle materialism behind them. It's like, you need to use this this to get to the spirit world.

different techniques for mushroom tea. And yet we have these sacred texts, We have systems, We have manuals for how to meditate, for how to do prayer, for ceremonial magic, these these technologies exist so.

It might be a nice influence, but I think it's a matter of just laziness and yeah, materialism and so forth, that we're not getting deep with it in the you know, preparation process of itself by itself and just oh yeah, let's just have fun. And I'll use it as an excuse of my my gnostic pursuits.

like they are experiencing, you know, at least the ones that I know of, they are experiencing what they're experiencing. It might not be real for us, but for them, it's totally real, and that's why they're in the situation you know that they're in. So there's there's a lot of these aspects here. Like so it's it's even it's even the idea that psychedelics, you know, it's not clear to me that they play even like a more than a fifteen percent, like fifteen percent of a that's like

that's high and in and of itself. So like it's it's lower than I think people think. But I do admire the effort of you know, certain rec like PD Newman for instance. I mean, he does great research to try to figure out where the psychedelics actually have their place, and like that is commendable other than just without the evidence here just sort of saying that that that you know, it's everywhere, we can find it everywhere, but it's like

it really is. You know, it's also indicative that we focus on the psychedelics so much is that we've kind of we're not putting in the effort with all of these different practices. It's like crea yoga and you know, different things like like reiki and just all the breath work, the things that can happen in you know, holotropic breathing and stuff like people will have visions there. So there's all of these other natural visionary technologies that we need

to exhaust. We haven't done that yet. We need to exhaust exhaust them, you know, at this more I think open level. It's like I think the days of sort of keeping all the secrets among your your sort of cult and your little initiatic circle or whatever, those days

are kind of behind us. I mean even Freemasons, even Freemasons are openly discussing details of the rituals because they're out there already, if you know, you know Duncan's ritual, Like you can find all of this stuff already, and and so it's like, well, that means the Masons need to come in and try to discuss what's going on because they're the only ones that have actually experienced it, you know, so it's like they can actually talk about it.

But so it's like the people who experience the mystery rights in the ancient world, they also wrote things and discussed them, and I just think it's important that let's exhaust those sources before we start drawing up these conclusions and like groping after what the what the kai ki? What the you know, the substance of the drink? Actually?

just do a little bit better research. I might be ignorant of the books or something that exists out there, but like there are cool accounts that are clearly something psychedelic is going on that no one actually discusses, Like Michael Sellis in his on the Operations of Demons his book, he talks about the Boga Mill sect which is a sort of like Manichean kind of gnostic so called group of Christians that were allegedly practicing these kind of orgiastic

rights and you know, summoning demons and so forth. Some of this is like a polemic against them from orthodox Christian Christian perspective, but in like kind of like a side note in one of his descriptions, he says, some Vaga bond from Africa, you know, initiated someone on a mountain side and like these obscure rights, and he pulled out this oil and he rubbed it over this person's eyes.

And this person clearly is initiated into this kind of psychedelic mystery and sees all of these daemon's and stuff, and this raven flies into his throat, you know, And there is like in certain psychedelic experiences, there's like this like Ganesha will put her trunk down your throat or something like that and like suck away the negative energy or whatever. So it's like that's that's a that's a

little extract that people should zoom in on. The psychoonatic researchers should zoom in on that extract, right, same with the text the Revelation of the magi you know, recent recent English translation for that, but it's it's like a one of a kind apocryphal Christian text, probably late second century, and it describes the star that brings the magi to baby g Jesus in the you know, the Book of Matthew,

which sort of fills in the gaps there. And long story short, these magi that encounter this orblan like angel who is also the Son of God, the pre incarnate you know, son of God, Jesus Christ figure himself, and out of this this light, the Son of God figure gives gives the magi like these provisions and these sacred provisions the magi eat and they have clearly have visions directly do to uh to these particular provisions and stuff.

So it's like there's an example that psychedelic researchers could hone in on and maybe you know, do something with, maybe compare it to other apocryphal accounts, maybe compare it to the kind of anointing oil accounts. Right, So it's not to say that there aren't mysteries here and worthy investigations. There definitely are, but like, let's let's do that, and let's let's see what we can unearth from that instead of doing this sort of a you know, the game of conclusions.

basic stages for someone completely new, who's experienced nothing. And that's another place where I see it's reasonable nowadays, Like if you do have someone who is a complete materialist maybe and they just want something like you know, Carlos Castaneda, maybe he needed the peyote and he wasn't gonna make it otherwise. So it's like the most basic, like kindergarten thing you can use that for. But that's not once again, the map is not the terrain. The map is not

the engine. There's two different things, and it's like you're not moving on the path. Oh I dissolved my ego through that. It's like nah, No, it's like it's the most basic thing and then there's a greater work afterwards.

So if you're trying to get in touch with the spirits and you've actually done it before on the substance, repeating that off of the substance should be the goal, because you are actually trying to converse on a normal level playing field with the entities over in that realm. So what they've done is they've they've mistaken the bridge

for the only way across the chasm. And that's that sort of seems to be the thing with the materialistic elements, is that they don't have a conception that maybe these things are real outside of the substance.

these experiences. And it's like everyone's been everyone who's been to a music festival these days knows that this shit is being done without reverence. It's just like, you know, if you're drinking bud light on like three grams of shrooms and like also like stucking down a nicotine vape, like, dude, that that shits, don't you know? There's a lot going on there.

taking psychedelics. So now the issue is is that these big, these big you know, talking heads and these figures on these podcasts, they're just sort of the the Eleusinian mysteries. It was a psychedelic thing, and like that's it hasn't been concluded that strongly. Yet at the at the very best, a recent study done on the on the ergod and their whole mixture showed that there is a possibility that it produced a low grade LSD kind of effect, but it would it would have been a very small amount

if it if it did that. So that's like, I think that's the state of that research right now, is that there there can be some extraction there, but it's extremely low dosage, you know, and I don't think any

humans have actually tested it out though. That's that's the issue. So, yeah, there's there's a lot of these there's a lot of these problems, and it would all be solved if people read read the books, you know, and and went out there and had natural experiences, and you know that they could compare and contrast to their psychedelic experiences as well,

because that's the thing, you know, I've experienced both. And yet I'm still you know, pretty pretty strongly like, yeah, I strongly disagree with where this whole movement as has taken course.

in the control of the setting. And I'll just be totally honest with you, most of them their perception of reality completely fucking changed after that, in my opinion, weird, like now all of a sudden, everywhere he's like related to Pladians or some fucking reptilian fucking races coming into and I'm just like, what the fuck happened? Very I'll just see, you know, and like maybe sometimes that's not

the best thing either, I don't know. But like even another thing I wanted to add, and I wanted to say this earlier, but I won't let you guys go and know the reasons why I find this it's topic interesting because I was friends with somebody who was very it was very close to me that was very big into using these psychedelics, and unfortunately, I mean, it is what it is. If the kids even listening to the show when he was using the shit continuously means life

turned to shit, married, divorced, moved on on? How many times? All this like? So as like a magician who's supposed to be doing this stuff to have spiritual experiences and work on shadow work, didn't look like you were getting anyway, my man, looks like things are getting worse. So just to me, it was just like, you know, is the drugs the problem? I don't know, But again, just even perception. Fuck you all up with that shit too, your perception of reality.

here's the thing, here's the thing. The difference. When you take psychedelics, there's also a passivity, a passivity in your essence, whereas when you are engaged in the work in initiatic workings. There's activity, like you know, you can take a drug or and that will change your phenomenology. But you can overload yourself with anything. You can take alcohol and that

will give you weird experiences as well. Like I know people who kind of feel a separation when they take alcohol, which is very interesting, Like they feel the part of themselves that gets drunk and there's that other part of them that goes, oh, I'm getting drunk, and it's like

they can see this kind of dualism. But it's like, if you take a hundred cups of coffee, you'll also change your phenomenal I guarantee you you will experience a phenomenological difference of the world if you take one hundred cups of coffee. But nonetheless, one of the points of spiritual work or experience in my experience as meeting people and talking to people. There's a lot of spiritual experience that've gained through practice and work is very subtle, and

the whole point is to kind of refine yourself. So it's like I use the example of you know, you get a gem like a topaz, and you hold it in your hand and you close your eyes and it's like what do you feel? And some people kind of like, ah, my gem bible says a topez caurs, no, no, no, throw your gem bible in the bin. What do you feel when you have like the topez in your in your hand and it's like you are trying to interact with that thing. You're trying to that thing is speaking

to you. Everything in the world is speaking. The wind is speaking, the tree is speaking, the grass is speaking. There's this continuous dialogue that's always happening. It's just our faculties, our physical faculties are overloaded, and so that information that comes in, that super sensible information is sent into our subconscious we're not conscious of it is there. And some people are very intuitive, and you know, they know when a plant needs this and that they've got the you know,

the green thumb, because they can speak to plants. It's in them. It's in them. It's it goes into their subconscious and something red just as consciously. But for most people it goes into the subconscious and it stays there. Whereas when you do esoteric practice, you try to draw that out, you try to engage with that, and you do that actively. When you take substance there's and you would even in like if you do the environment properly and you fast for forty days, there's still a passivity

to it. And this is problematic because I always remember it's like a kind of a root off Steiner lecture. At one point he talks about the astral belt of lies, and I was like, Oh, this is interesting because there's an esoteric spin on the in the astral world, in the lower astral world, there's a belt where when you hit it, it's illusory but and so it's and it's not it's real, but it's real. But there's the truth

in the lie gets mixed together. And when a truth and a lie gets mixed together, that's that's double trouble because truth is often dry. But when you add life lies to truth, then it starts to sparkle. And also lies if you push against them. If you push against a lie, it'll fall over. But if you have truth there to prop it up, the lie becomes actually quite reinforced. So when you mix truth with lie, it's just like that astral belt of lies is one of the biggest,

the biggest problems. And I'm like, ah, and this is also for people who don't take drugs for people who have a little bit of delusion in them, and then they get into the spiritual work and they start doing numerology, they read the Kabali on once and then all of a sudden they think they're Jesus and Karnate. It's like, this is a perennial problem. And just because you're taking

a psychedelics that doesn't you don't skip that process. There is a very a process very early on where it's like a megalomania almost, And it's like those spiritual beings that are beyond the veil, they may not that may be just a quality of the astral belt of lies and so you may not. Oh anyway, and this is just it. I see people just like your friend continuously who are stuck. It's like I met a guy, I know,

I know a guy. Actually he's doing well now, but I met him down and Byron, well he's from Byron. Let's let me just say Byron Bay, Australia. If you know what's what happens there, you know what happens there. This guy the list of drugs he took like it would if it rolled out on a scroll, The scroll would go across the room. He told me that he took a like al oscar thirteen times and it's like the last time he took it was like a triple

dose or something. And he said he had this experience where like the void opened up and all the gods were there, and the Divine Mother came to him, but then she turned like she spoke to him, and she turned and she pointed to all of the gods and see all of this this is just this is just an impression. And it's like there was something real that finally cracked through and he realized, like I need to stop taking drugs. I need to dual work. This is

just an experience, and that's what I see. This guy I met, he was a nice guy, but he was normal. He didn't have any attainment. He wasn't a master. There were no cities there. There was no extraordinary knowledge. And when I say extra ordinary knowledge, look, he had weird experiences. He had cool psychedelic experiences that were crystallized in his memory. But he wasn't an unusual person beyond that. And it's like for him something finally cracked and broken. It's like, oh,

I need to actually find the work. And you know, he he's doing one. He got some Golden Dawn stuff and he's doing some things. But it's like, that's what I That's what I see most of the time is people take them and the megalomania test. They get completely they completely fumble and stumble, and it's like I just solved my ego. That's it done, guys, LSD. Once I'm done one and done, baby.

do harm. I realized that this isn't happening like all the time everywhere with everyone uses psychedelics, but it does. It does happen. Like one of my good friends, you know, was given by this total moron, like a teeny vial of liquid LSD or whatever, and he was just like

take the rest of it. And you know, the other the person who took it was just being too like oh, you know, I want to be one of the cool kids kind of thing, the whole thing, and like, I mean lost, you know, for the next eight hours, Like we had him in the car with ac on him, like trying to get him.

So you'll get these kind of like micro gurus with with big egos and really they're just drug dealers who happen to have psychedelics and they kind of you know, they have a couple of they have like some bro science facts related to the psychedelics on their shoulder and they're around some gullible people and then you know people are just damn imaging, you know, damaging their lives, and

that's when it's really sad. So it's like whereas when you find you know, some North American tribes sharing like yopon tea ceremonies or smoking the tobacco pipe and stuff in ceremony, it is all the sort of traditional. It has these parameters about it. It's there's that layer of reverence there, your your ancestors did it too, and it is intent Like the intentions are pretty clear as to

what's going on. Right when when someone in the Lakota tribe or differ various different tribes in North America set out to do their vigils or their rites of passage, for instance, you know they would go out with the shaman uh and the shaman would sort of say, all right, look here here's what you do. You've you've got to fast for three days. We've dug this pit in the

mountain side. You know, you go into the pit and like that's where you're gonna You're gonna sit in this pit for X number of days and wait there until the spirits come to you.

brought so many people through this kind of thing. Or you could be in this pit similar to like Tamarcus in Greece who visited the cave of Triphonius. Right, he didn't drink a psychedelic according to Plutarch before having his near death experience. Right, neither did these these youths in the North American tribes who go up the mountain side and they wait in these caves or pits or something,

and usually they they're they're making a sacrifice. Right when you're fasting, you're sacrificing something, right, You're they're they're making this sacrifice, and there's there's this intention there and you have to go through the kind of period of darkness and then something can come through, you know. But these are totally not reliant on any any you know, material medium.

And that's that's the idea. It is that our language about natural visionary experiences just needs to get upgraded, and it won't get upgraded also if everyone's too caddy about their experiences or can't have a conversation about their experiences, like you don't need to give us the whole package, but we need to at least be able to communicate on some level like hey, yeah, I know what you're talking about. That happened to me too in meditation. Stuff like that. We need to we need to bring this

out of like some you know, like the alchemists. You know, they're obscuring their language so much that no one knows what's going on anymore, like that kind of phase. I think, you know, it's like it has its place here or there.

But in order to bring this stuff to the practical level, we have to talk about it openly, and we have to focus on these natural visionary experiences that underlie I think the origins of religious belief in the first place are actually those experiences, and they don't require psychedelics, okay, but sure if someone came across a DMT pipe loaded with DMT in the ancient world and they smoked it, would they come out of that with like some wild beliefs,

Like yeah, definitely right. But I think we're dealing with something more natural here. And you know, on that note, last little thing here, It's like when when asked these Amazonian shamans, did you how did you find ayahuasca? You know, they said the plants told us. The plants told us so.

But even the guys deep in the research there, they want to appeal to the skeptics and say, well, they could work this out over ten thousand experiments combining this plant in that plant, And I'm like, guys, they told you what happened. They already they already told you how it happened. And so we're always looking for this this sort of more rational kind of way around these things. But speaking to a plant or something it just sounds,

oh my god, it's so fantastic. But that kind of clues you into how far away we are from the actual mindset of the people that were discovering the psychedelics that now we cherish. They had a totally different ontology. You know that they could telepathically communicate with plants and this and that. So we've lost we like have erased all of that context and all of that earning and that what you know, what people had to do to

deserve these things, We've erased that. And you know, so that's why we have to bring it in this discussion. And it's sort of valuable to flesh flesh all of this out.

And it's interesting that psychedelics and narcotics can be confusing, and I think when one has gone through a lot of confusion and overcoming confusion, even in a sober sense, I think confusion is what development tastes like if you will, And so I think it is an example of this preparation or initiation benefit that can help us deal with these things that might bring people into this spiritual euphoria where everything is a sign if you will or something

akin to that, and not grounded as they proceed. So I just wanted to add that the confusion I think is a helpful thing in development.

your experiences and how you relate to them. So, I mean, you could change your perception looking at a color, you know, you could change your perception by having certain herbs burning. The whole idea that you need strong psychoactive substances. The change your perception is actually completely off of the mark that you would want to you know, perpetuate with attaining the ability to witness this stuff.

So yeah, I mean just without the drugs.

their what their function are. You know, Strasman has at least somewhat indicated that that it plays a role in our in our dreams. But you know, then again we're not really sure, but but you have things like gigantism or whatnot, which is a sort of I believe the thyroid produces an excess level of growth hormone and literally turns people into giants, right, So this is a kind of chemical imbalance in the body that has these drastic, you know, these drastic kind of effects. So we just

we don't know enough about about those those processes. But it's like we know, we know that holotropic breathing produces more nitric oxide in the brain, Okay, and that's why the experiences that people have doing that practice is similar to when they just suck down a nitrous oxide balloon. But you don't need the balloons. You can you can do this in a in a different in a different

way that is healthier, right, and it requires efforts. So there is a different kind of catharsis at the end of that journey than just sort of just sort of taking something right. So it's like, the psychedelics are not going away, if anything, I think, you know, we're probably gonna see revivals on a number of different levels of

you know, different kind of psychedelics. So it's it's worth trying to establish as as psychedelics continue to influence culture in general and and no doubt influence people's perspective on

spirituality and whatnot. Getting it back into this this sense of reverence and this sense of like, like if you wanted to create a a new mystery ritual based around kind of a psychedelic at the end of that, like that, there's validity there, there's something good there if it's if the parameters are right, the people involved are like decent and everything else, and it's not it's not too you know, crazy, Like there's there's value. There's value there, but it's of

course it's not. It's not the only thing that exists. And that's you know, we're being a dead dead horse here by saying this over and over, but we're gonna have to continue to say it over and or over and sort of flesh out the argument and develop the different the different points here because the debate is going to ramp up.

what that ship, where that stuff was coming from. And people just being studied, you have no idea, you know, So like I do believe that maybe certain places can't get infiltrated by drugs for studies. Like who's to say this isn't just another another one.

The religious is the top one, is the first one, the basic one. Someone who's religious doesn't necessarily care about having a spiritual experience. You know, the Christian who goes to church. He still believes there's something beyond the veil and he draws ethics from it, but he's just religious. He goes to church on the weekend. Someone who's spiritual is a little bit deeper. They want to experience what's

beyond the veil. But they may not never change in their life, like they may not be necessarily interested in transformation of their self, like they may not want, you know, they just want to kind of live life, but also being among the spirits kind of thing. Whereas a mystic is someone who has real experience from beyond the veil, and they've actually been transformed by it. The only problem is is a true mystic mystics, they don't choose to be mystics. It's the thing beyond the veil reaches down

and grabs them and pulls them upwards. And the counter that is on that level. There's something like along the side of that, and that is someone who wants that, they want transformation and they do something to initiate that process. And the thing is in this class, the experience, the perception is an effect. It's not a cause. The cause

is you apply something. So it's like in the East you do crea yoga, you do this Hamsar exercise where you visualize, you know, energy coming up the spine and into the forehead and you do this continuously and then sometimes they say you experience light if you just take a drug and you experience light in your forehead. So

what that's an effect? You didn't do the cause. The whole point is is you saturate the spine with this energy and then that has an effect and then that changes you and then certain things in your life may change or you as a person, like continuously moving your energies inwards, like you know, can change certain qualities psychologically permanently in you. It's like you do the cause and you get these effects, these spiritual things or I saw this spirit or I saw these lights. They are effects.

They're not important at all, but also they are important in the sense of you've done the practice correctly, and it's a litmus test that you've done the practice correctly. You don't want to be doing a practice wrong for like twenty years and then it's like I've been doing it wrong, you know all this time kind of thing. If you apply a cause, it should have an effect. But if you're just taking a drug and having any experience,

that's just an effect without anything. I like to say, it's like you know, like going to the gym and working out and changing your body. But you know the concept of like you know, an exoskeleton, like they're talking

about it now. It's like, well, you get like kind of a robot suit over yourself and like they kind of have military exo suits now where it's like, you know, you have the robot moves kind of for your you can lift something extra large if you have like this kind of robot kind of exoskeleton on your arm and

like that kind of thing. It's like it's like taking a drug for spirituality is like that is you're putting something on and it's like it's giving you this huge effects and then you can lift like three hundred, four hundred, five hundred pounds. But then once you take the exo skeleton off, you're just back to a normal skinny dude. You're back to a normal human. And that's the thing. Yeah,

that's the thing exactly. It's the difference between Iron Man and four What do you want to be a billionaire playboy? And then what are you without the suit? Or are you Captain America? Are you actually though, like just generating like lightning out of yourself or generating strength and virtue out of yourself via the internal It's like, what do you want to be? And so it's kind of like

there's no I see it, there's no real development. And people always kind of that, it's like, and they always counter that by saying, ah, but it changed me from that, and it's like no, no, no, you're mistaken. You're falling into the healing versus regeneration thing again. Broken people becoming normal is not initiation someone who's already kind of got it together going into something even greater, going beyond human.

That's what we're interesting, the ladder of being you know, vegetable, animal, human, and then something potentially beyond. We want to go beyond. We don't just want to be a human with an odd experience. It's calls and effects, permanence change, not temporary experience.

human testing. So it's just something to be aware of and stay cautious of.

into your head. Sometimes it's like, I'm spiritual, and then if something goes wrong, well I'm spiritual. It has to be someone else. It can't be me. I've done the work. And if it's just if you're just doing drugs all the time, and then you can kind of like if you've never done anything, you haven't really gotten anywhere. There can be a kind of a copium for that. So they go into the literature, they do all this study, they get all this skin in the game because it's

a kind of copium. No, no, no, it is good. I've been working this entire time. And then of course there's the people behind them going yes, yes, tell the others, tell the others, and it's all this that's where it becomes conspiratorial. I can see that. I can see that.

but you know, we don't, we can't do that. But yeah, so it's it's like I think it can lead a lot of sort of you know, dogmatic and and kind of sort of rigorously rigid people. It can it can produce a shift in belief, which can can be powerful.

But those shifts they don't necessarily like you can't keep pressing the shift belief button, you know, so if something results in that shift, that shift of belief, like, Okay, now I believe in spirits because I smoke d MT and I encountered things that I can't explain, and they were communicating with me and it was so bizarre. It's like, all right, I'll like, I think that's that's a sort of a positive thing if you if you can if that works in a positive way in your reality, that

now you believe in spirits. Now you sort of understand boom, there's a there's a good positive benefit from from psychedelic uses that I honestly want to kind of you know, safe and everything else advocate for for sure. That's that's where I think it has its place, not in this sort of chaotic you know, everything's recreational, nothing intention behind it. We're just doing this for euphoria. So it makes our sex better and our dancing better and this and that.

People want to ride that train until they're basically forty and they've lost the purpose in life, and like you know, now now they don't look as good anymore, they don't feel as good. What have I been doing? You know, I've been frying my brain on psychedelics. And it's like, you know, when I was younger and a little bit more championing the psychedelics and didn't have enough experiences myself,

I was a little more gung ho about it. But then when you have like a terrible trip and are a couple of these, right, Like you know salvia they used to sell and they might still do sell salvia like gas stations. Right, if you smoke salvia, you will be confronted with the most bizarre hallucinations you could You don't ever want to imagine. It is nightmarish. What can happen? Right, I don't know, don't do it. It's not like it's

not great, you know. I mean Terrence mckinna, he describes a certain way to do it where you know it's different. But I mean I saw I saw like reality unzip and in one instance, there was like fifty different boxes of myself that I saw stumbling and it was like a hologram of me just stumbling in a yard. And I came back to reality, hitting myself in the face, trying to wake up out of it. You know. So it's like, I mean, it can just what is It's like, I don't know what to take from that other than

you know, don't do that anymore. And hallucinations are possible, right, So it's like, uh, yeah, there's there's only so much we can extract from it. Now with the dmt X research, I think those guys are going to they're going to get into the territory territory with psychedelics, and this is the IV drip of the DMT. They might get into a territory that is scientifically useful. And this is let

me qualify that. It's like if they can encounter an intoity in that space and say, here's a mathematical problem and the entity solves it and and they bring it back or whatever, that's kind of what they're trying to do. They're trying to let the entity do something that the person having the experience cannot do so that they bring it back as like experiential proof of the objective existence of of this entity. That's that's the fascinating research that

this stuff can, you know, get into. And I'm I'm all for that, you know. Yeah, So I think it's it's gonna it's gonna get interesting. So it's worth it's worth trying to figure out, you know, where we at in this, in this whole argument, and what are the points for and against this stuff. So I think I think we've done done some good introductory work on that here.

happening there. So these things aren't regulated, but that doesn't mean that they're safe, And a lot of people miss that sort of distinction because they think that, you know, chemicals that are unregulated means they're safe, but that's that's not true at all. It's just, you know, you got to understand that the dose makes the poison. And a lot of times people don't do that because they're used

to having warning labels all over everything. And I don't think that if they legalized psychedelics that it would come with a warning label that says could cause extended adolescence. You know, that ego death that you're experiencing might just be you thinking you're a child forever. So how is that useful?

there with me and it's going to be a great time. Also, you know, I love I love being the people to be talking about this stuff instead of, you know, leaving it up to some of the more duplicitous members of society trying to fear monger about it, which is not what you need in cases like this, because I think there's that instant sort of like revulsion against the fear mongers that then brings people into it and doing things that are unsafe because you know, they were told not

to do it. So I think these are good discussions to have, and I think people should really consider these things from a wider perspective.

other language. So it's like it's like a huge trove of her medica that that have they they haven't been touched. No one is touching them, I mean the best. Like the the book the Arabic Hermes von Bladel's work was published in like I think the late two thousands and whatnot. And Walter Scott published you know, one of the larger Arabic Hermetica's and like volume four of a of a book that you know it's super hard to get now,

uh and then her Medica to Litwa's version. There's only a couple of little, you know, references there, so it should be a fascinating and uh long long essays. So trudging through that material, now, yes, that is awesome.