You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
What help? Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode, I got my man, Jenda Ninja with me and we got a new guest on, Alexander Moore, the Hex Doctor. But before we introduce Alexander, we got Jenda Ninja, who's gonna remind you where where you can find all his amazing work and in case you haven't heard about him yet, listen to where he's going to tell you to go check out his stuff.
Thanks boss, mister ninety three, appreciate it. As always, I always love coming on the show. And thanks to alex of course, because he and I recorded a very long form, very discursive, maybe a little fiery, but very interesting, very interesting episode that I'm really looking forward to. I had recently. I had Paul Frederick on from the Demonosofti podcast, as well as Gregory Peters, who just wrote the new a
On Contra. So obviously if you followed me, you know that I'm interested in the a on of Mott workings, but I don't use that framework. But anyways, I just dropped an episode today on the Kabbala of Cool World,
the nineteen ninety four film. So I've done a long form five part series on Ralph Bokshie and sort of the speculative kabala of the entire thing with my friend Eric who's also a podcaster, and so that's been really cool, and so that dropped if people are interested, and you can find me at twycm Reborn on Twitter, x wuko
and g Reborn. Of course Threshold Saints, Spotify, Apple, anywhere you get your podcasts at Threshold Saints on x Twitter as well as ig and of course our Metamagic show, which is speculative narcissism every Friday night Friday Night and not sing Mass as we call it, although sometimes we
do series as well. But you can check us out at the True Gray Lodge dot com which is t r ve gray Lodge dot com, as well as our YouTube channel, which I ask everyone to like and subscribe, and uh pretty much that's what that's what we're up to, and you can check out all our other co hosts. Matt has joined the panel permit like full time now and so I think it's great. I think like check out Matt Murra, checkout Joshua the Branch, and check out
Sollar exile and Mike of course. So yeah, this is the five of Us and can we we do a little rock and roll?
Yeah, no, definitely. I definitely suggested go take out those spaces, very very well done. Good stuff too. And uh finally, Alexander, sir, please, uh first time on the show. Let everybody know where they can find your stuff and uh give maybe give them a little bit of an idea of like what your show is about and what you do.
Oh yeah, so you find me on practical ocult dot com. I'm one half of it. My business partner Allison. She makes the solemonic panicles, the pgm amulets, all that stuff which you can purchase if you so choose. I do the divination spell work for higher pedagogy, personal student instruction, and pre recording courses of all sorts. If you want to find me on Instagram, I'm at the hex Doctor. I often say the Practical Occult. If you read anything
I write there is very above board. The hex Doctor is Practical Occult after Dark where I got, I get unhinged, I got memes, I got dreams. You know, maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. If you don't that's Ah, that's your problem on mine, because you know I'm I'm I'm here to be I'm here to be dedicated. I'm gonna be starting a sub staxtuone which is going to be even more unhinged. The deeper you go, the weirder it's going to get. Uh like that in general, man, Like,
that's it's my thing. My thing is magic that works and getting better at it sounds good.
I like the way that sounds all right. Uh So, I mean regular question that always seems to be yes to me whenever I go on a new show, So I might as well just go with the same thing. What was it that I guess got you to even get into the occult or so entertaining that stuff?
My dad does it? Yeah, Like my father's a solemnonic magician and a folk magician. You know. When I was thirteen because when things growing up, I always knew that magic was real because he proved it. That was the biggest thing. He proved it to me. He was like, I don't want you to think that this is fake. I don't want you to think of them making shit up. And he would be like, tell me to do something, what do you want and he would do it and
it would always happen. He'd be like, tell me what you need to know, and he could know things that he shouldn't be able to know. He was able to do all this shit. And he was like, when you're thirteen, you get to start too. And I'll tell you, man, between ages twelve and thirteen, I was chomping at the fucking bit, you know what I mean.
I was.
I was doing everything I could to get there. And again, you know, looking back, having the live wire of like real magic in my hands as a hormonal teenager, probably not the uh, probably not the best thing for like, you know, living a normal, less unhinged life. But he didn't really give a shit and that's how I got started. And from there I met teachers that either knew him or I would do magic to meet other teachers, you know,
ask spirits to bring me mentors and things. And it's been a lifelong obsession for twenty four years now.
Nice. Oh wow, that's a long time. Actually, yeah, some amount of time, dude. Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting to hit me with the folk magic. I mean, you mentioned that earlier too. What would you consider for the listeners who mean not actually, because I don't think I've really ever had anybody on for folk magic. What would be your, I guess definition of folk magic for people?
So it's it's defined very differently, honestly, just set at the risk of being a little bit spicy. Depending on how political a person is, you're going to get a different answer you're gonna get, you know. And again it's from from from my perspective. When I say folk magic, what I mean is things like candle magic, make poppets, making charm bags, doing things like that, But it goes
a little deeper than that in a more operative, animistic fashion. Now, the biggest thing is regionally in the United States, you're gonna have different kinds of folk magic. So most people when they hear about like folk magic, the thing about who do now? Who do? Suffers from not a lie but an academic distortion. So Harry Hyatt wrote his Higatt material and that became the only written idea for a long time on who do So people associated with Delta
regional who do now? If you study who do for example in Macon, Georgia, which I did, and in various parts of Appalachia, you'll see entirely different systems. There's a book called American Shamans by a guy called Jake Richards who interviews in the seventies a bunch of practitioners of conjure folk magic who do work. It's all different words
for the same thing. People hate me for saying that, but it is, and you will see a lot more focused on out of body experiences, psychic development, speaking to the spirits within things as opposed to simply I'm going to light a candle. Now, don't get me wrong. A good folk magician, you don't want them burning a candle
on you because they can hurt you. The biggest thing that I would say about folk magic that people lose out on is the depth of it, and that can be found the example of putting live things in somebody, The idea of producing physical snakes, worms, parasites in a person that they vomit up using only magic.
I have heard of it.
This is a thing that has been documented in the US newspapers forever. In fact, some of our earliest poisoning laws are as a result of slaves making human figures of somebody and praying over them, because a spiritual poison was considered and ought to still be considered as genuine as a physical one. Now, this also dovetails in the most cases into like solomonic magic, because a lot of people will use the Greater Key of Solomon as a
broad framing right structure for their folk magic. So the enchantment you do before you summon or before you consecrate the pentacles, and the stuff you do directly after, if you bookend your folk magic with that, it boosts its power, right because you're calling on several different forces to bring it in. If you add folks, if you add planetary hours to your folk magic even more right, it all scales up all towards the purpose of once again your shit working.
You. Uh No, I have like a few questions here when it comes to folk magic. Would you also consider that almost something that's like very uh, it's very much in like the area that you're from.
Almost, Yeah, I mean it could be, so I would argue that it once was more now than it is because the area that we're from is the fucking Internet, right, like like like yeah, if you find like an old head in the game, they'll tell you that you should go and learn the bioregion where you live or where you're from, go learn what the herbs do and stuff, and you should. That's great to do, right, But in reality, and this is where I get a lot of people kind of fucked up. Is like this more than just
the roots and herbs. Ideas can be can promises can be conjured. For example, everyone knows if they get a piece of your hair, some of your blood, some of your skin, they can work you. But if you make a promise, you gave them part of yourself. If you send a nude, you gave them part of yourself.
Right.
If someone gets their hands on your natal chart, they got they got you, they got the moment you were born. They can conjure you. They can work you, to quote an old teacher of mine, pick you up, put you down, turn you all the way around, and they can. Right. But the thing is, you're from the Internet. I remember being a kid and thinking to myself, you know, oh, well shit, you know, I can't get a hold of someone's picture. But then MySpace happened, and I remember a
teacher might at the time. I told her about it, and she went, they're putting their pictures out there, They're putting their parents' names, their birthdays, everything I can get anybody. Now you print out that shit, because again, it's one of like even like even if you look at like PGM sorcery, it's a lot of like so and so, who's so and so bore? Right, So, let's say you go on your LinkedIn or something. Let's say let's say you want to get a job, right, because it all
has to work right. And see, when you get a job, you find to hire manager of the company. You got their picture on LinkedIn. Maybe you could find their Facebook or whatever out of that. Maybe you can't, but if you look deep enough, you can find shit about their family. So you're like, all right, hiring manager Joe Smith, who Martha Smith bore born on this day whatever, You're going to hire me? And then if you want to scale it up into solemonic, you get yourself the third pinnacle
of the sun. You print that motherfucker out in the day of the day and hour of the sun. You put the picture of the person on the thing. You conjure it correctly. You know the name of the father son, holy ghost. I make you Joe Smith. Whatever happens to you is this thing, and then you light some candles around it. You use like the first pinnacle of the sun, or no, I'm sorry, the third pinnacle, the son, the control plentacle with the stave things and each of those
angels and a cardinal point. You call all of them all, you call all of them in a certain order, and you're like, help me work this motherfucker, make me shine bright in this guy's eyes, and then boom, you got the job. Even if it's over zoom, even if it's over a resume doesn't or even if it's over a hiring thing doesn't matter. You got them. So from a distance, especially because again, where are we from. We're from the Internet. That's the world. Now you can work anybody.
Damn, that was impressive.
Can I say a couple Can I say a couple of bars? Nick? I just want to say that was a great point Alex about that we are from the Internet, and the Internet is the carnal ground. So the Internet is a great place to do magic on people. As well as you should guard your birthday. I know nobody, nobody likes that advice, but you really should guard your birthday and your logna, particularly which is your birth time.
People underestimate how potent that is, but that's a very potent idea tontra as well, that you can actually take someone shock to someone's power through their logna.
Yeah. Yeah, and in conjure it's called stealing someone's stars. It's the same thing. Yeah, I mean it's like it's you could just do it right, like they're like or stealing someone's luck, sealing someone's nature, right, their personal power. I mean, it's it's it's a it's a it's a dirty game. You know. If you go down to the ground level, people get people get aggressive.
I'll make sure to have a funck BD if we got to give her all my information.
I'm just saying it's but you can also protect it, right, you can. You can. You can poison shit like that, right, Like let's say you got a social media presence, you got ops, right, because we all do. What you do is you make a you make a fake candle spell that looks like something but in reality at something else, Like you make a look at prosperity spell, but you
put like the fourth Pinnacle of Saturn underneath it. You call those spirits and you're like, any motherfucker prints this out, tapes it to a candle, get them like poison their lives.
That's how you make like a honey trap, right, And you know, I mean again, you know, like I always tell my students, game is game, right, and I'm a player, you know what I mean, Like it's you've got to you got to understand that the world is a hairier place than it was, say, ten years ago, as a result of this in the first world anyway.
Oh yeah, all right, well, uh, thank you for the thing with the folk magic. I appreciate you. I thought it was well well said.
Thank you, thanks man.
Yeah, thanks. I guess like the solomonic magic, I mean for the people who that's something I have not really covered too much. I had somebody on for the Goetia and it was like they were kind of like showing like their new take on I guess. And you know, for me it was interesting, it made sense, but I mean it's I have to actually be practical with it
and use it to see what's going on. You know, if you don't mind, could you like maybe get into like a little bit of explaining like what solomonic magic would be for the listeners?
Yeah, sure, I mean all right, so some people are going to be a little bit more precious about it in religious terms. A lot of solomonic magicians become or are started as fairly religious people, and they believe that it's like the holdover of the pre sood of malpiece deck or whatever. For me, it's a method of spiritual technology that either summons peaceably celestial or terrestrial spirits or forcibly compels cathonic or infernal spirits to do what you
need them to do. You summon an angel, maybe they'll do what you want, maybe they won't. They can say no, or they can say yes and give you the thing that they think you need. You sum in a planetary spirit, it's going to be a little more order of the petition. You sum in an elemental same thing you some in a demon. You need to kind of beat on it a little bit and then bind it. They respect force, they respect pain. I'm a pretty traditionalist when it comes
to solomonic magic. I do it the way it's written in the book. With certain exceptions. I will say, you can do certain energy cultivations and things to supersede the fasting to open your spiritual senses in a different way. But if you're going to do it the full way, do the fast like it says, you get the kit as best you can. Not everybody has the means to get the whole kit. That is what it is that
we have plenty of textual example. Stephen Skinner, for example, produces a shit ton of examples of the fact that there are a lot of people who didn't throughout history. There was an example of the excellent Book of Visions by Alexander Cummins that gives an example of two magicians asking spirits, what is the least that I need and what is the most that I could have to get this done? So you keep that in mind too. You don't need to be perfect. You just need to be smart.
The protective philactories that you make, the protect the family that you ought to make those as best you can because it can be dangerous. But in general, you do the thing you say the words for. You know, if it's the first time summoning that specific spirit, you might be conjuring for three to four hours for it to
show up. In some cases, you've got to really put your you know, put you put your ass into it, you know what I mean, because especially because I mean you want to see it ideally, you want to you want to see it Now this is where people get kind of fucked up. If you read your grip up, you'll understand that the visionary capacity of a human being is, in the Renaissance worldview, as real as your physical site. Okay, now, does that mean you can't physically see these spirits? Sometimes
you can. Sometimes they're full HD right in front of you. Sometimes they're not. The point is less to see them and more to get them to do ship for you. All right, So it's it's it's the old get laid, get paid, get even, right, like that's the name of the game. Sometimes because this is what you're here for, You're not necessarily and this this is this, This pisses a lot of demon all that are types off, but like, you're not here for spiritual evolution talking to these things. There.
There's plenty of spirits that can get you there, plenty of spirits and plenty of just even just being adjacent to this for long enough time, I will give you spiritual experiences that are very valid. In my opinion, people disagree with me. Demons aren't for that. They're not your friends. Even the ones that are listed is more peaceable, less harmful, and they are indeed more peaceable and less harmful. They're not.
They're not.
They're not there to like shepherd you into grace and glory. They're not there to shepherd you in some true dark gnosis that some people will fuck with. They're they're gonna fuck with you. Yeah. Yeah, read your Agrippa Hamburglar one, two three. You know you'll be one of the five people who ever fucking did Everyone loves buy the I got the new Purdue edition based edition by the way. Oh my god, it's great. You read it. Nah, No, I'm gonna get to it. I'm gonna get to it.
But you know, how old is the Purdue edition?
Oh, it's it's the more it's the more recent when Eric Produce spent like a billioneres making and it's good. I'm wondering maybe it's like maybe five or six years old.
I believe. I mean, the one that I have is even.
The original Tyson addition that people loved when I was growing up. You know, read the Ship. You don't need to read it all at once, obviously, but like, you know, make it a point, you know, spend twenty minutes a day reading.
The Bastrooms so much in that book it is you.
Will, but it will teach you a lot about the metaphysics involved in the Western Grimwore tradition specifically. And he talks about shit that like little gems, right, Like he talks about two headed possession, for example in his chapter on frenzy and no one wants and it's one of those things that you bring that up and people are like, what he does that. I'm like, you didn't read that shit, you know what I mean? But no, So like that's the thing. Goaeisha is about getting shit done, and it's
all really about enhancing you. Right, So if you look at like broader Grimwore traditions, like in the Lmegatin which includes the Gaisia, you also have something. You also have things like the Almadel which have also done you know, some angels of various seasons they give you cool shit, They enhance your life. But if you do it spring all the way through winter, they kind of write the ship of your life. Like those can give you spiritual
guidance as well as physical boons. Right, If that's what you want, then absolutely do that when it's easier in so many ways. But if you want again to get shit done and keeping in mind and I've said this on a couple of podcasts, a couple of interviews. People will often ask me, you know, why would you beat the shit out of these demons? Why would you bind them? Not only five people? I counted three.
Well, it's got a good point, the three of us here right.
Now, but truly one and the other two I don't know.
Where that is.
I really love a Grippa. I've said this many times. I've said this many times, but I just want to interrupt you really quickly. I'm sorry, Nick, because you're saying something really interesting, and I actually agree. I think that you and I meet a lot in the middle on this. Actually is that like the goet expirits are not worshiped, like they're not meant to be worshiped. I'm one hundred percent with you, but I think a lot of leftime health people leave that believe that they are.
So dalture Man, sure, kind of right, absolutely, But I just wanted to ask you about this thing that David Rankin talks about.
David Rankin coming on Yeah, Nick's show and my show Pretty single, So he talks about blinds, how Grippa put in blinds, how there are blinds and basically the entire gramoric tradition all the way up to contemporary Western text especially, But this is also a thing in Tontra. We don't call them blinds, but you know, scandalons, scambos, klipa's, whatever you want to call them, sort of like traps that a magician puts in, whether it's a pronunciation issue in
correct Hebrew, maybe incorrect correspondence. And Carle even said he did this himself, he would in seven seven seven, So you know, it's I want to know how you deal with those things, how you recognize them as much as you want to tell, and then how to rectify them.
So I actually think they are far viewer of them then people realize. I think that oftentimes people will say that as an excuse not to do the work. I think that people will say, like, oh, they didn't actually mean bat's blood for this ink. Yeah, they did go kill a bat. It's not hard, you know, or like.
I disagree with you there, because I know in Tantra there are inner, outer secret layers. So immediately because of Sambodia Gaia twilight language, we would know that that's incorrect sort of presentation, and there is a way to read Western wisdom text with a kind of twilight language, which is not an uncommon thing. I mean, Gerjeff talks about it, Ospensky talks about this.
Sure, Sure, So I would argue that a lot of the grim Wore tradition is separate from the Wisdom tradition. I would argue that a lot of these things are manuals that are meant to be done for practical purposes, for those results. For example, using the bat's blood thing, I killed a bat, used part of its blood to make an ink. The ink is more magically potent as a result. Well, this is actually where we tie it, in my opinion, to the folk magic behind it, where
you awaken those spirits. I think that there are some things in the Western tradition that do have blinds. But I think that a lot of people will make excuses for their lack of extraordinary results and extraordinary effort and hide behind that sort of knowledge or that sort of claim rather that there are these blinds for these things, because frankly, I think people are lazy. I think people don't put the work in, and they don't even halfway
believe that magic is really magic. That's a big thing that in my career, I've been trying to hammer fist as hard as possible. Magic is actually magic. If you make excuses that your magic isn't actually magic, that's why your results are subpar. You should be able to do these things with enough effort. Is it easy? No, absolutely not, But it's certainly perhaps easier to assume that a thing is a blind. Again, this is a thing that I
disagree with a lot of people on. I think there are some, but not as many as people think.
I could see that. My issue with a lot of people's work is that I don't think it will be understood unless people cross the abyss. So that's the whole problem for people that have you know, if somebody is gross the abyss and then they put out work, I don't think you'll understand it unless you've had that experience, So that I could see people considering maybe a blind. But I do think especially Crowley's work, I don't think you'll understand a little it unless you have that experience.
That's just my opinion. So I don't know if that's a blind, but it's still like you're not gonna understand the work because you're not having their experience and.
There's certainly something to that like. So the reason why I use, for example, the almadel is a counterpoint example. I love that you brought that up to right. So you do the almadeal. It's very simple to do. It's very easy. It doesn't require even a fraction of the effort. And you'll be visited by these angels, whether you see them directly or you're visited in dreams, or you're visiting just in life circumstances across the calendar year from spring all the way to the end of winter, and they
will guide your life. They will build you a better life, and you will be brought spiritual discernment, greater wisdom, greater spirit, sight and senses. You know, some people I know have been brought into contact with patron spirits. You know, I hesitate to attach it to the concert of the Holy Guardian Angel, but it's something similar enough I suppose that some people have had. I mean, it brings you where you need to be, in my opinion, especially things like Goetia.
That is a that is an instruction manual to get shit done in life. And that's why it can work separate, it works suboptimally separated from the greater key of Solomon. But the fact that it works by itself, and there are people who have built entire lives, great lives, like abundant, crazy, abundant lives based off of this shows me that the technology, which is my primary focus in all of this, the spiritual technology, works, and it works well, and it delivers
ninety five percent of what it promises. I have not made. I have not personally been able to use that magic to make a thing levitate, although I have tried. I have not been able to personally use that magic to make something teleport, although I have tried, but I have achieved remarkable don't even bother talking about it because it's going to believe you unless they wear their level shit with that specific stuff as well.
Do you think I don't know what your other stuff is next? And I'm not asking you to explain it, this next level stuff, but you think you know you mentioned like levitate or move something. Do you think if you actually if that actually happened, do you think, like when it really happens, I might actually freaky the fuck out because like, like that's real, real, That's not a faith anymore now, it's a knowing. No.
So this is exactly why I bring up that, Like my old man proved it to me, there is magic that can do those things.
Oh no, I believe it. I know, I totally believe.
The thing is, it's one of those things like when you see it, you only want more of it. Like I say that, I I can't make a demon, for example, teleport something, but I have seen, for example, people by locate and then leave an item behind that was not previously there. So there are definitely things that can do. I'm just saying that is not what I've pushed this
system to be able to do. But the point is, even if you look at like what these things do, Yeah, they can make you smarter, and they can make you learn things faster, and they can give you allegedly true answers to divinity. That is the thing I actually do doubt because every spirit has an agenda. You know, They're all going to have their reasons for telling you things. And these things are clever. So if you ask them
like how is the world created? Or like you know which God is the real one or which one is whatever, You're going to get something that it is going to try to talk you into things. That's why I was very fortunate that I got good advice early on about I'm in a demon. You should give it a one and done job, like you should give it one thing to do that has a defined end, and then just on its way. Some of it again if you need it.
You don't want to have it oversee your money or your love life or your career in a long term way, because again, those things don't like you. They will try to get over on you.
You can always deal with it as like a servitor, where it's very specific, this is your job and that's it.
No exactly, and again servitor tech is wonderful. The reason why people would go to say a demon is because, frankly, because they're so close to the terrestrial world in terms of the orders of manifestation, they can get things done really fast. You know. I give an example a lot of like I had a friend who had pancreatic cancer years ago, and he was going to die, straight up going to die, and I was like, Nope, I'm not going to let that happen. You smon a specific demon.
You beat on it for hours and you're like, he will not die, and he goes in for imaging. It's gone absolutely gone. That's why you do it. That's why you call them because they can be produced. They can be forced to give you miracles that you may need. That in my case, every other option I exhausted failed. I try to do every other healing technique. I knew every other magic technique. I knew none of it worked,
none of it even touched it at the time. I'm better now than I was those years ago, so perhaps I could. I I don't know. I don't want to have to risk that though. I don't want any of my friends getting cancer again. But like I couldn't do it, that did it, So you know, sometimes you do what you need to.
Do until I kind of get off of where we are. I mean, it just it was pretty impressive and intense. Shit, there was other stuff I did want to ask to get into too. Multiple questions. One real quick. I'm assuming you probably saw it. I don't want to. This isn't like a major question. There's more important things. But what's your opinion on that show, that movie at Dark Soul? I'm assuming you're probacing that right.
Oh, okay, it was trash.
I hated it.
It was goofy, And then you know, I don't know. There's some occult cinema I love, like early hammer horror stuff, big fan. You know, a lot of anime based a cult cinema, Big fan. But like, No, A Dark Song was was not was not my favorite thing. It wasn't correct to the abermellin operation and it was it was
just stylized and goofy and realistically. The one thing that was accurate was the skeevie like magician who was trying to utilize the ritual that she was having him do with her for his own Like that's like I've met that dude in a thousand different faces, right, Like, like that dude is real. He's out there listening right now.
The guy's checking off like that was even part of the ritual? Was it?
But you know what, he was in there doing it. But that's the thing man like that. I was never a particular fan of that film.
And then I just want to say, just in defense of that film, I just want to say that I agree with the critique. However, a lot of modern magicians, like there's like all these young guys that run like these magical training centers all over America. I guess that's the thing I know a few of them on Twitter, and I'm mutuals with some of them. Anyways, they do this like very similar to what is depicted. Like they're kind of training regime and their training course is much
more similar to what is picted. I'm not saying it's textually accurate. I'm just saying it looks like something that is done in a contemporary setting.
Now, I mean maybe, and you know, I'm sure that's out there, Mike, I would be curious to see how well it worked, because again.
I don't know.
I cannot speak to efficacy in anything. I'm not condoning or telling people to buy those courses. I am just saying that I know people who do it like that.
No, sure, and I'm certain, I mean there are people out there who do all manner of things, good, bad, and indifferent. I don't know. I feel as though to how to put this U being a complete dickhead, I feel as though one needs to really vet their in person teachers, especially I said, as someone who makes a giant portion of his living teaching magic. Right, It's all about what does it give you versus what do you
have to give of yourself in return? You know, because you have to think about, like what you want out of this, if your goal, and frankly, if your life, if your life is not good, like your life is shit,
it's not where you want it to be. You should be working on operative sorcery to get it there before you work on anything in some deep mystical I'm going to go to you know, mystic vision camp for three months in the Poconos or whatever the fuck, Like, you know, you gotta you got, you got to make your choices in the right order, I would say, because if you have a good life and you have operative sorcery that works, your discernments can be better because your scarcity is going
to be less. Right, You're going to be like, no, I can do this shit right Like I I will say, I'm happy to have even at this moment, excellent teachers, excellent mentors right now to teach me all sorts of cool shit. But when I vetted them, they were betting me right back. Of course, when I vetted them, it didn't come from a position of I need someone to show me the real magic. I have the real magic. I have plenty of fucking magic. I have a lifetime
of magic. No, yes, but literally, when you when you get to the point where you are magical more than just I do magic. When you're able to do cool shit, you know you're you're a lot they're a lot less prone to jump on someone else's dick about. You know, I need to I need I need to have this this, this,
this guru figure, this like master figure. You know, you're a lot less likely to believe with someone some secret chief or whatever just because they say they are, because maybe you've trained enough that you can see someone's org field and you're like, actually, you're not special, or most importantly, you're not any better than me. And if they're not,
then you shouldn't be fucking learning from them. If they're not actively leagues better than you, able to do things you can't do, they're not worth your time.
Another question I had, I don't know if maybe you've ever seen this. You're old enough, I think probably have you ever seen Poke Runyon's old video with him dealing with this?
Yeah? Oh yeah, noly did I see them? I watched them with my fucking dad. We watched them together, because you remember, I'm thirty seven, I'm not exactly super young, you know, but with his with his running voice like I saw no, no, no, no, nah. You know what I love about Poke Running? That motherfucker did not pretend like he wasn't about the bitches either. When you read his book, he's like I had a vision of amazing new viral women. I'm like, yeah you did. Bro, Like,
yeah you did. Boy like didn't give a fuck, but like, no, truly, truly, Poke Running is a treasure just because of how he didn't give a fuck like he was he was doing what he was doing. I don't necessarily think that his his opinions on certain things about how Gaatia works were completely correct, but people have had great success with his system, so I can't I can't knock its efficacy. I just think that he fell into the category of at least standing outwardly a less of a less of a general
belief in the reality of spirits. Then I would have preferred.
Well, one thing I did this when I came across that video. I mean, well, I kind of had an idea because when I printed out the book, uh, and there was obviously all the stuff that came with the Gaysia besides that. But the one thing I did appreciate is that he did focus on like you know, there was other books in this thing besides the Gaysia that probably should be read before you deal with that. And
I don't think too many people will. I keep it from my experience when I was in the magical community. I don't think too many people actually knew that at all.
No, they don't. I mean, if you look at the third Geo go Aisia, I don't know fucking hardly anybody who ever worked that one. I don't even know most people who worked the Amadal.
When you said that, I was like, oh.
The only reason I worked it is because later on I saw people talking about it, because, like I did, I started with the Greater Keen the Lesser key, I sort of hybrid that my my dad put together, you know, in his own way, and then adding it to folk magic, and then you know, learning pardon and having his tech added to the system and everything. And then later on
in my life. But I say later on, probably when I was like twenty three, maybe I came across a blog talking about it online and I was like, oh, I can do that, like and I did it, you know, I mean, it happened. It was funny because it happened to be the end of winter when I found it, and I was like, oh shit, I can do this, like in a month, I can actually just do this, like now, it's the perfect time. And so I started it and you know when when when aries began and uh,
you know, I did it for that year. Yeah. And it's funny is I was. I was out of college for like maybe a year and a half at that point, and I had nothing to do. I had like a very very mediocre job, you know, I had nothing doing for that whole year really, and I was like, yeah, fuck it, I'll do and that's why I can add this into my ship. And I did it, and everyone I know. I actually have a local student that I
walked through the Almadel. We did it together recently and it was cool because even doing it later in my life, like recently within the last two years, I found that it was even cooler, even more generatively uplifting. Yes, Pascal Beverly Randolph was goaded as shit, but like absolute legend, but yeah, I know so. But I found that doing the Almadel, even multiple times in your life produces even
more in illuminating results in personal life. It also makes your energy work practice stronger, which is the thing that I don't think a lot of people talk about.
Listen, yeah, I have heard that. Actually nice? Uh, real quick, I would like to get back to that actually if you don't mind, but real quick, would you? Yeah? I love that you said the almadel I have a you know, I've messed with that, but didn't go into like the Goetia. I guess it was just more of like kind of dealing with angels and stuff like that. You use the
Olympic spirits. I don't know if sometimes too. What could you describe like with the other books, you know, and the stuff with the angels, like what's the that's a collection of things. Can you maybe give a little bit more of an explanation for people.
You mean, like the other books in the La Megatine?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, can you explain that to the Pauline art which as you make a table of practice and you work with various planetary spirits based off of astrological timing, you need the third yeago Asia, which is admittedly the least best described in terms of method.
I'm not going to lie to you. I, when in doubt, take the method from the Greater Key the like general summoning to spirits, and you can kind of slot whatever spirit from the third yeago Asia in there that you need and as and as long as you use the same methodology, you're fine. These spirits come just fine. That's it.
It's it's kind of just just like the working man's hack for this, because, like I said, the third Yeagoisia and specific it's the least all described and you're kind of looking at all these spirits, it gives you when you're not told much of what they do exactly, you're not told a whole lot of what they're for compared to the other spirits in there. And most people start with the Gaisia.
You know.
John King is a live journal blogger dude, also a solomonk magician, also a jeweler who who talks about how he believes that you should start with the Almadele and go all the way up and the Gayshia should be your last thing. So you know, it's it's it's it's not it's not unheard of completely, but like I said, my experience with the Pauline Art and the third Jiguaisia
are fairly limited. Like I've worked with them just to say I did, but I haven't gotten and honestly, in my opinion, the Pauline Art creates an unnecessarily byzantine method of planetary magic that you can use the Heptameron to
have better results with, and people have. I will say, though, I think, and I haven't done this, but it seems to me like if you are a Pickatrix magician and you want to do the really deep astrological stuff with petitions, the Pauline Arts table of practice, it's working table, would facilitate that. But that's like a cross system merger that people would need to need to experiment with. But it seems to me like you could because it's built into you know, Western astrology pretty effectively.
I know, uh, there's a lot of angel work that you could end up doing prior to the Gatia correct.
Oh, yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know, I mean, if you're if you're a if you're an Abramelin guy, then you know you got to get the big angel before you you fuck with them. If you you know, if you do the trithemis drawing spirits and the crystals, things you're gonna be working with, you know, all sorts of planetary angels and whatnot. I will say, having done that as well. Angels will always try to talk you out
of anything that isn't angelic magic. We even see this historically speaking in the excellent Book of Visions, where the two magicians talk about how angels show up and the like, we can give you everything that these things are giving you, don't you know, don't risk your soul, don't do whatever, in like a very Christian context. Anecdotally, I have had an angel say like when I was much younger, when I was perhaps seventeen, you know you you you oughtn't
to do this. I can give you everything that these things can give you. And I'm like, you can, but will you like cause again you know, full disclosure, I was. I was getting hose, you know, I was out there living life, and I was like, will you give me these things? Will you give me my vices?
And it was like, no, give me my vices?
Like honest, that's what I is, That's what it was. I'm I know who the fuck I am? Yeah?
No, no, no, that's great things.
But I said, will you give this to me? And it said no, but I'll give you better, like I'll give you a wife. And I was like, I don't want a wife. I want hose. Like I didn't say hose at the time. I said been. The point is like I want, I want lovers. I want I want to hare them and I don't want you know, ah, the white picket fence. At that point in time, I was fucking seventeen years old, you know, I was, I was, I was, I was trying to live my life, Biden
the live wire of magic. Because I will say one thing, when you are that young and you have it.
Like that, oh I could even imagine.
Honestly, Like at this point, it's funny because how much I I have a brother who has three children and they are still small and they are not going to learn until they're eighteen. Like that was. That was the agreement because of how much I got up to when I was a kid. You know, because it's one of those things too, like you know, somebody pisses you off,
that's that's a bad day for them, man. Like you know, because you're you have the live wire of I can do whatever the fuck I want and nothing's really going to stop you. Like a thing I was told when I was very young. So I was given two narratives when I was a kid. One is that like there there are you know, spirits and things that stop you from going too far. And then another narrative was that the know they're though they're not like, there's no police
for this, there's nothing. I don't know which one I believe to be true. I think about this occasionally because I've done good and I've done bad in my life and eschatological questions are fascinating, and you know, the more you project out of your body, experience spiritual states, talk to divine beings, all these things you in my experience, I'm left with more questions and answers. So I don't see a lot of proof one way or the other.
But it is interesting because when you are a kid, that is the last thing you give a fuck about, you know what I mean. That is not what's on your mind. You're just out there trying to do what you're trying to do. But it is that same handful of wild years that built a skill set in me early because I was doing magic for magic's sake, you know what I mean, just to do it, just to feel that feeling, you know what I mean, to feel
that rush of holy shit. I did this, like I made this happen, and I chase that my whole life, I still do.
Uh. One thing I did want to ask if you don't mind you know, I mean, I guess I guess as descriptive as you don't mind getting into just for some people, because I don't even think I even got into this with the guy that I had on who was into the Gatia solomonic magic. Can you give an idea? Obviously, since you've practiced it, you could do a lot better job than I can, But would you mind maybe giving
people an idea? Like the whole circle, the triangle, what you're wearing, all that stuff, Like what is it actually?
Yeah? Like what you're doing?
Like explain because you know so somebody like, you know, maybe explain a little bit more. This person may have no idea, like when you're saying you're doing this.
Yeah, so if you're doing it. Traditionally you have you have what I refer to as a protection array and a containment array. Right, the circle is your protection array. Different grand wires will give you different circles. They all they all include god names, a traditional one for the go.
And it's funny because when I was taught it, I saw the circle in English, not Hebrew, because my old man doesn't speak Hebrew, and he was like, well, this is what it says, and we have we have textual evidence, especially from like the doctor Rudd stuff, which was not unique to Stephen Skinner's knowledge. Incidentally, there there are families of people who know this. But also you know, you look into it and you're like, well, this is what it says in Hebrew, because in the back of the
Gaatia they will tell you. Even the Dolorance edition will tell you what it says, like they'll translate it, and you're like, all right, cool, I'm just going to write this in English. So you know, it's got the names of planetary angels, which you then walk around the circle and you call them one or turn another to protect you. You will have been wearing vestments, usually like a white
linen robe. Some people will wear priest's robes. My mother's people were kind of like weird magic Catholic, so I you know, stole a priest's alb from a church when I was a kid. I was up, yeah, yeah, yeah, So see you they get that you might have a knife, you might have a sword, if you doing the full Greater Key of Solomon setup, you have a lot of stuff you have, like special shoes and specialists, and specially
that you don't really need all that. To be completely honest with you, you're gonna be wearing the Pentacle of Solomon on your neck that that that brings spirits into control of you. You have the ring of Spirit Felty that you have to make or have made in the era of today's world. You can easily order that shit on Stephen Nicole. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but so you can. You can get the ring on fucking Etsy or whatever. Again, my old band is a jeweler, so I was lucky
that way. Then you have the Hexagram of Solomon, which you wear kind of like a Masonic apron. I believe that's probably where it was. To be fair, though, most working Solomon positions that I know will actually have that just propped up on their altar rather than wearing it, because you don't really need to wear it. The thing just needs to see you. They needs to see it because you say, you know, like behold the Hexagram of Solomon, assume a comely form that helps to bind and control
the demon. The triangle is gonna have three three specific god names around it and in the center. It's gonna have the name of the archangel Michael, which you also call to help bind the demon that you summon, you like trace it with your sword or your knife through inside the circle. You're gonna have a little altar probably just to have your stuff, like you're gonna have a Libra spiritum, a book that you know you especially make to contain the spirit's names and their seals. You're also
gonna wear the seal of the spirit. You're gonna call on a layman around your neck typically if you're if if you know you don't have jeweler skills, which I don't. I did not inherit that from my father. By the way, you're gonna put that on like virgin parchment, because you know, not everybody can can can can be fucking making and making a layman's you know what I mean. There is
one specific item, the lion's skin belt for protection. We find in more recent Grimoire translations examples of like a deer skin belt, like like like a stag skin belt, and I forget what it's called, the suma something the Steven Skinner just put out. There's an example belt with all the seventy two Chimham foursh angels' names on it to provide protection. There's lots of these things. Those aren't
strictly necessary. I have found in my own practice that the fifth pentacle of Mars, the won't scorpion on it that terrifies and binds demons, can be used in its place just as an extra layer of protection on you. Supposing you have all that, supposing you've purified yourself correctly, either through the fasting listed in the book or through energetic practices that you have to be crucially actually good at, like you have to not suck at those for this
to be able to replace that. Then you know you're standing there. You get the calls ready and you start. You start to do the incantations, after you've blessed yourself,
blessed the candles, blessed to everything you know. The Greater Key of Solomon includes an entire section on like this bless is the pen, you use, this bless is the book, this bless is the thing, and even including a general blessing, which, by the way, for those who are in want a cool trick, the general blessing can be used to enchant fucking anything, like anything. So if you're like making, for example, a mojo hand in a folk match of context. You
drop that general blessing on it. It boosts it, so, you know, don't don't don't don't think it isn't eminently useful, because it is. And then, like I said, you got all your stuff right, you start to call the spirit. You do, you know, each call gets progressively more aggressive, until you're threatening the spirit. You're stabbing its seal with a knife, You're putting it in a box of fire
and smoke. You're you know. Also in the aforementioned excellent book of Visions, they talk about drowning it in awful water, stepping on it, you know, beating up the seal, because that will cause harm to the spirit involved. The doctor Rudd method includes attaching a swarting angel to each demon that softens its rage. I found this to be true. It makes them more obedient, it makes them more docile, it makes them less likely to try to fuck you up.
So what you do is you will give that angel a particular offering of say frank consense, like three days before you summon it. And you're like, hey, angel, so and so I'm gonna call this demon in three days I'm gonna need you to help. And so you have that thing's either seal or name on a separate layman. And that's kind of the setup. You know, you call it until it shows up. Now, realistically, either you're gonna
see it and hear it clearly or you're not. If you don't, that doesn't mean you can't see it in a visionary context. That doesn't mean that like the weird daydreams and ideations you're having while doing this ritual art, the spirit sometimes they are. We are all developed to different levels, and frankly, none of us are. None of us are perfect. Everyone has off days. You might be
conjuring and you don't see or feel anything. You know, I'll be one of the first people out there to say anybody who tells you they don't ever have an off day is fucking lying to you. But just like my old man told me, if nothing happens you don't feel anything, you should still make your ask. You should still be like, all right, spirits, And so I want you to do this, and then you do the license it depart, which sends it away. You do it three times and then it's gone. Typically, even if you see
and feel nothing. You're probably gonna get what you ask for now, context, be specific about what you asked for. Don't let the monkeys paw you. Don't be stupid. Write your petition out, bring it on paper, read it, and reread it in the days leading up to the conjuration. You know edits needed. Should if you have a buddy you trust, have them read it for any potential errors, because you know they'll give you the letter of what you ask for. But sometimes you know the number of
people who've asked for money and had parents die. I don't.
That's a good way of putting it. Sometimes you be surprised how you might end up getting what you wanted. Yeah, I get that. That's interesting. Yeah, that was pretty, uh, pretty in depth. Thank you. I really appreciate it. That was like, I really don't think you could have really added much more to that. Yeah, I don't know. Jin you got anything you want to ask her to get into or talk about.
Yeah, I actually have a follow up to that. That was really grey, Alex. And obviously you did a like an impeccable job at explaining like a whole ritual setup. I never did it that elaborately myself, but I used adapted chaos methods, we'll say, but I want to ask you about the sort of folk methodology that's very popular on Instagram. Our mutual friend CJ recorded a great episode with me. I can't even remember the episode number, but
it was the No Curses for Old Men. So he uses a more I'll say, like it's more rooted in like whodoo folk magic conjure, and that this is more similar. It's not exactly the same way, but he does. I think he does a really good job in my opinion. So I wanted to know if you use those methods or what do you think of them, and if you could like give a little layout of how someone go about, yeah aativating them in that way.
So one, I think it's important to realize that these methods are not new. A lot of grim Wars include their books of secrets. The Grimori and Varum is the most famous for this that basically give you folk magic methods of working with these spirits. Where I disagree with some people is I think you should have already summoned the spirit as traditionally as possible and bound it, got it to swear fealty to you, got it to swear
not to fuck with you. You know, got it to give you its own special name by which you call it, or in its own seal by which you know it alone, and then you can just slott it into that. Because again, big fan of who do and conjure, as I said, big fan of the skeleton of that folk magic, because it's so adaptable to fucking everything, I will say you can. You can absolutely take planetary spirits without any issue, without ever having conjured them fully, angels, even elemental spirits the
same way. The demons, I will say, are a little bit I would argue you should would probably have them connected better to mostly harness the full extent of their power, because realistically, operatively, what it looks like in real life is you call a demon and you go, okay, cool, whatever, I need to do this. And again part of the licenses apart is come again when I call you. And when you do that, you don't need to do the fasting anymore. You don't need to do all that stuff.
And you say it coming, I'm going to call you, causing no harm to my people, my anything, blah blah blah. So you're mostly safe from it at that point, and most of the time. When you call these things and you ask them like, hey, how do I do this? They'll be like, okay, cool, get my seal, draw it on. I don't know, the skull of a raven that you find, and and I'll say things like I'll bring it to you.
I'll bring you the skull of a bird like this, Paint my seal onto it, light a candle over it, and then put your petition under it, and now'll you do whatever? Or you slaught it directly into you know, folk magic like no Vina candles, you know, incantation bowls, the whole nine yards. You slaughter it all the way in and it works. But like I said, in my opinion,
you should have had the correct connection with demons now. Also, we know very thoroughly that solomonic pentacles or even parts of them, have been used by root workers for fucking decades. Like you know, you'll see this like people will, for example, make a charmbag and one of the ingredients will be a solomonic pannicle drawn on paper with a petition on the back of it. You can do this too, And let's say you want more money, you draw the second penticle of Jupiter on a piece of paper in the
day and hour of Jupiter. You turn it upside down, you write a whodoo petition like your name three times rotated clockwise, more money, three times rotated clockwise. Around that, you write in a circle, like I want to make this much from this beat a passive income. I'm going to do this month for da You make a circle, flip it over, you do it slots right the fuck in so like, yeah, no, that shit is great. I do it all the time for clients myself. But also
not everything is going to require a full conjuration. And most importantly, this shit is fun and it looks cool.
It can't you know it can be get very arts, arts and crafty with this stuff.
Oh yeah, dude, you absolutely can. It's funny. I actually knew somebody right. This is this is a love spell this chick did where she made a poppet of somebody. She laid it down and she got the fifth pinnacle of Venus, which is like you see me and you love me, And she put it on the thing's face and she waterboarded it with like some line that she like prayed the song of Solomon into It was the most unhinged ship, but they're married. Now fuck yeah, it's
some ship. That's another thing too. You can you can you can slot biblical conjure into this ship as well, like all the way up, you know, because people use the particle, so all magic hits like a truck.
You know what I'm saying, Like, yeah, what'd you talk about that a little bit? I don't know if a lot of people know that. There's a lot of people that I know that like you straight up psalms from them?
Yeah, yeah, now that's the thing. I mean, ship. You know, there are plenty of b about like what Psalm does what? Or what biblical passage even does what? And regardless of you're metaphysics, whether you are yourself a Christian or whether you simply believe that the aggregor of Christianity has gotten so beefy as a result of all the blood spilting its name, either way, that shit works. Like the whole thing is a fucking spell book. So like you know,
love spell, Song of Solomon. You know, if you want to be protected Psalm ninety one, you want to be cleansed of any negative miasma Psalm fifty one, you just want to be lucky Psalm twenty one, you want to fuck somebody up, Psalms fifty two all the way through fifty nine. You know, whatever you want to do, there's a psalm for it. And you can add that shit to candle magic, and you get yourself a glass candle like a novina candle. You write that psalm in a
spiral around that motherfucker. Right, you light it, and every day, three times a day, you go back and you pray the psalm and the candle's flame continues to empower it
because you've conjured it thus. Right, Because again, all candle magic we use, no all, I take that back, Maybe seventy percent of candle mass that we use is adapted from like Congolese lamp magic, right, like, so you know there's a lot of that too, which is also one of the reasons why like a lot of conjure people will take those like glass in case hurricane lamps, right, they'll put all sorts of curios in that thing. You know, they'll make a huge spell. So it's like a candle
spell plus a plus a conjure bag. Every time you light it, it just goes. You know, you front load that ship and it works. Yeah, man, it's it's you can do all sorts of amazing ship with this.
Yeah, I think, uh, what I used to do, like whatever I was doing the only sanitary magic and stuff for the most part of Cabala. I used to use like crystals, sigils, you know, like I would include a like a lot of different things. Like I forgot what I was going with that. What were you saying? Probably, I'm sorry I was.
I was just going off.
Man, there was something I was gonna honestly, like.
It's just you. You can you can slot solimonic magic into into conjure who do et cetera super effectively. In there people who do it and make their whole careers off it. There are people who build lives off of that shit. You know, it works incredibly well.
And we'll say, sorry, Nick if you remember it. I don't want to. No, No, I think Alex is reading my mind, because actually I love Psalm fifty two through fifty nine, although I use fifty seven for a different purpose. But you can also use it in an impectatory way. Certainly, if you read it, there's elements of that in it, or at least reflection deflection. But those are some great impectatory Psalms really underrated, really underrated. I just want to say that.
No, I mean, if you feel, if you feel under threat by anything, you read Psalms fifty two through fifty nine and then you finish it with fifty one and twenty three. So you're cursing people and you're blessing yourself. Then you're purifying yourself and you're blessing yourself. You do that morning, noon, and night, you'll see who your enemies are. Their teeth will shatter, you know, I'll have emrors. Is
I dental work. They'll fall down and hurt themselves. They'll be blighted in many ways by warning though, if you do that shit, it's gonna work. And people you thought were your friends, maybe they're not your friends. You know what I mean. So just understand.
I don't know why I was bringing it up, but I remember now what I was gonna say is that, like I think maybe a candle magic made me think about something about how like I would incorporate that in sigils and like whole whole bunch of stuff, like regardless of like what I was working sometimes saying like I could be doing tobalistic a planetary magic and somehow I
would just incorporate that candle has the right color. I might have put the right oils on it, maybe trusted with some herbs that match everything too, just to have like extra you know whatever.
Yeah, stages it up. Man, it's his thing. It's it's it's it's sort of the ubiquitous sort.
Of plus it's it can be fun as it's fun as fuck.
It's also the ubiquitous structural language of magic. At this point. The only thing I will say that I find to be a weakness that it has is you will find a lot of people and I hate it sounded like something like bitter old head because I have a beef with boomers in the eccult community in general. Like I
will say that full on. But a lot of people they can't do magic without fucking candles, and like if you can't like get a piece of earth and conjure it, you know, and if you can't get water and pray over it and enchant it. If you can't, it's like, you know, capture the wind in a knot using ligature magic, you know, Like you need to work in balancing your shit, right. I think there's an elemental imbalance because I'm a big Bartain guy. I think there's an elemental imbalance in the
ecull community of fire. I think that's one of the reasons why you're seeing a lot of misplaced aggression personally. And I think it's because of the ubiquitous nature of like, you know, Instagram, candlespells. They look they look great, but it's like, can you do the magic, you know, with a different element, you know what I mean?
Like, Kin, did you have anything you want to say?
Well, Barnon emphasizes meditation, and this is something that Nick and I often and well Nick obviously it's his show, but he always asks magicians whenever they're on, and it's something that him and I speak about on the show, and then also privately, just the importance of like a fundamental meditation practice. I just wanted to know if that
is a part. Not storry Nick, I'm not trying to steal your question, that's totally disgusting, but you know, is this a big part of your practice, Alex and how important would you say it is? And in relation to Bardon who says it should be like a daily thing.
Oh yeah, crucially, Now, if you don't have at least a daily at the very least a daily mindfulness practice, and I think it's going to be more than that. I mean, my bare minimum meditative load out is observing my thoughts, single pointed focus, and in evacuity of mind every day without exception. And I do multiple hours of seated energetic practices, you know, astral practices, all sorts of
stuff every day. I mean, I do it. But again, like also do this for a living, so I have the luxury of having the time, But like I do know, I think it's crucial, and I think if you're not training your magic, the magic that is you, rather than
just spirits, you're missing out. It's one of the reasons why I have a love hate relationship with Barden and have my whole life, because I think that he produced one of the best although I would argue maladapted training methods that we have in the Western canon, I would argue that there are people now who teach Barden better
than Barden. But I mean, if you and I hate saying this because like I think that those of us who are Barden heads owe him a great debt, but I think that you shouldn't listen to his opinions about things. If you want to be an operative magician because he falls in the category of magic is very real and that's unfortunate, right, like he I don't know. Again, one day, at the end of all things, my ghost will meet his ghost and will have a conversation. I think it'll
hate me, but that's okay. I just yeah, I think that that's extraordinarily crucial because if you don't, you're discerned is weak, and if your discernment is weak, you can be taken for a ride. And I've seen it my whole life with magicians who were powerful, like objectively powerful occultists who you know, ended up, you know, facing oblivion as a result of a lack of discernment. So yeah, rotate the apple in your head man, every day.
Thank you, thank you. I mean that's like a common thing really with anybody. And thank you for bringing up jin because actually forgot that question. Anybody that I would say is so much serious or worth listening to, they always are telling you almost the first thing. And I again have to learn to meditate. Unfortunately. You know a lot of people hate that, hate that word, but.
I mean, I don't know, man, it's it's it's always important. But like it sharpens you, you know, I mean it's I'm I'm big on a need for fundamentals training in magic because I always try to approach it like a craft, like a skill, like anything else. You know, like if you're a guitar player, say, and you don't practice with a metronome, you don't run your scales, you don't you know, practice, whatever it is you're doing not going to be very good. You need a bass, just like in magic you need
a bass. You need you know, a seated or even moving practice. I think that's actually the thing that Barden lacks is he doesn't talk about body work in practice at all, which I mean, again not exactly he has alter or anything, but I think that's the thing you can do to enhance stuff. He also doesn't talk to anything about like timelines of training and man, again, I hate I hate being again, I hate being like a complete dickhead. But like, I think that the Barden community
as a whole is also part of the problem. That they worship the Man as a god and they talk about like this is a lifelong practice, and I'm like, if you can't get through Barden's first book in six months to a year, it's because you're not doing it right. You're not trying hard enough, Like you're not reading between the lines of Barden bitching at you for having human emotions and wants and desires.
Something else I thought about asking, but I lost it a bit ago. We talked about the Solomonic managing Goeti folk magic. Is there anything else that's under your belt that you maybe we didn't talk about yet.
Honestly, Barden better than Barden, I guess you'd say, like I do. To be fair, I have a lot of practices and a lot of arkanas that I don't publicly talk about because you shouldn't ever show your whole hand, right. There are also things that frankly, I'm not advanced enough, Like I'm technically initiated in Trinidad in Obeya, but I haven't been many years in it yet. But it is a thing that I do. But yeah, I mean, when it comes to the other thing I do, it's actually
a big thing I teach. You know, I put out a thing called The Principles of Magic Course where I basically teach Barden's first book and part of his second, with you know, some adaptations that make it more workable with some timelines and training that make more reasonable. The reason I did that was as I was doing one on one teaching pedagogy for people who, you know, wanted to learn, and I realized that a lot of people just weren't as good at this as they thought they were.
And it's kind of heartbreaking when you're talking to someone who's like, I want to make my life better. I want these amazing things. And I've been doing magic for thirty years and you're like, have you or have you been adjacent to magic for thirty years? Like have you? It's kind of like someone goes, oh, I've been playing drums since I was fourteen, and you're like, na, homie, you owned a drum set since you were fourteen, Like you haven't been playing I have been practicing him and
grinding since you were fourteen. And I found that people lacked, you know, even the ability to hold a thought in their mind for a few minutes without without interference, you know, all those basic exercises they just didn't do. So I put a lot of it together, like, no, not only are these important, but each one of them does something can be used to do something mechanically and physically for
your benefit. You know, even just using the Barden's idea of the cultivation of vital energy can make you physically stronger in the gym, Like, you should be able to do that and see physical results it can make you if you have if you push the elemental air through your body, you should be able to run faster or longer, or hike for longer distances without fatigue. Like, you should be able to do these things, provided you've put in
the requisite time. The thing is, Barden didn't talk about this, and I do you know, if you put in five cumulative hours of an elemental energy, you should be able to generate it cleanly. So if you practice for fifteen minutes a day, how long until you get to roughly five hours. There you go, and any one of my students will will be the first one to tell you, like, yeah, it's you can generate it like that once you get it, and it can be used to actually make the world better.
Problem is, you read Bardon and he tells you all these cool things you should do, But then he's like, but unless you have the will of divine providence, you're damned forever if you ever use this for personal gain
and you're like, fuck you Barton, you know what I mean? Like, So, yeah, that's the other thing I hammer on about, man, like I'm a I'm a big crusader about you know, these fundamental skills in themselves are a magical system that if you had nothing else but them, you could build whatever life you wanted for yourself.
Definitely can be used for good. Sure jin you got anything else you wanted to ask, right.
I think that I think Alex is correct that like you should use sorcery. Maybe I prefer a mor surgical plus thometrgy approach, like I like both together. Obviously, I just like I would practice the Keys of Solomon slightly
differently than Alex described I would. I say, it's a unified system between Goushia and angels, and they are just merely reflections of each other, and so to work them in that way is more synthetic, maybe more Christian cabalistic process, like you're going more for a tiphoretic consciousness, as we
often talk about on the show. So that's just my personal opinion, And obviously I take a non dual approach, but I agree that you should use the practices not only to better your life, or the material life, but also yourself. And just like self improvement is possible, people can change. They are fluid, We're in flux. I just I think that's a really important point for right now, because a lot of people forget that they have their own agency, their own free will. And I do actually
believe in free will very strongly. So I even think that if you have a strong enough free will, I actually think a lot of magic won't work on you.
Just my opinion, but I would argue that it's true to a point. I find that it is harder to influence, to dominate those of us who have a strong and developed will with magic. There are of course workarounds for that. You know, if you can't you know, overpower something you can still corral. It is still trickery you can do. But and again that's that's that's the forever arms race
of magic and witchcraft. Man, Like you know, the first person to ever learn to figure out a mirror spell in ten seconds, someone figured out how to reverse a mirror spell, you know what I mean? Like, it's it's it's it's the nerdy magic guy brain. You know that just it just you know works with tech, especially if you're an operator, right, like you're you know, you're like, I get this ship done. I make this ship work.
But yeah, I mean, but even looking at like Barden's cultivation stuff, you know, like if you want to be smarter, you know, packing your head full of the element of air will make you smarter, will make your memory better, you know, And I mean there are too many there are too many case studies of this in my own students and in people who teach similar things for me
to even deny, even outside of my own experience. You know, if you use servitors correctly, for example, they should be able to speed up your learning of skills by orders of magnitude, which is why so many magicians were considered fucking polymaths because they were just really good at stuff, you know. I mean there's a reason why, like things like the arsenatoria exist where you know, grimmore's a rapid learning they work. I know people who've done them, you know.
I mean, if you can't make your life, See, my biggest thing is not just making your life better, but making your life fucking awesome. Like you should not be a magician and having a life. You're like, eh, it's all right, now you should be fucking stoked, like what are you doing? And again people get mad, But my retort to that is always if that makes you mad, maybe hit dogs holler you know what I mean, Like,
maybe I touch something sensitive in you. Because your life isn't what you want it to be, but it could be. Everything you want is real. It can be yours, it ought to be, and if you have access to this, you can make it yours. You don't even have to be that fucked up to do it. You don't need to be less some craven black magician, although they are
out there and they do exist. You know, there are some super villains out there, but like, you don't have to be you know, you don't need to like like I talk about this a lot too, right, Like I gave the example of the love spell. I don't condone compulsory love magic for two reasons. One it's fucked up, but two it's insufficient spiritual technology. At this point, again, we live on the Internet. The Internet is our bioregion, our psychic bioregion. Right, you know you want to get
a certain kind of partner. Why do you care about Sally down the road when you can do any sort of road opener drawing thing, using for example, the magnetic current Embardins thing to draw the right kind of partner to you. You can even have a build a bitch workshop list, you know what I mean. You can make I want to look like this, be into this like some anime, do whatever, and as long as you aren't a complete fucking troglodite, you pull it off better than you think.
Yes, I you remember what one of the questions I was gonna ask.
You hit me with it when.
It comes to like, I guess, uh, the articaatia? What were you using like the ones that Mathers and Crowley did? Do they you go back further?
Which so when I was first shown it again, it was it was it was my father's book. You know, his stuff came from the Mathers and Crowley thing, but also other sources, right like he because he talked to people over his life, you know what I mean. He talked to other practitioners, got tips and tricks from them, you know, like they there wasn't there wasn't the internet
as there is today. But you know, if you were a worldly traveled person, you ran into your own kind because we called to each other, you know what I mean, Like our hearts sing to each other, and you know, you meet them, you talk and eventually after you got over the squirrely like is this guy trying to work me or whatever?
It's funny we.
Got that ship though. No, man, it's real. You know, it's real, you know out there. But like it's one of those situations where like, you know, he found some stuff. But so it was really it was. It was from that, but it was like, for example, right in the Matterson Crowley one, you will say the Boornless Ritual before the thing. I was always taught the Headless Ritual from the PGM, like that was. I was taught that and what I saw so much so that when I saw the Boornless Ritual,
I was like, well, someone got this shit wrong. Like I didn't have a Lodge magic concept. That was another thing too. When I was coming up. My old man was like, the Golden Dawn is retarded. It doesn't do magic really well. It doesn't give you anything that makes things happen very well. So that was my concept. I have met Golden Dawn members that could do magic, admittedly, but not many. Let me just say, let me.
Just interrupt you there, Alex, just simply because we did have Jimmie Paul Lamb like Nick did. I shouldn't say we, but Nick didn't have Jamie Paul Lamb on and he was a very while I was there, but he was a very impressive magician, very impressive. And I'm very particular, and I'm pretty good at caabala myself, so.
Sure, sure, just like just like, for example, John Michael Greer is from I've never met him, but people I know have he's good, as I understand it, and people I trust say that his magic is good. The point is I was told when I was coming up, these things aren't worth your time, and so I didn't bother.
I didn't read any of it. I didn't look into any of it when I was coming because I was I was mostly concerned about like, well, again, if the only especially when I was super young, if the only person teaching me says this is this is bad, then fucking okay, Well it is what it is. I'm just here to learn the cool shit when I when I became older, I read more into these things and I met more people that could do things, but in general I was somewhat less educated than my peers in terms
of the pure academics of it. When I was much younger, because I was an operator, you know what I mean. I was here to do the thing. I may not have been able to be converse in the tree of life when I was, say eighteen, but I could fucking touch you, you know what I mean. I could. I could reach out for miles away and be where you were,
you know, because I practiced hard. And I've actually found that to be true where I've met practitioners who were deeply, deeply almost occult illiterate, but they were aggressive about their training and it showed right like they could do things. Their magic was stronger, if dumber, I guess you'd say, right. And that was kind of me when I was coming up, you know, like I could do all sorts of things. But I actually didn't read that many books by people
I had in person teachers, you know. I was fortunate that way, but it actually gave me. And this is the thing where I was incorrect when I was younger. I actually had kind of a low opinion of people who had just learned from books or loge systems or whatever, because I was told that their magic was largely weak.
I was incorrect about that. In general, I will say there is something that is to be gained from repetitive aggressive practice, you know, in terms of these skills, But there's lots of different ways to get there, you know what I mean.
Yes, So like now, like you still use that version or oh yeah, I mean it's it's it's it's it was not I that's what you choose. No, no, no, it's it's it's The thing is the gawaisha I learned is still what I use. It's my it's it's my it's
my family legacy. I mean, it's it's it's my blood, you know, just like just like I look at bardon as something I can't walk away from, and and American folk magic is something I can't walk away from, not that I would ever want to, but that's that's who I am during during my like formative years, growing up, having puberty, you know, learning these things, these things are as attached to my soul as anything could be. You know, like I will always find home in those practices.
As critical as I am a bardon.
Uh have you ever had have you ever had any experience of the ars inatoria?
Uh?
So personally no, but I actually know. I have two really good friends who did work some of it, one of them for musical talent, who had none, and then within six months he was going to jam because I play guitar, right, he was going to jam sessions with me. And he's not amazing, but he went from like zero to competent enough to go to a jazz jam session. So like, that's fucking if if you know anything about like specifically like improv based jazz, that's fucking impressive. Right,
And another person learned Latin in relatively short amount of time. Yeah, that's what he absolutely works, but I have not personally done it yet.
Yeah, yeah, that almost makes me think about uh oh yeah that what's his name, Jed Donald Bruno with like his whole memory shit, Oh.
Yeah, I know, dude, big big Bruno fan over here, big big big fan of the mind palace, right, Like I funk.
With that, nice, nice, nice Yeah. I just released a solo show on him, like a couple of weeks ago. Two parts was a gangster, absolutely fucking I had to. I guess I don't know if it was really his mouth, I guess it was his pen. It's like every time he would just put something out, but like, this person is a fucking idiot, Like that's basically what he was doing, and white people didn't like him. It's because he was arguing and being kind of a dick about.
It that he didn't. The man had an aggressive aspect.
No, I know, I love it, hilariot.
So it was like fun.
He would totally fit.
In all, specifically three of us, and we all have like our Yeah, we're all a little fiery, and I think that that is.
Oh he'd fit right in. Yeah, no, he'd be great. Now. It is perfect. But uh yeah, I guess I guess they will wrap it up there. I'm sure we could have a discussion on something else in the future. But uh yeah, I pretty much got whatever I was like hoping to ask you to talk about.
So shit, man, I'm I'm glad to be here. Thank you for lamble too much.
Oh no, oh dude, that was great. You explained a lot of stuff that I've never actually had talked about on the show before. So that's great because I do think chin I may be wrong, but like I'm pretty sure Jamie pul Lamb didn't really the way he did it. I don't think it was like you're the way he does, right, No.
He definitely, but he trained in Golden Dawn, so he had like all the ceremonial fundamentals like for a decade or two decades or however long. But the way he adopted it was much more like my style. I mean, I'm not saying because he kind of invented his own sort of even working methodology. You're yeah, I would say he invented his own. He kind of pioneered his own style, but he is he is taking cues from chaos magic.
So it's more similar to how I would maybe approach more traditional system myself, just simply because that is my like origin background, like a grip up plus chaos magic. So yeah, I just think that the chaos magic things seems to feel a lot more popular with like like you've had so many people on Nick, like from the Oto or from this and they're all talking about consciousness.
Now they're all talking about meditation, they're talking about dharma, they're talking about just it's magic in a very different way, and it's much more similar to that late eighties like early nineties chaos magic, and even Alex is talking about like a cyber magic well of course, like you can't talk about cyber magic without talking about like Peter Carroll and Liber Chaos and Liber Cyber and all those books, because they I'll talk a lot about this, like using
sort of like the Internet as a sort of primordial ground. Maybe you could even say maybe it's not the primordial ground, maybe it's the carnal ground, and you're using that as sort of like to supplement or as the as alex said, like the sort of the ground we dwell on. So you're using that as like the place, but it's not really a place. It's kind of unfixed. So it's both very powerful and it also maybe opens the door to like certain negative backdraft more more intensely than the quote
unquote real world. Just one way to think about it.
No, I think that's the fuck with that.
Yeah, but uh yeah, that's why I thought. I didn't think he kind of did it the same way. So you know, again, thank you Alexander, because nobody's evercovered that before the show.
So hey, man, I said, man, I'm glad glad to be.
Here, jin real quick before we let Alexander plug everything up. Where can people find you?
People can find me on ex Twitter at wukongra Born to b Uko and g Reborn at Threshold Saints on x Twitter and on ig that's the show account, and on the Gray Lodge at our YouTube and our website which is at the True Gray Lodge dot com t r V gray Lodge dot com and I just dropped an episode, so make sure to check that out. And Alex and I do have an upcoming episode which is really good, to be honest, and I.
Think that was I'm looking forward to that. Actually that was. That episode helped me sharpen a lot of my personal beliefs and I really appreciate you having me on for that one.
Absolutely well. You know, all like discourses the fire of perception, right, so all things sort of like the best ideas arise from the ash of the you know, of the flames of aggressive speech. So I think it was a really great episode, and I appreciate that Alex came on, and I appreciate that Nick of course had Alex on and you know, just growing the circle, I guess, And thank you Nick again for having me on. And I'm really
excited You've got so much lined up for us. And I won't spoil it all, but yeah, call Rejects has a big line up the next three weeks. So thank you so much.
Of course, I'm very excited, very excited, and thank you Jin for real for coming on, and thank you for I mean you suggest that the guests. I appreciate it. It was great. Alexander. Please let everybody know again.
You can find you can find me on a practical Occult dot com that that that's where all my stuff is. You know, you want to I write articles there, I sell classes, sell reading, sell spell work, sell you know, mentorship, et cetera. You can find me on Instagram at the hex Doctor. That's where you see more of my just
goblin level internet dweller personality. And I'm gonna have a substat coming soon where you're going to see the sort of unholy maalcamation of my goblin dweller internet personality with my deep cuts on magic. The substack is going to be for like intermediate and up practitioners. It's not going to really be for people who just want to look at the one oh one that's on Practical a call.
You could find it there, but it's going to be you know, more more of Another thing I will say is it's going to be a lot of like me talking about things I have done, because I think that that's the thing we lack on the Internet now. People are less willing to talk about their achievements rather than or people are really willing to talk about like their
perspectives rather than their personal achievements. And obviously, you know, in the age of you know this is going to date me actually, but the whole picture, it didn't happen thing. I kind of miss some of the old wild West Internet, where you'd read ocultists talk about crazy shit they pulled off, and it would inspire you to want to pull it off, and you would go do it and then maybe you get awesome results. Maybe you wouldn't. Oftentimes you would if
the person was genuine. But it's going to be a lot of that. It's going to be hearkening back to that because I think that I think that the Internet is worse for not having that kind of maverick ship on it more often.
Thank you very much for coming on, man, I really really appreciate it.
Thank you guys, Thank you for having me seriously fucking.
Yeah uh yeah again, uh you know what I need to if you don't mind, After the show, send me all your links and I'll make sure I throw them in the bottom for the chest for the for the show now because it's live, h this may drop I think this weekend and next weekend in on audio. But yeah, so I can throw them into into the video. Now, send that to me so if anybody's interested, hopefully within a little bit, I will have his links down there. Jin again, thank you very much everybody in the chat.
That is what's up. I really appreciate everybody jumping on love all the comments, regardless if you agree or not, and I appreciate it. Yeah, and that is the end of another Recult Rejects and until the next one, everybody be well later right on,