You see, something's going to happen.
What What's gonna happen?
Than what?
Welcome to the Occult Rejects. In this episode, we got a returning guest, Absidari and Mott. We had him on before and I actually, you know, really enjoyed our talk and I had these two gentlemen with me as well, and I wanted to get us back together and maybe talk about something else. And uh, you know, I figured alchemy is always a good topic, especially of us. I know, I think all of us are kind of interested in that thing, alchemy in itself. And uh yeah, so we
got Gin the Ninja back with us. Jin what is up? Thank you very much and let everybody know what the deal is and though who you are, where they can find you.
Sure.
Thank you so much, Nick, and thank you Absidarian, Mott and Robbie.
Of course.
So I'm Jim and Ninja. I have a show called Rushold Saints. I'm often with Nick on oo reject It's not always, but frequently, and I've been doing a five part series on Twitter Spaces called The Aon of the Daughter, which is a plus ultra series is what.
I'm calling it.
So it's a speculative ontology of the history of magic and sort of where we're going into the future. So that's sort of what I have been working on lately. But I have an episode with KB Goldtooth, who is like a personal friend, a journalist, really cool guy, and he looks a lot at Laurel Canyon and Bowie and sort of the magic behind the lyrics, and so we talked a lot about the.
Magic of the media.
So that episode will drop either right after this or tomorrow and more or it will drop by the time this comes out. So thank you guys for having me, and yeah, really looking forward to it.
Thank you very much, sir, appreciate you. What was jumping on, Robbie, Marx my man. Please let everybody how you doing.
Yeah, thanks for having me on, Nick, It's good to hang out here with everyone. And generally I go by our mars. I'm an artist and I do posters for bands and miscellaneous festivals and stuff, but in the meantime, I research and kind of dig into a lot of the esoteric and occult kind of subject I've been doing that for a while and as a result of that, I've got my own podcast, which is other shows I've been on, which is the metamind cast if you want
to check that out. But you can find all my links at our what is it link tree r m A r X link tree r marx and that'll pull up all my stuff.
Awesome, Thank you very much, Robbie. And you know, he's been a guest on here for a long long time. He's done a lot of work on this show, so I mean you can even again it's so you know, it will be on his podcast, so but you know, go check it out over there. He has done a ton of work on this show. And this must be a break for him actually coming on and jumping on with another guest, because normally it's him like reading out of his book for two hours.
It's somewhere and focusing on the art.
You know.
Yeah, that's true, that's true. That is true. And now our guests Absidarian Mott, sir, let everybody know what you deal is again please, Well.
Good night, gentlemen, thanks for having me on again. Well, I'm an esoteric researcher, practicing mystic I go pretty deep into both the Eastern and Western traditions, going to aerodyite research, not that surface level armchair you know, over intellectualizing stuff. But I really go into you know, a lot of to I focus on the key figures and their teachers, and yeah, I really enjoy esoteric research. You can find me on link tree that absidarian and my patreon specializes
in a lot of esoteric research. Monthly, I share a lot of esoteric links and PDFs. Some of that stuff I can't even share on social media just you know, like if you're on Facebook or Instagram, you just can't share the links. So there's a lot of occult and esoteric deep dives links and PDFs and my on my patreon also you can find me across social media and yeah, just looking forward to a good show tonight.
Thank you very much, sir. I will include everybody's links at the bottom. Yeah, so tonight we're going to talk about alchemy. And I was gonna guess kind of like maybe go around the room and ask, you know, what everybody's idea of alchemy is. For me, I'll start with myself. You know, I do wonder if there is like you know, possibly something with actually you know, physical metals and manipulating it.
You know, I'm sure that's you know, possible in some ways, but for myself, I do kind of look at it, I guess, you know, from the occultist angle. I think it's could be so many different things. But I do think sometimes at the center of it it is talking about possible like spiritual change or even a change within somebody's physical body due to magic, you know, having a magical experience. But uh, yeah, I mean, I do think that there's multiple different layers of what alchemy could really be.
Is it the spiritual, is it the physical, or is it actually changing like you know, you know, metals. I do think that sometimes when it is talked about, it could be all three of those or maybe just one or two of them. That's my opinion of alchemy, and it probably really doesn't help, you know, just make some more complicated. But that's how I look at it now. Jen, If you just wanted to get an idea of, like, you know, what do you think about with alchemy and stuff?
Sure, so, I'm actually really glad that you went ahead of me, Nic, because I think that in many ways we kind of build off of each other in our ideas. So as a tantric Buddhist so as a but so as a tonic Buddhist. I agree that there are three layers or a tripartite sort of shift in reality, which also matches metallurgical alchemy. So I would also say that metallurgical alchemy is kind of maybe the base art or
the base science. And then there's the transmutation of the physical body, so that would be like the inner layer. And then the secret layer, you could say, is a transmutation and consciousness. So I think it's all of those three things. And then also with single pointedness, which is something that we talk a lot about. Crowley also talk
to discuss this idea. But it's a Buddhist idea of having a consciousness that pierces the three worlds, so your mind, body, and speech are all together pointed in sort of the great work, I guess you could say.
So, I think it's that is alchemy rather.
Than the individual components or the individual mechanisms, is putting all of it together and then you know, going to another place basically.
So that's sort of my idea.
Thank you for that. It's very interesting. It made me think about a few things. I appreciate that, uh Miter Marx, Robbie Marx.
Yeah, I think it's interesting in regard to the idea of you know, manifesting change as far as you know, the the change of the metamorphosis of the self, the
olchemical rainbow that basically produces those changes. But along with that, you know, and gen you were talking about the macro, the internal, but then you also have the micro or the macro you're talking about the micro, you have the macro aspects of all those symbols being interrelated as far as even within the heavens and using all those elements in coordination with one another to basically reduce down and try to bring forth that you know, medicine to heal
all souls or you know, the philosopher's stone. So it's it's kind of a cosmic as well as an inner working, you know, environmentally and circumstantially, you know.
I I totally agree with that, Robbie.
That was very well side. Thank you so Absintian. I know it was I kind of like your idea of a topic. Where would you like to start it? Where do you think would be important, you know, to start off with this topic of alchemy.
So I was thinking, you know what, the origins I'm pretty interested in the origins of the emerald tablet and also just curious everyone's feedback on that, because there's you know, that's such a big topic and I'm just trying to figure out out the origins of that with the Arabic. Yeah, and you know, just the original language allegedly wasn't Phoenician. I don't know if you guys heard anything about the
original language of what it was written on. You know, you also have the links with Enoch and the Bible preserving the knowledge on on two stone tablets, which is also linked to freemasonry, you know, the pillars. So just I think em Emerald tablet, it's a.
Great Yeah, the Emerald Tablet. I mean, you get into some of the mythology of that and in regard to it being a stone that was handed down from the
heavens with angelic, I've seen angelic language. I've also seen adversely that it was part of the crown of Lucifer that was not loose and basically but you know, and and there's the difference of course between the Emerald Tablet, which was translate it was lost and found and then translated in a Greek school, and then you end up with Isaac Newton with it, you know, basically doing a further translation of it versus this modern emerald tablets of the Culton Colorado.
You know, Okay, I guess I'll take it after that, Thank you, Robbie. So I tend to be a Central Asianist, and that I look at it as I don't really to me, it doesn't matter conceptually where it came from. I think the ideas, if you can translate them into like even a more medieval language, I think that's actually more interesting because then you can sort of that's something
that modern magicians can work with. But obviously I love the mythology aspect because that's a lot of what I also talk about in we're in complement to Robbie and doing his long mythology series. So I feel like I look at it in both ways. But I think that the tontra was remixed in the you know, eighth till twelfth century.
So this idea of the.
Emerald, it's very familiar to me in that in Joe Tisha, which is tontric astrology or regular astrology Indian astrology, the emerald is the stone of bood or mercury, and so obviously if you're listening Bood Buddha, there's a you know, there's a there's a soundscrat element of commonality, which means the speech. So it's like this idea of like putting your full will into the world, like very transmuting the
green into from jade. That's often how it's described in contrac tests, like from jade, which is self luminous, so light cannot pass through, but emerald light can pass through. And so then there's also a relationship between blue and green. So then you start to get this like nebulous thing
where blue green is the color of consciousness. So I think that, like with the emerald tablet, you're looking at something that's perennial perhaps, but that has been reconstituted over several we'll say, oxial shifts in the last two thousand years.
That's my personal ADEA.
Yeah, Osyrus was also emerald green. His color was emerald green.
Yeah. You know, for me, I'm gonna be totally honest with you, really not exactly sure what to think about the whole thing with the emerald tablets. I don't know. I really don't know if it's like a metaphor for something else, you know, or is it actually like you know,
tangible you know. Uh, I just I've never I'm sure it's probably a decent part of the story or the symbolism if you're to probably really understand like what the Eumberald tablets are, But to me, I just felt like that might have been something that I would get lost on instead of like what's actually being said on them over you know, the other stuff. So I never really put too much thought into to that. And again it's
because like I'm not exactly sure. Again, I don't know if I can buy it as a literal, you know, actual tablet or is it something else. But that's my take on it.
Unfortunately, too, there was some mythology about it being from an early Persian writing, but then I've also seen that it was the a letter from Mark Anthony to his mentor Aristotle. I think it was Mark Anthony or maybe it was the Great there. But yeah, it is interesting just in regard to what it is and what it's meant to be in regard to the ideas of alchemy.
I think it's interesting if you think about it conceptually like Nick does, and then more materially like Robbie describes, because in I think in the between those two things, that that secret third thing That's that's what proble.
It is exactly either or but it's sort of both.
Oh yeah, that's why I was saying, I'm sure, uh, you know, actually even knowing what it really is, you know, this is something to figure out and understand. I just haven't spent time on it all right, So, uh, you know, I wanted to kind of ask you, actually, Matt. Maybe I don't know if I asked you in the last one. I know for me, and I don't know if that's
how it happened for you. I think alchemy kind of came up along the lines of me looking into other other stuff, but like you know, and then that interested me in alchemy. I didn't technically go like, oh, I'm gonna look into alchemy today. How did that happen for you to get like into this stuff? Was it just like researching certain things brought you to this and you're really interested in it, or did you like go searching into like this type of stuff right a way when once you heard about it?
So I came upon alchemy with my mystic background and research and also practice in the Eastern Path with you know, yoga and learning about tantra and having a guru and uh so, yeah, I learned, you know, there were some similarities between the Eastern Way and the and the Western Way. So that's how that started. You know, my my my thirst for for understanding and and uh, you know how I understood it in the beginning was basically speeding up
the forces of nature. You know, there's transmutation off your your your spiritual self, so it speeds up your progress. And uh, you know I got into self development in in my twenties with meditation, going to the gym, just eating better. So it was just aligned with just just my practice and my interest getting into spiritual alchemy. It just just made sense to just take take it to a deeper level.
All right. Yeah, Like for me, I think I kind of came across alchemy like going into other stuff, and I got pretty interested into it once I started looking at it differently. Who was like, you know, I know you had mentioned earlier too about being able to talk about like some of like I guess, the lesser known people when it came to alchemy. Did you want to talk about maybe them and like why you found them significant?
Yeah, certainly, so, I mean we talked a little bit about Aluise Smilander and his his his background with their German restcutions a little bit with Prestol that was his his teacher and initiator. But you know, there's so many interesting figures out. I don't know if anyone's heard of Federick girl Galdi, an Italian alchemist in the sixteen hundreds. He declares himself of German origin, but information is not certain. You know, showed up in Venice. But who did he
work with? He worked with Cagliostro to to to come up with the Egyptian rights. So there's a lot of background and history of you know, teachers of some of the movers and shakers of the occult revival during that time, with you know, Saint Germain, Cagliostro, the Golden Ros and Cruisers. We also have Badder friends Vonn Badder who was he was whose teacher was he? He was a student of
Martinize de Pascuali, you know, the Martinist tradition. And one thing I found really interesting was that the Sabbathi z and Jacob Frank groups kept coming up, uh throughout my my deep research in the alchemy and some of the movers and shakers and yeah, they keep coming up with links and initiators and just let me see who I
could talk about. Well, we talked about Moltor last time. JB. Kernin, just to recap, was freemason in the seventeen hundreds, and he was a German opera singer, so you know, he has a background with language and the word. So he was into spiritual alchemy. So one of his students was Molotor. Molotor is linked with the Asiatic Redan and that group is definitely some Sabbathians. So I just found it very interesting.
I would not expect to find, of all any group was that the Sabbathian presence or influence in the alchemy of the seventeen hundreds. So I thought that was really interesting. Uh oh yeah, Samuel Jacob Falk, I'm sorry, this was who initiated uh Cagliostro. Sorry, not GOLDI it was fulk Samuel Jacob Falk initiated Cagliostro and they developed the Egyptian
right UH Cabalis. Is definitely a lot of interrelation between the Kabbala and UH practicing alchemists of that time, which I found was very interesting as well.
Yeah, I as well found a lot of connection between the early ecstatic Cabalis and the alchemists.
Yeah, that's an interesting subject right there.
Well, it makes a lot of sense, right, Like if you're working the sufferer, there's planetary metals, gemstones. Right, It's a map, It's just just it's a It's an oncological map for your experiences. So if someone, if you hear another magician described in experience, you can in your mind you can sort of see it move through the paths into the spheres and then see how far up or where they went with their experience. That's why I think
why people are so drawn to it. And plus it does seem like the tree is in a lot of things, like more than obviously it's in my opinion, I think it's in Catholicism. I think it's in Greek Orthodoxy. I think it's so inherent to so many things. And then when once you recognize those things, you then can realize, oh, I can use it. Even though we may not even speak the same language, we can still relate through the tree these ideas.
Right.
Certainly, it's definitely a universal system.
One thing I did, what kind of want to ask these alchemists that you're you know, also talking about was there anything that like specifically that they might have like kind of we're known, like maybe an opinion or a theory or something that that left like an impact among like the alchemy community.
Yes, certainly. One second. Let me just well, I guess I could talk more about Jacob Bame. Jacob Bam, you know, he was German mystic sixteen hundreds late, you know, late fifteen hundreds into sixteen hundreds, so he had a big influence with spiritual alchemy with some forerunners of his was like Jane Lead, the Christian mystic in England, and Jacob Bame is some of his illustrations that were taken upon by the publisher Frankenburg, Abraham Frankenburg. He was a close associate.
A lot of his illustrations formed a lot of the teachings of later spiritual groups like the Golden Dawn, of all all groups that I wouldn't have expected my research, I was like, wow, there's some some links into Jacob Bame influencing the early teachings and writings of the Golden Dawn. I'm a lot of Roa secrution groups, so a lot of his work, you know, shows up in places you wouldn't even think to see it. So Jacob Bame, I think is one of the m vps if you were looking at the history.
Yeah, I actually don't know too much about that, that man at all. So did you know anything about it?
No, I maybe crossed the name, but I'm unawares.
So yeah, So just real quick with the Emilt Tallett I just shared on the private chap. Yeah, tell you guys, that's basically a translation one of the translations from the sixteenth hundreds. Why, I think it's important because you know, things get lost with the telephone game. So I thought it was important to source the original or close to the original writings or translations to get the essence of the message. And you could see it in that in
that early translation. This was he tried to translate it from the Phoenician, you know, so that and that his theory. This was Wilhelm Christoph Kriegsman sixteen thirty three to sixteen seventy nine. I believe that the original Emerald tablet was written in Phoenician. So he did an amazing translation and you'll see, you'll see the essence from that. But so
Jacob Bame, Yeah, so Jacob Bam. He was a really big Christian mystic and the philosopher's stone to him was finding Christ in the center, this center if you're being. And this shows up with the letter mysticism of like JB. Kernin I leuis mylander. It's the letter mysticism, which is which is a big top topic in it in itself, but it's related to the Hermetic tradition, you know, Hermes, you know, with with letters and language and the word so that so you know, that's that's a big link
to the spiritual alchemy, is the letter mysticism. And speaking of you know, the letter mysticism, hermeis if you take if you look at Hermes for example, Hermes, you know, and then you look at the hiram of of you know, the Freemo Masonic tradition. If you take away the vowels, you get the root h r M Herms. You know that, you know when you take out the vowels. So that's like that's some some information there. So I saw some insights with the letter mysticism, is what I'm trying to say.
I would I would find some key insights into the spiritual alchemy by study mean, you know, names and and and the letters and the relationship between the vowels and the consonants. So Jacob Bain was into that, and you know it continued with JB. Kernan who taught alphabet mysticism. You know, the power of you know, intne in vowels or consonants and different parts of your body until you get like a Q, you know, a spiritual Q. It's
like you know, theorgy. You know, it's just communion with the divine until you get a signed to the next step and then you keep you know, you keep keep going with spiritual progress like that. So that's what they taught basically. That's how it's It's linked to the letter mysticism and a really cool aspect of spiritual alchemy. If if you ask me.
Now, when you take the intonation of the vowels, they were generally looked at as they could him. And if you go back to Egypt, it was actually the hymn of Osiris, which later you know, influenced the singing spheres of Pythagoras.
Very cool.
M Well, I'll just offer this quickly, is that in in countrac Buddhism we well also this is also true for Shruvig, So I'll say that, but.
We have the spheres are inside of us.
I know this is also a cabalistic idea, especially later Kabala, but the octivation of the three primary spheres, so what would be the crown, the throat, and the heart center, which is kind of an inverted sphere in our in our consumption anyway, So to activate those red, white, and blue or white excuse me, white, red, and blue in that order, that would be you say the bija. But then there's also a visualization of the bija, which is
the syllable that goes along with the recitation. So I think that's really interesting and one of the the whole one of the reasons why they sort of created contract Buddhism was to purify the sandscript from the original data. Is like it's to purify it into a new ritual language. So one of the reasons why I think it's it starts to differ is this idea that you talk about Robbie with Nimrod and like how the languages sort of shifted and they kind of moved away from each other.
But then there's these other traditions that are like, let's see what we can do, let's play with the language and then like remake it into our own liturgical things. So that's sort of what I was reminded of when you were speaking well.
And also within ritual magic, you have words that go
back to these original deities. And at one point even they went to the Sibling Prophecy prophet tests and asked if they should re paying those names or if they should change them, and she said to keep the ancient names because the intonation of those names are what basically inflected and brought forth, you know, the power and and those like you were saying jen as far as those internal spheres being within you, yeah, you're definitely activating different
points within your body through these different letters. And then the underground city that they found there over in Phoenicia that goes you know, the multiple levels underground, like you know, twenty thirty levels underground. There's one specific room in that city that has a chamber that you can put your head in and it's made just at that right height and you base it with the humming of the e vow. You can activate a spiritual experience in that chamber just
by sticking your head. It's like a is in a chamber, you know. So it's interesting how through time, you know, we've always sought out these ways to elevate the consciousness through you know, the machine that is the body.
Well one hundred percent.
And it's so interesting too because in one of our one of the so after you sort of practice Buddhism contract prism for a while, you then may get a practice where you have to hold what is called a ganta or a bell and so but this is a little more advanced. But I mean that it's interesting to think about that. The bell is also a euphemism for the female consort, but it's it's not about sex, like
Nick always says this. It's like just because a magician talks about sex, doesn't mean that's what it's about, right, It's just a metaphor. So that's what that's what the bell is. It's like it's the consort, but it's also the sound. So it's like something else besides yourself, besides your own consciousness, pervading outward into the world and also coming towards.
You, like an inter exchange.
Exactly exactly the dialectrical and or separate hol right.
Right, Yeah, I definitely think there's something behind with vibrating those like even in a lesser ritual of the Pentagram and you know, the hexagram and all, you know, all those rituals that like the Golden Dorm or the Oto will use, they always have you vibrate you know, certain god names, and they like, really Strawley really stressed doing that. It's almost like exhaustion, you know, So you know, I figured there was something behind that with that, I don't know,
you know. And again, like even even with mantras sometimes I know, you know, people the way they do mantras, I would be like it's almost like I feel like you're just kind of like over and over again, just vibrating the same sort of thing throughout your body. I would wonder that's got to do something to you, right, Yeah, yeah, well that's.
I mean, that's like your beginner contric practice is like the recitation of names. So you do the Nama jappas, and then you also do the which are usually one hundred and eight in number, which may sound odd to the Western magician, but if you think about it, seventy two is nine and one oh eight is also nine, so there's clearly an inter relationship there, right, And then your beads are also one hundred and eight usually most of the time, maybe not always. And then then after
you graduate, you start doing the syllables. So that's exactly what Nick said. It's like you're cycling through them and you want to do as many rotations on the rosary as possible, and sometimes you have to do hundreds of thousands of recitations before you can graduate sort of move up the ladder or whatever. So yeah, it's like it to do it to exhaustion is actually considered to be really powerful for your lungs because the metaphor they give is the air is like a wind horse. It's like
a Tibetan wind horse. So it's like a horse that flies on the wind. And so when you're doing it properly, there's supposed to be like a clicking sound up through your lungs, and then it kind of clicks, and that's considered to be like the whos of the horse riding on the wind, So you're sturgling and channeling it through.
Yeah, can I just add up about you know, we're basically talking about mystical concentration, right, So in the yoga traditions, there's three layers of the mystical concentration. Dhurana is concentration is if you're able to hold your mind and concentrate on a subject for twelve seconds. And then the second
stage is danana, which means meditation. It equals to twelve durana's times twelve seconds, which is one hundred and forty four seconds, meaning if be able to concentrate on a subject or image or mantra for one hundred and forty for one hundred and forty four seconds without in mind wandering, that's jana. No, that's meditation. And then the third stage it's called samadi, which is twelve djananas times one hundred and forty four seconds, which equals twenty eight minutes and
forty eight seconds. That means you attain somebodi. If you're able to concentrate on something for twenty eight minutes, that's that's an initiate. That's an adept right, that's not a neo fighter or a low level someone just starting off with the wandering mind, the monkey mind. So I thought that was an interesting key insight there.
Yeah, yeah, And in Samadi states are quite interesting.
In regard to.
The amount of information that the body is able to intake and the equitable flow between both sides and entering into a state of of you know, seeing the whole negative and positive as both positive and negative.
It's uh yeah, well it's interesting or abi that you say that, because Samadi fire is in tantra, this is specifically a contric thing.
But Samadi fire is heatless, right, It's a pristine wisdom fire. So it's a heatless fire, very alchemical, but it also has that quality of heat like tumo, like building your body respiration and you're breathing, so you're breathing goes up and it's however, many counts. I mean, I'm not as Ouggen practitioner, but yeah, they do this and they will. And so I think even the idea of firewalking, like when you see like Taipusam or one of the festivals devoted to Shiva or one of his sons, you will
see a lot of the coal walking and firewalking. And Kashiva has a nature of agony, that nature of fire from one of his faces. So I think that that is is a lot. It's like can you overcome You have to overcome an element of yourself. So there's like three layers of somebodi as well. So I think that's also relational to like how the three worlds or the three properties of matter, the three you know, like ice, water,
and vapor. Like, I think it's all it's that's very interrelated to like what somebody is and why it's so hard to sort of describe it across traditions because I think it's so complicated and there's different stages of it. So what it appears from the outside observer is not exactly maybe pure somebody, but there's like a you know, a partiality or something, but the other person doesn't necessarily understand that there's multiple components.
Thank you, Jim, any uh anything anybody wanted to talk about and bring up specifically? Anything else? What else did you?
Uh?
Absiderian?
So yeah, the stages of alchemy with with the colors. I thought that was interesting. The colors albedo, which is white, rubetto red and then I'm sorry, it starts with negretto, black, Alberto white, then rubetto red. So you got black, white, and red, you know, like black Saturn, the dark knighted soul, the lead white you know, purification related to the moon,
and then red. You know, what has to do with the blood, and I thought it was interesting in the correlation with Mylanders spiritual alchemy and which was taught throughout the tradition, that there was three baptisms. There was the baptism of water in the beginning, the beginning of the spiritual life, your your entrance into connecting with the astralight with water, spiritual dreams, the begining of a new life.
Then you had the baptism of blood, your transmutation of the end of the body from you know, the electromagnetic you know currency in your blood. It's really powerful. And then lastly baptism by fire, which is one attains the word you know, you're so yeah. So those are the three baptisms that many mystics allude to in their writings, like Jane Jane Lead alludes to it JB. Kernan, But Mylander is one of the most popular teachers in modern times of of this this aspect of the spiritual alchemy.
The three baptisms. When you trace that back, you actually see that the mystery schools, the Frygian mystery schools, coming right all the way up to Mithras or Mythris. Basically, those are the three baptisms through the various stages of initiation that you you know, proceed through as well.
I also think it's interesting that some of the alchemists like them, especially the medieval, but then the later more practical practical we'll call them practical magicians, who were looking at the older alchemy, they couldn't decide the order like that. They some of them had to slight disagreements in the order. And then also some people added the citronaitis or the fourth sort of golden thing, and then they couldn't decide if that went between black and red or red and black,
or white and red. And so I think there's something really interesting there because in tantra We, the saying is is that red always transmutes into gold in terms of iconography, in terms of like what I if a deity is pictured like that. So I'll give an example like Vadrioghini. Sometimes she is understood not necessarily depicted as gold, but she is understood as gold even though she's depicted as red. So we always like know that it's all is the
transformation from from right into gold. But it's interesting that they couldn't decide and then all the different the idea of the different names like Christianity is a more of a three name tradition, and then Judaism they say, is like the fore name the i Hovah.
That's so it's like the fore name tradition.
So everybody kind of has these disagreements theologically of like how many stages there are, how many names there are?
Well, And it's interesting, you know when you read and I've read some Asian alchemists in China that you know, there's the the metaphysical idea of doing this within yourself to turn to fashion your spirit into the idea of
the pure you know, gold per se. But then you know you have the the other aspect where they're physically trying to make this medicine to extend their life, to cure their ills, to do and you know when when you go from the negreto being the black the primum materia, and then you burn it off, you purify it, you separate out the oils from the salts through the white vase, and then you take the oils and that you've that you've you know, drawn out of this uh this uh
negreto through purification, and you take those oils and you
recrystallize them into you know, the Philosopher's Stone. So you know, there's been this idea of it being something to and like Cagliostro as far as the mythos of you know, this guy walking through Europe, who was it Edward Bulward Lytton that that wrote that book about him that you know, he's basically popping up hundreds of years, but he you know, and he had given somebody a small piece of the red Stone, you know that he and refined and you just get these stories, you know, and it's the uh,
the physical material aspects of you know, prolonging the life versus the internal work of like the Kristin Rosenkrutz, basically working to achieve that purity of the pure Christ within themselves.
You know. Yeah, No, I totally agree with you, Robbie. I think that the thing is with Chinese alchemy is that was in particular. But I think that Daoism is sort of an indigenous dharma. That's sort of how I've been looking at it. And I think a lot of the Tibet writers would are not excusing autist writers. I think many of the Chinese writers would agree. Now there
was there contention, is it the same thing exactly? No, But I think that there is enough of a dialogue, enough of an understanding that, yeah, Daoism is kind of a novel dharma. So I think that there are some Daoists who were talking about like the physical alchemical or like medicine making stage. Obviously Quicksilver has a lot to do with that. Cinemar and like, yeah, yeah, one hundred percent of especially for Chinese, which is interesting because Gava lead mars like you not lead mars.
Read.
It's just there's something very it's cinnebar is so potent and toxic.
But then they're obviously just like fire right, it's like very transformative, very transmutational, but just a little bit too much heat burns you exactly.
Yeah, but yeah, there's something that is definitely talking about, like the three works at the same time, like doing what while you're doing the medicine making maybe in your consciousness, you're also performing the inner ritual and then in the secret third thing, which is that you're doing it both together, right, then you're creating whatever, like exactly.
Exactly, jin something I wanted to ask you, and then I was gonna maybe ask Ebsidian and I know that's Robbie, but I wanted to ask you specifically because of being more you know, I think your Eastern philosophy and stuff, can you see I mean for me, and I'm not necessarily saying it's the same thing for you, which just I know you've been into this stuff for a while.
For me, uh, I guess from just you know, looking at some stuff or different styles and maybe because of like again, you know, sometimes I say, I do think when you have certain experiences, you can kind of see, like see what's being said in different artistic languages in a way you can kind of like you have an idea.
I think, are you able to like see sometimes like the same thing maybe being expressed, but just differently due to the artistic styles of like how the difference between Western and Eastern?
This is a really great question, And I actually came up the other day with Todd and so I think, I mean, I can now.
So I think that when you've had certain.
Experiences, like obviously not waking experiences, will say, but maybe more magical experiences, you you get you have a maybe a fundamental grasp of what the contours of those things are. So then it becomes much more noticeable in iconography later on. But then also you have to remember that when I did the original Contra series with you, Nick is that one of my reasons was because when you would talk about Kabbala in your early Reject episodes, I would understand
what you were talking about. But in my own conceptualization.
That's, yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at it. I assume just you know, maybe because are the things I know you've studied that you're into, that you might be able to see that because I will say, like if you wanted to go look at certain people's like Heinrich Kohnrath or well, Michael Maher didn't make his emblems, I forgot the matheas something made him for him. You know, stuff that Robert Flood's done, you know, very different style of like all chemical imagery than you would see, like,
you know, somewhere else. But I do think if you kind of understand like certain things, you can see the same shit being said. I think, like I think with like a lot of the art that I think you show on Twitter, I think that is like, besides it being very detailed and you know, symbolic, you have in my opinion, a hell of a lot more colors being used, which then I think that starts to play in other maybe specific or you know, or just adds to it. So like for me, I can kind of almost see
like this stuff being said. It's just some have different ways of being a little bit more specific or just different styles, you know. But from looking at both, I think I can you know, I can see a lot of the same thing.
There's an idea in contra that if you understand seventy percent of the image at least conceptually, like have that kind of magic or like we'll say experiential magical experiences or knowledge by true knowledge, you have a seventy percent understanding of most things. Now what you understand like one hundred percent. That's the same way I am with like other things, like yeah, I have a degree of understanding, but it's it's imperfect.
But the more I learn, the more I'm like.
Oh, okay, this actually goes quite well together.
This actually makes a lot of sense.
So you sort of have to push the force of like your perception along and or of like make sure that you're not sticking to the old things, not because they're not good necessarily, but you're not applying that other way of thinking, the other systemic thinking to the new thing. So that is a challenge that I've had sort of like being like, okay, well they don't view it exactly the same, but that's okay because the meaning is very similar.
Well, and interestingly, I think that one of the things that the resecructions did do, being highly interested in Oriental philosophy, was they tried to take all of these philosophies and reduce them down into some sort of a single you know, like system.
Sorry, Nick, if you want to go, okay, well, I just want to say, yeah, there's definitely that the case, Robbie, Like you can see it in Vietnam.
I think really particularly with the early Jesuits and like the sixteen hundreds they were in Vietnam.
The first ones were French Jesuits.
They changed the alphabet into the latinized alphabet Freese, and obviously then you see these sort of other religions developing that are synthetic, meaning not necessarily that they're fake, but
that they are synthesized. Confucianism, Buddhism, Christianity altogether, like Zaudai that's the eye and that's sort of like the eye of Jupiter, and it's like the singles is exactly like the money I but you know, their religion is very syncretic, but it's also very Catholic and then also very Rosicrucian.
So I think that you definitely have.
And then the theosophy in India, I mean, that was so popular right from the beginning of the very origins of theosophy. I think he could even argument that it partly developed in India, and then the Indians obviously took the ideas and sort of made it their own, like with the Kalki Purana, which is discredited sort of Piranha that was much later. But I just think, yeah, I think that there is a quest to find the perennial system.
I don't know if that's fruitful, but you know what, do I know it well?
And it's interesting just how every region would have its own universal kind of understanding based on where they were and the environment they were in and the things they were participating, and that leads to those individuated systems, you know, like holistically, you know, and then the conglomerates, as you know, populations grew and those conglomerate elements started to come together
and you see the ideas washing back and forth. You know, with the translations of the subtuagent and bringing the Eastern text to the West, and it's you know, a very fract line kind of you know, manifestation that we kind of subside within a very kaleidoscopic you could say, yeah.
I knew Nick would like that because it's all about the eyes, right, yeah. Yeah, But even the you know, even Sanskrit has a relationship with Phoenician, and even see like the times where they would turn the letter ever so slightly and then you look at the Hebrew version and then the letter is like turned ever so slightly. So either someone's memory was imperfect or there is like a cultural shift that is physically manifested in the letter.
So that's also like something else.
But I agree with you Robbie, like there seems to be a lot more in common between traditions than actually people understand there to be. But I think that the outer densities, the outer temple level, even the inner temple level, I think that screws up people's heads a lot.
Like they get very dogmatic, very entrenched.
Maybe I often call it making kleipas or making skandas. They're sort of concretizing, cementing what they think of the world in these very limited perceptions, right yeah, I think, but I think that the in the more consciousness layer, that more secret layer, I think that we are kind of breaking through like the dogma, and then you're able to see. Okay, this is so similar, like even when they're talking about the degradation between like black and then
the reddening process and then the purifying process. Like Buddhist color magic. I mean, Buddhist color magic is all about this, right, Like it's the blue to the white, to the red, to the yellow and to the green, so or different mondolas have it in different order, just like the medieval alchemists can really.
Decide on it, right, right, so you have so.
I think that there is something. It's just like how.
You agree that or where you want to arrive.
I think that's the biggest disagreement, Like where you want to go with it seems to be like the biggest.
Well I think like even if maybe it just this
could even maybe just be from your regular understanding. But like sometimes I think if you understand maybe some of the secrets behind, like why certain things are used for like symbolism or imagery, you start getting ideas why other things are being used, you know, like again, like you know, different birds will be used just because of maybe different you know, what's available or what's around in those people's eyesight, or could it be that they actually have something in
common that is you know, special, a different you know, I think even just like understanding, maybe stuff like that could even like show you how maybe sometimes art has the same message, but it's just using different images to do it.
Yea, Yeah, within the whole art subject. You know, the colors, they have effect on the psyche depending on how you use the colors, contrast the colors.
You know.
It's something that I actively play with as as an artist, you know, And and I am doing a sort of storytelling alchemy, you know, through the creation of the piece of art and the colors that I use to interplay, you know, and even sometimes you know, if I'm hired to do like I just hired to do both piece and basically I found the coordinating colors of thought and basically built the whole piece around, you know, the gray,
yellow and the purple. So it's you know, these these different and you know, I'm doing it more from a playful aspect, but you know, it all depends on you know how you're going to use it, and and but it does affect the psyche, you know for.
Sure, for sure.
Absodarian, Yeah, you're definitely chiming.
Uh.
You're speaking about birds that I wanted to discuss, the birds of alchemy, you know, those those are traditionally signed sign posts of progress along the way, you know, the black crow, you know, earlier stages, the black the white swan. I've had experience with that, and so these are some some some symbols that are universal. But I do want to speak on something you mentioned. If the different systems with the Eastern and West are the same, I wouldn't
say that they're the same. They're similar. There's some similarities, but there's there's some stark differences. You know, I've I've I've learned. So you know, for example, the in the East with Nadan and then the Taoists practice with the microcosmic, they're not doing that in the in the Western tradition with with spiritual alchemy. You know. So just so there's
some some subtle differences. There's some similarities on on on the practice or the intention of breath, you know, the focus on concentration, morality, you know, a lot of things that lead up to the great work that you need
to facilitate the progress. But there are some differences, you know, whether in Kundalini yoga using a different channel, a nerve channel than in some of the Western traditions, some of the mystic work, they're using a different channel than the shushman, you know, the middle channel, so you know, there's different nerves going up the spine. So there are some subtle differences that between the East and the West. You know.
It's not that it's one's better or you know or not, but it's it's it's important to learn and understand that you know, these systems of practice will fit the environment of where where it was you know, originated from and you know, and I think that's important as well.
Thank you. Yeah, I mean there's obvious a lot of Ian Stark differences. When I was talking about it before, I was really thinking more of like the artistic angle, you know, when people like do it like a lot of art, like is there an alchemist, you know, use a lot of art to try to display stuff. But yeah, there's definitely some huge differences between both for sure.
M H.
Well, I'll just add that I think I think I I understand what Nicks saying because it's it's very like, it's very referential to my my specific Twitter and then how I sort of look at the the colors and through also Cabala, So I'm using both systems at the same time. So I think that it's it's interesting because I find it to be very similar. I don't think that they're the same. Obviously, I preference Vadriana. That's because I think that's the best. That's my personal opinion and
that's also what I practice. So but I also think that there's a lot of similarity. I think that the similarities are very strong. And I think there is a degradation in all systems that has happened. That's very obvious also to me. And I just think that we're all doing the best we can, putting it back together as the best we can, but also following if we choose
to follow a tradition or not. And so yeah, I think it's useful comparative that has sort of comparative and but not taking necessarily a skeptical or a pro approach, like you're looking at it and oh this actively similar, it's actually different. Yeah, that's sort of how I look at it.
Got it. I'd like to just talk about some of the similarities. I like to references the universal tools of sulfur, mercury and salt. That's a good universal that's found in all traditions, right just to dificult. It's it has to do my understanding, will, intention, and your vital force. So that's direction engine fuel. So sulfur is your will, right, your your soul, mercury is your intention, has to do with your spirit, and salt is your vitality or your structure,
has to do with your body. So that's just this and that's universal. Right. So you have the salt, mercury, salt, salt, sulfur mercury, you have gin ki and shen, you have Brahmha Vishnu Shiva, you have Setva Rogers Thomas, you have father son, holy spirit. So all these things. To me, that's that's the universal forms of alchemy.
That's to make me think about I think there's stuff like that being shown in them. A novel degree in the O t O hows to think about that. I don't know why. It just made me think about that now when you're talking about this stuff.
So, so is this a good time. We're gonna try to produce the Philosopher's Stone at this point. Yeah, so who's who's up first?
Right?
Oh boy? Do you think that Do.
You think that's the the Philosopher's Stone or do you think that's like are you any of you here into twin peaks? I'm probably probably Do you ever think that's? Like? What the do you ever think that's what they're talking about with that, like the piece of the ring that kind of fits the table, Like I've always wondered if that was like something like a reference to like this the Philosopher's Stone or that tablish because it is like I think a green table that it's uh, it fits.
I can't remember. I've always no, I just always wondered about if there was a connection with that. I think.
So I think even like the Trinity, like well, obviously I don't envision the Trinity like sheep I, Brahma Vishnu, but you know there is something or maybe a diead or even a monad like I. I think that the emerald is like how to get there through our own eyes?
That's what I'll say about that.
So I think that it is in that sequence, Nick, But you know, I think it's very much up to our perception, our interpretation of that scene. And I think that's what a lot of twin peaks is because a lot of people know it's a fault, but people can never decide exactly what is it.
Well, you know the difference between a cult and the religion. So basically, if if a cult hangs around for five hundred years, they're declared religion, that's true. Yeah, So if.
It it's just widely accepted, I mean at that point, it's really yeah, it's really good. Was there anything else Absodarian that you would like to maybe touch on. We've got a little bit more time if you want, maybe maybe let me see.
Uh, you know, we we talked about a lot. Uh. I think we covered a lot. I mean we don't really talk about Paracelsus.
But I was just gonna say it's important to.
Talk he is.
He is, you know, I like talking about.
Like like one of his quotes is alchemy is the gentle accelerator, acceleration of growth through the use of the fire of nature. So he's known as a fire philosopher. But he was really interesting character. I thought he's worthy of discussion or just seeing some more esoteric aspects of his uh, you know, his teachings.
And it's interesting with Paracelsus how he goes through. You know, you have the alchemy of the metals, you have the alchemy of the planets, you have the alchemy within the self. You have basically, you know, I've seen in several places
there's seven forms of alchemy. Even getting into the early talk of Lucifer in you know, the heavens in that space of pured you know, refined space with no decay, that he was basically doing a cosmic alchemy and basically you know, misused it and and that was his fall.
But but Paracelsus, just in regard to the planetary aspects, going back to the Emerald tablet, you know, as far as the sun is its father and the moon is its mother, and it talks about you know, basically being in the belly and just stating and but Paracelsus, you know, talking about how all the metals come out of gold and how they can all return to gold. It's just you know, interesting philosophically.
There's a lot of Taoist stories Robbie like that. I mean, I have I have read Paracelsus, but it's not something I'm like talking about or thinking about, but I think that in my memory it's all sort of coving bag distilling. But there's a lot of Daoist attacks that are very similar to this, and even the origin story because I'm preparing to do a show with Nick and JJ on sort of a Taoist alchemy. And so the Red Emperor, So if Paracelsus is a fire philosopher, the Red Emperor
of Chinese cosmology, he is Shenong. So he's the guy who brings like medicine, agriculture and even in fact, the first Chinese herbal medicine book is called the Shenong bansaal so the it's called Shenong's Herbal So it's like the three thousand year old text that it was supposedly given to them by this mythical giant oxhorn to emperor who's read and sits in the south.
So, oh, do you want to do you want to talk more? Do you want me to just wrap it up there? You think, I don't know, how do you? I mean, if you want to talk at that guy, we could go on for a while too.
Yeah, I mean, I just I just want to touch on one one interesting esoteric aspect of Paracelsus UH with his alphabet of the Magi. He brought that back with letter mysticism. And if you're familiar with Cagliastro, when he addressed one of one of his most famous events was
addressing the Masons during the which convention. It was the Masonic Convention of seventeen eighty five, which he did some demonstrations because you know, they were they were really skeptical of this Cagliastro character, but then he ended up blowing them away with what his demonstrations and his predictions. He predicted a lot, but the tie in there was the
letter mysticism. You know. He he showed them the alphabet of the Magi and he kind of laughed at them with how they explain the word INR I n R I. You know know I come from Judea. I have passed through Nazareth led by Raphael. I'm the tribe of Judah. He said, gentlemen, how such stupid nonsense to be accepted
by intelligent Frenchmen. And then he goes on to give the true meaning of it using the UH, the Magi language of you know, the I and our I and it has to do with alchemy, you know, the Hermetic principles, the two principles, the union of polarities, and you know the third wonderful thing. So it's a really interesting time there with Paracelsus and Cagliastro.
I'll just add this quickly that I actually find it really fascinating how both of you sort of referenced the idea of this, like the sun is at the sun, so you have but it's from mercury. It's from mercury that the sun, right, right, So but it is it is kind of the marriage and then but it's it's hoe to tiperth. Yeah, I find that so fascinating because you see it in many religions.
Well, and I think with Paracelsus he even tells you that they have switched the metals to basically accult the true practice. So you know, if you become familiar with the concepts, ideas and you can see the truisms within them, then you will come to the realization that indeed mercury is the sun.
You know, that's interesting. I remember Rudolph Steiner talked about something similar with astrology and how you know, traditionally Mercury was swapped with Venus, and that opened up an interesting rabbit hole. When I went back and studied some of the CIRT information, especially with my Lucifer Unveiled the series, I went pretty pretty deep into that topic and how the planets were occulted as.
Well, And I would imagine that depending upon the system, they were occulted in different ways. So depending on the system that you're looking at, you have to somehow divine the key to be able to unlock the system.
Correct. You know where I got the key Kabbala the four worlds. You just use the four worlds and you see your placement on the tree whichever subject you're on, and there's a lot of cabalistic keys that unlock Rudolph Steiner's work. Some of it sounds fantastic on you know when you when you first read it or whatnot, but then you look at it, you know, from the cabalistic perspective, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
I love Steiner's work.
Yeah, definitely, I could see him being influenced by.
Oh he was one hundred, there's like no, oh.
Yeah, yeah, definitely definitely he uh and JB. Kernan was another influence we have evidence that he plagiarized from JB. Kerinnin didn't give credit on some of his lectures, which it's coming out in the second Mylanders book. It's really interesting.
It's going to talk about Rudolph Steiner. You know, we put him on the pedestal, but you know he's a great teacher for you know what he what he shared, but he's still you know, he presented some ideas as his as his own that you know, we learned it really wasn't his ideas one hundred percent, which is and a lot of it comes from Mylander's background and especially JB. Kernan, like word for word some of his letter mysticism teachings.
Sorry, I just want to say this one thing about the planet's being occulted, because I think it's so interesting that the idea was brought up because it is sort of understood to be like that in TNTRA, where like the certain deities that are placed supernal to the planet are stars or like greater than the stars, so the stars actually are supernal to the grajas are supernal to the planets. So I think that's interesting because we are much more in a planetary culture like we we are
names of the week. I mean it's we really revolve around the planets. And then also that idea is that they can shift, and I think this is true for like the jets erratic astrology, like the the ideas that the actually the sphere, the planetary nature of the sphere changes in different sort of turnings of the wheel and so and like what Robbie was saying, like what is the key to use? Well like and so some of the tuns crop sees there's like a sixty year cycle,
there's a seventy year cycle. And some of the you know, like the very online Indian Twitter guys, they'll use like these really weird vedic calculations and make like and say, oh the Kelly goes like a million years old, But when you use the contric calculation, it's actually quite short periods of time.
Like who do you listen to? Why do you listen to it? And so yeah, that's something that I'm really fascinated.
There's like haulting on the planets and how they work because there is a shift, like there's a shifting nature of them, so you have to also sort of account for that.
So the uh Me and Jen are about to do a series on the Books of Enoch. But the Books of Enoch they go into the different gates and the different planets and how the planets move and interact with one another, and the season, and then it also corresponds all the miscellaneous angelic forces that associate with those different houses, seasons, planets, gates, et cetera. It's it's a quite interesting calendar.
So this is really interesting. Sorry, Nick, this is a really interesting.
Robbie, because honestly, it's when you brought the idea to me, I was like, oh, this sounds like so much like Chalco Sambara, like like a very high level tontric text where he's talking about like oh, there's odiot comes in on this portal and it's depicted in this way, and then there's this thing and he's standing on this like these animal gods and this is the reason why. And I was like, oh my god, Like, the Book of Enoch is kind of like a version.
Maybe not one to one, but there's right, there's clearly like yeah.
A system there that makes total sense, Like yeah, yeah, thank you.
All right, Uh, I guess we'll just wrap it up the other right.
Sure, it's good minute, eleven minutes and eleven seconds.
Oh nice, all right, thank you very much, Absdentian for coming on. That was actually, you know, it was a fun It was a fun hour and fifteen minute you know, less than that with the intro, uh you know, show very well, uh, well done. We talked about a lot of different things. I think it was just interesting stuff when it comes to alchemy real quick before we wrap it up, Jin, do you want to plug yourself one more time?
Sure? Just follow me on Twitter at Wukong Reborn or at Threshold Saints also an ins same Threshold Saints. And yeah, you can just see what I'm up to, always doing something. And I have a space live space on Saturday, and I will be on several more quite a few more episodes.
Of Rejux in the near future. So see and yeah, subscribe and likes the show.
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And mister Marx, thank you again. You want everybody, I want to let everybody know where they can find all the work that you've done on other people's shows.
Yeah, and I just want to say thanks for having me on. It's always a great conversation. This is like some really fun stuff. And like you're saying, this is a nice break for me. So yeah, if you want to find my stuff, my artwork, my Twitter, Instagram, et cetera, et cetera, you can go to my link tree, which is our m A r X R Marx at link tree and then I'll pull up everything I got awesome.
Thank you very much again, sir. I always love having you on and Absidarian let everybody know again where they can fund your stuff.
Yes, well, thanks again, gentlemen, it's been a pleasure. You guys can find my work on linktree, Apsidaren. At linktree you'll find all my links their social media, Patreon and research links there.
Thank you of course, and thank you for coming on, sir. And yeah, I'm pretty sure we'll have more discussions going forward. Thank you all again for coming on tonight. Everybody's links are in the bottom so you can check out all their work. And until the next one, everybody be well later