NYCC ‘24 INTERVIEW-A-THON: Griffin Sheridan & Ethan Parker

Hey, this is Griffin Sheridan. And Ethan S. Parker. And Bob Quinn. And we are the creative team behind the Image Comics epic fantasy horror, Kill Your Darlings. And you are listening to the Oblivion Bar podcast. Welcome to the Oblivion Bar podcast with your host Chris Hacker and Aaron Knowles. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 169 of the Oblivion Bar podcast.

I am your Francine-wielding traumatized kid Chris Hacker and joining me is my one-eyed Australian Ella pig, my co-host and BFF Aaron Knowles. Blimey, we need the princess to save us all. Welcome everybody to day four of our interview-a-thon or GuessFest, where we are joined by the two co-writers of the Eiser nominated fantasy series, Kill Your Darlings. We were joined by Griffin Sheridan and Ethan S Parker Aaron. Hell yeah. What are those guys? Those guys are awesome.

What a conversation we had with these two gentlemen here. most people will know by now that we actually talked to these guys right before the first issue back in September of last year. And they were joined by Bob Quinn, the artist on the series. This is a great book. Everybody. I know I've already said this previously, both on social media and here on the show, but, I say it here in this conversation once again, Kill Your Darlings issue one was my favorite single issue of 2023. It was close.

There were a couple of really good single issues out last year, but I will say the first issue of Kill Your Darlings is one of those books that I feel like I could just hand anybody. Whether you're a long time comic fan or you just started reading, just, whether you are in for the story or you're in for the art by Bob, it's just, great. It's so good. It's phenomenal.

The coloring, the story, it's all just, it is a, it is a story that you can start off with in the con when you intro into comics or it's one for readers that have been reading comics for years. It's one of those ones that just anybody can pick up. And Chris, I think this is one that I can say much like you and several books that you have. This is one that I can recommend to a ton of people and they'll totally dig it from the first page.

Yeah. And I feel like it should be said also that, and I said this in our previous episode, I'm going to say it again, both Aaron and I are friends with Griffin and Ethan. we were friends before they started writing comics, but They have just fully evolved into their writing form now. And we say here in the conversation, this is an Iser nominated series now, which is still so crazy to think about. I'm so again, I'm just very proud of these two for being able to accomplish that.

Again, it is so cool to have them on today because we go full spoilers. Everybody. If you have read killer darlings, all eight issues of the series, this will be a fun conversation to listen to because we peel back a lot of layers like in Shrek, right? Aaron layers, like ogres, parfaits, onions. Yeah, they all have layers. They all have layers. But we'll have that conversation here in just a moment. Everybody, once again, we are at day four of Interviewathon or... GuessFest!

So Aaron and I are probably, if we haven't already lost our minds at New York Comic Con, we are on our way. But we're obviously talking to you from the past. So hopefully everybody enjoys this conversation with both Ethan and Griffin. Before we get there though... Aaron, will you please tell the people how they can support the Oblivion Bar podcast? Absolutely. If you want to support the Oblivion Bar podcast, consider checking out our Patreon for your support.

can gain access to a bonus episode each week called The Grid. A behind the scenes look at how we prepare each episode with episode transcripts and Patreon polls and a whole bunch of exclusive other goodies. You get a ton of stuff for being a Patreon member. Give it a shot with a seven day free trial at patreon.com forward slash oblivion bar pod or check out the link in our show notes. Check it out. It's in the show notes right now.

We're going to stop talking everybody here so you can hear us talk over there with Griffin and Ethan. So let's go and get in this conversation with Griffin Sheridan and Ethan S Parker.

And now, this week's special guest. Joining us today are the Eisner nominated co-writers of the Image Comics series, Kill Your Darlings with artist Bob Quinn and letterer John J Hill. It is my pleasure to welcome back both Griffin Sheridan and Ethan S Parker onto the Oblivion Bar podcast. Woo, yeah. Thank you. man. Lovely to be here again. Thank you, Chris, Aaron. We're stoked to be here, fellas. Yes, thank you both so much for being here.

We were just talking about this right before we started recording that we had you guys both on Previously, I think it was September of last year. Aaron was not present for this one, but damn it. He had to be here for this one because he was excited to talk about all things. Kill your darlings. And there has been so much that has happened since. mean, it was it's been just over a year since that time. Yeah. And I have read it thrice since then. my goodness. Thank you. Yes. A lot has happened.

The rest of the book came out. That was pretty good. Yeah. We lost our minds writing issue eight, every issue, but issue eight, especially, of trade came out very good. We're in a space now that I think it never felt like we would actually reach. Like it felt like the book would never be fully out and that the work on it would be done and that people would have opinions of it like that. And we're in purely hypothetical space. This is all not supposed to happen, but we're here.

Would you describe it as like a layer of hell where you're just like, you know, perpetually waiting for the next issue to come out? Yeah, for sure. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when like it became very real with like we had a printing error on issue three. And so it was kind of like one error was like the realization of like Who knows? Who fucking knows? Maybe we'll hit another goddamn pandemic and it'll fucking take a million years for the rest of the book to come out. Who knows?

Ethan, Griffith was just saying a moment ago that you guys were losing your mind during issue eight. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? What was going on there? dude, I mean, we knew that we wanted eight to be like a huge finale and we wanted it to be a million pages, like as long as it could possibly be. with image, you're able to do that sort of thing. so like it really was an option. But at the same time, it was like, what can we what can we ask of our friend, Bob Quinn?

And and and so like it went through such a long process of like, God, OK, we wrote 100 page version of it. We got to hack it down. We got to like continue to see what can expand and contracts to fill the space as well as possible. And then we ended up like. You know, we're going to New York Comic Con as we do each year. I'm and like I'm mainlining coffee and writing it on the plane there. And then we stay up all night the first night of New York in the hotel writing it together.

And it's like it's just like we're just red eyed like maniacs trying to get that thing done. And now it's you know, it's here and it's a behemoth. And I'm really happy with it. But it did almost kill us for sure. Yeah, that was a super special experience finishing the like the first like really solid version of it together. in the hotel in New York.

For anyone listening that doesn't know, Ethan and I live on opposite ends of the country and have for our entire friendship and now working partnership. So all of Kill Your Darlings, or I should say most of it was written just completely remotely with us both sort of going off and doing things separately. And then... Issue A just so happened to be getting finished as we were going to New York. So then we were in the hotel room, finished it up. Or so we thought.

We were like, man, we finished the whole thing together. That's so cool. And then, of course, like two weeks later, we cracked it open again and we were just right back on Zoom being like, all right. And also there was no time to savor that moment of working together. It was just like, fuck, go, go, go, go. It was. It was because it was also after a full day of tabling. so then we were back in the hotel room.

And it got to the point where we just have to cut stuff and both of us have things that we like and Ethan's like, I think we gotta cut this. I'm just like, fucking fine. And then I'm coming over to him, I'm like, this part just like, this is not working, we have to get rid of this. And Ethan's like, fuck fine. And then I finished my shit, we haven't had anything to eat and I'm just like, dude, I gotta go to Taco Bell. And Ethan was like, I'm not fucking moving until I finish this thing.

I'm like, dude, I'm going then. I'm fucking going. Truly showing the difference in approach there, like right off the jump. you guys, like, you, just like put your head down and bulldoze through the wall and griffin's like, I need to step away or I'm going to tear this computer in half. I'm getting major fear and loathing in Las Vegas. yeah, for sure. That's accurate. Yeah. Let's just talk about country.

We're going to get into sort of like how the relationship changed as you guys went through this series. But I want to quickly let's just kind of go back to the very, very beginning. And again, as the last time we talked to you guys was in September of 23, we had Bob here on in that conversation and it just so happened to come out the week before the release of issue one. And I had the chance to read the first two issues before that conversation.

And but since then, we have concluded that eight issue series of Rose's Journey. And as we said just a moment ago, the trade is out. It's physically here. Everyone, I'm holding it in my hands. So Ethan, it's so pretty. You know what? I will say also you guys said it a moment ago. You sort of were joking a little bit, but it does sort of stand out on the shelf because it's thicker, right? It's just a thicker book. Yeah. John J. Hill design really helps it to pop. Yeah.

The spot gloss was the dream and it shines. Yeah, it's lovely. We got copies of that and we were both super happy about it. And it turned out so great. And then the German editions arrived on our porch and we like, what the fuck? They hard covers. no kidding. Awesome. They're amazing. There's one edition of it that has spot glitter. it's crazy. It's so cool. Isn't that the UK like all overseas? They always put out better traits like it seems like like I saw.

I saw like a black and white do a power bomb and it was like Europe. was UK exclusive. Like why, why don't we get any of cool stuff over here? It's cause when you open the German version, it's just like yelling at you. Wallace is so much angry. Ethan. So I want to start with you here. Take us back to when you first heard back from Bob. putting out all these emails to different artists that you guys were planning to do this story and you heard back from Bob.

What was sort of the reaction from you two when you first heard back from Bob firstly and what was sort of the secret thread between you and Griffin both as he accepted to join you guys on this journey? Yeah, I mean that whole thing is incredibly surreal because like at that point, there was so much uncertainty. Like we were like, I think we're making a comic book. Like we're really trying to make a comic book.

But had never done it and like had never written something and then seen, you know, like an amazing artist like Bob, like bring it to life in a way that felt like really, you know, real, like, this book could be on the shelf. And so like, I think like we were so tentative about all of that. like speaking to Bob, was like, man, he's really cool, he seems really interested, but again, none of it felt real.

But the concept of it was so insane, because we had been admirers of his work and everything. And when he was starting to be like, you know what I think? I don't think I might be into this. It was just like, Jesus Christ, this might be a real book. This might be something respectable. Yeah, it took a really long time. Like it took really like getting a lot of pages from him for it to start feeling more real because yeah, he's he is like a veteran.

Like he's he's incredible and he made us look so good. And so like, yeah, it seems so insane that he would be down to commit to something like this with newbies like us. And the gratitude has never, ever stopped. And we're never letting him go. Yeah, well everybody was a newbie at some point. So, you know, you got to start that journey. Yeah, it's true. Griffin, how about from your angle? How did you sort of react internally as you guys learned that Bob was joining you guys on the series?

Yeah, I don't know what else to other than it was extremely exciting and daunting because of what Ethan's talking about where it's like, we kind of this guy really knows what he's doing. He's used to working professionally. And so there's no room for us to Or we have to figure out what the rookie mistakes are and squash them as fast as we can and start delivering scripts, like really solid stuff for Bob to draw. That's a great point. there was another person.

It existed in just Ethan and I's head for so long. And now there was another person that had a lot on the line too. And so we both felt a need, a desire to make sure that we were keeping, I shouldn't say keeping him happy, but like that Bob was having a good time working on it. Sort of anticipating needs and such. It was like with that, got the image green light prior to Bob and it was like, God, if it's going to be an image, we have to bring it.

And then Bob getting on board was like, we cannot disappoint him. yeah, like, yeah. I think there was like kind of a feeling that maybe we would end up working with someone that was closer to the position that we were in. It just kind of seemed like that would probably be the case. But of course, you know, we're reaching out to anyone. and everyone and then yeah, like Ethan said, Bob has been in the industry for a few years. He's got a solid resume, work under his belt, years under his belt.

And that's fucking crazy that he agreed to work with us. That's absolutely insane that he agreed to do this. I think he acknowledges that. And thank you to his wife, Melissa, as well for letting Bob take that leap with us.

Now, I don't know if you guys are comfortable sharing this and please tell me I can edit this part out if you don't want to divulge, but going through the process of trying to find an artist, you guys said that you sort of just cold emailed a ton of different collaborators throughout that process.

Is there anyone that you're comfortable sharing of, ones that you're sort of hoping that would have said yes, or, maybe like talks were happening and just didn't work out or can you divulge any of that at all? Or is that sort of left behind the email chain or the email block? I mean, an easy one to share because she's been killing it and I really hope we can work together. And sometimes Morgan Beam Morgan Beam was somebody that we were like, we were like, man, that style would be crazy for this.

And we did get to speak with her a little bit. And she's super cool. it's been like there have been a couple like that where it's like we've seen them do a ton of cool stuff since. And it's like, man, I really hope we can circle back around someday. And yeah, she's definitely like at the top. Morgan's a good, good friend of the show. We've had her on. We had a client for for crashing. Right. She's great.

And obviously that would have been, I mean, a completely different total version of the book. And it's it's like wild to think about that version. But I do think, yeah, Bob was sort of called to us in in a sense or we called the Bob or whatever it was. There was some connection because he we begged Bob. He was just like, yeah, had this real energy and passion about it, just without us even having a single conversation. And so that was that was really exciting.

It's nice to know that somebody sees that that value in what you guys brought to the table and totally and has faith in you. So that's awesome. nobody had it to that point. Yeah, nobody nobody had had put faith in us yet. Well, somebody did image did right. Well, sure, sure. Yeah. But in terms of in terms of another artist sort of committing their time and energy to our, you know, our project.

Yeah, it was that was an immense like boost like to drive away the imposter syndrome was like, all right, if he if he thinks this is something if he sees something here, then maybe there is. Absolutely. Well, in previous conversations, you both mentioned that you had to learn not only how to be proper storytellers as individuals, but also as a team. I'm gonna start with you, Griffin. In what ways did that working relationship evolve for you two as you continue to work throughout the series?

Well, yeah, it was tricky because we were doing, we were working on ourselves and working on the duo, like you're saying. And so, I mean, an obvious one that comes to mind for me is just literally like we had to figure out how we wanted to co-write. Writing is a very, you know, sort of a theory or sort of magical practice in the way that it's just you and your tool. That's that's a theory. That's a clear.

You got to figure out how to spend time with your tool alone and then spend your time together. Exactly. Isn't that what we all do? We all use our tool and like by ourselves and then we eventually share it with the world. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Whoever will share it with us. We to co tool. You got to pull something out of the ether using your tool. Yeah, of course. Don't pull other tools out of either. So that alone is like hard to figure out.

And then how can we make sure that our minds are thoroughly melding on the page? Because in conversation, it's easy. But on the page is a totally different story. Yeah. And at first it started as like I was writing a full draft and then Ethan would come in and just like. It would be like putting layers of paint just on top of each other, which sometimes would be complimentary and other times would be like, this is two totally different colors that we just put on top of each other.

They don't go together very well. And then we would just have to keep calling each other and be like, where did that thing go that I liked? But I liked that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're bulldozing each other. Yeah. Well, OK, I'm going to make you guys brag about each other for a quick second, just without the other one saying or reacting to what the other one says. And Ethan, I'll start with you. What is one thing that you think Griffin does really well in your guys's partnership?

I mean, we literally separate the work based on our strengths. The dude, the dude has a visual eye that I don't like. Like the dude can lay out a visual story in a way that I cannot. Griffin has a really, really good eye for that stuff of like striking visuals and pacing that that is like he's so good at that shit. Thank you, my love. I so yeah, it's just the opposite. It's the it's the rest of the script. That's exactly how we split it.

And Ethan does all the dialogue and will come in and bring all this character work to it that just sometimes won't even like fully occur to me as I'm like doing all these visuals that I'm like setting up for him to to fill with all of his wonderful words. And every single time it's so great. I'm really spoiled because I get to kind of experience the whole thing a couple of times over with like reading it.

with Ethan's stuff in there for the first time is like a whole different experience than me just reading over everything that I've written. And then of course, seeing it drawn later is like a whole nother time that I get to see it. So it's really I got the best of all worlds over here. We just finished a script last night and I got to read it and I don't know, maybe it's the first script for another little independent project.

Ethan. Ethan and I are like bashing our heads into a wall against for regarding this script. But Ethan, I don't know, buddy. I think it's in a lot better shape than we were given the credit for. Again, because you came in and filled it with some really great words. I love reading it. This is great. We love each other. We love each other. So, yeah, we split the scripts down the middle where I'll come in and do all the visuals and lay the whole thing out. And then Ethan will.

come in and say, this is what all the characters are saying here in this panel and this one and this one. And we'll advise either way and like we'll have discussions about each other's stuff. But generally, it's kind of like that was how we had to figure out how to work together was it was like we got to have different departments and then our departments can confer so that we're not just like trying to do the same thing differently all the time.

Yeah. And it just came down to like an honest conversation of. What do I like doing the most? And what do I feel I do best? And vice versa, what do I like seeing from you? What do I think you do best? And then it just lined up perfectly where I was like, I just like, I don't know. Sometimes I don't have time to think about all the dialogue that's going into it. Or I have a habit of just getting in there. and writing a line that feels like a temp line and then maybe I don't change it.

I don't know. Whereas that's my favorite shit. And so it's like been surprising like it's remained a really joyful experience to be able to hand it off that way. It has continued to be really, really good for us, I think. I think that's one thing.

One thing that's super interesting is hearing different creative teams at different points in their relationship and you know, Cause you know, hearing you guys who, you not, you're not new, you're not a new creative team, but you're new in the creative aspect of what you've been creating. And then you talk to somebody like, you know, Brian K von and you know, Chris remind me, yeah, yeah, staples.

And it's like, then the people in the middle, like everybody's like, and then also the UIs have this interesting aspect of, know, again, creating like your, your creator owned. like title and like, I don't know. I find it so, so interesting, but I got, I have to go into a question that I've had since I guess your last conversation with Chris when I was there.

And it was talking about kill your darlings being this piece of literary kind of advice that means, and just as a refresher for the listeners or means moving, means removing parts of a story that are beloved, but don't contribute to the overall narrative. And this is kind of us getting into the story, so to speak. of Kill Your Darlings. And Ethan, I want to start with you.

Can you walk us through, now that we know the story and how it plays out with Rose and Eleanor and how this term really applies to the story of Rose and the characters of Rosewood? Because I have ideas from the perspective of a reader, but I really want to hear it from you first, Ethan, and then we'll get with you, Griffin. Well, as as super cool artists, we try not to over explain, but let me.

But but no, I will say like when when that title came up, when we figured out the title, we were like, holy shit, this is crazy because it applies to like a great many things in and around the book where it was like we were always saying it to each other and being told it in working on our first project or where I've like trying to figure out how to write and make something good and real for the first time. was like, was a lesson we had to learn really thoroughly in ourselves.

And then within the book, it's also a book about creativity. Like it's about making things, about being a creative person. Rose is somebody who, her whole joy and identity comes from making things and like inhabiting the worlds she creates. But then also she has a... different points in her life had to learn to let go of those things or had them ripped out of her hands. And then if you want to talk about killing darlings, there are babies that die in this book. are babies that get eaten.

And that is sort of like an element that has to do with like the young feeding the furnace of the old.

So there's like, there are a lot of different sides to it where it applies, but like generally, this is a, you know, it's a book that pertains to creative people and people that make things and what makes somebody like that and what is it like living like that and how fucking like difficult can that be again because we're super cool artists and and and so yeah that's that's kind of like a roundabout sort of like it means a lot of stuff to us and it continued to sort of inform the process I think

but the identity of the book really came together once we could put that label on it I think. You know, it's funny, you're joking there, Ethan, but so this is just sort of a weird anecdote, but we had Rom V on the show a couple of months ago and he refused to explain anything. He was like, listen, I wrote it. It's up to you to figure it out. I just, I that right there, again, I you were joking. David Lynch approach. Yeah, exactly.

think he even like, he even may have even referenced Blue Velvet like three times during the conversation. But like, I sort of found a new appreciation for that since that conversation. and here you joke about it right now. It honestly, it's sort of, it's clicked something in my head when I approached talking to a creator here on the show is like, I no longer, and I know Aaron's very similar to this as well. We no longer want them to just pull out, explain this, this, this, and this.

It's almost like a trapping of an interviewer. Cause it is so much left up to us as the reader. And I think you guys, especially you two and Bob do an incredible job in this story to leave a lot up to the reader and also to Rose as a creator in the story. Like it's almost, Her imaginary is the barrier of what she can create. Right. Right. Really appreciate that.

And like that is that is definitely like a super intentional thing with this book that it was like we want to leave room for people their own sort of minds to fill in some of the space of the book because like it is something it's like a weird thing when you're trying to make something really personal where it's like you're holding out a platter of like here's some of my feelings and things I've dealt with and everything.

And it's like I'm not going to tell you how to feel about my feelings or what I did here, but you tell me, what do you think? Like have a taste of this. What do you think? And it has been weird because some people have reacted in ways I have not expected at all. And that's like part of the magic of the process. I think it's like letting people come to you with that.

Yeah. You know, it's funny as Aaron, I think you can agree here and you know, obviously I'm friends with both of you as well, but I think even when we sort of indulge in people and show our underbelly and expose ourselves in certain ways, I don't know if anyone really knows us, right? Like, like we never ever give everything up. At least I haven't ever, you know, maybe we can, maybe I can find a couch somewhere and lay down really quick while we're here online.

But, you know, I think even when we have people in our lives who we trust implicitly and folks that we would share anything with, there is always a couple of things that we leave in the back burner that no one will ever know about us except for us. Right. Right. And I think that's sort of what you're explaining here a little bit with the story is that like, yeah, sure. You can explain what you what your intention was, but it's really up to the reader and forever. Right.

This is a tangible, real thing that will last forever. And someone who's reading this in 100 years will pick up something different than how we're interpreting it now in twenty twenty four. Right. Yes. That's the shit. That is shit right there. 100 percent. Yeah. I want to echo, though, like I am, you know, I completely understand the not wanting to be spoon fed. the story or the implications, the consequences.

I can honestly say I've been in even films where it's like I've loved the story so much. then the last couple of minutes, I've been spoon fed the plot or what it all means. And it just ruins the entire experience. I do respect us. Yeah. It's like, you don't respect my intelligence. You don't respect my emotional intelligence, you know, to understand and pull out of something, pull something out of this story.

And I think that that's something that Kill Your Darlings absolutely nails is because there is that ambiguity when it comes to both like Eleanor's motivations as well as Rose's motivations. Chris is actually going to touch on this. We both have talked about our questions, what we wanted to ask you well before this conversation. So I'm going to let it keep going. there are some things that popped up in this book that I, you know, I don't need explanation, but I need answers. Well, you know what?

Let's go and pick that brain a little bit. let's go and get into we're going to jump forward a little bit to issue seven here. We finally get the face off between our two main characters, right? We get, know, that we've got the unfortunate predicament of each of them. We've got sort of holding on to hate with Eleanor. And then we have the sort of running from fear a little bit with Rose and Griffin. I'd love to hear you sort of interpret this however you want.

Both of these characters have led tragic lives thus far in the story, and they've shown that. both of them will pretty much do whatever it takes to get them out from under that weight. Specifically, think Eleanor in this situation, but Rose in a much more specific way from her point of view in the story. How did you and the team approach these two struggles and the clash of those two struggles in that story, not only in that issue, but also in the overall story? Sure. Good question.

It's a great question. We had talked about how we wanted Rose and Eleanor to feel like they were coming from a similar seed and then the choices they make along the way put them on totally different paths and the way that they can be linked without being the same even though there's so much about their lives that are somewhat similar the most important sort of aspects of their life being similar and that being just the complete and total betrayal of paternal figures and also their magic.

They have magic. They're Say what? And so when it's time for them to come face to face for the first time and so much has happened to tie them together and yet they're sort of strangers to one another. We thought it was really interesting and felt also very similar to like estranged extended family members.

And so Even though Rose and Eleanor are not related by blood, we certainly wanted there to be an element of them having a lineage, a similar quality to like a grandmother granddaughter relationship. And so it's kind of like them looking in a mirror a little bit. It's especially for Eleanor who has the hindsight of the past like 300 years to be like, here's you know, maybe a sort of different version, you know, of myself.

And that's why she, you know, extends the offer to like do it together with Rose. Of course, that's kind of an empty, an empty sort of sentiment from her. But I think she is interested in the fact that like, here's another one of me. But I also think that her immediate sort of betrayal of even Rose is like, OK, so she doesn't care about much besides herself. Right.

And she's sort of like it was really important to us that there's like a little moment in that issue where she's like she kind of reaches out to Rose and says like because she's sort of inadvertently cursed this person that is like a kindred spirit to her and has been through some of the same horrific stuff that she has. And so she's kind of like, man, if I, you know, if I had known that you were special like me, I would never have allowed. What does she say?

Like your years of suffering or whatever. But then it's like Like immediately after that, she's just kind of like, OK, fuck you, I'm getting in your brain. it's like it's like like there is like a connection there. There is like an elegant like a sympathy there. But at that point in her life, Eleanor is so like her spirit is so burnt away.

But it's just like they're never really going to have a heart to heart, but they can certainly look at each other and go like, yeah, we've been through some stuff, haven't we? Right. It was almost like she wanted to kill her darling a little bit. She's done it plenty of times. She could do it again. I wouldn't know. I couldn't. I could never explain. They're just like, who's the darling? Did she die? When did this happen? I didn't see it happen in the story.

No, I love no. The thing I love about what you're you're both are saying right now is, again, this this they come from very similar seeds. rooted with, with, again, strongly connections and there, but also they have this, you know, the event of Rose's mother with Eleanor's son, this tragic incident that, that was an accident that kind of connects them forever now connects them, their fates, like they're intertwined nonstop.

And it's crazy that they're both just so just, you know, traumatized by their past, by their, by their, by the, things that have occurred to them as they grew up and it's just insane to see again, Chris said it in his question. They both have their own, like, I don't, I don't say like crosses to bear and it is their choices. Like I love how you said that it's their choices that really, and that's the choices of killing your darling.

So that's the choice of, of accepting your fate or that's the choice of, of again, I always remember the internship with, That movie is like, it's what you do after you get out of the blender. You know, it's what you do with those choices. I don't know if you guys remember the scene that I'm talking about. But anyways, I love just the fact that they both are given these very similar but different circumstances.

And it's just the choices that really drives whether they continue to love or not love. maybe and maybe there would have been a time where they could have really helped each other through the world. But the sort of tragedy of it is it's just too late. Like it's like too much has happened. so now it's like, what do you do now? Yeah. Yep. So this conversation sort of reminded me of a short story I read recently called the thing in the forest. You guys familiar with this by A.S. Byatt?

You familiar? No, It's basically about these two young girls during the war, war one era where they get sent off to this, you know, little girls camp during the war. So while that, you know, all the bombs are going off in the city, they sort of separated them from everybody else.

And these two young girls, they escape off into the forest one night and they both sort of experience, they see this thing, they don't really, they explain it in the story, but it's sort of like just like sort of swamp thing, man thing as character or being whatever. And then the story sort of jumps forward, right? And then they both end up becoming these very different people. Like one, at the beginning of the story, one of the girls was sort of reserved and quiet.

And then she grows up to be sort of a wild child and sort of like lives on the seat, you know, just lives by the seat of her pants and doesn't have kids and just sort of like is sort of just a sort of flower child in a way. And the other one who was sort of the more, the one who convinced the girl to go out, she becomes sort of the shut in. She becomes like almost a gorephobe because she's afraid of what she saw that day and she never was able to get over it.

And in my opinion, it sort of highlights how we all respond very differently to traumatic events, right? And I think this is perfectly paralleled in this story between Eleanor and Rose, how one is sort of trying to overcome it while the other one is fixated on that trauma, right? Right. That's a great comparison. I really love that. Yeah, the two of them sort of use fantasy in different in different ways.

And it's that they're sort of like a sadness to how much does fantasy encroach on your life? Like how much at a certain point does fantasy sort of override any hope that you have for anything real?

Because even though Rose is the one who creates a whole literally creates a whole fantasy kingdom full of imaginary creatures and everything, Eleanor you know, for much, much longer lives in not necessarily, you know, a true version of her life because she's always playing different characters, more or less, as she bops around the globe and marries into a family, has a couple of kids, eats those kids, goes over to another family, presumably. So she's always in a different reality, so to speak.

And so. They both are running away from the true version of their lives. Now, one thing that I wanted to ask about, and I'm very curious about this, is throughout the story, we see these, you these time jumps between, you know, modern day and Chris. I'm going to allow Chris to lay out some times, you know, along the timeline for us. Yeah, we've got 1692, 1700, 1887, 1977. 1987, 1995 is kind of where we pick up in the story. 2003, 2011, and then finally, 2027.

we jump back and forth, you know, throughout the issues and we see glimpses of Eleanor in the past and Eleanor's families and again, Rose as well with her circumstances. And it's in Chapter five that we learn about the truth of Rose's mother and her involvement in the story. I'll start with you, Griffin. Can you expand on how you guys kind of came up with this strategy for the time jumping element? The time jumping actually was kind of a late edition.

And that's because Eleanor as a main player in the story was a very late edition where we sort of stumbled upon her as the antagonist of the book. It was crazy the way that it happened where the main sort of conflict for a really long time was just Rose. against the entity and the entity would be taking on a few more different shapes than we see in this final version of the story.

And then we got to this this moment with Andrea, which was born out of a just a sort of visual idea that Ethan had before we even started writing the book. It was kind of in the mix of ideas we were talking about as we were trying to formulate something. And this was in the mix with, don't know, I have this idea about like the spooky crayon drawings and what can we do with those? Using something really childlike to do something really horrific.

And then when we wanted to expand on Andrea a bit more and have her do this terrible thing, we were like, let's use that idea of someone hitting a kid in the middle of the road in the middle of nowhere. And what do they do about it? where we thought that was a really interesting predicament to just put Andrea in.

And then we were like, what if in the background we started like sowing little ideas that like in the news report, you can hear that the grave was like dug up and there was some sort of ritual done around it. And like, what if the kids grandma is like a witch or something and that's the origin of the evil. that we just never see that all happens off When we got to that, we were like, Jesus Christ, the book is about witches.

Like, all just started like, it all just started like firing off like from that. Yeah, it's crazy how that just wasn't there for the longest time. And then when we were like, no, the grandmother, this grandmother character that curses Andrea, that puts this evil into the world that will eventually attach itself to Rose and cause all this terrible mess. that's the villain. No shit. We found her. It only took doing a pat like a whole pass on the series like twice before we did.

And so then we were like, well, we have to bring her to the forefront. But also, fuck, we have a lot of story here. We're really sticking to eight issues and we're really sticking to 22 pages an issue for the most part, of course, for Bob's sake. So how can we fit in some time with her? to sort of flesh her out. Because right now it doesn't look like there's a lot of space.

So then I had been talking about how I watched Breaking Bad for the first time while we started doing this, working on what would become Kill Your Darlings. And it was when I was watching season two, and season two Breaking Bad has all those excellent black and white cold opens that are alluding to, you know, what will eventually be revealed in the finale. And I was like, let's do that. Not like not even sideless.

mean, obviously Breaking Bad didn't invent a cold open, but it was just where my head was at at the time it started as I want to do this. These openings that will sort of homage or sort of point to the villain. And then we will fully meet her later when we have space to do it properly. So, yeah, then we were like, OK, let's open each issue with a flashback. to the many, many years that this woman has evidently lived.

And that just all started pouring out as we dug into what is the backstory of Eleanor and what's her deal. And then when it became clear that, there's a lot to get to, we were like, this is perfect. Let's just constantly do these time jumps then with these openers. And there's also the sort of book end, there's like an eight year time jump near the start of the book. And then there's an eight year time jump right at the end of the book. There's a lot to get into with that as well.

But it's like we wanted this to be kind of a big sprawling saga that like covers Rose going from child to adult and and and expressing a lot about her through that. like even just Rose's life, it's like covers a lot of years. then and then it was like, and we're also jumping back a whole lot of years. So it's just like ended up being all over the place. But we kind of love it. Yeah. You know, I am curious. Just let's just say in a hypothetical fantasy Rose world.

We could just strap Bob to a Jack Kirby art table and just have him draw as many pages as we wanted as quickly as possible. like this fantasy. How many issues would this story be for you guys? Like if you could expand it, would you? I mean, number of issues. We did talk about this. We did talk about when issue eight was super fucking long, we were like, uh-oh, it might have to be nine issues. I wouldn't want it to be more like I we really wanted it to be an open and shut like definitive thing.

And we didn't want it to like, you know, talking about it being a big product saga, but like like in terms of the content, but we didn't necessarily we didn't want it to go super long. We wanted to be like, here's a book. And that was like really important to us the whole time. There's stuff I would love to expand on. There's stuff I would love to revisit and whatever. But like. In terms of this story, I really like it being contained to what it is. Definitely.

I mean, there might have been a couple of issues where it's like, man, a couple extra pages would be great. And maybe not even to fit any story in, but to even just change the pacing of it a little bit. That said, the name of the game for this book was Efficiency. And Ethan and I wanted to train ourselves to be right at that 22 page mark that so many comics sit at, Like that's an acceptable length.

And so we were like, well, for this first go, we should try and operate with that mindset as much as possible. so, yes, many darlings were killed to make the most efficient version of the story. And that was already the mindset we had. And then we also set kind of a rule for ourselves to not go over six panels per page for the most part, because that was like the sort of first that was a note that was a little piece of advice.

I can't remember if it was Ryan or Donnie or both of them collectively, but somebody was like, hey, just put a cap on six and just see how it feels. And it helps because we also really love like it has such a cinematic quality. with Bob's art and so making sure that we can get those images as big as possible was important. And then also we just talked about the cold opens. The cold opens. I love them. I'm so glad we did them. That's exactly how I want to tell the story.

That said, it did take about four pages off of that page count that we could use to tell the main part of the story. So then we had to get even more efficient. We had to find a way to do Rose's story in no, not 20 pages, closer to 16, 17 pages per issue. And we like readability. We like it to move at a clip.

And so when you're trying to maintain that with fitting everything in that you need to without trying to have every character saying, this is what I'm dealing with and this is how I'm going to do it. It's just like. Woo, it is like a puzzle box for sure. Well, I mean, I'll tell you guys, re reading it for this conversation. It is extremely readable. It's one of those things where you look at the page and you're like, you see the automata P as you see the panel layouts.

You're like, okay, I'm to have a good time with these couple of pages. And, know, speaking of our friend, Brian Michael Bendis there, you know, he's a legend obviously, but there have been times where I've been reading books from him. like, Holy crap, Brian, that's a lot of dialogue, man. What are we doing here? But you know, he's a genius. He knows what he's doing. I get it.

But like just in terms of what you guys are talking about here with your first go around with your drawings, I think you guys did an incredible job of not only keeping it sort of fresh and just sort of like, like you said, sort of snappy, but you're also given you're giving Bob a lot of room to sort of play and let him sort of showcase what he's really good at.

And I think I said it in the first conversation and it just rang true all the way through the series after issue one and two that This is the best that Bob's ever been. it is I told everyone last year that issue one was up there as one of my favorite single issues of the year. And I stand by that still. And I think I say this as someone who enjoys the medium and I love the content of the story.

But I feel like I could hand this I could I could hand the first issue to anyone who hasn't read a comic and they could I think it would honestly be Bob's art that would be like that would pull them in. Right. for sure. Yeah. Yeah, he brought he brought it to life and he and he made sure that yeah, people like like even just the cover.

Yeah. One is just like it just like draws you in like you're on this path with Rose and we were so spoiled with him because yeah, he really like sold us in a way that we will be eternally grateful for. But you know, to speak on that and I'm sorry, I I didn't tell her this. So, OK, I'll just let me go into this really quick. My girlfriend and I, we went to a comic shop here recently. And we're just looking at the wall of trades.

And I didn't mention that I knew you guys, but she pointed at this book on the shelf because of the design. Like she she wanted to read it because she saw the cover. Well, first of she saw like the blood splatter on this. not blood splatter, but where everyone like the pink splatter here on the side. Yeah. the pink and white really pop on a shelf. And again, how thick it is. You're getting your money's worth with this trade. But then she looked at it.

She saw the cover and she was like, I want I told her I would buy her. like a trade to get, she read saga for me guys. I'm truly blessed over here. And I was like, for your next venture, you can pick whatever you want to read. And I can sort of guide you in that way. If you, you, if I think it's a book and she picked this one, I'm like, don't worry, babe, I have one already. You're totally fine. And also I know the guys. So nice, nice, nice. Yeah. I just want to this out there.

Also I have, so an anecdote about this and I know I keep touching on the, you know, kill your darling's title, but I wanted to just tell you when exactly like it hit me where it like really, and I want to say it was, I want to say it was issue seven, which we keep mentioning issue seven. And I'll it's, and I think it's the, think it's issue seven. It's when Eleanor picks up the hedgehog and just obliterates the hedgehog. And like at that point, and it was like, and it just went to nothing.

And she's like, they they they're so frail. And I think that that was the perfect like metaphor for like kill your darlings. My wife read that issue, read all the issues in front of me. And when she got to that bit, she literally put it down and went, fuck you. Spiky or three children. Yeah, he left behind a family of three children. My wife. Yeah, no, that one. That one hurt for sure. No, appreciate that.

Yeah, that bit is really like it sucks because yeah, it is like the frailty of these things that Rose has created that got her through her life. It is. It really gives you a sense of that vulnerability. Visually, this book brings you to a place and not just in like, it's like in The Matrix. You know, when you watch The Matrix, when you're in The Matrix, it's like it has that green hue to it. And then when you're in the real world, it's all dull and crappy.

there's but you feel that when you're reading this book, because there's times and it's not just like the difference between the fantasy world and the real world. It's the emotions. Like the colors and the writing blend so well into these emotional moments that you're having where it's so dark. Like when Rose first goes into that forest and approaches the cave and it's so dark and all the only color you see is in that pool of energy. It's just wild how well it all just meshes together.

So I really enjoy like, visually and cohesively with the writing, it just blended so well into that story and really hit those elements where it was like an emotional, like again, hey, I'm just hedgy, done. Really appreciate it. Bob nails the tone every time with the colors. Like he is a wizard with colors. And like every time we would write a scene and then and then see the colors, like you'd see the line art and it's like, yeah, he's nailing it.

But then the colors would come in and it's like, shit, he's so on the same page with us. Like he knows exactly what we're trying to get across here. Like the color. It's crazy how much the colors of an environment can tell you about what characters are dealing with internally and put you in the same spot as them. And he's so good at. Yeah, you don't really think about that, psychology of the colors. He too, he has such a simple, like when he turns in inks, it's very clean.

It's very simple, especially because he's doing it all for himself. Him sending us like the pencils and the inks are mostly so we can just tell him if something is absolutely not going to like work with whatever's coming next or whatever. But then, yeah, when Bob does the colors, especially, yes, on his own stuff, so much of what ends up in the final result comes from the colors. And so that was always mind blowing.

And we spent a lot of time talking about the colors of the book and wanting to make sure that there was an intentionality to the colors. And then when we asked Bob for some colored stuff before we actually got going, he sent over a super simple piece of like young Rose in the rain. And I was like, he's going to get it. It's to be totally fucking fine. That's incredible. Yeah. Incredible work. That's awesome. OK, so let's go ahead and get back to the story here a little bit.

I do want to pick your brain a little bit about sort of the aftermath of this story. So after Rosewood is saved and Rose reasons with Eleanor, we get the sort of this tease of a quote realm of terrors. And at the same time, we see the fantasy world. almost fully integrate into our normal world. And this is sort of the way I interpret it. You guys again can tell me what you were sort of aiming for. But again, like we spoke about earlier, it's sort of, I guess, up to the reader.

But the way I interpret it was our dreams can be real if we fight for them and they deserve a responsible amount of space in our real lives. That's sort of how I interpreted that that final moment there where they all sort of transition over into the real world. Chris, I like that. It's so deep. Ethan, I want to start with you here first.

So am I close there or was it were you guys going for something else with sort of that finale with the the fantasy world sort of coming over into the real world? Yeah, no, I mean, I love I love the way you put that and like and I like that you brought up the realm of terrors as well, because like that is sort of that's the sort of thing that bubbles in the background a little bit is like where the great and terrible evil came from, like where it was summoned from. You get a peek of that in five.

And then when we see it in eight, Eleanor says like I don't know, man, maybe maybe maybe this terrible thing is it came from me. If this lovely place came from you, maybe this is what I had inside. And like and so like there is this sort of element to especially and to the resolution, especially about the sorts of things that we bring into the world. And like and and if if we go through all this shit in our lives, like what is the result of it?

And like and like how does that impact the sort of mark that we leave behind? And with Rose, it's like the whole series, you're like she created wonderful things as a child because like we're all very capable of that as children. We become so much less capable of it at a certain point, at least a lot of us do. And you sort of watch the whole book like that stuff's withering. Like it's like she's watching those amazing things that she created sort of die and go away.

And so like like we really determined that the end of this book, it was going to end on this kind of this kind of lovely note. It's obviously not a fully happy ending. there are sad things and whatever, but it's like generally things end in a pretty nice spot for these characters. And like that ended up sort of being the most subversive thing after the book being so dark for the entire the entire run.

And and so like that that given that that we were like, that's sort of the emotional place that we want to end. It's like that door opening and that stuff coming out into our world felt very true to us in terms of Rose as an It's like she's been through all of this. This is what it looked like as she got older. This is what her relationship to this stuff, how it evolved as she got older.

But ultimately, as she made it to the other side of a lot of this stuff, this was what she let out into the world. because we wanted to see a little bit of the result of that. And when I finally got to read the PDF of issue eight for the first time, I fucking broke down and cried when I read the bit where the little girl hugs Wallace because like that moment is so like epitomal to Rose's journey where it's like, look what she did.

Like she went through all of this and now look at this moment this little girl has where she gets to look at this thing and she feels something beyond herself. And so yeah, again, it's like without like... you know, cracking it too far open. It's like that's sort of where our heads were at with that. like, yeah, I love the way you put it for sure.

Unintentionally, it became about, I mean, the whole book is we've talked about it, about creativity and imagination and bringing things to life and magic. And really, that's just what making a piece of art is all about. And so the ending ended up being about us making our first comic book and taking something from our minds and bringing it out into the real world for other people to experience.

And so that ended up being a pretty, I can't even remember if that came to us first or if that came to us after we wrote it. At this point, it just all blends together. I remember at some point it clicked where it was just like, this is about us making a comic book, dude. Yeah. And we've mentioned a bunch of the rows in the book itself are like kind of aspirational in some ways.

And it's like a lot of stuff about that ending, like that moment and the moment she has with her son at the end are like they're sort of these moments of like maybe they're not things we're exactly experiencing at this moment. Like the book wasn't out in the world. We weren't done with it like. It's like some of it's kind of theoretical and hypothetical, but it's like, I don't know. This is like what I want to, again, put out there. Like this is what I'm hoping to say. Like I hope for this.

I hope that I could handle things like this. I hope that I leave something behind like this. Like it's like at a certain point, the book stops going. Look at all this fucked up shit I've been through. And it goes like, I don't know, wouldn't this be nice? You know, I love. thinking about this book as being like a metaphor kind of like for you guys, like almost like a reflection of you two. like, I can see it like, you know, I would ask like who's Eleanor and which of you is Rose.

We are both both. We are both both. Looks weird naked, but again, flashbacks to the substance. no, my real question would be, but no, I do, I do see some similarities between you know, like what you said, like releasing the book and like that's, that's you guys cracking open your brain and letting out this amazing creativity and, this love letter to, you know, letting good things out and into the world. Like that is kind of how the finale of this book ends up.

But my real question, because you know, none of, none of enough of that touchy feely stuff. why, why did you name the sword Francine? That's a great question. Nobody cares about this other than me. But I got a cold journalism right there, everybody. No, no, no, no. It's a great question because it's like it's such a it's such a like wonderful, like little detail in there that like I'm so attached to.

And she came up a minute ago, but that was actually my wife's contribution to the book was we were kicking back. We knew we wanted the sword to have a person name. Like we just thought it would be funny if a little girl named a sword like Paul or something like it had like like a regular. Yeah. For a moment, we had considered something, you know, big and fantastical and badass sounding. Right. And then we were like, OK, no way. It's funny.

It's 1995. I have to name I have to give something a name. It's probably going to be a person name. It's not going to be a name that a couple of dudes in their 20s writing a fucking badass comic book with. Right. Right. Apocalypse. Should have called it like McCauley. is like an important sound. So yeah, trying to capture what a kid like Rose would would would be into. And so. I threw that to my wife of like, do you think of this list of names?

And then she just threw out Francine and I was like, that's perfect. And that was a really cool thing too, for like us getting to share this book with people for the first time, like having family and loved ones, like read it in front of us and like see people experience that sort of thing for the first time. Getting to show her issue four and it gets to this moment of Rose like climbing that like mountain of.

shit in the, the, in the cave and then like calling out to Francine and pulling it in that full page splash. What a cool thing. Like, like such a cool moment that like she was able to influence that. Like, and it's just like, there were so many moments like that along the way where it's like, God, making shit is so cool. Like, and getting to share it and like, and the way that that sort of soup like cooks together. yeah. Thank you for asking. That was a great question.

No, it's just, it's a, I think it parallels again. It's a great, point where again, your real life. characters and experiences influence the things that you create. And just like this little girl that, you know, probably even those those monster cards that her and you know, that they were playing with influenced the creatures. And it's just I yeah, yeah. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Again, I really enjoy it. So thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. yeah. Thank you.

I if it's up to us, we're going to get to make Beatembeast cards one day. I want that so bad. I want Wallace plushies and I want Beatembeast cards. There you go. Yeah. We have one more piece of gotcha journalism here. So in the epilogue, we end up in the year 2027. So in the near future with Rose and Elliot having made a life for themselves and they have a child of their own with their picket fence and their house and all that jazz. So Griffin, I'm going to put the spotlight on you here.

Is it fair to assume that we could maybe see some more in this universe in the future? Hmm. Huh? we talked about this earlier saying that Kill Your Darlings was always meant to be an eight-issue miniseries. Actually, it started out as seven and then it became eight. But for a long time, eight-issue miniseries, complete thing, beginning, middle and end. That is what we wanted it to be. That's what it is. Will we ever go back?

Because there is so much room to play and we love those characters and we love that world. I don't know. Who knows? Maybe I'm not going to say don't don't I don't want to say I don't want to say no, but there are no plans currently because it's already exactly what we wanted it to be. Yeah. Well, like there are no plans. We've thrown things to each other that were like, that would be neat.

like and like there was even something recently that I was turning over in my head that I was like, that's a fun idea. But at the moment, no. But. If you like this, we are cooking lots of other stuff. Something we've only sort of mentioned throughout the story is that this was Iser nominated. This was the best limited series from last year at the Isers. Yes. Incredible guys. That is so crazy.

I was there that night and I, know, I was, I, whenever they called it out, I don't know if you guys heard me, you probably didn't cause you were sitting up at the front with all the, you were rubbing elbows with the big wigs, but I yelled as loud as I could whenever they announced kill your daughter. it from the press area.

And I think there are more nominations in the future for you gentlemen, but I do think that it is truly a, it's a beacon for you guys that your first work ends up being something that's either nominated. I think that's incredible. So thank you so much. It's crazy, man. It's ridiculous. Like I cannot believe that happened. And also it's super stressful writing all the followups. It's really stressful to be one for one. That was not a consideration. It wasn't like we should go out for that.

Like it was like it was never like maybe we should like we can aim for it. And like it was never a thought. So like the fact that it happened is now like, God damn it. Now we have to like now we have to do all the expectations. Damn it. Yeah. Fuck. It was so much better when nobody knew the fuck we were. That's I mean, that's what Chris and I were like talking about before.

We were kind of like coming up with questions, you know, a little behind the scenes of the Oblivion bar was, you know, I was like we were talking about the time jumps. and how to like approach it into quite, I'm just like, I feel like it was, I was like, feel like it's intentional because there's so many different things, so many ways to approach it.

If they wanted like spin-offs or they wanted additional stories, you know, they can have like those eight years, know, like Rose could be going off on adventures, like in the different parts of the world. Like there's so much there. like, I know from me, the excitement would definitely be there to see more, you know, more Rosewood. adventures.

But before we let you go, you know, and before we, you know, send you off with our thank yous and our appreciations, we'd like to, we'd like to end the conversation by asking our guests what they've been enjoying recently. So I'm going to start with you, Ethan. I'm going start with you. This can be a movie, comic, video game, podcasts, whatever you've been enjoying, enjoying, and whatever you want to highlight. man. I have one that's a Pretty good fit for a Kill Your Darling's conversation.

I just finished the anime Free Rin, I think it's called Free Rin Beyond Journey's End, I think is what it's called. for anybody that doesn't know about that, it's about an elf character who she was part of an adventuring party in a fantasy world that basically had the Lord of the Rings journey where it's like you go to kill a demon king and you save the Dungeons and Dragons-esque, Middle Earth-esque world, but then like She's an elf, so she lives like hundreds and hundreds of years.

And so she outlives her whole party. They all die. and and and so it's like hundreds of years after they've already had that whole journey. And it's just like, OK, what now? And she's still sort of walking the earth. And it is like it's it's only like 20 something episodes they're doing a season two. But it was like, man, it is it is one of the best written shows I've I've I've seen in a very long time. And it's like it got me very emotional and like it like.

touches on some of the stuff that we were doing with Kill Your Darlings and in a fantasy setting too, where it's like, it's very funny, but it's also like, it really like dives into loss and some very real feelings of just like what it's like to move through this world and how tough that can be, but how people sort of hold each other up through it. Beautiful, beautiful show. Really, really highly recommend it. Yeah. How'd you watch it? It's on Crunchyroll, man. Crunchyroll, okay. Gotcha.

All right, cool. Griffin, how about you? Mm. The substance you've been loving. Megalopolis. You just you really want to talk about the substance. I don't. Aaron does it. I don't mind that movie. was fucking crazy. It was it was a wild theatrical experience. It was one of those moments where I was like, I can't believe I get to see this with a bunch of people because it was a sold out show. It's a word of mouth on that thing has been crazy.

Yeah. My brain is so broken every time you're mentioning it. I'm hearing sub stack You've been subpilled Yeah Some comics that I have been really enjoying A couple of like fresh series. Of course. The moon is following us. Daniel Warren Johnson Riley Rosmo fucking a What a team up. Yeah, damn it Issue one was so good. Jeff, you would like that one. Arcana. Yep. I've I've I've really liked I love it whenever Lemure is doing doing the whole shebang and I shut really quick.

I shudder to say this live here during a recording because we haven't done it yet, but we're supposed you guys are part of our interview. Or there you go. It's our New York Comic Con interview. I we do it every year. We release an episode every day of New York Comic Con. And usually it's a maniac. I know it's so stupid, but the episode he says that having planted out to a T every fucking year. The episode, the episode before you guys is Jeff Lemire talking about minor. So we'll see.

It hasn't happened yet. It was supposed to happen last week. He had to reschedule. So hopefully it happens. But if not, we have. We have you guys. We'll just split this up into two pieces and we'll release it both days. We almost got to do a panel with them at this recent San Diego, but he had to drop out, unfortunately. But hopefully someday because we're big fans. Griffin, what were you going to say after Miner Akani? You had one other one. Falling in love on the path to hell.

I've been really digg-ing. some movies. I mean, it's spooky season, so I've been watching a bunch of horror stuff and been going back some of the great guys running down the list. God damn. I like to share with the people monopolizing your time. No, I love it. So what's some of the horror films you've been seeing? Because actually, my girlfriend and I, did the same thing.

We created like a horror fest list where she picked three movies and I picked three movies and we and then at the end, once we've both watched each other's options, we're going to. end the horror fest on Halloween with Hereditary. So that's gonna be our final film. just ran Hereditary last night. Yep, just still upsetting. Still very upsetting. I've gone back to some classics that I haven't gone back to in a really long time this year. Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Silence of the Lambs, Carrie.

All of these like staples, these things that we kind of take for granted. And I haven't watched them in a couple of years because it's like, yeah, I've seen them, you know, a handful of times in my life already. And they're great. And then, you know, every single time I watch, you know, any of those ones, I'm just like, fuck, man, that is a really good movie. That's a really spooky movie. Well, they really did that, didn't they? They did.

I had the opportunity to watch Texas Chainsaw with an audience in a theater for the first time and that was like a whole different thing. So here's my recommendation. Like if you are sitting here with like a list, because like I still have some some iconic movies that I haven't just actually put the time in to watch because I'm like, yeah, I know they're great. Everyone knows they're great. Everyone's talked about them to death. What do I got to fucking watch them for? Go and go and do them.

Go and watch them because like, hey, they are great. Who would have thought? Who would have thought? OK, I'm going to quickly list off our horror fest. So we watched the 1971 See No Evil by Richard Fleischer, Mia Farrow. It's one of her early films. We watched the 2022 Speak No Evil, which is a very frustrating and upsetting film. Aaron recently just watched the 2024 version. He did not have as good of a time watching that one. It's the shittiest Home Loan sequel ever. That's saying something.

We watched the 1994 Michelle's Savali is a Savali Cemetery Man. I don't know if you're familiar with that one. I don't Don't look now, which was a 1973 film by Nicholas Rio, a Rio something like that. Of course, a classic, like you said, just bonafide, you know, iconic story. 1984 is a nightmare on Elm Street. And then and we're going to finish it off right before her. We're going to watch. a foreign film audition from 1999.

yeah, so that's our horror fast one case you need some horror recommendations for everybody, including the ones that that Griffin mentioned. So well, gentlemen, thank you both so, so much for joining us back here on the Oblivion Bar podcast. I know it probably already goes without saying, but I feel like I have to say every time around you guys how I'm just I'm just so proud of you guys. I was going to try to a more romantic way of saying that. I feel like I just bona fide.

But I'm so bonafide when I'm around you guys. I'm going to talk about you guys. That's romantic. Amateur. Are serious? You serious? It's just it's one of those things where I would have been proud of you guys regardless, but I'm just so happy that the masses are also seeing this. And Kill Your Darlings is just a tome of your guys' creative genius. I just hit my mic. I apologize. God. I'm excited to see what you guys do next. We haven't really teased anything yet.

I don't know if you guys even want to. We'll give you guys a moment here. in just a second to do that if you want to. But I don't know. This is coming out during New York. There might be an announcement at New York. We don't actually know 100 percent for sure or not. Okay. Cool announcement at New York. Yeah, I think you'll know about one. We have we have several things coming next year. You're not going to be able to spit without hitting us. It is going to be insane. It is going to be insane.

We're going to go from one year where it's like, here's the thing. And then. And then it's going to be like, here's a billion things. Just jumping in with both feet. Huh? Yes. Including we have already announced that we have a book with Bob Quinn that we're doing. We're doing another one with him. so the band's getting back together. Yes. So stay tuned folks. Awesome. Well, once again, thank you both so much. I'm going to pass the buck off to you guys one more time before we head out of here.

Griffin, I will start with you. Is there anything that you want to plug or highlight or tease or whatever before we let you go? Listen to a really great podcast called the Oblivion Bar. The two super cool, super handsome guys. You should go check them out. Very bonafide. Give them a listen. Bonafide, yes. No, thank you so, so much for having us. That's copyrighted. I would also like to plug a podcast that I've been listening to called the Oblivion Bar.

It's two guys and their tools pulling things from the ether. It's true. that that's beautiful. think that's how it's meant to be. Thank you guys so much. Really, really appreciate you. Literally, this is always like some of the best times we have doing this stuff. You guys are excellent. Really, really appreciate it. Well, I highly doubt this is the last time that you guys will be on the Oblivion Bar. We'll definitely have you back on for whether it be other things.

Again, you guys are gonna be so busy next year. I would imagine we're gonna have some excuse to have you back on. But even if we don't, we can bring you back on for whatever. I feel like we could have easily just bullshitted our way. through this hour if we really wanted to. But we could. We are. I'll speak for Aaron. I don't know if you want to say anything, but I will say from both of us, we're excited to see you both at New York Comic Con.

Again, we're speaking to you guys all from the past, but hopefully by the time you guys are all listening to this right now, the listeners, we have all already hung out together at some point or just said hi or taking a picture or giving a hug at some point. That's all I that's all I really need. So, Aaron. Yeah, we'll have you back on for the substance to review. No, I think, I think Ethan, you're not going to be at New York Comic Con.

I unfortunately have canceled my appearance in New York Comic Con. Too big for it. I started a medical soul fucking monologue. You why he's not doing lightning shoots from Ethan's fingers. Right. If they're offering me an award for Kill Your Darlings, I'm out. Like, what do I need a comic con for? What do I need? I had something else come up, but I hope you guys have a lovely time and I'll be back next year. You'll be with us in spirit. Yeah. Totally, totally a pleasure.

you know, having you guys come on again, just as Chris said, just to emulate into to echo what he said, a fantastic job, especially like a breakaway, you know, your break into the scene. I mean, you can't really do better than, a nomination for an Iser fucking a, know, that's crazy. So I mean, you could have won it, but that would be could have won. That's true. Where do you go from there? Exactly. Don't give it to us this time. Do you?

They're like some guy in the back was like, these guys really deserve it. But we can't fuck. We don't want to be. They're nice guys. They're going to be hated if they win. You know, they want you to get to be welcomed to the community, loved by other creators. So they did it for you, man. You. So no, but seriously, awesome job. Looking forward to meeting you, Ethan, at some point in person. Griffin meeting you next, or shit, this coming week. So crazy how quickly it came upon us, pun intended.

you know, it's just, Chris, I'll let you handle that one. Yeah. Well, thank you guys so much. We appreciate it. We will see you the next time you're here. Sweet. Thanks, guys. Thank you. All righty. There's that conversation with Griffin and Ethan. Once again, thank you both so much for joining us here. Again, just, we love this book so much everybody. It is a book that we very similar to Zawa.

When we talked to Michael D'Alenos earlier this week, killer darlings is one those books that I just am so happy to champion. Aaron. It's one those books that, when I have someone who is looking for a recommendation, it's, it's one those easy recommendations. As I said earlier, it's something that I can hand them and I know for a fact, they're going to find something that they enjoy. And, I think I can speak for you here. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

I'm just excited to see what they do next. And they sort of tease it a little bit there at the end of the conversation where they say that they have a lot of things coming up in 2025. I'm very excited to see what they do next in the comic world. Absolutely. Not only just because they're just like good dudes, but also because they can obviously, you know, spin a yarn. They can tell a tale, you know?

And the fact that, you know, you heard it during the interview, they're going to be working with Bob Quinn again, which means you're going to get those fantastic colors. You're going to get an amazing story, fantastic colors. It's going to be a great looking book. you know, because of their, you know, their dedication and they obviously have a real passion for the craft of comic writing. You know, I don't expect anything that's going to fall short.

wouldn't, they, they're not, the one thing that I want to say about this conversation that I really didn't get to kind of touch on during the conversation was when you hear them talking about putting kind of parameters on their writing, and really like fixating on the basics and kind of the advice that other writers gave them. They really stuck to it. Like they didn't decide to go do their own thing. You know, they took what the masters have done before them and they really applied it.

And I, and I love the fact that it turned out so well for them. So I think they obviously have a great friendship, a great dynamic, and I think we can expect great things from them in the future. Yeah. It's also very inspiring as someone who works in this sort of sort of the sandbox. you know, that you and I do where we will often talk to creators or we'll review movies and comics.

And we sort of live in this space of comic journalism, even though I would never ever consider us to be comic journalists because we're not, we don't critique these things in sort of a, we don't, we don't critique the medium in, like, in a, I would say like a progressive way. What you and I do, I think here on the oblivion bar is more of a sort of a celebration of the medium. You know, we, we like to pick the brains. more, we approach this for much more of a, a, like a curiosity. Right.

Absolutely. Yeah. We're not here to critique anything really. And at least not from like an outright standpoint. People that critique like an industry that they have not really like participated in fully like to the depth of the creators that are within it. That seems silly. Like I don't have I can't critique your your your creativity. I've never made a movie so I can't create. I mean I can critique a movie that I enjoy or don't like.

But you know I'm not going to go in there be like well your angles are at the worst, you know? I think if I can build off it just a little bit, because I do want to slightly correct. We do critique here. I mean, we do movie reviews, we do series reviews, video game reviews, all the things. But I think what you're saying is like, we don't destroy anything. Like we're not here to tell you whether you should buy or not buy these things or read or not read or watch or whatever.

We just kind of give you our thoughts on it because it's a fun conversation. I guess that's our way of critiquing. But my whole point in saying all this is that it's very inspiring to see both Griffin and Ethan succeed in the world of comics as writers because they started off in this play sort of in this playground. Like they started off in the podcasting world, you know, working with different, you know, Matthew Rosenberg and Donny Cates and Ryan Stegman and Brian Michael Bendis.

They, they sort of run a lot of their sub stacks. think they still do that even to this day. And it's again, I mean this in the most respectful way possible, but if folks like Griffin and Ethan and sort of jump over into the world of comics, it gives a little bit of motivation for folks like you and I or anyone else. to do this. Like they, you can do this. They've shown that you can do this.

If you have the wits about you and you have the creativity and the work ethic and all the things that require that. Yeah. The dedication man. Cause yeah, when they talk about the stress and the talk about like, you know, sitting in like a hotel room and kind of like figuring things out and like cutting stuff. And like, just can't imagine. can't imagine what that would feel like. Yeah. Well that'll do it for day four of New York Comic-Con interview. And we will.

Be back tomorrow for our final day, Aaron want WAMP day five. It's not, it's not sad though. It's fun because we're going to be joined by Sean van Gorman and Joey Esposito talking about all things pedestrian. And Aaron, this is a conversation that you had by yourself. I am super excited for everybody here. This one I've been, I've been trying to get Joey and Sean on the show, trying to get them, you know, especially during, after our hiatus, get them nailed down to a, to a time.

and, you know, just two incredible creators, two incredible guys. And I'm excited for people to hear all about the pedestrian in, out and around, know? Yeah. I mean, I've been editing that episode the last couple of days and it is a good conversation, everybody. So make sure you guys stick around for that tomorrow. That'll be day five of our interview. But that'll do it for day four. That'll do it for episode 169. Aaron, please take us out of here. All right.

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It's I mean, it shouldn't be taxed. I mean, I agree. But I think that anytime that you have both sides agreeing on something, that means it's not going to happen. That's the way I see it, guess. But anyway, we're not going to get political here on the show. I just think it was funny that they've been pushing that. 20 % or more, everybody, make sure you guys do that. And thank you so much for listening to the Oblivion Bar podcast. Thank you for listening to Interview-a-thon slash Guess Fast.

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