MOVIE REVIEW: Sinners & Warfare w/ Brad Gullickson

Hey, this is Michael Avon-Oming, the combo creator of titles like Powers, Blue Book, and William of Newberry, and you are listening to the Oblivion Bar podcast. you Welcome to the Oblivion Bar podcast with your host Chris Hacker and Aaron Knowles. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 190 of the Oblivion Bar podcast.

I'm your guy who doesn't need Eric Pritz 2000 EDM classic call on me to show up to Jazzercise class on time, Chris Hacker, and joining me is the finest guitar player this side of the Mason Dixon, my co-host and BFF, Aaron Knowles. Well, you keep on dancing with the devil. One day he's gonna follow you home. That's right, brother. Welcome everybody back to the Oblivion Bar podcast. Aaron and I are not alone this week. We had to bring in the big guns, talk about these two incredible films.

watching me. You know, again, as you probably saw, as you clicked on the episode, we are talking about centers and warfare, sort of a double feature on the Oblivion Bar podcast. you know, this week, two very different films, two very excellent films that we're going to have very different discussions on, I'm sure. And speaking of the discussions, we had to bring it again, as I said, the big guns joining us over from the Comic Book Couples Counseling sitting in the third chair.

One of our BFFs in the comic book world, Brad Gullickson is joining us here for episode 190. Welcome, Brad. Hello? I have had to tell myself a mantra before coming on to this podcast I had to do like, you know some unique New York's and the arsonist has oddly shaped feet and Brad let them talk It's not your show. It's not your show. It's not your show So yeah, I feel like I'm in good behavior to guests today That's it.

I don't can't remember It's really hard, I know, when you're sitting in chair one and you're on another podcast, Aaron will tell you, because we recently appeared on Comics and Chronic with our good friend Anthony and Anthony and co. And I immediately, got about 35 minutes into our conversation about Wonder Woman Dead Earth. And I'm like, okay, let me take this over. So anyway, Anthony, when you were, know, that's what we do, right? Yeah, you know, I am the mouth dork for a reason.

I do not shut up. I'm gonna, I'm really trying to change in my elder years. So we'll see, we'll see. I'm just going to throw this out there also. Brad Gullickson is the most huggable podcaster in the business. I don't even know if he's okay with am okay with that, I've worked very hard on this huggable body. I aspire to that level. Yeah. Aaron, you're like a very close second, I'll say. Thank you. Closer to second than first.

Brad, briefly, I'm sure folks, gosh, everyone, you're listening to this right now and you have not listened to Comic Book Couples Counseling, I don't know what to tell you. Shame on you firstly. But for the layman, will you please tell folks briefly what CBCC is? And then also tell me what it was like to talk to Grant Morrison last week. Ha Comic Book Couples Counseling is a podcast that I do with my lovely wife Lisa. We've been doing it for the last five years.

It is, you know, it's a comic book show. We talk comics. Usually we have a guest on to discuss a comic that they have created. This past week we celebrated Superman Day by having Grant Morrison on the show to talk all-star Superman. This is a conversation that I never thought we would actually have and the fact that we were able to pull it off and make it happen. And then the conversation itself was so wonderful. mean, you know, lifetime highlight, honestly. Yeah, and it is excellent.

I, you know, I listened to the moment it popped on Patreon and I can't recommend folks enough to go and listen to that because again, not only does Grant not often do interviews, especially podcasts, but again, as you said, the conversation is excellent. And, you know, we've talked about this, you know, through texts and such. think we got a similar feeling. Aaron knows this not too long ago when we had Brian K. Vaughn on the show.

When you get these big creators on and you're able to talk to them. just have the chance to talk to them. Wow, what a moment. But also what if that conversation turns out incredible? And that's what happened with you guys with Grant. And I just couldn't be happier for you. know, I do think that that conversation actually pairs well with a lot of what is being explored in both Sinners and Warfare.

know, these two movies, while they don't necessarily look like they share a lot in common, when you just look at the log line, they are both films that are looking to our past to talk very much about our current moment. And our conversation with Grant Morrison in exploring Superman and All-Star Superman is also a conversation that's about this current moment by looking back, you know, 87 years over the life of Kal-El Superman.

If the listeners that are listening right now, which I know they are all listening very intently, go listen to the comic book couples counseling podcast and also make sure you take a box of tissues and a loved one and prepare yourself because I made the mistake of the first time I ever listened to CBCC. I was driving from Tennessee to New York and I was in the van alone by myself just driving for hours and I'm like listening and I'm just, know, holy shit.

I am like self analyzing, I'm going through everything, like my relationships, my past. And at one point I was just bawling. I was just bawling because you guys explore some real emotions through real texts, through real comics, through books and through in-depth methodology. And it's like, it's an incredible show. Thank thank you, thank thank thank you. Yeah, yeah, you know, we don't try to make you cry every episode, but it does happen. Speaking of crying, Aaron, I mean, well, go ahead.

We're going to say. Well, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, happy tears. Here we go. Here's some happy oblivion bar tears, because everybody a couple of things have happened since the last time we were able actually sit down and talk to all of you over the last week. Not only do we get one incredible sponsor, but we have two here. Aaron, tell the folks our very first sponsor. Who did we get somehow? How do we trick them into partnering with us here on the Oblivion Bar podcast? Pop Rocks.

Pop rocks, yes, thank God for them. We got Oni press the loudest. Whoa. whoa. Yeah. Like you're like surprised. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The loudest thing in comics, you know, since 1997. First off, we are incredibly thankful that they decided to partner with us. And, know, the, the representative that we've been speaking to, I don't know if we want to drop his name or anything, Chris, he'll let you do it. Hey, fantastic.

Like the relationship we're already building with I mean, we already have a great relationship with lot of Oni as a Patrick Horvath spin on the show recently. Tyler Crook and Christopher Cantwell has been on recently. Yeah, especially, you know, in the last, like I'd say five or six episodes, we've had a weird amount of only press just like that was not part of it. Yeah, were just coming on because only press is putting out incredible books right now.

Yes. my God. we love talking about incredible books. And so this is a very exciting time for us here at the Oblivion Bar. Couldn't ask for a better small press publisher to partner with going into 2025. As we've sort of said already, you know, looking at the slate that they have coming out, you know, of course they have their Scott Pilgrims, you know, they're they're known for having their occasional mega hit OGN, but then they have the EC comics as well. Only press.

What an incredible publisher. I only see them doing more incredible things. And everyone listens right now. The week that this episode releases, go over to add oblivion bar pod and we're going to have an Pretty incredible giveaway to celebrate not only our partnership with only press, but also our five year anniversary, which was on April 16th. So be on the lookout for that.

Along with that, Aaron, we also partnered with one of our favorite local comic book shops out in St. Louis, Missouri, Endless Comics Games and Cards. This is a relatively new partnership. But Scott Sampson over there, former peer over at the fantasy shop when I used to work there in St. Louis, he has since moved over to Endless Comics and he reached out. He said, hey, I like what you guys are doing at the Oblivion Bar. I said, we've been wanting to hitch our wagon to a local comic book shop.

Because again, we believe in that brick and mortar space, the community that local comic book shops bring. That's right. You got to keep those communities alive. There's too many forces outside outside forces that are destroying places like this. So if we can help prop them up, that's what we want to do. And they're going to be sponsoring Chris's Corner going forward along with normal ad reads here and there.

So. Big, big shout out to Oni Press and Endless Comics for joining us over here at the Oblivion Bar podcast. One more small piece of housekeeping. Aaron, tell the folks how they can support the Oblivion Bar podcast. If you want to support the oblivion bar podcast, consider checking out our Patreon for your support.

can gain access to bonus episodes each week called the grid and behind the scenes look at how we prepare each episode with episode transcripts and Patreon polls and a whole bunch of other exclusive goodies like giveaway free shit. We do it all the time. Come get it. Give a shot with a seven day free trial at patreon.com forward slash oblivion bar pod or check out the link in the show notes. Wow. That was a machine man. That was great. I like it. All right. Let's move on everybody again.

Check the show notes if you to sort through balloon bar podcasts. Real quick, before we get into these reviews, can I ask both of you really quick? Where do we start? Do we go with warfare or do we go with centers? What do you think? I want to go centers. I'm just going to go right off the bat with centers. first, Brad, what are your thoughts? You know, both are great movies, in my opinion. have it. I don't want to spoil everyone's opinions here. I don't know how you two feel.

think Chris likes them both. But Aaron hasn't said I enjoyed them both. I can talk about both at any moment. Drop of a hat. All right, well, with that being said, let's go ahead and get into centers then. main topic.

Alrighty, let's talk about Sinners, the brand new Ryan Coogler film. Spoilers ahead, also, we should just broadly say both for warfare and for Sinners, big spoilers, we're just gonna talk about it all in depth. Let's not waste time dancing around it. So Brad, since you're sitting in our third chair and you're the guest here, initial thoughts on Sinners.

Yeah, I understand that we're gonna be doing spoilers, but I just would highly encourage your listeners to please go and see the film because there are some twists and turns in this movie that I would not want you to have ruined for you. You know, I am a person that doesn't necessarily like feel like spoilers should rule all narratives. Like I think, you know, you don't really even know how you feel about a movie until you've watched a film two or three times.

But just go and watch it and go watch it on like the biggest screen you possibly can. If you do have an IMAX, if you're one of like the lucky 10 cities that has the IMAX 70 millimeter, go and see it. Somehow we don't here in DC, it's criminal. But I saw it on IMAX, I've seen it twice now on IMAX actually. I watched it again last night, I had to take Lisa to go see it. and she, like me, just adored this film. Yes, it's a horror movie, but it does what all genre films should do.

It's speaking to larger themes, it's incredibly layered, and there's just a lot to talk about with this flick. 100 % agree with Brad and Lisa. We're going to try and get to as much of this as possible throughout this review. We'll try and keep it as spoiler free, but there's going to be things that slip out. No, no, no, no, no, it's spoilery. Sorry, everybody. If you haven't seen this, we cannot dance around. shit, pause the shit and go see it and then, you know, push play again. OK, yes.

But my initial thoughts and I'll be, you know, as quick about this as possible is this. It's incredible. The movie itself is every it's it is more than I expected and it's more than what I wanted. And everything that I could have asked for. So I am so excited to talk about this film because and yes, biggest screen you can see it on with the best speakers that you can hear because the music and the just everything goes into this. It's such a, what do call it? Like a phonic experience.

This movie is so- It uses all the tools of movies. Exactly. It is absolutely like a cinematic, like just adventure. And I, and I am so excited for people to see this movie because I absolutely am thrilled about how well it went. to echo both Brad and Aaron here. It tingles every single part of your senses while watching it, right? it gives you a little Peter tingle, right? And, you know, again, the cinematography is absolutely insane. We'll talk about that. The composer absolutely is top notch.

Obviously Ryan Coogler from behind the camera. Maybe the best he's been ever? Question mark like, yeah. And the talent, of course, like you could also make a strong argument. This is this is Michael B. Jordan's best film, best role that he's ever. ever been in the top to bottom. Yeah. Plural, plural roles. Yeah. You know, this movie while watching it almost from the jump, because, you know, and we'll talk about it here in just a moment.

But as Brad mentioned, some lucky folks, me being one of them, got to see this in 70 millimeter, which is according to Ryan Coogler, the optimal way to see this film. And from the moment you see Preacher Boy, you know, drive up that driveway in front of that church, you can just see it.

In front of you how important this is this is what I think ron ryan wanted needed to tell this story, he needed to tell it his way and sort of the journey about how he went about telling it his way is not only like I'm trying to try to figure out the best way to describe this, Not only does it work out in his favor, but it's the movie is better for it because of it Right, like if if folks were able to get as much access to every single

weapon that they could in their toolbox to make a movie like this, we as film goers would be much better for it, right? And it comes at a time too where Minecraft is currently the world leader in box office. you know, Brad, I don't know if you have you seen the Minecraft? it my friend. okay. Not a bad option. You're one of the only people in the world that did because it's it's killing right now. It's got I think it's close to 700 million already and it's only been in theaters for two weeks.

So it'll hit a billion. It'll be the first billion dollar movie of the year. And as Aaron, I talked about in our previous review of of Minecraft movie. Well, that movie is pretty bad overall. It does something really important for me, which is brings people to the movie theater. It's getting folks to go out to the movie theater and it's helping in some way. Hopefully Hollywood doesn't learn the wrong lessons.

Hopefully this movie makes a ton of money that way they learn that lesson and not make more Minecrafts. But point being is that what a juxtaposition that this movie and what Warcraft is to compare to what like most movie goers are shelling out for, I guess. So Aaron, for the layman, of course, as we often do here in these reviews, go ahead and let's do an overview of centers.

trying to leave their troubled lives behind when brothers return to their Mississippi hometown to start over, only to discover that an unknown evil is waiting to welcome them back. Yes. And among among other things, right? Like that's very basic cable description. Brad, you mentioned that there are like multiple facets in this movie. Again, looking at that synopsis. Sure. You know, the the twins, as they're known in the movie, the smokestack twins, you know, they come back to their hometown.

They chose to leave Chicago to come back to their hometown. Did they? Brad, that's I think that's been my first question for you is your read. We don't really get a definitive answer in this movie. We get speculation, but. What? Do we do you think we do? Good. I was going to shift it to Brad, but good. Okay. I mean, so they literally, like they have to discussion in there where they, where they talk about where the money came from. they robbed two different gangs that they were working for.

They basically played them and the woman said that, when they figure it out, they're going to come down here and they're going to kill you. Like that's why they had to leave. They had no choice but to come home and try and create something back at home. not knowing the evil that not only is already at home, but the evil that's going to be coming back. And they said it in the beginning of the movie, we chose to come home to the evil that we knew and they didn't know shit. Fred?

mean, what's great about the film is we don't have it all spelled out for us. I mean, there's Irish beer and Italian wine that they're selling at their juke joint. So, they got that stuff from two places in Chicago. that element, their history, whatever happened in Chicago, that's just enough there to tantalize.

What's great about this movie is there's so much story beyond its runtime, and you can go down into all of these different... paths and imagine, you know, an entire universe of Sinners related tales. And, you know, that's one of the great things that Ryan Coogle has always been able to do in his filmmaking. I think he just takes it to the next level with with this one.

And, you know, what's great about Sinners, what is honestly like one of the most surprising elements about Sinners is the time that it takes to tell its story, to tell its setup before the horrific stuff starts to happen. And I would say the best scene in the movie is not a horror scene at all. It has almost nothing to do with the horror element. And then the movie goes into its next reel. I mean, this is very much like From Dusk Till Dawn, right?

Like the Robert Rodriguez, Quinn Tarantino joint. It has almost the same structure in a lot of ways, but it's Ryan Coogler topping Tarantino and Rodriguez. Yeah, right. That's that was what I absolutely thought as a reference of this was absolutely from dusk till dawn because we get a, you know, we get a kind of a family unit stuck in this in this building trying to fight off and survive. And so it's just, very, very similar.

Yeah. I mean, and I've even heard some people, Aaron, you're going to love this because we covered it one year for our Halloween special. I've even seen some comparisons to Night of the Demon, the Tales from the Crypt movie, the schlocky 90s movie where they're stuck in the hotel with Billy Zane. Demon Knight, friend. Demon Knight, great. And I love Ernest Dickerson as a filmmaker. That's one of my all time favorite movies. could like, yeah. We're getting. way.

Yeah. Definitely quality difference between, you know, those both dust till dawn and centers. Different vibe. Right. You quality is maybe not the best way to say that, because I mean, there's definitely quality in now. Now I'm all messed up. Demon Knight, Demon Knight. There's definitely quality there. It's just a different type of quality. It's it's asking a lot of different questions, but I want to go back a little bit. Aaron, you mentioned how the brothers come back on their own, right?

Like they chose to come back to Mississippi. I found myself wondering why, right? Like they have this money, they have all this, they have imports, you know, the different liquors and such. Why do they choose? Like that's what's really burning me. You mentioned it because it's the devil they know, which you again, you sort of alluded to the fact that like they eventually find the devil that they don't. I just am curious and I've done this even myself as someone who has left home multiple times.

Aaron, you have as well. I guess we would be the two people to ask, right? Because You've left home and never gone back. And I have left home twice and gone came back to Indiana both times. Why do think that is? So what you think for the movie, it's. correlation with the movie, where's the sort of through line there? So, okay. For me, the way that I understood this storyline is if you look at it, where is the best place in the, this time of, know, we're just coming out of slavery.

There's not a lot of, there's no, a lot of, of, you know, well, no, we're not. So, okay. If you go back and look during slave times, like during, you know, indentured servitude, Jim Crow era, there was a lot of tracking of, you know, slaves. So there were sales records, there was notes, all this stuff. So now you have it where all these, all these slaves are now no longer indentured servitude. They've been released. They're kind of working these, these, these homesteads as groups.

And now they're just larger communities that will defend themselves and will take care of their own as a black community. What's a better place to hide from outside, like outside enemies than in your own community or in your own hometown where people will probably protect you also. You know, they're not looking to come down there and create any more animosity in the South.

Yeah, I asked the question because of course I have an answer for it because you know, I came back to Indiana because it's comfortable. But these two men were in the north where they're free. mean, free in quotations. They come back to the south in Mississippi and arguably maybe one of the roughest parts of the south where they are so not in their element. I mean, we meet that in the very beginning. We meet literally the leader of the Kukas clan.

We don't know that, but like we meet him in the first couple of scenes of the movie. They are not safe there. And yet they come back. I just, there's something there. What do you think? you know, they have that conversation as well. You know, the plantations aren't there. There's just taller buildings, know, like, you know, whatever they had been sold, what the North was going to be, what Chicago was going to be, what, you know, bootlegging with Al Capone was going to be, it didn't work.

Yeah, we don't know exactly what happened, but the impression that I get, and again, this is what's great about the movie, is we're asking these questions like, well, what did happen? We don't know. But one of the great things about the movie is that these characters are lying to themselves and each other all the time. that is explicitly revealed at the end in terms of the guitar.

But when they say like, well, it's better to come down to the devil we know, that's Stack talking to his little cousin. And in those conversations early on with his little cousin, Preacher Boy, there's a lot of like... boasting that's happening. They're really trying to play themselves up like they're, you know, big-time gangsters. They came back, they won Chicago, and now they're gonna, you know, return home in victory and win down here. And, you know, it doesn't go that way.

It probably was never going to go that way whether there was a horror element or not. Right because of the era they live in there's no way you can win. I mean, well, mean, yeah, I was going say exactly what, what, what Brad says. Like in the morning they would have been dead anyways, cause they wouldn't have, there was going to be no, well they were under, but also the Klu Klux Klan was, was coming to come and kill them the next morning. So like it was not, it was, it was not a safe bet.

They took a bet. They bet on, they, they, they did the whole Russian roulette thing that robbed the mob, robbed the, you know, and then came back and they're like, Hey, we're going to, no, yeah, it's, I love how just chaotic the story is just the hard landing that these two take into this town. And they think that, you know, they're going to come and hopefully with their reputation make it big. And it's just not going to, it's not going to help out. It's not going to their favor.

Aaron, I love the fact that you mentioned chaotic because one thing that I've realized while watching this movie is that none of, we again, we have a master behind the camera and Ryan Coogler, this man has sculpted this movie to every right angle is tight. He has sculpted this movie to perfection and it's like not a mistake that this movie takes place in Clarksdale, Mississippi in 1932, right? I'm going to give you a little bit of detail.

You guys tell me where, if you guys want to stop, but I want to just give a little backstory on why I think Ryan Coogler decided to play centers in this time era and in this, you know, the state, this town, what have you. So deep in the throes of Jim Crow, the movement of large numbers of black families were both, to and from Clarksdale as a prominent pillar in that city's history. After World War I plantation owners actually encouraged black folks after the Jim Crow era to move.

to other parts of Mississippi for work. Don't just stay here, go somewhere else for obvious reasons. By the time, or by that time, Clarksdale had become the home to multiple different types of ethnic backgrounds, cultural backgrounds, mixtures of Lebanese and Italian and Chinese and Irish and Jewish. All these immigrant folks came to this town as like a hub of almost like a melting pot, like sort of a miniature America in a way. And we see that in the movie.

Some people might watch this and go, wow, why, you know, there's a Chinese family running three, like two or three shops in this small town. Why is that? That seems, is it just Ryan Coogler doing DEI? No, this it's historically accurate. This is what was going on at that time.

And then sort of to build off that, there's a legend about this town, about Clarksdale, a Freeman named Bill Peace, who had served in the Union army, had returned to Clarksdale after the war, pursued his former owner and allowed him to form a security force. to prevent theft on the plantation. So Bill Peace used his military know-how to essentially act as a force around this plantation. He must have had a good relationship with his former slave owner. Who knows what the backstory is there.

I couldn't find any info on that. However, on October 9th, 1875, whites, a majority of the whites there in Clarksdale began hearing rumors that General Peace, I called him General Peace as a nickname, was preparing his troops to plunder the town. So, you know, again, Bill Peace comes to town, creates this sort of militia to protect his former owner's plantation. Some white folks hear about this and they go, not in my town.

And they prepare basically their own militia to suppress Peace's quote unquote revolt across Mississippi. The white militia then frequently, you know, took down these folks and even killed Bill Peace in that moment. again, these two actual historical moments that happened in Clarksdale, I think were a direct influence on Kugler and his formation of this original story. All right, let's move on here. Let's see here. So, Brad, you mentioned you went to see this twice in IMAX, is correct?

Yes. Aaron, how did you see it? I saw it IMAX. I went to an early screener. So an IMAX, okay. How are your guys's audiences? The first audience was in Silver Spring, Maryland, and it was on fire. Like, it was one of the best theatrical experiences I've ever experienced. And there are some very horny moments in this movie that we all appreciated. And it was the type of film where you had the crowd going, you know, speaking back to the movie.

not in a disruptive way, but in conversation with the film. And the screams of the audience also became part of the score as well. It was just beautiful. And then last night, Lise and I went to see a 10 o'clock mall screening at Tyson's Corner Mall in McLean, Virginia. And there was like 20 of us and we were quiet. and we all enjoyed it in our own silent ways. Which just means that I got to really hear Lisa crying at the end. She was very loud. Hahaha. Aaron, how about you?

How was your this is also like a reoccurring brand. I don't know if you're familiar, but this is like a reoccurring segment for Aaron and I, where we discuss our audience during that particular movie, because it varies to generally horrible to normal, you know, like that's how it goes. And the audience experiences so much about the movie itself. That's the color of going to the movies. I had a better than normal experience.

I did have quite a few people that wanted to speak during the film or to the film. And so that was a little bit slightly disruptive. And then at one point I'm just like, fuck it. I'm gonna get into it also. I just, I don't care anymore. So I was kind of like, you know, cause I think the one thing that was really disruptive was the fact that I had somebody next to me who during the scene where they were picking cotton, Uh, was like, no, I didn't come here for this. I just lost my appetite.

And I'm just like, this is historical. Like this is pretty fucking accurate. And you know, you should probably respect what we have all got and gone through for all this. Cause it was, you know, very large, largely a black crowd, you know? And it's like, for me, when I see things like this, as long as it's done respectfully and it's done, you well, you know, I, portrayed the way it's portrayed. know, it's important. It's part of the story.

It is about this black community also trying to support itself and trying to be, you know, trying to be masters of their own destiny. it's like, want to like say that this like you should be, you should be like absorbing this, you know? Have a little decorum, right? Like, let's be mature about this, please. You know, in my instance, and I sort of hinted at earlier, you know, I actually saw this in 70 millimeter at downtown Indy, Aaron, where you and I went to see quantum mania.

I will say this movie is a far better movie than quantum mania. you know, Quantum mania catching strays. Yeah, no, it was a it was an incredible viewing experience, not only because the crowd was great, but again, and we'll talk about here in just a moment. Because Ryan cooler goes into he's been going on like a press tour about the changes of aspect ratios in this film again specifically during the 70 millimeter viewing our Our print was number five.

It was that either only ten prints made of the 70 millimeter in the entire world So we had print number five. I hate you we were the second viewing of print number five and And just so to put this in perspective everybody and this is me being a total asshole. There are only 12 Theaters in the entire US that can show 70 millimeter. Aaron, you actually have a theater in your, or you have two theaters in your town, New York City, that can play those 70 millimeter. This small town. This small town.

I think it's Lincoln is one of them, but I don't know where the other one is. Square. Yeah. But yeah, it was amazing. And, you know, a little small sidebar is that I went by myself, of course, and I was sandwiched between two black couples. And, you know, you could, it almost felt at certain times in the movie that you could sort of cut the tension. with a butter knife, right? Like it was again, as you said, Aaron, a mostly black, you know, audience, which was great. And everyone was awesome.

But, know, being like the only one of the, would say like there were probably less than 10 % of the people in the crowd were white. You know, there were definitely, no, no, no, never felt, never felt danger. You just see the Ku Klux Klan uniform. You're just like looking around like, fuck, I'm not making it out of here.

There are scenes where at the end they're all, and again, we already put spoilers out there, but you have smoke mowing down the Ku Klux Klan in a very Django Unchained type of grotesque way. I mean, it was very satisfying. celebratory I would say. Yeah. And again, as you should, I mean, it was it was a very like relieving moment for him to sort of come out of the woods and be prepared in that sense.

But, know, again, as a white dude in that crowd, you're like, oh, you know, yes, I'm one of us, one of you know, like I am. I'm celebrating with you guys in that way. But yeah. And again, I wanted to mention, you know, Ryan Cooler has been talking about how, this film, changes very vividly throughout it. There's a really awesome video that I will link in the show notes where Ryan Cooler sat down with Kodak to talk about.

sort of the change between, know, was it one, and Brad, you might be able to help me out here. think it's like 120. I can't get all the ratios correct. It is a education. This Kodak video, it's like 11 minutes long. And if you've ever wondered why people care about widescreen and box ratio and all that stuff, like why is A24 always doing this? This is the education.

And what's great about that video is he doesn't make you feel bad for not being in one of these glorious cities that has the 70 millimeter IMAX. Yeah, he shows you that all like all the options you have and the truth is like, you know, most people watch this movie are not going to have your experience and that's fine because the limax that I saw at the mall still delivered on the ratio changes and still had the emotional impact that he was looking for and he explains that in the video.

So, you know, it's yeah, it's just he takes you to school and then he takes you to church and it's great. know how in depth we're going to get into the storyline, but there's a couple of things that I really, really wanted to talk about and discuss throughout this. before we get into the story really at all, much deeper. The one thing I want to say is, and Chris, you keep mentioning that Kugler is like a master behind the camera. There are some of these shots that just get set up.

there's when they're drive. So first off, when they're driving down the road through the field and it's just beautiful colors, the colors are popping. It's cinematic. You got the scene where you're, know, preacher boys playing the guitar in the passenger seat and you know, Michael B. Jordan's just in the front seat and he just looks at him.

He's just like, you think, and it's so great because the way that they have the actors kind of react to preacher boys playing is like, you almost feel like they're under a spell, which, you know, the lore of this film is that there are people in our world, like in society, that are able to use music. to bridge the gap between life and death, basically bring back, you know, bring spirits from the future, from the past.

And it feels like every time this music is played, everybody just like, there's this moment where you just feel like everybody is hypnotized. You just feel like everybody is so caught on every single note. it's almost, like, it's the moment itself isn't contained to the screen. It flows into the audience. And like there was every time a song started, every time somebody picked up a guitar, I was just like, I was just like enjoying the music so well and so deeply.

And the fact that it was like beautiful and well done. The, the you link in the show notes, the sinners official playlist and the music for this movie is incredible, especially in IMAX. Imagine watching this movie in Dolby. Yeah, that would have been an experience. And then the last thing that I'm really going to point out for again, I let somebody else talk because I'm rambling is. Self awareness is part of the, it's a part of it, Aaron. There is this scene and I know you go, okay.

I know you're. Are we getting to the scene already? I know the scene you're about to say and I swear to God if you haven't watched this film yet For the love of God watch this don't have this room No. Yeah. This is a yeah. Aaron, go ahead.

Yeah, please listen to Brad and listen to us like pause this and like don't listen further but the scene with it with the in the dance hall when the when the when the barn catches fire Pale pale moon that was honestly one of the most incredible experiences in a movie I've ever had Yes, this is mild Canton's first movie ever by the way the music to this, the, to the, the way that they blended them, the different styles of music, the different cultures.

And again, I was going to mention this, but the shot, way that the camera is flowing through so much of these scenes is so incredible. And then to have this barn burned down during this whole magnanimous occasion, like event, just like it's such, it's like poetry in motion. It is one of the greatest movie sequences I've ever seen. I'm 45 years old. I've been watching movies since I was zero. Like I saw Empire Strikes Back right out of the womb. My mom couldn't wait to watch Empire Strikes Back.

I'm like an infant infant and I'm in the theater watching Empire Strikes Back. That's how long I've been watching movies. I watch hundreds of movies a year. And this is one of the greatest movie moments I've ever experienced, especially in that first crowd that I saw in Silver Spring at the Regal Majestic.

When, cause what's awesome about it is like, okay, so you've already mentioned the lore and the lore is explained in a short little animated sequence that kicks off the movie, how there are these people who can connect time and space through song, through. through art, and this is a film that is about art and the importance of art, and the vitality of art, and how we need art, and art will save us.

And the moment in this movie when that sequence starts, because we've already heard Miles' voice, Preacher Boy has this incredible voice, that sequence in the car with the guitar, and how that scene isn't even paid off until the mid-credits sequence, in the middle of the credits, like we don't even understand. how awesome that seat is until the mid-credit sequence? Like, who does that? Who pays something off in the mid-credits? Not Marvel.

And so we get to this dance hall, he starts going off, and we hear, you know, Smokes, Lady Love explain the mythology again, and then we get a scene of Delroy Lindo, the old bluesman, you know, explaining. the power that Miles, that Preacher Boy has. And we hear like, and you know, it can connect the past and we're coming over and we see people from the musicians from the past come into frame and start to perform with Preacher Boy.

And then we hear her say, and the future and we get this Bootsy Collins guy come in through the electric guitar. I burst into tears because I knew where we were going. And then we have this musical tour through history. all in that dance hall as it magically burns to the ground and the camera goes up, pulls back, and then we see the interlopers observing and lusting over what Preacher Boy has and can do with their little banjos and whatnot. God damn, that's movies.

And what I love is a story that uses its medium to its fullest effect. If you adapt Sinners, into a comic book, into a novel, into a stage play, that element changes and you no longer have lose something. It's a totally different thing, right? Yeah, yeah. And Ryan Coogler is showing you what movies can do and it is a glove being thrown down to the ground and calling on other filmmakers to embrace their medium, to tell their stories. Well said. Well fucking said. definitely like ditto everything.

And here's something that's really important about what you just said too, is that that scene in a less talented filmmakers hands would have flopped. Dude, nobody would have come up with it. Nobody would have come up with it. Yeah, you know, like that that scene is so Ryan Coogler because it just toes that line of like otherworldly and so personal to and again, as you mentioned, like as we as we drift outside, we see we get our very I guess.

Well, I guess secondly, it's our second look at our villains, but really are sort of, I guess, bridge into act two and where the this conflict was like this is what the movie off. Right. Yeah. And what I think is really important about that particular moment is that up to that moment, we only get really one scene of and I'm spacing his name here really. Let me look really quickly. It's a Jack O'Connell. Jack O'Connell.

Thank you. As Remick, I sort of forgot that this was a vampire movie for a minute. And again, to speak on like, This movie is so this movie is, takes so long to get to the thing that the trailer's you. And I could see somebody checking their watch. don't trust that person because everything leading up to it is gold as well. But this is a movie that's about build. This is a movie about a character and emotions and you needed that time.

Yeah. And that's, mean, I think that's why like so many people can take something out of this, especially like people from different, you know, communities, because you, when you look at the Irish aspect, when you look at the white aspect, when you look at the black aspect, the Asian aspect, like there's so much here and you're joined by this simple event that's happening in this town.

But again, like we, as the audience from our time here in the future, we are also invited into this story by the music. And I think that's one of the reasons is again, it feels so powerful is because we it is connecting our spirits to this event through the music that preacher voice is singing and it's just again. Yeah, it's it's incredible.

I feel like we should go at least right now like hit the the cast Well, think, no, well, real quick, I just want to say we're talking about this one scene and I think it's extremely important to discuss, you know, how that scene works. already we've given Ryan Coogler his flowers. We'll talk about the cast here in a moment. But I think that we have to discuss the cinematographer, the costume designer and the composer in the scene.

You know, you've got Autumn Drolan, Arch Paul, Aaron, I think it's how you say that. You know, she previously worked with Coogler on Wakanda Forever. And then more recently, Brad, I'm curious, did you see the last showgirl with Pamela Anderson? I did not. No, no. Aaron, did you check that one out? It's great. It's it's sort of a meandering slice of life about a sort of out of think like what would happen if you guys remember the movie Showgirls from the 90s? I have seen that many times. Me too.

And imagine if she imagined if that movie just fast forward to 20 years and she stayed in Las Vegas. That's what Showgirls is. It's like what happens at the end. Right. And so and it is a beautiful movie. Right. Ruth E. Carter, the calcium designer, also worked the coogler on Black Panther, What Kind of Forever. And then I want to give a very, very particular shout out because I think we all can agree movie looks great. Everybody looks historically appropriate and also sexy as fuck.

But Ludwig Gorsan. Like, is he in that upper echelon now officially if he wasn't already? was already, he already was. Absolutely incredible score. A score that he actually does kind of like the Carter Burwell thing, like Carter Burwell, you listen to the scores of like Miller's Crossing or True Grit, the Coen Brothers version, where it incorporates traditional music into something new and radical. Phenomenal. I would also shout out Hannah Beechler, the production designer on this.

All of these people, with the exception of the cinematographer, have been the crew for Ryan Coogler. And once you get in good with Ryan Coogler, Coogler has assembled his team, they're his own Avengers, and they're gonna knock it out. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Ludwig already has plenty under his belt with, you he, think he even produced for Jay Z at one point. But he also like, mean, you've seen Black Panther, the first one, you know how insane that soundtrack is.

And I believe that he scored that one as well. like he, or the man's already up there, but he did a fucking phenomenal job with this movie. prepared to like put course on in like, you know, stop me when, when you'd stop me when okay. John Williams, Mark, Silvestri, Sam, Rami, Michael Giacchino. he he's in that group, right? I mean, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. okay. Aaron, what do you think cast or box office? Where do want to go next?

Let's do box office real quick because I don't know if you know this Chris, but we still have another movie to do. All right. Let's talk about this. I'll speed through this. Okay. So I know Brad, you don't really care about the box office, right? Yep. All right. Well, it's interesting. Okay. conversation over here. Come over here. Come over here to the other side. Let's talk for a second.

Now, I think it's interesting, especially for this kind of movie, because as we spoke on earlier, Minecraft is fucking killing right now. And I want this movie to do Minecraft numbers, although it won't. And it never was going to. I still want this movie to like do well enough where Hollywood and Warner Brothers goes, OK, let's do more of these. Right. So according to Variety, centers needs to gross about hundred eighty five million worldwide to break even given its 90 million dollar budget.

That's including marketing as well. The Minecraft movie as he spoke about is likely going to win the weekend again. Unfortunately, it's projected to get about 45 million dollars in its third week. However, centers is looking to earn around 40 million domestically. So just behind there are the Minecraft movies. However, here's the caveat. Minecraft movie is being shown in forty three hundred theaters, whereas centers is only being shown in thirty three hundred.

So just over a thousand more screens. Minecraft has at its disposal. Now, here's the really, really interesting part about this whole box office situation is that. Since this is the original script and since Kugler has his stock has just been rising. I mean, you can say what you want. Temperature may vary on Wakanda forever and create three. You guys can talk about that with amongst yourselves.

I'm sure we could have a two hour long episode about those two movies specifically, uh, sort of living in that IP world that Kugler seems to make, you know, poop at it and make gems out of poop.

Right. But what Kugler set up with Warner Brothers and actually what he sort of set up with multiple studios is that he struck a deal or he's a basically put a deal out there for all of these studios and said, if you want to make centers at your particular, you know, studio house, not only do I get final cut rights, so I get to make this movie exactly what I want. He gets first dollar gross ownership, which is like Tom Cruise type of ownership.

Basically he gets a cut of the percentage right out of the box office. He doesn't worry about anything else. But, and this is the big one here, he regains the copyright to this movie, the ownership of the entire film after 25 years. of just what like it's not like an Alan Moore, Dave Gibbon situation where as long as the Warner Brothers keeps printing this movie, they keep the rights. No, Ryan gets this movie on. I have it here, April 19th, 2050.

on that Monday, Ryan is going to have a great day. And he actually spoke in this. said that this was never about power. This wasn't about like ownership of the property. It was more about like personal symbols, symbolism, and it deals directly with the source material of the film. Right. We've got a cohesion of an entire cultural movement. A piece of art is being appropriated. And Kugler definitely took this to heart. Awesome. Yeah, it's incredible.

years a novelist what's going on I hope more people do this, honestly. want more filmmakers. That's the question. Not everybody can do this. These studios, these corporations, they don't want it to happen. And what's been the reaction to this? It's been all the panic from all the other executives going like, this is a dangerous precedent. Best of luck to anyone trying to get this deal again.

The reason Coogler got this deal is because Coogler has made a lot of money for a lot of people and they want to keep making money. He is as of today, the most commercially successful black director of all time. And that's crazy to think because he's barely over 40, you know, like that is insane. So he kind of has already that that sort of pull within Hollywood. So, Aaron, let's get into the cast. It's an incredible one. Okay, the cast is as follows.

Michael B. Jordan as Elijah Smokemore and Elias Stackmore, the smokestacks twins. This is the one person I'm going to interject with this real quick. This is the one person who to me did not fit in this role, did not fit in this movie. Hailey Steinfeld as Mary. She's great. But to be honest, when I looked at her, she like did not fit the bill.

she doesn't look like you're like, she just didn't feel like she Because she's When she pulls stack in and says like come and steal this pussy like When she goes from that to vamp mode, like the change she does and the body language change, she fucking nails it. I loved Hailee Steinfeld. Also the scene where after she's gnarled on his neck a little bit and then pops up, she's like, it's not what you think it is. you.

Some of the best lines of this movie, some of the best delivery, adamantly disagree, but this ain't my podcast. First off, I'm only saying initially I didn't like her after I saw the movie. I loved her. So thank you for for for pointing out all the great things that she did to you know, basically, what's the word Chris to bring back her luster for me? You know, like her her her her. Where where does She heard she had Bumblebee? what?

I think she's she's the secret Trump for what I understand, but that'd be my Don't tell me that stuff. Sorry. Sorry. I think she follows like Ben Shapiro, somebody on Instagram. I don't know who does.

No, was just it was just honestly it was just the I want to say it was the pitch perfect three or some shit she She just didn't honestly like when I when I was like looking at the cast members like she's the only one that Initially didn't really feel like she fit the vibe but when they brought her character in and we understood more about why I I love the fact that she was an outsider, you know I love the fact that she never because that's me

like I'm I'm you know, I'm mixed so I know exactly how she feels I know exactly what it feels like to try and have friends in a black community when you, lot of people don't even look at you and think that you're black or you're not black enough. Well, she is. She's one eighth black. That's that's sort of the caveat is that her her father's mother was black. No, her father's father. was half black is the That's what saying. Like I relate to that.

So I get why like she, she at the end of the day, like she did fit very well into this role because of like her again, she, she did very well. Well, I mean, and also sidebar, and it's very important. She is also smoking. I mean, just just on front frontal look, a beautiful person. I will say and and Brad and I actually built Aaron, I love to hear his thoughts.

She sort of played in my head when when she sort of made that heel turn there halfway through the movie when she attacked stack, sort of gave me like Salma Hayek vibes from from Dustal. feel like it's like, you know, as somebody who was there opening day for From Dusk Till Dawn, saw that in the theater and had his mind blown by it. Like, I definitely was thinking a lot about From Dusk Till Dawn while watching this movie.

I was thinking a lot about John Carpenter's The Thing when watching this movie too. And yeah, like she serves a little bit of that function, but just in a different way. Sex is a weapon is I think kind of what I was thinking. The movie is very horny. And I think it's horny in a transgressive way and in a compelling way. Yeah. everybody on the screen has chemistry. Everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Miles Caton as our captain as Sammy preacher board more. What fucking first roll for him. Right.

His debut buddy guy is older Sammy Moore and you know, in the, the mid credit scene, Jack O'Connell is Remick. Okay. We need to really, once I'm done doing the, the, the cast, we need to talk about the villain and, and their, their. End it on Remick. Yeah, could probably end this conversation on Remick just so can get to warfare. Yeah. So Jack O'Connell is as Remic, one me Mo Saku as Annie. Jamie Lawson is Caroline Omar, Benson Miller is cornbread. He has not changed.

He, yeah, he is not changed. Delroy Lindo is Delta Slim. Man. He killed it. Delta Slim. Like, like Delroy Lindo was amazing in this and yeah. Lee Jun Lee as Grace Chow, Yao as Bo Chow and Lola Kirk is Joan, Peter Germanis as Bert. Real quick, Brad, do you remember Lee John Lee from Babylon? Yes! I heard Babylon was Babylon. the one that everybody said was terror. Correct, and they're all wrong. Babylon Hive, rise up! Babylon. Yeah, for real.

is. There's a scene with Margot Robbie in that movie that isn't it's a top five scene of all time where they have to keep redoing it over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. But Remick, Aaron, you want to talk about Remick? Yeah, so I want to talk about, because there's like this interesting juxtaposition. Again, we keep talking about the audio of this movie, the composition of this cinematic experience.

And one thing that was really like such a like a kind of like a contrasting juxtaposition, if that's what you want to call it, is the Irish music that, you know, because the vampires in this movie are Irish. well, the one guy's Irish for sure. The one guy is. And I think this is a very interesting lore. idea and the fact that, know, because again, my wife was asking me, why do you think the vampires were, you know, why the original vampire was Irish?

Well, and there's a couple of things, obviously, Coogler is very much tied into the Irish, like heritage and culture. But at the same time, the way that I talked to her about it was we talked about the fact that vampires tend to feed on vulnerable targets, you know, and obviously during this time frame, the black community the Irish community, because obviously this vampire was moving west. But in New York, in New England, all that area, there was a lot of Irish immigrants.

so obviously, they pulling west, they're going to feed on those more vulnerable communities, which are the black communities, which are the... Yeah, they punch down. so to me, it all was such an interesting, again, bringing together of these different... you know, demo, you know, these different demographics that are these marginalized communities, especially at this time and having them kind of. It wasn't like they're attacking them, like feeding off of them.

The vampire's whole idea was to build a community and connect with people because he was unable to die and unable to fellowship. And so you don't ever really have, whenever you think of vampires, you generally have this feeling that they're like attacking and killers and wanting to destroy everything where this guy brought almost like this biblical, like Bible thumping idea. Not Bible thumping, right?

Like that's what's so great about the ending of the movie, you know, when Preacher Boy starts to pray, because Preacher Boy's about to die, he's gonna become a vampire, he's gonna be brought into the fellowship, and he starts doing the Deliver Us from Evil thing, and then all the vampires start to mock the Deliver Us from Evil thing back. powerful scene. Such a powerful scene. Remit goes like, yo, these words, I know these words well.

When I hear them, they bring me comfort now, weirdly, because when the English came and took my father's land, they said these words to me as they killed and stole and did the things that have happened to your people. He's trying to relate the preacher boy. Like, what you saying, right? There's some differences. And it's those differences that are prickly and I think take, again, the movie to another thing.

access that Preacher Boy has to the timeline of humanity through song, through his connection, through art. That's what Remick doesn't have. And he wants Preacher Boy, because he desperately wants to connect to his timeline. He wants to see his people again, and he can't see his people again. And he wants Preacher Boy to do that for him. So he's going to steal Preacher Boy's gift for his own purposes.

Yeah. You know, it was, it was so, it was such your unusual villain because you, again, this is something that Coogler has done in the past. Well, I'm going to say, but especially with like Michael B. Jordan is Killmonger. Like you have this relatable villain that you almost start to. They're having a great time out there in the fire. That's all I'm saying. Like I wanted to get out there and dance with them. That's all I'm saying.

That again, I'm saying like the alternate scene where you're almost like you're feeling the Irish jig when he's like river dancing out there. And I'm just like, this is another great scene because obviously the other thing was it was, was, it was a Remick who was very Jack O'Connell's character was very front and center. And it was like, again, Haley Steinfeld in the background, Michael B. Jordan, like they weren't the focus in this scene, which is generally what you feel.

Yeah. I'm curious about and what I'm going to need multiple watches to really work my feelings about this out is what's the autonomy of the people who get bit by Remick? Because we see Remick controlling his clan, his vamps, actions, motions. The first time that the three come to the juke joint and they play the Robin song and they're all in the same movement. And then in the dance, you know, he has them all doing river dance. In the Bible verse, he has all of them speaking what he's saying.

They feel what he's feeling. And then he's killed. And so I'm guessing once he's killed that autonomy is returned to the surviving vampires. And so the vampires that are in the mid-credit scene now can act on their own without him. so what do you they become? feel like they could have already, but there was almost like this high of mine because he was, because they all shared his memories and they shared each other's memories.

I feel like there was this natural, like almost like we're going to do similar actions. We're going to feel similar. To me, I see it as a commentary on religion and control. Yeah, because while Remick can relate to smoke and stack and we can relate to Remick, we know that there's something that's... We can't just join the fellowship of Remick because he's in a dictator position. I don't know. I'm still working it off.

You know, we actually we had a similar you were talking a moment ago about how preacher preacher boys doing his prayer at the end and remake is mocking him and saying and saying that it brings him comfort. I found a similar moment earlier in the film with it was a Delta or Delta Slim, a preacher boy and stack were all in the car together.

And he's talking about how he eventually got away from his plantation and how a lot of folks were a lot of people he worked with had been killed and the song that they sang while they were out there and how he went from, you know, near tears. it put back in that moment out there in the Mississippi sun to singing and happy. But I don't know necessarily fully happy. I mean, he was doing the blues, right? Right. And the blues is channeling your pain and communicating your pain. Yeah. Right.

I think that there's a certain amount of satisfaction, maybe not happiness, but there's a satisfaction there in a similar way, Aaron. And we'll get into similar vibes in a moment here with Warfare. When we're all running, we're doing our sort of, you know, what do they call them? like the songs we sing while we're running to keep in beat. What's it called, Cadence. Thank you. Gosh. Yeah. Running. Yeah. I like a running.

The last thing I want to point out before we move on real quick is just the fact that the Transformation that Remick makes throughout the while we see him throughout the fight throughout the film Just the vampires themselves when they do that like, know, and they go into like vampire mode the eyes Everything is so well done with that as well. It's very subtle. It's very subtle.

The eyes were just Insanely good like there's that scene where cornbreads out in the woods taking a piss and the only thing you see is Like the eyes in the background. It's like And then it's like the scene cuts. they also look like the fireflies, like you initially think it's fireflies, but then the eyes stay there a little bit longer. So you know that they're a person.

Yeah. So like the and just yeah, the remix transformation to like, you know, he didn't go like full like, you know, don't you think like demon mode, but he's like this, you know, he's got the teeth and the fingers and he's just, I mean, it was incredible. The whole movie again, the whole movie incredible. All right, we have talked about this movie for an hour now. Stay all the way to the finals, finger. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which we can talk about, I guess, you know, at the end.

Goal. Just tell your listeners to the end, to the very bitter end of the... the very end. Everybody post and end credit scene. Yeah. Despite Miles Morales is going to show up in the MCU in the next movie. That's what you find out. Real quick, a couple quick hitters before we move on to warfare. Number one, we have the Choctaw vampire hunters. Why didn't we get more of that? I more of that. More though, Brad, I more. guess what? If this movie does well, we'll have a whole Sinners universe.

They'll have a they'll have a Choctaw vampire hunter max show. I do feel like this is one of those movies where whatever the box office ultimately ends up doing, if we get sequels or not, we gotta get comics. We gotta get Sinner's comics. Yeah. Yep. Which label is DC going to put that on? it to be Elseworld? Is it going be Black Label? Come on, Dark Horse from the 90s. There you go. There you go. All right. One last question before we move on.

Where does this rank in the pantheon of Ryan Coogler films for you guys? Number one. one? Yeah, number one. Yeah, it's it's number one. It's not like far and away. Number one. I think Creed is like like a half mile number two and then Black Panther is not far behind it. But yeah, this is one. I like, for me, I'm like, is this my favorite film of the last five years? Maybe. Is it my favorite film of the last decade? Maybe. That's how much I love this damn movie.

Yeah. Let me go through a couple here. Top Gun Maverick for centers. okay. Top Gun Maverick is a badass action film. It's got nothing under the surface. I love it. Great movie. It's all about filmmaking and attitude and vibes. Sinners is more, man. Okay. right. All right. All right. thoughts for me.

I will say an important view at a time where movie theaters are under fire, where there is a lot of othering happening in the world, where, you know, black filmmakers, black folks in Hollywood are not getting opportunities. And in the same way that they were maybe only a couple of years ago, only a couple of months ago, an insane an insane accomplishment by Ryan Coogler and co.

Michael B. Jordan will not get nominated for something or will not get nominated for this movie, but he should, in my opinion. If nothing else, they should give him best supporting actor just to be funny. you know, best cinematography should absolutely. mean, again, we're only in April. like if Archipel does not get some kind of recognition as, know, one of the greatest or one of the best cinematographers of the year, at the very least, you know, Ruthie Carter should get. the costume design.

I'm just saying this movie deserves its flowers everybody. That's all I'm saying. It's an absolutely incredible watch. Brad, how about you? Yeah, I mean, I echo everything you said. You know, it's not the type of movie that gets recognition. But, you know, I've seen two movies in my life where as I was sitting in the theater, I went, shit, I'm watching a masterpiece. this is a film that is going to be talked about for a long time by, you know, the people who are excited about film.

Yeah. Aaron, bring us home. Same. I went into this movie so unaware of what I was like really going to get and that excited me. And then when I was done watching it, I just remember thinking like, this is exactly what I want to feel after a movie. This is exactly how I want to feel when something amazing has just been played in front of me. And I'm just like, this is incredible. This is what... must be what people who actually go and watch like the Super Bowl in person feel like.

Well, when they get a good one. That's how Swifties feel when they get to see her live. There you go. There you go. There you go. This is how a K-pop fans are when they get to see BTS. This is how K-pop fans feel when they just watch their favorite artists on TikTok like every day. I will say one more shameless brag. The scene where we transition to the the fight scene at the sort of near the third act at the beginning of third act where the vampire. God damn it.

Why did she call them in like that is I guess I could. It's like, yeah. Yeah. Her death though, her death was one of the best. When she burned up like that, holy shit. That was incredible. What a metaphor for sacrificing yourself so that your family may live. then the ratio chain? Thank you, Brad. That's where I was going. It went from that 276 one ultra wide to the 143 one of the, know, forced for a story size IMAX screen. was immaculate. It's immaculate. It's not even the right word.

It's a one in a lifetime type of cinematic. It's Ryan Coogler going Christopher Nolan hold my beer Yeah. Again, going back to the ownership thing, Christopher Nolan's got to be kicking himself for not thinking of, and I don't know if he thought of it or not, but like the fact that Chris Nolan hasn't gotten this. think this deal, like I don't know if this deal would have happened a year ago. We're in a really weird place in Hollywood land. Things are, you said it's on fire. It's crumbling.

And if you want to maintain it, you really should go see movies like Sinners. But you should also go see movies like Black Bag, which made like $5 million. It's one of the best films. Mickey 17 as well. Mickey 17. Why aren't folks fucking going out and supporting that also because I'm gonna shut up. Aaron wants to move on to warfare. He's excited to talk about you. I know. I'm just, I'm just trying to look at the time and we're like, said, 90 minutes. We're at one fucking 10.

And what are we going to do? Warfare in 20 minutes? I don't fucking think so. Okay, Aaron out of five David Weiner's, when are gonna give centers? Five out of five. Aaron's first five on the living bar. five. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I love it. And he actually told me that as he got out of the theater and I was so happy. couldn't hold back that like normally we'd never share that shit. I get it.

But as soon as I walked out, I was like, Hey, man, I got to tell you right now, five out of five. High five, Aaron, right through the monitor. Five for me as well. I don't give out a lot of fives. Is that true? I don't know. I definitely gave a five to this one, though. It feels like it's been a long time since I've given a five. Brad, five years, Chris? Five years. years? And I've never given a five. Yeah, I've given two fives out everybody.

I've given out one for Top Gun Maverick because Brad, I will, I you know, I know you gave us flowers. I saw that five. needs to, somebody needs to and I don't have the energy. I it to him. I gave Top Gun. It was an immaculate, equally as incredible viewing experience. And then I gave X-Men 9705 as well because. That's great. I won't fight you. I'm going to give just to be the other guy. I'm going to give it a very, very, strong 4.5. If we did decimals, I would give this a 4.75. I'm fascinated.

I never give 4.5s. I give 3.5s, I give 2.5s, I give 1.5s. For some reason, I just never could do 4.5 because I never have that like, ooh, the one thing I would change or the two things. What's holding you back from the full five? You know, I think what it really comes down to, like, again, we've been bragging about this movie for the last hour and 12 minutes. It was really, really close.

I was just talking to my partner a couple hours ago about how I really wanted to give it a five and I was gonna wait until we started discussing this movie to really submit that 4.5 or five. And what it really comes down to is there are certain moments in the movie where... It feels and I think it comes out in the end credit scene. It comes out at the beginning when they sort of give us a little bit of exposition.

It sounds like there was like a there's a little bit of fat maybe somewhere that could have been trimmed off to include those in a more integral way. But the the beginning dump I don't like ever in any movie. He doesn't Black Panther 2 and I don't like it. And at the end, it's just another 20. It's another 15 minutes of the movie. Yeah, the end of what? the mid-credit scene makes the movie for me. That gets me to five. And I understand how you feel.

My first watch, I kind of felt the same way about the opening animation. But the way, one, I like that it's animated. Two, the way that they then incorporate that animation into the narration. in the rest of the movie, I think works so well and you needed that in the beginning to sell that dance hall sequence. Yeah, and as we've said, I won't fight you on any of it. It's a very, very strong 4.5. Like it's so close to a five. It's not. And who knows?

Once I watch it again, possibly it could turn into a five. But seeing it in 70 millimeter, I felt like if that wasn't an automatic five there, I don't know when it will be. But I'm willing to open myself up and see it, you know, try again at some point. And again, it's incredible.

All right, Aaron, you have been excited. talk about this. why don't we kick it off with you? Initial thoughts on the brand new film from Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza, Warfare. All right. Should we put a disclaimer out real quick as well? Go ahead. For spoilers or for trigger war? Warning is for you specifically. Okay. Yeah. So, I'll, I'll just put this out for the listeners.

I already kind of briefed, Chris and, Brad about if, if I get a little bit spicy, a little bit too spicy with this, conversation about this movie, because, I will tell you this, like trigger warning for those, for service members, for veterans, for anybody, who may have gone through family members who may have gone through something similar or known of something similar that happened to a loved one.

This is very much a movie that will trigger that, that will bring up some memories that will make, you know, I'll tell you, like, we'll get into it, but I, were moments where, like, I was like feeling like I needed to reach for like a weapon.

There were moments where I literally could smell like the, the, the gunpowder and like, I, know, the carbon and, know, it was, it was definitely a I'll tell you the weirdest thing about this movie for me was anyways just to get to the point though the warning was like if I need to I will step away from this interview Or at least take a moment Yeah, yeah, so sorry, know what I meant like again like my brain's kind of messed up because like this this movie is absolutely They're probably one of the

one of the closest things to reality like I have ever seen when it comes to a movie about like in Iraq deployment. I did not realize because I actually was slightly like a couple seconds late to the movie actually starting. And I did not find this out actually until right before we started recording that this was actually this play. This happened very close to one of the installations that I was or one of the outputs that I was stationed at.

It's actually the close to the place where I ran I ran missions there as a truck driver. And then as well as that's the place that I got medevac to when I did have an incident where I was required to be metabacked. So it definitely is very real. It hits very close to home. And this is not a for entertainment. This is a movie for, it's like a documentary. It's like going to watch a documentary in my opinion. Very Restrepo-esque, right?

You're sort of living in, and Restrepo is a really interesting, interesting, not the right word. It's a very illuminating documentary from the early 2010s about what it's like to be sort of on a remote base in Iraq. And yeah, again, you know, a lot of folks know that listen to the Oblivion Bar, and I are both, we met while we were in the army together. We are both veterans.

You know, as Aaron sort of illuminated there, he has definitely seen a lot more theater than I have, because I've seen none and he's seen some. So. I was able to go into this movie and sort of view it from the outside because that's me. I'm not here to pretend that I've some war torn PTSD riddled a hard ass. That's not who I am. I got very lucky in my time in the service.

So, and we talked about it before the recording and I just want to sort of illuminate that for the listener here that when I left the theater, I saw it first. I saw it at Adobe theater and you could feel every shotgun blast and every IED go off and The opening scene, is sort of a entry of levity into the movie, all hit you right in the chest as you were watching it. But I texted Aaron right after I saw it and went, brother, you need to probably approach this with caution.

Because Raymond Doza kind of says it perfectly. And I'll tie my initial thoughts with this, is that this movie is not here to ask why. It is here to show what, like show what happened. Like there's no questions being asked with the movie. is just. a day in the life of these folks who went through it. So Brad, how about you? How about me what? How was your experience? experience was intense, probably for different reasons. I have no military experience whatsoever.

I have lived a very soft life and I am grateful to those that have done this service so that I can live such a soft life. I saw this film about a month. maybe a month and a half before the theatrical release of it. I saw it at the Motion Picture Association's office in Washington, DC, which is two blocks from the White House and across the street from the former Black Lives Matter Plaza. In fact, they were dismantling Black Lives Matter Plaza as I was walking to the theater.

And when you go to the MPA to watch a movie, I've seen a few movies there now. you are going to watch a movie with the red tie crowd. And I saw the film and before the, actually before I saw the film, it's like a cocktail hour. They are giving you all the drinks you want. They're giving you all the food you want. Here's some shrimp. Here's some avocado toast. Here's an endless fountain of old fashions. And then Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza spoke before the film.

They were there and then they did a Q &A afterward. And the theater at the MPA is a great theater. I mean, it's amazing in its picture quality and its sound. You know, so I knew I was going to watch, and I knew what the movie was going to be. So I knew I was going to watch something intense. I still didn't really actually know how intense it was going to be and how upsetting it was going to be for this very soft person watching it.

I went with my buddy Brian and, you know, once the engagement happens and the, you know, the film is real time after the title card and it really does a great job of showing the boredom of being out there and then it does an amazing job of showing you what a sliver of what it might be like to be engaged in combat in this way. It is detached from explaining how those boys got into this place. Like doesn't really want to talk about the Iraq war.

But at the same time, I think there might be like two intentions going on between the directors. I think Ray Mendoza has one intention and Alex Garland has another intention. And I think there is still a lot of political heat in this movie. I mean, every choice is a political choice. But I think some of Alex Garland's left leanings are revealed in the first few shots of this movie and the last shots of this movie. And so, yeah, like, I've never really been in anything like it.

You know, I've heard people say like it's like the first 15 minutes of Saving Private Ryan. No. No, it's not. It's way more claustrophobic. It's way more upsetting. Yeah. I I mean, it was an incredible experience. Again, I said that Sinners was one of the most memorable movie going experiences I've had. Buzzed on a few old fashions watching this next to senators and congressmen and stuff. Recognizable people. Also an extremely memorable experience.

And I guarantee right after that movie, they went and voted on, you know, cutting more veteran benefits. That that sounds about right. You know, what's what I think is like what we should really sort of we don't spend too much time because we've already we're already like so far into this episode. But this is sort of a great reflection on like post 9-11 cinema and how like right after 9-11 happened. And Aaron, you probably will remember this better than than me.

And actually you too, because you're a little bit older than me as well. But like. There was this time right after September 11th where everything was that scene from Spider-Man where it's like, you mess with one of us, you mess with all of us. You know, like that, it was a lot of that, right? American sniper type of cinema talking about, you know, zero dark 30, hey, hoorah, hoorah, go America.

I think, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, I think going forward, we have become very aware of not only our role in that war, but also our eventual role in- invading Afghanistan a couple years later. Some people have. Yes. Yes. Some of us have some of us haven't. And, know, it's going to turn out I think we're going get a lot more of this is what I guess I'm trying to say is that like warfare is where we're heading for this kind of movie. I mean, I don't know. I don't know.

And I also know that there has been a lot of complicated reactions to warfare from both sides of the aisle. And I think the conversation it creates is maybe even more important than the movie itself. But, you know, I would just want people to engage with it. I also feel weird that this is a movie that's just gonna play at Tyson's Corner Mall and people are gonna be eating popcorn too. And I've seen people online go like, oh man, this is like the best action film I've ever seen.

And it's like, ah, okay. I don't know if that's the lesson. That's one thing. It's like this is, when my wife and I, went and saw it in a theater I've never even heard of. It's something called an I-Pic. And it's like they have couches and really amazing food. They give you a blankets. We have one of those. They give you blankets. Yeah. well, I'll give you a little bit of my, my experience as far as the movie.

So like, I told you like kind of how it was feeling, you know, it's been, I've actually, like I told Chris and we talked about a little bit on the recent, patron episode of the grid. I've been kind of struggling a little bit recently with my mental health because I've actually been opening up a lot more about my experiences, and the incidents that I went through while, while deployed to Iraq. And so, probably didn't time a lot of this stuff out correctly.

But it's been, it was really like, you know, opening that stuff up was kind of like really opening up some old wounds. And so going into this movie, like my wife was excellent. She was, she kept asking me like, you okay? Are you sure? Are you sure that you want to see this? Like even up to like, you know, being in the theater and sitting down like, are you sure, you know, we can leave. And I'm like, no, I'm good.

so that that whole experience leading up to it was, know, I was very, very aware of myself, my emotions, my thoughts, you know, seeing it in that theater, think made it, because it was like a little pod. So I didn't feel like I was sitting in a crowd of people, but there were like a couple of like older people and some, you know, people's and some younger people to my left.

And I don't think like, really, I don't think anybody like who just goes and picks this movie, like as the movie they want to go see. really is is aware of what they're like. I don't know if this is being marketed or if like it's being, you know, kind of pitched the correct way. You know, I don't think people are walking into this movie thinking like this is something that really happened to to to a few guys and like, you know, or happened to a lot of people in different ways.

And this is something that I need to be aware of and respectful of. Well, now they're going into it like, like it's a fucking action movie. Like it's, you know, so. This presents our first real issue with the post 9-11 war cinema, right? Like part of the reason we keep getting these American sniper type of movies is because they're, these type of movies are generally unmarketable. So they have to make these sort of popcorn movies. Brad, what do you got there? I don't know.

I think depicting war cinematically, depicting war in any entertainment, you're giving it to an audience and once you make the thing and once you release the thing, you have let go of the thing and you can try to steer it and shape it to reflect how you feel about a concept. But an audience is gonna do with it what an audience is gonna do with it. True, true. And you have to then ask, well, how much responsibility does the filmmaker have to that reaction?

How much responsibility does the studio have to that reaction? How much responsibility does the audience have to that reaction? It's kind of up in the air for me. And so for me, all I can talk about is what I thought about. as I watched this film and what this film did to me. And in talking about that, maybe give somebody else some thought to process the movie in their own way.

You hear, like growing up, like I grew up, in the 80s and 90s, it was all about anti-war films filtered through the Vietnam War. You had like two types of war movies. You had like the World War II, the Good War. And then you had the Vietnam movie, The Bad War. And both of those movies, like you watch Apocalypse Now, it's very different from Here to Eternity. It's very different from, Platoon's different than Second Private Ryan, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then sometimes you would start to get some anti-war messaging, filtered into World War II experiences, and you'd watch something like Come and See, or you'd read a book like All Quiet on the Western Front. But for me, there's no such thing as an anti-war film because once you put it out in the world, people are gonna, it's gonna be glamorized in just the telling. And so I think people are gonna have that experience with warfare and it's on all their other elements in life to. deal with it.

Can I make sense? Yeah, it absolutely does. But I can I slightly challenge you a little bit. Please. Warfare. Is there even an opportunity to sort of glorify this and make it into like a gore porn, nationalistic Fox News runs air ads for it type of movie? there is because I've seen it online. I've seen people go, like, oh, this is a badass action film. I've seen, you know, like, to me, you know, every kind of human is out there. They're all going to react to these things.

And I think this movie doesn't, what this movie excels at is immersion. And I think that's what the Alex Garland side of things was really attracted to with this cinematically. He really wanted to put you in the feet. and in the hearts and minds of these soldiers. you know, extremely successful in that way. And movies are empathy machines, to quote Roger Ebert.

And that's their whole purpose, is to put you in the eyes of somebody else and you explore the world through that lens for how many hours. But, you know, You watch that crowd and some people are going to engage with it in a serious way and some people are going to be detached. I think that's the other trick with a movie like this is because it's so intense. Some people have to disassociate for their own reasons. And when they disassociate, they're going to form their own opinion on the thing.

Will this stop people from... All right, I'm going to say something that I found so... stricken offensive at the start of this movie at the Motion Picture Association. The kind woman who introduced Alex Garland and Ray Mendoza said something along the lines like, we hope when you watch this movie, you come out of it and realize that war should be the last option. And they say this too, like the red ties in this room. And I'm looking at these red ties, you know, like that.

They're not gonna come out of way with this and go like, you know what? We gotta find a way to end the war between Russia and Ukraine. You know, because I've seen this movie. You people are gonna come out of this thing and they're gonna probably continue to do the shit that they're gonna do. Exactly. I'm not gonna change it. Some people will be pushed a little bit, maybe influenced a little bit. Other people are going to rally around it.

You know, I think for Ray Mendoza, he said during the Q &A that he wanted this movie to be a bridge between husbands and wives. know, husbands come back from conflict and they have trouble communicating their experience. Give this movie to a wife, give this movie to a son, give this movie to a father. This kind of reflects. this experience, and maybe you have some sliver of understanding. I like that thought. It is, it did, it did that as I can, I can actually say it did that.

Cause like that's, I was really interested to hear my wife's opinion of it. And she, know, cause you know, she, we may not have been married when I was deployed, but we were still like in each other's lives. And so, you know, when I asked her about it, she's like, yeah, if I, she's like, if I had seen this and you were like deployed, like this would have destroyed me.

you know, she's like, basically, and she asked some things and I like, actually brought up some things that I told her about from my experiences. Like when I, I could, I'm going to, I'm really like, let you know, I can, I can relate to a lot of the stuff that goes on in this, in this movie. And it's crazy. Cause like, even the scene like with the, the grenade, like, so I was, you know, if you don't mind me kind of deviating a little bit, so quick before you move on because it deals with this.

Can I just ask you and lead into what you're about to say? How are you feeling up? Because there's about 20 minutes of nothing. It's just them. You're getting used to the characters, meeting the crew, getting a feel for the room, but nothing, no action is happening. How are you in those 20 minutes leading up to that grenade? Okay, so kind of the best way that I kind of explain this is. This is going to sound weird. I told, you know, I said the same thing to my wife.

I said, there's actually a moment, there were a few moments there that I actually felt comfort. Like I actually felt comfortable. I felt like a little bit of nostalgia because there is a, it is a separate world when you are deployed. It is a separate world when you're just with your squad, with your team and you are like in that room with them or you're getting like you're in the vehicle or you're on the bird or. year. You're in the shit like, or you're just waiting for something to happen.

Like there is a commonality that spreads across like everybody, you know, and that's honestly, and they say forged in fire, like these relationships that you get, that's, they do such a perfect job. Again, I'll tell you, this movie from start to finish is so relatable for anybody that has deployed or worked in the military, whatever. It's like you feel like the scene with the water bottle when he spits in the water bottle and the other guy drinks it. That's shit that they do that we did.

We have done because like it is there is a a certain level of brotherhood and camaraderie and even, you know, homoeroticism that creeps into your life when you are in that, that, that shit, when you're stuck with these guys to your left and right. And like, you know, it's, they, they nailed it, the feeling of it completely. Like again, from the music video, when you're just What an opening. What did I- I honestly it's so I've done that I've been there. I've been there with my guys.

We're sitting in a a in a tent Getting mortared from outside the wire and we're all sitting there in our gear and we're watching something stupid on somebody's laptop just because it's the only thing that'll play DVDs Yeah, you know like it's it is exactly like that and then the other thing was as it ramps up into You start seeing the the personnel like the people on the street and you start seeing these things When you see the guy walking by, so you got the sniper who's in his, in his, in his

position and he's watching and he's looking at and he's, and he's documenting and he's recalling things up. been there. I've been on perimeter guard where I've had to call stuff up suspicious activity.

and then he's like, what, like when you see somebody walking by who was obviously like glancing, you know, at your, at your position, like I'm feeling that, one thing that he didn't call out was when he scanned by that window and there's a flash in the window and that was obviously either or, or, or somebody else's scope.

That stuff is going to live with me for the rest of my life and I will be able to pinpoint anything like that any moment like you start seeing suspicious activity like that I will feel that like to my soul and then the other thing that was really like I'll tell you this and not to go again too much into the the actual like plot of it before we're ready to I have to say that there's it's the the sign this the the moment where the Over the loud

like you sort of start hearing the loudspeakers and they're like calling out and they say that they're calling for jihad They're calling out for the attack. That is exactly how they do it. I have been there. They will use the speakers of the mosque to call out for ways of attack, for ways of suicide bombers, for like, for people to get prepared.

And like, you'll see when you drive through a town and five minutes ago, you saw crowds of people and now you're in a corner where there is nobody around. you're... We call it the pucker factor. Your asshole puckers up and you get ready for whatever, like anything that can happen. Like this movie hits every single step of that in such a realistic manner. It is insane. Yeah. I just want to go back really quickly. Call on me at the beginning of this movie was a treat.

Again, I saw this and this we can get into how we saw this. You guys will you already mentioned, but I saw this in Adobe theater and. You know, talk about two movies that have created core memories in the theater. I don't know. You guys can tell me if maybe I'm romanticizing this too much, but seeing that and hearing it in Adobe theater, it really was that.

sort of like release of tension before like I went in this movie and I sort of knew what it was about but I purposely didn't watch any trailers because I wanted to be completely fresh for this movie but I knew that I was going to be tense because I know a 24 I know Alex Garland and I've been in the military so I know this shit's going to rock me in some way and they say this is based on the memories of this entire squad goes right into

fucking Eric, Eric Perez and call on me and it's just bumping and you see the crew and Aaron, as you said, we've all been there in the military. We've all been in the situations where we're all just Neanderthal lizard brain idiots and we're all just having, we're just surviving in some way or another. That really like let the tension out. Okay. Let's go in fresh and then over the next. really? really? Okay. Ramp my tension up. Because I knew what I was going into, right?

I think what that scene really does a great job of selling is the age of the people who are there. reminding us that the people we send off to fight our wars for us are children. And like the youth of that scene, I found so sad. And when that dance sequence was starting, I was already going into a place that I knew was going to emotionally devastate me.

you know, like when they are first, you know, cutting to when they start to go out and like the one guy does like kind of like the humping action, you know, like they're goofing off. Like, and you know, they're in a neighborhood, they're in these, they date to these people's homes. They're, and then they're going to have this conflict. where people are going to die and people are going to lose vital pieces of themselves. This home is, this neighborhood is gonna be completely destroyed.

And for what's the purpose? Like again, two blocks from the White House. know, across the street from Black Lives Matter Plaza. What is the point of warfare? And that's really what I was thinking about. And so like when I saw that scene, like to me that scene was just about like youth, kids. Violence, devastation. What's the point? Growing up in the Midwest, could tell you and Aaron, you joined young too. You grew up in the Midwest and everyone in your circle tells you this is a great thing.

Go serve your country. Go protect freedom in quotes. And Alex Garland said in the Q &A afterwards, after Raymond Dozer was talking about this being a possible bridge for husbands and wives, fathers and children, that he would also think this could be a good movie for young people to watch. when do you make the decision to join up? Is it when you're 18 or is it when you're 15? Is it when you're 14? And maybe this is the movie he would want them to see.

I would still say that, well, know, a 14 year old has only so much maturity and understanding of life and death. you know, would this have an effect on, you know, when you're 14 years old? I don't know. I don't I don't think so honestly Aaron. What are your thoughts there? I do not know. mean, I think you're so ignorant and naive at that age that you're nothing really like you're, you're not even, you don't even have your own opinion to be dead set into it. You know, plus this right here.

And I'm holding up my cell phone for everybody that can't see me. This is all of violence and it's all right here. I mean, you scroll through three videos on TikTok and you're seeing war. You're really seeing it on your phone. You know what I mean? I appreciate your, your, your position on that, Brad. Like I really do like your, kind of your take on that, on that entry, the introduction into the movie.

Cause I wouldn't have, you know, I can, I can absolutely see that and I can actually absolutely, absolutely understand that. Pretty much I like just like the ending of the movie, like you, like you mentioned the beginning and the end were just like these very much like a commentary commentate of moments. But I didn't really think about that entry like that because yeah, like going into, I'm just like, yeah, this is like the calm before the storm.

This is the moment where you have to find the moments between missions to feel like a human, to feel like a kid, to feel like a friend or to feel like a group of just guys and then our group of soldiers are, cause these are steals I think. Yeah, they're sealed. Yeah. No, I'm sorry. It's Delta Force, I think. I thought Raymond Dozen was a Navy SEAL. no, sorry, Charles Melton and his crew are Delta. This is Navy SEALs. You're right. Sorry.

And so, you know, again, and that's, you know, I've worked with seals, I've worked with, with, you know, special, special forces and they're, they're shitheads just like we are majority of the time, just when it's, when it's, when it's time to get down to business, it's, it's business time. So, I know, I appreciate, I appreciate you sharing that Brad, cause that was, that's, you know, I like that. I don't like it, but I, I relate to it. Can I add a little commentary to that as well?

Because again, I think part of the reason why I felt reprieved there and I hate, I hate that my brain is hardwired this way. But while watching that and knowing that these folks are having a great time and knowing that some of them, if not most of them are going to eventually not make it through the end of the movie. We signed up, didn't we? You know, and Aaron, you, you can, I can, know you can attest to this.

We are the only country in the world that has a military full of people who, folks who sign up on the dotted line. No one's making us do this, you know? So, you know, it's not, mean, yeah, you're right. It's not necessarily, it's not, it's definitely encouraged, right? I think there's a lot of factors into why people sign up. And like, I think everybody has a different factor. But I just think, you know, there's lots of systems and places that direct us as Americans.

strongly incentivized, right? Like I only went to the military because I needed free college and I got it, right? Aaron, if I remember correctly, you can totally add to this. I think yours was just direction, right? You just needed something to do after high school, right? was living in my car. Yeah. So, mean, and it's a lot of folks that are like that, you know, it's again, again, Brad, as you said, it's a lot of young. I'm not looking to like take your free will from you.

You know, like you all have free will. know, but I think, you know, some people have more options than other people. Okay, let's get down to the minutia here because you know, we've been talking about this for almost 30 minutes now and haven't really got to like the details of it all. Aaron, do want to talk about sort of the synopsis, I guess? Yeah. Give me one sec. Yeah. OK. Sorry. So this is a movie based on Mendoza's experience, Ray Mendoza's experience during the Iraq war as a US Navy SEAL.

This film is a reenactment of an encounter he and his platoon experienced on November 19th, 2006 in the wake of the Battle of Ramadi. To maintain historical accuracy, the film's material is exclusively taken from the testimonies of the platoon members. I find that really interesting. Do you guys? Yeah, I think it's interesting that they're using the word accurate, right? Correct. Because it is memory and how accurate is memory, not that accurate.

But what memory is, is authentic, you know, to a person's experience. so I think this does feel like an extremely authentic telling of these incidents cobbled together by all these people's memories. But I love how Mendoza and Garland really sell you on, like it is memory. And again, you know, talking about this Q &A, they really wanted you to know, like, this is not fiction, this is not a documentary, it's based on memory and memory is memory. It's not true.

They say like, you'll always forget what someone says, but you'll never forget how it made you feel. And I feel like that's this movie and sort of a nutshell. Like the names don't really mean much.

It's about what again, Aaron, as you said earlier, the smell of the gunpowder, the, you know what, the, the feeling that I got was at one point when one of them is carrying the other, I could smell like, remember that plastic, the way that like, like the, the bulletproof vest smelled like plastic and your, your Kevlar. I kept smelling that during all that. then I was on a 50 cal. Aaron, think you were on a 50 cal at one point. It has a very particular, like the grease has a smell.

know, it's just all the humvee. Like it all has this very particular smell that came rushing back to me while watching this movie. Yeah, it's, uh, there's so much to this movie that, that is little details and that's, you know, again, the, the caked on dirt after the explosion of like blood, it's, you know, it's very accurate. The, That's for Miller, the sniper.

Yeah. So, and then, you know, just again, seeing, the movements, seeing the struggle, seeing the moments, the explosions, the, even the, the, the, the tink, tink, tink, the ricocheting of the, the small arms fire.

Um, you know, like I said, I know we, we haven't gotten really into the deep of it, but like, you know, this movie, this movie plays out just so everybody is, if you haven't seen it yet, you know, I'm sure a lot of people haven't seen it yet, but you need to go see it or you should go see it just to be aware of, you know, what we're talking about, but This movie follows them as they're preparing to break down this outpost that they've taken

over this house for because it is basically an overlooked point in the middle of the city. And that's what they do is these, you know, the, the, the, the seals would go from, from location to location, basically combing through and making sure that they were available to either overlook, overwatch and find, you know, the, the most wanted, you know, so to speak. And so these guys are part of a I don't really know what their elements are called in the seals, but you have this one crew.

Then you have another one that is not too far away and they all have the same overlook, which is there that it's a drone or it could be like, I mean, it might be a mandra. I'm pretty sure it's an unmanned drone. Yeah. The display of force that was an F 14, I believe. And so they have, they have overlook. They have, you know, air, air support, but it's spread out amongst these different groups of them. and, what you hear over the radio and you know, lot of people may not understand this.

If you don't have the experience, this is a complex coordinated attack that is being carried out by the Taliban or Al Qaeda, whoever, you know, is in that area at that time against these elements that have been scouted out who are supposed to be there in, you know, the, Yeah, I think it was Iraqi insurgents, like insurgents is the... Yeah. Because I don't think it's Taliban. Yeah, so it be the Al Qaeda then. And they were, because this is pre-ISIS.

But yeah, so this is a complex coordinated attack that hits each of these elements individually at the same time. And it is incredibly well done with what the enemy at that time was able to do coordinated wise. It's because they didn't give a shit about their own people. It's because they didn't give a shit about there, like a lot of the talent, like you'll see, like they start clearing people out, but like they really go all in. Yeah, I mean, I don't have any room to talk about that.

You know, all I can talk about is from the movie's perspective. And it doesn't have any access to the opposing force. We have the family in the house and we don't really spend much time with them either. I don't want to get into a political discussion of why we were in Iraq at that time, post 9-11, and the value of being there. But my takeaway of watching it was, it just all seemed for nothing. Why do these people no longer exist? Why does this person no longer able to walk? was the value.

Yeah. The cost reward ratio is, was not there because, that was the other thing was the transparency in the mission. You know, you have a lot of, especially with, especially with Afghanistan and again, not to get into too deep of a place, especially Afghanistan is you have much like me, much like Chris, you did serve during that time. You made up that not a deploy, but you did serve and you did support the mission during that timeframe.

But there are a lot of people who are questioning What was the point of us going there and spending so much time and so much energy and losing so much life for it not to have changed or not feel like it's changed at all? Like what was the point? What was the price? What was the cost? What was the reward? Because Two words. Dick Cheney. That's what it was. mean, I know it's probably a more nuanced conversation we could be having there, but Dick Cheney wanted to. That's why we were there.

Well, real quick, just before, yes, I definitely want to let me, I don't know if we need to get into that, but just real quick, all I to say is there's, there is a difference between like the junior enlisted and like the people who are on the ground, you know, and them just simply asking that question versus the people who may have had that answer at that time or all the answers at the time. I think I'm more asking from the perspective because there are, there are people who have come and gone.

out of the military who served during that time, who deployed multiple times, who still do not have a clear answer of that, who do not have a clear understanding of it. And I'll say like, you know, I will never talk down about my time in the military. Some of the things that I did that I was, you know, that like our mission, like I didn't fully understand that was me as a child. That was me as a, as a young man.

You know, I cannot, I cannot go back and justify or like really like, speak to the things that I just know that I was a guy who joined the army, who was sent overseas to do a job. did my job and luckily enough I came home. But, know, there are a lot of angry, especially with Afghanistan, with, again, it just, doesn't, we went and we left and it doesn't feel like, the, the, the, the, Conflicts over there have been going on for longer than we've been a country.

They've been going on for longer than many religions have been around and we're not going to go over there and change it with democracy, especially with forced democracy. we can't do democracy either. But, And this is, again, this movie's in Iraq, not Afghanistan.

And yeah, I think where I have trouble with warfare is in its detachment from the larger story, in wanting to tell such an immersive story, in wanting to put the audience in the experience of these people, in these... combatants, these American combatants, the movie gives up the larger themes. so, and therefore any audience member can really put their politics and their point of view into this movie. And I think that's where it gets a little dangerous.

I think for me, the final shots of the decimated street and the Iraqi soldiers coming out and also the Iraqi family coming out, having gone through this experience, says a lot politically. Why do we end with them and not with the boys, the American boys? I think there's something there, but there might not be enough there. I would argue with that because, I do see what you're saying, but I would argue with because it's such a isolated moment in time.

But at the same time, you're still like, if you were to take your mind out of who you were, your experiences, opinions, and put you just in this moment, this isolated, collected moment, and that's all you had. You had nothing but the mission, nothing but your boys around you. Nothing but your survival. Nothing but your weapon. Like that's it. You are completely isolated in this moment and nothing else matters. And that's what you get.

You get these guys and this experience, but you also get the same experience, like you said, from the family members and the, the, the enemy that are the enemy combatants. Now I think that that's where kind of the power lays is because it's almost imitating the mindset of the soldiers and the service members that go into it without that full big picture and still have to focus on just survival. doesn't matter anything outside this moment, this place, this time. The definitely sells that.

That is what the movie is trying to do. I just know that most of the people who are watching this movie are the people voting, right? Yeah, hopefully voting. And I want people watching this also to be thinking beyond that moment too. And I wish we got more time with the Iraqi family. I don't necessarily need more time with the Iraqi soldiers, but at the same time, we never get that story either, ever. Those movies don't get made here. We're not interested in watching those films.

We're not interested in paying the budgets of those movies. Imagine that. Imagine if that came out. Right. I would love to watch it. I would watch it, imagine the backlash that. Yeah, yeah. that's what I'm saying. We don't have that because of that, you know. But I keep, think the moment with the family though is, is, is super powerful. Like even as a service member, like it, to me, just that finite moment because it does leave you.

So what, what Brad is, is, is, is referring to is there's a scene, the final scene, once the actual team is, is, is successfully medevac, because the first attempt is, is very unsuccessful. once they are medevac and they've, they've left this home, just devastated this whole city block is just. demolished because of these tanks.

The family walks out and it's the mother and the father and they're like, or it's like, you know, they're comforting each other and you know, like they're saying, are they gone? Are they gone? They're gone. You're safe. It's okay. You're safe. They're gone.

And you would think that they are talking about the enemy, like some, some person that came in and invaded their home and invaded their house and like held them hostage because you like when you, when you're like an American who's taught the way we are, You look at these guys and you think, they're taking care of them. they're keeping them safe. they, actually jump on them when the bombs are about to explode. But no, like this family, they are captive.

They are, they are, they are, they are maybe safe, but they're not. Yeah, they're not. They're alive, but they're not, they, don't, they don't see this, this Iraqi family. They don't see us as the saviors that we think we are. Correct. They're only in that situation because we were there. were f****g there. Yeah. Yeah. Like that whole situation was antagonized by us being in that, in that center. I will say really quickly, and then we can move on.

I just keep going back to Raymond Nosa saying that this movie is not interested in discussing the why, but the what. I find that just so powerful. And I think Brad, that may slightly answer a little bit of your question. But that's what I'm saying is maybe a little dangerous. For a younger person or the mall crowd, do they come away continuing to otherize? Sure, Yeah. Okay, Aaron, talk about the cast. And I will say that like, these are our next generation of Hollywood male stars, right?

Like who Aaron is about to list off, this is 10 years from now, our biggest movie stars. Five years from now, five years from now, actually. Okay. So you got Joseph Quinn as Sam, the L the LPO or the, the platoon officer. the DeFarro wound a tie as Raymond Dodas, Raven, excuse me, Raymond Doza, a communicator. He's the J tech. and that's the, I want to say it's like the, the, coordinates the, air to ground assault. Yeah. Will Poulter is Eric. He's the OIC, the officer in charge.

Cosmo Jarvis as Elliott Miller, a corpsman, lead sniper. Kit Conner is Tommy, a gunner. Michael Gandolfini as USN, the United States Navy Lieutenant McDonald. Charles Melton is Jake, assistant officer in charge. Ben Bennett as John, another JTAC. And then Taylor John Smith as Frank, another sniper. You know, of the cast again, that is excellent. I think this movie changes in some significant way when Charles Melton shows up on screen, like he's in the beginning of the movie.

But when he's there and his team get there to help, obviously there's an air. We've all met guys like this. We're all like, I just rub some dirt on it. You'll be all right when this when you've got Joseph Quinn with two broken kneecaps. But like Charles Melton, he has this presence in the movie that I think is like. He like I firmly believe this and I think I already thought of it before when he was what's the Netflix movie?

May December from last year that Charles Belton is a he's a bona fide star. This guy is like I think he's Timothy Charlemagne in three years kind of kind of Joseph Quinn of course you know as we said he's he's sort of on a run right now of course with Fantastic Four coming out in a couple of months he was in the Quiet Place movies he was obviously in Stranger Things. So like he's big, then, know, Will Poulter, his second 824 movie in one month, he was also in Death in a Unicorn.

them days apart or weeks apart I guess. It was like, I love that. Will Poulter is, he is our next chameleon. He's our next Swiss army knife in Hollywood. He can play so many things. Adam Warlock. He's Adam Warlock. Yeah. Just an incredible cast of you guys, of this cast. again, I think my pick is probably Charles Melton or possibly Cosmo Jarvis. Those two are like real standouts for me. Who in this film, Brad, was someone you really, really like seeing? I mean, I loved all of them.

I thought they were all extremely good. I don't think there was necessarily a standout for me because they felt as real as a movie can get. And I felt so connected to them. And yeah, like... Yeah, I can't hand pick one person over another. I said, Will Poulter, seeing him in this and then seeing him in Death of a Unicorn. I think that guy's a genius actor. can do it all. But they're all extremely good. There's nobody dropping the ball at this.

Right. And I think what you're feeling is the goal of the movie, right? I think that's what they wanted. They wanted these. I mean, they have a couple of big names, but I think it's even been said by possibly Garland. He says that like every actor in this movie, whom they all, they all got matching tattoos together, by the way. I don't know if we, if you guys have heard of this, but they all felt this camaraderie.

This film was shot over only five weeks, but they were together every single day, you know, creating this movie. They are one unit, very similar again, Aaron, as you mentioned earlier, when you're in military, there is this boundless camaraderie that you can literally get nowhere else. And we're not trying to sound like gatekeepers here, but when you're in that shit, man, there's only one way to do that and you have to be in it. Aaron, how about you?

Is there someone that sort of stands out to you? I think, I mean, Joseph Quinn and Will Poulter, like, mean, but I, I, I want to like, you know, I want to echo what you both said. Like this, this is a group of guys that just, it just felt like there was a connection. There's this connective tissue between all of them that was invisible. but yeah, like I think Will Poulter, when he gets injured and you like, he's just like, checks out.

can't breathe and he kind of checks out like, was just, yeah, he, I'm, I'm incredibly impressed with Will Poulter's like story arc as, as a person, as an actor, like he's done some incredible, incredible things in his, in his career already. one just, I was gonna say from what I understand, Will Poulter really wanted to work with Alex Garland because he's a pacifist. He's like no war ever, bad deal. Don't want to touch it.

But he wanted to work with Alex Garland so badly that he decided to take the role. And again, I think the film is better for it. So I mean, I'll just leave it that like, think they were all incredible. This whole, I was, I was locked in from moment one and on each of these characters. Cause I felt like, again, I could relate and I've, I've worked with guys, even the guy that came in and was like stepping on people's legs. what saying. We've all we've all been with that guy before.

Yeah, you know And my wife was like, what was his deal? And I said, he's just an asshole. jacked up. just, he thinks that everybody can just rub dirt on it you're like, he's the who, who raw guy, right? there's, I think it's worth mentioning too. you know, Glenn Fremantle was the sound designer on the film. He's, he's Oscar winner. did gravity. He's done a lot of films with Alex Garland here recently. He Garland's first film was, which was the beach, ex Machina great a 24 film, annihilation.

Of course. Great. Another a 24 film with the men and then more recently, a weirdly similar sort of movie in a lot of ways, Civil War from last year. So, yeah. One thing I wanted to, I want to kind of point out was like, not only is the use of sound in this movie so incredibly well done, but the use of silence in moments was just, it's one of those things where you just, it's a, excuse me, it's a thunderous like silence.

just feels like it's going to like, because that's the problem is when things get quiet, that's when things get scary. Like, you know, and again, like kind of like when we were talking about Sinners just a few minutes ago. It's, you you'd rather face the devil, you know, than the devil you don't. And when it gets quiet before an attack and you know, something's getting ready, like that's, that's terrifying. That's fucking terrifying. Yeah. No score. No score.

Yeah. besides call on me and I think there was, right. Nobody wrote anything for this. Yeah, the last song of the movie was significant. I'm trying to find out. Dancing in Blood by Lowe was the last song of the movie, which, yeah, I think sets the tone and sort of cements this movie for what it is, which is again, a moment in history that is unexplainable and horrendous and no one wins and happy times everybody. Let's end this thing. We've been over two hours here.

Final thoughts, Brad, on warfare. You know, great, complicated, so glad I watched it, a movie I won't be forgetting anytime soon. And yeah. I'll end I'll let Aaron you end it here. You know, what an incredible episode for us, you know, us three folks to get together and talk about these two movies again.

Sorry, Brad, you said earlier that and when I said that we're on fire right now, I meant like this moment in movie history, we're on fire because you've got movies like warfare and and know, centers coming out. It feels like movies are back. Movies are back. Minecraft movie. It's Yes, really. Steven Soderbergh, again, one of the better movies of the year. I think it's number four for me. But anyway, point being is that this experience is, as you said, Brad, it cannot be replicated.

It will not be forgotten as someone again, who has not experienced what these folks have and what Aaron has. You know, it feels so real. You know, it's sort of lost words like I don't really have anything else to say besides an incredible viewing experience, visceral, I think can be said about this movie and centers, right? Like I felt something, even though it wasn't necessarily a good feeling. I think when I go to the movies, all I want is to feel something.

And again, you mentioned it, Brad, Roger Ebert, you know, famously said these film is a empathy machine. And I don't think you can realize what people that are in the military understand what they go through unless you see something like this. So, Aaron. Yeah. mean, I, think that movies like these as, uncomfortable as they might be in, moments or in specific times in people's lives.

I think movies like these are absolutely necessary because you know, much like we're doing now we're three people with very different backgrounds, very different origin stories. And we're able to discuss it and talk about it and even come to terms with, you know, the fact that you may believe it's about something else or we like it because of this reason or whatever political alignment, whatever. I felt bad in centers, all these things. She was bad in sinners. Let me finish. Can I finish?

No. so I just think, mean, this is a movie that gets people talking. It gets people thinking about, you know, the consequences of war, the, the implications of war and who, who at the end of the day is left, you know, to settle the bill.

And as somebody who has lost people overseas as somebody who's been through moments like this and who have, who have I'll be honest, like there were moments where I was in the, like, I was in the theater, like crying, like emotional and, and, you know, it was difficult to hear that, like the screaming, like in the background, because like that happens.

Like if you get, you know, when people get injured, when you, like you have, again, I'd say that I felt moments of calmness and clarity while I was in this movie, even though there was all this stuff going on and normally it would overwhelm me, but that's something that I've actually, I've lived through and I've dealt with and it's almost comfortable. And that's, that's, that itself can be a little bit scary to my, to me. And it just shows me like stuff that I need to work through.

But from where I've, where I came from to where I am now, being able to sit in the theater and watch this and, you know, talk about it is to me, I'm, I can see the progress that I'm making. So movies like this are necessary, but they're also important conversations like Brad, the fact that you brought up that Mendoza wants us to be a bridge between spouses and children and parents. that's absolutely true.

That's as somebody who again has spoken to many veterans, Chris, you spoke to many veterans as somebody who's been through it. I don't realize the things that I don't talk about because I'm not comfortable with or because I don't think that people want to hear. Nobody wants to hear about some of these things. But sometimes you need to share with people around you. so that they can understand what you've been through. And this doesn't apply to just people who have been traumatized by war.

This is about anything. Sharing your own time, but it is important to share with your family so they can understand and relate and be there with you. So this movie was incredible for me. It was an experience and it was something that brought me a little bit, I would say almost a little bit of comfort and understanding of who I was and what I've gone through, which I'm really trying not to make that not sound egotistical. I think that's like, it's important to feel seen, you know?

It's important to have stories that you can point to and go like, I went through something like this. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's true. It's like, really haven't had that opportunity. And this movie really is one of the first ones that I've actually been able to say like, yeah, this is this I, I relate to this film. Like I was there. And figuratively. Isn't that the value though? Right?

Like as you said, sometimes it's hard to talk about, but movies like this, what's better than showing, you know, it may not be exactly what you went through, but it's pretty close, you know? And again, as you said earlier, it was tough, but you actually went through it back there behind us. So you got through this too. And I'm, I'm, very happy and proud of you, my friend, that you were able to do it. I was happy that you were able to get in there and see it.

Cause I was nervous when I got out of there for you to see it. but I'm glad that you at least had, I won't say a pleasurable time, but you at least saw the value in it. So. Yeah, I'm extremely thankful for my support circle that I have and everybody that was like, you know, especially like Carly, like she was, she was incredible. Like before, during, and after the movie.

you know, she, the fact that we went to a place and had dinner and had like a good day beforehand, you know, was, was definitely something that like eased me into it, you know? So I'm incredibly lucky for the support that I had going into this and, and it made it, it made it, easier process. Well, you I wasn't going to say this, but as a black vampire, I had a lot of trouble getting through centers and I think this is probably a good time to discuss that.

We could go another hour if you guys want. We could do another 45 minutes or so if that's OK. All night long, I got nothing on schedule. I'm kidding. Okay, Aaron since you ended us here out of five David A whiners real quick bread, you know who David A whiner is He's director of in search of darkness in search of tomorrow those four Yeah, he's great. He's been on the show a couple times.

He's a he's a dear friend of the oblivion bar different that I wish want to know what we should reach out to him and see if he can record a clip for us about his opinions of sinners. Yeah, he is like a horror aficionado. So I think he would, um, which we didn't really talk about. We can talk about another time, but is centers a horror film? Yes. Is warfare a horror film? Yes. Yes. Yes. That was an easy yes for me. I wasn't sure about centers, but I think you're right. Yeah. I think it is.

You know, boy, let's talk. I got 45 more minutes to talk about genre. Let's go. Aaron out of five David wires, what are you gonna give warfare? I'm going to give it a 4.5. Okay. Same. 4.5. Same question to you both. The point five. What's the point five? For me, again, Brad, as you said earlier, you're a little perturbed about the, just the show and not the tell. And you know, not every film has to tell, right?

But I think a lot of films should have at least a direction, a slight message, maybe a couple messages. I think, yeah. And don't know if this movie is interested in that. Yeah, sorry. I asked a question. I'll you answer. This is not my podcast. No, it's okay. I like it. It's just, it's one of those things where I enjoy myself. It was a visceral experience. Everything was about right. But there was just, and it's so very similar to centers.

It's just a small part of me that just wanted a little bit more what I was getting. And I believe in a levy. I want movies to cut it off before it's too much, but there was enough space there where I'm like, just give me, give me 10, 15 minutes more. Tell me what you're trying to say here, Mendoza slash Garland. slash Kugler, but it's pretty great. It's a strong four point five. OK. Eric. I'm actually glad that Chris said that first because I'm changing my answer to a five.

Two fives in one episode. We got two fives. Ken, I'm happy you changed your answer, but could you still like kind of work through the point five? Is it because it's not a fun time? No. so to be honest, I think I was a little bit, I was a little bit hesitant to give it a five only because I was so excited about how good Sinners was. And also I didn't know, I wasn't sure how I necessarily felt about this movie and it's, and it's like, it's just, it's simplicity in a place and time.

But I think that talking through it and kind of like, understanding like how this movie is set with like the initial like again the initial calm before the storm the video going through like like building everything up into the actual attack and then what it brought out me and then the actual like the final moments of them getting out of there the relief and then the family that almost silence at the end and the

use of sound like I think all of that together kind of like talking through it and then hearing Chris kind of like think, you know, because he said he wouldn't have minded a little bit more. And then I thought about the fact that in the past, there's been a few movies where they've had this moment where it's just an unnecessary moment of them kind of spoon feeding what it all meant to the audience.

And honestly, I think that one of the most powerful things about this movie is the fact that it doesn't spoon feed you what it all meant. Because to be honest, we as a country, we as soldiers and we are we as service members. And we as a lot of civilians are still struggling to figure out what it all meant at the end of the day. And so I think that this really speaks volumes. And for that, put, you know, I was like, why am I not giving this a five?

Because it's gonna live, it's gonna live with me for a long time, just like everything else that I carry with me. This movie is gonna be one that I will come back to for sure. Brad, I'm going to go ahead and guess that you're above a 4.5. Am I right? No, I'm a four. Okay. I think it's a fantastic movie. Why I don't have a five is a reflection of my concern and confusion of how this film is interpreted by others.

And I think the power of this movie is in its distance and its immersion, the two of those things. And I think if you were to... overly explain and pull out a little bit, you would lose something that is trying to communicate that sliver of understanding of what it must be like for people who went through this experience from this side of things. But again, when I see people responding to it like a Call of Duty game, I go, Maybe it shouldn't have been as subtle. I don't know.

So right now I give it that four because of that concern slash confusion. But there's no denying it's artistry and it's emotional core. You know, I think there's something to be said about the area of growth with the sort of again, subtlety that you're saying sort of the the sitting on a fence, you know, like as you said earlier, I totally agree. Garland is totally a leftist and wants to put that in his work and super subtle ways.

And I think Mendoza is sort of I don't know what his political linemen are, but I would imagine that he wanted this movie again to be about the people. So like. Yeah, that's exactly right. Mendoza says it's not a political movie, which I don't think is a thing. But from his perspective, it's not a political film. It's honoring the memory and honoring his friend who lost so much in this moment and wanting to be that bridge. And I think that is so important.

And I wouldn't take anything away from that. But I also know Garland is a leftist. I was just watching him on GQ talking about him being super leftist. And I think there are elements in there that he sprinkles in that are there, but you gotta be watching this movie. And if you're a 15 year old kid, second screening it, you're gonna miss those things too. like, that's, I don't know. Like, it could be a five star next week. I know it was great and that's why I gotta give it four stars.

You know, I still just, this is the last thing I'll say before we can end the show. I am just, I'm so bewildered by anyone who would find glory in this movie at all. This is so not, it's even. But Chris, you're living in America right now, Yeah, I know. I've been saying that for the last 12 years. Yeah. I just don't get it. This is like, there's no like, there's no Chris Kyle hurt locker moment in this movie.

No one pop, you you don't have Will Poulter with two M4s in his hands popping off in the air. Like, what's his name? And Thor Ragnarok? You're talking about. but that's Carl Irving's character. Yeah. You know, like I've seen and know that you could watch this movie and go like, fuck you Iraqis at the end of this, you know? Like go America and, you know. If that's how you feel go go touch grass as my and again, I this is not my leftist speaking This is my realist speaking.

This is someone who like sees what is on screen and again, I'm I'm literally speaking to no one right now because I would imagine most people listening and especially you to understand what this movie was at least attempting to say or or dancing around even but gosh I think what's compelling about it is the difficulty of the conversation around it, too. Sure. will say as sort of a last thing.

If you found this movie, if you found America in a good light after watching this movie, my gosh, turn this podcast off, delete Spotify actually. and just like go touch grass. Okay. Email me. dbccpodcast.gmail.com. Let's talk. That's what I want to know.

I think the, I can just point out one last thing, and it was kind of one of the hardest, like interesting things about this movie was there's a moment where a radio operator had to call and impersonate an, an, a brigade command in order to approve additional tanks to be deployed to rescue these, this, group of, of service members and Can you imagine having to be that guy on the radio and like, he's asking me, like, I mean, first off, you know, my wife is asking me like, like what would happen?

Would he get in trouble? I don't be like, to be honest, I don't give a fuck. No, if that was me. In that moment, I will impersonate the queen of Egypt. You know, I'll impersonate anybody because I'm, you can throw me in jail for 50 years. I'm going to get these guys out of here. Right. You know, and that should have been, there should never be a moment in anybody's memory or history where you had to impersonate somebody in a higher rank than you simply to get a rescue.

And I think this is perfectly illustrated in those shots where you get the the aerial craft infrared sort of scene where you see everyone has little green dots. I mean, Brad, those folks that you watch this movie with, that's how they see us. We're little dots on a screen on a black and white screen from one hundred and fifty feet up in the air. You know what mean? I think that's a very intentional creative decision by Garland and Mendoza. know. OK, that's enough warfare. That's enough centers.

Brad, thanks so much for hanging out with us for two and a half hours. Man, thank you for having me. And on a positive note. Like you were saying, you watch these two movies and you go like, damn, these are movies, man. It's good to go to the theater and watch some movies that are gonna do what only movies can do. And I feel like I was in a rut after last year. I know a lot of people had a great time at the theater. I didn't have these like wow moments in 2024.

I had movies that I enjoy, but not enough. And I feel rejuvenated. by movies like Warfare and Sinners. And I'm like, bring on the next one. Let's go Thunderbolts. You know, you saying that made me think of 2024, the way I felt after watching Dune Part 2 and how excited I felt about cinema and going to the movies. I felt that with both of these movies. I got that one time last year and I got that twice in one week this- I I got that. Yeah, definitely. After both movies. And I think it's, yeah.

Cause you expected so much more from the rest of of 2024. and didn't really necessarily get that. So it's, it's amazing to have it happen. And again, I'm excited cause I've never given out a, you know, a five little, but one goddamn. That's a tenor right there. All right, Brad, tell the folks one last time. How can they find you? What's coming up on comic book couples counseling here in the near future? You can find me comicbookcouplescounseling.com. We're on all the podcast platforms.

The Grant Morrison episode, Lifetime Highlight. Whether you like Superman or not, please listen to that episode. I think the conversation around Superman in 2025 is really interesting. I think also that it would be a great time to revisit the 1938 comic of Action Comics number one, which I just did. this past week, thanks to Superman Day. Look at that, there you go. Like the Superman of 1938 is not necessarily what you think of when you think of Superman.

And Grant Morrison and I just had like a really interesting conversation about Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster's creation. So yeah, go check that out. This coming week or whenever this episode is dropped. Our latest episode is going to be with Tyler Crook and Christopher Cantwell, friends of the Oblivion Bar. Their new comic is Out Alcatraz from Oni Press, who are killing it. the second issue, again, depending on when you listen to this, should just be out.

It's one of the best comics on the stands right now. Nobody makes comics like Tyler Crook. Go check it out. I think I'll do you one better. Out of Alcatraz is the best book of 2025 so far. 2020! It's been a good year. Really good year. It would be in conversation with that, my top five. How it all shakes out. feel weird saying a comic's the best comic of the year when we've only got two issues. So far, so far. Yeah. Aaron, were you saying?

I was asking Brad, did you read Patrick Horvath's free for all? Sure did. I will read anything that man makes. Correct. That is the right answer right there. Support. I want to I'm going to show Brad my my while you talk I'm going to show Brad my my little prized possession centers, support, uh, war, war, warfare, Jesus, and also support anything that Patrick Corbett does. Very cool. Yep. Uh, Aaron showing off his beneath the trees where nobody sees card that signed by Patrick. Um, okay.

So as, as Brad said, all of their common book couples, counseling stuff will be in the show notes. Make sure you guys go give them a follow up. You're not already. I would, again, as I said at the beginning of this episode, two and a half hours ago, if for some reason you're not subscribed to Bradley's podcast, you know, That's madness. Crazy, crazy talk there. But that'll do it for the Oblivion Bar podcast this week. Episode 190 is in the book.

And Aaron, we are officially on the road to 200 as of this episode. 200 around. That's about two months away. But still, it's coming up. feel like that's a lie because of how many bonus episodes we have. According to the, like, we're like legacy number 259, but normal Oblivion Bar episodes were at 190. Leash and I were doing that legacy numbering business at one point and then we're just like, forget it. Just let we're going back to the olden days. This is how many episodes.

So we started our podcast like 100 episodes apart from each other because we're about to hit episode 300. Yep. You guys have been around for a little bit longer than us, but you guys have been a good friend to us. Both you and Lisa have been great friends to the oblivion bar since our inception. Yeah. gotcha. Now we have to have Lisa on alone just to even it up. did mention that. Yeah. We will talk about, will chronicle lies and rank the best monkey songs in existence.

my God. How about musical like Broadway musicals? Love that. best romance comics of the 1960s. is a musical coming out soon. Isn't there, there's like a musical centers was kind of a musical. Yeah, Lisa might debate you on that, but... What's that? Lisa loves Wicked! Yep. Wicked's great. There is a is a musical. Yeah, I can't remember what it is now. I just saw I just saw a boop on Broadway and that was probably my favorite Broadway show I've ever seen. It was amazing.

We're getting errands in New York City, living the good life. Literally lives in culture. City Monday. yeah. doing. We'll talk. We'll talk. We'll talk. Yeah. I forget we're recording for a podcast sometime. Well, with that being said, Aaron, why don't you take us out of here? All right. Subscribe to our podcast, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Audible, IR Radio, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. That's where we are.

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He's at KX. He's going to leave that in. He's at KXD graphics on the Instagram. Thank you, Dream Kid for all of our musical themes. once you, once you fuck up, you just can't get back on there. Thank you, DJ Sky Vacu for our grid theme. And last but not least, do not forget to tip your bartenders 20 % or more, or we will send the Gullixons after you. Damn right. Brad in first and then Lisa to finish you. right. I know everybody, know tipping culture is getting a little wild.

You you go to the gas station and you got to, give you a 20 % tip option for, for cashing out, but you know, servers, know, Ubers, things like that, please 20 % should be the lowest that you tip everybody. They deserve it. It makes their day and it's easy for you. So thank you, Brad, again, for joining us here on the oblivion bar. Thank you everyone listening right now. We appreciate it.

Next week on the show, we are talking to Kurt Pierce, talking about Lost Fantasy, his brand new book over at Image Comics, but until then we'll see you later.