Hey, this is Tom King. This is Mitch Garretts. And we're the creative team behind Sheriff of Babylon, Mr. Miracle, and Strange Adventures. And you are listening to the Oblivion Bar Podcast. Welcome to the Oblivion Bar podcast with your host Chris Hacker and Aaron Norris. Hello everyone, welcome to episode 148 of the Oblivion Bar podcast, the official podcast of the Fancy Shop in St. Charles, Missouri. I'm your sad new God who can't even escape death, Chris Hacker.
And joining me this week is half man, half Pegasus, who has a giant crush on Supergirl, my BFF and co -host, Aaron Knowles. Am I a centaur? No, no, no, not a centaur, Pegasus. That's the flying unicorn horse, right? Yeah, I don't think he's necessarily a unicorn. A Pegasus just has wings, like a horse with wings. Oh. Okay, but if I'm half man half Pegasus, yeah, I could be I could be a centaur.
Yeah with wings I guess I yeah, okay I guess I meant half man because comet and Supergirl woman of tomorrow is like a man who just transforms into a Pegasus No, I get where you're going. Yeah, but now you got my mind like Thinking yeah, and I'm thinking like what if I was like, what if I what what if a centaur could fly? Yeah, does he do like a Superman thing? Also, like would you rather be like would you rather your head be the Pegasus part?
or like, and then like have a human body or would you rather have your normal head, but with just like a horse body? What kind of Dick do I have? Well, I mean, I guess that just depends on what your bottom half looks like. I mean, the real answer is the same as I do now. Uh, you're welcome. Shabam. Everybody. Welcome to the oblivion bar podcast this week on the show. What an intro, uh, Tom, if you listen to this right now, I'm sorry. We're so sorry.
Uh, this week on the show, we were having Tom King. on the show for his third time, Aaron. This is his third time on the Oblivion Bar. Yes. Yes. Uh, and he is a little, he's a little upset. Yeah. He truly an American fashion, unlike our, you know, our good friend, Christian Ward, who is, you know, a good friend of ours. He's been on the show. Doesn't really care how many times he's been on the show. Cause he just wants to be back. Tom King and true American fashion wants to be number one.
And he has pissed that Christian Ward might continue to hold the crown. for being the most appearing guest. Yeah. Well, currently they are tied both at three a piece. Yeah. But, you know, Christian's going to be on the show here in a couple of weeks with James Tynan to talk about spectrograph over at Distillery. So Christian will retake that lead here in just a couple of weeks.
But for today's episode, we are talking about Helen of Winhorn, Tom and Bilkis Evley, who of course was the creative team over on Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow. They are now over at Dark Horse talking about a brand new series, Helen of Winhorn, which Aaron and I, we've both had the pleasure of reading early. It is incredible. And I don't say that lightly. We are obviously both big fans of Tom King, but Helen of Winhorn by both him and Bilkis is like top tier.
It is truly, I would say, and I don't mean this hyperbolically. And again, it's only March, Aaron. So it's still early in 2024. It is probably my favorite single issue of the year. And the cool thing about it is as a, again, I don't know why I feel the need to bring this up. Can we retire this? You're a new comic book fan because you've been reading long enough to not stop using as a crutch. OK, I won't use it. OK, so normally I don't really read. Here's what I would say normally.
Here's what I would say. I don't normally read like fantasy stuff. Sure. But Helen of Winhorn is already I'm already like I'm in it, man. I'm in it like it is so well set up that the last page of the issue is just. bad shit crazy. So I'm excited to see where this goes. No spoilers. No, I'm excited to see where it goes. I can't wait. I cannot wait. That's right. Uh, but also in this conversation we talk about again, Supergirl woman of tomorrow.
We talked about his story over at boom studios, animal pound with Peter gross. We talk, we talk about wonder woman. And when we talk about wonder woman, will you just kind of like, I would just kind of tease what I did during this without fully spoiling anything. You made it awkward. Did I make it weird? You made it. No, it wasn't weird.
As I said, you know, I think, you know, in one of our recent grid episodes, Tom King's one of those guys that you like, you don't even have to talk comics with him. He's just a cool guy that honestly, despite his amazing performance in the comic industry, just wants to talk to you and like just be a cool like guy. Yeah. And he is he's a cool dude. And I just want to like sit down and like have a beer with him and like chat because he just he has good.
kind of, what's the word, like stances on stuff? Yeah. He's got a great perspective on things. Perspective. See? Thank you. Yeah. I think he, I think he's just a great person to sit down and have a conversation with. And if, whether it's about comics or not, I think he's just a good dude. Yeah. And I think that's a great tease for our conversation. Uh, what Aaron didn't say, and I'll just admit it right now, get a little political in our conversation. So just fair warning. You tried to bait him.
No, no, no. I tried to bait him. No, I did not. I didn't, I wasn't like, what are they, what do they call that? Like, um, Gotcha. Gotcha. Journalism. No, no, I wasn't trying to do that. Tom. Not at all. I wouldn't say it was gotcha journalism. I wouldn't say like that. You just like you were asking him questions that I think that he wanted to talk about. And again, those would be conversations that we could ask him like over a beer or something like that.
But probably after a couple of shots, he was just like, he's like, ah, you know what? Let's you. Anyways, let's talk about anyway. So Batman, Batman is cool and super. Yeah, it's like all the things. Yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know, I guess the reason why I brought it up the way I did was because I was trying to interpret what he was saying, both in Animal Pound, because Animal Pound is all about classism. It's about the changing of power and all these things.
And then Wonder Woman is about, again, I say it in the conversation, but xenophobia, political rhetoric, and what that can do to someone's legacy. The voice of public opinion has never been louder in today's world. And I feel like that's what the core of Wonder Woman is right now.
There's definitely a paradigm switch in comics right now to where we're going from like just purely entertaining and and being being kind of taken out of our own like current situation to the way he's writing like super or super. Yeah, Wonder Woman and how it's almost like a challenge to the system. Yeah. And well, to be fair, I will say if I could just challenge you for a moment, I think comics have always had this corner where they are reflective of today's world and they'll.
And we talk about that. Yeah, and these creatives are putting themselves into their work. So of course they're going to reflect certain views and their moral compass and all these things into the characters that they're creating. And again, I think that's always been around, but the beauty about comics is that as a kid, you can read Supergirl Woman Up Tomorrow and go, holy crap, the art is incredible and Ruthie, like who wouldn't want to be Ruthie?
And Supergirl is awesome and they're traveling to different planets. But as an adult, you can go, Oh my gosh, this is like a little girl who's not only growing up and kind of like learning about the real world in a very quick way with the death of her father. And then of course, traversing the universe on this like vengeful mission. But then like also like what it means to face vengeance when you have it right there in front of you.
And ultimately what's the decision that you make when you're there. But anyway, again, we get into all that when we talk to Tom during this conversation, we'll stop prepping it. Aaron, will you please tell the listeners how they can support us here on the show? Yeah, I'll make it quick so we can get them to this interview because it's a, it's a good one. So you can check us out on patreon .com forward slash oblivion bar pod.
You get access to the grid, which is our weekly exclusive Patreon podcast. You get access to episode transcripts, early access to these episodes, the main episodes. You also get a special shout out at the end of each oblivion bar episode, which you'll hear coming up. It's honestly the best way to support the show and everything that you guys donate through your Patreon subscriptions goes right back into the show so that we can make it better.
So. We just want to say thank you to those who are already Patreon members. And if you're considering it, you know, there are free trials. We have different tiers so that you can join at different levels. You get obviously different, uh, you know, what's the word? Perks. You get different perks for joining at different levels, but you know, we would just love to have your support. And again, we just feed it right back into the show through Spotify, just below the oblivion bar panel is a button.
to link your Patreon exclusive content. So it all just feeds right there into Spotify. It's an amazing new update. I love it. Chris loves it. Just to just check it out on Spotify and see how you can link those. Once again, patreon .com forward slash oblivion bar pod. Check us out. Alrighty. Let's get into this conversation with Tom King. Hey Aaron, how do you like to read your comic books digitally? Chris, it's funny that you should say that. I just started buying and reading my comics.
on Omnibus. Ooh, interesting. I actually heard from a little birdie. It's actually backed by some of the top publishers in the medium. It also hosts an extensive back catalog from Image Comics, Boom Studios, Dark Horse, Ahoy Comics, Titan, Vault, and many more. And most importantly, Omnibus supports in -app purchases. That little birdie is called X now. But also, Omnibus has officially been made reading and buying comics digitally the easiest it's ever been. Wow, that's incredible.
And you know what I'm going to do, Aaron? I'm actually gonna go right now to my iPad iOS device and download Omnibus. And then also right after that, I'm gonna go follow them over on social media at the Omnibus app. Omnibus for fans by fans. And now this week's special guest.
Joining us this week on the show is the multiple Eisner award -winning comic book writer behind titles like Mr. Miracle, Strange Adventures, Danger Street, Animal Pound, Supergirl, Woman of Tomorrow, Love Everlasting, Human Target, Helen of Windhorn, and Wonder Woman. It is our pleasure to welcome Tom King back onto the Oblivion Bar podcast.
You're not going to mention my Teen Titans annual I wrote back in 2013 because I don't and Teen Titans annual back in 2013 at least six of the pages co -wrote 2013. It would be a fool's errand to try to list out your entire bibliography. Tom, what a joy to be here. Thank you so much. I appreciate everything you guys do. You guys talk about my comics and I love seeing it and my comics are sold by people talking about it and I just can't say how much I appreciate being here. You guys rock.
Well, we talked a little bit before the recording here. This is your third time on the show. So welcome back. Three timers club club. I just said club. I'm in the club. You are the club of the oblivion bar podcast. Yeah. I heard that Christian Ward got here before me, which just means I got to get to four before him because I don't want to start a meme or anything, but fuck you, Christian Ward.
I feel like it's it's it's highly likely that it'll happen with with the amount of success that you're all these books you got coming out right now. It's it's, it's insane the amount and you're just killing it. Every single one of them. Well, that's why I write. I write, I was like every book I'm writing, like this could get me closer to the four timers club on oblivion. That's I'm just like, I have that at the bottom of every pitch.
I'd be like, I swear to God, DC fucking take this brother power, the geek pitch. I could hit the four timers club. And they're like, what the fuck? I don't know either brother power or oblivion bar where you're fucking get out of here. Yeah. What's going on? How are you guys doing? How's life? Good. You know, Tom, obviously Aaron and I probably look somewhat familiar because we work with comic sketch art, which you were obviously represented by when you go to these conventions.
And I've had the opportunity to interview you maybe more times than any other creator I've ever talked to. I've interviewed you for whatnot shows. We did an eBay live show with Mitch at New York last year, if you remember that. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. We earned dozens of dollars. Dozens. At least 28 dollars, I think. I'm pretty sure. From my art, we could almost afford breakfast. Especially in New York. That like doesn't we can't even tap with that.
That's nowhere near lunch, but we were fucking coming right up on breakfast. I bring all that up because I want to just point out that it's always a pleasure. You know, we don't. Aaron and I made a point to say that we weren't going to butter you up too much in this conversation. We're all we're all old buds at this point, but I want to make sure that's known that every time we have a chance to talk to you, it's an absolute just wonderful time. So we're happy to have you back.
I just love watching you draw. Get in line, buddy. Get in line. Subscribe to my Twitch. I don't draw for free. Every time you come up on a on a whatnot stream, I'm just like, they're going to make him draw something. I point this out to Doc Schaener all the time of the two of us. I am the only one who has drawn pages for an Eisner winning book, which means I am an Eisner winning artist where it's Doc Shaner. What has he done? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. That's all I'm saying.
Christian Ward, not even sniffing my fucking Eisner winning art. So Tom, let's begin with your upcoming Dark Horse series with Supergirl partner, Bilgus Evilly, Helena Winhorn, which hits shelves on March 13th. And here's a quick synopsis for the fans of issue one. If you have a quick synopsis of his book, I'm going to be super happy because I have trouble doing a quick synopsis. I'm going to copy this shit out of this. A quick reader of a long paragraph.
It's like the Micro Machine guy could pitch this fucking book. So following the tragic death of her father, C .K. Cole, the esteemed writer of the popular pulp warrior, Othan, Helen Cole is shepherded back to her grandfather's enormous and illustrious estate, the Windhorn House by Miss Lilith Appleton. Although chaotic at first, Helen soon discovers a lifetime of secrets hiding within the rooms and hallways of the expansive manor.
For just outside its walls within the woods dwell the legendary adventures that once were locked away within her father's stories. Holy shit, that's great. Was that good? Yeah. Did you guys write that? I didn't write that. That's not me. Well, well done. Yeah. No. Do you do you can I hire you for parties or what the fuck? That was amazing. Absolutely. I dig it. I'm mostly like, oh, if you like Supergirl. Uh, this is more of Supergirl. Thank you. Yeah, that's what it's about for sure.
I would agree. I would agree. We just want to ask what compelled you and Belkis to team up once again for this story specifically. You should ask Belkis that because what compelled me to do it was me saying, I will do anything you want, please work with me again. Do you want, I will write what you want to illustrate. Satanic poetry, I'll throw away all religion and just fricking that's we'll go there. I don't, I don't, whatever it is you want to do, I will do.
And she said I wanted to create her own. And then she sent me a mood board, which was sort of like, I want to draw high fantasy, not high fantasy, but kind of like, you know, fantastic figures. And she also sent me a lot of like thirties kind of art, old movie shit, which I'm also really into. So, and I sort of combined that into an obsession I had at the time with Gothic literature plus. an obsession I have with Conan. I mixed those all together and came up with this.
But the deciding to do more was just when we were on Supergirl, even though Supergirl sold like shit, I feel bad because it's my best selling book now, which I'm sure it's all it's nothing to do with the movie, but it's all 100 percent just the quality. Right. But but I knew I knew at the time that it was something special. I knew she was doing something amazing. And and I will. would have done anything to work with her again.
So this all on Bill, because I did this, this is the next thing I did after Supergirl. I wrote this way back then and she's been drawing it for almost two and a half years now. So, yeah. Yeah, it seems like, actually, I think I may have heard in another interview that there was a time during the pandemic where you were just kind of like knocking out, I'm doing this story for four months and then I'm moving on to the next story. And then, you know, going on and going on and going on.
And I'm assuming, as you just said there, Helen of Windhorn was just part of that. continuous writing during the pandemic. Yeah, I mean, I wrote it before we've had a publisher even. I was just like, she's fortunate at the time, like that's because I was writing so much. I had, you know, I did I could take enough time off for it without income where I could just be like, I'm writing this all on spec. Someone will eventually publish this as long as Bill, because it's attached to it.
And so, yeah, I wrote it. Whatever. I took a few months off and dove into this and read a ton of Conan, a ton of Gothic novels. And I was just lived in sort of this Helen of Windhorn for whatever it was. And I delivered to her. At the beginning, I was like, here's six scripts. This is what it is. And she's like, I fucking hate the first issue. Like, shit.
And you have to adjust to what Bill Kiss wants, because again, like you just said, whatever she's on board for, it's it's automatically going to be compelling just to get. I mean, not to say that you're not also compelling, Tom, but like Bill Kiss is not compelling at all. Oh, whatever. Except for that one annual Teen Titans. I wrote the whole thing. That's right. Yeah. And you guys even fucking mention it. We can't give them all the heat. We got to just give them all the obvious ones.
Got to make sure they're still looking for some of your better work. But I think it's also important that we discuss kind of speaking on Hell of a Windhorn. And again, of course, Supergirl, Woman of Tomorrow as well, is that there's a lot of similarities between both Lilith's narration in this first issue of Hell of a Windhorn and Ruthie's throughout Supergirl, Woman of Tomorrow.
I feel like they both possess this kind of like... severely detailed, long -winded approach in telling their version of these stories. So as a storyteller, where does that fascination come from with this style of narration? Sometimes you want to swerve as an artist or as a writer or whatever you want to call me. Like Mitch and I, after we did Sheriff, we'd done this sort of very militarized, grounded thing. And then he... almost had been shoehorned into being that for the rest of his career.
And so he's like, let's do something different. So we did like a big cosmic thing with Mr. Miracle. In this thing, I did not want to swerve from Supergirl. I wanted to produce a book because again, I was so proud of that. We're like, sometimes you get to the end of something great and there was no more Supergirl. Supergirl is a complete story. It's a beginning, middle and end. We couldn't do sort of a Supergirl issue nine.
I wanted to do something where I was like, if you're a fan of this Supergirl, if you dug this, if you sat down and read this and you're like, God damn, I love this, I want to read some more of it.
I wanted to give them, so I very purposely made it similar both in sort of the approach of, you know, it's centered around a young woman, it's centered around all that stuff, and also using the same sort of narrative structure that I had used previously, which is, you know, there's a lot of different words for it, but I always think of it as some of the Sherlock Holmes narration where Sherlock Holmes is... actually narrated by Watson who kind of observes Sherlock Holmes, the main character.
Or you can think of the Great Gatsby version where Nick observes Great Gatsby from afar. But to sort of continue to use that and to use a voice that has a very distinct, because I hate narration that doesn't have a voice. And I was having so much fun with Ruthie doing these kind of like, you know, it was this old kind of Southern true grit, but also she was in space and she was 14 and kind of getting the words a little wrong using all these, you know, three penny words and shit.
And. But with her, I just heard Wuthering Heights, which is narrated by two different narrators, but one of the narrators is sort of one of the like sort of high class maids. And so I was like, I'm going to use some of this, this, this kind of stuffy British lady to narrate this thing. So it's similar. She's still using big words, but it's not that like old west thing that Ruthie had. Lilith is, you know, she's much more sing song.
And when I do her accent, I'm talking in this British accent when I read it out loud. So. It's different in the same. That's the idea. But I love writing Lilith's narration. There's an issue where her narration goes away. I was like, I miss it so much. I was like, it's sad that it's not in this issue. Because Helen takes over the narration for a second. There's kind of a very specific question. And I'm curious, re -reading Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow just a couple of days ago, actually.
And I should just say for the listeners, for whatever reason, if you have not read Woman of Tomorrow, This is a, and I don't say this lightly, this, Woman of Tomorrow is a bona fide masterpiece. And Tom, I would say that whether you were here or not. Oh, holy shit. I mean, it's First you say you're not gonna butter me up, then you're calling me a masterpiece, man. It's all because of Bill Kiss. It's all Bill Kiss. That makes sense. That tracks. Okay, now it's good.
No, but I'm, so I'm reading Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow and that last issue, when you see Ruthie talking to Krim there at the end, I feel like her way of speaking changes. Can you speak a little bit as to why that is? Was that intentional or is that just kind of showing what her venture has been since she started, you know, of course, since the beginning of issue one, leading up to that final moment where she has to decide whether she's going to take out Krem or not?
Yeah. I mean, I think at that point for Ruthie, some of her shields are dropping, you know, so like a lot of Ruthie is kind of puffed up, you know, there's a lot of bluff to her. She's never actually been in a fight. She's never actually killed someone. And at that point when she sees Krem, there's so much emotion there that some of her shields drop. At the same time that her shields are dropping, she's discovering that she's matured along sort of this adventure.
So she's kind of being like, I put up all these shields to hide myself and now they're dropping and I'm finding a new woman underneath. Someone who's sort of been through some shit, just like Supergirl's been through some shit. So it was a combination of those sort of two factors where Ruthie's voice starts to change a little bit in the end.
As her... I mean, I'm not ruining it, but her and Supergirl have sort of these opposite paths where they both have epiphanies at the end that are different from the beginning. And in the beginning, but they disagree and then they disagree at the end. So it's kind of like both of them are going to have changes as you go along. And that was Ruthie's change. Yeah. Chris explicitly explained to me before we started this conversation, he's like, do not butter up. He doesn't like it. He hates it.
I almost walked just then when he was talking about Supergirl. You know, I wouldn't blame him. If I had anywhere else to go. But I mean, all that's outside that door are my fucking children. So who wants to go? Oh, priorities. I read the first issue of Helena Windhorn and then I went back and because I enjoyed that so much, I went and read the entirety of Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow. And spot on with Chris about the kind of the parallels of Lilith and Ruthie's like, you know, kind of dialogue.
The way that I looked at Ruthie's dialogue was, To me, and yes, I love the way that you explained it, how she had that bluster, how she kind of had to build herself up to not be such a small child from a small dirt farming or rock farming child. I wanted to ask you about the choice of her dialogue because to be honest, I felt that her dialogue was very like almost above her class. Regal -like? Yeah, like so to me it felt like she, it almost felt like a commentary.
style choice to make her like her dialogue, not that of a, of a, like a simple farmer. I mean, I think that's, that's somewhat of, I don't know what you'd call it. Uh, I heard Jimmy, uh, Pommie, I talk about this early, but sort of like the Deadwood effect. Um, what David Milch did on Deadwood is he's like, everybody in the old West is suddenly Shakespearean level eloquent, but they just use the word fuck a lot. Yeah, exactly. And, and.
If you watch that show and love it, like I watched that show and love it, you're like, oh, this must be how they talked back in the old West. They just must have been. They this and serious to kind of start. And even though that's like completely not true, nobody talked like that. It's a stylized it's like Gilmore Girls or some shit like, but it's just wonderful as Gilmore Girls, just the dialogues flowing for you.
And but I think so when I'm doing old West talk, I start to switch into kind of, yeah, that David Milch, Deadwood, you know. where the sentences flow into each other and there's like highfalutin, but also it goes down into these kind of low, low weird words where he's just replacing random words with something. And it's also, and you know, obviously there's a big True Grid influence on it.
So there's some of the Coen brothers, both in the original True Grid and then the other Western they did recently, the Ballad of What's His Name, where they use that same Deadwood technique of like everyone in the old West happens to be incredibly articulate in how they talk. I don't know where that cliche comes from. It's brand new. It's obviously not in old Westerns, but I like it. So I'll take advantage of it. I just thought it was well done.
But let's talk about, let's get on the next question. You spent the majority of your career over at DC Comics. I'm still there, still there. I'm writing Penguin today, of all people. Well, we're seeing Helen of Windhorn being published at Dark Horse and also Animal Pound with Peter Gross over at Boom Studios. What enticed you about those other publishers for these particular stories? and love our last things an image. I mean, it's a different story with each company. Boom was very specific.
The editor, my editor, Eric, he was so nice to me in the beginning of my career when I just had nothing. He signed me up for a book before, like, before Grayson came out. I was working on a book with Boom. And then. I got the exclusive after Grayson came out and I was like, I'm so sorry, I have to leave you. They're making me leave. And for 10 years, they do checks. And he's like, Tom, how's it going? I read your stuff and this and that. And he's just a fucking good guy.
And sometimes when there's just good guys in your industry, you will do, you know, you feel like you owe them, especially when they're good to you and when you're young and have, have nobody. So I had this idea and I just called him up and I was like, I owe you for fucking 10 years ago, man. Do you want this one? And he took my goddamn, my agent was really mad at me because he should always go with image if you're a creator, right? You should, you can own all the rights.
But I just, I don't know. Sometimes you owe people and I owed him. So that's why when Boom and Ape, they've been wonderful. I love what they're doing. I love how they're publishing it. And I love that. And I love how Animal Pound's coming out. It looks beautiful. They got a great team on there. They helped me find Peter. They helped me find Tom, right? It's yeah. So. So it turned out to be exactly the right choice, but it was all about Eric who then quit boom and now works for Tynan.
So at least I could be his last book. I could close him out. How long is Animal Pound supposed to go? Because that first issue is insane. I'm just curious how long you can keep this gut punch going for consecutive issues. It's five issues, 28 pages each. It was supposed to be four. I extended it. So, yeah, it's five. I've written four of the five. I don't know how I'm going to wrap it up. I'll be honest with you guys. Sometimes like my outline, it's just like it makes sense.
And the outline I start writing and I was like, oh man, I got no idea. But yeah, I've got 28 more pages to write before I'm finished with it. It's good. It's good. It's one of those books that I mean, it's doing well in sales, but you know, it's meant to be a graphic novelist or lives forever. It's supposed to be kind of a, you know, for lack of a better word, a literary kind of thing, you know, and so it's like it's allegory book, which is weird, but.
But I love it and the cats and Peter Gross is drawing the show, the cats and the dogs. Yeah, he is. And I think issue two and three are some of the best things I ever wrote. I'm not sure about four. I just wrote it. But two and three are really solid. It's when we get to four or five, we're getting into like really like, you know, it gets depressing. So it gets depressing. Yeah, I think I want to know who voices these these animals in your head. Well, you know, they're.
You know, it's based on and not based on animal form, but I know what is inspired by on a farm or like a sequel to animal. You want to reimagining. And a lot of those characters are, you know, like like the first pig is supposed to be Lenin. The second pig is supposed to be Stalin. And there's other things to be Trotsky. So like the dogs in the end, the dogs and the cats have, you know, like real political kind of figures in my head that I connect them to.
So I kind of hear those figures in my head. They're all American accents. That's. It's not like Lilith, there's no, or Wonder Woman who talks in sort of a lemmo, kind of Greek pattern. And all the dogs have, all the names are symbolic, just like in the original Animal Farm where Snowball wasn't even the one with the pigs because he kind of starts shit and if gets out of control and Napoleon was the bad pig because he's like the conqueror.
So that's the same with this, except for Madame Fifi, who's named after my brother -in -law's cat. Was there a specific reason for each breed? So I actually, I went through and like, tried to pinpoint which character was which breed. So I thought like Madame Fifi was like a Maine Coon. You've got Lucky who's like a Rhodesian Ridgeback possibly. Obviously Titan is a Doberman Pinscher. You've got Raven who's maybe a Bombay Black Cat. Just some kind of like rotation Ridgeback man.
That is way too nice for lucky. Lucky is a fucking pit bull mix. He's a mutt. He's a goddamn just like my dog a pit bull mix. You go to you go to 90 percent of pounds in America and 90 percent of them are pit bull mix. It's just the way pounds in America are. And I adopted one of them and she's the best best of my four children. The reason the dogs are I mean, I'll put big dog small dog. just in the script. Peter's going to have to draw these dogs 30 times is an issue.
So if he wants to draw, you know, he sees that cat and he's like, oh, man, it'd be so much easier to draw a calico than a tabby. You go for it, Peter. It's like, yeah, I'm not going to hold him back. No, no. Peter's making most of the decisions. Piggy the dog, I think I said was, you know, some sort of little fat dog. But besides that, that whole dog kind of thing. But no, it was really depressing because because again, my.
I didn't name any of the dogs after my dog, Roxy, who sits next to me as I write every day. But the one dog he took that looked like my dog was the first one that dies in the 14 pages. So my kids are like, you killed our dog in the first. I was like, no, it wasn't specific. But yeah, probably between this and crypto in Supergirl, which just no spoilers, but obviously crypto doesn't die in that, thankfully. But like crypto does not die. I in.
I just said the first the first issue literally says in the parentheses, don't worry, crypto does not die. I'm not a monster. Well, speaking of Animal Pound, you pull zero punches like we just talked about during that first issue. It's truly Orwellian how almost every line of dialogue said by Madame Fifi or Lucky or even Raven could be studied in depth. What did you and Peter seek out to do differently in 2024 versus the that original 1945 classic?
Well, the original Animal Farm was written, you know, at the height of World War Two, when the Russians were very much sort of our allies. and the Communist Party in England was stronger than it has ever been.
And Orwell, who had been a fellow traveler, who had been a communist, who was very much flirted with communism, had been disillusioned during the Spanish -American, the Spanish Civil War, not the Spanish -American War, ain't that old, but the Spanish Civil War, where he got shot in the neck and sort of betrayed by Stalinist communists. And he was kind of sending a warning out or a shot across the bow being like, we're getting really close to these Russians.
And a lot of my friends love the Russians and communism. And this is, there is at the end of this communist road, there's fascism. He's like, I've seen it. I saw it on the ground when I was in a war. And he meant that as sort of a warning of like what could happen from the left. Orwell died very shortly after the book was published. It was never a success in his lifetime.
It became a big success when the CIA, my former employees used it in the this sort of propaganda machine sort of bought it for a bunch of schools throughout Europe and then eventually came to our schools. And since then it sort of turned into this bellwether to this day where my kids read it in school saying like, there is this communist threat from, and there is a way that communism sort of turns into fascism.
I don't doubt that Stalin was a fucking piece of shit, but right now I'm not sort of afraid of communists turning into fascists. That's not kind of the thing that's on my radar. Like, I mean, I'm sure. I mean, there's lots of communists, but they're not coming to my neighborhood at this point. I'm more afraid of the fascism that, you know, that sort of creeps up on you. I live on Capitol Hill. I was there January six, not part of it. I was just walking my dog by it. And I saw it all.
I saw it go down with my own eyes. And I'm just enjoying a quick, you know, just a nice walk with this dog and a bunch of incels are trying to break into the Capitol. What the hell's going on? I'll show you the pictures of Roggie Roxy at the revolution. Oh my god. She's just sitting there pissing on it on a grass in the background You fucking see people invading the capital. It is funny Pictures of Tom King just like I don't know what I'm doing. I What's what is this? I?
Would I would I not just see the protests and it was like because I'm on there's two sides of the capital there's like the one side where they like They were busted in and they like kind of like killed all the cops and not all the cops. They killed some people cops And then there was my side, which is the other side where the cops just kind of like move to the side and let them in. And so that's the side I was on.
And I was and there was like not that it was much smaller than I thought it would be. So I'm like, tweet. I was like, this shit's so small. Everyone's talking about. And then people are talking about on the other side piece of fucking revolution. So I'm like, oh, shit. And I looked up and then they just like rushed it. I was like, oh, fuck. So and my wife's like, call me like, get the fuck back here. Jesus. Mostly I was working. It was a weird turn. It was the height of Covid.
So mostly I was worried about it in Covid from the whole thing. Because we didn't know the whole outside rule back then. But anyways, yeah, so I wanted to write about a fascist threat that comes from someplace different from people sort of using our own system against us and using that system to sort of turn us to weaken our ability to vote and to weaken our voices in our own government. And that's what Animal Pound's about. So it's not about sort of this old sort of communism.
It's about sort of this new fascism that's arising today that I feel is more threatening. very relevant. Yeah, I find it kind of fascinating that, you know, in this first issue, again, try to avoid spoilers as much as possible, because I definitely want people to go out and read Animal Pound number one before we know we talk about it in depth.
But what I found really interesting and you kind of alluded to it here just a moment ago, is that like the way that two opposite completely opposite sides can work together for one goal. But it's almost like what happens after that goal is accomplished. Does the like kind of embedded.
I'm trying to think of a better word, a more romantic way to say this, but like does like the deeply embedded almost sort of like to make a pun animalistic type of like impulse take over once you've accomplished that sort of all in one goal? Well, I mean, issue two is out now. So I don't know if you guys have read it. I haven't read issue two yet myself.
You see them try to sort of form the government between the cats and the dogs and issues about why they sort of need the government, how they're running out of food and how they try to manage without a government. It doesn't work. And then the problem sort of immediately arises that there's more cats than dogs. And so the dogs are like, go fuck yourself. We're not gonna form a government with you, because there'll just be cat rule forever. And then there's also a few rabbits who are around.
And then the dogs are like, the rabbits are gonna support you, because they support small animals and we're big and we wanna eat them. And so the compromise they reached, because the dogs are gonna walk out and they need the dogs, because they're the most powerful and they're the ones who sort of started the revolution.
The compromise they reach is to do it by pounds, which is why the book's called Animal Pound, where they say, well, instead of, yes, there's more cats than dogs, but dogs weigh more, so if we do it by weight, we're suddenly equal again. And that way we can have an equal government. And that's sort of the great compromise they reach, which is similar to how we had sort of our electoral college, where it was like, the South was like, shit, you're gonna outlaw slavery.
You know, you have more people than we do. We're like, oh, no, we'll kind of we'll do a different weighted system. So you get some you get some more votes and we will see throughout the how that compromise the compromise of pounds over votes sort of ends up being the tragedy of the whole thing. Well, you know, this I think is kind of like a beautiful transition into more sort of like political overtones over at your other title, which is I swear to God, I don't try to write politically.
I just want to entertain people. Well, you know, when it's when there's a lot of truth to it, it makes sense and it's awesome. And, you know, I hate books that read like Twitter feeds. I can't stand them. The books that are just like, here's my opinion on what's going on. I fucking I just want to tell stories. I hate that. What you said this in another. I think it's good. I'm sorry. I'll tell you this. I bring this up every episode, every interview.
I'm the new comic book reader of of the crew here. I've just been reading for a couple of years. Welcome to the news. Thank you. We're not doomed, but we're trying. That's our official motto. That's a good motto. I think DC should start using that. I am seeing a trend recently of a lot of relative, like relevant, excuse me, relevant topics in comics.
And it really is, it's pulling me in even further because I like the kind of the parallels of real world and, you know, the comic universes and how they have their own commentary in it. Political or not, you know, Animal Pound is brutally in your face honest for multiple layers. It's like, you know, it's like, Shrek, you know, it's got layers, you know, and I love it. So like, I don't think that, you know, I wouldn't say that it's necessarily political.
I would just, I would use more of the term it's relevant. It's currently and modern, modern, modernly relevant. One of the strengths and weaknesses of the comic medium, and I mean, we can argue where it comes from. I think it comes from kind of the improvisatory nature of the medium and the fact that just we produce so much content so quickly.
that writers and artists have to sort of scrape themselves and scrape the world around them to make what they can, is that comic books are usually of their time. And what I mean is you go back and read a 1940s comic and you're in the 1940s, you're with their values. It's less transcendent than some of the movies of the period. There's in the 50s, 60s, when you're reading 80s comics, you feel like you're in the 80s.
When I watch Back to the Future, it feels very 80s, but it also feels relevant today. You don't say like like comics don't age as well as other mediums. Sometimes you have to kind of be in that mood and kind of see if they're thinking. So I think comics can't help us sort of reflect what they are just in almost the way they're made. We were just too desperate for material. We have to we have to take something from where we are. I think that's a great point.
It's important to read comics sort of like in a bottle. Right. I mean, you go back and read some of the Claremont X -Men stuff and some of that stuff is not aged well. But if you kind of remember where he was and where the. maybe some of the culture was or what maybe he was trying to say. And that's just one example, of course, but like you're absolutely right. They all reflect kind of of the time.
And that's I think that's a that's it's a nice kind of way to kind of capture the moment, you know, capture the art in that moment. Yeah, I it's a wonderful historical document to sort of where the culture is. And yeah, you can go back to the 60s and read like super crazy Archie comics where it feels like you're just being fun of the Beatles and you can, you know. go to the nineties and feel the grunge. Like you can get all the feelings of our entire American history and sort of the comics.
It's one of the pleasures of the medium. Yeah. Well, and curses. That's right. You know, again, I kind of alluded to a moment ago, but what I find fascinating about your next title that we're going to talk about, which is Wonder Woman, is that and we're only up to issue six, you know, at the time of this recording is how precisely you've integrated modern issues like xenophobia, misinformation, or excuse me, misinformed political rhetoric powered by extremist ideologies.
and the power of the loud minority in our country and around the world into this plot. And there's a very specific sentence in, I want to say - But the last book was just people punching each other. I swear to God, it's not that. And you know, what's funny about that last issue, issue six, is that there's a very specific quote or specific line from that issue that I think really speaks to what I think this first arc is about. And I think it's the sovereign that says this.
They say, we do not desire her death. there's too much risk in martyrdom. The dead can overthrow an empire the living can hardly touch. My question for you is, am I correct in reading that the ultimate goal of Sergeant Steele and the Sovereign in this first arc and in the story is not to kill Diana, but to destroy her legacy? Yeah, that's a little Jesus reference. I don't know. Sometimes I get a little religious. Yes, that's exactly what it is.
I mean, you'll learn why, but the sovereign feels that what Wonder Woman represents is the sort of greatest threat to what he represents. And he sees her as kind of like a second American revolution. And he's doing everything he can to stop that from sort of overthrowing his own power. And what Wonder Woman represents is, you know, all of it is good. And she represents everything I had an issue for her and that kid. Just choosing love over hate sounds like stupid, like hippie shit.
But she says that while she kicks someone in the face. And also just the idea that the power, basic American values, which to me seem zero, the way everyone in this country is raised, I feel like, I don't know why it's controversial, but basic American values of like, everybody is equal, everybody should have a stay. No matter where you are born or who you are at your birth or who you choose to be, you get an equal voice and you get an equal chance and an equal opportunity.
Like that's what Wonder Woman stands for. And he ends as the sovereign who gets his power from, you know, his hereditary power and gets his power from, you know, who his father was and who his grandfather was and gets his power from. the lies of his lasso that's just everything she's not. I mean, it's not like super super Wonder Woman is a very superhero comic. It's not as subtle as hopefully some of the other stuff I'm writing. But but but to me it's still powerful.
Yeah. And I love the you know, you just mentioned Jack and that I think it was issue five that whole you know, bringing Jack kind of giving him his day and you know, That is kind of hokey and it is kind of like, oh, it's, you know, she, she did everything just to give them one great day. But that's like, that's like totally that's that's superheroes, man. Like that's totally, I think that's more like DC superheroes than anything.
It's just like Superman, Wonder Woman, these characters who are okay being kind of like silly and dopey and I like, not dopey is probably not a great word to say, but like kind of just like, I think you use the correct word hokey, you know, like it's just like, we're kind of nerdy and good, but we own it. Right. Yeah, it's corny. It's you know, this is me learning from from some of my peers and mainly from Tom Taylor, although I hate to give that fucking Australian credit.
But I love his nightwing is his book. But what I love most about it, and I'm someone who wrote Grayson. So I wrote some nightwing is we were doing Grayson. We were kind of, you still under Dan DeDio at the time. And Dan was very much especially with the Grayson character. I like Danny's a personal. I like it as a person. But. Especially with Dick Grayson. He's like, don't give the audience what they want. They want Barbara and Dick. Don't give it to them.
You know, you have to you maybe you can tease that for one thing, but as soon as they get it, you kind of ruin the story. You know, don't give them super handsome, Dick. Don't give them, you know, like, like kill him, you know, torture him. And I was like, yeah, you know, it's my first book. I was like, do it. And then I saw Tommy's like, I'm just going to give people what they want with this book. I'm just going to show you why this is a character that you love.
And you know, all the things you love about the character here they are on the page. And I was like. Oh, that's a fucking brilliant way to write a superhero book. And so I stole that from Wonder Woman. Don't tell Tom that he's got a big enough fucking ego. And so every issue of Wonder Woman is just about how awesome she is. That's that's that's it's different aspects of it. But but it just it ends with her always sort of showing another why she's awesome. And the same way Tom does it.
I mean, that's it's hopefully it's flattery and not just copying. If I could pick your brain slightly on one particular aspect of this first arc of Wonder Woman, Aaron and I, we actually met while we were in the army together. We were in the army. I mean, I was in the army from 2010 to 2014. We were stationed down in Fort Stewart and Savannah, Georgia. And obviously you spent some time in the, in the military or the military service. Oh yeah. Of course. I've no idea. People say that to me.
I have no idea what the fuck to say. I mean, I'll put you in the, you're welcome. Thank you for your service. Yeah, of course. Yeah. No, I got fucking paid. I probably got paid better than you all.
Well, and there's a character in this story that Delgado, who I think is kind of a very truthful depiction of sort of like this, I'm going to say American dream in quote, quotations here, where if you grow up in a small Midwestern town, everyone tells you to go to the military, serve your country, protect freedom, all these things. And like what, what freedom are we protecting anymore? that everyone tells you is this like, this is this beautiful, amazing thing that you're doing.
And at the end of the day, it's scary. And, and regardless of whether you're actually, you know, again, quote unquote, protecting freedom, it's scary. And these 18, 19, 20 year olds are still doing it. And Delgado is like this perfect fixture for that idea, you know, as far as like a young person joining the military, which both Aaron and I, and I think Tom you did as well. And of course his demise is almost like poetic in the sense that.
The United States military is the leader in suicide across every single organization. I would say in the world that might be hyperbolic. I'm not sure, but it sounds right. And it's all for a lie. So I want to hear you kind of elaborate on that decision for this story. I mean, first I should say like, I'm deeply patriotic. I still have it in me. I'll never wash it out. I thought you hate America. I love this goddamn country. I do not regret a moment I spent in its service.
And to me, you know, I served right after 9 -11. I mean, I served in Iraq, which was kind of stupid because I was like, I'm going to fight terrorists and I go fight Saddam. You're like, is he a terrorist? Don't worry about it. You know, it's like. But but I believe strongly in that mission of stopping sort of the further 9 -11 from happening and keep keeping. keeping the people that are struggling in this country safe. And I fucking believe in the American dream. I'm still that idiot.
I still do. I'm sorry. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I just watched that. I just listened to America. Fuck yeah. Too many times. I forgot it was ironic. And so all of that is true to me. But I do think what that scene was about was, I think there's a lie about. that sovereign was kind of the sort of lie of, I don't wanna say masculinity, that's the wrong thing, but like this lie that you kind of have to be a certain type of person to be a strong American, I guess is the way I would put it.
Sense of duty, maybe? Yeah, sense of duty or a sense of like, you have to conform to a certain stereotype to be a great American hero. You know, gotta be the fucking Marlboro man. And anyone who's studied the history of the country, man, there are some fucking awesome Marlboro, man. But there's also some heroes who were just from all sorts of weird places. Einstein wasn't a Marlboro man, but he fucking contributed, you know.
I know he wasn't American, but he came here and did this did this shit, you know. Or if you want to do Enrico Fermi, who helped us, you know, win World War Two, do that, you know, like there it takes all types of incredible Americans to make this fucking thing work. And that's kind of what it was about. Like the sovereigns like. I want you to conform to this certain type who would be alienated in this certain type of way and to be just, you know, you got to fit into this one square peg.
That's what a goddamn American military Patriots like. And Delga is like, that's not who I am. What are you talking about? I was like, hold this rope. That's who you are now. You know, and that's what and essentially that's what he says. Like he killed himself because he couldn't be this type because Wonder Woman made him feel ashamed or something for some bullshit like that. So, yeah, that's to me what that sort of scene was about. Yeah, that makes sense.
You said something earlier that I think is kind of interesting is that like, Aaron, I'll kind of speak for you a little bit. If you want to jump in here a little bit, being patriotic doesn't, you know, there's a certain amount of truth that you have to have in order to be like, I think the honest patriotic, like we have, the country has flaws, but I still love it. And what, what America. Yeah, exactly. That's what, that's what, that's what this country was supposed to be great.
Because we have a constitution that can be amended because we can change and be better. That's what I always like about this country. At least it used to be that way. America is not great for what it is. It's what it can be, I think, is ultimately the way I kind of feel. That's what the American dream is. It's the aspirations of becoming something better than what you were or are. To have the capability to have the freedom.
That's the American dream to be able to pursue those things that make you happy, that make you better than what you were. I could go on all day about the issues that I see in society and why America is kind of not necessarily aspiring to be that better, greater country that we always were, that we were built, that was the idea that we were built on as a country was we left our sovereign leaders. our sovereign king to come over here to pursue what we wanted to become and be better.
And, and, you know, right now we're not really, we're not really indemnifying that we're not really, you know, portraying that idea of being better. We want to be, I don't know. I don't know if we're saying that we are, but we're having it. We are as a country. I know this is getting. really fucking skewed here for this conversation, but we are having an identity crisis as a country right now. And that's what we need to solve as somebody who grew up with a severe identity crisis and didn't know.
Thank God the military was there for me to help me to basically aim this gun of a person to figure out, you know, to give him purpose and figure out what he needed to do to become his own person. Our country is facing an identity crisis. And unfortunately we don't have hokey superheroes like, you know, like Wonder Woman who have, who, clearly portray those ideas. You know, so that's the unfortunate thing of what we're going through, in my opinion, as a country.
I mean, I don't want to get all political. Let me let me let me get a positive spin on it just to close it up. At least how I try to be optimistic about shit is was like, you know, Germany faced its fascist moment and was like, yeah, OK, we'll go with it. You know, we we face and we're still facing our fascist moment and we fucking overcame it. You know, we didn't let it wash us down the stream.
Our system looked like it was falling apart, but in the end it did a little bit of holding, like it held. It didn't collapse like Germany collapsed or like the Russians collapsed or like China, maybe you can look at China collapsing during. Our system for all it's fucking false. We're still here, we're doing okay, we can talk on this podcast. I can say the word fuck a lot, nobody's coming to get me yet. So. Get a voice. I'm going to be the optimistic one on this podcast.
Can I spin it really quick to make it positive? The Wonder Woman talk positive because I love the backup stories between Damien, John and Lizzie. Yes, let's talk about that because that's so much fun. That's the best part of those goddamn issues. No offense to Daniel, who is killing it. Daniel is amazing. Yeah, but Belen is incredible as well at these stories. And the line, I think, in issue six where Damien is telling Lizzie a story to make her go to sleep.
And he says, and that's how Final Crisis really ended true story. Look it up. I literally LOLed while reading it. It was the funniest thing ever. I cannot tell you how much fun I have writing those writing those things. It's I did it two weeks. I write them in one week. I write three eight page stories and it's the best week of my life when I'm writing them. I'm just laughing. I'm telling my kids how to go. They're they're criticizing me because I'm not getting shit right.
It's. So I talked to Belen at New York Comic Con, but you're probably there. And she came up to me and she was really pissed at me. Not like super pissed, but she's like, why did you make me draw kangaroos? She's Spanish. Why did you make me draw kangaroos? I have no idea how to draw kangaroos. I live in Spain. And so I wanted to make up for it. And she's like, what do you want to draw? What can I have? I'll put anything in there. And she's like, there's only two things I want to draw.
I was like, what is this? She's like, I want to draw samurais and I want to draw corgis. So in the next backup, you will see a Samurais, and the one after that, you will see Corgis. Because that was my assignment I was given in terms of boxes. But there's some awesome stuff coming up, man, in those backups. Every one of them is fun. They're going to learn to fly a kite. They're going to something that looks a lot like a Taylor Swift concert, but it's a Black Canary concert. And...
Yeah, the backups are the most, I love Trinity, I love writing her, I love the three of them, they have such very fun chemistry. Because the two brothers fight and then she's just off being wild. Yeah, it's my favorite, sorry, I'm just admiring my own writing, but my favorite line in that thing, if that's your favorite line, is when they, John wants to get her ice cream and Damien yells at her and is like. You found the only thing more vanilla than you actual fucking vanilla.
That is something totally that Davey would say. And, uh, that made me laugh. Yeah. I don't get to write those kinds of lines. Wonder woman never says that. It's just sovereign. I mean, we should fix that. So you've been on an insane run of critical successes with a danger street Gotham city year one, super girl, one of tomorrow.
Love Everlasting, The Winning Card from The Brave and the Bold, Human Target, and everything else we've talked about during this conversation, especially your Teen Titans. Teen Titans Annual. Six pages, I think it was. Teen Titans Annual, yeah. Me and Will Pfeiffer, killing it. The debut of Chimera, man, she took off. She lit up she'll show up at the DCU at some point. Yeah, she's gonna be huge. So from Bilqis to Jorge Fornes to Elsa Chardier to Mitch Garad.
to Daniel Sanpere, to Greg Smallwood, the interiors have been insanely beautiful and complement to your, like a total compliment to your remarkable scripts. All that saying, how much are you involved in the process of picking these collaborators for these stories? I mean, the shitty answer is it depends. I apologize that that's the shitty answer. I mean, I just gave you the great example of me begging Bill, because don't think I didn't beg Greg when we came off of Human Target.
I was like, Greg, please, let's do the next thing together. And he's like, no, I got a thing lined up. I was like, oh, fuck you. So it depends on who says yes. A lot of my artists who I love to work with, my best friends, Clayman, Doc Schaener, David Marquez, Elsa, Joelle, they all did this horrible, horrible thing where they hooked up with a writer that I couldn't compete with, which was themselves.
They're all writing for themselves now, so it's hard for me to throw that writer under the bus, like I would Mark Wade or something. I mean, like, Belen was suggested by my editor, Brittany Holzer, who's brilliant. Greg Smallwood was suggested by my editor, Ben Abernathy, who's equally brilliant. Jorge I can take credit for. Jorge Fornes is the one artist I can really take credit for. Where I was on Batman, he would send me his little splashes he drew on Twitter.
I think he was doing like an aftershock. book or something like that, like a small publisher book. And I took his pages to DC and I was like, this guy should be on Batman. And they're like, that's insane. He's just a guy you know on Twitter. I was like, look at these pages. And they're like, he just looks like Mazzichelli, like as if it was a bad thing. I was like, yes, he looks like Mazzichelli. What do you mean? That's exactly why I love him.
So I and I and you know, for some reason they didn't dig. I mean, that's why we did Rorschach, because that was sort of the compromise. They're like, I'll do Rorschach, this book you want me to do if I can have Jorge. And so yeah, that's the one I can take credit for is is is Jorge. Yeah. Well, Tom, we have one final question for you. And unfortunately, we have to ask you about DC Studios. Oh, you're going to get an answer that you're not going to believe, man.
This is going to fucking blow your mind. It was recently announced that House of the Dragons Millie Alcock will be playing Carr in the DCU, which is exciting. But also James Gunn has been pretty vocal about how he, you know, reveres your work. So much so that we recently spotted you at a DC Studios meeting where he named you as one of the quote, architects of the DCU. So Tom, we know that you can't really talk about specifics.
We're not going to ask you anything specific that you've worked on or anything like that. But outside of Supergirl, which upcoming DC Studios project are you most looking forward to? That's such a nice question. I appreciate you ask it. It's very awesome. You're just going to get a shitty ass answer from me. You're going to give us the PR answer. It's no, I'm not going to say I'm just gonna be like everything is great and wonderful and I look forward to everything. Blah, you fucking blah.
Like it's nothing. You're going to get nothing out of me. It's not worth me even saying it out loud. You know, it's just that's that's what you're going to get. Everything is great and everything is wonderful. You can't say what like like the like when you're when you're excited about perhaps. No, I can't say shit. That's all I'm saying. I'm saying I just told you everything is why would I be excited when everything is wonderful and magical? You're excited about everything.
Everything is wonderful and great. Yeah, that's my link twice of its creature. That's my horribly boring boring shitty answer and I apologize if that's all I can say. That's all I can say. It's all wonderful. It's all great. Everyone is great. No need to apologize. We appreciate your candid tight lippness. Maybe maybe we can get something from you at a con or something when we're not recording or anything like that. But as soon as they free me, man, I can't wait to talk about it.
We're excited for you because that's really awesome. I mean, looking at this picture that James posted online, I mean, you're in a room full of just absolute creative giants and the room where it happened. And it's just it's super cool that, you know, I will say, you know, if any PR is listening, I'm just very excited that not only are they involving a comic creator in this process, but they are, you know, involving one of the best, if not the best comic creator in this process.
So that's all. It's Tom Taylor going to be there. Holy. That fucking guy. But, you know, like I said, I just wanted to at least see if you if you could answer anything. Totally understand why you can't. But I appreciate the questions, Greg. It's a great question. I'm sorry for the shitty answer. I have a statement for Mr. King. Is it about heroes in crisis? I lots of things happen. No, it's it's about Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow. And I just wanted to say that.
as the first, like I've read the entire thing, I've been to the entire thing in one sitting and I absolutely like loved it. And even what, I don't know. Are you an anime fan at all? No, that's not my nerd. That's the one thing I'm shitty when it comes to anime and manga. I was gonna say there's like one particular superhero, his name's One Punch Man. I know One Punch Man. I'm like at least a See, you're a little anime nerd.
So he's got, you know, he's kind of like got this nonchalant attitude about like, cause he knows that he can pretty much beat anybody with one punch. And like, I loved kind of this attitude from Kara during, you know, Woman of Tomorrow and just like her kind of nonchalant, like the entire time, you know, she's underpowered because the, you know, not having the yellow sun, but I just think that her attitude, it just, I love the way that you wrote her attitude. like throughout this entire series.
And I just wanted to say like just from all the depths of the story, the moral issues that they both had to face, both Ruby and Kara, I just want to say well done. I'm sure you hear it from everybody, but I just, you know, I appreciate Chris for having me for suggesting that and I appreciate you for writing it. So thank you. I appreciate that. Let me give credit where it's due. Steve Orlando, the writer Steve Orlando, he was the first person I approached when I got the Supergirl gig.
And he's the one who sort of laid her character and kind of revealed to me sort of what she is and the sort of difference of, you know, her growing up on Krypton versus Superman, you know, like she'd been through something that was very eye opening. And my editors on that, Jamie Rich and Brittany Holzer, that book was originally pitched as Supergirl in sort of the Ruthie role as kind of the innocent. And it was them who said, what if she wasn't the innocent?
What if she was kind of the Rooster Cockburn? What if she what if she was, you know, the veteran? And that changed the whole that changed the whole book. So yeah, that attitude you read, that comes from Steve and Brittany and Jamie. So they deserve a lot of credit. Where can I look to get more information? And maybe you're not the person, but I assume that you're the person to ask about this. On the Central Intelligence Agency? Oh, we'll talk.
Yeah, I need more information on where I can look for how you developed, you know, or like how kind of you pulled Comet into this. into the story. Like that was just love. I don't know anything about Comet and he just shows up and it's just like, boom, he's a man. Man. Yeah. Comet's a complicated character, man. Comet's because he's not a he's not a horse. He's a man, half man, half horse who happens to have transformed into a horse. Yeah. Who is in love.
If you want the craziest, there's a Lois Lane comic from, I think, like 1972. where Lois Lane falls in love with Comet the Horse. And I highly suggest if you want to read the craziest fucking comic book you ever read in your life. Sounds like somebody's weird kink. That is some weird ass Bob Canterger shit. Yeah. If the Silver Age was anything, it was kinky. So I'll just say that. I think it's like 92 or something. It's in the 90s.
Yeah. Lois Lane. Well, Tom, once again, we want to thank you for coming on to the show now for, again, the third time to discuss your work and. I would generally say that we hope to have you back on in the future. But again, this being your third time, we'll just say that we'll see you next time that you're on. All I'm saying is I see fucking Christian Ward on here doing number four. He's not even a goddamn American. He's a Brit. Here I am talking.
James Tynan and Christian will be on in like a month. So you guys, you've got some competition for that fourth. Oh, he's already coming back. He's already coming back. Goddamn, goddamn. You know what, just start every time we do a show, just send Tom a link that way he can just pop in randomly. Say hi to Christian and congratulate him on passing me and breaking my fucking record. I'm always in his shadow. I get it. Well, we'll pass the tone off to you one more time.
Is there anything that you want to plug? Any socials you want to highlight before we let you go? I just want to say thank you. Just thank you to the people who are picking up Supergirl. Thank you for the people who are reading my books. My books are weird. They're off center. They're like, I talk with animal pants. And so they only people only buy them because people recommend them. That's the only way they get in all the hands. And I just want to say thank you. Thank you. Offer spread the word.
That's it. Just get that out there. Cool. Our pleasure. Well, Tom, once again, thank you so much. And we will talk to you soon. Thanks guys. Alrighty. There's that conversation with Tom. Once again, Mr. King Thomas, sir, Tom, thank you so much for coming onto the oblivion bar podcast. Always a pleasure.
As I said there in that conversation, it's always just, it's wonderful to not only sit down with one of your favorite creators in the medium, but also just like be able to have a great conversation. Like again, Aaron, as you had said at the beginning of the show, he is just a fun person to talk to. He is always just like very insightful, very accepting person to kind of bounce ideas off of.
And you know, one of these days I'd love to, like you said, Aaron, I'd love to just maybe have them on the show and loosely talk about comics, but have it be less about like promoting. a certain title, but maybe just like talk about the medium as a whole and things that he really enjoys about it, things that he wants to try in his career, what have you.
I have no doubt, as I said a moment ago during the conversation, I have no doubt that Tom will be on for a fourth time at some point and try to extinguish Christian Ward's current lead as our top guest here on the Abilby Mar podcast. I also just want a video of his office. I know, right? Like of everything on his walls and in his office. because as we're interviewing him, it's so hard not to get distracted and look at, cause he has like graded slabs behind him of very prestigious issues.
He's got golden age stuff, golden age stuff, stuff on his walls. I would love like just be a fly on his wall and look at everything in there. It would be amazing. Yeah, absolutely. Well, everybody that'll do it for episode 148 of the oblivion bar podcast. Once again, thank you, Tom King for coming on the show. Go get Helen of Winhorn this week. the week that this releases, Helen of Winhorn comes out that Wednesday. So make sure you guys go and grab Helen of Winhorn.
You cannot put it out into the universe enough that this is a great comic. And if again, as Tom said in the conversation, if you love Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow, which I think most of you listening to this right now do, you will also love Helen of Winhorn. So next week on the show, Aaron, we're gonna keep this interview train rolling with another, one of the best writers in comics, Rom V. And he's not alone, by the way.
Rom V is actually being joined by, and I don't think he's been on many shows besides ours, Evan Kegel, who is the artist of Dawn Runners. And that's what we're here to talk about next week on the show with Rom and Evan. It's their new Dark Horse series, Dawn Runners. It is Pacific Rim plus your favorite manga. Like it's all the things. It is like, it's truly, it's a mixture of things. I was trying to find like a romantic way to kind of intertwine a bunch of different. Like influences.
I didn't do it very well, but I will say that like when you're reading it, when you're reading it, you will pick up, Oh, ghosts in the shell. That's another one. I was, I know there was, there was a very specific one in my brain that I was thinking about, but think like Pacific rim ghosts in the shell and like a mixture of other different anime and mangas. Like what they're doing with Dawn runner over at dark horse.
I think again, kind of similar to Helen of Windhorn Dawn runner is going to be one of those highly coveted, critically acclaimed books in the medium going into the spring. So. Be on the lookout for that episode next week. Aaron, take us out of here. Subscribe to our podcast, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Audible, iHeartRadio, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, you'll find us, because that's where we are.
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