INTERVIEW: Scott Snyder

Hey, this is Scott Snyder, the writer of American Vampire, Barnstormers, Witches, White Boat, and Batman, lots of other comics, and you are listening to the best comic podcast around, the Oblivion Bar podcast. Welcome to the Oblivion Bar podcast with your host Chris Hacker and Aaron Knowles. Hello, everyone. Welcome to episode one fifty four of the Oblivion Bar podcast, the official podcast of the fancy shop in St. Charles, Missouri. I am your 19th century cowboy slash vampire Chris Hacker.

And joining me this week is the man known across the multiverse simply as the Aaron who laughs. My co -host and BFF Aaron Knowles. So, buddy. Hello. Hello. Quick question. You ever. Yeah. You ever burp and it smells like something other than what you ate? No. Did that just happen to you? Yeah, I burped earlier and it smelled exactly like hot dogs. No hot dogs. No hot dogs today. I know. Wow. You might want to get that checked out.

We need to call somebody call a specialist on that one because I have I have no answers for you. I have no idea. I'm definitely not going to ask about it on Facebook. No, don't do that. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Oblivion Bar podcast. Aaron, this week on the show, we are joined by and I'm glad that we start off this interview with just the most random bullshit of all time, because this week on the show we are joined by essentially the.

common denominator behind everything that is both the oblivion bar and my love of the medium. Scott Snyder joins the show to talk about fucking man himself, the man himself. Yes. Talk. He's coming to talk about a lot of things, but most notably white boat. Aaron, before we get into the conversation, I kind of want to just like preemptively warn the listener because let me just say a couple of things first. First of all, again, Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo's quarter vows Batman run.

Essentially created my fandom of comics like formative foundational like idea ideology right there. 100 % Yeah. I very vividly remember going to my local comic book shop here in Indy, which was downtown comics around the new 52 era and only having court of vows and Kyle Higgins is a nightwing run at that time, which was kind of basically just circling the court of vows storyline in the Batman book.

So. Having Scott finally on the show, only 150 episodes later into the Abelvibars history is a big deal for me, right? I will say though, Aaron, and you can back me up here and tell me what you think. During this conversation, we kind of tried to center the conversation around his new distillery book with Francisco Francovia White Boat, which comes out the week that you're listening to this conversation. He did not want to talk about this book at all, did he? It didn't feel like it.

Like, it's not like he avoided it. No. It's just like there were other things that he just like really wanted to discuss. Yeah. And we're here to listen. Right. That's why we're here. We're just we're just along for the ride. The creators are here to have the conversation. We just feed the beast a couple of questions and prod the bear. You know?

Yeah. And I don't want anybody, you know, if for some reason Scott is listening to us or anybody who's a fan of Scott, trust me, this is a great conversation. It's just that, number one, we barely talk about white belt because a neither Aaron or I have read the entire thing. But B, He wanted to talk about DC. So if you wanted to hear a very DC centric Scott Snyder conversation, buckle up because you're about to get that in tenfold.

But it seems like we had, it seems like all he wanted to do was talk about DC. And again, as you just said, Aaron, we're here for it. We are. We are nothing but a vessel for Scott Snyder and his venting session. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, any creator that comes by, we're going to let you have the floor. I might ask you a long witted question about like something that doesn't matter. But you know, majority of the time they have a moose bouche of the conversation. Yeah, the floor is yours.

Whoever decides to come on the Ablobion Bar. So that'll come up here in just a moment, Aaron. Before we get in that conversation with Scott Snyder, I want to briefly talk about P2E2. Well, yeah, we will talk about Patreon here in just a moment. But I'm going off script here. I know we often stick very strict to the transcript. I know. Listen, I'm still... You? I'm jazzed, Aaron. I'm feeding off the energy that is our entire weekend. Let me see your hands. Jazz hands.

You guys can't see him, but I'm doing the jazz hands right now. Great weekend in Chicago, Aaron. Let's talk a little bit about it. I want to mention just kind of offhandedly that we will go much more in depth. Speaking of Patreon over on Patreon, but I'm going to pass it to you. Tell the folks a little bit about our weekend. And unfortunately we didn't work together, so we didn't get to spend a ton of time together. But you know, we'll go back and forth on what we kind of did.

Yeah, so it was a it was despite not working like it's completely different having. Like not being with you at a convention like this, this being my, my first C2E2, this being your what? Fourth? Fifth. Fifth. Yeah. Man, what a show. Like, you know, the first day, I know you got there Thursday as well. I got there Thursday. The first day on Friday, we had our panel at 1115, at S 405 B, which was like the back hall. Like we were truly off the beaten path. Yeah. We, we were like, bad as shit.

You know, they were banished all the way to the back of the hall, but we had, we were right next to the janitor's closet. We had a fun, we did have a fun crowd though.

We had several people, you know, it's, it's weird cause like, it's not like a, like a fully loaded room, you know, but we had people that came and when you, when you like are there and like somebody comes up and says, You know, I came to this, I came to this panel because I saw you guys or I saw you on the website and I wanted to, you know, great show or something that like, that's all you need.

It could be one person in the audience, but one person, but it was more, you know, we had several people and even if they just wanted like free stickers, you know, the fact that they came in and listened and then came up and told us how much they enjoyed it was like, I don't know. It was like something. It was something. It's, it's a fee, you know, to take a term from our friends over at the combo of a couple's counseling, it fills your love tank. Yeah, yeah. Almost immediately.

The moment, like you said, the moment you have just a couple of folks come in and listen to you talk about comics with your friends, the short box, Bader Milligan and Greg and Andy from the first issue club that immediately you just again, you could have literally two to three people come in to a panel and we're not. And listen, everybody, we will never tell you how many people were actually at this panel. You'll never hear it unless you go to a patron.

Maybe we'll tell our patrons that it could have been a full house. It could have been less than 10. You'll never know. But regardless of how many people were actually there. It was an awesome time. The panel was a true highlight not only for the show, but the entire weekend. I took pictures of the just like the sign that had, you know, our time slot on it and our, you know, our show name and time slots. And like that right there is prestige enough for me.

The fact that we had they had to make that they had to hire someone to make that sign. They paid. They paid to have real money. Yes. And the fact that we got to like just. sit there in a room at C2E2 that was that was set up for us specifically for us for our show. We had somebody there doing sound for our show. We had, you know, a group of people of like minded friends, new and old, new and old. And it was just like that's it was it was amazing. It was amazing.

Well, I'll tell you, I'm still on the hunt for that infamous little nameplate. You know, they used to give them out at cons. You just say like Chris Hacker, Aaron Knowles. of the oblivion bar podcast and would have like the C2E2 logo. Still haven't gotten one. We've done two panels. Haven't gotten a freaking nameplate and I'm truly bummed about that at least.

But Aaron, I will tell you the one thing that I'm not bummed about was that later that evening on Friday at C2E2 we had a chance to sit down with my first crush ever. That makes a lot of sense now, right? Is it connecting the dots? I'm connecting the dots. It makes a lot of it all started with Amy Jo Johnson. We had a chance to sit down with her. Yep. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And let me tell everybody you'll get to listen to this conversation next week for episode one. Fifty five.

Truly wonderful. Like an absolute gem of a person. It was so great to talk to her. I'll tell you, we didn't talk about it at all in the weekend or during the conversation. But re -listening that episode while editing it, Amy has one of the most infectious laughs ever. So keep an ear out for that when you're listening to the conversation, because every time she laughed, Aaron and I, I remember one time she laughed. She like we actually got like a couple of guttural laughs out of her.

I would look over at you and we're both laughing because she's laughing. Like I'm still in awe of the opportunity. Like the awe opportunity. So it's, I know it's, it doesn't feel real to be able to like sit less than like two feet away from it. And she's like, that was the coolest thing was like getting to like, you like, she did, like she paid attention to you. Not like somebody who was just like, You know, like kind of like sitting there doing an interview.

No, she like literally looked right at us and was like discussing and wanted to be there and wanted to have this conversation. And it was just an absolute honor of a moment. She so didn't have to be there. Right. Like she just just absolutely did not have to take the request. Even if she had said yes, what months ahead of time, she could have easily said no, I would have probably still been huge fans of hers.

But the fact that she followed through and she was very tired during that conversation, as were we. We all had long days at the con. But I'm really proud of that interview. I'm really proud of how we all kind of band together and made that happen. And the conversation we had was something that I think the listeners are really going to enjoy. We'll talk more about C2E2 over on Patreon if you give a crap about any of that episode 124. That'll be our episode.

I think it'll come out the week before this episode with Scott Snyder. But speaking of that, Aaron, briefly, Patreon .com forward slash oblivion bar pod. We just said it for your support. You could have access to the grid, which is what we're just talking about. Our weekly bonus podcast. Episode transcripts, early access to these normal episodes you're listening to right now. And Aaron will give you a special shout out at the end of each of these oblivion bar episodes.

It's the best way to support the show. Everything that we get from Patreon goes right back. We funnel it back into the show to make it better. And it's something that, again, speaking of filling up your love tank, any time that Aaron and I, when we get a new patron on for the oblivion bar, we send it to each other. We get all excited. I mean, we consider anybody who listens to show a friend for the patron, patron members, the programs, as we like to call them, and David.

You know, those guys truly are. They're special. They have a special corner in our heart. Absolutely. They've cornered our heart. That's right. That's right. Well, OK, enough preamble. We have to talk to Scott Snyder again. Basically created the story that created my love of comics. Let's get into that with comic book writer Scott Snyder. Hey Aaron, how do you like to read your comic books digitally? Chris, it's funny that you should say that.

I just started buying and reading my comics on Omnibus. Ooh, interesting. I actually heard from a little birdie, it's actually backed by some of the top publishers in the medium. It also hosts an extensive back catalog from Image Comics, Boom Studios, Dark Horse, Ahoy Comics, Titan, Vault, and many more. And most importantly, Omnibus supports in -app purchases.

That little birdie is called X now, but also Omnibus has officially been made reading and buying comics digitally the easiest it's ever been. Wow, that's incredible. And you know what I'm going to do, Aaron? I'm actually going to go right now to my iPad iOS device and download Omnibus. And also right after that, I'm going to go follow them over on social media at the Omnibus app. Omnibus for fans, by fans. And now, this week's special guest.

Joining us this week on the show is the Eisner Award -winning writer of titles like American Vampire, Witches, Noctera, Undiscovered Country, Batman the Black Mirror, Justice League, DC Dark Nights Metal, Clear, The Wake, Swamp Thing, Barnstormers, and an epic five -year run on Batman that includes the creation of the Court of Owls.

More recently, he's been working on titles like Arkbound with co -creators Tom Hardy, Frank Thierry, and Ryan Smallman, Canary with artist Dan Panosian, Duck and Cover with artist Rafael Albuquerque, and he has re -teamed up with his Black Mirror partner, Francisco Franchivia, for White Bow at Distillery. It is my honor to welcome Scott Snyder onto the Oblivion Bar podcast. thanks for having me, Chris. I really appreciate it. It's great to be here.

I'm really, I was checking out everything that you guys do and I'm so impressed. You've had so many of my friends and inspirations on already, so it's a thrill to get to talk to you. well, thank you so much. That means a lot. And you've been on the you've been on the short list for quite some time. And I think I've sort of purposely wanted to I wanted to time your appearance here on the oblivion bar sort of perfectly, because I guess I'll get into that here in just a bit as to why that is.

I don't want to butter you up too early on in this conversation, but it will it will imbue like my origin with comics. So I'll just kind of tease it that way if I can. Yeah. Yeah. I'm easy to butter up. So. I'm like a compliment horse. I'm here for it. That's good to know. And I want to kind of build off what you were saying there a moment ago. We have had quite a few pretty big guests here on the show here recently. People like Tom King, Jason Aaron, Rom V and now you Scott.

And if I were to try to name some of the busiest writers in the medium working today, it would probably just, I would just list those four names again, you know, and you've been at this for quite some time and there seems to be no signs of you slowing down again. reference the intro that I just said a moment ago and the long list of your work there. So how do you continue to churn out so many of these compelling stories one right after another?

You know, they're more staggered than it seems as they come out. A lot of them are sort of worked on at different times. But I mean, the real answer is honestly, like I spent so much time at DC pouring. you know, all my creative energy into those characters who I love. And I love that job. And, you know, I know there are rumors about going back and doing more stuff, and I am excited to do that soon in some capacity, excited to plan some big things there.

But after like 10 years, I remember saying to myself in about 2018, 2019, like, I have to take a break because every single year I was there, every time my exclusive came up, I would fight for these carve -outs to be able to do some creative own work. and they would give them to me and then I wouldn't use them because I didn't have any energy.

Because you really do how you flex so many different muscles when you're in that zone and there's just a lot more maneuvering you have to do in addition to the creative. And it's not bad stuff. It's just like making sure that your story doesn't intersect with somebody else's story in a bad way, making sure the characters that you want are free, proposing an outline for that story well in advance, especially the kind of stuff that I was doing that tied into things, metal and.

you know, Justice League or death metal or all that stuff. So a lot of it required just a ton of extra energy. And so by the time that decade was over, I was just like, I don't care what happens, I don't care what they offer or who's here, who's not here, what's available. I really need to take a few years off and just be able to do all these ideas that had been in my head for a while. And I didn't know how I was gonna do them or where or any of that stuff, but I was like, I just wanna.

I want to get to do the stuff that some of my friends had been doing. I'm very close with Jeff Lemire and I had seen him do that a few years prior where he left and started creating all of these amazing books, like Black Hammer, all of the kind of bone orchard stuff, but on and on. He had all these books that I loved and I was just like, I have to do some of that. And so a lot of it is just like... It's so much easier to write creator -owned for me than write licensed stuff.

And it's not like a dip more joy, I love both things, but creator -owned, it's almost like an inverted system where with Batman, it's like, there are definitely people out there that know better than me, know more about Batman than me, know the world better than me, there are editors who have greater purchase on it and have control over it. And so you're always convincing people that you're the one to tell this next story.

You know, and that you're always convincing them like, trust me, I hope I love this character as much as you, let me say something through them. Whereas with creator on, nobody knows it as well as you, because you made it up. There's no sort of red tape, there's no worry or anxiety about it. So I write so much faster in that zone with the same level of attention to script. So. I think that's why I just was like, I'm going on a creative walkabout from 2020 to 2024.

I just want to try everything that I've always wanted to try and hopefully I can find some good publishing partners. And I was really lucky with Comixology and Dark Horse and IDW and yeah, man, it's been awesome. But I'm also ready, I think now after all that to come back to sort of more comfort zone stuff a little bit. Like White Boat is more comfort zone, it's horror, it's Francesco. some of the stuff I'm planning in a superhero space similar.

It's kind of coming back, trying stuff that it's very different, but that's like my home base, right? Horror and superheroes. So after a while of kind of spreading out, I'm kind of like, you know what, maybe I'll kind of circle back in and just try and do this again a little bit. Yeah, I will say it is slightly exciting to hear you talk about possibly going back to DC.

And because again, that kind of harkens back to some of my favorite work that you've done thus far in your career is a lot of stuff you've done at DC. But again, Don't get me wrong. I mean, I love goggle wearing Batman carrying around a baby dark side in his backpack or, you know, Jaro wearing the Robin costume, who ironically enough was also kind of like pseudo adopted by Batman. Why is Batman adopting all of these? I know it's probably because I'm a dad and I just like have a soft spot.

I wanted more kids and then we had one and we had our last kids. So I think I've stopped giving Batman children in my mind. So I don't think it'll happen again. Well, you know, my point is that. What you're doing with the story here currently and also like you said, a lot of your creator driven work at publishers like Dark Horse and Image Comics and this new endeavor with Ark Bound. It's just been really cool to see you take all these big swings.

So I think I'm kind of of up to mines here with this because I love what you're doing now. And I also am excited to see when you eventually get back to, you know, all Detective Comics. Yeah, man. Well, I kind of feel like thanks. I appreciate you saying that. I mean. You know, I teach this class on Substack and like it has the same two kind of twin rules that it's always had back when I taught college and undergrad or grad, like I've taught forever.

And I always had these same rules and they're each one is from one of the sort of best writing classes I had. One is like, you have to write the story that you would like to pick up that day more than any other one. It doesn't matter what it is. If it's political, if it's space opera, it doesn't matter to me. You just have to bring that. And then the second thing is, you have to really try and stay the most exciting writer to yourself, like at all times.

And, you know, for me, that sometimes that means trying things really outside my comfort zone. Like some of these books that wound up coming together the best, like Barnstormers or Canary or Dudley, like those are, or Book of Evil, a prose book with Jock. I mean, those are books that are far outside my comfort zone where, you know, I don't do a lot of historical fiction. romance or I don't do all ages and I don't, I'm very, you know, I used to do prose, but I'm really scared of it and rusty.

So being like, you know what, I want to try these things and just kind of, not just for experimentation, but because I have an idea for a book that fits that, just prove to myself that I'm not afraid to do that because the truth of the matter is like, at this point there is like a safety zone, right? And the safety zone for me would be to go do. superheroes in a safe way.

To go back and do something either at DC or Marvel that wasn't risky or wasn't a big swing, I have those muscles after a lot of years of working them out. So if you said, go back and do a Superman story that's six issues and do an action comics run that's short like that, that's not hard at this point. And I have ideas for those things. I have lots of ideas for Batman ones and for...

But what would get me excited to do superheroes is if they were like, you have to try something that nobody's tried, or you have to try something that we've never given anyone the opportunity to do before with this character, or like that's where I'm at with it now, or I don't wanna go back unless it's like something where I really get to take a swing. And they are really kind about that stuff, so I do feel excited about that zone. It's more just like.

The two zones I love the most are like do something that nobody, that you really, both ones have to start with what do you want to do? Like it can't be like you're doing it just for the sake of challenging expectations. But I mean like if you have a feeling about something you want to try, my two favorite areas for that are like one, something that nobody thinks you can do when it's like I have an idea for this, but I know no one, even I don't think I can do it. Well, let's try it.

Or. everyone thinks you've done this and you know how to do it, well, do it in a way they've never seen and better than they think you can in that zone. Those are the two challenges that always excite me the most. So the thing I hate the most is, and I can't do, honestly, is that I couldn't go back and do a six -issue Batman run on Batman, or I couldn't go back and do four -issue Superman story, or nothing against it for anybody else. It's just the kind of stuff that I don't.

I love superheroes and want to go back and do things with Marvel and all that stuff, but I want the chance to do things if I do it that really push me into an uncomfortable zone where I'm like, I really have to compete with the best stuff that I've done. And also then I have a total anxiety meltdown when I'm in that zone constantly too, so I don't know why the fuck I do it. I really do, I don't know why I do it. Tyler will vouch for me, but like, I push myself into this zone where it's like.

I don't think I can do this. Let's do it. And then I get there and I'm like, awesome, let's do it. And then the next day I'm like, my God, what have I done? Why am I here? I could be doing a six issue Aquaman story. What is my life? I don't know. I feel proud of that for what it's worth.

It's so interesting to hear you say that because I've heard you say in other conversations from years ago that when you first got onto Detective Comics, you were essentially just working on the backups and then they offered you Detective. And then you had the audacity to go, hey, I need to replace Mark Bagley and get somebody else in here because this story is, you know, and everybody who knows Mark Bagley, he's, and I think you would agree still to this day. Yeah. He's iconic. Right.

But like you have the, I'll say, you know, politically correct. You had the fortitude to say, this is not right for my story. And to hear you say now that I would love to go back to the big two because it is comfortable to a certain extent. It's just interesting to hear that juxtaposition compared to you reflecting on when you first started working on comics. Let's just say, you know, in the early 2010s era.

yeah, well I feel really strongly about like everything that I did at DC was uncomfortable for me when I did it. And if I went back now, I would do the same. So I don't think it's changed in that regard. Like what I mean is I try to approach it always like you only get one chance to write this character and you better write your best story ever. And that might mean doing something that nobody likes but you, but it has to be the best you. And so.

It's hard because it's been a long time since like quarter vowels and black mirror. And there wasn't the same kind of, social media sort of spotlight then that there is now where there's a lot of anger, a lot of excitement, a lot of promotion, Twitter and that stuff was relatively new back then in 2010. What we're doing right now, it didn't exist back then. Right. Really? So the thing I'd say is like, I got a lot of hate. for what we did back then.

The first issue of Detective, I got so many angry things because why would you make Jim Gordon a terrible father? That kid grew up to be a psychopath, possibly. What's the matter with you? Who do you think you are? You can't come in and change stuff that. I got a lot of that. And then with Court of Owls, I got more of that because... you think you can give Bruce a brother and why would you do that? And you can't mess with the Wayne family. How dare you?

You've been on the book a year and like all that. And same with you're making him look stupid because he didn't know, Bruce didn't know about this organization. And then Joker, I got it again with like you cut off his face. What's the matter with you? And then believe me, when we did the origin. that I got the worst. Somebody left like a thing in my mailbox once. They knew where I lived.

They like left something in my physical mailbox with no, so they knew where I lived and left it saying like I'd ruined the book. And so like, you know, the weird part is like, I know now because time has passed, they seem like the edges have kind of rubbed off a lot of that stuff. Not that it was so edgy back then, but it was always a mission to do the things that we thought. we would love and there was more friction and resistance than I think we sometimes let on with a lot of it.

I mean, we made Gordon Batman for eight months too. Like there was a lot of - The bunny suit. I got a lot of pushback. But you know, I think the fun and metal too, man, metal, they were like, you're making fun of the characters or you're taking light of an event. And, you know, and then that doesn't even begin to mention all the internal, the internal art battles at DC to get those things through. So for me, the - It's been a pretty straight line.

I mean, now I have a different relationship with DC. DC internally is a lot different. It was much more, I think it's fair to say, without throwing anyone under the bus in any really tea -spilling way. I think it was a lot more volatile then, and it was a lot more chaotic, and there was a lot more personality wars at DC years ago than there are now, and it made it an environment where sometimes you had to fight and yell a lot more than you do now.

which was a bad thing then, I'm not saying that was good. But I think a lot of that was a matter of like the time that I was there, and I don't want to go down, I'm not mean to go down a rabbit hole away from your question, but I think it kind of ties all together. I started there when they were a paper comic company in New York on 53rd Street and Broadway. And like the first year I was there, they got acquired by Warner Brothers. And then the third year I was there, they got moved to LA.

And then the fourth year I was there or whatever it was, AT &T. bought them and then the seventh or eighth year was like AT Discovery Plus or whatever came in and again, then now it's another a whole another revolution. And so the problem was sometimes like, nobody knew who their boss was, you know, at the time or you knew for a while, but you didn't know who was coming.

And so it became people in that environment sometimes get very excited to take a big swing or very scared of taking a big swing. And so it's internally or politically at companies where there's that kind of volatility, regardless not throwing anyone shade on any one particular person. It can just cause for a lot of different desires. Some people want to climb the ladder in the West Coast and become movie people. Some people just want to go back to New York and hate it. And there's a lot of this.

And so you have to fight all the time to keep them like, this is what we're trying to make in this comic over here, this thing. This is what it's about. This is why it matters. This is what it is. And so, yeah, you know, I feel as though it's always been that, like for me. So when it started on, like you said, Detective Comics, it was immediately like, this is my one chance. They're gonna fire me after a year.

I want it to be if I just swing for the fence, you know, and I don't care how angry they get. I'm gonna fight as hard as I can to get it. If I can't, that's okay, but I'm gonna try my best. And I always, the other thing I would say, and... This kind of speaks to some of the stuff I think the conversation in comics lately too is like, it's really hard to make like a full living in just comics.

You know, it really is like, it's not, it's a really hard field and it's in a corrective period now after years of sort of IP, I think IP overinflation and all that kind of stuff. And companies sort of chasing that. But the point I'm trying to make is that my generation coming in never. I never thought I'd make a living doing it. I always had another job. Until I was three or four years in Batman, I taught pretty full time colleges and stuff.

And I only gave it up because my wife was going back to work. And so the point is, I always tried to keep it so that I could always say to them, well, then I quit. If you're really going to step on something you said I could do and now you're afraid of it and it was approved. then I'm gonna have that leverage to be able to sincerely be like I quit. And there were twice I actually did. And I was like, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm really out, like I'm done.

Can I ask where out in the run this was? Because I know you said in other interviews, it was you, Jonathan and Greg basically locked arms and said, if you do this, we're all done. There were three times I think overall with me and DC. There was once, yeah, with me and Greg and Jonathan when they tried to make us. changed the name and they wanted us to, they got scared of metal right at the end when it was about to come out.

They just didn't know if it would sell and they were afraid that it was like, it was very, it was a very fraught moment if you remember it 2016. And they thought initially before it came out, people would want something darker and more, more political. And my mindset was like, they want the opposite of that, but this is actually a story about this moment. It's about.

Seeing through the anger and the division to collect collectivism and that, and that's what metal was sort of about, was sort of seeing all, being afraid of all the worst versions of yourself, tempted by them and then saying, I'm gonna find the better one, all the evil Batman and so on. So they really got scared and were like, we want you to break it into two parts and then split it over a year. They basically wanted to destroy it. They were like.

put three issues of it over here and then like another three issues of it in a year or six months or whatever. And I was like, what does that mean? Like, what is that? And they were like, it'll be two things. It'll be like DC Dark Nights and then it'll be like DC Metal down the line. Like when we get there, like they were never going to do it. So it was like this kind of like they had taken us into a room to like execute us essentially. And so I was like, I don't know what to do.

And Greg was really funny. Greg was like, well, we quit. And I was like, well, how do you want to quit? And he was like, just don't respond to anything they say. He's going to kill me for like giving away his secrets, but because he's like, don't ever come. I my my like, but my art of war. But anyway, I was like, I cannot respond to them. Like, what if Jim Lee calls or something? He's like, no contact, no, just silence. And I was like, my God, what am I doing?

But like we really did, we were all really radio silent and they eventually came around and were like, no, you can do this one thing. And then I love how that worked. I don't know. I couldn't believe it worked, but then they were really happy. And then they, they were very kind and celebratory and they all had like the metal guitars and all that at the party. And it was a lot of fun. And once it went through, everyone was relieved.

And I understand why they're afraid, but I think that's kind of the hard, that's a lot of the hard stuff, you know, is they're not just paper companies anymore. They have these strange masters that sometimes they know and understand and sometimes they don't. And so in the early years of that, I think it was very angering because there was a kind of, why are you, why isn't this just comics? Why do you care about like who's above you or what promotion you can get into TV or animation?

Why do you care? Like this is what we came here for. And as I'm older and kind of see people's life trajectories, I understand why that was the way it was. but I still feel the same way, you know? I still feel like, don't do that. But at that time, I was much more like, rah rah rah, like, you know, like what? Anyway, the point is simply like, from Detective Comics to now, despite or because of and in spite of all of the kind of volatility in comics, it's always been that way.

You always approach it, I would argue for any creator out there, approach it like you could quit. And I know if you can't, I - then don't obviously, but I would always try and create something for a trap door for yourself. Have another job, honestly. Because the thing is, if they come in and they tell you to do something, I'll tell you this, sorry, I feel like you asked one question. No, I love it, keep it going.

I sometimes, I had friends, I remember, I'll tell you, I had one editor, I had this big fight with them about court of owls. It was the first time I ever had a fight with them. We were a few issues in and hadn't come out yet. We were a few issues into production. And I was terrified out of my mind, man, because I was like, this is gonna be Batman number one. And I thought I was nobody. And why did they do this to me or give this to me? I have no idea. I was just so scared.

It was like, I've said it many times, but it's like getting plucked out of Little League and then pitching in the World Series. And it's always your dream. But you're like, I just wanted all those years in between to get good enough for it. But when they offer it to you, you can't be like, no. You know what I mean? When they're like, do you want to do Batman? What if I said no? So I was like, yes. But then you're terrified because you're not good enough in your head.

But they, a few issues in, I got this call from them and they were like, well, listen, we have some, we have some news. We decided you can't call it quarter vowels. And I was like, what do you mean you can't? What do you want me to call it? Like parliament about what? And they're like, no, no, no. We want you to use bats. And I was like, what do you mean bats? And they're like, just make it bats instead of owls. And I was like, it can't be bats.

And they're like, yeah, Ken. or make it something else. What about like just something else? And I was like, why do you, what's the problem? And they were like, well, you can't, you just can't. Like, I don't know, it's Warner Brothers says you can't. I'm like, well, who's Warner Brothers? Like, who are you talking about? Which brother do I need to talk to right now? We're still in New York. So I was like, who, what boss is like out looking over your shoulder?

I knew they were moving, but it was like, what? And so they were like, as before they were moving actually. So I didn't even know what they were talking about. They were like, Warner Brothers is our new boss and they say you can't do it. And I was like, well, I don't understand. And they were like, also, you can't use James Jr. You can't use Thomas Wayne Jr. We want you to make it his like uncle or I don't know. And I was like, well, that ruins the story.

And you've already approved it and we're already in it. And they were like, no, no, you just can't do it. And I was like, but can I talk to you about it at least? Can I make a case? And they were like, fine, you can make a case. So they scheduled a time the next day and then no one called me. And there was like no one on, it was before Zoom. There was like nobody called. And so I was like, what the fuck, you know? And then they call, sorry, we forgot. Tomorrow you can do it.

This is Thursday. So I was like, okay. All right, so Thursday, nobody called me again. They were just like, I don't know if they were messing with me or what. And so Friday, I called them and I'm like, what is happening? Like you guys said that I could talk to you and they're like, yeah, we talked to them again, Warner Brothers, and they just said you can't do it. So, you know, have a nice weekend. And I was like, what? Have a nice day, I guess. my God, dude.

So I've never, I like, I was like, no, I'm coming in to talk to you. So I drove into the city from my house. I'm like a couple hours out of the city, drove in and I was deliberately like, looked like I had, I was in my like pajama, like sweatpants and my glasses and my, I was like, looked like a lunatic. I like came in and I was like, I'm having this meeting with you and explaining to you why, like my case, even if you reject it. And so they were really funny. They were like, you know what?

you can have it." And I was like, well, what about Warner Brothers and all this stuff? And they were like, it's fine. And I realized there was no Warner Brothers. But I was like, what was the problem? Like, why did you say that? And they were like, we were trying to protect you because we were worried that Owls was too much like Owlman. And I'm like, OK, but why don't you just say that?

And anyway, the point is the next day, one of the editors, I don't want to throw too much shade, but one of the editors was like, it's a real shame that you did that, you know? And I was like, why? He was at a shame. And he was like, well, because, you know, we really, people really liked when you came into the office before that.

You're a really liked writer, but like, you know, you do those things and like, people just don't really want you in the office because they think you're, I don't know, an asshole or something. And I remember being like really horrified by this and being like, my God, like I have totally screwed myself. And then like kind of walking around and being like the city after this in the block and being like, you know what?

Honestly, I don't care because we got the story that we wanted and they were the ones being assholes about it. And I'm not saying drive into the company and be a crazy person. But what I realized at that moment was that it mattered. It didn't matter as long as everybody is nice to each other. I'm not saying being mean. I'm not saying be rotten or yell or any of that inappropriate stuff. But I'm saying stick up for the things you believe in.

And if they don't like you because you're causing trouble by that. then I don't see a problem with that, honestly. And so it was a real turning point for me where I was just like, you know what? I don't care if you like having me in the office or you don't, like I'll always be nice to you and this, but I'm always also going to stick up for the things that I think are right. And especially if you approve them and then like we're doing them and you can't just like turn around.

I know you can, but you shouldn't turn around in the last minute and be like, no, you can't call it the court of birds or the court of bird canaries or something like that. And like, And by the way, guess what? I'm secretly your great uncle, Bruce. What's that about? Anyway, the times that we almost quit were the metal rebirth.

When rebirth started, I had an issue with stuff where I came off Batman and then there were a couple of books that, the thing that wound up being All -Star, which I adored and love working on, was initially gonna be sort of a different series. And they wanted me to do it and then they wanted me to do something else. And so they told me, We are not going to let you do that unless you do this too. And I was like, I don't want to do both those things.

And they were like, well, we'll only get, let you create this if you do this. And I was like, well, then I quit, you know, and that was very tense. And then there was one time in 20th on death metal that I quit when it was like, it was at the very end when everything was going really, going really haywire. Again, these, these companies sometimes go through like a lot of revolution, like very quickly. And right now it's, I think it's just.

you know, something to be aware of is like, people go out there and they yell about comics for all kinds of reasons about why is this happening? Why is that happening? And they'll drag things into a culture war. They'll drag things into, and sometimes literally what's happening is literally like the fact that people are just trying to figure out what is wanted by people above them. And that what that means a lot of the time is creating things that sometimes take big risks in awesome ways.

Sometimes are really safe in other ways that can be good or bad. Sometimes are. And you see that happen now and again. And I just mean, there's a lot of the time, like what's happening internally is a mystery to people outside. And, you know, you can, you can guess whatever you want. Like, well, it's because this creator hated this and you have no idea. Like a lot of the time it's like, It's a book that they've wanted to make for three years and they finally get the chance to do it. Here it is.

And you think it's something that just appeared and it's like a brand new thing, but it's actually something that's been this person's pet project that they've wanted to do and everybody's supportive of, but couldn't come out until now because of the line. And so there's all kinds of weird stuff that happens. You know what I mean? Internally in that way. And, and, and people just don't know.

And that was that 2020 was like, again, was the last time I really was like, I right before I actually walked away was like the worst because it was just like, everybody was afraid of the firings that were coming and everybody was trying to do things that were either, I think, out of real passion to do their last good thing or anger. It was just all over the place. And so to do an event in that environment was really tough because it was just. You know, it requires coordination.

And when there's like everybody in their own silo, it's really hard and not creators and not even editors, just sort of bosses, you know, when bosses are all trying to figure out what to do and sometimes what to do to save employees, what to all kinds of stuff. It's just like, so anyway, sorry, I'm like on the couch and the therapist thing. Now I feel like going on about stuff that like you did not ask about you asked like a pretty easy question. I'm not living the woods, man.

I don't talk to anybody. So if you, If you get me going, I'll like talk about anything forever. Making note now, keep asking questions to get Scott go on in a tirade. Perfect. Got it. All right. Making notes. You know, and it's funny because my next question dealt with this idea that I've heard you talk about a bunch and other conversations about how you said you were kind of somewhat hot headed, you know, in the beginning of your career.

And that always fascinated me because I've only ever known you, you know, as a longtime fan and your work as just being like this very kind of warm, passive person. And it just. blew my mind that you would even self admit that you were kind of this, you know, somewhat of an angry person there in the, you know, in the beginning of your career, especially at DC, but you going through all of that just now without me even prompting you kind of illuminates all of where that all came from.

Cause all I've ever heard you talk about before was that you just, you, you had certain disagreements and certain arguments with DC or whomever the, the powers that be, but it wasn't until now that when you explain all of that, the way you had, now it makes sense and I get it and I don't blame you one bit. Well, thanks.

I mean, I'll tell you the part I blame me for and then the part that I don't like the part that I just told you about is like the part that I don't blame me for, which is there are actual times that I think are important to speak up. And I certainly overdid it at times and like gotten to big arguments with people. But I never I feel good about the fact that I I don't think really that I ever like only once that I have an editor where I felt like I got angry.

someone who was my friend and editor and we've since like really worked it out and that stuff. But it was always yelling up, like getting angry at the people above you, you know, in some ways. So it was, you know, I stand by that. But not that that's great. But the part that I do think is I was bad about was like, there was definitely a self destructive streak those first years for me where. I think there was a big part of me that like wanted to get fired too.

Like the things I stuck up for, I stuck up for, I still would stick up for. But there are times where I really went overboard. I can think about where I like driving in and doing that. You know what I mean? And did it get us what we wanted? It did. But like, I don't know that that was too much. And there are times where it was too much. There was a time where you might've heard me tell, I've told this story a couple of times. I don't know.

When I was at New York, right when they were in 2012 or 2013. So it was this first couple years where there was this like rocket ship ride for me on Batman that made me uncomfortable because it was just so much, man. It was so much spotlight and so much pressure and you had to keep the book above 100 ,000 like every month. And I remember this was sort of the end of that period, but. I was always kind of looking to argue with my bosses or like, you know, that stuff.

I feel like also, and anything they did that was wrong. And they, I mean, they did some stuff that was like, forgivably wrong. And then some stuff like that, you know, they really shouldn't have done. But at New York that year, I remember getting really angry at the DC party at Dan. And he had promised me something on Superman Unchained. And then he kind of backed out of it.

and he wasn't gonna tell me and then I found out and so I was like angry at him and I was talking to him and I was like, they had drinks that were named after all the books and I was on all these books like Swamp Thing and this and that and I was definitely like, I think a little over my limit and I was like, you know something else? Like, I don't understand, why do you have to lie about stuff and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I was like saying these things and it's like a company party, you know? And so it's inappropriate, you don't talk to your boss that way, especially in public. And it was wrong and at the time I didn't think so but I was like, you know, Well, I'm gonna stick up for myself and that's who I am and yada yada. And then I left the party in kind of a huff. And then I went to the Marvel party on 53rd street, 57th street or whatever at McHale's.

And by the time I got there, it's like 10 blocks away from where the DC party is. Everybody at that party was like, did you just get into like a physical fight with Dan DiDio? Cause that's what everybody is talking about. That's the rumor right now. And so I was like, no, of course not. And it was actually Tom Breivort. who I didn't know well, you know, I don't know well, but like we have the same comic store. So I knew him before I broke into comics.

Who called me the next day and was like, listen, like, I should be like rooting for you to like flame out because we're at competing companies, but you have a chance to like really have a career and you're blowing it by acting the way you are. And it completely like ice watered me where I was like, yeah, and I'll always be grateful to him for that. And that was, you know, 10 years ago or whatever.

It just got me like, you know what, straighten out in terms of like, yes, you can be angry and you can stick up for things, but you've got to get rid of this like, please fire me because I'm so stressed all the time to it as well, I think, which was, you know, was unhealthy. And then, you know, it went away and I feel like, you know, the last number of years, even when it was, even when I quit when it was like 2020 and that stuff, like, or that stuff, it was, it never got like that.

It was never, it was more just like. trying to be reasonable and being like, this is really not working and this is crazy or whatever. I feel like I've mellowed out. I've done my work and I'm like, I hope. It's so wild to think back on that new 52 Batman run and think where I was and what I was doing when I was picking up that book every month and thinking, and I'll get into it here in just a bit.

I know I keep teasing this really unimportant part of our conversation, but like, where I was at that time in my love of comics to think that you were like pulling your hair out, trying to get shit done, you and Greg together. And you're like fighting with Dan to do parties to get it, get things that you want. It's just, it's, it's interesting. It just, I would have never dawned on me because I was young. I was in my early twenties when this book was coming out.

So it's just, it's just interesting. I don't know. It's, it's interesting to hear this perspective now way after the fact. You know, part of it is like, it's, it's really hard to, I still love teaching and I do it, you know, like I said earlier through that.

Substack stuff, but it's really hard because I don't know that my path was the one that I'd like recommend to people in a lot of ways like to try and do the stuff I did or be that way but what I would say again is like I I believe in trying to have another job so that you can be able to be like I I don't feel comfortable doing this and I'd rather walk away than do that because the other thing I'd say is that the There are a lot of creators that I remember from that period who we were

coming up together and they were angry at me or they would say things to me like, you're giving all of us a bad name by, you should just do what the editors say to do and then next time you'll get what you want. And I can think of at least five or six people from that period that really had that idea and I don't blame that or say that that's terrible or wrong. But I always worried that like the problem with that mentality is like, if you say, okay, I'll do what you want this time.

And then you do a book that you're not happy with, that book will show, it'll come out and then people will not respond to it. And that will hurt you and your cred with fans. And then yes, the editors might wanna work with you again because you were easy, but then you do it again. And then fans don't really like you and then, or not like you, but you know what I mean? Like they're not. responsive to the book and then the sales go down and then eventually editors aren't gonna work with you.

But if you build up a relationship with the fans, and Greg always said that, he was like, we're employed by DC but we work for the fans. If you build up a relationship where they know you're gonna fight to put your best stuff out there, even if they don't like it, like there's still I think a level of engagement and excitement and respect that's kind of like, look, I'm not gonna do what you want always.

but I'm gonna give you the thing that I think is the best thing I can put out on the stands and at the expense of my own relationships and health and so on. So I hope you enjoy it. And I think that feels like maybe the best advice I can give is sort of try to protect your creative vision because don't write for anybody else but yourself, honestly. And don't think that editors, not that they're wonderful. I love my editors.

They're great, but it's not their job to protect you either meaning like if you do stuff that they suggest that you don't agree with and You're the writer and then the book doesn't do well. They don't have any obligation to keep you on it. If it's not selling Why would they I mean? Yes, they might like working with you because you were easy But you know, they're not gonna be like hey, I was wrong about that. You should stay on the book You're gonna be like the sales are down You're out.

So the point is like you've got to you've got to really have a clear vision of what you're doing and just be maniacal about it on some level and have the team buy into it, buy into it with them collaboratively. And your editor can be your biggest proponent. They are for me. I mean, Marie, who's now, thank God, like now the editor in chief at DC was such a, she was my editor on, she fought for everything going through, you know what I mean?

Doyle before that and, you know, Martz did that too, times. Like there was a lot, I had a lot of really good editors too that just like. help push through. So I'm not trying to throw editors down. It's more just like, you've got to be able to be like, know when it's time to be like, I, if I make these changes, I'm going to be responsible for something that really I'm not proud of. And I, I can't do it.

Yeah. You know, well, it's funny because this is like the third conversation in the last, you know, in 2024, where we've talked to a creator who's worked for DC and has had some kind of. Whore story with Dan to do, but that's no shade on Dan. We all, I think we all agree that Dan's an awesome dude.

It's just, you know, those, those early days and then in the new 52 and you know, that timeframe, which is funny because when I remember very vividly being in that, you know, in the readership of the new 52 and there were certain titles like, you know, your quarter vows and the Jim Lee's justice league, Jeff Johns and Jim Lee on, on justice league and like Aquaman and there were like tent pole properties that people really liked.

But like people are kind of sour on it overall, but looking back on it now, like you said, the edges of them had kind of sanded off and people look back on new 52 like very fondly now. It's so interesting, you know, to look back on it and have lived it, having lived it. Well, what I lived was like, I think, I think one of the things that's really hard to understand if you're outside of it is again, like the tensions that were good and bad at play all those years.

And it's like when you grow up in a neighborhood and you're like, that neighborhood with those buildings, right. But it's not the buildings, it's like the people that live in them that make the neighborhood. And the neighborhood is only there while you all are there and then it's gone. It's like this vision that's disappeared. For good or bad, it's those people living in that space. The space is just bricks, right?

So like DC was Dan DeDio who was very, very adamant about getting people's attention, making sure that we took risks, we're always trying to be daring. and he would push things to an extreme that often was way beyond what people were comfortable with.

For creators who were comfortable with whatever, but then you had like Jeff Johns who was extremely good at sort of having the opposite vision, which a lot of the time was about anticipating what fans wanted and giving them something that harkened back to the Silver Age, but did it in a new way. And so it was more of a kind of, more of a legacy sort of.

writer that way, but always brought something new, but it was about kind of these opposite poles, like blowing it up to make something insanely new or trying to sort of take the old and polish it in a way that would make it. And so Dan would pull this way and Jeff would pull this way. And sometimes it came together really well and would make something, especially in the years before I got there. I think it worked best with like, you know, infinite crisis and 52 and a lot of that stuff.

And by the time New 52 happened, they were all co -CEOs and stuff, like publishers and that. And that's where I think it started to get maybe more, more push and pull. And that was the environment like I walked into, which was more like you had one side that was, was very much about kind of trying to, you know, forget what came, not forget what came before, but like focus on the new.

And then you had somebody else that was very much about, there's still a lot to kind of restore and use as material to go forward with. And it was a crazy era because it was like this. It was like new 52 rebirth doomsday. Like it was like this. And so you were just trying to like, sometimes you were just like, I just try to, you know, like do the stories in between. And again, none of that shade on either of those people or any of the stuff there.

I mean, I have my feelings and I have my stuff about moments and all of that, but we're all fine. Like we're all friends and that stuff now. And that there were certainly like fights and blowups and that stuff. But like a lot of it, again, I think with hindsight, like looking back as more of a kind of like grandfathered in at this point, like to DC Comics history as someone who was there a long time. I think it's more like. You understand the bigger picture.

I can understand sort of a lot of the pressures a lot of people were under and the expectations that I didn't as somebody who was like in New York writing comics while they were in LA dealing with all the Warner Brothers stuff. So, you know, I think it's more like fascinating for me to look back and be like, God, I can't believe I had no idea that was happening or, you know, this Jeff was under pressure from this for the toys of the movies and Dan was under pressure for this, for this.

And I was just like, I just want to write this. Fucking story, just let me write the story, man. Like, that's it. So I was always just like, you know, comics this, that. I don't have any ambitions really for that stuff. I mean, I love doing the stuff that I'm doing now, animation, which is like, I love animation so much and so fun. But I don't have big ambitions to like move into film and TV and any large way, live action stuff or any of that really.

Sure. Well, I want to kind of pick your brain a little bit here because my co -host and best friend, Aaron, who isn't here with us today, he actually had a question for you about DC's Dark Knight's Metal. And this will kind of conclude our conversation about DC kind of encompassing. He absolutely he adores your and Greg's dark corner of the multiverse.

You know, the Batman who laughs and the Grim Knight and all that craziness that very much play that all plays into what he loves about the DC universe. And it's been almost seven years since Dark Days of the Forge were released and began that insane event. and knowing how successful it was now and getting to partner with Greg once again and tell that bad -ass story.

How does it feel reflecting on, and we've kind of talked about a little bit here thus far, but how does it feel reflecting on that series now in 2024? it feels great, man. I still have like the, they gave me a guitar. It's like right over here. metal. my gosh. Like it's kind of a microcosm of everything. Like a DC for me is, is what it really was because at that point, like, I had sort of, been doing my own thing a bit with All -Star Batman and then, you know, with Justice League.

And I remember being like, yeah, no, it was Justice League came after Metal. So it was Metal itself. The first Metal was, I was sort of off to the side. And I remember being like, I have this idea, first I called Greg and I remember being like, have this idea for this crazy thing. Do you have like 20 minutes for me to like pitch you this story? And he was like, all right, go. It's going to be called Metal. And he's like, I'm in. I was like, you know.

I had this whole PowerPoint of like, it's a Joker, Dragon, and this, and then he was funny though. He was like, I'm in, and he was serious. And so the thing with DC with it was like, I went there and I was like, look, like, I know this isn't the typical event that you're doing. And it feels like, I know we lean dark and you want to do a dark event, but I really feel like there's just energy in the idea of embracing the cosmic lunacy of what, I've been reading all these events.

I had been, just for fun, I had been reading like, the original crisis, but also like Cosmic Odyssey and all these different things like, you know, secret wars and, and just, just feeling like, you know what, like at this moment when things were so dark politically, I mean, everybody, it was 2016. So it was just like the beginning of the period we're living in now where it's just this constant, you know, anger and division. but it was really startling.

It was kind of like, I think that what we want to remind people of is comics is a place we go to find our best selves and just go nuts. And it's also Kirby's 100th birthday. Let's just embrace like that and do that. And you know, they were just like, no, it has to be called dark something. And I was like, what about just metal? And it looked, the biggest fight was like, finally they agreed to Dark Knight's metal. And then because I was like, and there's evil Batman in it.

And that's what sold them. And they're like, okay, fine. And a Batman -centric event, they were like, okay, if it's you and Greg, it's Batman, fine. But like I told you, one of the biggest fights we ever had with them was like, they approved it. And then they were like, actually, no, we think that it's out of tone, out of tone with the moment, and it's too light. And I was like, it's not light. There's like evil Batman in the Batman who laughs, but they wanted something that was more.

I don't know if it was because Secret Empire was coming from Marvel or what, but there was like a feeling of wanting to be dark. And I was like, it's dark. It has a dark heart, but it's like candy coated and all this crazy fun. But ultimately it has a good, bright message, but it's gonna get really dark. And that's when we really banded together. And then they finally approved it. And I still remember when we went there and they showed us the logo and it was so awesome. It was this metal logo.

And I was like, that's it. And then the last fight we had was Greg drew that cover that I love where it was like the justice league forming this, you know, and they hated it. They hated it. my God. They took us out to breakfast at San Diego to tell us they were not going to use it kind of thing. And could we make it a variant? And he, it was like, I told, I was like, do not do this. Like, don't say this to him. Don't do it. You know, like you, you it's beautiful. Use it.

It's the best thing ever. And so they finally came around. Jim was the one that really pushed to let it come around and they didn't get as far. But Micro Cause of Being cut to the party that San Diego and Metal, I don't remember when it started coming out, but it was out by the time we were there, that San Diego.

And it was there, they were bringing out inflatable guitar, everything was metal themed, everything was, and it was the best time where it was like, you know what, we all... I get where you guys are coming from. I know why you were upset or worried about it. You had legitimate fears. Like we all fought and now here we're all gonna party and it was all fine. And you supported us in the end and you supported us. They went out hard for it and they were really good about it.

So that was, it kind of like represented everything about DC to me where it was like the whole experience in a nutshell, all of the kind of bad and good and. all in one place and Death Metal was similar. It was just Death Metal had a more, sort of a more personal message for me, but also happened at a time when DC was really going through a lot.

And so it was harder to like steer that ship, you know, where it was sort of like, actually we need you to do, at one point they wanted us to do two months of tie -ins, which I was like, that's way too much. And they were like, no, no, no, no, you're gonna take over the line. and you just do, we need you to do it. You're gonna do like 64 books. And I was like, 64 comics you want us to do. And they're like, yes.

And they flew out here to my house, and we made a big whiteboard and there were amazing shit on it. It was like Sergeant Rock and the thing. And it was like Aquaman and the, I mean, it was really cool. It was all like metal out and it was like, beast mode. And it was like, it was like swamp rock and it was all kinds of crazy shit. It was gonna be fun. They're all like one shots, you know, and two issue things.

And then they were like, actually, we need you to totally cut that and just do like 10 issues. We don't have the time before we might all have to, it was like that. So you would like, you just never knew what was coming. You were always in a defensive crouch, but again, it wasn't on any, it was just more the climate. So anyway, yeah. And that was metal. I love metal. I'm so proud of it. It makes me so happy to see those designs. I adore it.

And I read it now and I read death metal and I'm, I love them, but I also can't believe they let us do it. Jesus, really got away with this. Like, I can't believe they let us make Batman like dead and the Lord of the Dead and kill everybody. And what the fuck? Like they really they gave us a lot of leash. Can we set the record straight really quick? I just I have to ask this came to mind while you were talking about this. What's the first appearance of the Batman who laughs?

Is it the Teen Titans book or is it the the Batman who laughs tie in? Well, it came out on the same day. And I think I mean, the thing I'd say is like I would always pick the one that Greg drew. Sure. I'm going to pick metal. OK. to, but they they they're concurrent. So we always sign them both. Greg signs the other one, too.

So, OK, I was just curious because I remember I worked at a comic shop when Dark Knight's Metal was coming out and that Teen Titans book blew up like people wanted that book so badly. And of course, it was a tie in. It was a random issue. I think of you have Teen Titans. So it was totally random. Yeah. It was just funny that people were freaking out about it. But I want to kind of switch gears a little bit and talk about talk about horror.

just horror in general, because you're obviously known for horror. Like that's kind of your, that's your bag, right? And you know, you've already created some all timers, right? Like witches with jock, you've got American vampire with Stephen King and Raphael Apokurke, the wake with Sean Gordon Murphy. And I want to share some with you.

I read a study from a sin that says as humans, our obsession with horror stems from a combination of a multitude of chemicals in our bodies that release while experiencing fear, our curiosity with the finality of death. and the moments that lead to it. And sort of like our primal accomplishment of embracing fear and the inherent possibility of death and conquering that while consuming horror entertainment, kind of like over -encompassing.

That's a long -winded way of saying endorphins plus tricking ourselves that fear is real, right? So as someone who clearly has a true affection for the genre, what are some of the elements of horror that keep you so interested in exploring it? Well, I think like, that's a great question. I mean, I think what it is for me is like, I've always dealt with anxiety and depression at times.

I've gotten better about it as I've gotten older, but when I was younger, I really struggled, especially with anxiety. I would have these fears that I just could not get out of my head. Just cycle all night, cycle panic attacks, cycle, my parents are gonna die, or what if this happens, or that happens, or there's a nuclear attack, it was the 80s, whatever, and all these kind of things.

And what horror I started to discover, I've said it before, but there was a video store where I grew up in New York City that wouldn't rent R -rated movies to kids, but they would deliver them to your house if you rented them. So you could go there, but you could order it, and they would leave it outside your door. And so it was this neighborhood secret, the video stop on 26th Street and 3rd Avenue. It's no longer there. But we would rent all of these horror movies, like Sleepaway Camp.

It was the golden age of B -horror movies, too, in the 80s. But what I started to realize over time was that, And it really happened with Night of the Living Dead. Night of the Living Dead is like my favorite horror movie. And it happened because I rented it when my friends were coming over and I was like, Night of the Living Dead, that sounds cool. And because it was being delivered, I didn't have an image. I just had a list of movies and this is pre -internet.

So I didn't know what it was, but it sounded cool. And it had a star, which meant they liked it. So I was like, Night of the Living Dead. And so it came and it was black and white. And I was like, my God, this movie, what the fuck? Like, this is going to be terrible. And I watched it and I remember watching it and... and just being angry at it, like not liking it. And I didn't know why, but it kept me up.

It was the first horror movie that really gave me like nightmares, like nightmares about all the zombie apocalypse. And I didn't understand until years later why, but what I came to understand both about that movie and about horror's function like in my life is that it gives me a place to explore the things that I'm most afraid of in a safe space where I can go there when I'm in control of it. and write about these things that I'm terrified of.

And it gives me a sense of power over them to be able to go in there and come out of it. And I think horror movies do that for me too, you know, when I'm enjoying them or horror stories. It allows us to kind of delve into the things that really keep us up at night and in life we can't deal with to some degree, like death, like you said, and experience them in a controlled setting and then come out with some kind of new appreciation for things in some way.

And Night of the Living Dead, it really was like, it made me realize like, it was the first time when horror is done well, I understood that like, it's kind of this amazing, pure form of conflict where you're looking at your conflict is like you dealing with the things, right? You're afraid of, or that you're angry at, or, and that's what a monster is when it's done well, is like whatever reflection of us or extension of your fear, you could give feet to and teeth to and have it walk around.

So like Night of the Living Dead is like all the characters you think are gonna live die, right? Like the spoiler, but it's like 70 years old or whatever, 60 years old. But it's like the young couple or the hero Ben or any of them, like they all Barbara. And you'll find it in the work, right? So I kind of work through themes at different times for better or worse. So if you look at like 2012, 2013, we had just had another kid. we had our second kid and my career was like taking off.

And I wrote those books in like 2011, 20, whatever before he was born or he was, you know, Emmett. And I was just terrified of being a dad again, thinking like, well, I'm gonna be worse this time around because I have a career I never thought I'd have, I'm too selfish for it, do I even want another kid? All of that. And so Death of the Family is like a pure extension of that stuff. and which is a horror Batman story and witches is an absolute extension of that same fear.

So like you can see the things I'm afraid of work through when I'm doing horror at a certain moment. Like now too, you know, white boat and has similar themes to a couple other things I'm working on that I can't talk about, but a dungeon has similar themes to white boat and that stuff where there it's working through certain fears, you know, so horror gives me that way in. Some people will ask me, why do you love horror?

Cause I love horror, you know, a lot, like in movies, entertainment, comics, all of it. And I thought about it quite a bit. And I think what I've come to the realization of is that it offers a feeling that I don't feel very often, you know, as a, I'm like, I'm six foot. I live in the Midwest. Like I'm not, I don't experience fear very often. And I saw hereditary when it first came out and that, that was like the greatest. like euphoric fear like it was haunting.

It was the imagery just like burned into my brain like a cigarette burn and I've just been like chasing that feeling ever since you know and I get that sometimes like for instance when I read witches for the first time there. I remember there the the kind of the opening with the mother in the in the tree. You know it was it's it's pretty visceral and it's the opening scene of the cartoon. Yes, yeah, nothing changed. Just there's only more blood in the cartoon. So you'll believe.

But yeah, I just, I find it so fascinating that the kind of our, our relationship with horror and also our, you know, what I just said, fat, our fascination with horror and how, you know, again, you're, I think you're one of the forefront horror writers in comics today. And it's, we're going to get into white boat here in just a moment, but yeah, I just wanted to pick your brain on why you thought like, where, where did that fascination truly originate at? I think it's that.

I mean, I think it's, I'm a kid. I was a kid that really worried all the time. And you know, when you have anxiety or you're like, again, for you, anyone out there that has it, like for me, everyone experiences it differently, but like, it can be pretty frightening because like, it feels like you have a fear and then that fear will not get out of your head.

And every time you think of it, if you don't treat it or you don't kind of figure out ways of making yourself kind of break that cycle by like being like, I'm not going to think about that. I'm not going to call my friend and ask if that fear is rational. I'm going to go for a walk. If you can't break that, what happens, it gets worse. And when it gets worse, your body starts reacting as though it's actually a real fear.

So at its worst, it'll be like, let's say I have a fear that like my kids are gonna die or something like that. There's no reason to be afraid of that, but I'll think it like, well, what if they do? And my body will act as though they are. Like I feel absolute panic, like I'm having a heart attack and your sweat and you like. your heart goes and it's terrible and it takes a minute for it to go away.

And then you're finally calm and then five minutes later you have the same thought and it happens all over again and it just exhausts you until you're like... And so I think for me, what I realized was that horror was the place where I could watch a movie or read a book. I remember reading Stephen King. I mean, I started reading Stephen King really early.

And all of these things I was afraid of, I could experience, like in Pet Sematary or in The Stand, all those things was like, you know, they were there and I could read them at my own pace and I could deal with them. And so horror, I understood it at a certain point, and that's when the same thing with The Night of the Living Dead, I was probably 10, 11.

In that area is where I started to really realize this is where I feel at home as a. as a reader, as a viewer, and then as a writer, because it gives me a place to really dive right in with no bullshit into the stuff that I'm most afraid of, you know? And that's what writing is for. Ultimately, for me, that's why I started writing in the first place was like, I'm afraid of this.

Are you or I really wish I was brave or I hope I'd like to write about somebody who is brave, such as Batman or whoever in the face of this thing I'm afraid of. to make me braver, I hope you respond to that too. So it's reaching out across that to be like, does this thing scare you too? Or do you feel the way I feel? And so there's that aspect to it where horror has always been that for me. I know it's weird because it's also like slashers and what have you.

But when it's done right, I think it's such a powerful genre. And I think it's being done well in all across the cultural landscape right now in film and books and. comic books and in TV. And I think it's because a lot of there's a lot of cultural anxiety. And so there's, you know, those a 24 films, man. It's just like the dread just permeates the screen. It's the seventies kind of almost like level terror throughout. It just never goes away. That tension.

Yeah. Well, let's get into your latest project, which is a horror book. Yeah. And we got white boat over at Distillery for which you are a founding member of. And its first issue is released on March 27th. This conversation will have already come or will come out later after the release of, of white boat.

Yeah. They're going to slide the date cause we're making a record with it and all this stuff, but it's going to push back a little further, I think, but we're really happy with how it's coming out. I got to read a preview of it and I really love this. I think it was like the first like 12 pages of it and it's, it's incredible. thanks. You know, of course you're collaborating once again with Francisco, Frank Avila, and is this set the story sets out to tell, and this is a quote from Francesco.

A story that balances claustrophobic psychological terror with global conspiracy. I've seen you also call it your most ambitious and expansive deep dive into horror yet. Can you elaborate on that just a little bit? Just to say it again without spoilers? Yeah, I mean, we always kind of sell it, you know, I mean, in some ways, like what it really is to me is it's Francesco and I share this very deep love of classic horror.

If you see his office ever, if you zoom with him, it's like you think you're in like a movie museum. for like Creature from the Black Lagoon and he's got everything. And I remember like when the pandemic started, we had a thing where we were both talking about rewatching classic horror movies. And we came up with this idea where we were like, well, what if we start remaking classic horror movies, but not really remaking them.

What if we made our own versions of classic horror movies where they weren't necessarily the old movie, but it was like in the spirit of that kind of monster thing where you're either, it had tropes from those things and was our version. So. We were like, okay, well, what if we did one about a monster nobody has ever heard of? And then we made it about classic movies and that was Night of the Ghoul, which is easily one of the books I'm like happiest with in my whole career. I love that book.

Yeah, it's over at 20th century. Now I'm really excited about it. With this one, we've had, let's keep going. Like, let's do another one. We had so much fun on Night of the Ghoul. What if we do something that's about, what are you afraid of? And it was like, let's do something that's about like all the seafaring horror lore. You know, about like, the Kraken and mermaids love crafty and stuff.

And is there something, a story we could tell about like you're carried out to sea or you go out to sea and you find yourself on an isolated island where you learn the secret of all these monsters and this stuff. And I was like, it's kind of like the Island of Dr. Moreau. And he was like, yes, let's do something like the Island of Dr. Moreau. We both love that story. And so it became this thing where it was like if the Island of Dr. Moreau was sort of the very, almost like the seed.

But do it in a way now where there's no Dr. Moreau, there's no single person. It's more about an island that could actually exist these days where these, I'm giving too much away, but these incredibly wealthy people that live outside of national boundaries have established kind of a community to try out different sort of scientific advances that will help the human race go forward, not evolve animals or anything like that.

But. they're also responsible for a lot of crazy seafaring horror over the years. And so it's about a guy who winds up being invited without his knowledge to this island for reasons that are way beyond his comprehension and the first issue. But it sort of blends Lovecraftian horror with, like he said, conspiracy theories and kind of global anxieties also. So it's really out there, but I mean, I think it's one of our best.

It's definitely us two, one of our best collaborations, but I think it's one of my best projects that I've been a part of and I'm really grateful. I mean, Distillery is so much fun. I love that company. I mean, Chip and David who run it, we're at Comixology, they gave me that lifeline when I left DC and I was like, hey, I wanna do all these creator -owned books and I was gonna set maybe a couple up an image and then a couple up a C about Dark Horse. I hadn't talked to them yet, maybe this.

and figure out a way to stagger them so I could pay for them. Cause I didn't know how to pay for all of them or any of that. And then all of a sudden they were like, well, Comixology, you know, we'll, we'll do them with you and they'll come out. And the first they were like, we'll do them with you. And I was like, well, they need to be out in print. And they were like, well, we're working on a deal with Dark Horse.

And I was like, why I won't do it unless like it comes out in print at Dark Horse. And they were very nice. They hadn't done single issue at that point. So it was like, all right, well, we'll do single issue. I said, you know, I wanted it to be direct market, but those two guys were always creative. crater forward when we were there. And they honestly wanted to do things that help comics. I mean, I think at that time or before that, not even really at that time, there wasn't any real blowback.

But before that, I think people were like, digital is different than print. It is. But like one of my biggest and strongest beliefs is that one of the things that hurts comics the most right now, like that really is a problem for us is the lack of a digital browsability.

All these other medium and all these other things, even manga and... have these massive browsable platforms like Shout and Jump and all this stuff, Crunchyroll, whatever, where you can go and you can just read all the stuff and then you go get the collectible aspects of it, webtoons, whatever. And so comics being so siloed where comixology was saying, let's expand and have DC Marvel and you get a subscription to it, you could read all this backlist stuff. I believed in that dearly.

And so, and I still do, even though the company is going through changes. I mean, Point being, simply that those two guys were always about comics and about creators. And the fact that they decided to start their own company and be like, look, we want you guys to own it where you all have a stake in it. I have a percentage in it. James has a percentage in it. Jock, these are all my closest friends. You know, Becky.

These are people that inspire me on the page and also I love as human beings and be like, we can all own a company together with people that we know we trust. has been wonderful and the books that have come out from Lisa, Tula and Becky and from As and Eduardo, Blood Brothers Mother, I just read it, it's so good. Every book has been great. Spectrograph is gonna blow your mind too from James and Christian. And so everything has been a huge thrill to be a part of Gone by Jacques.

And so White Boat is in that spirit. It's like at a place where creators are supporting creators. The publishers are supporting the creators too, and we're all in it together. Like we all have a stake in each other and in the company itself. So it's a lot of fun as a tree house to like make stuff in. Yeah. Distillery is a really interesting idea. I think fans were really excited about it when it was first announced and I've actually had the chance to read Spectrograph.

So along with White Boat, very excited for both of those to get in the hands of readers and Luckily enough, I know you get a kick out of this. We're going to have James and Christian on the show in a couple of weeks to talk about spectrograph the week. So very and I know you talked to James like pretty much every I'm seeing him for dinner. The 27th. Yeah, this month, a week I'm driving in to have our regular dinner together. So he's like, I can't say enough good things about him.

If you haven't picked up spectrograph or you missed the order cut off. go get it, I'm sure it'll sell out. It's amazing, like everything he does. He's the best writer in comics and one of the best human beings on the planet. So I'm like not anything but praise for him on every level. I met him, he was my student when he was an undergrad and I was like a adjunct teacher. I was in my, I don't know, my 20s, my mid 20s and he was like, we've known each other forever. He was a child.

And like, he was brilliant and like. He handed in all these amazing comic scripts and stuff. And then when I broke in to comics, it was before I broke in, it was like just as I was breaking in, I was like, you know what? That kid that wrote those great things, I wanna show him this pitch for American Vampire and see what he thinks. I was only, I don't know, nine years older than him or whatever. And so it was like, and then James and I have been friends ever since.

So to have your, I've said it many times, but to have your student become somebody who you learn from, who's a good teacher to you is a great feeling and he's just the best. Yeah, it's been really cool to see him kind of ascend over the last couple of years. And he's like also not only one of the best writers in working today, but also one of the most business savvy in the entire industry, you know, with tiny onion. So, my Lord, I ask him all the time for advice now with that.

I'm like, because we have, I mean, it's funny too, like to see everybody with different ambitions. Like I'm very conservative in a lot of ways. Like I, I always felt like this job would not last. You know, like it would never last. And when I got married to Jeannie, we were kids. And I remember saying like, I'm going to be a writer. We met when she was in med school and I was in grad school for writing.

And she was the, her part of her work study was to be the receptionist in the writing program. So I was like, she's like this, you know, super cute woman who works here. And, and she was like, a doctor was way smarter than me. stuff. Anyway, the point is like the back then when we met, I remember saying to her when it got serious, like, I am never gonna have a career where I'm the one making any money.

Like you will always be the provider in that regard, but I will take care of the kids and do anything to make this work. And so like, for me, I've always proceeded like I've won the lottery, I can't believe I make a living doing this.

And, and then she does, I mean, she hasn't worked like it's me, you know, that I've been the one doing all this, like, in a lot of ways and that's been a huge joy when she can take time and do what she wants and then, you know, all of it is like, just trying to, so I'm, I always act like it's all going to go away at any minute is the way I feel.

So I'm very risk averse where I'm like, you know, I'm very creatively like not risk averse, like I want, but I like to know that I have a partner, you know, that's like solid or I'll take a risk and be like, I'm going to pay for this book. I have a great feeling about it. But if I know if I'm paying for a book that I know will like cost a lot of money and it's out of my pocket, then I'll be like teaching or doing something else, you know, to try and balance it.

Anyway, the point is, like, I love that James is so ambitious and has so many plans to take over the world. And I was like, give me a job when you do, please. Give me a mind, please. Yeah, I'll intern for you and, and that but you know, for me, I think, The newest thing and the biggest thing has been this love of animation. I really, I didn't know that I would like it this much, but I love working in it. It's like comic people, it's so collaborative and it's really not live action stakes.

It's like much more, you know, communal and people are happy geeks and they're also like really believe in the medium is about to explode and Amazon took a big bet on witches as something that will be a horror. water cooler kind of show. It's like very gory and R rated, but it's a lot of heart and it's very different than anything you've seen. So they're going to put it on with invincible and be like, here we go. Let's see. And I love that they're trying that.

It's a place where people can take big swings animation. So I love that creatively that it feels, it feels really ripe for expansion. Yeah. Well, Scott, I have one final question for you here and you'll. Last week, we were talking to Jason Aaron and he said, well, he gave this amazing story about meeting Marv Wolfman and George Perez as a young person and how that along with their run on the new Teen Titans essentially convinced him that he wanted to make comics one day.

And believe this or not, and this was what I was alluding to at the beginning of the conversation. You and Greg were those creators for me. You know, your new 52 Batman run, as we've talked about throughout this conversation, sort of kicked down the door for me into the world of comics that I now live in. and flipped the switch in my head, proved that this art form is truly special.

And meeting you both at Planet Comic Con a long time ago, along with your your anchor, Jonathan Gapion, many, many years ago was essentially the catalyst for my love of the medium. So I'm curious for you, do you have a creator or a series that sort of did that same thing for you back in the day? I don't have a series. I've been in comics like so long. It's. My parents claim that they have my first comic. It still has like marker on it. I'll send a picture of it next time I'm in there.

They have a cabin in Pennsylvania, which is where like witches was inspired. It's Superman versus the Hulk. It's like the, it has the Joker, it's Batman versus Hulk, sorry. It's the, you know, the Jorge Garcia Lopez. And it's got like the Shaper of Worlds and all that stuff where it's the. Also Joker is beautiful. It's a beautiful comic. Yeah, it's like Batman versus the Hulk and the Joker is in it. And I forget who the Hulk villain is. I don't remember, but it's oversized and they have it.

So, I mean, I was like, you know, nothing but my earliest, some of my earliest memories, you know, with my dad or we would always go to the old forbidden planet was on 11th Street. They had an upstairs and a downstairs on Broadway. It's still kind of over there, but they moved a few times. But it's and I grew up down. the Lower East Side, 21st Street, and East River. And we'd go there on Wednesdays.

So what I remember was like always loving comics, always reading comics, but The Dark Knight really was, as cliche as it is, like the book that like just blew my head off. I still have my original four issues all beaten up. But I grew up, like I said, in New York City, and that book, between that and then year one.

I don't know how to explain how real that made Batman to me where, you know, the fears expressed in Dark Knight Returns about being nuked and like, you know, the city falling apart and this kind of, the New York City was like a mess in the 80s. And there was this feeling that this book was happening in the real world in a lot of ways. And it felt so immediate. And that was the book that just like, like made me be like, this can be more than escapist entertainment, even at that young age.

I mean, I was nine or something when I read that, you know? And then that started my path. So as I'm sure many, many people will answer that book, but it's true. Like, so meeting Frank for me, it was unbelievable. I mean, I was like, I never, Dan knew how much it would mean to me. And to his credit, it was a long time ago. It was, I mean, I've met Frank many times now and now we're friends, but like, Not to, I'm not saying that in a braggy way. I mean, Frank Miller, we're tight.

Well, I just like, I mean, it's been many years now where we're both like in the same sphere and it comes together and all of that. And I'm friend, you know, his, his, his partner, Salen were like all of us were friends, but the, I still remember like him walking into the bar in Hell's Kitchen. Dan took me to, and I was terrified and Frank walked in and I had just been, it was when I was doing zero year.

So I was doubly terrified because I was like, He's gonna think I'm rewriting year one and what am I doing? And I'm never as good as that, obviously. And Dan had told me he had been reading it. So I was just like, my God, what the fuck am I doing with my life? This is terrible. And he came in and he was wearing the hat. So I saw him from the doorway and I was like, my God.

And he came over and he shook my hand and he was like, Scott, I've been reading Zero Year and he's like, for once, somebody gave Bruce a good goddamn haircut. And I was like, can I just put that on my tombstone and just like, can we end this right now and just leave? But he was great and he was very kind and very, very supportive and he listened to all of my effusive praise of the stuff that he had done. So yeah, that was it.

And I can tell you one other story that meant a lot to me and it's this page behind me. I have a page behind me on my wall. I was 13 and now I wanted to be a comic writer. an artist at the time. And I had like a portfolio of copies that were horrible of like everybody image at that time. But they weren't image yet. It was still Marvel. But I went to a con in at the Penn's Plaza Hotel and it was McFarland, Todd McFarland was there and I was, it was my 13th birthday almost.

And I had saved up like a few hundred dollars to buy a page. And the line for him was like three hours long. It like went all the way around. And I waited with my dad. forever and I finally got up to Todd and he had already, you know, he'd been there for hours. And I was like, can I, I'd like to buy a page and he had this huge spread of pages and it was like divided by, you know, price. And I was like, it's my dad was like, it's his birthday, you know, you're his favorite artist.

And he was like, your birthday? Like, come over here kid. You know, like that kind of, you know, he's like, How old are you, like 25? And I was like, no, no, no. He was like, he had like, he was so - Just a ball of charisma. he's just, yeah, absolutely ball of charisma. And so he was like, if it's your birthday, let me pick a page to give you. And he picked this page, which is, you can see, is like Spider -Man full on. wow. If you can see.

Yeah. It was way out of my price range, meaning like I, it was not a page that was like $200. I don't know what it was back then, probably $1 ,000, I don't know. But he gave it to me and he drew me a Spider -Man on the back and it says, Happy Birthday Scott, on the back of that. And I'll never forget like that. To this day, it hangs over my desk, not just because it was the first comic art I ever owned, but because it burned into my brain.

Like if I ever make it, that's how you should be all the time, like that. You know, I told him I actually got to go on Howard Stern Geek Time with him was I saw him early in my career in like 2011, 2012, and I brought it. I was like, Todd, like this is he was really funny. He was like, God, he was like, I can't believe I gave that to you. Give it back. I was like, no, no, it's mine now, but I'll never sell it. I was like, you know. So, yeah. Wow. That's a great story. That's a good one.

I have to say, I mean, I was pretty bamboozled by Jason's, you know, kind of short story about meeting George and Marv, but. That is pretty cool. You get a full page, like a true Spider -Man page from Todd is that's a good one. So congrats on that. Yeah. It has this fighty head on the back that says happy birthday, Scott. Wow. In webbing. That is incredible. Like in those webs. Yeah. It's the best. Scott, you know, it's been such an honor to have you here on the Oblivion Bar podcast today.

And, you know, again, sorry for sort of butting you up there at the end, but I truly wouldn't be able to forgive myself if I had you on here for a conversation and didn't at least verbalize, you know, how much your work.

and in your work with Batman on excuse me on Batman with Greg essentially created the foundation for my you know, some would say excessive love of the medium and this show that we're on right now, the library behind me and my love of comics likely wouldn't exist without you and your work. So I just want to say thank you for that at least. That really means the world, dude. And again, like thank you for what you guys are doing. You're killing it. Thank you.

So it's a real thrill to get to be here and hopefully you'll get to come back when we announce more stuff. sometime later in the year. That'd be incredible. So I'm going to pass Patan off to you. Is there anything that you want to plug or any socials you want to highlight before we let you go? No, I really, again, like, yeah, white boat is still out up for order and we'll be, we'll be announcing like the final pub date really soon.

We also, I forgot, I'm not supposed to say, but we have like special stuff we're making to go along with it that I'm very excited about where they're going to announce it. We wanted to make it a whole experience. So it'll be a really immersive fun thing. But I'm on Twitter and I'm on Instagram and my DMs are still open always. You can always reach out and let me know how you think we're doing.

And I just hope also, the only thing I'd plug is like one thing I really love doing the class like over at Substack. I never expected it to get as many people in as it has, but I'd love to just keep it going. and growing it because it's something that I just look forward to it every month, honestly. So it's a monthly class where we do a different topic live. We do it on Wednesdays, like once a month at 9 .30 p Eastern.

It's live, but then if you subscribe to it, you can get all the recorded classes on video at our YouTube archive. Like we have 20 or 25 at this point on everything from like creating villains to... different kinds of endings, everything. We have guests, we have Greg Capullo, we have James Tynan, we have Donny Cates, just all kinds of people on there. And yeah, we really, Tyler and I really love doing it. So if you sign up, it would mean a lot, because it's a huge inspiration for me.

And I really like getting to know the people in the class a bit. So it's fun seeing their work and using it in class too. Yeah, that's our best jacket over on Substack for everybody that if you're subscribed to any Substack, I think that's probably... One of the best ones out there. So I agree. I agree 100%. So Scott, once again, thank you so much. And I would absolutely love to have you back on the show at some point down the road. Yeah, I'd love it, man. Thanks so much.

Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Aaron. All righty. There's that conversation with Scott Snyder as we said, wonderful conversation. Glad that we could sit on the couch and listen to Scott talk about all things DC. He really, truly gave it to us, Aaron, in terms of giving us an inside look about of that time frame with the new 52 and. all the things that were happening behind the scenes. And I think he even mentions in the conversation that he is going to be making a return to D .C.

here soon, which is exciting. I don't know if you know this is Aaron, but we have had a lot of horror creators on recently, people who specialize in horror. And it's not even it's like, what is it? It's May. It's not even it's not even October yet. It's not spooky season yet. We're talking to these horror writers. That's why I mean, we ask the question every single time. We're like, why is horror so popular these days? We I mean, I'm pretty sure we bring that up.

almost every conversation about the popularity of horror, but it's like, that's, that's just the way it is. And it's, and it's not just because of the fact that it's horror, but it's some of these, some of these stories are just amazing horror stories, either just stories that happen to be horror stories, but they're fantastic. And I'm so excited for so many of them. It just so happens that we're talking to creators that either specialize in horror or have had a recent horror book come out.

So it makes sense that we have to talk about it. And Aaron, You and I are both big horror fans. Listen to our freaking intro music like it is so 1980s synth horror. It's not even funny. So of course that we're going to have that inherent interest in folks that kind of specialize and that are really good at that genre. So again, I know I say in the conversation I try I try to keep the facade, the journalistic integrity, whatever you want to call it.

But I mentioned there at the end, Scott, again, just one of my favorite creators of all time. If nothing else, if he was to only create Batman, Cordovaus. Just that story alone. Forget all the other incredible stories he's done. He would still be a very like central pillar in my fandom of comics. Of course, that's not all he's done.

He's done a bunch of incredible stories and we're so excited for him and Francisco and a story just again, two episodes in a row with distillery creators, both last week with James Tynan and Christian Ward talking about spectrograph. And then this week with Scott Snyder talking about white boat distilleries doing great things there. They are. I'm so excited for everything they're coming.

I mean, we even had a quick moment to stop to talk to, distillery social media manager over at CTD to, and the stuff that she just shout out to page, shout out to page of the stuff that she disclosed to us. I'm so excited for as well. So, I don't think we even talked about this yet, but chip Mosher, who's one of the co -creators of distillery along with David Steinberger, he was actually at the booth there for a moment with page.

And I got to talk to him for a moment, kind of congratulate him on distillery, pick his brain on what they're doing. here in the future. And just, I'm telling you right now, if you're listening to this and you're excited about distillery, there's going to be more greatness coming our way. You know, we got a Brian Azzarello book coming out here in the next week. So just beep, it's just going to be banger after banger over to story.

So once again, thank you so much, Scott Snyder for joining us here on the oblivion bar podcast. That's another milestone here. We haven't done a milestone in a while, but that put that in the milestone bank. But speaking of milestones next week on the show, we already mentioned her, but. Amy Jo Johnson live from C2E2 live from the Intercontinental Hotel. Now we can say that live because she's not there anymore.

But live in the Intercontinental Hotel downtown Chicago, we talked to Amy Jo Johnson about basically her beginning career at Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, sort of what else she's been working on outside of, you know, since then, I guess since the 90s and then also her return to the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers with her co -writer, Matt Hopkins. Yeah, exactly. With the return. Right. So, Aaron, and I say it during the conversation, I'm going to say it again here.

Big kudos to you for making that happen. You were the one who reached out to Amy via email and it worked out. Somehow we got her. We got her. We got her. I'm glad I could help make that dream come true for you, man, because it was a dream come true for me as well. That's right. Anything you want to prime the listener with, with that Amy Jo Johnson conversation going into next week? Is there anything you want to kind of set the people up with?

I'm just going to let everybody know that you can hear it in my voice. You can hear it in my questions. Like I was absolutely for some reason terrified. anxious, nervous, just pacing around. I was pacing. I was like looking around corners. I was like, I was man. I don't know. I do not know why, because normally I don't have those like emotions when it comes to my, you know, the interviews, but holy shit, I was just like fucking nervous man. I was so nervous.

But usually, well, I was just saying weirdly, I was just Zen, man. I was, I was not nervous. I don't know why. I don't know why I wasn't nervous. Cause I love, obviously I love her and I love hers. You know, Kimberly on the Power Rangers, very pivotal to my to my fandom and childhood. And but yeah, it was just it was just cool, man. I was just like normal.

Do you feel that it could have been because you basically you kind of took my role in this situation where like I tried to over I tried to prepare as much as I could for this. Yeah. You know, setting it up. I tried because I don't know if you're normally nervous when interviews are about to happen because like you feel like anything can kind of really. screw up or anything can happen or it's going to go terribly. And that's what I felt.

I was like, I'm the one who's kind of like at the forefront of this one. If it goes bad, it makes, you know, like I look like an idiot or I feel like I'm looking dumb here. And Chris is over there just like, fuck yeah, I get to meet my childhood crush. I had like my legs crossed. I was like, totally cool.

But she had like a calming aura about her, like when she and I say it in the conversation, like I say it several times when she is talking about the things that she's truly passionate about, she just exudes. this like calming energy and it really is.

You can hear me start to calm down towards, you know, the middle and the end of the conversation because I'm just like in awe of this energy that she's giving off, we know how with, you know, how, you know, she's talking about her career and how she's finding her place in the world. And I just, I loved it. I think that's where I kind of got it. Maybe she had been a little more, you know, antsy, a little bit more nervous. Maybe I would have felt that a little bit, but.

I think from the beginning she was really calm and collected. And I think I kind of fed off that myself and to kind of speak on what you were saying a moment ago, I think in the beginning, when we first started having careers on and then we had to prepare for those conversations, I would get extremely nervous because, and we even talked about it before the conversation. We'll talk about this more next week, but basically I would over prepare. I would overwrite questions.

I would get over invested. I did exactly that. And that's exactly what you did. And that's okay, because that's what we all do. We want to make sure that it goes well. But I think as time goes on, I have started to trust you and I a little bit in terms of. how we approach conversations. We are very flexible in the way that we talk to creators now, because generally I will again, Amy being the kind of the bylaw at this moment are not nervous.

I know I'm not, I'm not ever really nervous in these conversations because these are just really talented nerds. Like of course I admire them for what they do, but they are people like you and I. So I was definitely in my own head because like you see, like again, sitting there, I had my iPad open with all my questions. I felt like something was going to go wrong with that. And I was just like too much trying to be like prepared in the moment. And at one point I'm just like, you know what?

Fuck this. And I just closed the iPad. I was like, damn, all right, here we go. Let's do this. So which I school again, I totally I've been where you are. And I, you know, in that moment, I couldn't be like, hey, it's all good, dude. They always say you have to be uncomfortably comfortable. Right. And I think that maybe that maybe the Amy conversation. And again, I said earlier, it's a great conversation. You guys will probably I've edited the conversation.

You don't really hear our nerves that much. Maybe a little bit in the beginning, but truthfully, like about five minutes in, we're all just having a great casual conversation. And I really enjoy that. So tune in next week for that Amy Jo Johnson conversation. Again, as I said earlier, she's just as wonderful as you think she would be. So that'll do it for episode one fifty four. Aaron, please take us out of this episode. All right.

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over and over and over again. Dormammu, I've come to make a bargain over and over and over and that bargain is tipping your bartender. You'll end up on a boat with your brother and your father and your father will die mysteriously in the ocean. I think that's that's a white boat reference for everybody that hasn't read the story yet. It's good. All right, buddy. Thank you so much for listening to the Bluebeam Bar podcast. We will see you next week for episode one fifty five.