INTERVIEW: Matt Yocum

Hi there, this is Matt Yocum, comic book writer of an Army of Hope Requiem for a Robot in Closet World. And you are listening to the Oblivion Bar podcast. Welcome to the Oblivion Bar podcast with your host, Chris Hacker and Aaron Norris. Joining me today is the comic book writer of titles like An Army of Hope, Requiem for a Robot, and his most recent venture, successfully crowdfunded Closet World.

He's also retired United States Air Force Colonel, but maybe more impressively, he also wrote an issue of Wolverine where he gradually babysits a little girl. It is my pleasure to welcome Matt Yocum onto the Oblivion Bar podcast. Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. I listen to you guys all the time, and I'm just so excited to get a chance to talk to you. that means so much. We were talking a little bit before the recording how that that's never going to not surprise me.

You know, when people say that they listen to the living bar, like we had Patrick Horvath on the show recently and he says he listens. I'm like, what? That's not a thing. You don't listen. And he's like, yeah, I'm like, you know, that's amazing. I appreciate it. Thank you. Also, Matt, as well. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Now, am I saying? go ahead. Quick, and I have to say, you know, that it's unfortunate that Aaron can't be here as a fellow retired veteran.

let me say, since he's not here, congratulations to him and his career, anybody who's put the time in and they're retired. You know, obviously I'm so grateful for the time he put it in and I wish I could, you know, meet him virtually here as well. But just glad to be here with you. Well, I think at some point, well, depending on how well this goes, and I'm anticipating that will go well. We'd love to have you back on at some point. And obviously Aaron will be here the next time. Cause I agree.

It would be great to get you guys together. Cause you know, I put my four years in, know, and everybody, everybody who joins the military in some facet, if you put your name on the dotted line, whether you're reserves or you did 25 years and you had six, you know, overseas tours and all the things, think regardless of all that, if you put your name on the dotted line, you deserve a ton of credit. And of course, that's coming from someone who only did four years and never deployed.

know, as someone who's probably seen a lot more than I have, I think you maybe would probably agree. 100 % the vast majority of the population does not put on the uniform. So for anybody, it doesn't matter how long they did it. It's kudos for anybody who signs up and does their time to serve the country and give back. Well, it's funny, we sort of perfectly transitioned into my first point in our conversation together.

So, and actually real quick, before we get into the conversation, Yocum, am I saying that correctly? That's right. Perfect. Exactly. You know, if Aaron was here, and again, as we've already said, you've listened to the show, so you know this, I cannot pronounce words. It's like, it's a thing where, you know, like when you see a word, like in a book or whatever, you say it in your head. And then when you try to say it with words, it just comes out differently. It doesn't come out.

Yeah, that's right. That's me all the time. I can't pronounce things. anyway. That's a great trait for a podcaster. Yeah, right. Exactly. It is like my biggest Achilles heels that I can't pronounce. Yeah. I go to Aaron and he's like, dude, it's this, you know, and I'm like, right. So anyway, we're talking about the military here and I want to just sort of pick your brain.

I want to get sort of the listener familiar with you and your career, not only as a comic book writer, but also your time in the military. So sort of broadly, let's talk about that. Let's talk about, know, what is your history? What got you into the military? Eventually you were in the air force, eventually retired as a colonel again. Congratulations. haven't said that yet. Thank you. Incredible.

But also, can you give us sort of a lowdown on, you know, what got you into the military and then also what came first? Was it comic books, nerd culture? I know you love Star Wars as well. Did that come before the military or did that come while you were in the military? Yeah, I'll start with that last part first. Nerd culture started for me prior to the military.

So my love of science fiction, my love especially of comics, you know, and I know exactly which issue it was, Iron Man number 165, where he's, you know, coming out of a castle with his armors melting around him and his fist raised. Danny O'Neil wrote it and... It ends on a cliffhanger, but then the next month I was able to get the next issue and see how that resolved. And that was it. Kind of the OCD completist in me just loved to get every issue from that point on. And then was pre-internet.

The hunt was on to get every issue prior. So a couple more later, 165. Yep. 165 was the issue. I'm sorry. I thought you said 162. I apologize. no, huh? Yeah, 165. And but that was it. The hunt was on to get everything that meant flea markets and, you know, garage sales. That's it. He's coming out with his armor melted. Yep. I love to me that cover is iconic because it just shows like his strength and despite everything, you know, falling down around him.

Sure. So that You know that in story, I've had a love of story and storytelling and good stories. And then of course the big action and the big stories that are told in comics. So it was also around the era of the direct market. I grew up in a small town in Kentucky, in Northern Kentucky, a similar area where the artist David Mack is from. We went to the same shop growing up and we had a shop in our small town. prior to the military, This was, I just got infected with it.

I was at a young age when I was able to see Star Wars, you know, the first one live. Of course that informed so many, you know, of our youth, Battlestar Galactica and so on. That precedes. In parallel to that, I was fairly driven at a fairly early age. And so I was enamored with the space program and I had a dream to be an astronaut. So I decided I want to go to the Air Force Academy.

I want to be a- I want to graduate from there so I can become a fighter pilot and then I want to be a test pilot and then I want to be an astronaut. And so I literally set my whole, you know, focus of school from that point on was to make that happen. And then when I was at the Air Force Academy, kind of really was my last year is when I realized the dream to fly was not really as strong as I thought it had been. And I had been writing short stories again prior to.

coming in the military before going to the academy. I had been writing short stories and sending science fiction short stories to magazines, know, Isaac Asimov's science fiction magazine and amazing stories and going to the libraries to read submission guidelines, since then I saw myself honestly as a storyteller first above everything. And it was my senior year before I graduated. So the last second I pivoted and decided, you know what, I'm not gonna go to pilot training. This isn't for me.

And then I just use the Air Force for the next 30 years to feed me with every unique experience I could get. I would raise my hand for it. So yeah. It's interesting is that it's funny to hear you say that how you had sort of one goal and then you got into the military and sort of completely flipped out on its head. And I think that's a lot of young people, right? I mean, you joined when you were really young. was it 17 when you joined? 17? Yeah, I was 18 when I met Aaron.

We actually met while we were in the army together. He was in his mid to late twenties and I was, I mean, a fresh out of high school. So, and, and I think you could agree with this. Many folks who have been in the military will attest to this as well is that the military, uh, cause you Aaron and I are army is what you get out. Like you get out of it. What you put into it, right?

Like whatever you want in the military, if you want to travel, if you want to get a free education, if you want to get out of your shell, get out of home, like, you know, all the things you can do that while the military. So obviously you are sort of at the beck and call of the government in a way. Right. You know, none of this is free. Of course you have to do things for that, but it is, I think.

extremely valuable for a young person to a leave home, but also get a little structure in the military. Yeah, you're exactly right. You know, I did not set after I graduated, I know I owed five years and then I was fortunate I was able to go straight to graduate school. So I owed three years, not concurrently, but consecutively.

So because I went straight to three weeks after I graduated, I was back in school at grad school and I knew, okay, I know I owe eight years instead of the, you know, the standard five years at the end of graduation. But when I, when I, you know, approached that eight years, I had no designs on anything like I didn't decide, I've got to get to 10 or I've got to get to 20 and then retire 20 or, you know, or do 30 or whatever I literally was, I'm to keep looking for unique opportunities.

If they give them to me, I'm going to stay in and I kept getting assignment after assignment that I wanted. And as long as I did that, I'm like, there's there's just no sense getting out. I like what I do. It's having a ton of fun. It's a lot of work, but I'm having a ton of fun. And I keep, again, I saw myself as a writer first.

And so because I kept raising my hand for so many unique assignments, I had one of the most eclectic careers that a lot of military people, they'll tell you, it's just so, it was so non-standard. And then second, because of that, I'm flooded with just personal experiences and travels and people and, you know, getting a chance to live almost a decade out of the country to get to know different cultures and learn their languages. So. You know, it's exactly what you said.

You get what you put into it. For some people, I recognize, my brother was an example of this. He did five years in the Air Force. There were aspects of it that did not suit his personality. So he did his time and he got out. And then in the civilian world is really where he thrived. It gave him some good things, but I also knew for him, this just doesn't suit him. And I was glad when he got out when he did and really found his footing outside.

For me, it did because it just kept giving me what I wanted. Sure. Yeah. You've almost perfectly described Aaron and I like he did 20. He did his 20 years and you know, I want to go and I did my four years, of course, like we talked about, but I want to go back on what you said there a moment ago. You were talking about sort of, you know, you, put it, you put in your time and then you get to a certain point, you have to decide whether you get out or you stay in. And I've always heard that.

And I, again, I only did four and a half years. So they always tell you, if you do any more than four and a half, you might as well just stay in. Right. Because the next term you're getting to like around eight or nine years in and you're already halfway there. You might as well just stay in for the other half and get that. That's right. I Aaron is sorry, but I'm putting Aaron's business out for everybody listening right now. But Aaron is like not even 40 yet and he has a full pension.

OK, that's right. is incredible stuff. And then, know, and that you don't have many industries in the world where that is even possible. So I totally get why you did that. And again, gosh, I keep saying this, but I really wish Aaron was here because He did the same thing. He was public affairs in the army where there's like 17 people in the army that do that. You know, like it's, I see a very similar path with you in the air force as well. Yeah, it's funny you say that.

I recognize I'm in a very, very unique position having done a full 30 years retiring at the rank that I got to, which was a long, it's a long story. I should not have gotten to the rank that I got to because I was making personal decisions over professional, but because I just, I would just put my head down and work. ultimately it caught up and people kind of took care of me. It didn't happen right away when it was, you know, when you would hit certain gates for promotion. I didn't hit those.

But then other people would see, just never phoned in the job. never, you know, I never quit. I just kept working. I mean, to me, you just, you serve, it's not even serve. You just work with excellence in everything at every time. It's not an on-off switch. You just are. So, and that includes writing, anything. Like I'm always trying to get better as a writer, as a, I don't know, as a person, as a father, as a whatever.

even before I had kids, like I would just try to learn like what's working with, you know, this family and their kids and not working with this. And so people then took care of me. But going back to where I started with this, I recognized that retiring with the years that I did at the rank that I did, I'm in a privileged position of retirement and a level of, what do you call it, like medical and other services for me and especially for my family.

That's allowing me to make decisions now that I would not have been able to make. There'd be a lot of other choices I'd have to make.

And so that's what's allowing me now on the other side of retirement to do a whole host of very different things and kind of pick and choose, you know, which ones, A, do I want to pursue and then B, you know, as some, as I cast different seeds and see which ones sprout on different, you know, post Air Force jobs, I can, I can cast the seeds that I want and then whichever one sprout I can decide. Yep, I'm gonna pursue that one a little bit more or no, I'm actually not gonna pursue this one.

So they have a saying, I don't know if you're familiar with this or not, but in the military, they say, stay water. You got to stay flexible. You know, you got to adjust. You got to, got to, you know, got to be able to zig when someone's zags that kind of thing. And I'm a firm believer inside the military or not. And it's a lot of military talk, everybody. will get to comics in just a moment.

But I'm a firm believer that the people who are the most successful in civilized world in our civilized world is flexibility and inquisitiveness. Right. If you were, if you were curious and if you, and Headstrong, which you had mentioned as well, I think is very important as well in this world. You have to be able to want something and go after it. But I also think you need to stay curious. You need to stay. And again, you stay flexible.

If you fail, which I'm sure you failed throughout your life. I know I have, you gotta be able to be like, okay, well let's move on to the next thing. You can't just stay stagnant. Right. And I have one more military question before we move on. And it sort of ties in this whole thing is. What is the correlation with, you know, nerd culture and the military? Because I know for Aaron and I, part of the reason why we became best friends almost immediately, because he was my superior.

I got in as an E3. He was an E5 at the time when we first met. And part of the reason why we instantly connected was because of like nerd culture, our love of Tron, of Daft Punk, of comic books, of, you know, schlocky 80s action, know, like all these things that we have now transitioned into the Oblivion bar. We wear it on our sleeves basically. It started in the military. Pokemon, another good example of this. Like we would travel around with each other throughout Georgia.

We were stationed in Fort Stewart and Savannah, Georgia. We would travel to these different trading card tournaments and have a weekend of it. So like my question for you is like, do you, are you aware of that correlation? What is that, that connection with like nerd culture and the military? Yeah, it's funny because I had led a panel at a Comic Con. This was pre-COVID. So was in the North Carolina Comic Con up in Durham years ago. And I had led a panel on military and comics.

it was, you know, there's a couple of ways you could approach that. You could talk about comics in the military. Or I'm sorry, the military in comics, like storylines about, I don't Sergeant Rock, yeah. Exactly. So you could do stuff like that. Or you could talk about a connection between the two. And so we kind of made it a little bit more of that.

You know, one thing when we when we go back to like, when we look at let's say, newsreels from World War Two, you know, these are people who are seeing adventures of people going off and having a far off adventure serving something that's bigger than themselves, a cause that's bigger themselves. And so Number one, there's kind of a corollary along with that.

Like we recognize, even if whether you like the military or don't when you're in it, you do have this common sense that I am part of something bigger than myself. Regardless of the administration, I am an element of the national. That's right. That's right. I am a part of something that's bigger than myself. That's part of the, you know, a national instrument of power that they have that has, you know, at your nation's disposal and, there's pride and there's history.

So serving something bigger than yourself, that's one thing that correlates. And then when we read these stories, it's people who have these powers to serve a cause bigger than themselves. I think that's part of it. And then outside of the correlation between, you know. a story and service is the escapism aspect of just having something that is different. again, go back to World War II, this was one of the most common forms of entertainment.

It's cheap, it's disposable at the time, of course, it was less of a collectible and so on. And then the last thing is there is still a brotherhood in geekdom, right? So we have multiple brotherhoods.

I also know of people who are big musicians who were in the military and they have their own little subcultures or I don't know, there's other sub communities of people that have a common interest where they're wearing the uniform, but then they have a second interest that draws them with other service members. Mm hmm. Yes. The camaraderie of it, right? Like it's a shared interest fellowship, right? That's the thing that you're often taught. know, misery breeds company in the military for sure.

But yeah, but a lot of times comics, nerd culture, these are very niche interests that very generally very few people have. You know, I think that's why the oblivion bar works so well is because we are speaking to an audience of folks who love these things as much as we do. Yeah. Yeah. And I've been a power fantasy, I think is obviously the the other correlation, right? Like in the military, we are often at the whim of someone else. Right.

We are told to go here, do the right thing at the right time in the right uniform and don't ask questions. Whereas when I read a comic, if I'm reading The Punisher, if I'm reading Superman, I am living that fantasy through their eyes, whether it be again, the darker of Frank's view or a hopeful better tomorrow through Clark's, you know.

Yeah, and you know, going back to the escapist aspect to it, you know, for me, I can I disappear so fully into comics that in my wife, you know, she can attest to this. If she comes up, I can even see her in my peripheral vision coming up. And then if she says my name and it breaks the contact, then I mean, I will physically jump because it is so dislodges me from my my head is literally inhabiting. the story that I'm consuming. And it's that immersive for me.

Like I don't casually read anything. But especially comics. Yeah, I can't either. You're so right. When I'm reading a comic, I have to lock in for those 22 to 48 pages, you know, like, because I have to live it because it's not you're not just reading words and looking at pictures. You are at least what I'm trying to do generally.

And I'm not trying to I'm not trying to like put my pinky out and say like I'm some kind of high brow comic reader, but I'm trying to sort of interpret what the two creatives are trying are multiple creatives, you know, letter or colorist. Inker, everybody art, regular artist, writer. I'm trying to interpret what they're trying to tell me, right? Because they're they're telling me something with the story, but they're also telling me something with their words.

Like there's two different stories happening at the same time. Like Watchmen isn't about old retired superheroes and a big blue guy, right? It's it's a comic about comics. You know what mean? So that's right. Like that's like the two things. And I can't do that while the office is in the background. You know what mean? Like I have to lock in and know and know what I'm reading. Yeah, I have a kind of now less of a, you morning fitness regimen.

And it's more of a morning reading and kind of mental regimen. That's how I start my day now. And it's I don't read like one book straight through. It's almost like channel surfing. I'll read a little bit from a whole bunch of books. And then it ends with a couple of comics every day. And I've discovered that because it's so quiet, I'm still getting up pretty early and it's so quiet, I can so fully dive into it.

During the day, especially I have twin boys who are fairly young and so when I hear them, it is harder for me to disappear into the story. So I crave every morning this quiet, undisturbed reading time. Okay. Sorry. One final last military question that also is comic as well.

But yeah, it got me thinking, you know, again, talking about Aaron and I and sort of that bond that was created in the military and then as since blossomed into something much bigger, do you have someone from your time through your 30 years in the military of you and you talk to them today, someone says like a new trailer breaks or you're reading a comic you really love. Is there someone that you go to that you're like, Whoa, check this out. Like, this is incredible. What do you think?

Kind of thing. You know, it's actually so I have a number of people that I've been close to from multiple assignments and the ones on that side kind of on the geeked side was a little bit later in my career and it was one of my overseas assignments and we spent I was working at a US embassy in Jordan in the country of Jordan and he was a big sci fi reader but he also did like know comics just not as deeply. but we are constantly feeding each other with, I just read this or I just watched this.

You've got to check this out. So I've got a couple of different people. He's probably the one that I'm the closest bonded with on sharing this stuff. Sure. So yeah, percent. Yeah. And you love that. That's the kind of, again, it's the camaraderie part about it. Like I was someone who I played football in high school and then I went straight into the military and then I became a bartender and I was a bartender up until two years ago.

like three, you know, work three industries or three like clubs, if you want to call it that of where camaraderie is so crucial to the overall success of all of those industries. Right. And there are three very different industries, sports. military and then like just a normal restaurant job. But like the camaraderie part of it is it's kind of they have all made me into who I am today in very particular ways. know, is not about me.

This is about you, Matt. And I want to talk to you about the reason why you're actually here. know, not yes. know, military comics, all these things will continue on little bits here and there. But I really want to talk to you about Closet World, which, know, yes, this was a recent or I would say it's recently developed. was recently or how should I phrase this? It was developed as a prose novel and originally, right? With your brother, Richard.

And then it has been recently developed into a comic. So I would love to just sort of pass the buck. This is a big question, but talk a little bit about that development originally with you and your older brother. And then, you know, now transitioning it over into a comic. Yeah. So I'll try to not take too long on it, but it is a long. as long winded as you please. I want all the details. Well, it's a long journey, but it can be summarized. He was, at the time, a single parent.

He had two kids that he was taking care of. Life had really dealt him some hard blows. he was similar. He loved comics, loved science fiction, loved to write. And he would write a lot of fan fiction. Anime and manga, we would go to anime conventions and stuff like that. But as a single dad, then eventually, it's a long story, but he was in some big financial difficulties. He was able to start getting a couple of different jobs. I think at one point he had three jobs plus his two kids.

And I knew he didn't have time to write. I knew when I didn't have time to write, there's a piece of me that was missing and I would feel myself just slowly sinking into the mud. You couldn't fully be yourself. So I came up with an idea of, wrote this opening scene for this story called Closet World and it ends on a cliffhanger. And then I get, and it was prose. I gave it to him and I said, okay, here's our rules.

Number one, you own the next scene and you can write as much or as little as you want. It can be a paragraph or it can be 10 pages or whatever. And then number two, there is no time limit. If you have it ready by tomorrow, great. If it takes you a month, great. So because you, didn't know what you were gonna get, you couldn't actually begin to forecast what you were gonna write.

So it's an exercise in pure creativity and all the normal restrictions of, it's gotta be this long and it's gotta be this soon, all that's off. So he really had the opportunity to just live in a creative space. So we went back and forth. and then the other loose rule was don't... Let's let's not like let's respect the story. Sure. Like don't let me. whenever you Right. Like I'll introduce the character. Don't just shoot them in the next scene. And then, know, ha, see what I did to them?

You know, so it was a tennis, you know, tennis style story. You know, I'd pitch it to him. Then he'd pitch it to me and back and forth. Only recently did I did I recognize how, you know, after we completed it, we we decided at a certain point, you know, we're we're converging on kind of what we think a natural ending is coming. Let's give it six more rounds, three each. And then we decided he would be the last one to finish it up. And then we did.

And then two months after that is when he passed away, he took his own life. And, you know, obviously we were not expecting, you know, this. And so it was a huge, huge blow. I was not writing comics at this point. I was still an avid reader and collector and I was heavily writing prose. I had written a couple of novels at this point that I had shopped and shopped and shopped around. trying to find a home. had a decent agent for the second one. I couldn't land a publishing deal.

So I finally just put them out. And then eventually I started breaking into comics. This is while I was still in the military. And at a certain point I decided, I want to start putting together an independent pitch. What of the prose pieces do I have? Could I do as a comic? And I realized this one is so lends itself to a visual story. And I decided, number one, I want to transform this into you know, into a graphic novel.

And then number two, his kids are getting older and so they don't know Closet World. So this was gonna be my chance to offer them an insight into their dad and his imagination. You know, I had an unbelievable artist from the Philippines named John Amore. I couldn't, you I can't feed John's family. And so John and I, took a long, long, long time to complete this. Cause I was dedicated to him being the sole know, artistic vision.

He paired up with the writer Justin Jordan and did a long running webtoon series called Urban Animal, which I, you know, I applaud. It's like this, this was a way he could take care of his family and then slowly chip away. So we spent many, many years until we finally completed it. I had decided I would not kickstart this until it was done. I did not want to ask people to help, you know, the development of it. but simply the production of it.

So the printing cost, shipping it to me, and then getting it out to backers. And then of course, we were fortunate enough that it was a success. It almost hit double our goal. This was my first Kickstarter, and then now I'm excited. But the true success, honestly, is when I get to hand it to his children, who have since each married and had children of their own, who do not know their grandfather, my brother. and I'll be able to hand it to the grandchildren that he never met.

So that's the story and I actually got through it without choking up because I, I'll be honest, as I got through the Kickstarter, I told my family, said, you know, I've been living, I've been living it a lot, reliving his loss as I've been going through the Kickstarter and sharing the story and, you know, a variety of different outlets, talking to people, trying to get awareness of this and, you know, contribute to the Kickstarter.

It's been an emotionally difficult time because it's been many years since he passed away. But to live it so close again, it really has kind of kept that door open to emotion. And it's not always been easy to put the emotions back in the box. Sure. So, wow. mean, a lot to unpack there, Matt. And first thing, I appreciate you being completely transparent about all that.

I'm very sorry to hear about, you know, your brother and all of that, but it sounds like you are immortalizing him in one of the best ways possible, right? Like you're making this thing that you both were creating and bringing it to life. And like you said, John, his work on this, you know, regardless of how long it took is great. He's an Eiser nominated artist for a reason.

And I really, I, I admire the fact that you were able to just be patient with him and able for, you know, for him to be able to like work on urban animal at the same time as this. And one of my first questions through all of that was how did you end up getting in contact with John? Like how did that relationship start? that's a good question.

I don't remember if it was the digital webbing site back in the day where a lot of there was the right, it might have been that where he was posting on the artist forum. I honestly don't know if digital webbing is still in existence or used as a mean for people to find artists, colorists and so on. I think it was through there and then reached out to him and then worked out a page rate and so on and went forward from there.

The hard thing was this story, is kind of a, I'll just say it's in the vein of Chronicles of Narnia. It's an all ages kind of an adventure. Somebody from the real world who's transported through a closet door into a whole series of times and adventures and talking animals and things like that. Kind of think a little bit of bone, little bit of Chronicles of Narnia. Exactly. So you need the right artists for that. And there's a whole stable of artists that are not the right artists for this.

the tone and John was such a unique singular, you know, look and feel. That's another reason I needed to finish this out with him. You know, there was no one who is going to be able to give it the same look, even if you tried to match it. So. Sure. Yeah. You know, that's one of those things. And I get it. Like comics, it's tough to keep the band together a lot of times with the amount of money that's being put in and put into it and the time constraint and schedules.

But gosh, does it really throw me off sometimes, especially in like the ongoing big two aspect of it all, where it'll be one creator for six issues and it's another creator for six issues. And if it's like a different. arc and there's a different story being told sometimes that's fine. But I usually will like get used to a certain look to a book when I'm reading it. think the example that comes to mind immediately is like Kelly Thompson's Birds of Prey run currently going on.

And you've got Leo Romero on art and there have been two times here and there and Leo is a master. There are times here and there where Leo just can't keep up with that once a month big to drop. And I get that right. But it does feel a little disheartening when I pick up that latest issue and it's not Leo's work, you know? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. There were times where we had long, long stretches that John wouldn't need to be working on other stuff.

But when I would get that next page, was always so worth it because it's like, there's that familiarity, that heartwarming. It's like, there it is. That's exactly what the next page should be. And there's just no one who is gonna make it look like that. So I don't want to get like super spoilery at all. Like I want folks to be able to read this on their own and we'll talk about how people can get access to it here in just a bit.

But I want to ask you, there's sort of a, I feel like there's like a deeper conversation happening with this story in terms of like Johnny and his quest, right? Like throughout the story, he has, again, has this sort of bone-esque chronicles, like you said, Chronicles of Narnia-esque type of escapade. And it seems like his ultimate goal through all of this, through all the craziness that he's gone through. is to just get home, right?

Right. And I'm curious, like, at the end of the story, and again, without details, at the end, he really just wants to get home. And I'm curious, and you don't have to like spell it out for me if you don't want, you know, what's the deeper meaning there, if you can indulge? The deeper meaning, it's actually about the device that he gets. The rig, yes, the reality input generator.

So once he gets that device and then there's a horde of demons trying to chase him down and then there's angels trying to get the device back. It really, it's a little bit of a morality tale to ask the question, if you could have everything you ever wanted, is it really what you want? And he's confronted with that. And so, you you think you do, you think if I, if I truly could have everything, everything that I want, you find it's not all it's cracked up to be.

And so that's the, that was the kind of the question we were trying to answer, but still making it an episodic adventure. It was, you know, fun that anybody could read that his kids at the time could read this. So that was really the theme. you know, just told through this tale of his adventure away from home, which, like you said, it's also a journey, you know, away and all the fun that goes with that. But you never, you never lose sight of your home and then it pulls you back.

I'll give you one quick aside. I had grown up in Kentucky, as I mentioned, and, it was a fairly small town upbringing. And then I had a whole series of military assignments out West. So I was stationed in Colorado Springs and in Las Vegas and Albuquerque, New Mexico and Monterey, California. And I think there might've been one more in there. And I was convinced after I'd gone out West, this is it. I'm never going back to the East. A true Midwestern leaving going, know what?

There's way better out here. I'm like, know, there's everything, there's mountains and there's, you know, incredible views. And yet I think as I got older, it's like I miss home. And then of course, when I had, you know, my twins, is we talked about where are we going to settle for retirement? We ultimately settled here in North Carolina. And it was this kind of pull back to our home and our not necessarily in the exact state, but the environment that we grew up in.

decided this is where we want to raise our boys. so Johnny kind of experiences a little bit of that. You go out and you do this big adventure, do a lot of different locations and times and have fun adventures, but there's something pulling you back. Sure. Gosh, were, you're, you're speaking directly to me. I've left home three times. I've lived in Missouri, Oklahoma, Georgia, and somehow I am, and I'm in Indiana.

So I'm, I was, you know, I don't know where you were at exactly Kentucky, but I'm just in Indianapolis. So we weren't far from each other to begin with, but somehow, and I'm not even like, I don't love Indiana, you know, I just, I've ended up back here because it's comfortable. I know my way around families here. That's really important. I know my way around the city and the state, you know, to a certain extent, but it's just like, yeah, there's something to be said.

And I'm curious what I found, especially this most recent time that I've come back is that when you leave home, it's never really home again. Like, do you, do you feel the same way in a certain aspect? Or are you like, no, I'm comfortable here. This is, this is why I want to be back. I do feel that and that's actually why we didn't move back to where I grew up in Kentucky because it has so grown dramatically. So again, I mentioned David Max from Northern Kentucky.

He went to Northern Kentucky University and you know, and that's where I grew up. But it was across the Ohio River from Cincinnati. So Cincinnati is already, you know, maxed out. So it's only going to grow south or further north into Ohio. But a lot of you know, a lot of that is already, you know, kind of marked out. And so lot of people were moving further south into Kentucky. And when I do go back there, it's nothing like, you know, what I had.

And that's what actually drove us a little bit to here in North Carolina. Number one, was our next, my next to last assignment. I did one more away from my family while they were still here one last year. And then and was able to rejoin them when I retired. But this is more reminiscent of the upbringing I had a smaller town, you know, great place to have some outdoor adventures. but not so far away removed from towns that you can't have like a life in movie theaters and stuff like that.

But one other quick thing, and that is the home aspect of comics. Having grown up with a local comic shop, in the early days of the direct market and the early day of the shops, there is a piece, and it's any comic book store you go into, that feels like a piece of home. Whenever I go in, yes, and I see the titles on the racks, you feel kind of like you're home, right? It's so familiar. And then just the environment in a shop is so familiar that you're just like, I'm home, you know?

It's a great feel. I think I come at this with a little more arrogance, which is annoying for me personally, because are you familiar with parks and rec? Do you like the show parks and recreation? You know what, I never really watched the show. I big office guy. It's totally fine. I honestly, I recommend it. But also there's a scene where one of the characters walks into Home Depot and he's sort of a manly man, libertarian, of built salt of the earth, build everything himself kind of guy.

And he goes to Home Depot and this guy comes up to him and he's like, can I help you with anything, sir? And the character he's like, I know more than you and just keeps going along. That's me at a comic shop when someone's like, hey, how can I help you? like, right. I promise you, I don't need help. I have a, I'm here to look or I've got a very particular thing that I'm looking for.

And I say that internally, I would never ever say that out loud, but like in my head, I'm like, I promise you, don't need like a recommendation or anything. But to get back to closet world, I just want to ask you, I need to be upfront with you and listener here. And I come with this with all the respect in the world. I'm not very religious. And I got to ask you as someone who, know, reading the story and I enjoyed it.

There are, and again, I hope this isn't spoilers, but like there are definite biblical foundations. pieces here in the story. And I'm curious, like, was this a calculated creative decision or did you just sort of pull from what you know and love? think we just pulled from our faith backgrounds. We grew up in the faith and of course everybody at a certain point, especially when you leave home, you begin to explore the world and figure out what you believe versus what you're raised to believe.

And that's a journey in itself and that was a journey for me. But I was ultimately kind of pulled back to a faith and a foundation that I'd had, but then I built on that. In fact, you asked about that, do you have somebody from the military that you're really close to?

We are kind of the opposite ends of the spectrum from a faith perspective, but because his is so well informed and mine is so well informed, we have these incredible discussions with such mutual respect for each other because our positions are so well informed and explored and so on. So when we wrote this, it was just an adventure. It really was, there was no plan. know, that first scene in chapter has no element of faith or anything.

And then I think he's the, if I remember right, he introduced the rig, the reality input generator. And so we're like, okay, that's the device that they're, you know, they're trying to get him, they're trying to get Johnny and get this device back. And I think it's just kind of came out as we built the story from our respective faith backgrounds without, again, it's like Chronicles of Narnia, know, CS Lewis is a renowned, you know, Christian apologist.

By that, mean, you know, apologetics means like a defense of something. He's got some of the most historic books ever written, Mere Christianity and several others. But he's also a just a writer of tales for everybody, morality tales, Narnia is certainly one. Dune and Frank Herbert. Absolutely. Another sort of allegory on religion, not necessarily Christianity, but, I guess there are elements. The Moadib is sort of like a Christ like figure, right?

Exactly, then CSLU's wrote the Space Trilogy, which people are a little bit less familiar with. Tolkien, course, Lord of the Rings, they were contemporaries and friends. Even the new gods, Kirby, like that's all very religious based somewhere or another. Yeah, absolutely. So we did not intend to write a Christian or a faith-based story, but it just has this element of demons trying to chase him and angels trying to chase him. And so, yeah, that's where that came from.

Sure. Yeah. And like I said, as someone who, you know, I can read a story and not, you know, have to completely align with whatever the story is telling me in order to enjoy it. And I'm not even saying that's not, that's how I approached it. I'm just saying like, I can read a book that I find revolting and still find value in it. And I feel like this story again, is not, it's not beating you over the head with, know, this is what you should believe in this. Like, no, of course not.

That's not, I hope everyone that's listening right now that that's not what you were gathering from this. I just found it. very interesting that that's where you went with the story because it goes from like a reality bending, you know, closet transporting story. And then it's like, I think it's like page six or seven. It says heaven. I'm like, whoa, where, how did we get here in heaven? What happened? You know, like, yeah.

So. think he is the one who, if I remember right, I think Richard created the character, that particular character, that particular angel whose job is to manage all the constants, the mathematical constants in the universe. So he's like low, low, low end of the totem pole, but his device is the one that disappears and he realizes, I'm gonna lose control of the universe if this gets in the wrong hands. yeah.

Okay. And so, and as I was looking through a lot of your other work, you know, again, we talked about an army of hope, a record for a robot. These are all being published through hanger 19 and doing a little research here. You've got even an LLC, but the hanger, sorry, it's the, was it? The hanger 19 studios is essentially what a lot of this is being published through.

And I just love to get sort of your thoughts, like explain a little bit about like hanger 19 and the creation of that and sort of the plans. of that studio eventually. Yes. So after I retired, I formed two companies. We realized that we probably should have been a little bit more creative and not have the name so similar. So I have Hangar 19, which is a consulting business. do, you know, I teach communication courses to military clients and I teach a Middle East course.

was a big part of my career was being a Middle East specialist and living in the Middle East almost a decade. So I teach small courses. That's all under my business, Hangar 19. Then I had a second business that I created and that's Hangar 19 Studios. And that is all the creative side. We didn't want one business where they just don't, it just doesn't make sense.

Especially in Hangar 19 Studios, as an example, like with Closet World, which when this, it's on its way to the printer here in the next day or two, post Kickstarter, it's on its way to the printer. Well, it's coming out from me and that is my company, Hangar 19 Studios. So for this project, know, John Amore was part of this project, Tamra Bonville and Fabri Ferdian on colors and then Rob Jones on letters.

So this is me going out and hiring teams that I've decided I'm putting it out under my banner, under my company, Hanger 19 Studios. So I have some stories that I will put out. And then I have other stories that as an example, the longtime Marvel and DC artist, Koi Fom. He's done Mighty Avengers with Brian Michael Vibendis and a whole host of stories that he was the artist for. He and I have partnered up and we do a lot of work together. We have a venturing business.

We do a web comic that's online right now that we are just doing for free for fun called The Breach, a science fiction story and a few other things. So he and I have a podcast actually now. We've got, yeah. So we've got maybe five or six episodes. that we've released where we talk about life in comics, not the nuts and bolts of making them, but how do you achieve balance in your life or how do you find time to focus or how do you manage with trust with a creative team, things like that.

It's called How to Comic with Jokum and Fong, but it's really about how to do life in this. Well, I bring this up because Koi and I, have pitches that we are putting together that we're sending off to other publishers. So not to put out via Hangar 19 Studios. but to send to a variety of different publishers to see if there may or may not be interest there.

But like I said, I have a series of creations, Closet World being one of them, and Army of Hope, another one, Requiem for a Robot, all fitting in, those two fitting in a sci-fi universe that I've kind of built out, that I decided I will release these myself. And so it's coming out, those two are on Global Comics, the website. And then eventually I may or may not. look to turn those into physical products, possibly through Kickstarter or maybe through other means.

Sure. Is there a sort of a wider distribution plan for Closet World? Like could someone go to their LCS and grab a copy if they wanted? Because I'm publishing it myself under Hangar 19 Studios, what I did know is I knew if I'm gonna try to get this into bookstores, I'm gonna need a barcode and an ISP and number. So I've taken care of all of that. I may or may not sell it through Amazon. I'm still trying to decide that.

I will go to the local shops that I can and see if I can leave X number of copies with them to sell. But I'm not really intending to try to find a way to get an account with Lunar. or Penguin Random House, or anybody else who might pop up like the potential sale of diamond to Alliance Entertainment and stuff like that. So right now I'm not gonna go down that road to distribution to get it out into broader comic shops around the country, but as a graphic novel.

And that was one of the reason when I did this originally I was looking at multiple issues and decided, no, let me collapse this all at once so I can get it through book distribution. And that gives me options. whether it's through Amazon or of course I'm gonna sell it on my own website to people and then I can take it to cons and stuff like that. Sure. What's your, do you have an upcoming con that you're going to that people can look out for you?

Yes, Koi and I, Fan Expo just told us they would bring us out to Fan Expo Denver. So not for a little while, we'll be going to that. My nearest big one that I always go to is Heroes Con in Charlotte. That is, I think that's in. to you could be right there. thought I saw I thought I saw it coming out here soon, but I'll look it up for us real quick. It is. Yeah, you're right. It's June 20th. Yeah, June 20th.

And then in June and then in July, that's when I'll be at the first week actually over the fourth of July. That's when I'll be in Denver at FAN Expo Denver. then, yep. And then Baltimore. I always go to Baltimore. that is, yeah. Baltimore. That's one every year. I'm like, gosh, I need to go to Baltimore. And then I ended up going to New York Comic-Con. I'm like, I can't do both. Unless you live in that area, of course, you could totally do both.

being in Midwest, I have to decide whether I want to go to New York Comic-Con mid October or Baltimore, usually the last week of October. tell you Baltimore is, it's a comics lovers. Everyone always tells me every year they're like, you going to Baltimore? like, I want to, okay. Make me not go to New York so I can go to Baltimore. Yeah, and HeroesCon is the same way. If you love comics, those are the conventions to be at.

I'm really, I'm sort of jealous of you, everyone that's going to HeroesCon this year because Michael Alvarez is going to be there this year. And that's someone I'd really love. We had a show a of weeks ago, but I really want to meet him in person at some point. everyone that is going to Heroes, definitely check it. I think Michael, that's the only con he's doing all year. So, nice. Yeah. Well, would like to meet him as I learned about his past.

don't remember what he did and I don't remember what year it was, but he worked at the Air Force Academy long ago. And I want to say it might have been the time. was he did radio for the Air Force? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was a DJ of some sort. Yeah. That's right. The most interesting man in comics, everybody. You probably didn't gather that from my conversation with him and Matt for a couple of weeks ago.

But if you listen to him in any other interview, I like I could honestly just listen to him talk for an hour. If I said nothing, if I brought him onto the Oblivion bar, put a mic in front of him and said nothing, I would be told because he is just like fully. Like he's in that he loves Star Wars. I don't know if you know this.

I know you love Star Wars as well, but he will like he creates like these like full like authentic suits from Star Wars, like from scratch and like his original art collection is incredible. Anyway, this is not about Michael already. It's about you, Matt. Yeah. I want to ask one last thing before we before we get out of here. You know, it's sort of highlighted on your website. You know, you've written again for Marvel back in the day.

You've done a couple of side stories that you know, through Wolverine and astonishing tales. And was there an Avengers story in there as well, if I remember correctly? And you were even what was it? You did something with Jeff Johns. You were a got a technical advisor through Jeff Jobs when he was during on his Green Lantern run. Talk a little bit about that. I'm just curious, like, what was that like? And and how did you get in the door with Marvel at that time?

Sure, yeah, so I was in the military at the time. I was stationed in Las Vegas. I went to my local comic shop. I had no idea that there was gonna be a signing that day on that Wednesday. And you know, because I'm a Wednesday warrior. I'm always in, you know, that day to pick up my... That's right, absolutely, always. And Jeff Johns is there and he's doing a signing. And so I somehow strike up a conversation with him where it comes out about I'm stationed here, I'm in the Air Force.

He had just finished up the mini series with Green Lantern. It was getting ready to launch the ongoing with now the deceased Carlos Pacheco. And he had said, hey, know, Hal Jordan's Air Force, I would love to get the lingo right. Would you be willing to review the scripts and make sure that the, you know, the lingo is correct? So I said, yeah, of course. I had written prose at that point for years. And of course I had read and loved and collected, you know, comics for years.

And that was literally was the light bulb. Then I'm like, why am I not trying to write comics? And it heat so after reviewing scripts it really opened my eyes to the possibility. So I started looking at ways how can I Stand out or make a mark or be seen in a way that you can't if you're trying, know trying to break in At the time joke, you know, Jacob Joe quesada was the editor-in-chief at Marvel.

There was gonna be an auction This was in the Wizard world convention, you know, the wizard wizard con convention era And so it was Wizard LA, the convention, the hero's in it, the hero initiative, you know, which is a charity to help, you know, you know, older creators. who fall in a hard time. Very, very aware of here initiative and their great work. Yeah. So they are how I got my entry into comics. So I won an auction to have lunch with Joe and it was at that convention.

So I win the auction through the eBay auction. I go have lunch with him. At this time I was writing reviews for a comics review site and I was doing interviews and I asked Joe if I could interview him. He said yes. And I said, I'm also a writer. I'd be remiss if I didn't. take this opportunity to ask, know, would you be willing to let me pitch you a couple of stories? Of course, I'd already pre-built three stories.

And I'd heard the triangle, like I'd heard the triangle of, you you need two of three things. You need a big name creator, big character, big concept. You need two of those three. Well, I'm no name. So it's like, need big character, big concept. And so I, you know, all three of those were kind of with that. Don't pick a B, C, D list character. Pick an A list character. And so I pitched it, he liked one and then handed me off to an editor after he got back.

And that was my first sold comic ever was an Avenger story. And so, yeah, so it went from. Okay, so tell us a little bit about the Wolverine babysitting story then, because I was unable to find a copy of Wolverine 900, but I need to know a little bit more about this because it was like a part of an anthology. There's multiple stories in this Wolverine 900 and you're one of those stories. That's right.

Yeah. The nice thing was in that case, I had done a four issue web comic series called Devolution. It was a horror series with a different Filipino artist named Jake Bilbao, a black and white series. you ever did you ever see the movie Panic? sure, David Fincher, of course, yeah. Yes. So this was Panic Room with Zombies. Okay, I'm sold. You got me. Yeah. That's devolution is.

It was five zombies trapped in a house with a married couple and a strange married couple and they're in two different rooms. And there you go. Jared Leto in this one as well or do we? Right. Yeah. He's a zombie. So, so I had done this four issue series and I was pitching Jake to Marvel, you know, the artists I was pitching into Marvel. And then eventually they came to me and said, Hey, we want to do a story with Jake. And since he's, you know, you two have already worked together.

How about you write the story and you know, it's going to be a Wolverine story in an anthology. So that's when I started asking myself, what are, what's the core thing in my mind? For Marvel, not for the independence, but for Marvel and DC, there's a core center point in the wheel that's the theme of that character. With great power must also come a great responsibility. And then you're dancing around the wheel of that center point, trying to tell that same theme in different ways.

But it's a linear in independent comics. You can march forward and you can kill people, can, whatever. You can go off script. But for Wolverine, I was trying to think, what is that center point? beyond just, know, I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do isn't very nice. And I thought, what's something else that's at the center? Well, one of them is he quite often gets paired with someone young, you know, more than- or in the movies, I guess. Jubilee. Jubilee.

Yeah. So I'm like, okay, let's do, let's do a flip of the, of the, the words. I'm the best. There isn't what I do, but let's say I'm the worst. is what I'm doing and what I'm doing is trying to be nice. So, yeah. So I'm like that, I'm going to use that. And then I'm going to pair him up with somebody else, you know, a little girl who's lost and then see what is the story around that saying. And then that's when I came up with this story. Wow, that's awesome.

I am going to seek out issue, issue 900 of Wolverine now because I want to read this. And I think I it came out digitally as well. Is that correct? It was a part of a digital run for Marvel at one point. So I got to my hands on at some point. If you have a digital version of that book, Matt, you're going to send it to me after the conversation. Absolutely. Because I want to read it. But we're sort of nearing the end of our conversation here.

And I want to sort of end our great conversation that we've had thus far with sort of something that we often ask our guests, right, which is basically, you know, As nerds, always sort of looking for new content or we're loving something very much like for me right now, the studio through Apple TV plus is maybe my new favorite television series currently. But I want to ask you, like what's something that you've been enjoying recently? know, comic movie, television, podcast, whatever.

Yeah, let me give two. was a little less. Yeah, okay. The recent ones that I'm loving, you know, I've always loved when you go to panels and you see comics creators, the ones who actually can say, you know, they're asked the question, what comics do you like right now? And I love the creators who can say, I'm reading comics X or Y or Z. And it's so good. I love when I hear that. So, you know, I read, I don't know. one to three a day of something. I mean, it's every day.

One of us, one of, I'm gonna keep saying one of us. That's exactly right. So on the Marvel side, I do love the ultimate, you know, the ultimate line, particularly ultimate Spider-Man. I just read back to back to the last two issues just the other day. especially, I don't know, they're just, they're such an unbelievable pairing. It's nice to see Hickman do something that is both still grand.

And by that, mean, within the ultimate line, it's a whole new expansion of, you know, of a new universe and so on. but within an old one. And then with an artist, so it's inexpensive, but it's also still grounded. It does feel very intimate still, right? Like these conversations you're hearing between Harry and Peter and Peter and his family and Peter, you know, like it, I totally see what you're saying.

Like it is Marvel's biggest character, maybe the biggest character in comics in a brand new mythos. And yet it still feels kind of small in a way. Right, and then the episode, was like the Christmas episode where they have like a house party. The end of that literally gave me chills in a way I have not had in a long time to where I just had to look at it and go, how did he do this? I mean, I felt such unbelievable chills. That's on the Marvel side that I really, really love.

I do love the absolute stuff that DC is putting out. I loved Absolute Batman, but Absolute Wonder Woman has blown me away. And I wasn't expecting that. it's not, I didn't know what to expect. I actually wasn't, I didn't have high or low expectations. I was just kind of ready to receive it. And then it overwhelmed me. I'm like, this is truly next level storytelling. It's the same big, but with a very like human scale to it. These private moments that she'll have.

you know, with different characters along the way. And it's, goodness, I love that. I love the human moments above, amid an epic scale. Yes. always been. driven stories will win me over 10 times out of 10. Like you can tell a big funny story or a big crazy epic, awesome cosmic altering story. And I'll generally find some, you know, entertainment in that some, you know, some interest, but character driven stories.

It's part of the reason why I love Tom King so much is a lot of his stories are you're in the cerebellum of that character, whoever that character may be, you know? So I totally agree. And Kelly Thompson.

Continues to prove that she is just one of the best writers in comics like just bar none unquestionably again I was speaking on earlier about her Birds of Prey run But yes, I totally agree absolute Wonder Woman and again if Aaron was here He would he has this like he has always said he has this hard time latching on to Diana and her stories You know even through like George Perez and Greg Rucka and Brian Asarello and all of these

different books that are great I think but like he has a hard time latching and somehow Kelly Thompson and Hayden Sherman have found out a way to connect Aaron to that story. Yeah, same. So I've had the same exactly as him. I've had a hard time connecting to her for all the same runs. I've read all of them. And yet this I'm so deeply connected, you know, with her. So Kelly Thompson, complete, you know, just knocking it out of the park in ways that I just I'm just blown away. The second thing.

So that's kind of on the mainstream side. But the second one. So it's not as as immediate. But, know, there's a number of podcasts. I listen to you. They, know, David Harper on off panel. Adam Freeman on Comic Industry Indeciders and I don't know there's there's a couple more to come the Publishers Weekly, you know with a Heidi and team and So on David Harper's he had mentioned a manga series now my brother Richard and I you know, we loved Anime and manga before it was really what it is today.

Yeah, we were going to conventions and stuff like that And so we've got you know old old DVDs and you know a number of things that I inherited his collection, you know, after he after he passed. And then I got away from it. I never got away from comics, but I did from anime and manga. then but David Harper had mentioned this series, Pluto. And I finally broke down and got the first volume. It's it's one of the most astounding comics I've read literally my entire life.

And there's a chapter in, I want to say it's the third chapter or the fourth chapter in volume one. And, cause it's short episodes that make up each volume. There's an overarching story, but you know, it's got short chapters. And in this one, and I'm not giving it away, but there's a blind musician. He's a, so it's Naoki Urasawa and Osamu Tezuka. So it's a re-imagining of, shoot. Astro Boy Thank you. Of Astro Boy, thank you. Yeah, it's like a re-imagined Astro Boy.

But the third or fourth chapter, there's a character who's a blind musician. He did musical scores for like films and stuff like that. And then his interactions with this one robot. In that chapter, this is what I tell people, if this chapter does not break your heart, then you have no heart. It is so astounding. Yeah. the way they will think of beats to hold with no dialogue to generate emotion. And so it's both the execution of it, but then there's a personal connection for me.

I'll try to not get emotional, but you know, with my brother, you know, we shared this, we shared a love of this when anime and manga were not super popular. So we were already in a minority community of, you know, geekdom in a time that, you know, long before that. And yet this was even a minority element within the world of geekdom. You know, those who actually appreciated and loved this. And when I read this, you know, it's like, I can't share this with him.

And it's so unbelievable, but I can share our story, which I know is not in this level. But it's something that came from his imagination. And now I get to hand it to his kids. Anyway, I'm sorry. No, I do not. I'm sorry. Honestly, Matt, so grateful that you're willing to just even share. Right. And be that vulnerable to write like that is extremely admirable. And it's a rare thing that we get here on the show, because a lot of times we're doing a lot of dumb shit.

And it's you know, the oblivion bar is like Aaron and I's sandbox. We just sort of talk about all the dumb crap. So when we can have someone like you here who is promoting something that's very special and, know, and so well done as well that I think that that is it's worth. you know, sticking around on that. Like there's no point in trying to avoid any of that. So I appreciate you doing that. And if I can very terribly transition, I would love to share.

I'm sort of new into the manga verse myself. Like Aaron, again, if he was here, he would say he's been into it as long as you guys have like you and your brother. It was he's an old school manga anime guy. And I have to show you. So sight unseen. I went to Barnes and Noble and I just looked at their incredible selection of manga and I found this which I've shared on the show Okay. It's called Freerun Beyond Hero's Journey. Are you familiar with this? I highly recommend it. It's incredible.

It's basically about an elf girl who basically joins a team of it's like a think of like a Final Fantasy RPG team. Right. And OK. And she outlives everybody. And the story is about how she has to sort of reconcile with the fact that she doesn't connect with anyone because she already knows that she's going to outlive. them, their kids, their kids' kids. And where we pick up with Free Rent in her story, she's sort of coming to grips with that. She's lived hundreds of years before that.

She will live hundreds of years afterwards. But it's where she starts to turn the corner and she starts to really connect with the people around her. And it's really special. And it's got a lot of great action. The art is incredible. I can't recommend it enough. I'm so happy that of all of the manga in the world that I could have randomly selected off of the shelf. And I really just picked it up because of the cover, because it looks like an RP like a classic RPG Final Fantasy cover. Right.

Yeah. And it blew me away immediately. So highly recommend that one. And then I haven't read this, but you've probably heard of it. I picked it up. Side unseen. I remember someone telling me somewhere that this was a good book, but we've got gunsmith cat gunsmiths. Yes. You familiar with this? Yeah. Again, side unseen. But I was at my local comic book shop the other day and I saw it. I like the cover art. I saw the dark horse was distributing it and I was like, enough, I will buy it.

So those are my two unsolicited manga recommendations along with yours, Matt. There's more material than we have time. That's a good thing. I'm okay with that. I've always said I have like over 1700 comics, manga, all the things. I will never get through all of it. Like I've read probably about 85 % of it, but I, if I wanted to go through and read it all again, I wouldn't, if I had nothing else to do in my life, it would take me years to try to do that. Right.

Well, You know, if you truly use the word library, we were a family of librarians in my family. We all grew up working at the local library. But if you use the term like, this is my library, think about your actual public library. You haven't read every book in the library, right? It's just a large repository that you can select from. So your personal library, we should treat it the same. It's a large repository that I always have material in there that I can select from.

Yeah. And I've heard that over 1200 books is an act like it's, it's called a library. Anything over 1200 in a collection is considered a library. that's like a weird anecdote that I like to tell people like, I have a library because I have around 1700 books. But Matt, gosh, what a pleasure it was having you here on the show today. Just so much.

You know, I thank you so much for sharing everything that you have, everything about closet world, just your career, both in the military and in comics and just, know, it was great talking to you. And I'd love to get you back on at some point for whatever reason, doesn't matter whether you have something to promote or not, but I'd love to sort of pass it off to you one last time before we let you go.

You know, how can people, how can the listeners follow both your career and just everything else you have going on post this conversation? Yes, so a couple ways. I do have a personal website, Matt Yocum dot com. And that's, you know, M-A-T-T-Y-O-C-U-M dot com. That's where I keep, you know, up to date on certain things. I did get the site Closet World Comic dot com. And so eventually when I get the copies, I will be selling them now that the Kickstarter has ended.

So people cannot get to get it through that. But once it's in my hand, I'll be selling those, you know, through through that site as well. I do have a section on the matyokum.com. And then the how to comic with Yokum and Fom, that's on the Yokum and Fom sub stack. And Koi Fom, again, he's a long time artist that I'm partnered with on a host of different things. And that's spelled P-H-A-M. So YokumandFom.substack.com.

And that's where we put our web comic, we do announcements on upcoming conventions that we're doing. Anytime we go together, we have a panel called Overcoming Obstacles, just obstacles that you've had in life as you're trying to live the life as a creator. And then that's where we also post our actual podcast, which is called How to Comic with Jokum and Fom. And so we put links on there and of course it's on Apple and all that stuff. So that's how you can reach me.

Awesome. Well, again, Matt, thank you again. know, next time that you will get you on the show for whatever reason, I'm going to make sure I'm going to make Aaron be here because he has to meet you at some point. I'm going to make sure of it. Absolutely, yeah. If not here, then hopefully at a convention somewhere in person. absolutely. Whatever say. Well, Matt, thank you. we will talk to you next time that you're on the show. Sounds good, thanks Chris.