INTERVIEW: Christopher Cantwell & Tyler Crook

Hey, this is Chris Cantwell. We are the creative team of the mystery thriller Out of Alcatraz from Oni Press. and you are listening to the Oblivion Bar podcast. Welcome to the Oblivion Bar podcast with your host Chris Hacker and Aaron Knowles. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 181 of the Oblivion Bar podcast. I am Chris Hacker, one of your co-hosts here on the Oblivion Bar. I am solo this week. We have no Aaron Knowles. I know you guys are all so disappointed to hear that.

My BFF and co-host will be back next week, but I wanted to bring everybody in for this conversation with the creative team about of Alcatraz number one and the entire series over Oni Press writer Christopher Cantwell and illustrator Tyler Crook. Now. I was very excited to get both these gentlemen on to talk about this series that I've already had the chance to read the first issue for. That first issue actually comes out on March 19th. And that's quite a bit of ways, obviously.

We're only in February, but FOC for that series is on February 24th. So this gives everyone an opportunity as you're listening to this conversation with both Chris and Tyler to go ahead and pre-order that book. I say it in the conversation here and I want to just reiterate it. here right at the top of the conversation before we get into it, that this is a book that you want to support. This is a book that you want to preorder. This feels really special.

And I think you'll get some of that in this conversation. But I want to say right at the top that, and I sort of poke fun at this during the conversation that when I was talking to Aaron about out of Alcatraz and getting to read that first issue, I immediately was like, this is my favorite book of the year. Now, granted we are only in February, but It sort of has that gloss of weight and importance that I think people should know about. Like this is a book.

This is a book that I feel like I could give someone, you know, either after it's finished or even before it's finished and tell them this is why comics are awesome. This is another example of this is why comics are great. And it was such an honor to talk to both Chris and Tyler about it. I've been a fan of both of theirs, both individually before the series. Chris is, you know, the writer of she could fly. There's a Dr. Doom series that I really love that we talk about during this conversation.

He obviously has done the United States of Captain America. He did the reboot of the mask with Patrick Reynolds, good friend of the show. And obviously he's also worked on more recently the plastic man no more series that people are really enjoying. And then of course, Tyler Crook, Harrow County, DPRD, the stone king, Petrograph, the Lonesome Hunters. All of these are, I'm not shy about this. If you follow us over on social media.

Or if you just know me personally, you know that I'm a giant Tyler Crook fan. We had him on the show last year to promote the Lonesome Hunters, the Wolf Child. And I was familiar with his work and I liked Tarot County quite a bit, but it was when the Lonesome Hunters came out is where I really started to become a hardcore Tyler Crook stan. And again, I know I've said it multiple times already in the intro.

You know, I spend my wheels a lot when I'm here by myself because I don't have Aaron to bounce off of, but I'm such a huge fan of these guys and I cannot. boasts enough about this series out of Alcatraz from Oni Press. And again, we talk about it in the conversation, but I want to say and sort of reiterate here, Oni Press, wow. They're teasing these series throughout 2025. That's just, it's insane. That's like they're sort of reforming, reshaping their identity as a publisher.

Now, again, they are obviously known for publishing Scott Pilgrim and they have put out a lot of great series throughout the years, but you've got free for all. the new Patrick Horvath series that has covers from Junie Ba and Matt Lesniewski and Matt Kent. it's just, and Dave Stewart, like that right there would have been enough. And obviously along with Al of Alcatraz to get me on board.

But of course the stuff they're doing with EC comics, which, know, slight tease here, Tyler talks about how he, not only did he do a story with Matthew Rosenberg, but he also wrote and drew a story of his own in the next issue. But you've also got Justin Jordan and Chris Sheehan's Hunt Mine, A Long Lonesome Grave that's coming out later this year. You also have Chris Condon and Sean Canaro's The Goddamn Tragedy that's coming out later this year. my gosh, I mean, there's just so many.

There's also The Power Lords that's coming out from Dennis Culver and Matt Hodson. There's just like so many things that Oni Press is about to put out here in this brand new comic year that makes you really excited. Now I wanna preface this conversation with both Chris and Tyler that as soon as we hop on the line here, we immediately get into We sort of talk a little bit about the political landscape.

And I know this is a, I hope that this is an outlet for folks to sort of step away from the normal NPR news overload where it's just bad news after bad news, because that's currently where we are in this political landscape. You've got the president and his administration just wholesale destroying whole departments. it's wild. And again, I don't want to get into that even here now. But it's important, I think, not only because we should have these things on the front of our mind.

You know, I'm not immune to any of that, but I think, again, it's not only just important for the conversation, but it's also important to contextualize what is going on in Alcatraz. Again, this is taking place in 1962 where the civil rights movement is sort of ramping up and we're almost entering a new era of America.

And ironically enough, again, your thoughts on the current landscape of the United States may vary, but it almost feels like we're leaving what we were entering in 1962 in a certain capacity. And know, again, I don't know a ton about the escapes of Alcatraz and all the details. So I had a really great time with out of Alcatraz, number one, because Chris and Tyler really play with that mythology on like an expert level. So I can't boast enough about it.

I'm just going to shut up and I'm going let us get to this conversation with both Chris and Tyler. But first really quickly, shameless plug. If you want to support the oblivion bar podcast, if you enjoy common book podcast, please consider supporting the show over on patreon.com forward slash oblivion bar pod. You're not only helping support the show cause we put all that money back into the show, but also you're getting a little something as well.

Aaron and I, like to put on a weekly bonus podcast called the grid 30 to 40 to sometimes 50 minutes of extra content where we sort of talk about what we generally wouldn't talk about here on the normal show. Last week on the grid, talked about the brand new Fantastic Four trailer, the Fantastic Four first steps that took the world by storm. led us a little bit of a preve and then they immediately released a bunch of AI posters. So, you know, that'll happen.

And we also sort of gauge our excitement of Captain America Brave New World, which comes out the week that you're listening to this. So that's what you can get over on Patreon. You can also get episode transcripts. You get access to see how we prepare for the show. You get Patreon polls, question threads for the creators that we have on the show. We give you... an opportunity to ask the creators questions. All of that is over on Patreon. Again, there's multiple tiers.

You can try it out for free. There's a seven day free trial, all those cool things. once again, patreon.com forward slash at building bar pod. can either go there or check out the link in the show notes, whatever. But again, enough of that. I'm so excited to bring this conversation you guys let's go ahead and get this conversation with both Christopher Cantwell and Tyler Crook.

And now, this week's special guest. Joining me today is the creative team of the upcoming mystery thriller Out of Alcatraz from Oni Press. One is the co-creator of the critically acclaimed AMC series Halt and Catch Fire. He's also the writer of series like She Could Fly, Briar, the United States of Captain America, The Mask, The Pledge of Allegiance to the Mask, Plastic Man No More, and the Eiser nominated Dr. Doom series.

The other is also Eiser nominated and he's also the creator behind Harrow County, BPRD, The Stone King, and The Lonesome Hunters. It is my pleasure to welcome both Christopher Cantwell and Tyler Crook onto the Oblivion Bar podcast. Hey, thank you! Hello! You guys sound lively and that's good. It's been, I'm so happy you're here first. I should say that before I get into the madness that we're currently living.

you know, before we get that out of Alcatraz, I found out recently, Chris, that you're no longer on social media. Congratulations on that. I am. I yeah, Tyler, I'm sorry. I know we're about to promote a book. Let me know. It was just like, good joke. I just did it, man. It was. I'm so glad that you did. I honestly wish I could do that. I envy you in that sense. My therapist says that it was probably equally like a self-destructive isolating move and then also probably a very healthy move.

So it's like a dialectic. You know what I mean? Like both are true. We're all kind of prone to some of those actions, but we are roughly 37 days into 2025 and it feels like it's been about 18 months. So, Chris, you've kind of gotten into it a little bit. How are you guys doing mentally? How's things? Man, it's yeah, it's rough.

Like, I love my country and, and I don't feel like the country that I was born in is going to, is going to make it, you know, it's, yeah, it's really stressful time and I don't quite know what to do. You know, I'm doing my, my bit to call my reps and I'm involved in, you know, my local politics stuff. And that seems to be about all I can do. Yeah. Chris, how about you? I live in Los Angeles, and I actually just moved back to Los Angeles on December 30th of last year.

We'd lived in a town called Claremont, which is a college town about 30, 40 miles east towards the mountains. We lived at a boarding school there and we finally made the move back to LA and we moved to a little... neighborhood called Highland Park and we're literally my street is the border of Pasadena. And so a weekend, you could see the weekend to our arrival, you could see the eaten fire from our front porch. and so it was horrendous.

And, I mean, I, and I can't even, that's even seems like a, it's an understatement of a word for this experience out here, but, yeah, there's just the list of. people I know and love and care about, worked with over the last 25 years in LA, the LA County area who have lost everything or been displaced or are suffering in some other ways. It's terrible. And that actually is one of the reasons why I hit the ejector seat on the socials.

I had pulled back a lot and I was only on Blue Sky, the supposed better version of what came before. But, you know, that week leading up to the fires, there was all this stuff with Instagram. And Tyler, you kind of clued me in on this to actually attribute some of the Instagram stuff to you because you were really concerned about the AI training. And I think we'd even communicated about because my account has always been private on Instagram. It's only it's only for friends and family.

And I share pictures of my kids. But I pretty much it was like, oh, they're still even though it's private. They're using pictures of my kids to train their AI algorithms and then our buddy Marky Z coming out and saying some really ugly shit. They're feeling empowered to do so. And so I was like, okay, that part and parcel with trying to support people who lost everything on Blue Sky and getting enough attention that it was getting, I don't know, I can't wrap my head around it guys.

Like it's just like attention that was so negative and mean and cruel. from all sides of everything, that I was like, okay, I'm talking about friends who have lost their homes and here are strangers being ad hominem towards them and me. And I was like, I don't need it. And so I'll just hide behind my work and disappear and keep my life small. And then yeah, and then you look to the national level and just. every five minutes.

It's funny, I'm not on social media, so I can't doom scroll, but I can certainly, I can still read the news and that alone feels like doom scrolling. I mean, I had like a, I had an anxiety dream about the valves opening in Northern California, you know, and the flooding farms and how in the summer it's gonna be dry. Anyway, it's a scary time. I'm really, the mantra for me is I'm trying to keep my world and my life small and focus on my kids and my wife and.

my work and do what I can where I can where it makes sense. Yeah. But boy, what a yes. It definitely feels like we're at point where, like, at least I feel like there's a lot of people who sort of becoming very, like, painfully cognizant of how our online lives are not providing what we need from them. Yes, it just feels like a kind of illusory. And it's funny, I worked in this before I was a screenwriter and I worked in early social media marketing stuff.

And this was the earliest days of Facebook. And but I was off of that. I mean, I have more than 10 years ago because I could see the writing on the wall. And you just kind of retreat, retreat, retreat, because it's I don't know. It doesn't it doesn't give you. You're right. I actually I had jury duty in Pasadena. last week and I ended up on a trial and, it was a, not a fun experience, but I was actually, I was actually really heartened by the people that were there.

It was in a kind of beautiful cross-section of people from Pasadena and the LA area, old, young, all races, creeds, colors. And the attorneys were really impressive and human. The judge was very impressive and human. There was, it was a criminal case and as a man's You know, you're dealing with a person's future, it it was hard and you saw the flaws in the system and how tragic they can be.

And then also I was, it gave me, it was the, it was a thing that I wasn't expecting to restore my faith in humanity, but I really feel like those jurors and the people in that courtroom were really decent, upstanding, thoughtful, insightful people all in their own way. You know, and they were delivery drivers and forensic psychologists and radiologists and working at grocery stores and this is their home and it was on fire. It was actually kind of a complex experience, I'll put it that way.

But a one that was, again, another dialectic of like, this is awful. And then also like, these people are wearing this together. I don't know. Isn't that interesting, right? Like that's kind of, that's sort of what we're missing. think, Tyler, you were sort of alluding to this too, is that like when we're around a person, we see the similarities. We look for that connection.

We understand that we're all more similar than different, but it seems like as soon as we're either behind a screen or in a group of people, that's when folks start to lose their minds. And I don't know if it was George Carlin that said this, maybe I'm misquoting here, but he's like, I like a person, but I hate people. You know, and I think we're starting to get there closer now. It seems closer to that point.

And I, you know, to speak on what you're saying there, Chris, it's like, you know, I got rid of Facebook. I got rid of Twitter pretty quickly. Both of those were easy. X. That's no problems. Threads. Same Instagram. It's it's a little tougher, right? Like, It's like a photo album of your life, right?

But then I started to realize that I'm pretty sure whatever Tyler was seeing or my friends and family were seeing, because Tyler and I were connected, like the algorithm isn't serving you my kid's trip to Death Valley. It's serving you some rando. And I wasn't seeing my wife post. He wasn't seeing my own post. We're posting the kids. And it's like. Well, shit, I'm just going to take these pictures of the kids.

I'm going send them to you and then our parents and Tyler, I will give you I'm going to mail you a thumb drive of the last two months of pictures of my children. It's just 400. Secret house. All right, well, think we've got it. Well, Tyler, don't know. I'm sorry. Did you want to add something? Yeah, you know, I guess I was just wanting to add a little bit.

Like I said, I've been trying to get more and more involved in my local politics and I live in a rural Oregon and there's not like, you know, it's very easy to actually be involved in that. And I'm always sort of shocked and heartened by every time I go to, you know, a city hall meeting or a county meeting or anything, it's like, it feels like amateur hour. And you really get the feeling that it's like, these are your neighbors trying to do the best that they can.

And they're clearly a few bad actors around who are so internet brained with their conspiracy theories that they cause a lot of problems. But there's also just tons of normal people who are trying to help their neighbors get through the day. And it's good to be able to be there and cheerlead the folks that are doing good. The envy is it's crazy over here guys, because I'm in Indiana and we are about as red as it gets and I hate it.

I literally moved from Missouri to Indiana and talk about, know, if you go to back to 2016 and then this last year, talk about the two states that were the first ones to confirm red. Oh, it just it pains me and I cannot wait to eventually leave this place. But as you guys were saying, this is where family is. This is home. I'm from here. Yeah, there's lots of people you love there and there are lots of great people there in both those places.

Yeah. I mean, have a family in Missouri and I had, you know, like, I have a lot of family in Illinois, which is blue, right? But it's it's it was like southern Illinois right on the court. It doesn't matter. Right. Like I my neighbors in Claremont, you know, it's a college town. So you you'd have really ardent academic blue near the colleges. And then as soon as you go out, it's it's firefighters who voted the other way, you know, but but they're also then up on Mount Baldy fighting those fires.

And then it's such a weird time, guys. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's very, very difficult to sort of navigate our current time. Yeah. Well, I'm going to try to sort of dig ourselves out of here because as much as I honestly for the next 50 minutes, I would absolutely love to just sort of pick your guys's brains on what 2025 is and sort of, you know, how to navigate it. And like maybe we could brainstorm on this whole thing. That feels like a dark wilderness trek.

Yeah, yeah Well, but I think our time honestly could be better well spent here on the show talking about your guys' new series, which is out of Alcatraz through only press. listeners should be expecting that at their local comic book shop on March 19th. I'm going to give a brief synopsis just for the layman. 1962 in June, Frank Morris and Clarence Aglin, sorry, Aglin, is that correct? Anglin. Anglin, thank you.

Clarence Anglin have escaped Alcatraz and survived the treacherous waters of the San Francisco Bay. Now on the run, they're guided by a mysterious handler with secrets of her own, with a relentless federal manhunt closing in, and danger at every turn, they'll soon learn that life on the run might not be even worse than Alcatraz itself. So Chris, I'd love to start with you here.

I've heard you talk about sort of your fascination with 1962, the Alcatraz event in 1962, and the mystery surrounding that escape, and how the government's or sorry, how the government sort of attempted to cover up these events and then actually backfired. And people started to get more curious. for you, when did this fascination begin? And are there specific moments from history that you knew you wanted to include in this interpretation of the story?

Well, so, I would say that it's a in terms of the government case, like it's a little there's a little bit more nuance to it. And it's it's I'll go. But I'll reel it all the way back to. So you read She Could Fly, my first comic, which. Yes, I love that man. But it's about the main character has a pretty profound OCD type of OCD that I actually have as well. OCD, particularly that type of OCD. And OCD kind of geared brain craves certainty.

And so my brain, from a young age, I would find myself ruminating on things in history where there was no certainty in terms of what happened. And that led me down. from Dallas. I grew up in Dallas. was born in Chicago, but I grew up in Dallas. So JFK assassination was a big thing. And it just kind of a rabbit hole. And I've actually done a comic series about that as well. Kate, what's similar between that and Alcatraz where there's also no answers, right? Which is they were never found.

The government story is they drowned all three of them, right? It's the Anglin brothers and Frank. There was a fourth Alan West who didn't get off. He couldn't get out of his cell. He glued his thing too tight, his grate too tight. So he couldn't get out of there. But that report that they drowned is based on hearsay from, believe a Chinese freighter coming into the bay who said they saw a body. on their way in and they found John Englund's wallet. But the wallet, the wallet was not recovered.

They never verified the story with the freighter. They never recovered that body. So they were like, they drowned. it's literally, I just told it, I just talked about jury duty. That's hearsay. It's not even evidence, right? It's like, well, and so, you that's, you're in 62, you're still with like Hoover's FBI, right? You know, there's a shadow looming large over that. And that place, Alcatraz was built to be escape proof. That was the federal story. It's a federal prison, right?

It's not a state prison. So it's a federal prison and it's meant to be state of the art and escape proof. Most of the people who ended up at Alcatraz, other than a couple of the big ticket folks like Capone and places like that, they were transferred there. They weren't sentenced to Alcatraz. They were transferred to Alcatraz because they'd already escaped from other facilities, right? And Frank Morris had already escaped from prison. The Anglin brothers had already escaped from prison.

And so the idea was Alcatraz was a place you could not escape from because geographically that's the thing. And then lo and behold, three guys get off and they can't find them. And so the government is hard pressed to go, we don't know. And then California freaks out and there are fugitives on the loose and all of this. They had to say, no, this is our facility. And it's impervious. Right. You can't get off of it. And, you know, that story, actually, it didn't work.

It didn't quite work because I think It closed the following year, right? So I don't think it was directly due to the escape or attempted escape or whatever actually happened, but they just couldn't keep that place running. It was too expensive and that narrative, it was just hard to sell at a certain point when you have three missing guys that you never know what happened to them, even though they say they drowned.

You know, it's interesting is I didn't know a lot about sort of this moment in history. You know, I'm obviously somewhat familiar just based on culture and whatnot. But what was really refreshing about reading this first issue about out of Alcatraz is that, you know, I didn't know the names. I wasn't familiar with sort of the happenings or even the legends of what might have happened to these three guys. And again, I just found that so refreshing.

And I think without spoiling anything, you know, this first issue, it feels so grounded and based on reality. And Tyler, I'd love to kind of go to you here. What I think you do so well, and part of the reason why I'm such a huge fan of your work is that your style sort of lends itself to otherworldly mythology, magic, horror, but it's like sort of, it's all grounded in reality. Think of Lonesome Hunters, think of Harrow County. All these are like, I feel like it expresses that so well.

So what was it about this story that enticed you to jump on board and how familiar were you to these mysteries beforehand? Well, think the two things that really attracted me to this initially when Chris and Bess brought me the story pitch was that I loved that it was such a great setting. Just the time and place was just so exciting. Like I always I really like period pieces. My very first comic was Petrograd, which was set in Russia during the revolution or just before the revolution.

And Harrow County was set in the 30s. Witchfinder was set in Victorian England. It's like all these like really strong settings. And I felt like Alcatraz had that too, where it was just the really, really evocative time and place. And the other thing was just like the structure of the story about everyone trying to get free really resonated with me. Yeah. Chris, I think I heard somewhere in another conversation that this was originally a series pitch, right? Is that correct?

This is the only time I've ever done this. But yeah, I actually in 2018, 2019, I wrote this as a pilot for a limited series, an original limited series. And I took it out to a couple of places, but I really just wrote it for me because I was coming off of something that would have been the follow up to Halt and Catch Fire. And it almost got off the ground and then didn't. And so there was a little bit of dismay. And can I still do this? And do I still like this?

doing this, meaning just screenwriting. And I wrote this pilot based on something I very much was obsessed with for a long time. And so, yeah, it kind of sat there on my hard drive for years. And then when I met with Oni at Comic-Con in 2022, I just started talking about it with Bess and Sierra and Hunter, and they were really interested. it's a lot to ask someone, especially in comics, to read. a 60 page pilot. But it was like, I don't know. they did.

And they, Bess was really insightful and they kind of pulled it apart and really saw what I was trying to do there. And then Bess immediately thought of Tyler. And we asked Tyler to read a 60 page screenplay. And he did. And he liked it. But yeah, it's the only time I've kind of adapted myself in that direction. Because I usually like to try to do comics for their own sake. I went down the road a little bit with an adaptation of She Could Fly, but it was very different than this process.

yeah, it was a weird one. in looking at what I think, especially with what Tyler's done, don't know. I feel like if we just photograph this and again, not to that sounds like I'm degrading amazing directors of photography out there, but just to phone it, you set up Tyler's on a high visual bar for this. As he does with most stories. We're gonna brag on Tyler really quick. Why is he looking at us?

I think that I've even shared this with a couple of producers because you know that's whatever the comic book companies want like to do and and again like we would both be excited but everyone the people I've responded to the work with some pretty great people have gone wow I don't we have to we would have to figure out how to this art is phenomenal and we want to we have to figure out how to to meet that standard that's been said to me a couple times so it's I'm glad it's a book

Isn't that interesting though? feel like that's sort of an extremely difficult, if not completely impossible venture to faithfully adapt a comic and expect to get the tone more than 80 % there. Like, I don't know why my brain went here, but I know they're doing the Supergirl Woman of Tomorrow story that's based off Tom King and Belkis Evilly. How in the hell do you plan on trying to like come anywhere close to Belkis and her work in that book? Like that's just one example.

The only thing I feel like that's respectful to do to both versions of a project when you do something like that is to just really stake a unique claim in that medium the way you have in the previous, right? And so I feel like I hope they do that, right? And I, you know, there's some pretty great people there. But yeah, you look at what Bill gets to. How you even approach that? We're a little bit in the same vein.

Yeah. It's funny though, because I feel like my approach to Alcatraz in particular is probably the thing that is most influenced by movies and TV than anything else I've ever worked on. I really am trying to frame moments and characters in ways that are evocative of the coolest movies of the 60s and 70s and stuff. Yeah, that's true. I'm getting really strong. No country for old men vibes. Is that am I accurate in that or is that feel good?

I was thinking a little bit today that like one of the things I keep thinking about is actually Wild at Heart, which doesn't I don't think really comes across in the book, but like just how some of those settings, especially some of the desert settings like the where Isabella Rossellini's her little like shack out in the desert is just like like that has such a great vibe. You mentioned, Tyler, you mentioned HUD as a kind of character inspiration for one of the characters.

And I was thinking about that made me think about like Giant, the James Dean movie and how there's something like there's it's like I feel like anything we do, you'd have to get those like David Lean lenses on it and really open it up. You know what I mean? And then get really and then kind of use the same technique to get into these people's faces. I don't know. That could be cool. But I don't know.

What I think this is probably a good transition also to talk kind of a little bit more broadly about only press like what is in the water over only currently they they're putting out these these news, you know, posts about a series of Patrick Horvath. There's a obviously they've been doing a lot of the easy stuff. This is a good example.

You know, like they have been really hitting on the head in terms of like new interesting fresh ideas over there, which is interesting because for a long time and I mean this respectfully, if anybody's listening best. anybody that's listening to the show from Oni. I love the publisher, but it's always sort of just been like the home to Scott Pilgrim and then like some fun books here and there, right? But like, it feels like they're really making a point to have an identity going into 2025.

And I find that really refreshing. And I'm also on another, like sort of selfishly, cause I'm here with you guys right now out of Alcatraz, what a way to sort of open up the year too with it, right? I hope so, yeah. In the creator space, the creator-owned space, there's no better place to be right now than Oni. The bench of talent on the editorial side and even the marketing side and the way that they're carefully shepherding this book out into the world and their plans and strategies.

From Hunter on down and Sierra and Bess, it's just... They just brought over... I can't say that yet. don't know if it's good enough. I'm saying I almost got in trouble. They brought over another editor that's one of I've worked with. That's one of my personally one of my favorite editors that just has a really great head for story. Best is incredible as an editor. Just just sees the whole picture. It's a it's a crack team. Crack team.

Yeah, and they really feel like they're doing a great job considering just like the complete meltdown of social media. Like it really feels like they're sort of like navigating it in a way where they they really understand that social media is like not what it was, you know, four or five years ago, which a lot of which a lot of publishers I don't think are quite are quite there yet, you know. Agreed. Yeah. They're not quite privy to how to approach that. They're still posting on Facebook, right?

It's like, what are you doing? Like my mom is looking at memes on there right now. There's no need to promote your new book. mom's looking at Shrimp Jesus and... An AI generated good morning posts. But I will say that to get back a little bit out of Alcatraz, the tagline for the book, which I found really interesting, it resonated with me for a quick moment was freedom is just another prison. Speaking of Oni and the marketing of the book, again, that really stuck with me.

The idea of freedom versus captivity in this first issue and does anyone really escape without spoiling anything? It remains sort of a major theme throughout this 48 page giant issue. So here's a super loaded, very easy question to ask you guys here. Do you plan on tackling that question of what does freedom mean? Or in the context of the story, are you just kind of more interested in asking the question? And Tyler, I'll start with you here. You should really start with Chris. Oh boy. No, we do.

mean, think freedom, the theme of freedom is really important throughout the book and you brought up the time period and events. We don't touch anything else as a historical watershed other than the escape. But what's interesting about 62 is in a year the president will be assassinated.

Civil rights is already starting to kind of its head, right, and become... at the fore of American consciousness, Vietnam is about to kick off, you know, and then you're headed into, I mean, at the same time, culturally, you're looking at the 1962 California is very different from 1969 California, especially in the San Francisco area, right? Like, and we have two closeted characters in this book that are living in the 1962 California, right?

Which is still a San Francisco built by, the 1849ers and the gold rush and saloons and shipping and a kind of Western vibe to it, right? And then you have the farmlands throughout the central part of California that were from Steinbeck on, you know, are still there. We haven't gotten full Chinatown yet. No, the Owens River Valley still has this water or no, no, it lost this water like years ago. No, that's not that's not right, actually. Yeah, because Chinatown is like twenty nine years.

Yeah, yeah, no, yeah. Owens River Valley has already been. Yeah. Mulholland's already destroyed the southern part of the state. But yeah, that idea of like and also California is this place where like you just keep going until you stop and there's nowhere else to go. I think it really is this. It's a hinge point in the American idea, right, to tie it back to the beginning of our conversation. And this idea of freedom in America is a very potent one.

It's at the fore of a lot of things in trite ways and then also in profound ways and in complex and subversive ways, right, because of the country's history when it comes to slavery and the things that it was built on and these other ideas that, and the displacement of indigenous people, all of these things that I said dialectic at the beginning, I'm just gonna keep on moving back to that world. Like these kind of opposing truths that live side by side, right?

Like, and our prison system is another kind of example of this where it's like, and it's rehabilitative qualities. So it's like, so we have this kind of America on the cusp in 62, and it's about to go, it's about to do a massive introspection that's violent and radical and tumultuous that lasts until Reagan, right? When and then it goes, reel it back in, everybody. Never mind. Right. And the Penjo and the Swoogles. plan right now, actually. Exactly. you go.

Reagan says, Reagan says, make America great again. says city on a hill, which is a puritanical idea. And but we're we're we're in the postwar. We won setting, but that's it's kind of that's kind of starting to fall apart. And so you have these characters that are all representative of of American people who are trying to be free, whether they're prisoners or they're African-American or they're homosexual. Or they're just trying to get by. trying to survive, right?

And so you see people who are divided in a place that's divided, even though it is also a place where people, all they have is each other, right? And California is this paradise. I do believe that it has some of these qualities and promise and wonder. And yet it's built on the backs of a lot of hard things. I mentioned Mulholland and that's just one thing. There's a lot. It's all at play in there. And then you get into more universal ideas, right?

It's not, listen, the book is not a polemic against anything. I really don't think that. think someone in a different country could pick this up and it would resonate with them because it also deals with like, can you ever be free of yourself and your own baggage, right? There's a famous saying that wherever you go, you take yourself with you. You know what I mean? Like, so Frank Morris can't escape himself. You know what I mean? Like the Anglins can't do that either.

Like none of the characters can, you know, just like we can't. So there's an acceptance that has to come with some of this stuff and this idea of what liberation can mean in different ways. anyway, that's my long winded answer. I think one of the things that manifests in the characters in different ways, but one of the things about it that I think the story explores is that freedom is responsibility in a lot of ways.

It's like once you're free, you have a responsibility to either protect that freedom or take responsibility for your own actions in ways that a lot of the characters are struggling with. It's not one of those stories where it's like it's going to get to the end and like some character will say to the other character, you know, freedom is what's in your heart or anything like that. You know what I mean?

But like hopefully the reader will come away with some actually understanding of what they want to think about freedom. Tyler, in the lettering pass on the fifth issue though, I actually, was going to change one of the lines to that though, just to. Yeah. We all have freedom and freedom is half the battle.

No, and I think a really great representation of what you guys are sort of speaking on here and sort of sort of blurred line of freedom is Tyler, you have an incredible page in this book and this first issue where you've got Alan being interrogated. Where are these two guys at? Where are these two guys at? And you have you have our two titular main characters and a Clementine field enjoying a couple fruit people, a couple pieces of fruit. Like, come on that like.

I know again, as we just spoke about it, sort of the line between freedom and captivity, where is it? What does it mean to be free? All that. think in that moment, and Chris, you sort of talked about this a little bit at the beginning of our conversation about like, you got to have small moments, right? Like we need to stop thinking so broadly when you start living and thinking about like small achievements, small moments.

This was that, this is that small moment where they got to sort of embellish in that a little bit. You're right. I think that's a good way, with all the grandiosity I just spewed at you, think that it's a small story about different groups, at least pockets of people trying to get by. And we tried to build in a lot of those little small moments. It's funny to bring this up, because Tyler, just remembered that you hate this guy. And sorry, I don't mean to put you on the spot, but Jack Kerouac.

But here's my read on Kerouac, which is that like they're always they're either when they're in the middle of a moment that is this kind of electric moment, they're thinking about something they should have done 40 miles back. Right. Or the woman they should be with or this or where's what? Why did my dad leave? Or they're thinking about, man, it's going to be great when we get to Denver. And then they get to Denver and it's like, this sucks. Right.

There's no living and they're they're constantly grappling with that, which is like it feels It makes so much sense that Jack Kerouac went into Zen, which is about being present in the now because he was really struggling with that his entire life. And like I think our characters are too. But there are these little moments like like you talked about the orange or there's the moment where Frank gets to take a private shower.

And it's just one panel that Tyler did or like Clarence goes into a little drugstore and looks at all the toys and candy. You know, like it's little things like that that you go like, You know, it washes over you as it washes over them. And then, boom, it's back to, we got to move, we got to do this. What about this? Or we're going to get screwed over here, and this guy doesn't care, and who am I? And all that existential stuff. So yeah, it cuts through in those moments.

And I think we tried to do that a couple of times with the characters through the book. think you do. And again, I said this to my cohost Aaron, who's not with us tonight. I mentioned it sort of offhandedly without really thinking about it. And I said, this out of Alcatraz book, this first book, it's my favorite book of 2025. And he goes, it's January. What you talking about? was like, I mean, yes, you're right. Sure. Good point.

But there's something important about this book that I think folks are really going to grab onto. And I do want to talk about it more. And I'd love to get you guys back on when the trade is eventually out a couple of months down the road. But selfishly, I don't want to spoil anything for everybody. Hopefully that sort of teases everything up for you guys for out of Alcatraz. But selfishly, I have a couple of questions for each of you individually here. And I want to start here with Tyler.

Now, since our first conversation here on the podcast last year. I have been waving biggest Tyler Crook fan flag proudly on top of the mountaintop. I'm sure you get annoyed with my tags on social media constantly, but I just feel like people should know. I know Chris probably agrees with me and I feel like you have to answer me this while you're here. Right. And that is when are we going to get more lonesome hunters?

Man, I wish I could tell you for sure, it doesn't look like Dark Horse is going to do more Lonesome Hunters Who do I need to talk to? Who do need to call? Call your local representative. Call your local Dockhorse representative. Yeah, make sure you email darkhorse at darkhorse.com or something. don't know. Just tell people, make sure that if you mention it on social media, they do notice it. I'm playing with a bunch of different ideas of how to get it going.

It's not a story that I'm willing to sort of just let die because I do have a couple more story arcs. And it's a story that's like really important to me personally. So I'm hoping to really get it. I'm hoping to start getting at least have a plan together in the next couple of months for how I'm going to get it out and then get it on my schedule in a way that won't kill me. I know you were saying it took you like a couple of months per issue, right? Like that's, I remembering the timeline?

You know, when things are normal, I can do an issue in about two months. And it seems like it's been much longer lately. But that's I feel like that's the beauty of this process. And that's, again, just kind of like champion only here, like Bess knew and Sierra knew and Hunter knew, like build in the timelines for these books.

And and over on the on the license side of things like, by the way, I will say IDW aside and Heather Antos aside, because that feels like what comic books, I thought comic books were when I was a kid in the 90s is working for them. But other places, the timelines are. Even for me, and I've got it easy because it's like, here's a word document. Like, it's ludicrous. And I worry about the artists. So it's been nice.

I like to think of Tyler carefully painting in his studio and going, I feel like he's got the time. Yeah. And watching your comic book cool down and going, yeah. You know what I mean? It feels like what it's supposed to be. I don't know.

Yeah, I have not I definitely have not well I've definitely felt pressured to keep it moving like I'm one of those people where it's like if I'm not if I'm not making progress on a project my stress level just gets through the roof and like the easiest way to keep myself happy is to have like Like a goal for what I'm gonna get done in a day and then get it done in a day And then I'm just like the happiest dude like on the planet.

So and so I've been Yeah, I've been making steady progress on this and there have been some other little projects that have come up and stuff. like I did some EC comic stuff and. Yeah, I did. They're both out, in fact. I did one where I wrote and drew it about a zombie story. I think it's in the EC epitaphs from the Abyss number three. And then I did a story with Matthew Rosenberg that I think is in number five.

I'm going to put that on my mental note right now because I didn't know that that was the thing. And then, you know, again, I want to sort of switch gears over to you, Chris, here. Whenever I talk about your work to someone, I always I have to mention the Doctor Doom series that you did back in 2019 and 2020 with Salvador Larocca.

And, you know, not only is it super smart and not only would Victor rather destroy an entire universe than make nice with Reed in this story, but every part of the story just I feel like it just gets doom. and gets and understands why he's so compelling and also has, enough, one of my favorite interactions between those two, where I think it's an issue nine where they basically are trying to sideways, halfway complement each other, but not really.

Like it's a it's one of my favorite two page interaction. So, you know, we're about to get a couple of years of some pretty intense doom things, you know, whether it be comics with Ryan North and his one world under doom event here in the summer of twenty twenty five. or of course, as many people already know, RDJ coming back to the MCU as the character.

So another big question for you here, Chris, when you started initially planning out this run here, and since the ending of it with hindsight, what are some things that you believe people should understand about Victor in order to fully grasp that character? boy. I mean, I really love the character and I grew to love the character. it was the first work I did for Marvel is the short story that's in there, A Rose for Victor, which was part of the War of the Realms stuff. I went with it.

favorite, my favorite, I don't have it here, I have it in my office. My favorite Doom story is Triumph and Torment, where he and Doctor Strange confront Mephisto and it's like, who's the better sorcerer? Then it really leans into the soul of his mother and all of this stuff and the love he has for his people. That to me was such a huge important part of the character, which was that he loved his people.

There's a code there, which is why I think you sometimes see him working with other heroes or doing these things. But also capable of incredible unspeakable villainy, right? If you press the wrong button on the guy. And that issue you mentioned, issue nine is I that issue is my I think that's my favorite issue in the run because the whole thing is Reed. He's going to save the world like Doom is going to say no one else can do it. And he's going to he's like, I'm going to save the world.

And it's working and he's going to go save the world and close the black hole near the moon. And Reed just calls him to say good luck. Yeah. And it fucks up his entire life. And it's like And you can never if you go back and look at it. And I think Salva did it so well because like Reed is a hero and a great character himself. But he's a little pissy with Captain America where he's like, he's he's really enjoying this. And it's the only time you see Reed.

And then he just calls him and he salvage his face just flat like expressionless. He's like, I just want to say good luck. And Victor's like, why did he do that? Like, he's like, you know, something's wrong. And he just undoes himself. Right. And like, it's that it's that it's that the character The character is his own worst enemy. The only one that can beat Doom is Doom. Yes, exactly. Like that's that's the whole thing.

And like even when he gets to the finale, like the other version of him is like, you could have fixed your face like years ago. And he's like, you're wearing that mask. And he just gets so angry. You know, I think that that interaction and then in issue six, the little the little dance that he has, there's like a little road movie. I think that issue is called The Road to Latveria, which is like a homage to the Bing Crosby, Bob Hope movies. But it's him and Kang.

and they're working their way across the Southwest and they are kind of friends. like, at one point they're on a boat and like, they're just, they actually, they're yelling at each other so much they just start laughing. And one, and I can't remember, it's like, one, I Cank says, I'll destroy, I'm gonna, I will destroy you Victor. And he says, I'll destroy, it's like, I'll destroy you first. But they're really saying, I love you man.

You know, like, it's like that kind of thing where it's like only two egomaniacs. can really see each other because otherwise they're like quite cripplingly lonely, you know? And like that's also true with Doom. So, I don't know. Yeah, he's a great character. love that. All right. I don't want to, I, again, I, I just wanted to get those two quick questions in for you two both, because again, I just love both those works and I have one final question for you guys before I let you go here.

You know, and it's been an absolute pleasure having you here. We always like to end these conversations by asking our creators, what's something you've been enjoying recently? And this could be, you know, comic, a movie, a video game. I know Tyler, you've worked in video games, podcasting. If you want to save the oblivion bar, that'd be cool. or just whatever you've been loving. Tyler, let's go ahead and start with you. What's something you've been really enjoying here recently?

I have been, my wife and I have been working our way through like all the Star Trek shows and that has just been like such like a comfort for me. Everyone tells me the next generation is the one I should watch. that true? Well, I love it. Thank you. should watch all of them. I the only one that is like the only the only series that I did not enjoy and if I quit was Picard. I just could not couldn't make it through that one. But like Next Generation is great. Deep Space Nine is a masterpiece.

Voyager starts off rough but like finds its footing. I was joking on Blue Sky the other day that as soon as that started being written by the Swedish chef got way better because he was just like Borg borg borg. Borg borg borg borg. And that like it gets really good. Seven of Nine is one of my favorite characters. Yeah, and like so just watching those has been like my real thing for a long time now.

Now that I think about it, we've been because we started with DS9 and so we've been watching them every night for a year or more now. Chris, you actually, you wrote some Star Trek, correct? Yeah, I've been on, so that was the IDW thing. I've been on the Star Trek team, the Shared Universe books, which is Jackson Lansing and Colin Kelly and I, and then like just a staple of really wonderful artists.

Yeah, we've done two years of books and we did a crossover event last summer and we're doing a big crossover event this spring called Lore War. But it's very, it's a year after DS9 ends. So it's the year between the end of DS9 and Nemesis. we filled it to the brim with the craziest things, the craziest 12 months those characters have ever had. But yeah, it feels like Star Trek fantasy football. But it's been so much fun working with Heather on that stuff and architecting it.

Can we talk to Heather about, can we get a Tyler Crook Star Trek cover? don't know if Tyler, I'm speaking for you here. I don't mean to, but you know, if that's not something you're interested in, we need to get Heather on the line because I would buy one of those. Yeah, tell Heather I'll do that in a heartbeat. I would love to. my god, I will write her tonight. is, she is, I know she's a huge fan of yours and she's, She's great. Yeah, I haven't I haven't talked to her in a long, time.

Man, those covers by that Malachi Ward has been doing. every time you post one of those, I'm just like, how did you do this? Blown away. Yeah, this is the greatest like Star Trek, but like not the bad stars. Yeah, he does all the crossover covers and so he's done the lore war covers and the palette is just super cool and yeah, it's been really fun. For me, think I just finished the Percival Everett book, James, which I know you've heard about, it's... Yeah, so it's quite popular.

Percival Everett wrote Erasure upon which the movie American Fiction was based. But James is the story of Huck Finn, but told through the, it's a reimagining of that, told through the story of Jim, the slave that Huck is with. It's his internal story and it's really heavy and beautiful. we were just talking about this great country of ours, which is, is unflinching in its look at the country and America, especially at that time. And it's very relevant now.

And it goes in some pretty, pretty intense directions. And but ultimately, it's just a just such a beautiful human book. It's funny and shocking and and scary because it's you realize what it's like for an adult man to be going through this experience with a white child on the run, knowing what could happen at any moment to him. And it it's it's it's fantastic. Yeah. I read it all through jury duty, not on the trial, obviously, but there's a lot of extra time in the courthouse.

So I read it, I blew through it. It's such a good book. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah, that's I'm glad to hear that endorsement because I've obviously seen it be celebrated through, you know, again, Barnes and Noble and such. obviously people best of 2024 lists often that was on there somewhere. So you've inspired me to go grab that this weekend. But again, as I said a moment ago, Tyler, Chris, an absolute pleasure having you both here on the Oblivion Bar podcast.

I cannot implore people enough to go grab that first issue of Out of Alcatraz comes out on March 19th. FOC is February 24th. this will come out way before that everybody. So when you're listening to this, you will have the opportunity to go to your LCS and go ahead and preorder this book. This is how you support comics. And this is a book that you should be preordering for sure. I've already, I told my local comic shop here in Indianapolis, Mages Comics, I want every cover.

want cover A down to Hayden Sherman's one in 50. I want all of them. I you guys, you guys have like eight covers for this first issue. That's incredible. Yeah, they're good. It's like we did a great, like nice breadth of covers. I don't feel like we didn't go overboard, but it's like eight ones you want. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Well, before I let you go and Chris, I'll start with you here. Anything you want to tease for the listener here and how, again, you're not on social media.

How can they follow you anywhere? Can they follow your career? Do they just show up one day? They're like, look, here's a book from Chris. Cool. I guess Campbell has a new thing. Yeah, no, I guess the major thing I'll tease is, well, we have that lore war crossover coming up with Star Trek. then I got a new television show coming out later this year. They don't have a premiere date yet, but it's the third season of The Terror for AMC. But it's based on an original novel by Victor Laval.

And I show ran the show with Victor. It's six episodes. It's called The Devil in Silver. It's based on Victor's book, which itself is quite wonderful. But we departed from the book and evolved it together with some really wonderful writers and actors. Dan Stevens is the lead. We shot that all last year in New York. it's actually being final delivery is on the 13th of this month. So I'm finally done with that show. And then it gets to premiere on the television box later this year.

So check it out. That's amazing. That's so cool. Is that on the AMC plus app? are the other It'll be AMC Plus and it'll air and it'll do all their little things the way streaming and cable works these days and it'll be somewhere for you to click around on your smarts. For you to fucking... Just don't give up. You'll find it. Yeah. Tyler, how about you? How can people follow you? Is there anything you want to tease for the listener? Let's see.

I'm on blue sky and Cara right now for the time being and then I also have a weekly live stream on YouTube called the comic book cool down that I do Fridays at 7 p.m. Pacific time and What I really the only thing I got the only thing I got in my life right now is Alcatraz So yeah, pick that up. I'm almost done. I'm starting the fifth issue this week. man, I'm excited. That's cool. How does it feel to be directly competing with Daniel Warren Johnson and his Friday with D-Dubs?

Do you feel that tension between? don't feel like there's a competition for one thing. I actually did a thing where I worked out when the best time was for me to or the best day for me to do it. I was like, really, Fridays are the only days where it makes sense for me to schedule this. And then I had to pay attention to Daniel's live stream to be like, OK, I'm going to do it at 7 p.m. because that's when his isn't on. So I can still watch his occasionally now. then he still does it.

He just does it at random times. Daniel, stick to the script here, man. Make a schedule, man. We're trying to make room. All right, well, gentlemen, thank you so much for being here once again. I'd love to get you back on once the series is over. Maybe we can talk full spoilers or whatever, just any opportunity I get to have either both of you or individually on the show again in the future. I would absolutely jump at that. That would be great. Thanks so much for having us, man.

Yeah. All righty, there's that conversation with both Christopher Cantwell and Tyler Crick. Once again, thank you so much, both of you for coming on the show. Such a great conversation. Love talking to both of them. And as I say there at the end of that conversation, would love to get them back on after Out of Alcatraz is collected into what I hope is a nice, deluxe hardcover. know, Tyler has gotten a couple of those with both Harrell County and the Lonesome Hunters.

Gosh, would it not be great to get one of those nice oversized hardcovers from Oni Press? If anyone's listening. Wink Wink over at ONIPRESS would love to get a oversized hardcover or just a hardcover in general of Out of Alcatraz. So once again, thank you so much Chris and Tyler. Greatly appreciate you guys coming onto the show. And again, Out of Alcatraz number one comes out on March 19th. And again, FOC is on February 24th.

So go pre-order that book, add it to your pull list, all the good things. So that'll do it for episode 181. Next week on the show, Aaron will be back as I said earlier, and we are going to be covering again, as I mentioned earlier, Captain America, Brave New World. We're going to be talking about the brand new installment in the MCU. Excitement is, it wavers. comes, it ebbs and flows here recently.

In one moment, I'm so excited for this movie and on other moments I am cautiously optimistic and then other times I am extremely worried. And as many people know, this movie has gone through multiple reshoots. And that's nerve wracking. And a lot of times these big blockbusters do that. But you know, the MCU I've officially, and I think I could speak for Aaron here as well. The quality has, the valleys have dipped here and there, right?

Deadpool and Wolverine, it felt like a writing of the ship, but how much of that can be owed to the charisma of Hugh Jackman and, Ryan Reynolds and sort of our love of that character. So this will be definitely a good gauge on where we're at currently in the MCU, especially going into the Thunderbolts later this year. and going into Fantastic Four in the summer. you know, that will do it for this episode.

Make sure you guys join us next week for that conversation about Captain America Brave New World. Again, if you want to support the show or if you want to follow along, following the show is a great way to do that. You can follow us over on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Audible, iHeartRadio, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. That's where the oblivion bar is.

If you want to actually watch the video version of this conversation with Chris Cantwell and Tyler Crook and other interviews that we have, that is over on YouTube. Thank you to our patrons, Alex, Alice, Aaron, Bodder, Chris S, Chris Y, Christie, David, Elliot, George, Johnny, Greg, Haley, Ham6, Jake, Jeremy, Kyle, Losey, Mac, Miles, Mike, Olivia, Ryan, I, Robert, Sean, Travis, Zach, and Brad and Lisa.

Thank you all so much for supporting the Oblivion Bar podcast over on patreon.com forward slash Oblivion Bar pod. Follow the show over on social media, blue sky, Instagram, TikTok, at Oblivion Bar pod. Gosh, is social media just a. absolute hellscape right now. I have absolutely no idea where the town hall sentiment of social media has gone, but we are still there currently. So I would say blue sky, Instagram and Tik Tok are the big ones there.

If you want to get an official piece of merch from our T public store, go over to our website, oblivionbarpodcast.com. Thank you KXD studio for our oblivion bar art. He is at KXD graphics over on Instagram. Thank you, dream kid for all of our amazing musical themes. Thank you, DJ sky back for a grid theme. And once again, as always, do not forget to tip your bartenders, your servers 20 % or more. That's the bare minimum.

If you go out to eat, you know, any appropriate moment that it is to tip someone 20 % or more, come on, let's, take care of our, our service industry people. deserve it. And again, that'll do it for the Abillion Bar podcast this week. Thank you all so much for listening to the show and we will see you next week for episode 182.