Hello, this is Brian K. Vaughan, writer of Why the Last Man, Ex Machina, Paper Girls, Saga, and a bunch of other crap. And you are listening to the best podcast in the universe, the Oblivion Bar podcast. The Oblivion Bar podcast with your host, Chris Hacker and Aaron Norris. Hello everyone. Welcome to episode 165 of the Oblivion Bar podcast. I'm your last man alive with no one but my pet capuchin Chris Hacker.
And joining me this week is a decorated coalition war hero and the lead vocalist of Fartbox, my co -host and BFF Aaron Knowles. Am I shitting? It feels like I'm shitting. And that was, that's how a dream was made reality. Aaron. That's, that's a, yes. Welcome back everybody to the Oblivion Bar podcast this week on the show. No surprise. If you've seen title, you know exactly who's here to join us here on the Oblivion Bar podcast.
One of my ultimate bucket list creators, my all time favorite writer in comics, all time favorite writer overall, the writer of Ex Machina and Paper Girls. of Lost. Seasons of Lost, Private Eye, Pride of Baghdad, I said Paper Girls Spectators over on Substack, Why the Last Man, of course Saga, Aaron, which is why Brian K. Vaughan is here on the Oblivion Bar podcast this week. It's exciting. It's fucking exciting.
I can't wait to hear about the process because you're about to tell us the process of getting the Brian Cave 14 time Eisner winning creator. Like, holy shit. Like this man's a fucking legend. Yeah, absolutely. And as we've said before, I don't think it's really a secret that Brian doesn't do a ton of podcasts. I've seen him hop on one every once in a while and I had to pull some strings behind the scenes.
I hate to gatekeep all of my resources behind the scenes, but I had to reach out to multiple folks. to make this happen. And it was such a wonderful feeling when I got that email from Brian saying, yeah, I would love to come on and talk about Saga, which is why he's here today. As we said a moment ago, we have the return of Saga with issue 67 coming out the Wednesday that you're listening to this episode. So that following Wednesday Saga, we will be back from a pretty lengthy hiatus.
I think it's been most of 2024 that Saga has not been out and about every coming out every month. So very exciting. I say it here in the conversation, Aaron, you know this because I've done it to you. When someone comes to me and they say, Chris, I want to get into comics. What should I read? And I don't hand them Batman. I don't hand them Swamp Thing. I don't hand them Watchmen. I don't hand them The Dark Knight Returns or Spider -Man Blue or all four seasons Superman.
I don't hand them any of that. I hand them Saga because I think Saga represents what the medium does so incredibly well. think it's the perfect representation. It's the greatest mascot for comics and what it does, why it's so special and why it's so incredible. It's also super accessible. Saga is one of those ones that it's not an old story. It's not a story that's been retold multiple times. It's not a universe that's been rebooted.
It is literally a self confined universe that you can jump into like, it's a pretty recent thing. it's like not hard to find. It's not like you have to go all the way back to like 1960s to find like Superman number one. No, like this is it's in Omnibus. It's in hardcovers. It's like a compendium. could probably go to a library and it's that popular. You could probably go to library and find it on it like their graphic novel or comic book section.
And it's such it's it's just the story itself is relevant. It's accessible. It's modern. It's telling inclusive. It's just funny. It's sad. You're absolutely right. Yeah, it's it is. You're absolutely right that this is just a story that is that is a perfect mascot for the comic industry and everything that it can be. Yeah, 100%.
And I think that if you love saga for some reason, if you're listening to this conversation and you've only read saga by Brian or if you haven't read saga, for instance, first of all, I would imagine that you shouldn't be listening to this right now because we go full spoilers. I should just say that right at the top that When we dive into this conversation, Brian, I say it in the conversation. I'll say it again here.
I could not forgive myself if I had Brian here on the show and not talk about at least up to issue 54, which readers of saga know that issue 54 is an extremely important issue that a lot of things happen. And again, I wouldn't be able to have him on here and not at least sort of pick his brain on a lot of, you know, what his process is, what, how Fiona was reacting to this, all the things which we get into here in this conversation. So you'll need a tissue. for that issue. That's correct.
If you got that issue, you're going to need a tissue because it is. Yes, it's something not to spoil anything right now. your eye. But yeah, so Brian and it will probably talk about it later on after the conversation. But I'm extremely proud of this interview. You should be. It went about as perfect. Thank you. It went about as perfectly as it could have. There was no uncomfortability. He was totally like Brian from the moment that he hopped on screen just.
show he just exposes underbelly and let me into his brain. And you get that here in this conversation. There's going to be like in the intro of the conversation, you just drop like a total F bomb. And I'm just like, my first reaction is, fuck, Chris. But then like he's totally in on it. Like it's like he's sold and he's in on the conversation. He's comfortable and it's great.
So I am excited for people to get the chance to listen to and again, it's not too often that I am, I mean, it's more often than you are. It's not too often that I'm on the outside, like looking in and listening to these, interviews, not having been participant, a participant in this conversation. But I got to say, man, you like, and again, I'll tell you this after the conversation as well. You knocked this one out of the park, man. You killed it. You absolutely killed it.
Like all I'm thinking is while I'm, know, when the conversation is wrapping up is he doesn't fucking need me on this show. I said it last week that the only thing that I would have changed about this Brian interview is that it would have been better if you had been there. I do think so. I would have been like the bumbling idiot, like liar. Lying, lying. Like I would have nothing. Like I would not have much to offer to this com in this conversation.
And I really think as the saga super fan that I'm going to call you, like I'm going to label you as a saga super fan, the Brian K. Vaughn super fan, the eloquent comic fan that you You fucking killed this interview. And honestly, like I didn't need to be there for this one. It's better than I didn't because this was like a again, we'll talk about it. This is a bucket list moment for you and well deserved, well done and fucking we got some news coming up for the patrons.
I don't want to segue too early into it. We got some news for the for the for our listeners, for our patron members, for everybody. Go ahead. Get into it. Tell everyone what's going on because I this episode is extremely important, but it's equally I would say equally as important. Not only because Brian is here because we have a little bit of news here as well. Yeah, absolutely.
And I was going to say that like so we're about to take a little bit of a break while Chris, you know, everybody should already know that Chris is going through some chemotherapy treatment, right? Treatments right now. Sorry. It's a little tough for for both of us, at least for me to talk about. He seems to be fine. He looks cute. I don't know. looks great. It's great for it. Even Brian talks about this. Am I attracted to a chemo kid right now? Yeah, I'm I'm. I'm always Dougie Chris.
But no, it's, you know, you're about halfway through, you know, we want you to finish up strong. So we're going to be taking a little bit of a break. But also we've got some really exciting things coming up for the show. It's a really exciting time. If you ever played the poke, here's how I attribute it to. I refer to as if you ever played Pokemon, you know that the evolution of a Pokemon is a moment out of time. Everything in the game stops. You focus in on that.
that Pokemon and she's like, boom, boom. And like you take a moment and you realize that that Pokemon is about to level up to the, or to evolve into its next true form. And that's what we're about to do. We're about to evolve into our next level of oblivion bar pod form. And this is our moment.
This is our notification to our trainers, which is you, the audience saying, The OPP is evolving and we needed to take a step back for a couple of months, let Chris finish up and come back harder, faster, stronger. Are you doing Daft Punk right now? Yeah, man. Harder, better, faster, stronger. Thank you. I was hoping you'd come in with something. But yeah, that's what it's about to happen. I'm going to let Chris give a little bit of his side of it, but that's the way I look at it.
Yeah, you're absolutely right. You've surmised it quite well, I'll say. It is one of those things where this show is such a labor of love. absolutely adore this podcast. I love sitting down each week with my best friend, Aaron, to talk about comics, movies, television, video games, what have you, speaking to creators like Brian.
It's my favorite creative outlet that I've ever had, but I would feel, I felt guilty here and there over the last couple of months going through this, that I just have not been able to give myself completely to the show based on the fact that I'm going through chemotherapy. I should warn everybody as well that Things are going well. The last chemo session that I had, which was my fourth one, whatever was growing in the beginning of the year has gone. It's officially gone.
We're just going to keep going. So that's good news. It is technically stage four, but that's not as scary as it sounds, according to my oncologist. So I'll obviously keep everybody updated, but that's kind of what's going on. But we wanted to go out with a bang. And this conversation with Brian K. Vaughn is a perfect example of that. And then when we come back in the fall, like Aaron said, it is going to be a brand new show in a lot of ways. You'll still get the same.
Chris and Aaron, you'll still get the same creator interviews. We'll get the same movie reviews, Midnight Rewind, most anticipated films of the next year, Last Call Awards, Halloween special, all those things will still happen. It's just that we're, as Aaron said, we're going from Charmander to Charmeleon. And then maybe one day we'll go into, we'll just go full Charizard, who knows? Charizard. Oblivion Bar Potian, I don't know. I don't know what's the next name for us.
We gotta come up with that. Opupamite. But enough of that, enough preamble. We're not even gonna plug Patreon because through all this process, Aaron and I, we're still need to discuss it, but we're probably just gonna pause the Patreon for a bit so that way we can literally just focus on getting through chemo and all that. But we'll let everyone know what's going on there.
But outside of that, I think we've said all we can say in terms of, you know, going into this conference, very important conversation to me. Again, this is probably my favorite interview that we ever had on here on the show. Not because Aaron is not there, like I said, I wish he was, but the fact that I had, like if you had come to me months ago. or years ago even and say, Chris, you were hosting this podcast about comics. First creator that comes to mind. Who would you want to talk to?
I would have said Brian cave on then and I would have said Brian cave on now. So I've officially peaked here on the show. I can only go down from here. So once you guys listen to this conversation, just know that it's just going to get worse. It's just going to be far worse when we come back in the fall that we're going to get stupid with this. Get real stupid. Stupid stupid. S T O O P I D. Stupid. We're going to be upgrade with a Y. Fat with a pH. Yeah, exactly. All right, everybody.
Well, that's enough preamble from Aaron and I. Again, thank you all so much for joining us. If this is your first time listening to the Oblivion Bar, welcome. These interviews, there's back catalog of interviews outside of Brian here. We're hoping that having Brian on here will bring a bunch of new listeners, but new or old, thank you for being here. We appreciate it. We love doing the Oblivion Bar and we're so excited to bring this conversation with you. And stay tuned to the socials.
I mean, this isn't more. I feel like we're talking about the end of the show. Let's save this for the end of the show. We'll talk about it later. But without further ado, let's go ahead and get into this conversation with Brian Kayvon. And now, this week's special guest. Joining us this week on the show is the 14 -time Eisner Award -winning writer of titles like Why the Last Man, Ex Machina, Runaways, The Private Eye, Pride of Baghdad, Paper Girls, Spectators Over on Substack, and Saga.
It is my pleasure to welcome Brian K. Vaughn onto the Oblivion Bar podcast. Hello, thanks so much for having me, Chris. Of course. To quote Val from Spectators, I have to say, it is awesome slash fucking insane to have you here on the Oblivion Bar podcast today. Awesome slash fucking insane to be here. Thanks again. Now I have to start the conversation by bringing up a core memory of mine. And you won't remember this at all.
But our very first time meeting was actually at New York Comic Con in 2021. And this moment is particularly very embarrassing for me because I was the last person in line to meet you. And this was the New York Comic Con that you announced with issue 55 that Saga was coming back. And as I got to the front of the line again, I was the last person.
We had this nice little chat about the return of Saga and I inherently thought, gosh, I should probably get a photo with Brian because who knows when I'm gonna see him at another con. And I ask you for a selfie, which you graciously immediately said yes. We snapped the photo and I think, wow, I have officially successfully immortalized a core memory.
Later that day, as I'm scrolling through Instagram, I see this post from you on, again, on Instagram from about three hours earlier and it says, hi friends, I'm excited and terrified to leave. my quarantine cave and see some of you brave souls at the upcoming New York Comic Con. I'll be signing all four days of the show. I never charge for my autograph, but in order to say hello to as many of you fine folks as possible, let's please limit it to five items per visit.
Also, because of COVID protocols, I unfortunately won't be able to take my usual awkward selfies, but feel free to Photoshop yourself in and you have a photo of you kind of like with your arm out for people to Photoshop. So point being, this is long -winded way of apologizing to you for suckering you into that selfie at New York Comic Wow, do you not need to apologize? How obnoxious. said 2021 was a long time ago. I'm sorry.
I think I know I was doing some TV stuff and they were just, everyone was so afraid. I thought if we get any of the cast sick at this convention, they will never come back to another con. So it was a little over the top, but I'm glad that's in the distant past. was just at Furiosa last night and someone was wetly coughing onto my neck behind me and I was like, we are back. I'm so Like, feel the spritz behind you. Like, okay, we're back. We are so back. And you know, you were being safe.
I just, I had this like wave of just dread as soon as I saw that post, because you didn't even hesitate. You were like, absolutely, let's take it. And I actually included the photo in our transcript if you're curious, but. It was just a funny quick moment where I was going through sort of just doom scrolling at the end of a long con. And I see that you were like, no photos. I'm like, no, I literally just did that. photos. God, I'm the worst. I be publicly executed for that.
I wanted to get that shameless moment out of the way really quick because we need to get into what I think a lot of folks are here to listen to, is our conversation about Saga, which is coming back with issue 67, which is heading shelves on July And I feel like I should provide a general spoiler warning for folks who are not caught up to issue 66, because truthfully, I don't know if I would be able to forgive myself if I
had you here on the show and didn't peel back at least a couple layers of saga. So you once said, other than my own family collaborating with Fiona Staples on saga is the most important thing in my life. Throughout the now 12 year epic that you two have been on with saga, outside of her obvious one of a kind artwork. What's something that Fiona has consistently brought to your guys' partnership that still amazes you?
I mean, obviously she's such an extraordinary artist, but she's also a better writer than I am. I just think she is. And, you know, a lot of writing is nonverbal. It's not about dialogue. It's about telling a story visually and just watching what she does with my script. I would not be right to say that she elevates the script as much as totally transforms it. Yeah, I was just looking at some new pages coming in for a scene. And when I wrote it, it was just so totally absurd.
And you know, it's the saga universe. just have characters with weird things for heads doing something, you know, I don't want to spoil anything, but it's pretty nutty. And just watching these pages come in and it just looks so real. It is so lived in and these little details that she puts to the world, into the characters to make them feel real.
And then I feel this obligation to like, didn't understand who this character was till I saw the way that Fiona drew them when they're just in the background, just what are they doing when I don't have them blabbing? And yeah, it's she's just an extraordinary collaborator and she doesn't need me at all, but I'm grateful to be hanging in there for as long as I have.
It's so funny to hear you say that because I feel this often like sort of kindred spiritness with people when I meet them out in public where we're like matching each other's weird and we sort of on the same wavelength. And I feel like that's kind of how you and Fiona are. You guys have that same type of like weird about each of you that whenever you put something into a script, she just takes it to the next level.
And I'm sure it's amazing to see right there in front of you whenever it comes over to your, I'm sure your email or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. But Fiona's not weird at all. She has just, she's incredibly sophisticated and she has I think just an unbelievably high level of taste. And so I just imagine that she gets these scripts from me and just sighs. And I was just like, how am I going to turn this shit into something brilliant? But she does.
Well, you you must be doing something right because again, as I said a moment ago in the question, 12 years now on Saga. Does it feel like 12 years since you guys started this long epic? Yeah, that's about right. feels like a long time. Yeah, you know, it's roughly the age of my kids that started this journey. Just, you know, pitch this to Fiona right after my first child was born. And Fiona was drawing the first issue as my second kid was born.
yeah, this is my entire life as a parent has also been my life writing saga. And yeah, I mean, the cliches are true about parenthood and comics that the days are long, the years are short. Yeah, that's that's right. You know, it's interesting because I remember hearing you say in another interview that you've been sort of grifting ideas and thoughts and dialogue from your kids and then bringing them into like Hazel's personality. I find that really interesting.
your kids sound like, you know, true personalities just based on what I know of Hazel in the story. Yeah, they're they're very different. know it's never like a one to one analogy for any of these characters. But yes, there is. a lot of my children, not just in Hazel, but I think in all the characters. Yeah. And you know, you've been very vocal about never wanting to continue on with Saga without Fiona there by your side.
You two have taken breaks to ensure that the band stays together, which I think I can speak for all readers and fans of Saga that good, like, please, like, take the time, make sure you guys stay on this thing together, keep it going for as long as you need to. I know we're sort of at like a little bit, like almost at the third or fourth. part of the story, guess you guys have initially planned for like around 100 issues, correct?
Yeah, yeah, it'll be about 18 volumes when all is said and done and we're working on book 12 now, guess volume 12 as it were. And I heard you mentioned this in your Instagram post that this is the 12th season. Has it always been sort of in your brain that it's like a season, you know, like sort of, guess, is that like an analogy to television or anything like that? It's interesting. I remember my image was like, don't put season in here. Everyone's going to hate this.
But yeah, I was like, it is something that we don't think about in comics where usually it's like a monthly book comes out, you know, just forever and there's never any break. And I've always thought of each volume, each six issues as its own sort of standalone world. But yeah, as Fiona and I were talking about our return, and sort of what the shape of the back half of our series was gonna be was like, these aren't just storylines, they're seasons.
And so I don't know, people I'm sure despise the terminology, but I think you'll see especially in this upcoming arc what I mean by that.
Sure, yeah. And I mean, I think my part of the reason why I said all that is to sort of ask and sort of get your thoughts on sort of the response to readers or from readers, excuse me, from issue 54, which was truly something that I think a lot of us remember vividly and you kind of had to be there to know what was going on with saga there at the end of issue 54 again, go back to my earlier spoiler warning because even though I
think a lot of people that are listening to this right now have already read up to at least issue 54, it still feels weird. Like it feels weird to talk about that issue because when I give saga to someone, I'm just waiting for them to text me and go, holy crap issue 54. Right. So my question for you is, were you anxious at for the release of issue 54 and were you or Fiona or both of you worried about how fans were going to react to that 54th issue?
I guess I have to preface this by saying I love our readers. They are the best people in the world. They get our characters tattooed on them and they invite us to their weddings. They send us such lovely gifts. are, yeah, look at that shirt you're wearing. Awesome. Yes, they are the best. At the same time, I cannot think about them when I'm working on Saga. I have to put readers out of my mind and just concentrate on telling the story that Fiona and I want to tell.
I think I would be paralyzed if I worried about, what do readers want? And instead of just, this is the story we have to tell. So thankfully, no, I wasn't too anxious. I do try and put it out of my mind. And if Fiona is okay, if she enjoyed drawing the issue and she hasn't quit yet, then I'm like, it's a success. Yeah. If you're willing to share, I'm just curious, what was the discourse between you and Fiona that week of the release of issue 54? Was there anything that you can share?
Or was it significant at all, you know, in terms of like how you guys were reacting to each other? What was the group chat like? You know, we don't really do after actions like that when I think we were just so relieved to be at this finish line. of this halfway mark of we had been doing it for so long and at such a breakneck pace that I think it was just relief.
Like we had sort of washed ashore and now it was like, all right, let's take some time here and do something that most fiction is never allowed to do, which is just pause. And, you know, we run the risk that maybe the audience hates it and they're gone forever. But we were We've been so blessed and so fortunate with the series. We can kind of afford to keep going, even if it's just our parents are the last people reading this book in a few years.
we've so no, there wasn't a lot of worry beforehand. I think it was more nervously bringing up to Fiona that this was going to happen. And Fiona has a rule. I guess we talk a lot before each arc and we talk about, you know, what kind of things do you want to draw? What did you hate about last dark? But what Fiona doesn't want is detailed spoilers about, here's who's going to die. Because she wants to read that script and experience it as a reader and sort of channel that into the drawings.
So and yet when my wife and I went to Fiona's wedding and we were there in Canada, I knew I had to write this upcoming arc. So I sort of I was testing the waters. I was like, look, before I break something.
big is maybe gonna happen and sort of feeling out and like, if I send her this, what are we gonna do if she, but sort of getting coded messages from her back, like, I think we know what awful place this is headed to and I think she knows me well and I think she knows what kind of story we were gonna tell. So she was like, no, write it and let's do it. But no, no. second thoughts, no like last minute reprieve, like maybe we shouldn't do this.
I think we knew this is ready for part two of this journey to begin. It's funny. I think one of the things I revere most about your work is that you've sort of just put it out there, right? Like there's no, I don't sense any sort of regret or timidness when it comes to your work. think Spectators is a good example of that. Obviously Saga is a great example of that.
Ex Machina, Why the Last Man, there's a lot of things in these stories that you think, We are looking directly into the frontal lobe of Brian K. Vaughn as he's writing this. And I just have always admired that as someone who I think I can maybe speak for a lot of folks who are listening to this right now, people who suffer from imposter syndrome who think, wow, if I put this out there and people hate it, I will never be able to get over this. But I just don't sense any of that from you.
And I really love that. Thank you. Just a deep rooted narcissism. I just, yeah, just a real dick who's like, just this stuff. that is in our brains. And I knew that, look, most people, I'm amazed as many people respond to it as have, but I knew that people might hate issue 54, might be done with it forever. Because I know most people like a book that, you know, maintains its status quo. If somebody dies, there's a chance that they can have a heroic return and they like it to come out.
And if the creators are busy, Just get some other creators and have it. like if that's what you want out of comics, there are at least two companies putting out books that do that every month. You can find that. But if you do want something where death is real and it's not always going to be a sort of upbeat fan service thing, I think that's most people want those kinds of stories. Just the kind of corporate storytelling that needs us to keep characters alive forever.
is just so against what stories are for, which is, I've blabbed about this many times, but it does feel like stories are to prepare us for the worst things in our lives that are gonna happen, which is, you know, we're gonna lose people that we love, we're gonna face tragedy, and I understand that a of contemporary fiction is not very interested in that, and that's good, because it gives us a narrow lane to fill.
I just I'm looking forward to one day when I'm sitting down with my kids and mom's getting a little older and it's getting that time and I hand them saga and I'm like, Hey, if you can handle Marco and Prince robot passing, you buckle up. You've got some things happening here in the near future that could possibly be a similar, similar emotion.
It is weirdly nice to hear because I know when the book, the first issue came out and people were very nice, but they were also like the big mistake is this book is narrated by Hazel and we get the sense that she's older and that she's going to be okay. So it sort of removes any tension when you know your protagonist is going to be okay. Cause I was like, you wait and see. know, it's funny because rereading saga for in preparation for this, I went back and read it all the way through. drag.
telling you, just, I was slugging through it. Right. And when I got to around issue 54, I started to see the seeds for the first time of you. sort of letting the reader know in a very subtle way that like Marco is planting himself within Hazel because again, what's about to happen. And what I find really interesting is that we get this very fun and welcome heel turn by Prince Robot in the story where he sort of gloms onto the team and sort of helps out for a bit.
his demise is when I talk to people about Saga who are caught up and are willing to like sort of share their thoughts on I always like to bring up Prince Robot. like, man, I I want a little more time with him. Right. And I think that what he is about to do there in issue 54, but with the will before he eventually is murdered, I'm like, man, that's really, that really stinks.
You know, that's like, that's like Vegeta and the boo saga and Dragon Ball Z. It's like, he was almost there and he just, flipped it again. He went right back to the dark side because it was what he's known. Yeah, it is what I love. I love that phrase heel turn, because I think it's something that we all do like every day of our lives, that we're constantly heel turning and going against our best instincts. But it's nice to hear how much a character with a TV for a head that people can feel for.
And it's a character who's initially started like, this is a supporting antagonist who's just trying to murder our main characters, the people that we love. This should be a disposable figure that you don't care in the fact that people are really wrecked, I think is, again, a testament to Fiona. And when I think about someone was asking me recently, how do you write characters that people will care about? And was like, I have no idea.
I don't know how to make people care about actual human beings. It's really hard. But I care about watching Fiona's TV headed characters, the way they move their hands, the way they move their bodies is just they feel very real. And you just, even when they're terrible assholes and villainous characters, it just feels so real that you really do come to care about them. So again, that's all Fiona. Yeah, you know, speaking of Fiona and sort of her visual storytelling, I'm just curious.
I don't know if you ever talked about this before, but with the robots, how, you know, obviously they, speak a lot of truth through their face. How much of how much direction do you give Fiona with all that? Is that all her or do you offer anything? Well, if there's something that is so that the robots have kind of a tick where if they're especially emotional or something, their face will betray their emotions the way that ours do, you know, when we blush.
But instead of blushing, they'll flash like a mushroom cloud or something. So I'll I'll say if there's something on the screen, I'll suggest what it is. But the real acting for me is most of the time, the robots have nothing on the screen is just a blank. screens so you have nothing of no facial expression. And those are the best panels.
You can go through any panel and look at Prince Robot when he's just blank screened as a saying, you know exactly what he's thinking or with the tone of his voices. And that's what Fiona's genius is. So I will say Prince Robot is mildly peeved in this panel. I won't say how, because I don't know how. I'm not as good an actor as Fiona. But so yeah, I'll say what they're feeling, but not how to show that. That's her genius gift.
But you know, I want to go over one of my favorite lines in the series. This is from issue 64. And again, going back and rereading, was joking earlier, it was an incredible reread. And this really, for some reason, I've read Saga all the way through, you know, I would say, at least yearly since I picked it up in 2018. It's one of those books, Brian, I'm being truthful. I'm not saying this because you're right in front of me.
Every couple of years I got to go through, I got to grab my hardcovers, right? I got to grab that blue, that pink and that purple. And I got to go through and it again. there was this line in issue 64, again, from the infamous Hazel, one of her narrations. He says, matter how many life -changing figures cross our paths sooner or later, we all supposedly become our parents. I found that really powerful because as young people, none of us really get to choose what we inherit from our parents.
It often can become this cyclical recycling from generation to generation. Most of us aren't even aware of these traits that we have until we're much older. So with Hazel, are there any? North Star impulses or traits from Marco and Elena that you keep in mind when formulating her course throughout this story. Yeah, I think that probably the most important word in that line that you quoted from Hazel was supposedly that Hazel is constantly questioning.
And that is the thing that when we meet her parents, know, it's Marco is a prisoner of And we meet the two of them that I think that's their defining characteristic is that they're two young soldiers, but they're both very questioning that they've always spent their life trying to do their best, but questioning, are we doing the right thing? Is this, you know, is everything we've been told a lie? And so I think that's probably the thing that Hazel has most inherited.
But I think unfortunately for her parents, that includes questioning them and that, you know, are the ways I was raised this right. And it's this book that is so important to them. Will it be so important to me? So she is a skeptical, contrarian, questioning, difficult young lady, exactly like her parents. It's interesting, I think as time goes on, and it makes sense, of course, because up to this point, Alaina is a single mother. She's raising two kids by herself on the run.
And it feels like Hazel's personality, at least from my view, is slowly trending more towards Elena and some of her impulses. But I feel like there's still that sort of that flint of Marco in her where she will often put herself in danger to save other people or to do the thing that she needs to do. And her kindred relationship with her brother, Brobot, right? I feel like lot of that love, that inherent love comes from Marco's side in a way. think it's, you said you're a parent? No, I'm not.
am. I am. am a single man in my 30s. So I'm happily selfish. It's nothing selfish about it all. There's the last thing the world needs is more of us in here. Sure. But should you ever choose to go that path? I you'll see it's never so easy as like, this kid's got my eyes and, you know, his mother's nose, something. It is a weird. combination that happens where it'll take one attribute from your partner and then something from their father or something.
So it is complicated and probably a lot of ways that I deny too where I'm like, it's not my fault or I take responsibility for this. This is a long rambling way of hiding from this question because I guess I don't want to reveal where Aysel is headed, but stay tuned. We will find out eventually. I think it's a good a good sort of tease for that one. And I think we're all excited to see what happens again. It's funny because when I think, you know, I was raised by a single mother.
I don't know why I'm I for everyone. You weren't here for this. But as soon as Brian hopped on the line here, I just immediately trauma dumped about my sort of journey through cancer. And then now I'm telling him about my single. you know, my upbringing with a single mother and it's funny because I think a lot of my interesting traits that I have of myself are from directly from my mom. Like I'm very, I hyperfixate on things.
I'm extremely clean, which I guess maybe is sort of trends towards that hyperfixation. I'm like all or nothing. I like, I don't do anything halfheartedly. It is either 100 % or it is 0%. And I feel like I came out of the womb with that. Nothing, none of that was like gained throughout my childhood. I don't know. It's interesting.
I always see these when I'm reading Saga and I'm seeing Hazel and sort of her journey, I think very vividly about sort of Hazel's sort of what's a tactful way to say this. She's got a potty mouth, I guess is a good way to say this. Like she's very, and she does it outrightly to Elena a lot of times, right? And I think if you go back and read Saga from the very beginning, is sort of Elena's calling card is that she's sort of abrasive in a way.
I don't know if that's the correct way to say it, but she's not afraid to tell you what she thinks, right? Yeah, no, that is definitely true for both characters. But I also find that that's I hear a lot about how filthy Saga's and there's definitely a lot of wall wall swearing. I just think, isn't that everyone's life? Aren't we all doing this? It's like we are. Most of our fiction is kind of neutered from this to be family friendly. But yeah, my kids swear a lot.
And I guess maybe it's now time about our parents. I know for me, was my parents were always like, you don't care if smoke or drink or do any of this, just please no foul language, Brian. And so I have no interest in smoking or drinking and I fucking love to swear. So there is an element to that. But yes, I think what you're saying that that sense of you came out fully cooked as you were is definitely having two kids shows the truth of that.
think because now you have a second one and you're like, I'm raising this one exactly the same as the other one. I am the same person, they're in the same terms, and they are so wildly different. And from Jump Street, that it does feel that, yes, kids come out pretty well cooked. I just spoke about it moment ago. Whenever I recommend Saga to people, which is often, I will tell them the deluxe hardcovers are the way to go for me.
I think that's the ideal way to, I mean, obviously single issues, month to month. is the ideal, I'd say like probably the best way. But if you're going to collect this in like sort of an all in one form, I love the deluxe hardcovers. are just, the back matter is chef's kiss, right?
And one of my favorite blurbs from that first hardcover is when talking about your process of writing a script, you begin by locking yourself inside a wifi -less flop house and begin mapping out everything on these 22 line staple notebooks, which the lines, you know, they sort of parallel the pages in a comic, right? And the line that you have in the hardcover there that always tickled me is, incidentally, most monthly comic books only have 20 pages per issue.
But I don't know how to write like that, at least not until Staples manufactures smaller notebooks, which is I always get, I always get like a true giggle out of that. So my question for you is, is that still true or has your process evolved since writing that in that first hardcover? It's definitely still true for Saga. It's same wifi -less room, same Staples notebooks. I should make it when I say Staples notebooks, not Fiona staples, but the giant conglomerate staples.
But yeah, they these nice little steno notepads and they're 22 lines. And that is just the pace of Saga. It always has been that sort of rigid haiku of roughly five scenes with roughly five panels to page. Yeah, that really works for Saga. But I knew by the time I was starting Spectators, this graphic novel I'm doing with Nico Henrich and I really wanted to try something very different and to have the luxury, yeah, just really to soak in a scene for a long time.
Spectators has one scene that I think is almost 100 pages long and it's been thrilling. So I still tell Saga the way we started and that's, you know, I think with slight variations, that'll be the pace and the tone of it till the end. it's not how I want to tell all of my stories for the rest of my life. So it's been good to force myself to branch out a little bit. Sure. I think it should be important to annotate that Staples not an official sponsor of this episode.
Brian will use Office Depot if they create 22 line notebooks, just as long as it's the 22 lines, right? Please, please. You know, it's funny is that, again, going through those those deluxe hardcovers, the in the first hardcover, it is a lot of scripts. You interview Fiona at one point, I think, which is really interesting. You do a lot of stuff for that first issue.
There's a lot of interesting back matter for the second hardcover, though, I thought was really cool is that and you have this sort of hard, fine rule about Fiona does the covers, right? Fiona does the only cover. There's no variance. And if there are, it's usually like a slight difference for a second printing or something.
Right. And what I found really cool is that in the second hardcover, you reached out to a bunch comic pros that are some of the best in the industry to do sort of a rendition on saga, which I really love. There's Topping Farland, Jim Bartel, your collaborator, Cliff Chang, plenty of people who create these incredible saga. Some are cover, some are double page. Like it's just a, really cool collection. Thank you.
Yeah. It's our first issue had like a retailer variant that had a few and Paul Pope jumped in and did a great one early on. I think Fiona and I just, as we saw everyone, like the market flooding with variant covers, it did feel like, this is going to be a short term gain that is not for the longterm health of the book, which is like these covers really matter. And these covers are not just a marketing tool, but it's always been for us the first panel of this story that you're going to read.
So it really did matter to us. yeah, we're probably leaving some money on the table by not doing 35 variants each issue. But Fiona, think very generously was like, but still it would be fun to see Marcus Martin handle these characters, know, or Pia Guerra jump in or any of our friends. So it was cool. I think we might do that again in a future hardcover with some other artists. But yeah, when it comes to the canonical series, I don't want to say anyone but Fiona on those covers.
Yeah, I don't either. I mean, as much as I've been suckered into a variant here and there, and I think the official stance of the Oblivion Bar podcast is that variants are a bad deal overall because a lot of times they will entice you with creators that you love to buy these one in 25, one in 50 variants. again, I keep buttering you up here, but I'll say it again, I just really revere both you and Fiona for making that decision to have a hard stance. yeah, Saga has what?
Is it six or seven printings for the first issue? I'm not sure what we're up to at this point, but I don't even know. I want to say there's got to be less than 10, but more than seven at least. Right. And you could have very easily told image or anyone and been like, Hey, let's get Tom McFarland to do a, you know, one in 100 ninth printing. And they would sell like gangbusters, but you guys have stuck to the fact that this is you and Fiona's deal. Right.
And you guys will be the kind of the sole creators on this. And again, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier with the stoppage. Right. That's kind of where we're at currently, right? You guys had a little bit of a break between issue 66 and issue 67. I'll speak for readers here again that it's exciting that we're getting 67 there on July 31st, which I think is the week of San Diego Comic -Con, if I'm not mistaken. You know, I forget when Comic -Con is this year.
I'm sorry I'm not going to be there, but I'm too busy writing more Saga. But yes, it's common. The first issue's complete. I'm just proofing it, and it's a good But yeah, thanks. It's nice of you to say. I wish I could say that all of these decisions, like taking a break or not doing variant covers were just out of my artistic integrity. But a lot of it's just being a mercenary as a businessman.
I remember going to the comic shop once when sort of the variant boom was starting and there was a series I was really loving. was like, a new issue is fantastic. And I picked it up and brought it home. was like, it's not a new issue. just a different cover on this issue. And it really hurt my relationship with that book. And it was like, yeah, you do get sort of a short term bump of this. And you know, have nothing against collectors. I'm a nerdy, obsessive collector of comic art.
And I also think, look, if there books out there, whatever it takes to stay alive, and if these covers are helping you stay alive, that's great. But it felt like for Saga, we are asking people, it's a big to join us for over 100 issues of something. So let's not make you buy three of the same thing. Let's just give you everything you need in one package. And if you wanna get a hardcover and a softcover and a digest size thing, you can, but you don't need to.
So what I find really interesting again, is this extensive flushed out series, you are known for this. You're known for the flushed out series that spans over years that seemingly... It's kind of become your calling card in a sense. You why the last man was 60 issues, ex Machina was 50 issues, paper girls was 30. Of course, saga is now at 67 and going strong. However, it's not really a secret that the industry is sort of changing, right?
It's like limited series and maxi series are becoming sort of the new norm, even for career own series, right? So you've always struck me as someone who has their finger on the pulse of the medium, but I'm curious. So what are your thoughts on this? Why do you think the industry is sort of going this way? Well, first of all, the industry is a mystery to me now because it's grown so far beyond what I can read.
So when you say this is the norm, like according to whom, like my kids are reading so many comics on webtoons, you know, or it is a very strange global market with a lot of shapes. But I will agree with you. Yes, the creator owned ongoing is rare.
And I think that just because it's really fucking hard, is, I mean, and again, not as hard as having almost any other job or actual job out there, but in the fake job having world of comics, it is really tough because when you do a creator owned ongoing book, it has to be the mothership, the core of your life. It's going to be your primary job. And think most people are like, I'd rather have like my Marvel or DC book, a steady, dependable gig.
And then when I step out to do some create our own thing, let me test the waters with, you know, six issues of something or do something short. But I was always influenced by Todd McFarland saying that, look, you have to bring readers with you. And if you're like, I'm going to do some Spider -Man, a little spawn on the side. They're not going to read Spawn. They're just going to read Spider -Man. He's like, you have to narrow down.
that sort of access to you that, they can only get you through this thing. So yeah, doing a creator owned ongoing book is saying I'm going to not do anything else other than this for a while. And not only that, but I'm to find partners who are going to come along. And instead of taking the sure payday of working on an existing character, I'm to do this with you. And I'm going to do it potentially for years. It's like it's an insane thing. I can't believe it exists at all, but it is in success.
you know, Invincible, The Boys. Those are two series that I know those guys, neither of them at any stage that they were working on that were like, this is going to be a hit television show someday. They were just like, one foot in front of the other and tell this vast story. And I think they found that most young people, this is what they want. That I my kids aren't super interested in movies because they've gotten to watch every season of The Office. and every episode of The Office.
And if you do that, like over the course of two weeks, The Office, which is for me like a fun, nice sitcom is like their war and peace. They get to watch characters age and change and grow. And it's like, this is an unbeatable experience. So I think, yeah, people are like, Saga, can buy this compendium. This is awesome. And they finish them like, give me the next one. And like, that's the only problem with ongoing is They want it all now. It's going to take us years to make another one of those.
But yeah, I don't know. This is another long -winded rambling way of saying it's tough and it will be rare because it's tough, but it's the best thing in the world when it works. And so I hope more people will be brave enough to try it. After you've found some success, maybe at Marvel and DC or maybe if you haven't and just like, want to take a big swing, but go out there and know that plan like we did for Saga. I told Fiona, was like, This is going to get canceled. No one wants this.
No one wants a book that doesn't have superheroes, that has full frontal robot nudity. This isn't for anybody. So just know, probably around issue number six is going to get canceled. But we're going to have forever on our shelf this volume one of one that will always be like, remember when we did that bat -shaped crazy comic and how crazy it would be? If there were an alternate, a parallel earth where we're still writing it, now we are in that parallel earth and we're still making it.
So it feels good. Yeah. Let's go ahead and cue up the camera to Fiona's art studio where she's currently shackled to her Jack Kirby art board, working on future issues of saga. Cause she is like you said, you've gotten her to saga, right? She's done covers and she's done like, you know, some of the Archie stuff. But I think as long as I've known Fiona's career. It seems like she's been so intrinsically tied to saga. Yeah, and I'm sure she's aching to break free of that.
It's like it's such a drag to be an artist, whereas, you know, I can write much slower than I used to be, but I can do something else. can write 250 pages of Spectators as I'm writing saga. It's much harder for Fiona to do, but not impossible. And I think she's she works really hard. And so I wouldn't be surprised to see things other than saga from her in the future. But this week, at least, she sure is working hard on saga. And I'm the beneficiary of that. These pages are absurd.
Well, I'm curious, while we're kind of on the topic, what have you learned from I've heard you talk about how you love endings, like the ending part of these stories is something that you often look forward to. And obviously, you've worked on a lot of long running stories that, in my opinion, have nailed the ending. So I'm curious, what have you learned about writing an ending specifically with, again, these long form narratives? thank you, first of all, because I know it is not always the case.
The challenge of endings is knowing that a lot of people are going to be deeply upset by this, that endings are hard. And it's like to land in a way that will please everyone is impossible. But you just have to stay true to the story. And I guess that's the thing that I've most learned is that endings really that there have been plenty of times over the years where I'm like, boy, I have more to say about Why the Last Man or The Private Eye is a book I think about all the time.
And I was like, I could so easily step back into that world. But I don't want to because I'm not writing or exploring worlds. They're just an imaginary thing. just like people and I like following their stories. And it really matters what the last issue of Ex Machina is. You might hate it. But it matters that that's the end and that we're not coming back to tell more.
And there's not going to be a mini series that will wrap up or explore some unfinished things that I'd like stories having beginning, middle and end. And again, we live in a sort of world where that's scary because it's like, well, why end something? Why close that door? so hard to make something that people respond to. Leave it open so we can go back to this. I don't want to. It is time to go and tell another story. So that's what I've learned is It really counts and there's no going back.
So try not to fuck it up. If there's a one thing that you're going to get from a right Brian cave on story, it's finality or, you know, I would say conviction is another maybe another word. Like you said it here and I agree with you 100 % as someone who's been following your career for quite a long time. seems like something happens in a story. There's usually no like, oops, just kidding.
The only thing I can think of actually, the only, there's only one time in, in my reading of your work that that's happened was lying cat. And I think it was like issue six or seven. She is flung out of a ship and there's a there's a rumor and I'm curious. I'm going to ask you. This wasn't a question I have, but I'm curious why I have you right in front of me. There was a rumor that when you presented as a Fiona, she had threatened to quit the book if we kill if you killed Lion Cat.
Is that correct? Or was that is that like a hearsay? She didn't tune quick, but she did say, that's cute ending that you have her. But I'm going to draw in the next issue when we see Lion Cat get blown out of an airlock. Her little collar activates and a space helmet is gonna come over and then she's just gonna paddle back to the ship and be fine. She's like, that was just one point where she's like, nope, not following you down this path.
And then to let her know, don't worry, that Lion Cat, unlike many of our characters, does have nine lives and she's been through a lot. And probably she'll be A -OK until the end of the series, right? And so boost so everyone you love. Brian, don't say that. Well, I have one final question for you before I let you go. And it ties back to folks like you and I who adore picking the brains of creatives.
There's this book that you put out or you didn't put out, but you contributed to from 2004 called Writers on Comic Script Writing. And you are on the cover of volume two. And at one point you were asked in this book about your one millionth And you sort of make fun of yourself for why the last man and not being as an original idea as you had originally thought of when you came up with it. And you said something here that I wanted to highlight.
You say, there are no new ideas, just new extensions of old ideas. So my final question for you, Brian, is 20 years later with all the acclaim that you've garnered with the passage of time behind you since saying that, is there any part of that statement that still rings true? Yeah, I think that's still legit. I mean, I worry that I think a lot of people say, every there are no new ideas. So I think they use that as an excuse to retreat back into.
So I might as well write my Sherlock Holmes story if there is something, you know, if there's nothing new. And I don't think that's the case. think Saga, you know, is a book that's created a lot for how imaginative and out there and weird. But at the end of the day, it's Romeo and Juliet. You know, it's what if you took two people? from two worlds that hate each other and you just shift instead of them offing themselves at the end. What if that is just the beginning?
So I recognize that is not particularly novel or interesting. I think what makes it different is Fiona and I, that we are trying to pour this, as much of ourselves, into this work. And I think it really benefited from the very beginning, telling Fiona, like, I don't want to do a story about parenthood. I don't want to do a story that's just for people who have kids. I want to do something for people that's just about how fucking hard it is to bring something new into the world, whatever that is.
That's a song or a pie or a child. It's tough. The world doesn't want new things. And Yeah, I think that young, slightly less bald guy was on the right path 20 years ago. Don't be afraid that, you know, you do characters with TV heads and then you find out how many TV headed characters there have been over the last 50 years and realize, OK, it's all right.
Everything's been done, but they haven't done this story that I'm doing with this TV headed character because so much of it is based on my friends and my life and my collaborators. Yes, don't be afraid that what you're doing is not new. It will be because it's you. I love that. And we've spent this entire conversation talking about saga. And the very first line in saga is this is how an idea becomes real.
And I just found that very full circle that going back to this book where you're very much in and why the last man towards, you know, the beginning ish stages of your career. And then we flash forward to saga, which I mean, I would I would dare to say that that's maybe your most successful title thus far. And it just feels very full circle. I just, love that so much. I wanted to bring that up and sort of pick your brain on that.
Yeah. That line is both that opening line, Hazel's narration and her mother's response of am I shitting? That's what saga is about. And that's what my career is about. And that's what my life has been about. That I am not a novelist. I don't know how to do this alone. that I need somebody else and to have this sort of kernel of an idea for Saga, it just felt like impossible. This is something that can't be done without a partner.
And you need a partner there to sort of, when you have this moment, it feels like we're giving birth to something, someone to let you know, is this shit or did we just help give birth to something new? And yeah, it has been as thrilling as getting that first page from Fiona, knowing like, this might. work. We might have done this. This is how an idea becomes real. It's very cool. Thank you for still remembering that line all these years later. I'm glad it worked. was the intent.
You know, it's funny is that in a much smaller scale, Aaron and I, when we created the Oblivion Bar, we did it as sort of a vehicle to talk about things that we loved, movies, comics, television, video games, talking to folks who create the things that we love, all those sort of aspects sort of combined with our two personalities. We always say that the Oblivion Bar has has my looks and his personality.
And I think that if if I was to try to do this show alone, obviously, I'm talking to you alone, but most of the episodes of the of the Oblivion Bar, including interviews are with him and I together. And I think if I tried to do this alone, it just would not work. It would not be at all the same. And it is truly the collaborative venture is one of the most fulfilling. I know I don't I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
But I just think it's worth reiterating and worth celebrating in that sense. And that's why we love comics. Right. Like it is the most collaborative. medium or I mean, I don't know if it's the most, but it's the one that I love the most, I guess. It can be. It's interesting. It's also one medium where you don't need like Daniel Klaus can do it all and do it better than I can.
There are and yet there is something magical that can happen with this collaboration between a tight band of people that's as cool as the best solo act out there. So I'm grateful for this medium every day. Brian, it was an absolute pleasure having you here on the Oblivion Bar podcast. I'm gonna sort of let the facade float away for just a quick moment and say what a treat it has been being your fan for all these years.
I've just been such a huge fan of your work, Why the Last Man, Ex Machina, Pride of Baghdad, Paper Girls. But specifically, and I'm sure that's come across in our conversation today, saga has meant so much to me. So anytime someone comes to me and says, I wanna get into comics, where do I start? What's your recommendation? I don't hand them Batman or Spider -Man. I give them saga because I'm excited to get that text down the road where they're like, holy crap, this is something very special.
So it means a lot to me to be able to tell you that. It means a lot to have you here on the show. And I just so hope that at some point down the road, maybe at the end of Saga, we can get together again and talk about it. It is 100%. It is a deal. And I so enjoy the podcast. So just before I was listening to a couple of previous episodes, it's like, this Tom King interview. This is the best Tom King interview I've ever heard. You guys are making new your homework.
And thank you for just treating this nonsense so seriously. And also just congrats on your fight that you are waging right now. It's very brave and overwhelming and terrifying for me to think of the fact that you are able to talk about comics as you're doing all this. You're something else. So keep it up. Thank you very much. This is what keeps me going. The Oblivion Bar is the greatest creative outlet I've ever experienced. So moments like It makes it easy in a sense.
But before I let you go, I'm going to pass the baton off to you one more time. Is there anything that you want to plug or highlight before we let you go? Well, at CESA Saga returns in end of July. So please head to your local comic book shop to pick that up. And then Spectators, I mentioned, is this massive 300 plus page graphic novel or will be when it's done that I'm doing with Nico Henrichen, who I did Pride of Baghdad with.
And we do it through Substack, our weird address is just called Exploding Giraffe. So if you Google Exploding Giraffe, a reference to Pride of Baghdad will take you here. You can read it 100 % for free. And yeah, we hope to have some news in the not too distant future about it maybe finally coming to print. For those of you who hate digital comics and just want to hold something in your hand, we're here for you. It's coming. Stay tuned. Awesome. Brian, thank you so much.
again, hopefully we'll talk to here on the Abloving Bar down the line. It's a date. Thanks again, Chris. All righty. There's that conversation with Brian K. Vaughn. Once again, thank you so, so much, Brian, for coming on to the show. Absolutely adore that interview. Adore that man. I will say I just that that bald man is one of my favorite bald men ever. I hope he's OK with that. He does talk about it in the conversation, so he does. think he's I think he's a pretty well -humored individual.
He seems like he's got he's got he's like a very down to earth guy. Yes, amazing, like led like literally a legend. but just down to earth and like, so again, I got to say this. You nailed this interview, man. You nailed this interview. And you even gave me a shout out at the end. You broke my little heart. I felt so special. I really loved the entire interview from talking to him. Again, he dropped the F -bomb in the beginning, which kind of like, got to set the tone. And then, then, yeah.
And then he's like, yeah, he's like, my kid's Gus. Fuck it. You know, like I was like, hell yeah, this guy's awesome. One of my favorite parts, absolutely though, was just the fact Not only the story of you talking about when you first met him and the self the selfie story. Yeah, I'm call it the selfie story. That was infamous. But yeah, he just genuinely I don't know you guys just like genuinely kind of like we're two dudes talking. We're gelling. Yeah, you're just gelling.
You know, you could fill it in your jellies and I was feeling my jellies. You fell in your jellies and it's such a good conversation because it was just like again, like you talk about all the time, you know, you and I talk about this all the time that that ratatat that that rhythm. you know, that that feeding off of each other and you just goddamn, your interview skills in this one were just peak.
And the fact that that Brian Cave on said that we had one of the best interviews with Tom King ever that he's ever heard. Just put that on a vocal track and then broadcast it on my grave when I'm dead. Yeah, that's all I want. Yeah. It was like, holy shit, like this man. He's like talking about how he listened to several episodes beforehand. Holy shit. Like that's that's fucking insane. Like, you know, he us that we did a good we do a good job here at the bar.
And man, talk about setting a new bar. Right. That's right. Yeah. But yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think what I love about this is that I often have to sort of force myself to not hype these folks up so much because I adore almost every career that we have here on the show. I am a giant fan of. Right. And I have to tell myself internally, dude. Chill out. These are just people. They're just really creative nerds. Just talk to them like a person.
Right. And when I had Brian on here, not for one moment. And I told you this after like, I think I text you right after the conversation. I was like, not for one moment did I feel nervous in this conversation. You didn't seem it at all. Yeah. And the video will be up on YouTube. If you are more of a visual creature, this interview will be up on YouTube the moment that this is out.
So you can go watch that and you can tell like, like you said, I appreciate you saying that it's pretty obvious that he and I are just kind We're having a great conversation. And I can't remember if I'd mentioned it in the conversation or not, but we had a similar moment at San Diego and San Diego 2022, where he and I just happened to be next to each other at a bar at the Hilton next to the San Diego Comic -Con Convention Center.
And we just clicked, which is why I wanted to really have him on the show. And they always say, don't meet your heroes. Brian is the, he proves that that notion wrong. think you, I know you've mentioned before on the show, but during the interview, I don't believe it was mentioned, but I mean, either way, like you could just tell, like there's a rapport there and it's great. Well, thank you again, Brian.
Thank you everybody who listened to that conversation, who came over to listen to this conversation with Brian. It's funny because we put out one of my favorite interviews the moment we're about to be off for a couple of months. I'm to come back all rusty. Like I said earlier, it's just going to get worse from here. So you won't, you won't. We're going be doing things like that's the thing. Like, you know, I feel like the thing that we need to tell people.
Especially like our Patreon members like yes, we're to pause the Patreon. So we're not taking your money while we're gone. Right. But this is the time for us to step back. Reflect on what we've done over the last four years. take it. We've done this for four years, Aaron. Four years, man. Just take a step back again. This isn't like people are cool. Are they coming back? Absolutely. Yeah, there's no question we are. We're coming back. This is not foreshadowing for anything.
No, no. Stay tuned on the socials. You're going to see some shit. Hold on to your hold on to your butts, you know, like you're gonna you're gonna don't look at the t -rex the eyes because their their vision is based on movement Yeah, know don't run to the port of body don't run the port of bodies a when you got to go you got to go Just be prepared, you know be prepared Anyways, the point is that we're gonna be here.
You're gonna see us on social media maybe not The oblivion bar, it's going to be kind of a little bit of a pause, but you're going to see some hints that to when we're coming back exactly some new things popping up. But stay tuned to I know we're still going to be active on our own social media. So feel free to reach out to us there as well. That's at C Hacker for one on Twitter and Instagram. Yep. Yep. Yep. And for for me, it's a at Better Actions and Twitter at Better Actions TTV on Instagram.
But yeah, what else we got, Chris? No, you got it. mean, I think that's pretty much surmises at all. We love this show so much. We are taking a little bit of a break. You know, it's funny because Brian sort of talks about how he and Fiona purposely take these sort of extended breaks to keep the band together. Right. Didn't even think about that. Yeah. He thinks like, yeah, because you got to like, I mean, it's like a relationship, you know, well, I probably shouldn't say that. You think spicy.
You got to keep things spicy. yeah, like a working relationship, if you work very close proximity to somebody with hard. deadlines and cons. You thought I was gonna say something else. Hard deadlines and, you know, just a constant churning of of, you know, day to day that day to day grind. You're gonna get tired of the other person. You're gonna get tired of your team. But I think are you saying that you're tired of me right now? Is that what you're trying to say? Not at all.
But I do feel like you may not feel it. Maybe you don't feel it. Maybe it's like something that gets kind of like it's subconscious. It's subconscious. But I don't feel like that. But at the same time, I totally understand. We have things to do. You're going to you're going to finish up chemo. You're going to come back strong. I'm starting a new job, hopefully, hopefully soon. So it's going to give me some time to kind of like get into that and figure out what my schedule is going to be like.
You know, it's going to be a good time for us to focus on what we have to focus on individually. And then we can step forward and almost again, like break out of this cocoon and you know, we're going to, we're going to go from Caterpie to Butterfree. think what's cocoon in there first. We gotta be cocoon. Right. I know. But I'm like, I'm saying you're like, we're this, this break will be the cocoon. sure. Okay. Gotcha. What's that? What's Butterfree sound in the anime?
No, Butterfree is like, no, that's took a bit. Damn it. Butterfree is like Butterfree is like, yeah, I just screams. My favorite is Starmie. is it? A crabby. All right, we can just sit here and just do anime Pokemon sounds forever. But the overarching last thing we'll say is We love the Oblivion Bar. We can't wait to come back in the fall. We're going to come back better than ever. Like Aaron said, we're turning the knobs from behind the scenes. Some things are going to be happening.
You guys will see those very soon. And I would just say as sort of a, know, if you made it this far into the conversation, we'll just say that, you know, think the week of New York Comic -Con, Aaron, well, you know, maybe something happens. Maybe something happening there. Probably. We'll see. I don't know. But yes, more than likely. All right, everybody. Thank you so much again. Thank you so much again. I'm trying to close out the show. I'm trying to get out of here.
I know he's just trying to keep it going. we going to closing time? No, we're not closing. Yeah, it's not closing. Well, mean, closed and reopened. But yeah, we'll be back, everybody. I think we said it about a billion times. We will be back. So that'll do it for episode one sixty five. When we come back with episode one sixty six, you'll see why we hopefully we haven't overhyped this. And that's something I'm really nervous about now is that we've sort You've hyped it up too much.
What do you think? can't. No, no, no, no, no, it's good. It's good. We've seen it. We know it's we know it's happening. We know that's cool. So all right, buddy. That'll do it for episode one sixty five. Aaron, take us out of here. All right. Subscribe to our podcast. This feels weird. You can still subscribe. Please do. Yeah. Subscribe to our podcast. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Audible, Heart Radio. Wherever you listen, your favorite podcast. That's where we'll be. to go to YouTube.
Subscribe to our channel. Go to Apple Podcasts. Go to Spotify. Click those subscription buttons. to be aware of when we're back. Okay. So thank you to our patrons. And again, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much to our patrons. We will come back with plenty for you. They just, if you guys keep an eye on the socials, like they're posting these care packages that we sent out recently, which were labors of love, most mostly on Chris's part.
I was there for moral and ethical and emotional support for that. Racial support. But yeah, but we love, you know, we want to say thank you again, as we take a step back to our patrons. We appreciate you being there and you will see more soon.
Alex, Aaron, Alice, Bada from Short Box, Brad B, Cassidy, Chris in the Bada Boom Pod, Chris Y, Christie, Danny, David, Elliot, George, Craig from First Issue Club, Haley, Ham Six, Jake from Spec Tales, Jake S, Jeremy, Jenny, Kyle, Losey, Mac, Miles, Mike, Olivia, Robert, Sean from I used to like this one, Travis, Zach and Brad and Lisa from Comic Couples Counseling. Thank you so much. you so, so, so, so, so, so much for being. patrons.
If you want to support the show without spending any money, a five star rating and or review on Apple podcasts and Spotify helps the show a ton. You have no idea how much your rating will help us. it's the algorithm. Yeah. Most free thing you can do is just give us a rating. Follow us on social media, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Blue Sky and threads at oblivion bar pod. And like I said, for Chris, it's at see hacker 41 for myself. It's at better actions.
for Twitter at Better Actions TTV for Instagram because some asshole on Instagram will not give up at Better Actions. It's me. I have it. I'm just holding it over your head. Not even fucking posting anything. What an asshole. Official merch of the show. I'm sorry. He's not an ass. don't even know. sure he's a nice guy. He's a fucking saint. Official merch of the show can be found at our website, oblivionbarpodcast .com. Thank you, Kevin Siegler for all of our oblivion bar art.
He's at the Ziggs on Instagram. Thank you, Dream Kid for all of our musical themes. Thank you, DJ Skywrack for grid theme. Also, want to special shout out to Elliot. What's his handle for for our art as well? don't know. I'm so sorry. He's obviously a good friend of the show, patron, but Elliot Dixon is his full name on social media. So if you look him up there, you'll find it. Great artist. Appreciate all of his work that he's done for us. Both of our New York Comic Con and C2E2 posters.
We'll have another one of those, I'm sure. Maybe for New York this year. Absolutely. Last but not least. And this means a lot to us. Don't forget to tip your bartenders 20 % or more. We said it from the beginning. Don't be a dick while we're away. Everyone. We won't be able to tell you every week to tip your bartenders and servers 20%. So don't be a dick. Just do it. we know we're like Santa. I'll be watching. I'm watching you. I'm watching you. I'm watching.
Also, I love the new living room furniture. It looks great from the backyard. You're a tip 20 % or else I'm going to steal that couch. I'm going to steal that couch. Looks soft as shit. All right, Thank you so much for listening to the Ablohomar Podcast. We'll see you in a few months here for episode 166.