Getting present and sober with Ellie Crowe

To find out more information on this , go to isabellafergusoncomau . And then what I am offering is Unwind Book Club . This is a community for people who are on the alcohol-free journey and are looking for that next step further support , further coaching . So we have community coaching and a book that we read over two months .

It's been amazing so far , and our next intake is July 1st . So if you're interested in finding out more , please go to unwindbookclubcom . Unwind is U-N-W-I-N-E-D . Now I'll get on to introducing our guest today . It is Ellie Crow of Present and Sober Podcast .

Ellie is a this Naked Minds senior certified coach and a certified grey area drinking coach who helps women in midlife find true freedom by ditching the wine and connecting back with themselves and their deep yearning . I was lucky enough to go on retreat recently and I went with Ellie and a bunch of other women .

We had such a great time and so many laughs and I really wanted to get Ellie on to have a chat , so please welcome today's guest , ellie Crow .

What was happening prior to that was that I'd always seen myself just very much as a social drinker , and when I was socialising I drank a lot , but so did everybody else . So you know it was all the badge of honour kind of stuff . And I remember a friend of mine and you know it's all the badge of honor kind of stuff . And I remember a friend of mine .

She's a doctor and she would have these major exams to do and she always joked that she kind of did better on these exams after . You know the hideous night out that we'd had the night before and all of this . So it was very much all of that and I never considered it to be in any way shape or form an issue .

But my relationship with booze really changed after kids and I'm not blaming the children , but life gets very , very different when you so I'd been traveling the world with my job , which I absolutely loved , and again that was booze field . You're up at all hours traveling different time zones , taking people out for dinner and entertaining them .

So booze was just soaked through everything . But the shift was that it went from being a social thing to being a means of coping , and by that I mean relaxation at the end of the day . A means of coping , and by that I mean relaxation at the end of the day . Oh , I've had a really long day . I'm knackered . I deserve a reward and I want to .

With having three kids , the thing that I was after was I just wanted to melt into the sofa . I wanted everybody to stop fucking asking me for stuff Yep , just leave me alone . I wanted that racing mind to stop , because all the while that I'm bringing up these kids , I'm trying to run a business at the same time and we didn't have any social support .

So I was intermittently experiencing like periods of stress with work and I just I had this association with booze . Oh , that's the thing that relaxes me , and I never , ever questioned it . And so over time , it just became this .

Really , I didn't realize how insidious it was , but this insidious habit and you know , you and I being well-versed in how alcohol works with the brain and body , we know why that's the case , but at the time it just seemed so natural and normal to me . But at the time it just seemed so natural and normal to me .

And when I looked around for the social proof , everybody else is doing the same thing . We often hear people say , oh , I've had a bad day , I really need a drink . It's the first thing that people often say . Or when people are celebrating something , booze is in the mix , isn't it ? So for me , the shift was very much to those two things .

It was means of relaxation and it was God I've had . I've either had a really good day , a really bad day . I deserve a drink , I deserve a way to check out .

And so that patterning was laid down and ingrained through many , many nights of putting children to bed and then going downstairs getting a wine glass out and only ever really intending on having that one glass of wine at the start of the evening .

And then , before I know it , you know I've gone through possibly a bottle , and towards the end , you know I'd wake up on a morning and go down to the fridge and be like , oh , I only had half a bottle last night . Oh no , you didn't , ellie .

What you had was a bottle and a half , and so the waking up in the morning then became low level hangover and I just got used to feeling substandard every morning and so I'd be like , oh , I'm not doing that again later on today . You know I started doing that thing of making the rules around . Well , I'll only drink on a weekend .

And so I'd start off the day feeling crap , feeling hungover , having to go to these fucking baby groups . Like you know , sing and sign . Actually , I loved sing and sign . That was the one I did enjoy . You know you go to these things and then I'm having to work around the edges .

You know you go to these things and then I'm having to work around the edges , and I had at one point I had two under two , which is really really tough . Anyone that's got more than one child , that's that age like it's .

It's fucking hard , especially when you haven't got any help around you trying to maintain a household , manage your finances , all the lifey stuff . So there I'd be , hanging at baby group and then by the middle of the day I'd start to feel a bit better and then early afternoon it'd be like , oh yeah , but wouldn't it be nice to have a little drink ?

Maybe just have the one , and then I'd be worn out towards the end of the day and then I would need I would seemingly need that means of being able to check out again . So there I'd be , putting the kids to bed and then the routine starts all over again .

And it wasn't until you know some time of doing that that I started to question it , in that God you know like , I seem to be drinking more than I used to . I don't really like it . I'm kind of worried about my health . I'm approaching 40 .

And , as I said , introducing these rules , these attempts at moderation , and then kind of wondering , well , why is this so bloody difficult ? And the thing that was threaded through all of this was hormonal challenges . So after my son , I really struggled postnatally . I don't know that I had .

I don't think I had postnatal depression , but I was diagnosed at one point with something called PMDD , which is premenstrual dysphoric . Struggled postnatally . I don't know that I had , I don't think I had postnatal depression , but I was diagnosed at one point with something called PMDD , which is premenstrual dysphoric disorder .

Anybody that's heard of that or knows of it or has been unfortunate to suffer with it , it's really debilitating . It's like a really extreme form of PMS leaves people feeling homicidal , suicidal . It's really really quite extreme and , I think , for women particularly well . I couldn't really only talk about being a woman because I'm in a female gender body .

I think there's a lot of shame attached to feelings of anger , rage , and so I recognised there was this volatility . It didn't feel like me . I often felt like I was having an out of body experience , you know , and I would feel such intense levels of emotion , but I had no idea what to do with it and I was really afraid of going and talking to my GP .

I did in the end , and this is where the diagnosis came from . But the reason I was afraid of going was because I didn't want to be . I didn't want to be labelled as anything . I didn't want to have additional layers of shame , even if that was self-generated by having some kind of a condition , and I certainly didn't want to take antidepressants .

I was really anti that because of when I was very young I was only about 20 , my father died and in the midst of the grief I'd gone to my doctor . I was just really struggling . I was in my final year of university and they gave me antidepressants . Now I didn't need antidepressants . I needed assistance and support with allowing grief to flow through me .

But that wasn't what was on offer . What was on offer was antidepressants . It was back in the day where I was . I can't remember the name of it , but it was an antidepressant that was then removed from the market for guess what , making people homicidal . So I had a really bad experience with that , and that was .

You know that that had made me fearful of going there again . So my initial visit to the doctor was here Would you like some antidepressants ? No , thank you very much . And I went on and struggled for a few months more and then it just got to the point where I couldn't do it anymore .

I was so , I was just done , and I remember sitting in the doctor's office , my two kids playing at my feet both under two at the time I think they were , and I might've been a little bit older and I was looking at these kids and I was thinking like they deserve better than this , they deserve more .

And then my next thought was they'd be better off without me . Like , well , what a fucking thing to think as a , as a mom , you know , but that's how low I was . That's like I was so depleted and so at that point that was when I was like I'm just fucking surrendering now , like I don't give me all the antidepressants in the world , I don't fucking care .

Uh , cause I couldn't see anywhere through . And in this visit I was prescribed antidepressants and the the GP said to me cause she was prescribing , and at that moment when I decided I was taking them , there was kind of like a sigh of relief because there was some chink of light , you know , some opportunity to to change my situation .

She said to me how much do you do you drink ? I said yes . She said how much do you drink ? And because I was so dazed , I forgot to lie , because that's what you do when you go to your doctor you half it and then you half it again , don't you ? And you lie about how much you drink . I didn't .

I told her how much I was drinking and this lovely , middle-aged and middle-class Cambridgeshire lady looked very shocked and she said , well , you need to cut down . And I thought , oh , yeah , I probably do . But like , how do you do that ?

So I left her office feeling a little bit scolded and a little bit silly and thought , well , yeah , but I don't know how to do that Now . Interestingly , when I started taking the antidepressants , it allowed me to just get my head above water and so with that change in how I felt , I was able to employ different things in my life .

I went to see a really good cognitive behavioral therapist , dealt with my anxiety , ignited my yoga practice , and that was a huge thing for me , not just the physical aspect of my yoga practice but the full thing . I did some gut health work .

So what naturally happened over that period of time was that my alcohol consumption naturally went down because I was doing these other things . So at this point again didn't really feel too problematic . It didn't feel problematic at all . And then I fell pregnant with my third one , and that was the pregnancy where I really missed drinking . I massively missed it .

I'd be like looking at everybody else longing . I remember we had a really hot summer and it's my birthday . So we had this party . I was heavily pregnant , had a party , kind of like a last hurrah before the next baby comes , celebrate my birthday .

Everyone was drinking , paddling pool , not full of water for the two kids to play in full of ice to hold all of the booze . I'm not fucking kidding you . That was it . It was ridiculous and everyone was pissed and I was just .

There's a picture of me sitting on an inflatable chair with my feet upon an inflatable stool , heavily pregnant , looking entirely pissed off . Because they're all having a great time and there I am , you know , with my whatever my soft drink is . So that gives you a sense of like just how wedded I was to other beliefs .

Like I need alcohol to have fun , I need alcohol to socialize because , as I said at the beginning , it was very much a social thing for me . Every single social occasion it was present and if it wasn't , um , if it wasn't the main activity , we'd make it the main activity , you know .

So after my last one this is when I think it was quite fast you know , we hear about when you use alcohol as a means of self-medication , and I don't necessarily mean like at the very extreme end , and I don't necessarily mean to medicate pain , I just mean to try and change our feeling state , to try and have ourselves feel better .

A feeling state to try and have ourselves feel better . Then the descent is faster because of the way that alcohol works with the pleasure circuit of the brain and so , unwittingly , I was accelerating the dependence . I suppose I don't like really saying that , because it sounds like you know we kind of term that with like oh , and then you're an alcoholic .

But it was a dependence , like , if I look at it in the cold light of day , I was relying on it at the end of the day and I didn't like that . I didn't like being beholden to this substance , but I had no fucking idea what to do about it .

So I was really really lucky in that I , totally by accident , stumbled upon this Naked Mind . It was a Facebook ad and it's a cut down version of this Naked Mind , the book , and it's a PDF called the Six Vital Things that you Need To Know About Moderation According To Science .

Now , of course , because I'm trying to moderate badly , it's like , ah , that's interesting . Moderation , right . What do I need to know about moderation then ? And the science aspect ? Well , I'm a questioner , so , for me , if I can understand how something works and why I'm sold .

So , with trepidation , I read this PDF and this was the first time that I'd learned how alcohol works with the brain and body and , importantly , that main belief that I had around alcohol and relaxation . It proved to me that in non-certain terms , that it was entirely false .

And not only was it wrong that it didn't relax me , it was actually exacerbating and potentially causing the stress in my life . I was highly stressed , highly anxious all the time . Well , it's no fucking wonder when you've got exacerbated , you know excess levels of stress , hormones , cortisol and adrenaline circulating in your body .

So I was like fuck , this is a fucking scam , like shit . And I was incensed . I can't believe this . And so in that moment it was the weirdest moment , it was like a magic trick . It was like my desire to drink went in a moment , in an instant .

And I remember being dumbfounded by this , because the day before , if that had been a non-weekend day and I was telling myself , oh , I can't drink today because it's a Wednesday , I'd have been fucking miserable . I'd have felt like I was missing out , depriving myself , wishing my life away to get to the weekend .

And yet there I was on this Wednesday let's call it Wednesday and I'm like I just don't want to drink . And I'd never felt that before because I'd coveted alcohol for so long . So what did I do ? I just quietly stopped drinking . I was still with my husband at the time . I didn't tell him . I just stopped drinking and I was like God , this is weird .

And about a week later , because I was on Annie's email list , I then received an invitation to the January 2020 live alcohol experiment and at first I remember thinking like what the hell is this all about ? And I was kind of intrigued . But it was $47 , $47 US dollars and I was like , oh well , I can't spend that on myself .

And then I went hang on a minute , I can't spend $47 on myself . Well , I also thought for many , many years , alcohol relaxed me and I was wrong about that . So maybe I can be wrong about spending $47 on myself .

And so I decided I'd spend this $47 and then got into the alcohol experiment , and anybody that's been through it will know that the beginning part of the alcohol experiment is a level of pre-work and this is all mindful drinking . I've never done that before . I've never drank and paid attention to what happens , and it's kind of interesting because I didn't .

As I said , I didn't have any desire to drink anymore . However , there were three occasions . So this is middle of December . There were three occasions in the lead up to and just after Christmas where I chose to drink , and it was utterly mind-blowing what I discovered about the other beliefs that I had about booze . I liked the taste .

I used to have all these expensive bottles of wine and champagne , thinking I was some kind of wine connoisseur . I realised I don't like the taste . Oh my God , you're not incredible . I like the way it makes me feel , oh , or like that tipsy feeling .

Well , christmas Eve , wrapping the presents with my champagne , I realised , actually , I don't fucking like it at all . It feels horrible . It doesn't enhance the experience , it detracts from it . Wow . So that Christmas I had the first Christmas day other than pregnancy and childhood , entirely sober , and it was amazing .

And I was entirely present with my kids , and it was wonderful . I didn't feel tired and sluggish all day . And so I was amassing these experiences of both mindful drinking that was allowing me to bust my beliefs , and also having these alcohol-free experiences of like who knew ? This is actually better when you're not telling yourself that you're missing out .

This is better . Oh my God , who knew ? And so , prior to January , I had no reason left to drink . Don't like the taste , don't like the way it makes me feel , doesn't relax me , I'm not sure , actually , that it's more fun . So it's like , well , what's the fucking point then ? So I went into the alcohol experiment and I was done .

I was done and I got a couple of weeks in and I was so passionate about what I was learning and the transformation that I was seeing , not just in me but in the thousands of other people that were in the group , and the transformation I was seeing not just in me but in the thousands of other people that were in the group , that I was like , right , there

are so many women like me that are at sing and sign group dying because they're so hung over and they're so fed up , and I don't want anybody else to continue to feel like that , because I know what that feels like and it's shit and it's not necessary .

There's this much more fulfilling life where you can actually be present to your life and be there for not just yourself but your children , your family , in a really different way . And so I had no idea how I was going to do it , but I decided I was going to be a coach .

I'm just going to find out , like I was looking at these coaches that were coaching the lab . I'm going to do that . I'm going to do that . Coaches that were coaching the lab . I'm going to do that . I'm going to do that .

And , by divine hand , the end of January , an email comes in from Annie , and it was basically saying that it was the first time that she was going to open this Naked Mind Institute online . So , prior to that , she'd trained one group of coaches , the OG .

She'd trained them in person the year before , and this was the first time she was going to open it up online . And so I had a voice telling me oh , who are you to do that ? And I was like fuck you , I'm doing this .

And so I signed up , and then I was away , and so that summer of 2020 , where we went into lockdown , of course , that was when I was training with Annie , and so I did my initial certification with her . I then went on to train with a lady called Jolene Park , who's famous for her gray area drinking training .

Well , actually , sorry , she's more famous for her TED talk about gray area drinking , but I know a lot of us coaches have been through her gray area drinking training . So I did all of that and then set my coaching practice up . I've been coaching . I started out doing a lot of one-to-one . I don't do so much one-to-one these days .

I do a lot of small group work . That's really the place that I love to play and I get a lot out of that personally , but it's just incredible to see what can happen when groups of people get together and are willing to be vulnerable and to look in this kind of direction . So that's that's the piece that I really love . And then the um .

Obviously you have the podcast . You were one of our guests very , very recently , and so that I buddied up with a guy called Sam Goldfinch , who is also this Naked Mind coach . I met him when we were training with Jolene and his business was the Sober Rebellion . My business was Pump Up the Present .

It was all about elevating the only thing that you have the present moment . And so he phoned me up one day and he said I think we should do a podcast together and I've got a name for it . He said it's called Present and Sober and I was like that's so fucking cool . Yes , let's do it . And so here we are .

We're kicking the ass of a million downloads , oh my God . And we should be tipping any day . Now we should be tipping into the top one and a half percent podcast globally . So it's like , yeah , how the fuck did that happen ? So it's like , yeah , how the fuck did that happen ? But but this is the thing and this is the thing I want everyone to know .

When you like it doesn't matter whether you want to be a coach or whether you want to host a podcast , that's irrelevant what , what's open to you by looking in this direction , by removing something like alcohol from your life , like everything , like god , god , this endless opportunity .

I had no idea how I was keeping myself small and restricting myself and my life by being , you know , in this kind of sleepwalking state with booze . So it's incredible what can happen . You know it's not for the faint-hearted , but like if you're feeling that calling to like something here , then all of the discomfort of growth is worth it , time and time over .

I can't even comprehend that because , uh , yeah , I've got the 10 year age gap , like well , from my youngest and oldest , so we're complete opposite on that . But that is , it is full-on parenting little tiny ones and it's really sad that you got to that point of thinking they'd be better off without you . But look where you are now .

So , amazingly , you shifted that . But and I was talking to someone today about , you know , with our kids and I know yours were younger , so , hopefully , well , they're going to mainly remember you as a non-drinker .

But I was talking about my kids and before we do this work , you know there is a lot of shame and blame that we , we go through , and I initially had that with my kids . But the flip side of it is , and where I'm at now is the change I've made and what they've seen me do is the best lesson I think I could ever give my kids .

So the positive out of the drinking story is that I'm someone they can look at and go . You can do whatever the hell you put your mind to .

You know , if mum's done this and like you , I'm doing the podcast like I couldn't as I've told you before and everyone listening I couldn't speak in front of people for many , many , many years , and to be here now and my kids know that about me , so to be here now doing this is just like it couldn't have happened with alcohol .

We're all fallible , we're all very , very human at times , and so I think it's really important to allow our children to see us as we are and and , of course , like you know , in an age appropriate way . There are certain things that I'm not going to share with with my children , I might show when , when they're older , but I want them .

I want them to see my humanness and I want them to feel comfortable , as comfortable as they can be with their own , such that you know they'll see me make mistakes and particularly , you know , in the parenting world I mean God it's like rife with opportunity for fucking up . But with my children .

The commitment that they have for me is that I will always repair with them , always . I will never , ever leave anything left undone . And so we I got this from Elena Brower . I was listening to her a few years ago and she was talking about when her son was younger and they would have this thing called a do-over .

And so it was a way of basically asking , you know , acknowledging like you know , I've screwed up . I would have liked that to have gone better . I would like some opportunity for forgiveness and to have another chance .

And so I employed this with my kids and I said look , you know , there'll be times where I'd perhaps be short with them or , you know , like with kids where they're kind of like arguing with one another . It might feel like I've taken sides with one of them and then one's left feeling abandoned .

And so I started to employ this of like you know , can I have a do over that kind ?

It didn't go how I wanted it to , and there was a moment with my eldest and we'd had like a real difficult situation and she'd acted out and I was really kind of hot from it because it was , you know , it wasn't nice what had happened and , um , and I remember feeling like a lot of tension in my own body Cause I was , I was kind of so cross , you know

, like , when your kids like might be , you know , smart mouthed with you or whatever , and really like you know , smart mouth with you or whatever , and and really like you know , take it fucking personally , and and and so I was very much standing in my like you know , I'm right , you're wrong ground .

And she came up to me this might be , you know , my sweet little , she was probably only about seven or eight at the time and she , um , this is my daughter , pearl . And she came and she looked up to me and she said , mummy , can I have a do-over please ? With tears in her eyes . And , of course , what happens when , you know , do I stay in my ?

You know , well , I'm writing it no , like the whole thing just fell away and dissolved and then she's in my arms , you know . So there's such a power with our fallibility , our humanness , sharing that age appropriately with our children . Like you say , for them to see what you've done is incredible

. And as far as alcohol is concerned , for me , pearl , out of the three of them , pearl is the one that might remember some of it Very little .

I think she's only ever really , I think , seen me as a non-drinker , but in the beginning we did talk about it a lot and I remember one day so she would have gosh , I can't do maths on the fly she would have been younger and I remember I heard her in the playroom with her iPad and she was pretending to record videos and she was modelling .

She was either modeling me or Annie , annie Grace , and I could hear her doing this video of like yes , um , it's not a good idea to drink alcohol because it's really bad for you . So what you can do is you can drink instead , uh , water , milk , non-alcoholic wine , non-alcoholic beer . I got so sweet .

No , she's very cute , but but the point being that , you know I I've talked to her about some aspects of it uh , because there's going to come a point where , for all of my children , you know , irrespective of me being a non-drinker , yeah , they are going to face their own reckoning with the societal bullshit around booze , and I can't be there to police what's

going on . Neither do I want to . What I can do is help them to stay connected with themselves in a way that wasn't available to me . You know , we all have this very , very deep part of us , our true self , capital S self , our essence , that is guiding us moment to moment , and that connection is always there .

What happens with cultural conditioning and the primal need to fit in is that we start to distance ourselves from that . Obscurations get in the way and and that's how I've effectively abandoned myself . You know , over all of those years where I was , you know I'd like I mentioned about my father's death . I was , I was drinking away that grief .

I didn't realize that's what I was doing at the time , but I didn't know how else to face the emotion . And so , with my children , it's really critically important to me that it's not that I'm teaching them how to be connected with themselves , because they already know this .

It's the act of helping them to stay connected so that they don't have to go through the process of trying to recover that , but they maintain it such that they will trust themselves first over anybody else , including me . You know how , with kids , we'll do that thing of like they'll be eating their dinner .

My son always does this He'll eat all the beige stuff and then he leaves the greens and I'm like son , eat your greens . And he's like , oh no , mummy , I'm full and we do that thing of no , you're not eat your greens . And it's kind of like a bit of a playful example . I mean , this is where we have to temper things .

I want to talk to him about why it's important to eat his green stuff , but equally , I don't know whether he feels full in his tummy or not . Only he knows that . So who am I to tell him to abandon himself in favor of what I'm telling him ?

So I mentioned this because I think that we just want to be cognizant of what we're modeling for our children , but how we're facilitating or not that route to , to connection with self , that trust in self , because when it comes to pearl being offered booze or you know something else , I want her to have the , the steadiness and the , the self-assurance around

whatever decision that she makes , notwithstanding the fact , like I'm going to be there to catch whatever she does , I'm going to be there to catch her

and she will learn . Either way , I had an example with her recently . It was probably I don't know about six months ago .

I don't normally have things like soda , like Coca-Cola , I don't normally have things like that in the house , because I just never really drink it myself and so the kids have always kind of seen those things as treats , like something that they might get on a trip out .

And we'd been to the cinema or something and she had this small bottle of Coca-Cola and it's like half of it left . And she said to me this morning mummy , can I take , instead of taking water in my water bottle to school , can I take this Coca-Cola ? And I was about to say no , you're bloody well calmed , get your water and let's go to school .

And then I thought , oh , hang on a minute , right , this isn't my decision . And I said that to her . I said I'm not making this decision for you . You're going to make this decision .

What I'm going to do is I'm going to help you , and how I'm going to help you is I'm going to talk to you about some , some information , like what happens when you wash and bathe your teeth in soda all day . I'm going to talk to you about the rules that the school have and why they have those rules .

So we did a little bit of kind of like teaching around the stuff or sharing of information with her and then I said to her right . What I now want you to do is I want you to consider two things . So , firstly , I want you to consider what happens .

So imagine , imagine , pearl , that you pour the Coca-Cola into your water bottle and you take it into school . So just , you know . Close your eyes . Imagine what that feels like . Imagine it Right . You got it , yeah , right Now . Imagine how you feel at the end of the day having taken the Coca-Cola in . So the Coca-Cola is long gone .

How do you feel at the end of the day , having taken it in ? Bear in mind all the things we've talked about Got it , yeah , got it Right Now . What I want you to feel into is how do you feel if you take water into school ? So how does that feel at the beginning of the day ? Close your eyes , yeah , okay , I got that .

How do you feel at the end of the day , having taken the water in ? So she thinks about that and balls out of the bath . I had no idea how this was going to go . And , and and I said to her right , you know this is your decision and she did make . Right , you know this is your decision and she did make she . She looked like this .

She looked down as if she was looking into herself for the answer . She took a moment and then she turned around . She screwed the cap back on the coca-cola and put it back in the fridge . I was like now that worked , yeah , amazing . But the whole point of that story is I'm not telling her . She has full agency .

And look , had she taken the Coca-Cola in , she'd have also learned the lesson which I was positioning for her around delayed gratification versus instant gratification . So we , as parents , we have such a beautiful opportunity , within the sharing of our own vulnerability , our own challenges and , like you said , to to be able to show them the growth that's possible .

It's , it's so highly valuable . So I think it's the best thing that we can do for our kids , oh , definitely definitely , and I love that .

You know , age appropriate ways , and both my girls , 18 and 26 , are not big drinkers and my middle daughter we have really good conversations now because she said recently , because in Australia um drinking's at 18 and it might be in the UK I'm not sure America's anyone yeah , so she's going to all these parties and she said , um , oh well , one of the times she

said I had some jelly shots but I only had equivalent to um one and a half drinks , like at 18 , I wouldn't have . I mean , get as many of those standard drinks as you know would have been my motto , but she , she stopped anyway . The next one was , um .

She said , oh , we went to a party and someone threw up and they didn't remember the next day and I said , well , that's called a blackout and she goes . What's that ?

She goes because I never want one and I got a chance to tell her about it and how it happens and I told her for me I got them because I drank so quickly and and just for her to be educated , because there was other information I told her as well , was a great conversation and she said well , I don't want to have that .

I mean the awareness of her at 18 compared to me .

It's just so nice that we can have those conversations and my son's 15 , so it's yet to come and I don't think he'll be as willing to have chats with me , but he hears these conversations and all my kids know that they can make their own choices and , no matter what , like you said , I will be there to catch them and to pick them up at night .

How good is that ? Because my kids were at age , yeah , where when I was drinking I couldn't pick them up . I mean , it wasn't like now I could , I was still with my husband and and we get people to drop them home .

But I can't even imagine how I would have done this if I was drinking , because they rely so much on me and I want to pick them up in the dark . You know I don't want it's a safety thing , you know . So just the fact I can now . But I say to them all you know , if it's 2am and you're lost , you're off somewhere and you can't get home , call me .

You know I don't care if you've been drinking , obviously for me . That's what I'm here for , so it's really is a blessing with the kids . I wanted to have a quick chat about our trip to Thailand , just because I haven't really spoken about it on here .

I've sort of alluded to it in some of the the podcasts I've done since then , but it was amazing and I just wondered what your experience was , your biggest takeaways from that week . So for everyone listening , you know , we went over with Kim , who's also this naked mind coach , and there were 11 of us . We went to Phuket and did some amazing things .

Um for a week .

So I knew I knew them all in in kind of different um contexts , either one-to-one coaching or PATH coaching Sorry , path being the Snake in Mind program .

So I've coached them all in different capacities and my role there was to be a guest speaker and to sort of facilitate with Kim , and so I kind of went with this idea of like , almost like , this isn't for me , this is in an act of service for others , and of course that was very much the case .

But the thing that was really unexpected for me was that I knew that there would be moments of kind of spiritual blessings in there for me . But the thing that surprised me the most , it was a real spiritual pilgrimage and the depth of experiences that I had totally unexpectedly whilst I was there were just like out of this world .

I'm really into the magic and mystery of life and , wow , like it was punctuated with all of that . So there was kind of this real um , I don't even know how to put words to it . You know this kind of spiritual experiencing going on for me but at the same time , being able to witness vast transformation in others and to be able to connect in a way .

You know what ? Earlier on I was talking about alcohol being fun . I mean , what a fucking lie that is and if anybody , if anybody believes that , they just need a window into that boat trip that we had .

So there we all are on a boat in the middle of the Andaman sea and there's not a drop of booze anywhere to be seen and we had the most fucking fun ever . So we go off and we do a bit of snorkeling and we're doing a bit of sunbathing and we and there was some really quiet moments like I sat alongside one of my , you know , long-standing clients .

We sat next to each other for , I'd say , a good half an hour and we didn't speak and it wasn't that , you know , we were ignoring each other . We were just in the moment . We were just being present to the moment and having you know that , like just soaking it all in , and you can still be very connected with somebody without any words .

So there was lots of moments like that . And then I have to stop you for one second .

I kept falling , turned out I had an ear infection . But then I cut myself on coral . But then , as I was swimming back , kim turned around and went there you go . And I couldn't hear it because you know I snorkel gear , put my head up and go what ? And she waves her hand . So I put my head down . Big jellyfish in my face . Oh yeah , you did .

Oh , my god hit me . It hit me . But then we got back to the boat and the the two lovely guys bandaged me up . They laughed at me . They laughed at me cutting myself in the coral . I can't stand up . I can't stand up anyway . Um , and then it continued to be the best that was the best ride and I will go , let you get back .

Everybody is so , bear in mind , like the majority of people haven't met each other before , right , and and yet we were so tight the bonds in that group , and so what it culminated in was , you know , we were having like lots of laughs and conversation and all of these things , and then the music busts out and , and what I remember , one of the first songs that

came on so I , my ringtone on my phone is sweet child of mine by guns and roses that comes on and there we've got ali and she's and and they are , like , you know , axl , rose and yeah , away with this , the air guitar and the drums and and it and it got , you know , just really really raucous , very , very , very quickly , and it was just like I haven't

fucking laughed like that in such a long time and you're going like not one person , not one person , has drank a thing , and yet we are having the best time , the most fun you know it was .

The thing is it was really authentic and natural and wholesome , wholehearted , because everybody was fully present to themselves , fully present to each other , fully present to the situation that we're in . So that for me , I get chills talking about it , because that is fun , that is joy , that is love , that is bliss .

That like not this crappy , shitty substance that anesthetizes you and shuts down . You know the workings of the central nervous system . That's not fucking fun , it's not fun . So , yeah , thailand was um incredible and you know , if anybody wants to hear more about thailand , then they can

come . We talked about it on my podcast , didn't we ?

It just shows , and the laughter that you said , you know it was everywhere that week and it was really authentic , deep belly laughs . I mean when we were on the beach crawling around doing photos of each other . It was laughs , I mean when we were on the beach crawling around doing photos of each other .

It was , you know , hilarious , like we just had so much fun and spiritual and deep and meaningful and funny and everything about it was the most fun I've had in such a long time and way more fun than ever I had drinking .

And so we came back . We were well rested . I mean , funnily enough , when we were there , I think I was , you know , sharing with you guys like I , I was sleeping like four hours a night . I was like this this can't be good for me . Like how can I be sleeping four hours a night and not , you know , being ruined as a result of it ?

Well , it was because everything else that we were doing was so nourishing and so fulfilling . Yes , you know so absolutely , uh , yeah , it was a very , very special , uh special trip indeed it was , be in our hearts .

So you're right , you know you didn't need as much sleep and I was the same . I was getting up at the crack of dawn and just having less sleep , I guess , but so much more energy . Oh yeah , and also , we all came back , I think , a little bit changed for the better .

You know , in whatever way that was and you can't say that about a drinking holiday either , oh no , it was such a different and amazing experience . Just , you know , incredible and coming back , like you you said , I've always said I need a holiday to recover from my holiday , but I came back with this , the energy , and it was so different .

So and and I really loved it also because it showed me that I can do this for the rest of my life , even if I don't't meet someone probably will very open to manifesting that .

We just bonded so much and that's available , that's available in the future and I'm already signed up to Kim's next one . I couldn't resist and I've actually decided .

Well , you know , hang on , let me get my calculator out so I can work it out really , really quickly . So how much is that a year ? Five and a half thousand pounds a year . Oh , yes , well , there's .

There's a decent retreat , right , like , and I mean not not just that , that's a high-end luxury retreat for yourself , or it's a couple of small retreats , like you know .

Yeah , so , yeah , there's there's so much value in looking at your relationship with , with booze and and if you feel like , if you're , you know back where I was , where it seemed impossible and it seemed insurmountable , then take some hope from what I've said and and reach out to somebody somewhere , whether it's a coach , whether it's one of the sober communities .

Keep listening to podcasts like this , because it's going to inspire you . It's like Laura McCown , on her podcast many years ago , talked about a trail of breadcrumbs . We each have our own trail of breadcrumbs . Yours isn't going to be the same as anybody else's .

So , just , very gently , without any kind of pressure that you're putting on yourself , just look for that . What's the next breadcrumb ? Don't try and see the end of the journey . Don't try and be like anybody else . Just what's the next breadcrumb ? And for now , the next breadcrumb is this podcast , and then it might be .

Oh well , maybe I'll have a look into retreats . You know , just follow the break rooms , yeah exactly .

and your website . What's the name of that ? Yeah ?

So that's the Present and Sober podcast and that's on Google Podcasts , Apple Podcasts . You know , anywhere that you find Spotify , anywhere that you find podcasts , you'll find the podcast .