Episode 5: Intentional Ignorance with Greg Koberger

So I didn't mean to swear, but I was, my nose started to bleed like in the bathroom. I've never had that happen before or after. My nose just started to like gush blood. I was so stressed out like that time.

So I went to dinner the next night to like, celebrate and I get a phone call and I know what the number is cause it's the same numbers the day before. So I pick it up and it's Michael Sebel and he's like, Hey, is this Greg Berger from Read Me? I was like, yeah. And he's like

So he was apologizing because he thought he just never got back to us when he had gotten in. But like their new system, he hadn't marked down that he had called us. And I'm thinking, cause I remember obviously I remember that he called us, let us in. I'm thinking he's calling to like revoke it,

I think it would've to be like, it wouldn't just be like, oh, we've changed our mind. It would have to be like, like, oh, we found out this really bad thing about this person type thing. Cause they've only like kicked like three or four people out ever. And like every single one deserved it. Yeah. But

And basically it's a agreement that kind of covers everything. So it's basically the contract that you would sign in order to accept money from them. So a term sheet will have like terms obviously. So it'll talk about the how much equity they're getting. So like a lot of weird rules, I just make sure. So a clean term sheet is basically just, we'll give you X dollars for why a number of shares.

And it's called a clean term sheet, which means there's not a lot of like stuff now there's like less clean term sheets, which, you know, they can make any rules they want. So like, there's things like liquidation preferences that can go into it.

Liquidation preferences like VCs get to take out, you know, before anyone else gets money, they get to take out like two x and what eventually happened is you sell your company or your IPO and you have to like start turning, converting all the equity and these like, you know, promises into like real money. You have to start doing the math. So it's like, okay, so this term she gets presence over this one cause it came first, or this one came second, or it overrides this one.

And like, or like, you know, then you have employee contracts and employees at equity as well. And that's not term she, but they have like equity. So like that all kind of goes together and like, this is gigantic math problem where you kind of figure out like, okay, cuz it's not just like, like you think like, okay, like I own 5% of the company, you own 5% of the company. We both get the same thing, but that's not really true.

Cause if you have a liquidation preference, which if you have leverage, you can get a liquidation preference. It means like, let's say we sell the company. you know, X number of dollars and you have a certain amount that you serve, like you can get money out. So there's a lot of times where like employers or founders should get $0 because the VCs have enough liquidation preferences, stuff like that. So anyway, that's what term sheet is.

We've been really lucky that I've never gotten a bad term sheet. Like it's always been pretty good. But the problem with a pulled term sheet, pulled term sheet just means like the, the VCs like, nevermind, just kidding.

Before you sign it, is that, I mean, people have been doing a lot of term sheets when, like the past few years when like covid happened and then recently, like as the recession started to happen more and more people have been pulling term sheets and seen as very like Not a good business practice, obviously. Like it's very like, you know, it's, it's like it's also like pulling a contract for if you like, you know, an employment contract.

Like, you know, you sign a contract and it's like, just kidding. It just seems like really bad you know, bad business. But unless of course, like you said, if it's like, like true fraud, then like no one's gonna be mad if you see firm necessarily for pulling a term sheet.

But a lot of people are just doing it cuz like, you know, the market changes a little bit, but the problem is like, if you pull a term sheet, it's like, people are like, so like if you, if you sign a term sheet, then all of a sudden it's like you turn down your other VCs that have offered you money and you're like, okay, I'm gonna commit to this one. And then there's always a little bit of diligence after the term sheet, by the way. But you know, there shouldn't be any lying or anything.

So like, by that point the diligence should be purely diligence. Not you know, anything, anything significant, but. It means like you're already planning on the money, you've turned on other VCs and you're planning on the money and like you start like hiring or making decisions based on the money. So like pulling a term sheet's pretty bad because like all of a sudden you have to tell, then it trickles down. They have to tell your employees like, oh, just kidding.

I literally can't afford you because the term sheet didn't go through and stuff like that. So anyway, that's you asked me right before this and I was like, what's it like to run a company? I was like, I'd probably work like, just raw, like less, I like write less code or like, you know, spend less time sending email, stuff like that than like previous jobs.

But like, that's the like two A, not that specifically, but stuff like, that's like the two A am panic attacks that that replace the the raw output of work. So, so, yeah.

It's a way like shared data. It's a way to like, if you ever get a text message, they're probably using Twilio's, APIs, stuff like that. So most companies at this point are built on a bunch of cobbled together APIs that do like discreet business functions or data or whatever else. And we do is we build the documentation for the developers, have to implement it. So like as of now, it takes a developer to implement stuff and to make it, make it all happen.

And what we do is we make it easy for developers to learn how to use an API because each API is like different, like parameters you send in and values and stuff like that. I'm kinda trying to oscillate between like using the technical terms and also you know, more more noob terms to fit the podcast. But what we do is the API ation. There's numerous kinds of APIs. There's like public APIs, there's private APIs, like internal microservices.

But the entire, you know, most of infrastructure when it comes to to to software. there's just tons of APIs, whether it's like public API that you pay for, free public api, private internal ones. Anytime an iPhone app talks to a server someplace, like it goes over an api things like that. So that's what re does what is new with us. Let's see. I'm trying to think of like, features you'd care about or anything like that. Went to get Universe today, you saw that. That was nice.

We got spent a lot of money for a half hour booth, but it was really good. We gotta talked to a bunch of people. One thing I've loved about reading was like, been doing this for six or seven years at this point, seven or eight years. It's been a while. And pre covid. So it was like, what, four years ago? People like knew us and liked us enough. And like I'll go to conferences. Like people would kind of be like, oh, I don't read me, or something like that.

And then like, didn't do anything for two and a half years cause of Covid. And like now when I go to events, like people like no read me and like, super excited. And it's so cool. Like, like, like prior to Covid, people are like, eh, yeah, I've heard of Readme. Or like, is that that thing? And it's like, eh, yeah, sure. But now it's like people, like we have customers everywhere. People use us, people like us, like it's really cool.

So I've been really liking this like post covid going to events thing cuz cause people people know Readme now, so it's nice.

So you have to go raise money and like we raised 1.2 million, which also seems like a ton of money. I was like, it's 1.2 million. It's more than I could ever used ever. But it's really that, you know, that goes away pretty quickly. But you need to raise money. And so like when I first was pitching people, every single conversation was like, they're like, okay, what's an api? So like, you spend the first, you like a half hour or an hour or whatever it is.

And like I spent a lot of time not talking about README and why README is cool or what was exciting about, but like, just trying to explain to VCs like what an API even was. And like, and, and they're like, because like to them, like, so VCs are, are fascinating cuz they're, they're, they tend to be very curious people. Cuz if you just care about just like money and numbers, like you go into hedge fund or you're into a growth fund or something like that.

Like you're not doing like seed stage VCs, like the seed stage VCs are really fascinating because they are really interested, like they do love learning. It's one of those things where like, yeah, sure, anyone now knows that like, Figma is gonna be worth, you know, a trillion dollars, whatever, but like, or not anymore I guess cause they sold. But like, you know, when you first get like the first person like saw Figma and like, you know, they're like, we're gonna do Photoshop for in the pros.

Well, that's never gonna work because like, it's too gonna be too slow, too clunky. Like, why didn't anyone want it? Like they spend all their time in it. Like they're, you know, very happy to like, download an app. You have to fight against Adobe, which is gigantic. Like, it makes, you know, it's so that you can't be a good seed investor without being like super curious. And I mean, you can, but like for the most part you really can't.

You have to like, you know, be open to new ideas because you're taking chances on things that aren't proven. And like there's some seed investors who are like, you're like, I'm like this, but you get to invest in it. And like, that's also a decent strategy. It's like, you know, I'm like, we just went to GitHub, which I'm thinking this like, it's like, I'm like GitHub, but, you know, five years later, which means that you can invest in it at a cheap price. And they're like, okay, GitHub's big.

Like I get that. Like I'll invest in it. But for the most part, like, they're very curious. But I said most of the time like just explaining like why APIs were important. So you get to the end and you'd be like, you wanna invest? And like, oh, we did really well. Like a lot of people did invest, but a lot of times they're like, you know, you didn't get to the point where you're explaining why re's cool. They're just like, oh cool. APIs are cool. I like that idea.

Like APIs and like, you're like, but I didn't tell you about my company. But the second time, like we, we raised when we did a series A I'm not big on raising money, so we raised money very, very infrequently. Like when we not necessarily need it, but when we like want it. So when we raised like a Series A, it was so weird cause everything had completely changed. Like in 2019, we raised a series A and like everyone knew exactly what API I was.

And like, it wasn't like, I didn't once have to, cause I kind of went in and being like, oh, I know what this is like, and I was ready to talk about like what APIs and what it's gonna be important. Everyone was like, not al like, you know, like, just move on. Tell us like why, why you're exciting. And that was really cool to watch.

Like just the shift and like, you know, back when like we were talking about DocHub, it was like, I don't know what like GitHub was kind of big, but it was like, get up has like, 800,000 users at that point. Like, it's like, and it was huge for a dev tool. Like, it's not, it wasn't like a lucrative market.

Like maybe you could say like, Microsoft had some cool, like, you know, back then like net stuff, like everything was like free and open source and there wasn't like any examples, like, I remember like, you know, really loving Twilio, for example, and like Stripe just opened up. But like I don't know. It's, it's but they weren't huge. Like obviously these names I'm saying now, like Stripe and Twilio are huge now, but like, Twilio was like, you know, 12 people at the time.

Like it was super tiny and like, it was, it was cool and I would've loved to have like, worked there, but it wasn't like, it was like, this is a good business. And like now it's not. That's completely that true. Like now APIs are a gigantic business and there's no doubt by mine. But yeah, it was, it was an uphill battle early on cuz like, no one people, like, even people who knew about it, like knew what Dev knew by dev tools, like under show APIs. Like, they're like, yeah, that's cool, but.

There's not a lot of money in it. So I dunno. It's it's tough and that's why like, I, I'm not a huge huge fan of raising money is because I just never know. Like, I was always like always afraid. Cause like, we're always a little bit ahead of time, I think. And yeah, so I dunno.

And somehow you got, you know, you're not even.com, you're like readme dot, you know, io or.app or dot, you know, whatever, you know, dev the documentation website.com or something. Right? No one knows about you. Mm-hmm. , how would you get people excited about it? Like how, how would you get the word out? Would you do the same approach? Like make unsolicited documentation, like show it to them

Like, I always like thought that would be, and like you always hear stories about like, and these stories are true, but it's like, you know, the Carlson brothers like launched Stripe at like, going to everyone's office that would use it and like sitting down next to their engineer and like, I don't know. I think. I believe that story's true. Of course.

I just think that's more of a myth is like, especially now, like maybe it had 15 years ago, that's how it worked, but like now no company's like letting someone come in and like, you know, write code that's not part of the company. Like, that's just not a thing. Like if, if someone message emailed me right now was like, Hey, I got this new product, like I'll come to your office and like write code. I'd be like, no, that's weird. Like, definitely not.

But yeah, like, so I mean, what I did differently, so I had, like, I knew I wanted to make Apes used to use, that's what I cared about. And I had a bunch of different like ideas, like there was Doub, which was, you know, became read. It looked very different. Like similar but very different. One called Hook. I was very sim I was trying to find that exact thing and I always talked to people about it.

And and like, There's YC has this like, or Paul Graham, who started by C has, or one of the founders of YC has this as this blog post where he talks about this concert of like sitcom startups and a sitcom startup. His definition is if you were to write, if you're in a writer's room for a TV show and you want to, you know, this character is a entrepreneur, a tech entrepreneur, and like, you have to come up with an idea that's plausible enough that people would be like, oh, yeah, okay, sure.

Matt's a, that that company sounds right. Cause like, you don't take people outta the sitcom. It's like, yeah, that sounds right, like that's a good enough idea. But like, his point is like, there's a lot of ideas though, like that, that like sound good enough that they pass the, like, it could be a sitcom, but like, no one actually wants it. And the example they use is like a social network for pets. And like, you go to a bunch of people like, Hey, you love your dog, right?

Like, would you use social network for pets? And like, you're like, yeah, I totally use that. But then when it comes town, like you build it and like it comes time to be like, okay, Matts sign up. It's like, you'll you'll sign up cause you're my friends. So you'll sign up for it. And then like, then I'll be like, Hey Matt, like. Your dog hasn't post in a few weeks, and you'll be like, fine, and you'll post like, one post just to make me happy. And it's like, that's kinda the point.

It's like, it's one of those, like, there's a lot of stars out there that's like a lot of ideas out there where it's like, it sounds like a good enough idea. Like I could convince you that pet star ideas a really good idea because like, hey, look at Instagram. So many people have like, you know, Instagram accounts for their dogs and cats. Like, but it's not made for that, right? Like it's, why would you post it on like, you know, Instagram's for humans.

Like, think of all the cool stuff you do if like, you like Paw or stuff like that. And then, and then we also know, by the way, that like everyone has a pet so we can sell to advertisers, right?

So like, you know, and like you can like make that case, but like if no one actually uses it, like, you know, if rounds down to zero and you end up with zero customers if everyone's like a maybe or a no. So when I'm going with this is that early on I would tell people about it and they'd be like, yeah, that's cool. I really like that. And I'd like play around with it and all that. And like, it feels good to have someone say like, yeah, I'd use that.

But then something shifted, like, I kept like talking about it and like, you know, shifting around ideas and like, it started to shift where people were like, oh, Like, when can I, when can I use that? And that's where gets really cool. Cause like, I, I noticed to flip instantly, like the way people like respond to me. Like, and not that I was ever lying to myself, but like, I was always like, yeah, I guess they kind of want it.

And like, I like shifted how I was talking about it and like what, what features were important and what features weren't, and stuff like that. And like one day people just all of a sudden started being like, yeah, like, can I set up now? And I'm like, no, no. Like, it's not ready yet. And like, and like one point, like I like, you know, I did let people start using it and like now people are using it. Like one person like Venmo would be money. Cause I didn't have a, I didn't set up filling yet.

And like, and like he didn't Venmo me for any reason or other like, you know, you should be charging for this. And like, I just want you to know like, like this is what I want. Like, I just wanna like, give you money. Like that's when I quit all my I was doing freelancing at the time. That's when I quit my freelancing jobs and like, okay, I'm gonna do it full time.

And like, it wasn't really a question you asked, I know that, but like, I think it doesn't really matter what you do for marketing stuff, if the idea is not kind of exactly where it should be. But you had, like, you were doing something buoyancy years ago, right? yeah. How did that, I wasn't wondering like what that, I mean, clearly it didn't work out that well cuz but like, what was it, how did that work?

Right. And eventually I was just like, okay, I'm gonna let it, I'm gonna let it go. I gotta let it go. But that was the idea. And so it was sort of like, it was like analytics and loosely borrowed from the idea of Buffer how Buffer started. So they put up like a home pay, a landing page, and there's a few clicks you could do and you could see pricing and it was like, this sounds great. I wanna go and buy this. And then you go to buy it and it's like, and you think it's real.

And it's like a couple different pricing plans. You click buy and sign up and they give them your email and then you, they say like, Hey, we're not quite ready for you yet. But, you know But we'll let you know when we are ready. Mm-hmm. . And so I wanted to like build that as like a product. Mm-hmm. . But you know, a bit more to it, like how long did it take you to click between screens? What are the different screens? Can you do it from your phone like in a bar when you have an idea one night?

I never really got, I never really took it too much. Too far. Right. I never built it out. Yeah. I got busy with other stuff and I needed to make money cuz I started that idea in college and I was like, broke college kids. So

Cause you have to find that conviction though. Like, I don't, it's cause it, it's, it's like a, you get a egg problem, which is like, you know what, what number of people clicking, like the pricing page is gonna like actually convince you to spend the next like, let's say two months for a really, really simple MVP. Oh, I had a question for you actually. What do you believe? So I think there's like, there's a lot of

Like, I was like, oh, I'm gonna build this personal CRM thing and then I'm gonna sell it to other people and I'm gonna sell it to realtors. And I got really into that. I started going to real estate conventions. I would go to open houses and like and like harass the realtors working the open house. I started building like extra apps around

And when I meant mobile then it wasn't iPhones, it was like Blackberry and like Palm Pilot things and, and like the Windows CE or whatever Windows phone, like which is basically a Palm pilot. And so that was I went door to door trying to get to restaurants to buy it. Yeah. And not a single, like maybe one or two did, but not anyone really cared. They're like, we don't have money for this. Yeah. We don't care. People still show up. Yeah. Right.

And the last thing that they're gonna do when people aren't showing up is like, give this 15 year old kid a bunch of money to like, for this like web app thing. Before web app was a term. No one cared. I did sell it though.

Because I like the only interface I had with cops was like my friend's dad was a cop and then like the show cops. And I'm like, yep, I don't want to go to like, I don't wanna be on this TV show. Right. So we said, yeah. So I look, I'm like, okay. I get

To, to fall into like the fallacy of like, oh, it can't be done because so and so tried it. Like the problem is like, if you ever like have an idea, by the way every idea has been done not well and, and all that, but like, you'll be like, oh, I wanna do like X And like, then what you do is you get like a bunch of bcs who are like, oh, so and so tried this two years ago and like it didn't work and here's why it didn't work.

And like, you start to get very discouraged or you start to be like, oh, this company already did it. So like, okay, let's say I wanna like launch like a, a Photoshop competitor for example. Like, you probably go and you look at Photoshop and you're like, I'm gonna copy all these tools. It's like, is that the right way to do it? Like, I'm blown away, like the figma of some of the features that have, I'm like, I just didn't think, like, I never would've done that. Like, that's insane.

Or like, and like this intentional ignorance is like, it's tough cuz like you can't go too far the opposite way. You can't like know nothing cuz then you just like, you know, it's like people who don't learn history or fail to repeat it. Like you, you need to know enough.

But if you know too much, then you either get too afraid or you get too like locked into like, oh, this is how it's done and then there's like some crazy ones, which, you know, I don't advocate for or not, but like a lot of progress is made by like breaking the rules intentionally. Like, you look at Uber and like Uber was ly illegal for a long time. Like do you remember like first in San Francisco?

Like Uber cars were just getting pulled over all the time and like people like, and like they pushed through it and like that went well for them, but they got like zenefits which also pushed through healthcare regulations cuz they're selling cross state lines and that did not go well for them. And like, it's always hard to find anyway.

So like, there's this like intentional ignorance that I think is like really fascinating where you, you just have to know enough but not too much and it's hard to find that balance. Cuz you know, like for a bit before I started readme, I was like working on construction software and I wasn't the founder, but I was one of like the people on the team. I was like a junior founder or whatever and

Like, I was never into this idea cuz, and like, but this is what made me realize like, I don't wanna be doing this, is like, we're talking to this guy does construction. He's like, Hey, people trying to sell construction software all the time. And he's like, one of the weirdest thing about construction software is he's like, every single one, you cr you like, you create a new project or whatever, like a new like construction project and you click create a new project.

And every single time he's like, every single time a tech person comes to me, the first thing is like, enter the address. And he's like, we don't have an address because we're like construction people. We're building the thing. And he's like, he's like, and like he's like, that's my like, like my like litmus test. He's like, if they ask for an address, like up front, it's like they clearly have no clue what they're doing. They don't get it

So like, you know, something like PlanGrid, like I don't actually know their backgrounds, but like, I can't imagine they were like doing construction for 20 years before they started PlanGrid. So you be an outsider, you can't be too much of an outsider. Cause if you're too much of an outsider, you're solving problems that like no one actually has or perceived problems from the outside.

And like, I don't know, like I think the healthcare industry is very messed up, but I a hundred percent know that anything I were to do in the healthcare industry, like would not be solving the actual problem most likely because I'd actually know what the problem is necessarily.

Like to your point, it's like not many people, and there are a few, not many people like work at a restaurant for 20 years and then decide to create a startup out of it. Like that's a really tough jump as well. So like, I don't know, like, I imagine most startups, like if you were to look at the people's backgrounds, I'm trying think like off the top of my head, like some like big startups like. Sometimes, sure. But like for the most, I mean, I do think that's why there's a lot of dev tools now.

I do think that's why there's a lot of like I mean there's like a gigantic sectors, like there's tons of startups for like salespeople. So it's like CRMs all flavors of CRMs, all flavors like that. It's like, okay, I imagine 80% of those people who started them are 90%, were like salespeople who are like this, the current situation sucks. Like, I can do my own or like, you know, tools for marketers or HubSpot and stuff like that.

And like, there's just so many like tools out there that definitely are building for yourself, but like once you get out of there, like it, I feel like very, like maybe there's a co-founder or something that like did it or whatever, but I don't know. I think that's like, I don't think it's bad advice to build something for yourself, but I think it's like, I don't think it's the full picture.

Like I don't think it's, cause I think, you know, again, like you can build a dev tool right now and you should. Cause it's a great market and I love it, but it's like, Everyone's like, that's every what everyone's doing. Like, if you really wanna make a ton of money, like go find like this industry that you've never heard of and like build something for it, I guess. And like, so I don't think it's like, I don't think there's advice either way. I think like both arguments really

Yeah. What, like what would you do and how would you like, identify what to do if you don't know what to do?

And with my company we've done a bunch of escape rooms and I just like really fell in love with not escape rooms. But this concert of like physical in person, there's a few things I led about it. One was that it's not competitive in the sense that you're not competing against each other, you're working together to compete against like something together. And I, I like that so much more. Like, I dunno if you are, but I'm not. I think you are, but I'm not a competitive person.

Like I don't care about like, you know, bowling cuz like if I win, I don't care. And if I lose, I don't care.

It's not, it's just like, it's just like, it's not an activity, it's like a lack of activity almost, and stuff like that. So it's like, okay, what do you wanna do? Instead of bowling? It's like, or sorry, instead of drinking, it's like, we can go bowling. We could like, I dunno what else you got, like,

And so I started getting bored of going to them because like, once you've done like 10 of them, it's like, okay, I kind of get like, you're like, okay, I get like how this all works and like, you kind of like, they're not, not fun, but like, and also like as I was getting into them, like there was a, the quality started to go down because like, there's an explosion them. So like some would be really good and some would be really crappy.

But I got really interested in like this concert of all of them and I was like, I'm gonna build an escape room. So I started just kind of like doing it in my, in my, not really. Okay. So lemme put it for, I didn't like sit down like, I'm gonna start an escape room. I was like, I was like, I had this idea was like, I love for team bonding events. Like what if it was like an escape room where it was like you have one hour. To launch your startups.

Like you have like a million dollars and like, instead of an hour, it is an hour, but like you watched your bank account go down, you have one hour to launch your startup. So I was like, I wanna call it start escape. And like, I would like do escapements. I'd like, oh, like I could see that, I could like take this and like do a take and this. And like, I started like designing in my head. I wasn't like trying to start anything.

Cause I had read me and one day I got to the point where I was like, I just really wanna build this now. Like, I, I just like, cuz I don't know, I've, I've never really been able to kinda articulate this, but I'm sure you'll feel the same way. It's like every amazing thing that has ever happened happened because someone just like did something that was like very like like had a, like, just something like, like out of the, they, they woke up and they did something different that day. Right?

Like maybe it's like you. You know, you're married, I don't know, like, I don't actually dunno how you met wife, but like I'm sure I did at some point, but like, you did something different that day, I'm sure. Or you asked her out at least, or you did something like, there's like a, you made a jump and like now your life is completely different. Or like, with reading me, it's like, again, it's not a big deal. It's not like I like woke up one day and I was like, I'm gonna start reading me.

It was like, I just chose instead of doing something else to do this and then I did more of it. And like, it was a, it wasn't a conscious decision, but it was like I didn't just exist and I didn't just like, get up, go to work, grab dinner, go to bed. Like I like did something different. And like, I brought up like marriage cuz like, I think it's just everything in your life. Like, very rarely do things just happen. Like it's, it's not even intentional necessarily.

It's not like you like wake up and like, I'm gonna get married, I'm gonna meet the person I'm gonna get married to today. It's like you just do something that's like a little out of the ordinary. And like it's for the escape from, it's like everyone can, like everyone has an idea obviously, and like everyone has startup ideas or company ideas or ideas for a TV show and stuff like that.

But it's like, Okay. But like the ones that got made, it was because like someone sat down, wrote the screenplay and like mailed it in or something like that. And it's like, it doesn't seem like much, but it's huge to actually like do it. And like people just don't, myself included, like for every one thing I do, there's 2000 things I don't do and I'm like, I should have gone there that time and I didn't. And like, or I should have like, you know, made this happen.

So anyway, so I got like, I got to this point where I was like I just hate thinking about stuff and I just wanna do something. So I was like, I'm gonna rent a place. So I rented a place in San Francisco and I was like, I'm just gonna do it. Cause like, I don't know, I could be sitting on this podcast too and being like, I had this idea for an escape room and it was really cool. And you guys, you know, somebody, I'll build it and like, that's cool to talk about too, I guess.

But like, that jump to actually like do it is like, I think everyone in their lives has done something like move to a new city or you know, drop outta college or go to college or. You know, it's so easy just to sit there and like at your job that you hate every single day. But like sometimes you're like, you know what I'm gonna go to, I don't know, where do people go to find jobs? monster.com or whatever, and you're like, I'm gonna find a new job. And I wouldn't go there

And like half the time it light things on fire and all that. But like, he's kinda interesting where he's always doing something and I think that's really annoying. I would hate to be anywhere near him cuz like, it's like a bull in a China shop cause like all that. But like most people don't have that. Most people have a burst where it's like you, you do something big and then you spend a lot of time like dealing with the good or bad consequences of that.

So like, you like get up and you're like, I get a new job and you get it and then you can't just like get a new job two weeks later. Like you're like, okay now I have to like, you know, you go back and down, like your energy kind of goes back down. You're like, you're coasting a little bit. Stuff like that cause you're tired or, or whatever else. And or you focus on different things or like, you know, your health got bad so you're like, okay, I'm gonna go get healthy again. Stuff like that.

But again, that's another thing, it's like, I decided to go to the gym today and like be really like, it's like that, like everyone wants to go to the gym.

Everyone wants to be like, you know, gorgeous and healthy, but like, you just, it's just one day you do it and it's I don't know where we're going with all this or where I was going with all this, but like, I do think like it's this thing where it's like that for me, the escape room was like, I was like, I could just like talk about it or I could just do it.

And like, it was, it's, it's, it's, it's usually like, there's usually like a pivot point and for me it was like, I actually like found a location, like signed a lease and like once I did that, the ball was rolling. Like I couldn't get out of, it wasn't like, I could be like, ah, just kidding. Now I have like a $5,000 lease in the heart of San Francisco that I'm just not gonna do anything with the next two years.

So I did that and I so I just like, you know, was like, I'm gonna do it and I did it and then I like had to build the escape room and it was a ton of fun. Like, I had I think it was like 7,000 people, a little under 7,000 people went through it in two years. It was, it was awesome. Like Steph Curry did my escape room for his 30th birthday. One time I was doing it. And so I am my current job as CEO read me. And I was sitting there with my laptop and I had a read me logo on my, on my laptop.

And I'm sitting there working at like 7:00 PM at this like, just job. And someone comes in like a team comes in and I'm like, oh, hey, welcome everyone. And I do like this spiel and stuff. Cause like, we had someone who ran it, but like, every once in a while, if they couldn't do it, I would jump in or I actually down nights and weekends once in a while. Cause like then I could see what was broken, what was working, and I could like, make tweaks and stuff like that.

And I, I just didn't like, it wasn't, it was something to do. And like, it's pretty easy to Jo by the way. Like, you sit there, you like bring people in, you spend two minutes with the spiel, they go in and then you just have an hour basically where you're like, kind of watch them on the screen. You can like mess around, do it whatever you want. So I do it, like I have my company ReadMe logo on the, on the thing. And these like, it's like four or five guys come in and they're like, whoa.

Like, how do you gonna read me? And I was like, oh, I'm this is weird. But I'm like it's my company. I'm the founder. And they're like, oh. We, we invested in you. And I'm like, cuz they're VCs. Like they weren't my partner. So the way VCs firm works, there's like, like a bunch of partners. So you meet like your partner and like a few other people, but like, you don't meet most partners, but they all know about you. And I'm like, oh, I swear things are going well.

This is like, This is, and they were totally fine. They loved it. They're like, we need to do a selfie. So like, we did a selfie of me and my like, my little like polo shirt, that's a star escape. And like all of them. And they sent it to my partner and I was like, this can go one of two ways. He's either gonna be like, cool or he is gonna be like, all right, so you're working a, you're working an hourly job now to make ends meet. And but now it was great. So,

Like when I say company, I don't mean like the Delaware C Corp in, you know, on a piece of paper in Delaware where you're like, you're, we're all capitalists all trying to make money. That's what I mean. It's that the worst thing I think you can do for your team is create an isolated environment where yeah, sure you're really good to your team, but You know, you're kind of hurting your team because you, they don't have the opportunities cause it's very isolated and stuff like that.

So you need to really care about your team and that's definitely your number one priority. But like, you also have a team of your peers, so other managers your boss who maybe you don't like your boss and that's totally fine, but at the end of the day, you, you, like, you, you have to play ball with everyone around you. Cuz very rarely, like, unless you're like a brilliant team of like, you know, such high performing jerks that like it works out. It's very easy to create.

Like it's a hard balance to create that isolated culture where people like, feel like they're on a certain team in a larger company but also get the chances and opportunities, you know, from the rest of the company. So I think it's, it's a really hard balance to both like care about the people below you, which everyone should do, but also make sure that you care about like, the people to your side so that you're not too isolated and you're not creating this like, weird island at a company.

Because like, I don't know, if you worked at a company where like there's like a team that's kind of an island and it's like nothing gets in, nothing gets out, and it's like, I dunno what to do here. This, by the way, if anyone's listening that works at Read Me, I'm not talking from experience. It rude me. Just like in my past, like at Brazil and stuff like that, I used to see like, just different teams would be like very isolated.

It's like the, the manager's job is to protect people but not protect 'em too much because you still need like that in and out. Like it can't just be a like, like a like. Like a, what's the word I look for? Like a sealed like thing, cuz that's not how companies work. Like even if, and I, you know, I'm not a huge fan of capitalism per se, but like, even if you're like, I don't care about like, capitalism in the company, making money, like all that.

Like, you still kind of have to care about other people in the company and like, you know, be a good place to work or a good team to work with. So that's my answer.

Cuz like, it's one of those things where like, yeah, could you like, can you pick up some stuff? Sure. But like, The problem with programming. So when we did programming, it was not a lucrative career. Like it was, it was fine. Like none of us were worried about it. But like, it wasn't like, you know, Silicon Valley wasn't what it is now.

When we started in 2000, year 2007, I was thousand six, maybe year a little bit later, but yeah, And like, it wasn't a lucrative career necessarily, and like by the time we like graduated it was like a lot better and like, things were pretty good. But like the reason that was like, you can't, but like, you can't just sit like there's other careers to get into if you kind of wanna be taught and like learn stuff like that. Like you have to like to program.

I think like, I'm not saying you have to do it on nights and weekends every night and weekend, but you kind of have to, especially early on, you have to build stuff to make stuff. You have to try stuff. Like, I don't believe that whether there's a dev bootcamp and dev bootcamp's really cool because they actually make you do projects. Like they, they, they know that and they force that. Whereas like in school they don't really like, it's like we did projects, but it was like homework.

Whereas like, but you just have to like, you have to commit to liking it and to doing it on nights and weekends or in your own time and to really like it because like, otherwise it's uphill battle because like, programming is not fun to do. I love it more than anything. It's fun for me. It's relaxing, but like, if you don't like it, it's not fun, I don't think.

So I think the answer is definitely no. And if I didn't go to college at all, I think it would've totally been fine. Cause like I learned how to program my own, but like, I think you need to want to program. And if you don't, there's a ton of other really phenomenal careers out there that you're gonna have a lot less of enough help battle on.

Like, you need to be the one, like, not forever, like I haven't, I don't read blog posts or anything like that anymore, but like, you have to like be curious and like, you know, I'm trying to think like, cause I can't even give like prescribed stuff. Cause like anytime I say anything it's like, okay, go to this website. Like, that's not what I mean. Like, you just have to like, be like, I wonder if I could fix that and do it.

Like, you have to have that mindset of like, I'm gonna solve it and then like, and like just brute force your way through it. And it takes time. It takes a lot of time, which is really tough.

Like that's my favorite quality in people and in myself is just like, The ability to like just constantly be excited about stuff. And for me, this is a very tech one. I started ReadMe seven or eight years ago, I picked like Angular 1.2 cuz it was, you know, react wasn't quite where I, I didn't, whatever, it doesn't really matter why, but like Webpac it was really hard to like get react set up cuz like Webpac was like, if it existed, it wasn't very good.

It's still not very good, but like, it was just tough to get all set up. So I went with Angular and it was the biggest mistake of my life probably. But, so I started writing code, so then I got to this like route where I was like, do you remember like when we were in school, I know these are lighting rounds, but I'm going along you can edit this later, but you know, in, you know, in school where like you'd meet

Cause like, when you're trying to get something done, you don't wanna learn new technology at the same time. And now I'm like, I wanna like learn new technology. And I, I started using like Next and like, it's just a breath of fresh air. Like there's some stuff I don't like about it, I could complain, but it's like, okay, it's such a nice time to be programming it. Just like for the first time ever using next, like using.

A framework that was built by someone who's actually made a website before. Because like, it's like if you use it, and again, I'm not gonna check trash other stuff, but like you use, like, you know, I've been, is my first language. Like a lot of these were like people who like understood computers enough to bridge the gap. So a human being can understand it. But like now it's like, but like it always felt like you were like speaking the computers language.

So you're like, you know, like you're trying to do something that's like, oh, well that's a put, or that's a poster, that's a get. And it was like, you're like thinking of these like, like how computers think and like you get really good at that, right? At some point. Or like, jQuery, while Query is great, like jQuery is like, okay, how do I make the dom, which is, you know, built for computers, easier to use, easier to access. Like, it's like shorthand at the end of the day.

Like, and like then you look at React and it's like, oh, this person like, built a lot of websites. Whoever, I mean, sorry. Like the people like, you know, working on Next, like, it's like this person like built a lot of websites and when they sat down they weren't like sort, go back to like the the ignorance, like the intentional ignorance. It's like, it's like, okay, they built something that was. You know, made for people who make websites.

The one that I love, and this is very controversial here at Readme, like people, like this is probably the closest thing to a fight. Pineapple pizza. This is the pineapple pizza of of WebDev is tailwind. I love Tailwind. Tailwind. Like, it. It's, It's, delightful. And some people hate it. Some people love it. But like, again, that's the, like, the, like nothing about Tawan should work because when I first saw Tailwind, I was like, this is the worst. It's like CSS, inside html, like

And it's like this easy thing, all the complex things like, oh, this one's faster. It's like better, you know, whatever. More efficient, you know. And then there's like back to originally like the easy thing and that's like the master programmer. And I feel like I, you know, if you look at the top apps in the app store, for example, and all my iOS like developer friends are gonna hate me saying this, but I think it's true, most of 'em aren't actually native.

and I started personally, like I went through that like journey of like, oh, I gotta build all this stuff, like the hard, the hard way because it's better, but it, but it like didn't make me feel better, actually made me feel like more stressed and worse and I act and, you know, building this stuff, even if it is old tech or if it's you know, sort of like boring tech or whatever. If it works and it's easier and to have a good developer experience, like I'm all for it.

Cuz no one at the end of the day is gonna care. Like no one cares that GitHub is written in Ruby on Rails unless you work on it. Right. It's huge.

Cause like at the same time though, I don't think you should be like, You know SSH into your FTP server in order to upload your PHP files. Like if you're using modern day php, it's, I've heard it's pretty good at this point, but like, there is like, there is something to be said too for like, you know, keeping up a little bit because it's like you have to maintain it. You like, so there's like stuff like that too.

It's like, I think there's a distinction between, you're not saying you're not a letter, you're not saying, you know, I learned PHP back in 2007 and I am doing that till the day I die. You're saying that like you're saying that like, you know, you also don't have to like always be chasing the cool stuff.

Like, I think like, what I'm really excited about, so to answer like the question, like, what I'm really excited about is like, I think we've gotten to this point where like, there's always that like you know, like the, like any sort of like, like innovation stuff like that. But any sort of like or like the, like adoption what's the, like the ludite? The No, what's the laggard? Like what's that thing?

It's like I, I'm not saying that I would start my new startup with the coolest of new technologies, but like on the side it's fun to like spend something up and play with it and like, you know, say what I like and don't like cuz like that dislike of stuff, like also informs like, very few people do something that's kind of semi-popular without there being a threat of something interesting in it. And ultimate happens is the trade offs become too much.

Like, and 1.2 I complained about it before, and you 1.2 is phenomenal because all of a sudden like You know, it, it was like, it, it just flipped how I thought about programming completely. J qu was like, you were like constantly modifying the do and like it was like html so became like a programming language almost. Like I loved it. And like there's something really beautiful about that. Now the problem was that the trade off was that the maintainability was too hard.

Like, you know, variables coming from, it was slow. Like there was like 50 things that were wrong with it. But like, there's something so fascinating with the way it flipped how I looked at everything. Cause at the end of the way, this is gonna be really nuanced, bear with me. Probably not for the end of the podcast, but like there's this concept of turning completeness. So turning completeness is basically if a language is turning complete to like really kind of simplify it, it's that it can.

Basically do anything that any other programming language can do. Like, if it's turning complete, it means that, you know, it all gets compiled down to binary. And like any turning, complete language can technically do anything that any other turning complete language can do to kind of like simplify and boil it down. So at the end of the day, whether you're writing angular, I'm writing Java, you're writing php, whatever, like it all just, you know, boils down to zeros and ones.

So you can do everything with each language. It's just harder to do some things. A lot harder. Almost impossible cuz like, you know, there's like other stuff like, you know, you can't look PHP on a iPhone like that. There's like stuff like that. But you could, cuz it's all running. Like it's all you could, and when I'm going with this is like you're, you can do anything with anything. It's just, it's more of like the ui, the dx on top of it.

Like what's easy and like what's you know, easy to do and what's harder to do, like what are you fighting against and stuff like that. And like, there's something kind of nice about realizing, like any technology you pick, you can do anything you want.

You just wanna like, you know, kind of like find that perspective where like, you know, PHP and JavaScript, if you were to like see the compiled code, you couldn't tell me which one was which cuz no one could like, I mean, you could, but like, you couldn't tell me by just looking at, it's just zeros and ones and there's no way to really know. It's like the server doesn't care. The server has no clue what language you're building with.

And like, again, they def like, and we're, so we're stacking things on top of things. On top of things. Like if you're doing, you know, react, you're doing reactor compiles into, you know, type script compiles, j j JSX, that all compiles into JavaScript, which is compiled into like, and just, I don't even know at this point. Like what it compiles into is like different run times to different stuff. And like, it's, it's so fascinating to me. Like it's, it is. Ergonomical.

It's not just, you know, you can do anything. It's not like they're inventing new stuff at this point. Like everything you can do has been kind of invented. It's just like, how do you make it easier to do? Like, I kind of feel like this is like a weird way to like end this argument. But like, Matt's my new office right now.

We've been in this office like three years and like we had another office that was like downstairs and right around the corner, so it's like the same city block, just like around. And like when we moved offices, my like experience was so different. Like we're still within walking distance of almost the same stuff, but like my perspective just shifted on like, oh, okay, like I didn't notice this restaurant over here or like, this restaurant's easier.

Or like, this coffee shop's easier to get to cause I didn't have to cross the street here and stuff like that. And like, it just, even though I like didn't go very far, it like completely changed how I think about stuff. And I feel like that's what programming languages can be like. And you do the same stuff, but you get a different perspective and like all of a sudden it's like, oh, that's easy to do because like I can do it now and stuff like that. So that's my long rambly answer to

Like React was not great when it started. It wasn't bad. There was like cool ideas in it, but like Angular and React in my mind were pretty similar as far as having cool ideas, but like one built and iterate and like did something really cool of, and like, my point there is like, you know, you should never stop learning, but like, sometimes it's, sometimes like, I think web dev, I think like program in general like goes back and forth as a pendulum. Like it goes like, you know, very liberal.

Like it's, it's You know, it doesn't compile like just on the fly, everything's magical and all that. And then it gets hardened and hardened and hardened as people like Ed, like layer like type script on top of JavaScript or like, Ruby was also like that, like pendulum shift to like the, like you can just do everything. That's all magical. But then it's like, okay, well okay, we can't be that magical cuz like, there's security concerns.

You can't be that magical because speed, you can't like, and they start like tighten things up and then like the pendulum swings again. And like it's, we're at that swinging of the pendulum where it's like, oh, now it's really cool. Like now it's in a really good spot. And then what's gonna happen is like this for new, for me years and like someone come up with something like brand new.

But like, we've taken JavaScript, which has been around forever, but like JavaScripts become popular maybe like 10 years ago, eight years ago, seven years ago. Started to be like, get a little bit of respect cuz like it got, people started like rapidly iterating on it and now it's got to a really good point and it's gonna keep going that way, but eventually it's gonna go too far and someone's gonna come along and start from scratch again and be like, this is amazing.

It's a new language you've never heard of and it's really simple and friendly and fun and like

That was like peak web dev because like, things were really nice and all it all worked, like all these like random ideas came together and started to work. Not just jQuery but like, everything like PHP got better. Like it just worked and then like it got worse and worse and then like, Ruby came along and changed how people thought about stuff.

Like the express and node came along and how people, it just like, it's every few years like it, it just hits this point where everything kind of comes together and feels really, really great. And I think we're in that spot right now.

Like, it's not like they like came outta nowhere and like, you know, build software like out of nowhere. But like and I, I'll, you know, I'll probably get bored of it cause like linear and superhuman and Ray has like, they all kinda look the same and it's like, okay, like at some point it's gonna go out, out of Vog a little bit. But like, it just, like, they're different enough from like previous stuff and like, I just, they iterate quickly. What

And it's just, again, it's just, there's really nice software out there today and I'm just really excited that I get to use a lot of this Nice a lot of this nice software day.