So speaking of people using their religion to make laws, he may have recalled that. Last year, Roe v. Wade was overturned due in large part to the continued action of the religious right in America. And since that happened, some groups have been working to reverse the reversal, and that group includes the Satanic Temple. You may know them from their fights to put statues of Baphamit outside of government buildings. They are arguing that this decision violates their
religious freedom. They say that abortion rights are part of their fundamental tenets of their religion, specifically that one's body is inviolable, subject to ones will alone. So they've filed lawsuits and a bunch of states Indiana, Idaho, among others. Lucian Greeves, the co founder of the Satanic Temple, is basically saying that he has to fight the system from within this and that's how the kind of strategy he's taking. He says in the article that we have to play
the long game. You know, Christians, they spent generations doing this and so that's the strategist taking. So I'm curious what you think, Cindy as to like, well they be successful. Do you think that this is the best way to about it.
I don't know.
I don't know. As I said just before we started the show, Friends is in the process right now of giving the right to an abortion and writing it down in the Constitution, which is pretty great. But I wanted to specifically talk about a part of the article, and it talks about a group called Sovereign Citizens. It's a loose group of Americans who do not believe they are under the jurisdiction of the federal government and I'm not subject to US law. And so I studied a little
bit this group. I went to their website and their I hesitated between crazy and interesting group. In late twenty twenty one, Grieves received a message from that group. They've informed him that he was to be deported from the US despite being a US citizen, And after finding a zumlink for a Sovereign Citizen Assembly meeting, Griefs crashed the meeting and as a consequence, they put one hundred thousand
dollars bounty on his head. So I went to their website and the page detailing the bounty is still here. You can go right now and read it. And so let me just read you a tiny bit of it. So it says on Monday, two hundred and seventy sixth day of the year of yeahweh sixy twenty three at seven twenty to you city minus six or around, and
that already tells you a lot about them. Are younger creationists, Christians, etc. Douglass Messner attempted a quidita by striving to hijack the National Assembly for the Government of the United States of America, which they think they are in the capacity as General Postmaster of the original General post Office of seventeen seventy five.
All members were throwing threats with the intent to place fear into the American nationals so they would back away from their official duties and hand the government over the terrorist organization. So, yeah, they're classified as a terrorist group by the ABI, but yeah, the bounty is still here. So Grieves had to move secretly. And so we were talking earlier about beliefs led by religious beliefs. That's what we get. Ellen. Did you want to add something.
Yeah, yeah, So since June, I've had a lot of anxiety about the repercussions of Robbie Way being turned over. I did work with recovering from religion to get resources together for people to get access to portraiture or have their anxieties and questions answered, which GAVEE me some thing
to do about it. The fact that Lucian Greece is doing something on the other side where he's actually trying to fight the law against the religious right want to take people's rights away, and this is just the beginning of what a reblical harm.
This can cause a long run.
But the fact that he's fighting against and has actually given me courage.
I do appreciate.
Hoving expressed his frustrations about how the people at the Satanic and Temple, including himself, are focused on the right things versus the people that their detractors are focusing on the wrong thing. They're focusing on the fact that they use satan as a symbols, and Lucian Grieves even said this gets to be really tedious because I think people are terribly invested in the outcome of the Satanics Temple's lawsuits.
Because they just see the theatrics of it.
They're not really paying attention of what they're actually trying to do because they're trying to tech freedoms for everybody through the separation of church and state, and that also includes religious freedom.
And I think.
Though I love what they're doing, the image, the image of the temple is bearing the message of what they're going to do. And Greaves mentioned in the article about the danger in the stress he has felt as the face of the Satanic Temple, he is constantly fighting an uphill battle. I'm really excited because I get to meet him at free Flow next month, so when I go, so I'm actually very excited about it, and I want to talk to him a little bit more about that
in the future. And the Satanic Temple to me, is an example of a microcosm a secularist fighting for soe rates and free expression in a country that actively pushes
against those ideas. And since the religious right has infected the highest cord in the land, it is even more imperative that secular groups fight to restore what the majority of Americans want and we and I think that is where the focus should be rather I and but I really appreciate that they're willing to, you know, kind of fight the hard fight, because they are really fighting for this separation and using their advocacy and using sedan a
symbol of rebelling, which I love. But again, as he said, people, So Cynthia, what do you think, honey who ail?
I think that unfortunately the message gets lost in the sauce because of the whole symbolism utilizing batha metal batha met as their symbol. Right, you have the head of a golt in a man's torso with the goat the goat portion at the bottom, and then instantly, especially with people who happen to be extremely like Christian or theistic leaning and also on the right, get triggered by the symbol, but completely loses the messaging behind why we're using the
symbol in the first place. You know, I think that I mentioned on a podcast in the past, like do you understand that if you are a Christian? And I lived as a Christian for almost forty years of my life, so I get it that you actually display when you display across you are displaying the capital punishment of your Lord and savior Jesus Christ. I mean, do you understand that and do you really think that that is okay?
Like would you, like say, for instance, if your mother or your father was like gone through capital punishment, would you actually use a symbol of that say that you love your mother and father. I don't so that and of itself is an issue that you know, one has to actually go through when they are looking at symbols, iconography,
things of that nature. But I but one of the things that I do applaud is their particular advocacy when it comes to what they're doing in order for them to try to get back into really talking about separation of church state. And you know, and one of the things that I wanted to point out and then Jordan and I want you to try in after this. You know, there's this whole thing that they're specifically trying to do is use the system in order for them to actually
get changed. And usually people are wanting to go and say, hey, I we need to work out outside of the system in order for us to affect change. And the thing about it is, I have a friend that says government is the game and politics is how you play it.
And I remember specifically in an article him saying that if I can find it, he said, I get messages from people denigrating us for taking legal action to assert our rights, saying you can't change the system from within the system, And I keep asking them what the fuck do you think you just saw happen. That's what we did.
And I totally agree with this tactic. I think that in order for us to be able to change anything as far as like you know, far as world will be wayed concerns, you're going to lead legislation if you talk about.
Lately.
I saw that in Congress after the GOP took and took charge, that disbanded the Congressional committee that talked about civil rights for voting right. And you're seeing this happen over and over again. So voting matter, using your voice matters. Actually working within the system to change things that you don't like matters. And I appreciate the Satanic Temple actually
doing that. But when he says that, I'm curious to know, especially with the wake of the Christian nationalists and and them actually getting laws, pushing things that they want to get fullard done. Jordan, are you what is your take on Well?
I was kind of torn when I was reading this article because on the one hand, I really appreciate the effort that they're going for, and obviously I support their goals, and it's clever using kind of the tools of the enemy against the enemy. Not to other everybody who's religious. But obviously this was an effort of the religious right over many decades, and they're using the language and tools of religion to try to influence the state, and that's
that's a good thing. On the other hand, I would love to live in a world where we didn't have to put on the quote of religion in order to enact change, you know, Like this is Roby Wade was such a popular that it had what sixty seventy percent support across the board. It like nothing has that level of support, you know, And so the fact that we have to play this game almost in order to get
this extremely popular thing to work is extremely disappointed. But I fully agree with what you said, Cynthia that ultimately, if we all work together, ultimately the votes are what are going to change. The politicians care about They care about power and the way they stay empowers by getting voted in, and so if we stop them from getting voted in, then that's the way we're going to do it.
So that to toss it over to you, Helen, I'm really interested what your take is on this and what do you think, like, how do you think they should move the home.
Aila I don't.
I think that their public persona is a double edged sword because it's only gets it's eyeballs on them when.
They do dramatics displays of.
Protests against things like against abortion, against queer rights, against and they do public rituals, which definitely gets them in the news and definitely get a response, which is fantastic because you want that, you want that attention to go go there. But again, as he said, the messages get lost in the theatrics. It's I think it's a very hard balance for Satic Temple is doing.
But at the same time, I'm kind of like, well.
But he he does a lot of interviews and he is the public face for the state Temple, and he got invited on Fox News, so you know, his vase is out there and he speaks up and maybe out of like the millions of viewers watching Fox News, and he appears and he's talk He starts talking about the separation of church and state and what they're actually doing. And then if even five people are like, oh, I understand, and they start doing a little bit of research on
what the Santanic Temple is doing. Okay, I kind of want that, So I it's it's really difficult. But at this point, with Roby Wade being turnedover, I'm kind of not going to be very picky about you know, who's going to be, you know, taking up the mantle and fighting for equal rights. So and for this barbaric law to be forced upon us, and now people that can bear children are scrambling and trying to figure out what
they're going to do. I at this point, I understand the frustrations, but also at the same time, I'm not caring at this point right now because they're a bigger fish to fry.
That's the kind of way I look at it. What do you think, Sinny?
Thank you.
Yeah. From from the outside, I have a kind of a different perspective. I don't want to to emminish his work because we haven't insisted enough on this. But the article talks in length about the stigma he's facing for for his engage engagement he as we said, he had the threats, he has to move, he had to move his UH this took a heavy toll on him, and UH I want this to be set on on on
on record. On the other hand, I think that the the the image that the general public in the US has about the the Satanic Temple is a make believe religion to attack other religions, and until this image doesn't go away, I'm afraid they won't be able to go very far unless they have very good lawyers. But that's a different topic.
Different lawyers are just different sentiments of society and of itself, because you know, let's just face it, the symbolism that's
behind the iconography of Satan is very triggering. Especially but you know, before we just wrap up and go on to our next segment, I just wanted to just say that, in my humble opinion, to look at the efforts of the Satanic Temple and to see that if they will make a change or not, one must consider that as much as we try to promote amiable discourse to come to proper understanding, that is not the commitment to every person.
And I think that that's something that was very much so displayed when we started to see different laws that popped up before and after the overturning of rov Waite, and so I believe that sometimes circumvention is absolutely necessary. But you know, I think that the Satanic Temple, utilizing what they can do within the within the sphere of politics is usually the way to go. I wish him luck because as a person with uterus, I am very I'm very invested in this particular issue.