Good evening, viewers, Thank you for tuning into the nonprofits on this wonderful Friday night. Don't forget that immediately after the Nonprofits tonight you can tune into Truth Wanted, hosted by the wonderful resident geologists of the ACA, Kelly Laughlin, and his special guest is going to be Dan excuse me, it's going to be Chris Mallard from the dam Or Daily Atheist morning show, so check that out. Also joining
them on backup is our own Eli Slack. And Eli is here tonight to introduce an article to us about belief and delusion? Do they have anything in common our belief's delusions? Are religious people delusional?
Who knows?
We are going to dive into this topic? And Eli take it away?
Thank you.
So. Although we often try to stress that religious people aren't crazy for being religious, and that being religious is not the same thing as being delusional, can the nature of delusions give us some insight into the nature of beliefs?
Well to university professor claim that yes it can. In an article summarizing their research, Connors and Halligan right that when offered a stimulus, our brains naturally search for context against which to compare it, and this context that it searches for is exactly the same for both, the same context that forms our beliefs, whether true or not. The primary difference between a belief and a delusion it seems to only be the number of people that believe it.
But what else can we learn about the relationship and interplay between these two categories of thought. This article is from the conversation by Michael Connors and Peter W. Halligan on November nineteenth, twenty twenty four.
Excellent. Yeah, so, Eli and Aaron on.
Wednesday's show the other night, you both talked a little bit about pattern recognition. Aaron, you spoke about how our brains are inclined to find patterns, and I can't help but see a similarity here with this article. Can you talk about that in the context of forming delusions?
Yeah.
This article is about a case study for a woman whose name is Natalie named change to protect the anonymity of the actual person. She was admitted to a hospital with post partum psychosis, and as part of her psychosis, she would see strangers and think that they were her in laws, and then also at one point she thought that she was dead and the because this was an ongoing thing. Doctors were able to interview her afterwards and try to come to understanding, well, obviously these are delusions.
These strangers aren't her in laws. That is you know, that's an objective reality. Obviously she's not dead, that's an objective reality. But she thought she was. So the interviewed and tried to figure out, well, why did you believe
these things? And she actually described as thought process that we all go through that we look out in the world, we try to find evidence to support the things that we see or trying to understand the world, and she saw mannerisms what did she say, mannerisms and other things in the strangers that made them that were similar to her in laws which made her think that they were her in laws. And the one when she thought she was dead, it didn't take her very long to realize, oh,
I'm actually not dead. Like she actually looked out and tried to think in analyze and trying to figure out what was going on. So the what is really puzzling about this story is Okay, so what they really are demonstrating is there's really nothing different between forming a delusion and forming a belief. So how do one thing that's missing from this article is how do we protect ourselves from forming delusions versus forming beliefs.
Yeah, I thought that it was really insightful to see the steps that people go through to arrive at a belief and then also arrive at a delusion. I do have a sense of similarity between them because, in my opinion, while the author didn't really define belief accurately, you know, I feel that belief the author's definition fail else to account for the fact that beliefs lack proof. You know, we often say a belief is just a lack of evidence. It's it's you know, something you don't have evidence for,
but you choose to believe it anyway. And so on that note, Kelly, you know me being of the mindset that that belief here is not accurately defined, does that have any bearing on the author's ability to make her case.
I think it does, and I agree with you. I had a problem with the article from the very beginning because it didn't really define believe and I like to say, I don't really believe anything. Do I think some things are true? Yes? I accept facts. If I believe something, then I no longer have to think about it, And the more I believe, the more I don't have to think,
and I'd rather be thinking. You know, once you stop thinking, you're dead, right, So yeah, I think I think it does have a bearing on her case because if you're not completely defining what you want to comment on, how do I know that you and I are can ever be in agreement when we haven't first agreed on what it is that we're talking about?
Yeah?
Right, how do you even have the conversation if there's no common ground of understanding there?
Right?
Right? That's what I doubt, That's what that's I think was probably the biggest problem with the beginning of this article that we didn't get those complete definitions.
Yeah, well, it talks a lot.
The article talks a lot about, you know, how religion and belief go together, and then of course compares belief and delusions and Eli, you don't think that religious people are necessarily delusional, but doesn't their belief in a sense fit the criteria for how we define a delusion.
In a sense.
Yeah, And I'll clarify that. What I what I like to stress that just because a person is religious, that doesn't really necessarily say anything else about their cognitive state. It means that they have these beliefs and they have reasons for them. They may be bad reason as far as we are concerned, But I try to that doesn't mean they're crazy, It doesn't mean they're delusional. This, that or the other. Try to dismantle the ideas rather than
the people. But what this does say is that all beliefs, whether they are true or not, whether they are delusional or in line with reality, are formed in the same exact way. And that's based on whether that's with you know, the sensory input that is like the event that you're considering, and that is interpreted through personal bias, your emotional connection to the event or to any of the factors, and
your subjective interpretations of your experiences. So you're interpreting that event subjectively, you are applying your personal bias, and you are applying your emotional state, your emotional response to that, to that new belief, and whether what you believe now is true or not, it's formed the exact same way. So this what this says is not that religious people are delusional or that people who believe things are delusional.
What it says is that firmly held religious beliefs don't have any advantage that a non religious delusion doesn't also have just because it's a religious belief. That's what I take away from it.
I find that interesting, you know, because you can make the argument in the opposite direction as well. It's like when it comes to good things in society being done, and people make the argument that religion is necessary for those good things, we can say, no, there's actually zero advantage to having a religion in place to carry out, you know, a certain groups or the objectives of society.
If you will, you know, will you know, we can do all great things without without religion, And so you know, it's interesting to see at the opposite end of the spectrum there that there's really no difference either. And I'm not trying to disparage people who are religious.
I agree.
You know somebody who was a former Christian that you know, you you know and ask for the religion, but you certainly from an early age are taught how to make sense of it and it sticks with you, and you do have your reasons for better or worse.
But Aaron, you.
Know, other religions are often treated as mythology, as being silly but not Christianity, and I wonder what do you think makes that possible?
How does that happen?
And what does that say about our understanding about belief versus delusion?
Well, the only thing that's different between mythology and accepted belief is the number of people that believe it. As soon as the number of people, as soon as the number of Christians dwindles or it becomes a minority, that's when Christianity is going to start to be seen as a mythology as opposed to I don't know, do we have a word for it, non mythology.
I guess.
And how does this relate to belief as a delusion? Well, the author the author of this article defined belief as convictions of reality that we accept as true, and then they want to analyze delusions as opposed as different than beliefs. Well, delusions are also convictions that people accept it's true, they're just not objectively true, right, And so I think psychology kind of has a problem in this in this aspect, because the only way to know somebody's delusion if is
a objectively true or not. If somebody's not objectively true, then it's a delusion. Well, well, then that means religions are a delusion. And I happen to believe that religions are a delusion because there's no evidence for believing them. Just like this woman and she's thought that these people were her in laws. These trainers were in laws, but they weren't objectively right. People may believe in religions, but
there's no objective evidence that they are actually true. There's actually you can look out in the world and see, well, if God exists, we would expect to see X, Y, and Z, and we don't see that, right, And so yeah, I think the only difference between belief and delusion is a number of people that believe it. And if a lot of people believe your delusion, then it's more considered a belief, But a fewer people believe what you believe, then it's considered a delusion.
Kelly, I see you kind of wincing and moving around and get and ready to speak. I'm gonna get to you,
but I want to capitalize on Aaron's Aaron's point. You know, I'm in the military and sometimes I tend to have conversations or cross paths with a chaplain and I do remember about a little over a year ago, year and a half ago, I had talked about the types of chaplains that the military offers, and I said, well, we should have we should have a I didn't use the word mythology, but I said, like the religion of Poseidon. And I have this running joke because I have a
tattoo Poseidon on my arm. And so when I want to make a point about how silly religions can be, I often pretend to be a worshiper of Poseidon and people will say, come on, you don't believe in that crap, And MY response is often.
How dare you? How dare you right?
But anyway, this chaplain said, ah, that's just mythology, and I'm like as opposed to you because you get the badge and because a whole lot of people.
Believe in it.
Anyway, you know, Kelly, when we were talking earlier, we talked about the definition of belief, but we didn't really delve into your point of view on the relationship between belief and delusion.
I just want to see if you want to expand on that.
I agree with a lot of what Aaron said, but I think there's more to it, because, like I believe, I want another drink. Now I have a delusion that this is straight vodka. It's not right. So I don't need a whole bunch of people to believe that I got a cup of vodka to be deluted. So there's more to it. And it's just like a lot of people often don't understand that their belief is a delusion, and that's what it becomes a real problem, right, and
we all have delusions. One of the ex hosts of AXP used to talk about walking down the alley and seeing movement by the trash can and thinking, oh, someone's going to jump out and get me in, and they get closer and they just see it's a trash bag wa even in the wind. Right. So it's easy for anybody to be diluted at any point. It doesn't mean we have to stay deluted. Can become aware of the situation.
We become educated to the situation. So belief and delusion, I don't know if they're that directly related to each other, right they are. We can believe our delusions, but we tend to understand that they're delusions unless we become indoctrinated by the belief. So you have to get that extra pushover to make that delusion become a real belief to me anyway, if that makes any sense.
Yeah, absolutely, I have this this delusion that I'm like a really good host at the ACA, and even though our producers, even though our producer Greg and Glenn and Cynthia are always like, no, you're the best we got.
I am.
I am, you know, I M conuer that one.
I'm just kidding.
But in all seriousness, yeah, I think that I think there can be a little bit of a discussion between what makes them different. And that goes back to I think Eli, you were talking about the reasons we have.
Don't you think that maybe the reasons.
That people have for a belief versus the reasons that they have for delusion are are just a little bit different.
I mean, are it? Do you think that you're being soft on people.
On theists by keep and and you know, just attempting to keep the discussion amicable instead of instead of calling them out.
And saying, yeah, you are delusional. I mean, what are your thoughts on that I'm being a little hard on you? But yeah, no, I want to unwrap this one to be fair.
Yeah, I think it probably is a little bit of that, like, well, you know, because the thing is, the word delusional doesn't necessarily mean like delusion doesn't mean like you are a bad person for having a delusion. It means that, hey, the thing that you believe is very clearly not true, and here is all of the evidence saying that it's not, yet you still believe it. That is definitionally called the delusion. But people, when you start to use words like that,
they start to get defensive. They're like, I'm not delusional, I'm not crazy, I'm not you know, wor be So yeah, there's a little bit of that, like, hey, well let's make sure that you know we're not calling people crazy. But what it like there, what we learned is that there is no difference in the way that you form beliefs, whether they are true or delusional. The difference what makes it a belief or a delusion is whether or not it's true, and how many people believe it and other
things like we've talked about that you said. There could be a number of things we could say about what makes a difference. All it really means is that I don't have to take your delusion. You're sorry, I don't have to take your religious belief any more seriously than I would need to take a delusion with the same amount of evidence.
So I think you hit the nail on the head, and that's kind of why I was picking on you a little bit. But I agree one hundred percent with what you said. No, seriously, people think the word delusional is like insulting, and it's just a definition for a concept that we kind of all need to take a look in the mirror sometimes and recognize our delusions.
Right, you know, I.
Had this, Uh, I had taken a course one time where we were learning about rational actors. Okay, is a suicide bomber rational? Well, of course, not, of course a suicide bomb.
Actually wait wait wait wait, are exactly, yes, exactly exactly rationalize anything pretty much.
That's right.
And so yeah, I wasn't saying that they're not. And thank you Kelly for stepping in and preparing to keep me on course. Uh and and you know, keep me honest. But but in reality, you know, we we as people, I think it caught so caught up on definitions that we failed to kind of get past it and break down that barrier and examine our own our own biases.
If you Will, so, yeah, really interesting article.
I I want to just real quick harken back to the fact that the the woman in this article was suffering from post postpartum depression and psychosis exactly. Uh, and having a tough time and so, you know, empathy to all the women that deal with that. Uh.
You know, my heart goes out to you and and and you know she was able to get help. Yeah, struggle is real. On that note, though, I thought it was a really not something. This isn't really.
Like a topic we talk about a lot, but uh, something pretty a pretty cool kind of mix up from our normal articles. I'm gonna I'm gonna take it home. Kelly will start the last word off with you. What do you got for us?
Real quick? Just one thing. I believe I've been brustfreeding my inner child all day.
You've been what.
I've been breastfeeding my inner child all day.
You've been breast I don't get it, guys. I'm sorry. Somebody helped me show.
You how how delusional belief can be.
Okay, okay, you know what, Kelly's so delusional so much of the time that I just thought he was talking normally.
But anyway, you know, it's also great. I have a weird sense of humor. And while none of you guys might have thought that was funny, your faces were totally fun.
That'll be that should be the screenshot of this episode. But yeah, Scott, Yeah, good conversation, Kelly. If you've got nothing will We'll move on to Aaron.
We are we are not rational creatures. As much as we try to be, especially here on the nonprofits, we try to be rational and logical, we are not. We are emotional, we are irrational. We are delusional. There are all things that we are delusional about, and that's why we've developed as a as a culture, as a society.
That's why we've developed the scientific method so that we can develop hypotheses, we can test them, and we can create hypothies that have predictive powers, so we know what's actually true and what's false, so that we know what beliefs comport with reality and what beliefs are delusional. So that's why I'd like to rely on experts, people that study things, people that understand them, because they're the ones that have done the work to understand things that I
don't have time to understand. Right, They're the ones that have done the work. So that's why I trust experts so that I could not be deluded. I can be as delusion less as possible.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a very important point and something our friend doctor Ben says a lot like, if you're not an expert on something, stop talking like you are. And I think a lot of us just like talking about things so much that we kind of get swept up into this whirlwind of of making commentary right, and it's kind of like maybe we shouldn't. But yeah, great point, Eli, what do you have?
Uh oh yeah, might not be relatively short as well. I think I was gonna If Aaron hadn't said what he said, I would have said that. But I'd say, given given that all beliefs we know now are they come from the same neurochemical result, I guess you could say that makes all ideas equally eligible to be ripped the funk apart.
Hell yeah, hell yeah. Something that can be destroyed by the truth deserves to be destroyed by the truth. I love that phrase. But yeah, so awesome discussion. Thank you gentlemen for joining me this wonderful Friday night. Don't forget folks. Check out Truth Wanted immediately after this, you can talk about anything and you can talk with Kelly about it and yeah, yeah, so you know, we cover it all. Scientific Methods believes delusions. Kelly's in her child