Hey, welcome to another segment of the nonprofits and Eli Slack is going to take us on a step step step step step step step in the right direction.
Go ahead, you LII.
So in twenty twenty one, the Southern Baptist Convention had just under thirteen point seven million members, and over the past four years that number has fallen by just about nine hundred and sixty thousand to now just over twelve point seven million members. Pastors boast about how new member baptisms are increasing, seemingly to provide the illusion that things
are not only well but flourishing. But after losing almost half a million members in twenty twenty two, they've never fully recovered from the pandemic and continue to lose about half that many people each year since. I wouldn't be concerned though, if I was the SBC, because what's a million people when you've got twelve more of those? This story is from The Friendly Atheist by him and Meta on May first, twenty twenty five.
Well, I mean, if you've lost one to twelve of them over that shorter period, that's that might be something that might.
Be a little bit alarming.
You know.
One of the things that I do find funny about this story is that you see so many Internet Christians on TikTok, YouTube and other platforms, social platforms who keep telling us over and over and over about how fat Christianity is growing, you know, and obviously they're ignoring all of the data. I mean, I like all of the data. I've actually had this very conversation with several Christians online and they're totally convernent.
They're totally convinced the church is growing.
And to be fair, and I mean, we even had the conversation I'm not sure if on the show earlier this week or it was in between tapings about how Christianity is growing in Africa. Protestantism is through placing Catholicism in many places in South America. But here in the USA, the churches are definitely is shrinking and have been for decades now.
Yeah.
I don't even know where these people get this.
So, Jason, I know you've been keeping an eye on Pew Research polls related to this topic.
Do you have any news or views on that research?
Yeah, I think I might disagree with you. I think a lot of what's going on with the Southern Baptist Convention, what we're seeing is people dying. Honestly, the SBC is generally stalked by a lot of older folks, generally my grandparents who have passed age and older, you know, a little bit younger late sixties, early seventies, eighties, So we're seeing that happen a lot. Also, the church is growing
exponentially globally. I mean, I say, you know, we talk about Africa, but we forget that this is a global world. So when you look at the Pew research, it's not only Africa, but it's the majority of developing nations versus developed nations. The majority of developing nations right now are experiencing not only a population surge, but that correlates to
a religion surge. And it's very fundamentalist, traditionalist, authoritarian religiosity that is proliferating Pew Research views I think by twenty sixty. I mean again, you can go on it, so please don't quote me. So I'm just a guy pulling it out of my brain or ass or whatever. But it's
religion will be is a dominant force in this world. Also, I don't think it matters that adherence to a specific denomination is depleting because when we see the current social shift and political shift, and who people who are listening to and adhering to it is a cult of personality
that is fueled by a non denominational fundamentalist foundation. So I think any belief that religiosity is lowering and or losing traction, I think is an uninformed belief, and I think it is inherently false and can be easily demonstrable and should be feared.
Ye on good points, I mean argue with that. Well I could, but you're bigger than me. So, Town, I was looking through your notes and I noticed there was a quote from a really wise and super intelligent person in there. You want to talk about that for a moment, you know, not the quote or the quote, not the incredibly talented person who made the quote, but the quote.
Okay, well, he who shall remain nameless I will paraphrase in my own words, and that for a long time now, this particular individual of my acquaintance has been saying, we are witnessing the desperate attempt to cling to power by religion as it enters its dying throws. After what Jason just said, Actually, it doesn't surprise me that the nations that have been dealing with this evangelical, authoritarian religious thing other than Islam, which used to be the fastest growing
religion on the planet. I don't know if it still is. I think there's a few others that might be making headway, But it is hard to say that religion is dying. But I think in the developed world it is because people are just figuring out that there's not a lot of truth value to it, and they're eventually, as we've seen with a lot of the people we've I've seen deconverting or starting to deconvert. The reasons they have for
doing that are fairly valid. So I think that what we're going to have to do is we need to allow allow people to see whether or not this religion they're doing is valuable enough to them to forego the truth of what their life actually is. But we also have to keep pointing out that it's not helping. You know, there these are some desperate people in some of these countries, and desperate in a way that Americans just can't not under us. Americans cannot understand. If you've been in any
of these places, you'll see what I'm talking about. I have lived in other countries and I can tell you that unless they're developed world, yeah, it can be pretty rough.
And that is the understatement of the year. So I the fact that people take solace in that horrible condition to it by a religion, or if that religion gives them some advantage in the political power structure they're in, so that they can pull themselves out of the of the shithole that they're living in at least a little bit, or maybe get another meal out of it, because they
live meal to meal, not day to day. You know, I think that it's a tragic situation, but if a religion can give them some sort of hope, then I'm not so sure. I'm against that. You know, as a humanist, I think people need to grab onto whatever they can in those situations to pull themselves out of it. Help you, help people around them pull themselves out of it, and we should be doing an awful lot more to do that.
I was curious, John, so I looked it up, and Islam is still considered the fastest growing religion, but it's mostly because of higher birth rates. So that's what I've been saying, Yeah, not because of conversion. And interestingly enough, though seventy seven percent of new converts into Islam are Christians or ex Christians.
I thought that was kind of an interesting statistic called I don't know what it means. It's a power but it's an interesting Now.
It's a power up move. It really is, due to the concessions given to men and authority and family structure. It's a power up move with more theater, more authoritarian liberties.
That's what it is, which Christianity has gradually lost compared to Islam. Though, if you go back into an Islamic situation, yeah.
If you read it all back, if you read The Temptation to Exist by em Chiorian, really good book, one of my favorite books. He discusses kind of the rise and fall of civilizations and power struck sures and different structures within the structures, and it just follows suit I'm sure. And The Temptation to Exists hands down, it's one of the few I've read it over multiple times. It's an amazing book. That was so cool.
I love that the article and Eli it is opening mentioned that there was a ten percent rise in baptisms.
Now, now my first thought was.
Okay, so baptists had ten percent more kids, right, I mean just because you baptized your baby doesn't mean they're going to stay a Baptist their whole life.
Does anybody have any thoughts on that?
Well, so, so as I understand its, Southern Baptist convention is that baptism is a conscious choice. I think Baptists don't baptize babies.
They don't. They don't accept that.
And if you that's that, that's and I I'm sorry if I misunderstood that.
No fair enough.
But I think too though that like I think that I agree that the rise in baptisms is a non data point, like it's a it's a non issue because basically what they're doing is they're.
Like, oh, like we're like, we're we're losing numbers.
Either it's because like their members are passing away, or you know, people aren't joining and you know they just never came back after the COVID pandemic, whatever the case is. They're like, we need a way to lock in some of these members. If we get them to if we like pressure them to get baptized, then we can pressure them to be here, Like you kind of committed to this now, so like you're a member of the church. NU,
So I think it's it's publicity. Basically, it's internal publicity to be like, you know, like everything is fine, like to not encourage others or to not give others the idea of also leaving the church.
One thing that I think would be interesting, And I mean this is a speculation, but I grew up Southern Baptists, and a big part of Southern Baptists kind of lore is the whole idea of like rededicating yourself to Christ kind of re the idea of backsliding is a big part. So it would make sense to me that during COVID, if people quote straight away from God that you generally do you go get rebaptized, you do it in front of people, because it involves a lot of like doing
things in front of people holding accountable. I grew up in a boat again, That's how I grew up, So it would make sense to me that if people slipped away quote unquote during COVID and they're rededicating, they're doing baptisms, it makes sense.
Is it sort of like a rebirth.
It's a rebirth. It's just a ritual that seems to be kind of typical within the Southern Baptist community. You there's a lot of like social shaming involved, and you always have to tell everybody about everything about you, even though it's not really the things you did, but it is, but it isn't. It's just it's a whole game.
So it's kind of like cleaning your sleep.
Yeah, it's just like it's like re like married couples who do their vows again in ten years and then do their vows again in ten years and hey, I just want to let you know that I'm still with you, babe, type of thing. That's kind of what it is.
Jesus forgiveness war off because they didn't give enough money to the church in a certain amount of time, so they need more of Jesus's forgiveness so they can keep getting money that they try.
Or Yeah, I mean, honestly, that's what it truly is. But the way you think it is is that you're the one who wore off. And the reason you don't feel it is because you need to rededicate it and you were back slid in and you have to get right with God, and it's all these little catchphrases and then you have to go up and like humble yourself in front of the congregation where really it's just it's a it's a narcissistic shaming technique. It's just a way
to devalue you back into your heart. Yeah, by by prostrating yourself in front of people and letting some person tell you about yourself. And yeah, it's really fucked up. I don't like it.
Put your body fully underwater, that makes.
Me so uncom Yeah, let another person push you underwater, and it's its total kick. It's like subcink shit. Man, It's just nobody really, it's like voyeurism and subkink stuff, and nobody wants to admit what it really is.
Waterboarded For Jesus.
It sounds hot. I mean he was a carpenter and he was a you know, Mediterranean guy. So I'm sure you're just fucking ripped. Try to do is fucking sexy, but you know, it's neither here nor there. I'm getting distracted.
Sorry, you know, I really like this article. It was pretty comprehensive. One of the things I think hadn't really summed up the whole thing. I think in one sentence when he wrote, instead of addressing the actual problem, the spc's members are focused on how to rearrange the deck chairs out of the Titanic. I thought that was a pretty good quote. But he does go on the list several things. But what do you all think is responsible for the overall decline in the SBC church attendance in the USA.
I think they're busy on the internet with their new religion. I think all they're doing is just playing musical fucking chairs. At this point, I don't think there's any room to celebrate. I don't think there's any room for optimism. I don't think that we should even think these people are not Christian or losing any faith. They're just buying into the new thing. They're modernizing their beliefs. Also, there's a die off of people, but yet religiosity is booming, immigration is booming,
globalization and time space compression is booming. So we can't view this as like as a rock or an island. This is a global community with no borders at this point. So what we're seeing is more people at home, but they're still obsessing over the religious fucking algorithm that is at this point religiously charged in the United States, so are or politically charged, but religious religio political religio however you want to put it so I can't. All they're
doing is just shifting chairs. I don't think there's a decline. I think there's an increase. Uh.
And well we know there's a decline though, I mean we do not I mean.
To a group.
Yeah, I know, but the amount of nuns has risen considerably. Not affiliated, right, not no.
Belief iligious, They're not affiliated.
You point that out there, Kelly.
But that's what I said, that decline of the church, the church, the DeLine of religion, I said, the decline of the church.
Yeah, the kline of the church really means nothing at this point, is probably even scarier because I would rather a church body overseeing some people. When you go rogue, you start doing a bunch of weird nuanced ship and that's where cults form, because you take the original thing and then you bastardize it and take and make it like a cut here different this way and a cut hair different that way. But that's how you do fucking cults.
So all we have now are a bunch of fucking cults everywhere, which eventually merge into a cults of personality. The religiosity, if anything, increases at that point, because you're sucking a fucking a ball of reinforced dog shit.
What do you think is when one of the things most responsible for it that the the church.
I'm not sure that I know that I know, Like the number.
One I said was church attendance, actually.
My notes, and I'll answer that because it's quicker, but I want to I I have something to say about what Jason said too. I think that Hemmant gave a really good kind of breakdown in the in the article that he wrote about it. You know, in between two thousand or in twenty twenty one, they had the thirteen
point six eight million. In twenty twenty two it dropped by four hundred and fifty thousand roughly, and then by by two hundred and forty thousand, and then two hundred and sixty thousand in the two U proceded or succeeding years, so and then he had the number. I don't think, uh, it's it remains at twelve point seven for so far this year roughly. So.
I think the.
Big part of it was the COVID pandemic, and people have just as Jason said, they're kind of like modernizing, like people sort of doing virtual online churches. They're like, wait, I don't have to get up like two hours early to get my whole. I don't have to dress up exactly. I don't have to iron these clothes. I don't have to come home and like you know, were these close a few times and then like steam press them or dry clean them.
So that like I don't have to be the all the gossip exactly.
It's more can be more comfortable and more you know, at home, worshiping at home.
Right, So that's what they're doing.
But I think that the I think the decline in the numbers.
They're their power is in their numbers.
Right.
So Ashmittt mentioned the SBC is responsible for like mission tripes where people go and like build houses, but only if you learn about God first, as if they've never like they don't worship yahweh in South America or you know, they they they lobby against anti LGBTQ or sorry, they lobby against LGBTQ, IA plus people against women and marginalized
groups and all these things reproductive rights. So the thing is that and why I said at the beginning that if half of the SBC churches close down because they lose too many members. That's going to be their least profitable half, and they're still talking sixteen point three million or sorry, six point three million people right in their
most profitable churches. And Southern Baptist churches operate independently of the convention of the SBC, So the power the SBC's power comes from the money they get from their churches that'll operate independently, and they can kind of just change what they're doing to fit with what people around them want and still be a part of the SBC and still send that money back. And I think if they start bleeding for money and they really need it, they're
not going to like pick and choose. They're going to pick and choose a lot less what their churches are teaching if it's going to Oh yeah.
That's a really good observation.
I want to give John a chance to answer this question since we're running out of time.
John, where do you think is responsible for the decline in church attendance?
I think everybody's kind of covered most of it. I think the decline in church also is that we live in a much more computer and electronic driven society, and it's always getting people to think in new and different ways. So anytime you're not having a structure that is fundamentally stable, then things are going to fall away and people are going to find new areas do that, like like Eli was saying, you know, online or something like that. But
as that changes, that's a different environment. It's not the environment that religion, that particular religion grew up in or evolved in. It's now where you can see that it's not going to be the same religion at all. It's you know, and what it turns into could be even scarier than the one you got, but it's not going to remain the same. And that's that's where we're seeing now, is that, Yeah, a lot of people aren't affiliating with a particular church or religion, But then what are they
doing with all those questions they had right? Are they actually looking into them or are they finding another dogma to follow? You know? Uh, you know, So it's like what's easier doing your own science or reading somebody else's take on it? You know, I'm afraid that people are going to get sucked in to a lot of very charismatic people and go down in even worse road than we've been on.
Yep, I agree, Yeah, I've.
Some great insights there.
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