Welcome to the Nonprofits the thrice weekly show, where we address news and current events through the lens of atheism and secular humanism. For our first segment this week, we'll be looking south to Oklahoma, where some fishy things have been happening with their statewide school standards. Steven Harder, please give us the lowdown.
You bet, thanks so much, Scott. Oklahoma's Superintendent of Public Instruction, Ryan Walters, is in hot water again, this time from nearly three dozen religious leaders, atheists, parents, students, and even teachers. He and his state Department of Education are being sued for not only the new education standards that they have published,
but also for how they went about enacting them. Highlights, or rather low lights, include things such as injecting Christian nationalist talking points into all grade levels, teaching conspiracy theories as facts, and quickly changing what was and wasn't included in the four hundred page document mere hours before it was supposed to be voted upon. Plaintiffs requests that the new standards be struck down before the new school year
begins in the fall. This story is from The Friendly Atheist and Matt Meta on July second, twenty and twenty five.
All right, thanks, Steven, I want to stay with you for a second. Let's pick this apart a little bit here. The article talked about there's odd timing with how these changes in the standards were presented to the state Board of Education. What happened with that odd?
Indeed, like a quick breakdown of the timeline, we'd be looking at, say December twenty twenty four, that's when Walter's first submits a draft of the standards that gains a lot of national attention because they are aggressively pushing reiight
wing talking points onto children. Then later on, in May twenty twenty five, just a couple months ago, Walter doubles down on some of the most problematic portions, making them even worse, and submits this updated four hundred page version around four pm, so end of day, the day before the vote takes place, So about nine hours later, the committee meets and votes to pass on the standards. No one's had time to review the four hundred page document to see what has and hasn't been changed. They just
vote on it, didn't go with it. But a week later, people start digging in and they start noticing the differences and that's when his underhanded tactics come to light and backlash increases. Now July second, the suit was filed arguing that the standards violate the Constitution, the whole separation of church and state, the process lacks transparency, and they should be struck down before the new school year begins.
All right, Yeah, that definitely seems like kind of a shift. Shifty. I think we're being generous there when we say that that was shifty. I want to jump over to Eli for a second.
Here.
Stevens just laid out some of these questionable strategies that they used to get it through the approval process. How else was the system right there? I think there's I think we're just scratching the surface here. What else is going on? How did he rig the system in his favor in getting these changes?
Asked so because it goes beyond like it's not just a biblical indoctrination, which he swears he's not doing, by the way, but like he's he's taking that and he's shoehorning it into a bill that also mandates things that you know, are that people will generally agree with, like free breakfast and lunch for kids, and like more funds going towards the benefit of the students instead of what he calls like the bureaucratic bloat, which is like administrative
fees and bureaucratic fees for the school, more money for teachers, more incentives for teachers, and things like that to attract, like, you know, and keep more teachers in the state. So these are things that are on the surface if you don't pay attention to like the details of how he
wants it done. On the surface, they sound good, but then he so he's taking people that want to vote in favor of those things because they really really want Oklahoma to come up from like forty ninth I think forty eighth or forty ninth in the country in education. And they're like, well, if I have to deal with the Bible, you know, to make that happen, then you know, is that really all that bad? And I think, you know, people are going to feel differently about that.
But there's almost literally it's like a shit filled eminem, right, he's candy quoting.
Yeah, yeah, I mean in a way. Yeah, And the thing is that the candy coding isn't even all that effective because like the lunch program, for example, isn't viable in most districts. He wants them to submit budgets immediately detailing how they're going to account for the free meals for the students from funds that they are already getting. He's not planning to allocate more funds for the purpose of doing this.
He funded mandates. Is that what you're saying?
Unfunded mandated? Yeah?
Yeah, okay, and.
Then he intends to if they cannot comply, if they can't work it into their budget, he'll send some people to talk to their budget, and if they just can't make it work, he will withdraw state funding from the school to punish them, I guess for being poor. So it at first it sounds like a shit filled eminem, but once you get closer, it's it's not. It's just shit.
Okay, So maybe just painted to look like an eminem. Yeah, well, there's there's there's definitely a road we can go down there. I should probably divert us right away. I want to jump back to Steven here. So obviously his methodology is again will be generous, questionable at best here, But what were what's some of the meat of what was going on here? What were some of the additions and changes that the new standards are going to focus on it.
Yeah, well, like he is very very proud of the fact that there are forty references to the Bible in these new standards that are sprinkled across all grade levels. So it's like in every every grade level learning about just how important the Bible is and how we need to give two talk about what the Bible says because
for fallacious reasons obviously. Also it talks about how students are to understand how Christian morality shaped American law and government, which just just smacks of indoctrination and not an iota of critical thinking of actually asking like, is this actually does a stand up to scrutiny, because what is Christian morality? Apparently it can mean anything from owning slaves if you're asking the founding fathers, certainly any kind of racist undertones
as well. And there's new facts to be talked to students as well, things that yeah, of course knew, not not the fake facts, the real facts of how maybe COVID nineteen was created in a Chinese lab and maybe there were let's explore the discrepancies in the twenty twenty election, just all stuff that President Pumpkin would love, love, love what he would feel so firm, so validated to know that children, children with taxpayer money are being fed this by authorities in their lives.
I don't know, call me crazy, but that sounds like a big misuse of power there to me.
I don't know.
I want to jump back over to to to Eli.
Here.
So Stephen was talking about some specific content changes that have been pushed through, but I want to I was wondering if you could address some new directions for the philosophy of this of the social Studies curriculum. I mean, what are some of the other more maybe broad strokes on the changes they're making here.
Yes, so, and I was grateful to him at metaphor this being the journalist that he is, he included some screenshots of the bill and the curriculum that talked about
you know what. He wanted to include some specific examples. So, firstly is the idea that he wants to that that Ryan Walters wants to incorporate American exceptionalism into the social studies curriculum, which is this idea that the United States, which contrary to the name, he does not mean all of the Americas he means the United States is inherently exceptional because of all of the influence that you know, the early settlers and the founders had from the juju
from the Christian Bible. It's not just that we need to give two fucks, like you said, Stephen about the Bible. It's that the giving of fuck comes from the Bible.
And that's kind of where you know that passage.
Yes, it was the eleventh commandment, give a.
Fuck to the Bible.
Okay, got you. But there's some examples from the curricula for in first grade, for example, explain the purpose and meeting and meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance and the significance of the phrase under God. And by that I don't think he means the fact that it was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in nineteen fifty four, right, not when it was written originally.
Identifying the frying print, Right, you got to read the print to get that kind of stuff right.
Identify and explain the meaning of the United States official motto in God we Trust, including the importance of religion to the American people. I guess we're not Americans. Well, I mean, Stephen, but Scott, I guess, I guess we're not Americans because religion is not important to us. You know.
Second grade identify stories from Christianity that influence the American colonists and the founders and culture, including the teachings of Jesus and Nazareth e g. The Golden Rule and the Sermon on the Mount, and for eighth graders, evaluate the role of Judeo Christian ideals in supporting colonial demands for independence as exemplified. This is specific in the Greek as exemplified by the Bible being a frequently cited authority by
America's founders. I'd be like, if that were naturally the conclusion, Like when you when you say evaluate the world Judeo Christian ideals, you know in this thing, I feel like if you have to say, as exemplify by this specific thing like that, it's because that's not a natural answer to to like what you're asking for. And you're like, what he's saying is teach specifically this because specifically this, and like he's he says, you know, we don't want
to preach to in in the classrooms. We shouldn't be indoctrinating the students, wink wink. But what he says is to focus on the historical, literary, and secular value of the King James version of the Bible. And I think that there is no historical or literary value in that Bible that you can't get from anywhere else. And there's no other secular value to speak of that I'm aware of.
And the thing makes maybe a good paper weight or something, and they I suppose that would be a secular value, right yeah, pap, Wait.
Really not even go ahead like well, like secularly speaking, like I like I am. I'm thrilled when these lawmakers, you know, tip their hand and say, well, it's got to be the new King James version, because like, the more that children can be forced to endure the King James version of all versions, the more they can distance themselves and say this is bullshit, I don't really care about this. That will that change them from like identifying
oh yeah, I'm Christian on the surface. No, but at least that won't have any The more that they get forced into this kind of exposure, hopefully, the less roots they actually are able to put down, especially using a version like the King James.
I wonder if it would just kind of reinforce what they're learning in church.
You know what I mean, that's the whole point. I mean, isn't exactly the objective here.
That's kind of That's kind of what I thought, because I remember when I was a kid of thinking how different the things were that I was learning on Sunday and then learning Monday through Friday. And so the idea here is put the same thing from Sunday and every other day so that they get this consistent this this consistent influx of his information, and it will seem more true, it will feel more naturally true, I.
Guess, right, yeah, or at least less conflict to deal with, it would be it makes it easy to swallow basically sticking with that eminem metaphor there, right, yeah, so coaches with a spoonful of sugar. I want to jump back to Stephen real quick here. So I think we all know what the real motivation is here, right. We want to this is unashamed, unadulterated indoctrination of Oklahoma's children. And I mean, can you expand on that a little bit more? I mean you were just kind of touching on it
a little bit there. I mean, what do you what do you think about that they're doing this to the Oklahoma's children.
Yeah, like it was. It was so good for me.
Like it was.
It was like for me to just like dig into this article and the why why is this happening, and it just became like a real crystal moment that white supremacy doesn't need burning crosses anymore, that this is all about feeding a Christian nationalist base, sucking off President Pumpkin, dumbing down the public, and paving the way to privatize education. All of those things. All of those things are things that support folks that have privilege while erasing those without.
There's nothing, there's nothing about this that is trying to increase diversity. It's all about crystallizing power around the people who have power. It's about building those buttresses, about building those barriers, and this is a way of radicalizing children.
It's so great to be able to look at countries that we cultures that were not familiar here right in North America, to look to places in Asia, to look to places in the Middle East, and to not understand how they can be so different, so barbaric in air quotes, and like even just the idea of Israeli's mentally checking out and say, well, no, they're not really human, they're just Palestinians. They're a different kind of human. And for us to be like, whoa, that is so radical? How
could you possibly think that? And to see that, Okay, this is what this is how you get to that place by feeding children this kind of bullshit and just using your power, using your privilege to force it upon them, and too like this is just a buttressing of that that system, a systematic marginalization of people who aren't in power.
I'm getting I'm getting a weird sense of deja vu as I listened to you there, Steve, and it seems like, hmm, this seems like some kind of recurring theme. Eli. So how do you think this fits into like a bigger strategy for Christian nationalism in the United States.
Well, we were just we just talked about this, I think it was last week on a non profits. Texas just passed the same thing, the Ten Commandments in public schools. We covered this on Oklahoma when they first put you know, Ryan Walters. We talk about Ryan Walters a lot. I feel like maybe he and I should kiss. I don't know.
But the point being, every week on the nonprofits.
Yeah, we talked about him so much. I just feel like, I don't know, let's just get it over with Ryeber. But sorry, I lost my train of thought. Texas just did the same thing last week. He he wants the KJV in classes UH five through twelve, Grades five through twelve, Ryan Walters does in Oklahoma. And like I mentioned a little bit ago, it's for you know, the secular value. And color me skeptical, but I don't know of any secular value like I mentioned a minute ago, that you
can get out of the Bible. And the only value I see that is novel to the Christian Bible is theological in nature. So like the moral codes you get them from you know, you get them from Sumerians, from the code of Hammurabi, from Uh the Submerians. Was like or namu, I think, But like you know, all those more ancient codes than the Hebrew law that these you know, Judeo Christian values are coming from. You can get them
elsewhere without the theology. So why is it specifically the Bible, Why is it specifically the Christian Bible, And why is it specifically the KJV. It's just it's it's the same they're they're just they want the same blanket Christianity across the the you know, the nation. And it has been said many times before any man I can't remember the words of I think it was Hamilton who had said it originally, Like whoever, and any any church, any government that can rule you know, on one you know, sect
of Christianity can rule out any other sect of Christianity. Right, So yeah, it doesn't.
Yeah, that's something that I think that many religious people kind of miss out on. You know, they're they're push in favor of theocratic I mean, and this and this really does reek of theocracy here, right, we're incorporating the theology into the school, into the school curriculum. But any kind of theocracy, you run the risk of losing that religious freedom. Religious freedom is not just freedom from religion, but also freedom on what kind of religion you want
to you want to be a part of. And so if I mean, this kind of thing is just as bad for other Christians as it is for Muslims, as it is for Hindus, as it is for the non religious like us or or whomever, or people who are staunchly Christian and just want to have a secular government, and you know it's it's it's really very troubling. So thanks for that, Eli. I want to I have a question that I want to address to both of you. Textbooks.
Textbooks are an issue because because we're not when you change standards, when you make drastic changes to standards like that, it's not just like, oh, the schools just need to change what they say next Wednesday, you know, change this one paragraph. I mean even though they have to get all new materials, they need to have textbooks designed around those standards, and they have to have teacher training and
all this kind of stuff. So it really is a significant effort on the part of the school districts to implement these changes. It's not just a wave of a pen or sneaking something under the wire like happened here. So I have a two part question here, and I'll give you both a chance to take a stab at here. First, is so, given the political climate in the US today, do you think these changes in the standards can survive?
I mean, obviously there against the US Constitution, but these days that doesn't guarantee that something's going to get struck down. You know, do you think they're likely to be revoked and or rewritten. Are they going to stay for a little while or is this the bell weather for bigger changes that are on the horizon. That's part one. Part two is assuming that publishers will us for these really highly specialized changes in the standards in time for the
upcoming school year. Right, we got just like another two months until the school year starts. Do you think that independent publishers like oh, I don't know, Prager, you or the Heritage Foundation or anything like that, do you think they're going to step up and fill in the gap there? Do you think that might be part of the intention? Could we even see chick tracks in Oklahoma classrooms? And so I want to I want to start with Stephen there first. Do you think these changes are likely to
stay or are they? Are they a sign of what's more to come? And do you think that the the late introduction of these for this coming school year do you think that was maybe part of the plan so that they could use some of this uh private uh privately produced materials?
Well, I don't know. That would sound kind of profitable for these Christian publishing places to be able to churn out and get these books off their shelves into government run schools. That's I don't know. I don't think Christian publishing houses are that unethical, are they? Yeah, yeah, it's thankfully Yeah, it would be an issue like not only for you know, generating textbooks out of nowhere, clearly they would have to be reaching out to Zondervan or some
other publishing place to help fill those gaps. But also like I'm not a I'm not a classroom teacher, but just the idea that suddenly I need to be reworking all of my materials to emphasize these new standards, and that that doesn't sound like a quick and easy overhaul.
There is no small task there. That is a major deal there, that's right, right, Yeah, of course, yeah, if you care.
And especially for for Christians, for teachers who are not Christians, who aren't a member of the faith or are part of a different faith. Like yeah, let's I don't know, I don't know if Hindus are allowed to live in Oklahoma. I don't know if they're allowed to teach in Oklahoma. But what do they know about? Are they as well versed in the Sermon on the Mount as everybody else? Right? Should they have to be and yet will it stand?
I hope that it doesn't, but I also hope that we're living in a simulated.
Reality exactly exactly. Ye don't we all? Eli, I want to abandon the questions that I was just asking because Steven, what Stephen was saying just kind of gave me a question here, So I want to I want to focus on one last thing before we wrap things up here, and that is the idea that so the teachers, there might be non Christian teachers in Oklahoma that have to learn this material. Do you think they're trying to proselytize the teachers as well with this?
That is super interesting because I didn't take it exactly that direction, but when Steven said that, I thought the same thing, like, Yeah, there's a bunch there's got to be teachers that like don't really know the stories in
the Bible. Now they have to spend the next you know, two forty two to four to five weeks not only preparing all their other lesson plans, but also reading the Bible and familiarizing themselves with what it says so that they can teach it in the ways that they're expected to. I mean, it certainly would serve a theocratic or maybe it's going to drive out some of the non Christian teachers.
You know, maybe maybe they're hoping the non Christian teachers will just throw their hands up and you know go to you know, Colorado or something.
Yeah, I don't know, somewhere better there.
Yeah, yeah, we should. We should get him on the show to have him talk about it.
Yeah, he's he's I think he's way on his way out of Oklahoma. I don't know who knows, but the It definitely would be serving to a theocracy to you know, to have only teachers that who know and believe what the Bible says and believe that it is, you know, fundamental and and inherent to the origin of the United States. So yeah, it might not just be the kids that they're they're they're targeting, right right.
I suppose if all the teachers were Christian, then there would get much less pushback from the teacher organizations and so forth.
Right, Yeah, it would kind of be this way already to a smaller degree.
Well, that's whatever, however that's going to work out. I'm imagining it's not going to be entirely pleasant.