In a chilling revelation at the recent Conservative Political Action Conference commonly known as Seapack, ultra right wing republican Jack Prosbyak stated, and I quote, welcome to the end of democracy. We are here to overthrow it completely. We don't get all didn't get all the way there on January sixth, but we will endeavor to get rid of it and replace it with this right here, and
then he held up a chain with the big cross on it. Following in lockstep, former Weiss House advisor and outspoken white supremacist Steve Banyon yelled out Amen amidst fervent cheers. Prosobiacs declaration demonstrates the GOP's majoritarian embrace of theoretic theocratic authoritarianism. Republicans of parent zeal to dismantle Americans democratic institutions, often implied or spoken behind closed doors, is now out of the closet for all to know.
As the specter of authoritarianism loons large. For Sovieacs remark serve as a stark reminder of the perilous path are weakened democracy faces in the hands of its detractors. This is a story based on the New Republic article by Tory oughten, February twenty third, twenty twenty four. So Scott, what do you think, you know out of the closet? Indeed, right, And so you know they're not only saying the quiet parts all allowed these days, but it's
all quiet parts, right. And so you know, Churchill famously said democracy is the worst form of government except for all of the others, and so we're going to we may get a chance to experience that ourselves. And you know, it's it's really kind of ironic, you know, and it would
be hilarious if it weren't so ominous and terrifying. It's it's, you know, we start, you know, power to the people quickly fades to power to some people, and that even goes to power to one person, right, And so's it's the freedom that is afforded to individuals, especially people who find themselves in position of power. They exercise that freedom to maintain that power. They they kind of push the you know, they push the envelope there.
They try to manipulate the system. And if democracy is getting in the way, then democracy has to go, right, And so that's really the issue that they're talking about here. I found a book review from a Georgetown professor by the name of Fetali Mogatam. He wrote this book. He sees that fear and crisis management is the tool that can slap the manacles of dictatorship onto the free hands of democracy. He thinks that that is really the motivator
here. We've heard that before. We've talked about this kind of thing on the nonprofits before, but it's really fear as a motivator. His book is called Threat to Democracy The Appeal of Authoritarianism in an Age of Uncertainty, and he talks about in the book about how, you know, we've seen this
kind of thing happen before. We've seen the individuals using fear within the context of a free or at least a semi free society, and they use that to kind of rile up their support and you know, don't worry, I can save us, right. They present it, and you know, we've seen this kind of thing in religion all the time. They mock up this threat. You know, they fan the flames of fear and then they say,
hey, I'm the only one who can solve your problem. Put me in charge, right, And then of course it gets to be too late. In the book, he points out, the dictator then attacks institutions and individuals that have the power to constrain them. Such crisis incidents in the past have included the Iran hostage crisis that swept Commani into power and the twenty sixteen coup that brought Airdwan to power in Turkey. And so here's the interesting thing
about his book though. He believes that the people who want open societies would be better served with a bottom up approach. It's about people talking about things. It's about people broaching those previously you know, no touch subjects. He said, we need more civic engagement and civic education, and we need to strengthen local activists. We've got a lot of emphasis at the moment on national efforts, but we also need to get down at the local level. Resistance
through local activism is often the most successful. And so what that means is that we need to be active. We need to have those difficult political conversations. I think that in this case it might be a case where light can be the most infectant, I'm sorry, the most effective disinfectant. Right. We want if we shine light on the issue. At least that's what this
He's a psychologist. At least that's what he thinks is that if we can get people talking, if we can raise awareness of what's happening, then we'll be in a much better position to combat it and Fidel. My biggest concern is that people are going to look at this and they're going to take it with oh, clickbait mentality. We hear so many outrageous things being said time and again that I'm not sure that most people are even going to take this
seriously. But I think we should. And this is going to be somebody that I'm sure is real popular with everyone here. But years ago, a federal Robert Borke, wrote a book called Slouting towards Gomora, and I have a feeling that we as a country right now are just kind of slip sliding, slouting towards Gilead, where we have a group of people in this country they want a theocracy. I don't think that they're just saying this to rile
people up. I think they're saying this because that's what they want. They want a power grab so they can get control of this country. And this is no exception. They believe that their God should dictate to government, not government rights coming from the government, but since their rights come from God, they should listen to God first. This is lowest common denominator politics. This is something to reach out and grab those people who honestly aren't educated on the
subjects that matter. And this is what concerns me, because they are going to vote and do the things that they want to do based on their emotions and what sounds good and what fits what they hear at church. More than what's better for the people around us or as you mentioned, the local community, what's best for the people in their community, or even themselves, they
consistently act against their own self interest. Honestly, I will admit that this is a mix, in my opinion, of true believers and your typical opportunitists. And oftentimes, of course you have believers who well, they're going to take some opportunities on the side too. And I really hope that the exposure to this type of talk and to this type of rhetoric, they're projecting out
what they want, what their goal is. I just hope it's and it's our job to make sure that we take people when they say this at their word. Because they don't want to democracy, they want a theocracy. Kelly, Yeah, you're right. I think a lot of people don't realize that going to a theocracy what that would do to us, And they think that the entire country would go for something like that, and that is the only way to solve our problems, because God's the perfect problem solver, right.
I don't think that that's the way to go. Obviously, there's a lot of problems to come with it. There's a reason why our founding fathers made the separation between government and religion. We talked about it earlier this week and another story about how you know, a conflict between Protestants and Catholics, and I again, this is that same problem where these Christian nationalists have this idea that everybody thinks the exact same way they do, and I don't think they
realize how small of a minority that they actually are. Three and ten Americans actually identify as Christian nationalists. Now, how does that three and ten? Not all of them, when asked, gave the same definition of what a Christian nationalist is, so a lot of them didn't realize what exactly the term represents. They thought, Hey, I'm a Christian, I love this country. I think this is a Great Nation. So yeah, I guess I'm
a Christian nationalist. They don't realize what these group of fanatical people like pasobiac who are and what they're trying to push. So I don't even think that three and ten Americans are Christian nationalists. And so then I start thinking about this, is this something that we get fired up about? This? We're always talking about it. They are the enemy in a lot of ways.
But are we overstating the danger from these people? I mean, if they're not three and ten, let's conservatively say they're two and ten, we can beat them in any election. We can beat them in a fight if we had to. Is this really is Are they really the big danger that we think we are, not that we shouldn't be saying telling everybody what they're they are, Like Scott says, this is what we need to do is inform people and bring the light from the top from the bottom up right. But
I have to wonder if we're just kind of like overblowing the problem. Richard. I wish what you're saying was true, but I think it's exactly the opposite of that. First of all, they've got a majority of friends on the Supreme Court. Yes they do. They got five. They got five Catholics on the Supreme Court. Not you didn't listen carefully. I didn't say
Christian nationalists. I said friends. And that court has been giving more leeway and twisting the First Amendment around to make it be like it's a benefit for religion to not be picked on as opposed to non religions to be picked on. It's transforming, it's changing, and it's not good. I mean,
I follow this los stuff very carefully, and it's scary. Okay. There have been some decisions recently, like the one in Washington about the coach being allowed to give prayers at the end of the football game, which would never have had happened at a previous court never, So it's something we really need to worry about. Besides that they have the Heritage Foundation on their twenty twenty five program and they've got some billionaires behind them, so it's you know,
you don't have to be the biggest group if you're well organized. And when you said we could fight them, I beg to differ with you. I would bet that more of those Christian nationalists have ar fifteens than secular humanists do. So I think we've got to be really careful about this and not you know, I mean they're trying to take over school boards and start book banning. Look what happened in Florida. I mean it happens in Texas too. I mean they tried to put it. They tried to put pastors in for
school counselors that had no school counseling training. They're trying to infuse their ideology at all levels. And they're getting away with it quite a bit, fighting it a lot. They haven't won it yet, and you know, but but I think it's more dangerous because they want to do it, and they're willing to do it, and in some respects they have some foreign allies,
which is very unfortunate. But we just have to be really careful when we see that stuff happening and speak out against it, stand up against it. The thing that most people don't realize, well, first of all, there's an education problem, you know, for the same reason why a lot of us are involved in this organization. There's a lot of people that were not taught as they grew up to be skeptical. They were taught to believe whatever
some authority told them. That creates a horrible problem. But the other side of it that when I talk to some of these people, you know, they think, well, the guy that I want to be in charge, he'll be my friend. Guess what he dies, His son takes over or his cousin takes over, and he doesn't like you. And now there's no courts to go to. There's no due process, there's nothing, just the dictator. That's the I mean, look at the way Putin runs Russia.
If you don't like his stuff, you fall out of a six story building. I mean that's you know, there's no place to complain there. And that's the difference. I mean, our legal system has problems, but I'll tell you it's head and shoulders above most others. And at least you're going to have your day in court, and you know there are people to help you if somebody messes with you. So I am deeply concerned about this move towards theocracy. I find it very scary. Scott. Yeah, Richard,
you said something about an education problem, and I agree with that. I totally agree with that. Kelly, you said that three and ten Americans identify as Christian nationalists. Last time I was on the nonprofits. I quoted some research that said over half of American adults know nothing about Christian nationalism. They've never heard anything about it. And I would imagine that those two groups are
heavily, heavily overlapping. I would bet that many of those people that said, yeah, I'm a christ just like you were saying, they saw the word Christian there and they saw kind off on it. They scrolled right to the bottom of that user agreement and sign their name. And so I think I agree with doctor mcgottam, and I think that, uh, you know, education, I think is a key. There was one quote from the article that I wanted to bring up here, and I think that will kind
of illustrate what we're talking about here. He said, we didn't get all the way here all the way there on January sixth, but we will endeavor to get rid of it and replace it with this right here, he said, gesturing to the crowd and holding up his fist. All glory is not to government, all glory to God. And then just here, correct you, I saw the actual thing. He didn't hold up his fist, he held up across on a chain. Even better, even better. Okay,
so that's where it was. But then Bannon his response was to laugh and say amen. And so you know, I have to wonder, and I know, I'm I might be the only one on the panel here that thinks this, but I wonder if I wonder if the the religion aspect is just merely a tool. I wonder if it's just a way of firing up that fear you know, we need. It's a it's a convenient tool. I'm not convinced that the Christian nationalist leaders are in fact concerned at all about the
Christianity. I'm not going I don't. I don't think that that that's their main thing. I don't think that they're I don't think that they want a theocracy. I think that they want a dictatorship. And again, you know, I I I may or may not be the only one who thinks that, but I it's it's frightening, and it's it's something that that people can you know, people hold their religion very tightly to their identity, and that
makes them vulnerable for that. You know, we see you know people, you find out what's important to a person and you attack that thing, or you you pose you you make it seem like that thing is being attacked. You make it seem like that identity is being attacked. You make it seem like your religious faith is being attacked. Your God is is you know,
is being attacked here. Your belief in your God is being attacked. What more could be foundational to your personality than and your belief in your God? And that's being threatened? What are you going to do about it? You know? And and so it's that kind of thing. I think that there's plenty of manipulation going on here. I think that, And again, maybe I'm being cynical, maybe I'm being you know, paranoid here, but we
we see it happen frequently, you know. We see we see candidates holding up bibles, we see you know, preaching from front, we see uh electioneering happening at the pulpits. We see all this, all this kind of overlap. And I think that that blurriness. I think that lack of education in this case is a feature and not a bug, and I think that's being I think things are being misused. And I think that again going back to doctor Mogotham's idea that we need to talk about, we need to encourage
discussion, We need to talk to each other. We need to help spread that. We need to solve that education problem Richard, that you were talking about. And really the only way to do that is to be open and to be and to talk to other people. Breach those conversations, have that conversation with that uncle that you know, you know it's going to be uncomfortable,
but talking about it can help. And you know, it might not change that person's mind, but there might be somebody watching that that will that will be affected, or at least they will be a little bit more knowledgeable about the situation. Maybe we can move that dial. You know, fifty four percent, I think it was of Americans that had no idea what Christian nationalism was. We can push that. Maybe, if we can, you know, push that, you know, down in the in the negative direction,
then we can help things. Maybe we can make a difference by doing things like we're doing right now, having these discussions with each other, by watching discussions online, or you know, encouraging discussions online. You know, there are things that we can do to overcome that education problem. And of course I'm biased as being an educator. You know, I think that education is power, and I think this is an perfect example of that particular idea.
Infidel. I do think that education is one of the big tools that they themselves fear. You know, we look at situation in North Carolina where lieutenant governor just got he's running for governor now, and he wants to remove social studies and science up until the fifth grade. He doesn't even want to be even being taught in class because they want an ignorant population. They want a series of people who go, oh, okay, this sounds right.
They want people who are sitting week in and week out with their electioneering pastor spewing hate and nonsense and all sorts of vile things over that pullpit to those people's that's what they want. And I do think you're right. And as I mentioned earlier, there are some true believers in there, you know. I take Mike Johnson. I believe he's a true believer, But overall there's many who are just opportunists. They're looking for a dictatorship. They're looking to
replace our government with something else. And right now, they know that there are people on that side who yes, see the world around them changing and through that are fearful of those changes, and they're getting told day in and day out when they go to church that there's a problem, that the problem is them and not you, and that's reinforcing it. And inside of that echo chamber, my concern is is, yes, in time, those numbers
are continuing to go against them. They're dwindling, they're hurting, the churches are dying, their attendance is going dropping consistently. But right now they're a
great tool. And when you take these people who ten years ago were completely apolitical, couldn't have told you who the governor of their state was, couldn't have even named one US representative, and now they think they're constitutional experts, and really all they are are people that can't even give a complete sentence of trying to explain anything about politics, but they think they've got it all figured
out. And that's the people that people like this are going far trying to feed them into this because they don't need to know what Christian nationalism is. As you said, they need to scroll down to the bottom of the user agreement, check the box, and sign off, and that's what they're looking for. That's all they need. They don't want people to understand what Christian nationalism really is, and whether they care about it or not. Yes,
they want their person and power, whoever that is. They want to end this system because it's an inconvenience to them. So with that in mind, I agree there are uncomfortable conversations that need to be had and we need to have those. We need to continue to have those because being silent helps no one but them. Kelly, Yeah, I did one point before we break this up. A lot of liberals do have guns, they just don't talk
about it. I could arn this whole panel. So you know all the A C shows and podcasts forum at tiny dot c C slash a C, A E N podcast So check it out