Beaving folks, and thank you for joining us again on the nonprofits. What happens when Christianity when faith based organizations or power structures as I like to call them, get involved in healthcare? Do you get your money's worth? Helen is going to take us through this next segment. Helen over to you.
So let's talk about how Jesus saves, but not on attorney bills. So in Christian Hypocrisy News, healthcare sharing ministries may have seen two religious families as a great alternative to private insurance, but as religious families who are struggling financially. Guess what Jesus wants those dalla dolla bills.
Baby and screw your baby in the process.
It's a country where medical costs are through the roof, lack of regulation and faith based charitable organizations and the ever present profit over people motive plaguing a post capitalist society. We are now seeing these abuses happen more and more. I'm sure the j me of this has not being lost in our wonderful audience on This story comes from Area Bendex of NBC News and was published on December
twenty second, twenty twenty four. I have many things to say about this, because I learned about this and it just pisses me off. But I'm just gonna I'm gonna let my host do his job judge to my opinions.
I'm gonna I can I can see the stem coming out of your ears now, So I am gonna let you cool down, and I'm gonna kick it over to Stephen and get his opinion first, and then when we come back to you, you can tear the mic up.
Okay, thank you, thank you, because I get opinions.
But Stephen, you know I wonder and trust me, I get the concern, I get the frustration, especially when it comes to bringing a child into the world. But in an effort excuse me to be objective, I kind of try to look for ways to play Devil's advocate. Should these people know better? Should they have planned better? And can you have any kind of empathy for them going through a situation like this?
Yeah? Like I believe the nutshell of this what the article is talking about is when you have these ministries quote unquote that you know you pay into so that you can then share that they will then cover the costs of your healthcare needs, except if you get pregnant in the first year, then they are not going to cover your pregnancy your labor costs. So if you're going to be doing this healthcare cost sharing program, make sure
that your labor only happens after the first year. And so if you happen to need to give birth within that first year, sorry, we're not going to cover that, which puts a lot of people into an awkward situation like like, I'm a guy, so I know that comes with privilege, but I don't, like I've never been in a situation where I've had an unexpected pregnancy. I've been involved in two pregnancies and we have to work really
hard for both of them. So the idea of like whoops, we got pregnant and now we're stuck with having this baby, Like if there's a potential for you to be getting pregnant, Like, how how hard should you be working if you're if there's a slight chance that you could be getting pregnant and you'd have to go bankrupt in order to have that parent because that's what your medical care system is all about, Like shouldn't what what do you need to
do in order to protect yourself from that financial possibility? That that's that's that's a position where I'm coming from. And uh, and maybe that's that's Uh Is that cruel? Is that heartless? I don't know, but it just feels like if you're going to run the risk of having a baby and you don't have a financial plan in place for having it, then that's something that is you really should be looking into. Yeah, so these these organizations,
it's still messed up. But the whole in Canada, we did not have to pay for our labors, So it's hard for me to be invested in this scenario.
Yeah, And I think this is indicative of a system that is designed to allow abuses to take place and to not really safeguard people. Maybe the way that your system is, you know, I found it fascinating when I learned that the Conservative Party in Canada was supportive of universal health care. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. And so that is a completely different mindset and a
completely different system that we're used to here. But being here knowing the pitfalls that come with insurance, because even regulated insurance companies try and get out of pay right and then you combine that kind of process with the church, I mean, we're talking about religion here. They're not giving you any money they'll ask for, but they'll tell you
to pray to solve your own problems. And so, you know, Helen, on that note, I feel like, men, it's maybe fair to criticize their lack of planning or their lack of education. Am I being too harsh to Stephen being too harsh? What are your thoughts taken away?
So I'm gonna come from a little bit of a different perspective because I I as a parent and someone that you know, when my kids are young, we you know, had some kind of financial plan, you know, for our kids when we decided to have children, me Max, husband, and like, I get that, but we have to keep in mind these people are religious.
They grew up impurity culture.
Especially these like these very extreme religious beliefs that the church is supposed to take care of you.
One.
Two, your job is to get married and push out babies, you know, and grow the flock or whatever. And you're not gonna get proper like sex and education and preventative pregnancy education.
Like that's not happening to these people, you know.
And and from the work I've done with recovering from religion. People that grow up in these cultures, they are so isolated they don't know like what the broader populace, the secular society does know because they're they're kept from that information. So yes, I do agree that you should have like that's not an excuse not to have some kind of
financial plan. But when you're taught that the church is supposed to like step in and help you because you don't want to do secular society because you know, the devil or whatever, you know, you want to rely on the church. And these scams because they're scams. They are scams. If anyone John Oliver did a whole section show on this three years ago, I highly recommend go look it up that episode on.
Uh these you know HCSM scams.
They're really it's really really interesting because as the idea was is that you know, these people would pay into basically what would be insurance. There's a pool of money, you know, everybody, and that that money would it's basically.
Like universal income you payment of money.
And then that if something comes up like you need there's additional medical costs like pain for am attorney that's supposed to be covered and and even so people that have insurance, if there's additional cost these this this isn't what was designed that if you couldn't afford those additional costs, they would step in, yeah, and help them, and they deny claim again and again and again.
Thank you for explaining that, because we here, we are, you know, halfway through the episode, and we haven't even explained to our viewers what it is that we're actually talking about. I mean you did in the intro. But yeah, uh so they're they're getting out of paying uh and they're they're set up to help people. And you made a fascinating point. I kind of considered that a mic
drop moment. You know, you you're right. These people are raised to not look for answers, to not be educated, and then when it comes time for adulting, they just don't know how to because they're told all their tools would come from the church, and then their church turns it back on them. And I didn't even think of it that way. So I thought that was great. And on that note, I want to get to Tracy. You know, Tracy,
what would be a good solution for this? I mean, is there a more elegant solution in protecting these maternity issues.
There's yes, Stephen, Yes that that is that is an elegant solution. But yes, it is almost talking to Stephen.
I'm just sorry, Stephen.
Stephen pointed at himself and I appointed himself. I just had to acknowledge him, all right, But yeah, there's almost certainly a more elegant solution. Yeah, I mean, if we're if we're really going to buy into the idea behind, the whole process, behind and I mean the whole thing. It's a it's a religious organization. So clearly there's a
component of faith. And whether you you know, ascribe that as faith, you know, being the evidence of things not seen, or just belief without any evidence, or just trust, as I've heard many people use it. Maybe the church could exercise, or these ministries rather could exercise a little bit of trust in their can in their people. But of course they're not going to do that. So let's let's make
it legal. Let's let's put a legal eSEE thing in there in the agreement, put that if you have any such claim of this nature, then bind them to being part of the ministry for X amount of years or X amount of months, or x amount of whatevers, and that way, if they default on that, you can go after this money. If they're really about getting that bag,
then lock them in, make make it a debt. I mean, there's there's plethora of ways that we could make this a more elegant solution than just dropping people and saying no, we're not going to help you. Even though we said we're going to help you. We put it in fine print three pages down this twenty page agreement that we're not going to help you in exactly this scenario. It's kind of ridiculous.
And that's funny that you say that, because something that stood out to me twice in this article, the author mentioned that the caveats to receiving payment were on page I think it was like forty three or forty five of the agreement, and I'm like, read all forty five pages. You know, I don't care where it is. You know, in my opinion, I was kind of like, well, you know, don't try and defend these people because they didn't make it all the way to the end, or because the
fine print was all the way at the end. But you're right on another note, you know, on the flip side, I think reasonably the church should probably be able to protect itself. I think it's really a really sticky situation to let law and government get involved with the church, because that could have other other consequences that I don't want to delve into. I will just say that I do like the division of church and state and want to keep it that way. Go ahead, Tracy, go ahead. Follow up.
I would like to say, I would really like that if churches stayed churches and stop trying to pretend to be insurance companies.
You're right, You're right, You're absolutely right, and stop you know, violating their five o' one C three status and and you know, uh talking politics and and uh offering political support from their pulpits. Yeah, I get it. But coalescing with that, I think is also is also pretty dangerous. And I think, uh, you know, you raise a valid point. I do want to ask Stephen, though. You know, Stephen, you're a former Catholic, right, what is you know what
that's perfect? That is perfect? So I'm gonna start with Steven and go right down the line. You know, why don't each of you take a moment to give me kind of a glimpse into what your experience was and and tell me you know, as former religious people, you know, what are the quickest ways to realize that you're kind of being duped And so Steven go.
Ahead, sure, like being duped by like an organization like that or what yeah.
I mean so, so I know that you feel like, you know, really delving into the Bible, for example, is a good way of showing that maybe the best the best interests, your best interests are not being looked after by by the people that say they're going to support you, just like these women who are giving babies, these families who excuse me that are having babies. But what was your experience like as a Catholic when did you realize, huh, this is not in my best interest?
Oh yeah, interesting, like as like Mennonites are kind of the opposite of Catholic. But yeah, so like when I, for me, I would say that I would realize that,
like my Mennonite faith wasn't in my best interest. Primarily when I started to realize, especially the evangelical part of it, that was saying that, you know, my perspective is the perspective that matters, and it's the perspective of others that I need to disregard, especially when I was doing my missions work like that, Like, you can only sit with that in a neutral state for so and so long, and you'll either have to like cement in and say yes, I am right and know they are wrong, or these
are human beings and there is something inherent about their humanity that makes that I need to reflect upon and honor and respect. And it was only once I left the faith that I was really able to like actually respect other people again. So that was the biggest thing for me. It was just realizing how far I had come away from just respecting my fellow human being and it's so nice to regain that.
That's very interesting and I think that relates a lot to what we talked about the other night on Monday Night as far as people benefiting and not benefiting and having respect for others. Uh, definitely gonna check that out if you have it. But Helen, in your experience, you know, when did you realize, Hey, this church, this this group is not They're not my people.
When I was a teenager and I found out I was queer, you know, you grab in the nineties, and you know, and we were pretty liberal Cathics, so it wasn't like very extreme. I mean, like I definitely got some bad messaging, especially about like sexuality and things like that. But I realized that I had a lot of problems with the church, especially as a woman and as someone
that is queer. There's a lot of mixed messaging and that as I got older, I realized I was like, wait a second, I'm like this doesn't make any sense, and this and this, and these groups of people don't really care about like rights. They don't care, you know, about my health. They don't care, you know, really about me as a person. They just what I represent to them, which is a baby maker. And I'm supposed to sit down and shut up, listen to my husband and pop
up kids. And that's what religion teaches women, you know, extreme forms of religion. I don't want to say all religion.
That's not fair.
Luckily my parents were liberal Catholics, so that message didn't stick obviously. But but like getting back to the article, that's the thing that we're seeing though, because in these structures when you have you know, churches acts as insurance companies, and yes, I wish it was charitable, like they were like we're going to pull this money and then this way we can help follow people in our congregation or that are part of this faith, and when they're financially struggling,
we will step in and help them. But there they operate like a business, just like everything else. They're operating like a private insurance company, but they're selling it as a charity. And that's what makes it worse, because when you're taught that your church is supposed to be your family and the people that are supposed to take care of you, and they don't do it. And these I hope they go through a religious deconversion. That'd be great, but even still, that still doesn't pay the bills. It
doesn't help those families deal with the financial costs. And that's what religion does. It hands you a promise, but it doesn't deliver.
Yeah, yeah, that's what it's based on. Tray your thoughts on that sentiment, Helen.
I'm going to have to agree vehemently with everything that you've said, except for the part about being seen as a baby maker.
I don't.
I didn't feel that at all. But it's just going to immediately contradict what I said earlier. I'm going to immediately contradict what I said earlier about the reading, and the thing that ran me out of it was just reading the dang book. And so I'm going to contradict what I said earlier about hiding something in a book that I didn't bother to read read it. I agree.
I agree, Jimmy read the whole thing, because that was when I realized, wait a second, either they're making stuff up that isn't in this book, or I have a different book. Yeah, and I'm gonna have to say I'm gonna have to just fall back on what you've been saying, Jimmy, just read the thing, familiarize yourself with it. The same thing with this ministry as it is with as it was with my religion, is I just had to actually sit down and read it instead of blindly accepting it.
Yeah, I'll tell you. I mean, I have a lot of stories that can relate to that, but I'm going to use a funny one.
You know.
I remember our pastor just berating the audience for watching Seinfeld. I guess he didn't like some of the plots in Seinfeld, which, yeah, I mean, they tested, they certainly tests at the times, didn't they. But then my parents went home and watched Sidefeld. They continue, I'm like, nobody gives a shit with this guy saying like this is not legitimate, and it just kind of just kind of cemented my my feelings. But you know, back back to the topic though, what you know,
how do we give these people credit? How do we give them a little bit of guidance uh in breaking out of this cycle? Because I think it's it's really fair to say that. Uh to Hellan's point, people, Uh, you know, they they're raised with this idea that everything's going to be panned out for them, and here they are with a child and now they want to build a family and keep having children. At some point you
have to break that cycle. So you know, to your point, uh, Tracy when you say, like how many minds must collapse, how many factories need to burn? And I'm just going over your notes before before people realize that this is not a recipe for balance, you know, can you expand on that? What do you what are you trying to get at?
So? Uh, what I'm what I'm trying to get at is the attraction of the free as is always brought up in political discussions, especially with the right or with the even further right, that the free market. Is this fantastic. If you just let a company do its thing and you don't regulate it and you don't give it any rules, then everything will work out magically and everything will be okay because if it'll find a balance. No, that won't happen.
We've seen that repeatedly not happen with slavery and with the triangle shirtcoat factory fires just and all of the minds that collapse due to underregulation or no regulation or people just lying about what they're doing in those minds. Regulation is needed because business owners have shown business owners, churches, insurance companies, whatever you want to say, they have shown repeatedly and repeatedly that they cannot be trusted to do
whatever they want. People have shown that they cannot be trusted to do whatever they want in entirety. Will you have a company here or there Arizona Costco that will make some good decisions and will do good things. Of course you will, but that won't be the majority. The majority of people who will go and start a business get to starting a business and then become successful by screwing others over. That's how you get money in a capitalist society anyway, is by screwing others over, and so
it's not going to balance itself. You can't just have everybody screwing everyone else over. There's got to be somebody at the top.
While somebody's getting screwed in more ways than one in this article, they're having babies, they're losing money. And you know, Helen on that note, you know, is this and I know that we are empathetic toward the people who are getting screwed over, But is this just a matter of the church not doing the right thing? Or is this a larger failure of our GOVERNMD, of our healthcare system. Who's really to blame for this?
It's it's kind of twofold.
And I do put a little bit of blame with the family. I'm not going to sit there and say they're completely hands clean of this, because when you become a pairing, you have to be responsible for that child and you need to be and even and I understand that they are closed off, and I wish that they had considered them maybe we might not get the financial help that we need. Like I just wish that thought had just flittered across the brain.
They didn't.
They didn't even have to think about like leaving the church or anything and just flitter across the brain. Maybe we will not get the help that we are going we.
Will get, you know, that'd be nice.
But either way, this is but this is an abuse of the system when we're living in a post capitalist society and insurance companies are screwing everybody and you are relying on charity, which shouldn't happen for healthcare. We should I mean relying on charity to take care of our health care. It should be a human right. And our healthcare system is fucked.
It's fucked up.
Like you, like you are relying on your employer to pay your insurance and they hold all the cards, and you have to tow the line because if you lose your job, you lose your insurance, you lose those benefits. That shouldn't you shouldn't be a slave to the almighty dollar for you to get healthcare coverage, you know, And that's what happens when you live in post capitalism. And so I do have a place in my heart for that empathy and understanding for these people, and I want
and I wish this didn't happen to them. And they are one of thousands and thousands of people that get screwed by these charities for cancer treatment, for getting a broken leg and not being able to pay those extra bills. You know, these people are supposed to come in and help people, but they do night claims just like any other insurance company, and they say they're a charity and they get their five oh one C three kickbacks and
now on and on it goes. And that's because the almighty dollar rules, Stevid.
What is the moral of this story here?
The moral of the story is, don't settle for anything that is faith based. Only settle for evidence. I think if your insurance is coming from anything that has the word faith in it, that should set up some flags for you and just set a higher standard for yourself.
Yeah, yeah, and that's important. You know, we have a responsibility to learn from our mistakes, for sure. So I hope this family and the families like them are realizing the way that they're being treated and seeking a way out of this cycle of abuse that they're clearly set up for at an early age. And really the victims of