Hey everybody, thanks for joining us on the nonprofits. Today's Friday, February fourteenth. Happy Valentine's Day, but not such a happy story. If you tuned in to our show on Wednesday two days ago, then you saw us discuss really horrific conditions concerning young children and how they are impacted by religion. We are going to move to Australia with yet another example of how young kids can become the unfortunate victims of religious extremism, and AJ is going to take it away.
So in Australia, fourteen members of an extremist Christian culte were found guilty of months laughter following the death of an eight year old girl named Elizabeth Strust. She had type one diabetes and her parents, guided by other cult members, including the leader, with held her insulin optin instead to pray for her healing. This led to her tragic debt.
After six days without essentral medical care, she died in January twenty twenty two, but the court's recent verdict held all fourteen individuals accountable for the roles in this preventable tragedy. This story is from The Friendly Atheist by Herman Metta on January twenty ninth, twenty twenty five.
Yeah, thank you for that. So sad to lose such an innocent kid, you know, not even having the decision to make her or excuse me, having the authority to make her own decisions about her own medical care, you know, relying on your parents who withhold and ultimately lead you to your death. You know, Rob, I'm not sure that I understand why it was only manslaughter. Can you talk a little bit about why was it just out plain murder? You know? How did we end up with a manslaughter verdict?
Yeah? So when I read in the article that the parents were charged with murder and in the end, all fourteen people were convicted of manslaughter, and in the verdicts it says charge with murder, convicted of manslaughter, I was like, lo, what how? Because another thing to say before that this had already happened. She was she was sent to the hospital and was I believe, I believe she was in a coma. But she was hospitalized and they had a scare with her diabetes prior to this, not even that much,
not that much before, so this wasn't new. So when I discovered that it was manslaughter, I went into the like four hundred and sixty seven sixty nine page document to try to find the verdicts, and I found it on page twenty one, so I just want to read it. So ultimately they were convicted of manslaughter because of deeply
held personal religious beliefs. He says, after consideration of the whole of the evidence admissible against mister Streus the Father, there remained a reasonable possibility that in the cloistered atmosphere of the church which enveloped mister Streus, and which only intensified once he made the decision to cease the administ stration of the insulin, he was so consumed by that particular belief in the healing power of Gods promoted by its members that he came to the full realization that
he never came to the full realization that Elizabeth would probably die, believing instead that God would not allow that to happen. So it was impossible for him to ever be charged with murder despite any education that came before, because it should have happened in the first place, like it should have happened even if the first time she went to the hospital didn't occur. But it makes no sense to me, and in fact, must be true that they went to the hospital, was told what would happen,
and then they didn't believe it. So therefore my beliefs affect the law about how severe that is. That's actual insanity. I'm very upset at this, mostly because when I first took my notes on this fucking thing, I was like, Oh, there must be some definition of manslaughter versus murder in Australia. That means that they couldn't have been charged. No, no, he just he just believed real hard and therefore it is not murder. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I mean,
they've been they've been through this before. I mean they should be held to a higher standard having already received care. And my question would be, what does this say about their God if in the first place, because we're talking about a story that took place a couple of years earlier, they had to bring her daughter to the hospital, their daughter to the hospital.
Anyway, if they thought God was so powerful, why did they have to bring her to the hospital to begin with? And then yes, at the hospital, they should have learned what was going to happen if this continued. And it did continue, and then they were let off the hook. And I think it just goes to show that for some reason, religion gets a special place and it really
damages people. It destroyed this young girl's short life, but it certainly destroyed the parents and Helen I want to kind of gears a little bit on that note, because you do a lot of work with recovering from religion and you come across people who have been badly damaged. How does this story resonate with you based on some of the people that you have worked with.
Well, it's just this story really like affects me, not only as an you know, an advocate, but just as a parent. But you I've heard stories that are of like nobody didn't die, but of not getting proper medical treatment, you know, believing and faith healing instead of getting like
mental health treatment. People believing that they had demons inside of them because they have like autism, or they have like some kind of medical condition that needs to be expelled from their body, rather than getting like medical treatment for these things. And this is what belief does to people. Because you can believe in a god, I don't fucking care. But when it's it gets to the extreme where you're
not giving people like proper medical treatment. That's when this has gone too far because like as Hamant pointed out our call, like one of the basic things you do as a parent is cheap your kid's fucking alive. And the fact that they knew they were told by menal like you need to give your child your insulin. This needs to happen, and they were so like, nope, God's going to heal her. And guess what, she died. And that's what happens because when people and it does real damage.
Because if let's just say she has survived and somehow, you know, so grew up in these extreme religious beliefs. As she got older, maybe she wouldn't and it wasn't as extreme as this where you know, she has hype one diabetes, maybe she has some kind of other disease where she's not going to get proper medical treatment, you know, until that other education and that other information becomes available.
And you also have to accept evidence. And that's the thing about like extreme belief and not being able to see the force from the trees and believing in the power of make believe, like believing the power of magic is just insanity.
And there's you know the fact that they knew enough already to go seek life saving medical treatment in the first place, should completely keep them on the hook for repeated abuse. In fact, if this were me, I would lose my mind. If my kid was sick, if there was nothing that I could do, I would do everything that I could do. And they didn't. They didn't, and they were found guilty and they had a slap on
the wrist. But aj, is it only the parents and the other family members that were guilty or is there a larger, a larger cause at I.
Think it might be the system as a whole. Obviously, the whole cult. It was like twenty something people in that cult. I'm not sure we could blame the medical professionals here, but somebody in the law making process messed up here. Rob mentioned this wasn't the first incident that happened. When she was about seven or eight, about five months or so before she died, she had fallen into a comma as well. Because it was exactly the same thing they prayed over her, denied her insulin, She went into
a comma, and she went in the hospital. She weighed twenty nine pounds at age seven. That's like the weight of a toddler, all right, and she spent a whole month in the hospital recovering from that. At that point, her dad was sentenced to six months, but I'm not sure what the reason was, but he did not serve any time, and the mom was sentenced to eighteen months, but she served only five. As soon as she got
out of prison, she was putt in parole. They did the same thing Elizabeth Night, only twenty three days after her mother was released from Joe right, So they did the whole thing again. They'd learned nothing.
Yeah, yeah, they didn't learn anything. And you know, Rob, I want to go back to legal definitions and responsibility and talk to you about how should the community or the people of Australia in general feel about what the legal system is saying is allowed. I would say that children, the legal system is signaling to people that their religion is more important than the safety of their children, and I would not feel comfortable in that system. I don't know your thoughts on that.
More specifically, what the legal system is saying, because in America, in most first word, where am I first world places that you know, your intention has a big part of the sentencing. So what this is saying is that what you believe will happen is more important than what does happen, and that's materially different from intention. Your belief is different from your intention because I'm not a lawyer. If I intend to kill someone in America, then that's murder because
that's my intention. Now, if I intend to do huge amounts of great bodily harm but like really just believe that God's gonna keep them alive, that would probably still be murdered because like I'm intending to do things that would result in death, whereas this is different. This is your belief structure said that, Ah, they won't die. So
that's the problem. It's like, yeah, it's going to affect the kids, It's going to affect literally everyone, because now a person's personal belief about what should happen due to magic Land has more import than what the rest of reality has told us. That's actual insanity. Yes, someone failed her in the legal system before she got there, and the judge failed here after yep, yep.
And I think the medical community might have failed her as well, you know, because because of the already documented treatment and lack of care. If you will, Helen, I was I want to talk to you about maybe the lack of education, the lack of medical understanding, or maybe even a failure of the medical system. You know, what can we say about those things and how they could have been used or not used to prevent this young girl's death.
I really wish.
I'm sorry that maybe Child and Family Services after the first incident was keeping a very very close eye on this family. I think that was a failure of the system, because there was because they knew, they knew that this is an extremely religious fan you know, they're all part of this weird ass cult and that believed in divine healing, which isn't a thing. And the child had been back to the hospital in the hospital because they weren't getting insulin and they got really sick, and just a short
time later, the child died. So that was a failure of the system.
Jump in, go ahead.
I'm so sorry. I just want to agree with you. Yes, it's worse than that, right, Their belief actually the relevant their their church. Doesn't matter. Child went to hospital because they were unwell, then was immediately hospitalized again for same thing, doesn't matter what their church says, CPS should go. This is a pattern.
Yeah, yeah, because because there's been other incidences of other like in the United States where people that were had extreme religious practices families. Then CPS got called because they're like, hey, their beliefs are now causing harm to an innocent child. There's been core cases for a blood transfuse is for Jovah witnesses for children or doctors hire lawyers and go to court being like, if we don't medically intervene, this child is going to die. So that is a failure of the system.
One.
Two I am sorry.
Sorry, Actually, actually there are three other states. When I was researching this case, there were three other cases, one in Oregone, one in California, and one in Texas where kids were type one diabetic. Children died because of the exact same thing, faith Kulen being refused to insually and diet and dying of That's.
The thing we like again, we always say, like your belief is, you know, you believe whatever you want, but like you swing your arms until you hit the tip of my nose and then we're going to have a fucking problem. And the thing is, though, is that the swinging of the arms caused children to die. That's the problem with like we were talking about with the back lader story, like when people have these extreme beliefs, children
get her. I'm sorry, Like, like, your your main job, your one of your main jobs as a parent is to keep your child alive. And how do you keep your childlife If a child needs some kind of medical treatment, you get your child the fucking medical treatment.
So I'm sorry.
I'm just very angry about.
The time is so fucked up.
So I just want to I just want I want to read this right now. I just want to see I just want to read what the judge said, is that as so they were talking about the husband and wife. As with her husband, the complete application of misistrusted part of the legal duty she owes her daughter constitute is such an egregious departure from the standard of care a reasonable member of the community would observe in the same circumstances as to amount to a crime against the state
that is deserving a punishment. Again, like her husband, when her conduct was viewed objectively, it must be seen as having involved grave moral guilt and disregard for human right. Now, do I think that this she should have prosecuted them for murder?
Yes, Bob, We're gonna let's jump over to Rob. He had an objection. No, that's okay, I got feelings.
It was just like, hey, like, but you want to swing and swing your arms until the tip of mare knows. But Helen, if I intervene in the swinging of your arms, then I have impeded some of your rights to harm someone else. Wouldn't that be wrong of me to stop you from being able to harm others? That would be unjust. So I want to take I want to.
I have a hot take. Uh you know, and not Maybe I'm not taking side. I'm not trying to sympathize with the parents, but I want to. I want to look at this from an even more strategic view, if you will, a larger a larger step back, and just just let's just look at how religion impacts people. First of all, it comes for the children first, It always does, right, The children are usually the biggest victims. But those that make it to adulthood lack the problem solving skills, the
logic to act like normal human beings. I mean, not only did they lose their daughter, they refused legal representation. Now got they only got the slap on the wrist, which I am dumbfounded by But I mean they believe that God would save their kid, and then they waltzed in the church on murder charges and decided God would protect them and so they didn't need a lawyer. I mean, this is insane. The things that religion makes people do, not only to their own loved ones but to themselves is asinine.
AJ go ahead, Yes, that's what blew my mind. Okay, Like they saw this child go through a whole month in the hospital recovering from the first incidents, right, and then she gets out of the hospital and mom gets out of jail, and they're like, oh, hey, you know what, let me try these second time because it didn't work the first time, so maybe you will work the second. Okay. I have type one diabetes too. I have my my glucosmeter and my installing pampan said it keeps me alive.
If I take this off, I will probably die within you know, a couple of days, probably less than that. Here's the thing. Insulin. Type one diabetics don't produce any insulin. Insulin is like a key to the cells. It opens the cells with the glucose kitchen and it gives you on the energy that your cells need to survive. When this process is broken, when you don't have insulin is
horrible on the body. Okay, like you're you're, you are going to suffer from extreme thirst, nausea, vomiting, abdomino pain, factive confusion, headache, muscle pains. This child went through that horrible, horrible suffering for six days at home and they didn't take her to the hospital. They just continues to pray. It's like the massive amount of mental gymnastics that must have come to there's just it's just so hard to believe that people can do that because of their religious beliefs.
Yeah, and on that note, you know, I'm gonna we're gonna wrap up the show. I'm going to open it up. If anybody else has anything they want to add, speak now or forever, hold your peace. Excellent discussion, guys, really heartbreaking, really heartbreaking, And thank you guys. I love the emotion. I love the heartfelt kind of relation to this girl
who will never know us. But you know, people should know that there are voices out there, people like us, speaking up and trying to make the world better for you and still giving you room to practice whatever religion you want. Just don't hit the tip of our nose,
that's all. And if you want to hear more stories about us fighting for your right to worship, but our right to exist without your worship, and keep tuning into the nonprofits, and don't forget to check us out Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and Saturdays at seven pm Central on YouTube