Thank you for joining us, folks.
Tonight is February tenth, Monday, and we have some breaking news here on the nonprofits. This justin we may have Goliath's actual height and a medical diagnosis for the giant.
Taking us through this story is Rob. He's on the scene, Rob.
Yeah.
Scientists have new archaeological surveys giving us evidence that may give a new and frankly more reasonable height for the biblical giant Goliath. Look, measuring things is really hard. I used to do woodworking, so I can't imagine what measuring things from a thousand years ago is like and trying to come up with the same measurement one thousand or thousands of years later. Ultimately, though, I have to ask,
does this even matter? This story is from The Daily Mail Online by William Hunter on January twenty six, twenty twenty five.
Well let's just start there, Rob, Does this matter?
No?
Oh? That was that was quick? Why not? Because?
Like?
Why?
Though?
So like in some ways I can if I were a person who believed deeply in the Bible, then especially if it were inerrant and perfect in every way, then like I don't need anything to tell me about this anyway.
But that's not a good reason to believe anything. But like Noah's arc, people say that they have found that on like the mountains and stuff like that, and you can find much more easy archaeological evidence for that sort of thing, like we have we found the burial grounds the tombs of various pharaohs through archaeological research, Like we can find those things, but those are more more significant discoveries as opposed to like, there was a dude who
was big and then he died somewhere. He may not have been like preserved or given a sacred burial site, So can we even find it in the first place, So, like it's gonna be hard to find, if it's even possible to find, And if we do find it, what are we gonna find out? He's big?
Like whatever? Well, yeah, you're right.
So I think the author of this article did present some reasons why this story was designed theoretically the way it was, if it was kind of a made up literary device, if you will. But before we move on to that, I do want to talk about the gigantism. The author calls it giantism. I think the correct term is gigantism. In any case, I want to ask Helen, what does the research on gigantism or the diagnosis do for the case of the Goliath if anything?
Well, I think what I found interest about this like the biblical story fine, like whatever, but I can understand, like with this particular thing about giganticism, that it existed, and we have mentions of giants in the Bible.
I'm sure that the ancient Israelites that didn't understand like you know, an overactor diroy that causes excessive growth, didn't understand that it causes a lot of other additional medical problems for being as big as the these people were. So the fact that this article kind of went into those issues I found very interesting, Like even how they measured.
Because again, as Rob said in his intro.
About going, how do we know what the what the process was, you know, twenty over two thousand years ago versus you know how I mean, like we have different
measuring systems now. So I thought that was really interesting, not so much like I like the you know, the faith should find, but I thought that also if you know, to these ancient Israelites, like just let's just say, okay that David killed Gli with a sling shot, and you know, you have this average height man, like let's say he's like five foot eight versus someone that might be, you know,
as like seven feet tall or whatever. That to an ancient Israelite that didn't understand, like how you know, this particular medical condition and merged with seem.
You know, extraordinary.
And even though we understand the medical condition, like this medical addition is very rare, so even to us that you know, when I see something that's like really, really fucking tall, you know, I'm kind of like wow.
So the author, the author alludes to the fact that back back in these times in the Middle East, the average sized person was about five to three, which is consistent with Egypt and other areas. So seeing somebody that's even like six foot five, which is still big by standards today, probably was even.
Bigger back then.
But there's a lot going on in this article where we're not just talking about we're not just talking about his height and his size, which I think by the standard account is like nine feet right, And everybody was scared shitless of Goliath.
He wasn't just out there one day.
There was like forty days straight that he was coming out every morning and terrorizing the Israelite to being Okay, who's going to come fight me? But I want to ask aj you know, given the conditions, So the author lays out some conditions consistent with gigantism that would have afflicted Goliath.
Does it make sense that Goliath would have been chosen to fight at all?
Well, here's the thing. Goliath was supposed to be a Philistine, which is like the sons of the Nephilins and the humans. The Nephelins were supposed to be these giants that came from heaven according to the Bible, and so the Philistines were their sons, their children, and they were supposed to
be very large. So according to the story, Goliath wasn't necessarily much bigger than all of his family or other people of the City of God where they lived, where they resided, but they were big to the people that did not live there. So, as Helene mentioned, when people have gigantism, it can be due to issues with the
pituitary grant. It can be a tumor, or it can be just like an overproduction of growth hormone, and these giants, because of that, because the growth hormone doesn't stop producing,
they can develop so they can develop. Their body can become so big that they can develop all these severe hope issues, like you know, it can affect their vision, it can affect their blood flow because humans are not meant to be that size, and we're talking about gigantism, we're talking about medical condition that exists even today, so these are fact. Another thing it can cause is their heart to pump blood so hard that it causes heart disease.
And most people with gigantism die like their twenties or thirties due to heart conditions. And in the case of Goliad, like you ask, would he have been chosen? Maybe maybe he's a little bit larger than his siblings or you know, other people in the city, so maybe that's why he
was chosen. But I found interesting that one of the descriptions of the Bible says that he came out to meet David with someone in front of him in a shield, like a shield barror, And it makes you wonder, like, did they know that he has some type of health issue?
Yeah, so that's a good segue because now we're starting to get into without any proof of what's happening, without a body, right, maybe we can come up with a motive.
You know why, why.
All of these details in the story, and we start picking them apart and trying to create a story when really, Rob, I think to your point when you say it doesn't matter right who cares or something along those lines, it's not important. I want to try and look at a different side of things. So let's forget about the characteristics of Goliath and let's talk about maybe the underlying story that we're not talking about. What are some of the literary devices at play?
Maybe?
What are some of the agendas that are being represented? What are your thoughts on some of the alternative theories that the author lays out.
So his giant gigantism, the stature of him, the size of him in the article, they say, it's probably a literary device, and I think that's just obviously true, or at least yeah, obviously true there. I don't know if you ever remember Shiloh the Reading Dog TV show, but they covered David and the Goliath in one of their episodes, and at the end of each episode they would always be like doul little bloopers, and in this one was like,
sound effects are really important for TV shows. Watch what happens when Goliath comes out stomping out, but there's no sound effects. So they show him and he comes out, there's no sound effects. It's like, oh, he doesn't like make the groundshake. So how a story is told very much informs how the story is received. It also very much informs the message of the story. So of course little old David has God's grace on his side, and he beats the biggest guy in town. That's the effect
of the story. So his size in many ways is not relevant except for he's big.
So you know, there are so many other characteristics though, or conditions in this region that I think need to be talked about as well. So the Israelites we see, unfortunately today the Jewish people and the descendants of the Canaanites in general still fighting over land.
Back then it was no different, they were fighting over land.
I think that, if I understand it correctly, the Canaanites were enemies with the Philistines, but actually were dominated by the Philistines earlier in their past right.
And then this battle takes place now.
The author points out that the measurement of Goliath is actually consistent with the walls the city of Gath, where Goliath was from right, So is there is there not another kind of metaphor happening where David beating Goliath is really the Israelites sacking the Philistines on their home territory and taking their their land. I mean, I feel like that's a more plausible argument given what we know about the Bible and just the way things are taken out
of context. I don't know, Helen, what's a more plausible argument or what is what is your take on these arguments being presented.
So, because we know that the Bible's writing a lot of metaphor, that's.
The realm that it exists in.
You know, there's a lot of conjecture that we can make when we're reading this text regardless are not of if Goliath was knifeing tall or you know, or was the same height as the fucking laws, Like, we can make that conjecture he might have, like if we can, like let's just say, okay that you know, David's five ' three ang lithe is seven feet tall. If he is that tall or even like six foot five, you know, that is such a.
High difference that it seems extraordinary.
And also if he's from an opposing city and you know, and we're they're kind of combining all these sort of like conjectures and ideas together. We can you know, the inference would be like, you know, through the metaphor that they're talking about, you know, I'm actually taking the walls down and invading the city. Rather than talking about a man or, they're talking about a literal man that came from the city and you know, combining the two together
because religion does that as well. So you know, but without actual evidence of you know, someone from this city that was nine feet tall, it is just conjecture.
You know.
It can be a metaphor, it could be a man or, it can be a little bit of both, but there's no way to actually test for it. So a lot and the article kind of alludes to that. So you know, I'm not like, I think it's interesting, Like I love learning about like you know, biblical pass like through like a historical and scientific lens, Like I love that shit. But as far as like the way the story is told, like I'm not putting all my eggs and eat either.
Bass.
It's kind of distribution.
Yeah, Rob's point.
You know, you probably don't get much from this. It's pretty insignificant, but you know, Aj, I thought that you had go ahead, Rob, go ahead.
I'm going to kick it to AJ. But I did mention you go ahead real quick.
That's that's why I said to me the biblical parts sound of interesting, because, like I said earlier, and I think Helen mentioned that, there's just they measured things in different ways. I'm going to put a pin in that new thing. Most people, for most of history are illiterate, and most people when they engage with a book has
been an autumn, even the people when could read. There's a reason why Shakespeare is in iambic pentameter because it's easier to memorize if it's structured, and that's how epic poems work as well, like the Iliod in the Odyssey.
So like I.
Actually I didn't think about like, oh, it's a metaphor. If he is the size of the city's wall and he has destroyed him, therefore he's destroyed the city wall. Like that's cute, but it's also just a really good memory tool of orally passing this tradition of do you see that wall he was that big?
Wow?
Yeah that's that's good.
Yeah, Yeah, that's a really good analysis.
Yeah, that's a really good analysis.
And yeah, I mean this is the time, this is the time before the Bible was really being written down.
You know, everything's in oral history.
Aj.
I know you have a point, but I want to ask you a question and then you just feel free to take it. So you brought up a good point leading up to this talking about David was asking the man standing near the side of the battle, what happens to the person that kills Goliath? And basically the response was, oh, they get all these rewards, and you kind of pointed
towards selfishness. So maybe there's something else going on that we haven't covered yet in this story, and go ahead, the floor is you will.
Yeah, No, that was exactly my point that I was that was about to cover, okay, like because I was thinking, like, uh, the story is supposed to be to lead to David becoming king and all of that. Like King David is like a main cue part of the Bible, right, so they want to make they have to make him look good. They have to make him look like the winner, like he beat up this gigantic, massive, you know, opponent, but they make him look like he was this selfless servant of God.
But what's here?
Or was he just selfish? Because David asks the men that are near him, and he's like, well, what is going to happen if you as you asked? Like, what is going to happen to whoever kills this philistine and removes him from Isuel? Like funny enough, he calls Goliath circumcis philistine. I don't know why he goes there, but he goes there. So then he asked several other people like what is the world going to be? What am I going to get?
You know?
If I beat him up?
Like I don't, I don't want not, I don't want to do this if I'm not gonna get anything. And apparently the price was getting worked from King Saul. He was not going to pay taxes, and he was going to get one of Saul's daughter's hands in marriage, so he was also.
Going to totally okay with that.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
He probably probably like, hey, just pick whichever you want, you know, like and then apparently know, how do you even knew.
The state of glass Penis Like that's what I want to know.
I don't want to know.
There's so much I'm sorry, but what I want to know is why David the shepherd came to bring bread into the village and automatically got an audience with the king, Like this happens more than once in the Bible, Like how many times do people bring bread into a city like meet even the mayor.
You know, this is just crazy, but go ahead, aj please.
Yeah.
Like his brothers were also calling him conceited and wicked him and they were like, you're just coming over here to watch the fight. Like it's a really, really weird story. It makes you also wonder why did King Saul believe David literally a child Like David goes and he's like, well, you know I can kill him because I killed the lion that attacked my father's sheep, and then I killed the bear doing the same, Like it was just it was just a claim.
Just to claim, and the loser becomes the subject of the other. So let me take this kid that I've never met that lives in the woods, that is a shepherd that showed up with a rock and a sling.
Yeah, I will bet my kingdom on this.
You know, I think this is probably just a way of of aggrandizing the Israelites.
Right, and it's legend, it's it's myth.
It's uh and making others look stupid, look weak, even if the gigantism diagnosis is correct and Goliath was actually like not only just massive, but couldn't see very well and was probably weak and had bad blood circulation.
I don't know, hey, man, I was gonna stay in modern America. We have Paul Bunyan and they have Goliath. Okay, it's like we got folk.
Tales Paul Bunyon was Yeah, that's true, but Paul Bunyan, but he gets I don't remember the story of Paul Bunyan.
I don't believe he was defeated by anybody, was he?
I meant all, he just planted all the trees across America.
Jimmy, that's how that worked.
For the For the Israelites, you know, it's like we may look weak, we like, we may look insignificant, but you know we are great and and this is how you know we are. Look at this great nation that collapsed. Do the same thing with the Egyptians in the Bible as well. You know, Abraham shows up to Egypt and they're like, hey, you want to meet the Pharaoh? Like yeah, yeah, because you're so great you could just go meet the Pharaoh. So I guess Helen, I want to turn back to you. Uh,
we cover a lot here, We covered a lot. You know, We've got medical diagnoses, we've got literary devices. Any of this is does any of this help us in any way? Or is this just kind of a fun conversation.
I well, I think this is just me for people that think the Bible's a errant, that this might be like it'sot experiment for you like just like, let's just because of the things that he brought up about history and about like you know what peopless perspectives of certain maleclinditions in the past might have been, that it might that inflating you know, things out of you know, making the ordinary shortinairy that I'm hoping, you know, the people that you know take the Bible as an aaron will
just give him a moment to think, because like to me, I'm like, Okay, that's cool, it's an interesting conversation that we're having right now. But I'm hoping that you know, for you know, the average person that is a believer, that it will just give them a moment to go hmmm, you know, and just maybe a little bit of skepticism will enter their brain.
Brain.
Well, we know what that conversation usually looks like. You know, you just question God's plan. Rob, I'll go to you, and then AJ will close out with you. I'd like to know, you know, what's the moral of the story here, What are we walking away with now?
I would honestly just treat it as a folkale, and I think that that is the best way to do it. In fact, to me, for fun fact, I think the most believable part of the story is the is that he did kill him with the sling because I don't know if you've ever seen expert slingers, but in bronze age technology, that stuff is like gnarly and wicked. It will destroy you, so like it doesn't matter how big you are. The dude got clocked in the head by a rock going almost mark one. Yeah, he died, okay.
But also another fun fact to what Rob just said, the fact that he got hit in the head. It makes sense if he had gigantism because the pituitary gland is like right here, like right behind in between your eyes, so he could have got hit there. And you know, yeah, it makes sense.
You know what the thing that makes sense to me.
The most I think is the fact that if there was a real battle, which archaeology seems to suggest just by digging up a bunch of arrowheads and bodies, I think. But you know, if there was a real battle and the Israelites won, they got lucky. They beat you know, a pretty formidable army, and they said, we gotta tell a tale about this, like as soon as possible. We got to push this out to everybody. And you know, on another fun note, David didn't only kill him with
the rock. He went and took Goliath's sword and then cut his head off and that was the fatal blow. So Goliath may very well still could have been alive. In any case, folks, thank you for joining us as we dissect one of.
The many weird and I don't know, messy.
Hard to understand stories of the inherent Word of God the Bible.
And if you