Welcome to the nonprofits for our third segment this week. Well, I'll just let Steven give us the details.
Thanks, Thanks Scott. I hope you're all sitting down for this one. A local Christian pastor says killing women will shut them up. So Pastor Joel Webbin of Covenant Bible Church in Texas, of all places, says that a Christian nation governed by the Bible would see the end of hashtag me too movement, his rationale being that publicly executing just a few of the allying women would see all
of the false accusations cease. This story is reported on in a few different places, including The Mary Sue by Rachel Alatowski on October twenty first, two thousand and twenty four.
All right, well let's get into it here, Steven. So whether or not we consider this punishment of pro and I think we are, we're all leaning in one particular direction, but the Bible might very well say otherwise. Okay, So what do you think of Joel Webbin? Not necessarily your personal opinion, but just your your opinion about this approach? What what do you what do you think of Joel Webbin looking to the Bible for moral guidance on this issue, like it's it's.
It's it's, it's it's mind blowing. It boggles my mind that someone can be so inured to any kind of critical thinking and empathy and just trying to understand a perspective other than their own entitled, empowered perspective, like like, just just just so that we have the fullest understanding of the concept that this sermon from his pulpit that he was preaching is his puppet, which is in the
dining hall of a restaurant that they rent. I guess his rationale being that that you know, in under if this were a Christian nation and he is a great nationalist, that the Bible would then be the law of the land. And therefore, if someone is found guilty of assaulting a woman, then he should be put to death. And under that paradigm, if someone is found guilty of falsely accusing someone, then they receive the same punishment that their accused e would
have received. And so in this case, a woman who was lying about these allegations would then receive that punishment. She would be the one put to death. And it just boggles my mind that he would say that from the pulpit that just killing a few of these women would stop stop this. I guess in his fantasy world that this is like a widespread problem and that women are the enemy and that they should be stopped for
spreading all of these lies. And I just I don't understand how anyone can be so inerd to common sense and just like actually hearing another person sharing their experience, and just how how, how how empowered, how entitled must you be to have your ears stuffed so hard that you can't possibly hear of saying?
Damien, do you think that? I mean, do you agree with what Stevens saying?
I mean, what's what's your take on what could be motivating this guy to say these hateful things.
Look, I think say Christian nationalism, and I think yeah, and Christian nationalism follows on from my time when I was a when I was a fundamentalist Christian, I think I was more familiar with the term dominionism, which they're both essentially the same thing. But yeah, my question, my I suppose my thing he is has the death penalty actually stopped a particular type of crime from happening? And we know, for example, in the US that the death
penalty is mandate mandate, but you know, is inappropriate? Is it a punishment for murder? For example, in various Asian countries, the death penalty is used for drug smuggling and trafficking, but that doesn't seem to have solved those problems. So
I'm not too sure. Aside from the promotion of religious dogma, I'm not too sure why Webin thinks that punishing killing a woman would stop false accusations when we know that for much more drastic things like murder and drug trafficking, that the death penalty hasn't stopped those.
Things because he doesn't want to stop the sexual assaults. He just wants to stop women from talking about it. That's that's his that's his in there.
Yeah, actually seems what's happening here.
I would actually argue as well that this is something that Marry Suit. In the Merry Sue article, if you look towards the bottom of it, they actually highlighted quite correctly that Webin doesn't seem to have called for the execution of actual rapists, and in the article actually made a few, actually made a few links to news reports of actual rapes that have resulted in either disfigurement or
the death of the person of the victim. And Webin seems to be fairly quiet about that, like he might only he will probably give some sort of lip service to oh, rape is bad. Yeah, those people are heinous. But to actually call for the death of women who make false allegations, it's like, Okay, that's that's us. That's using a hammer to turn off a light switch. Essentially.
Then the other problem that Webin has is that how prevalent are false rape accusations, And I was I would say hardly, Like, yes, they exist.
But hardly to the extent that it's being suggested here.
Exactly Weben in the replace that's a I think I think that's that's a part of it.
But I think it's more so you first, Kelly first, Sorry, you first.
That was all they wanted to say, mindset, we got to gyp this up women in their place, scaring.
But what I did want to point out, and this is something I did put in my show notes, was that the way the Mary Sue actually covered this article, I'm going to say, is actually fairly unbalanced. Like when this when the link came in in the show notes, I thought, well, hold on, what's why did he say that, what's his reasoning? Where is he coming from? And I did not get that from the Mary Sue. Now I understand the Mary Sue is, I suppose, very heavily to
the left of the political spectrum. So I actually had to do some Google searching to find, Okay, what did Joel Webbin actually say? What context did he say it, and what is his what's his motivation? Rather than just Joel Webbin is bad because he wants to kure women. Okay, cool, we know that, but let's give a bit more background and a bit more flavored to the article about why.
And so I found I found a link to a kron dot com, which seems to be an independent media your outlet, that actually did go into, you know, a bit more of his history and his motivations, and you know what what he was actually saying in paragraph form rather than you know, Christian nationalist bad.
Yeah, So what was the what was the difference?
Then?
It was? Was the take in the in the other article? Different?
Well to me is the Mary Sue trying to be the information or opinion?
Is interesting that to see us as when we were earlier this week we're talking about educating people to figure out good sources. This is one of the things we have to educate Americans don't understand what's news and what's opinion, because half of Americans don't know the freaking difference.
Yeah, and so sometimes two get mixed up. So I think, yeah, so when I read this article, now I know this. I know we're not talking about the Mary Sue, but I think it's a good, good segue anyway, you know, to discuss, like you know, when a media when a media organization puts out an article, you know, we have to differentiate what hold on? Is this just a polemic? Is this actually trying to say something that the reader doesn't already believe?
Is this you know?
Whereas if I read from the chron dot com and I've got the link in my in my show notes, you know, there's actually a lot more if you compare the two articles. One is trying to inflame you, one is trying to inform you.
So maybe it's some of that fear mongering on the left that we were talking about earlier this week.
I think so, because the real flavor I got from the Mary Soue piece was, you know, Christian national is bad. Well, I get that he's bad, but you know, give me a bit more, give me a bit more context, give me a bit more, you know, a bit more color. Don't just give me a black and white, give me something that right.
Well, I do.
I think I think it's very valuable to make sure that we have a an unbiased and comprehensive knowledge of the situation before we get too far into judgment. But let's you know, we we do. Let's not stray too far from the point here. We you know, there was video of him standing in the pulpit saying that we should that we should execute women, and you know they didn't really comment about anybody in the congregation saying anything or standing up and leaving. Kelly, what are your thoughts
on that? What would you do if you were in Webins congregation on the day that he said that in the pulpit.
I have more morals than mister Webbin has, so I definitely would have said up. I don't know if I would have actually walked out. I might have actually stood up and said something. So, but I want to point out, and this might piss everybody off, Joe Webbin is right. If you kill someone, whether they're a woman, or not, it does tend to shut them up. Okay, so apparently he isn't one hundred percent stupid. But if you need
a blueprint for stupid, this guy is it. That's all I'm saying, Ellie, I can I take a second out from the panel for a second. Mister Webbin, if you feel that I just mischaracterized you, please please contact me. I need the entertainment and I want you to know, though, that things can get better. I myself, and this is very true. I was a homeless drug addicted alcoholic suffering from PTSD and now I run my own business with
my son. So things can get better for you. You just have to apply yourself and that thing you know, your brain, you might as well start using it for something. Thanks everyone for letting me have it more.
You know right.
I feel like this is a Saturday Afternoon special and this is Kelly given his motivational speech.
Here.
Hang in there, Joel Webbin, you know you can turn things around.
Seven. I would like to come back to you for a second here. So, so he's talking.
He's talking about this kind of thing from his religious perspective, and I would imagine, although I didn't see his specific justification for saying it. Maybe there'll be some of that in the in the in the blowback here. But so we're talking, so we're talking about freedom of religion. On one hand, whether or not you think that his religion actually promotes the kind of ideas he was promoting. But
we're still talking about freedom of religion. But on the other hand, we have the safety of the community and of the public in general. How can we balance that? How can we balance this easy one for you, I'll lobbing you up a softball here. How do we balance religious freedom with person with public safety?
Well, like I think like public safety, like your you're relig what is it that your religious freedom.
Stops at the tip of my nose or something?
Right, You're right to swing your arm, that was it.
I'm just going to punch the air. And if you happen to get in the way, like, yeah, your religious liberties start and end with you and they don't extend beyond that. And anyone's safety is not secondary to your religious freedoms. It's while that people would would ever consider otherwise.
And in this fantasy land where you know where you know, white Christian men get to make all the rules in this fantasy land where where women and children are the property of men, Like, how can yeah, Like, in what way there's there is no room for that in our civilization. Like, if you want to be having your own private fantasies about that, that's your discretion, but the rest of civilization knows better than that, and we will we need to be able to fight to protect exactly that.
So you think there's a fundamental clash between between his right for religious freedom in this in this particular instance, and the need for public safety and for well and for it's more than just a matter of public safety, right, it's specifically on women and women's freedom and trust and feelings of safety in coming forward and reporting acts of sexual assault in that kind of thing. Yeah, so you think that there's a fundamental difference that they can't be balanced.
We have to have to lean one way or the other in this case. Is that what you're saying, Stephen.
Like, well, like, if we're saying that, you know, his religious freedoms means that he should be able to stone a woman that he found guilty of adultery, then yeah, we're going to curtail those freedoms. But like for him to believe for him to wish, for him to want, Yeah, you can cash that in at the bank if you like. But for yeah, like your your what you believe personally, Like,
nobody's going to stop him from believing something. Nobody's going to stop him from holding that belief, but as soon as that belief is going to have a negative impact. And that was that was such a huge piece of my deconversion, is realizing just how much disrespect I held for people who weren't a part of my my in circle, my in group, and for me being you know, a
good man and I pacifist. You know, I could do I could still, you know, I could, I could bear that burden for those people without getting violent about it. But it was still it was still yeah, I still that doesn't that didn't stop me from holding that that kernel of disrespect for anybody that was on the outside. And it was so liberating when I was able to release that and say, hey, those people that think differently than me aren't inferior to me, but they're actually equal to me.
So so what you're saying then, is that what you were The way you were talking about society also reflects kind of like a little microcosm of what's in your what was in your own mind. You know, you had your own personal clashes. You were religious, you saw this hateful uh speech and these hateful ideas, and it just there was that fundamental clash and you it just couldn't you know, it was not couldn't mesh right, And so that led to your deconversion. And that leads perfectly into
my next question for Damien. Will this type of thing lead to the undermining of the respect of religious organizations? And if that's the case, is that ultimately a good thing.
I think it will lead to the undermining of religious organizations, just in that it's one more example of a of what we would call an unhinged Christian nationalist pastor. You know, if you're looking for examples of you know, dumb things that passes have said, you know, I think you can put up, you know, a Wikipedia page of all the things that Joel Webbin has said. It's a highlight. And I think, yeah, it's like it's very hard to now look.
I actually think Joel Webbin should be out there saying these kind of things because it exposes, you know, what what he thinks. Because I think the more dangerous thing is let's say Joel Webbin was an underground church past that had been suppressed by by the government or by by other forces. And then you know, let's say he
was running a cult. And then only do you find out later on, once you're inside, once he and his group have his hooks into you, that you find out that he calls for the stoning of women who make spurious, spurious sexual assault claims. Then it's oh, shit, is too late to get out. But the fact he's upfront and he's able to say it and record it means we can see upfront with very little cost to us except for our time, that this guy is all full of
stupid ideas. So let's get on the front foot and actually discuss these stupid ideas so we can be the antidote to his stupid ideas.
Right, So shaning later on the situation, right, we want to expose it so that we can that way we can fix it.
And this this is what I'm saying before. But having the plurality of voices, you know, the answer to bad speech isn't cutting speech down, is having more speech. So we can evaluate and have these discussions and bring things out into the open, so that you know, as I say, sunlight is the best disinfectant.
I agree.
I agree completely, so Kelly, as we so as Demian just said, sunlight is the best disinfectant. If we expose this, we can talk about it. We can we can make caring, compassionate decisions, reasonable decisions about how to proceed, how to deal with these types of situations, how to deal with
these types of people that spread these hateful messages. Do you think, Kelly, do you think this is going to be something that we will that will become less common as we see these things, as we as we shake our fists, and people read about this in the newspaper and say that's a horrible thing. Will they still go to church the next Sunday? Or as Steven did, will some of them start realizing, wait a minute, we have there's a clash here. I'm going to stop going to
that church or stop going to church at all. Do you think this is a problem that's going to be around for a while longer or because I have to admit, it's stuck around a lot longer than I've expected. You know, this kind of thing that started popping up, you know, within the last five years, the last eight years or whatever, and so you know, I expected people to react much
more swiftly and much more severely. Do you think this is a long term problem or do you think this is something that will be self correcting, perhaps within our lifetime?
You know, Scott I said it earlier this week, America was founded by a bunch of crazy religious fanatics. So is this going to go away? No, it's never going to go away. Can we fight it? Yes? Should we fight it? Most definitely? Right? And I think that I think what we're going to see is that, and what we have seen throughout American history is this kind of stuff goes in waves, it goes in cycles, and we're just in a big cycle of it right now. You know what. I look at this as like one more
satanic panic that we're living through. Wait, the first one we got alcohol illegalized.
Wooh.
And then we had the second satanic a panic in the eighties, and now we're going through another one. And the first, the second one was about culture, right, Oh, we can't play D and D rock and roll music is bad. But this one that we're going through, this one is actually targeting people.
This is bad.
This is alcohol to games, and culture and now the actual people we're attacking with our religion, and so are we going to get rid of it forever? No, this cycle of it is really, really, really bad though. I think this is probably the worst Satanic panic we've lived through in the last one hundred years.
All Right, thanks, Kelly Steven, I'm going to give you the last word. So how I want to make sure that we bring it back around to the victim, to the real victims of what's happening here. So how does his stance highlight broader cultural challenges surrounding the accountability of men who have been accused of abuse versus the treatment of women who report it.
Well, yeah, like, I'm like, I am glad that at least four of us, you know, sis guys can be sitting here and like speaking up and holding these shitty values held by men to the fire, because this is Yeah, it's one thing for us to say that it's good for webin here to be to be saying these things out loud, so that you know, the the world can
hear him say these things. But most importantly, I hope that the people within his church are hearing him say these things, and that they're actually able to dig in and say, what do we actually think about this, and not just say, oh, well Pastor said it, so it
must be good. I know he I was reading the transcript of that part of his sermon and he actually doubled down and he recognized that I just made some people in the congregation here uncomfortable, and that's good because the truth should make you feel uncomfortable, and like getting himself really hyped up as a result of that. So he stands by this kind of narrow view, and we need to yeah, we need to be able to call it out for what it is and let people know
that there is an alternative to that. I think guys like this are beyond reaching. He has no motivation for changing his thoughts in this way, like he is at the top of the pyramid as white sis head Christian pastor. Like what on earth would possibly motive him to try to empathize with others. But I think that this is at least one place where atheists and like sane Christians can be in agreement and say no, this is bullshit.
And we in our in our personal sphere where we do have some flow, influence, some control, this is where we can say No, these ideas are garbage ideas, and we will not stand for them, and we will stand against them. And that's the most that we can do. Shitty people are going to believe shitty things. People who want to believe shitty things are going to walk around until they find someone who will tell them these shitty
things that they want to hear. We can't change that, but we can still add our voices to the din and try to make this place, the world a better, safer spot for the people who are disenfranchised and marginalized, like the wonderful women on our planet.
So maybe we could fill in the missing shitty you know, the people that are wanting to hear shitty things. Maybe we can fill their ears with things that are not so shitty.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, make it more for them to hear it. What's then, make it harder for them to hear that shitty message.
Exactly drown out you know, drown out the bad voices, drown out the bad stuff.