Welcome. Today, we're diving into a very common topic here on the nonprofits Christian hypocrisy. Specifically, today we're going to talk about the fall of Jerry Folwell Junior, followed by his triumphant return to Liberty University on homecoming week. It's one of those stories that make you question the institutions and enforce extreme moral codes, which often they fail to
follow themselves. Fallwell scandal isn't just about one man. It's about the hypocrisy that festers in places like Liberty University, where secrecy, repression, and power collide. We'll also look at how financial interests influenced by the university's responses. They tried to preserve their reputation and avoid alienating Fallwell's loyal following while they tried to grapple with the fabricated moral crisis that really is brought on by them setting absurd expectations.
This story is from Religious News by Karen Swallow prior or October October fourth, twenty twenty four. Now, Karen is going to go to you first, and I was wondering, what do you think that this sets about the standards of places like Liberty University.
Well, that's a really interesting question given that in this article it's noted that Fallwell Junior had mentioned that he didn't think he should be held to a higher standard than many of the other individuals in leadership who had been caught being involved in some sort of sex scandal or other misconduct and had then been quote unquote forgiven
or allowed back in. And I find that to be particularly interesting given the strict moral code of conduct that Liberty University has for its students, which includes prohibitions, very strict prohibitions against seemingly innocuous things that are regarded as sexual misconduct, including handholding, being gay, using pronouns that aren't consistent with the sex assigned at birth. These are strictly prohibited activities for students at this university that Fallwell has
self presided over and presumably enforced. And yet he doesn't want to be held to a higher standard, by which he means not being held accountable for actual sexual misconduct involving abuse of his power and that of his and his wife's position at the university. So what I'm really hearing is that it's not that he was being held to a higher standard, it's that he was being held to no standard at all apparently.
I think that we find that far too often in organizations like this, that they create, first, as you mentioned, an unrealistic expectation they set for everyone involved and act surprised when people don't live up to it. But in cases like this, oftentimes we see that the people who are supposedly upholding this standard to others and enforcing it with punitive damages to other people don't live up to
them themselves. So I don't think that that's something out of the ordinary, and unfortunately seems to be something that seems to be quite common. So AJ was about you, we see this restoration of powerful abusers. Why do you think congregations are more inclined to identify with the abuser rather than the victim. What what cultural or theological factors do you think go into this.
I think in this case, it just has a lot to do with the doctrines that they're taught in church. You know, it's all about Jesus forgiving you, and so you are meant to forgive everybody just like because Jesus says to forgive everyone, and that is exactly what has seemed to be happening in situations like with fowl. They put aside the victims, and they put them as not
even the victims themselves. They turn into the perpetrators, and the victims are harassed, and then the entire institutions expect their abusers to be forgiven.
I agree. I think that far too often what we see is is that we see this prodigal sign comes back at end of the fold. Let's congratulate and welcome him back, and let's pretend that whatever the ramfications, those don't go away. Just because you have the person come back, it doesn't fix the problem they created. And really, in a situation like this, it seems like that these two people were just, by their own admission, it seemed like
more of an act. Did you get that kind of feel care of that this was just an act on their part?
Oh? Absolutely. And this, of course all came about, this reinstatement after the settling of their lawsuit, which had to do with the university's ability to use the Fallwell name, that of Fallwell Senior. I don't think they were trying to use Junior's name and likeness quite as much, but these legal consequences and followed as soon as those were
handled and taken care of. All of a sudden, everything was fine, and now he's brought back, and it wasn't really that we're worried about his sexual misconduct or his
abuse of his power. And you know, that admission on his part basically that it was too much to expect that he should, you know, not behave in inappropriate ways sexually with students and others at the university is almost the same thing as admitting that this student honor code and all of these rules are impossibly strict, and their prohibitions against you know, almost any kind of sexual conduct, even against consenting adults, or even with consenting adults, and
that's an unrealistic standard. The one that they're enforcing against the students is an unrealistic standard. And yet the leadership of the university is allowed to go around and engage in any kind of behavior, apparently, and then as soon as all of the financial and legal issues in the background are buttoned up, all of a sudden, well, we don't mind, we have to forgive him. We couldn't possibly expect someone to abide by any of our rules, apparently.
Yeah, and apparently it wasn't just for Firewell himself. It seemed like some of the documents that the lawsuit showed that one of the arguments that they used in the defense for him to come back was that the fact that other high ranking university officials, including a former president and a former dean, had been welcome back on campus after they had some type of you know, misconduct like having an affair or other sexual scandals, and they argued
that firewell should not behold, as you said, to a higher moral standard than everybody else. So it was like, well, you know, they did it, so it's fine, right, like I should be able to come back to and you know that's what happened. The lasses were dropped and then they settled. Then he not only returned to the campus, but he did it during the homecoming week, which was like gave him like a hero's welcome back and full
of praise, and you know, it's just it. It came down to forgiveness and salvation for the abusers and then hush money for the victims so they will just sit down and shut up exactly, victims.
The victims are just an inconvenience to the story that they're trying to present. Because look, as you mentioned Aja coming back on homecoming, this isn't by accident. They're laying out a redemption story and we're all forgiven and everything's good. And of course it could have nothing to do with the fact that the university was doing very poorly before Folwell was involved and then all of a sudden he
made it a very profitable institution. I'm sure it had absolutely nothing about that, and all about the forgiveness of our near and dear Lord Jesus. Okay, maybe I don't think any of that. But Carab, did you have something to say You were talking before I interrupted.
Oh yeah, no, I mean I think I interrupted you. But you know, I don't want to be held to a higher standard or anything on the interrupting and the conversation turn taking. But I do think exactly as both of you have pointed out, this is just again another example where we're celebrating the abuser and the powerful leader who has engaged in misconduct while essentially punishing or hushing up anyone who had the temerity to point it out.
And it's always the other people involved in these things that are then the victims that are blamed or accused of instigating the wrongdoing. And you know, we never hear from them again, or about them being reinstated or having any sort of restitution. But here we are celebrating the homecoming of mister Folwell, returning again to be reinstated in a position to engage in this same behavior again, with him having essentially admitted that he thinks the standard of
conduct that they were holding him to was impossible. So what does that tell you about his future behavior?
You know, one thing I did find interesting is that both he and his wife essentially came out with you know, it was an all in act. You know, he said, now I had their last name, but you know, people expect me to be religious, but I'm really not that kind of guy. And that's fine. You know, he probably have a happier and healthier life if he didn't live
under an unrealistic expectation like that. But I think that that's something that religion tends to do, not just to its leadership, but even worse, because they get the buy and get the pass if they do something wrong. But it's all the other people that go and live into at Liberty University and spend their lives thinking this is what I have to be, and then go out and leave the university trying to be that person and really
setting themselves up for failure. Now, one thing I did notice is that I did read where one of the people stated it costs. Rachel Donald Hollanders said, it cost you something to side with the vulnerable. Why is it that siding with the victims of abuse and religion communities often come to such a high social or personal cost? And how can we encourage more people to take that stand? AJ wanted to throw that question to you, what do you think?
I truly don't understand this because you can see the harm that is being done to another human being, and you will think that naturally you will want to protect that person that is that is being victimized, right, But it seems that in all of these religious settings is the complete opposite. Like we said earlier, they're just victimizing
the abusers. And so I think that making sure that we speak up and that we will let these people's uh voice what's happened to them, advocating bringing awareness will probably and hopefully remove the stigma around the victims of abuse. And you know, bringing the abusers to light without making them the victim, is the most important step. I don't I don't really know exactly what we could do to
make that happen. But I know that that is definitely the key point, because you know, when victims can see that they're not being realified or humiliated, then they'll feel more comfortable sharing their stories knowing that they will get justice and not just be put aside and paid to shut up.
Yes, I think that that is one very important thing, is actually allowing people, making people realize that it's a
safe environment for them to do that. I think one of the problems though, is that institutionally, when you come to issues like churches and things like this, I think there's a vested interest in churches and church related organizations oftentimes to do quite the opposite, and not even necessarily so they can be an overt predator like these two people have been, but to be just predatorial in nature towards taking advantage of other people in times of needs.
In situations like that, it kind of it's part. It's almost like it's part of the program for these people to be in positions of authority, and almost by definition it means that people are going to take advantage of that authority.
What was your take care of Yes, I agree with that it's it's really tough to say what could be done to, you know, encourage more people to side with the victims in this because, as you both pointed out, the social costs are so high because the system almost
has that built into it. Because as soon as you start siding with the victims and saying like, oh, here we see this person has been harassed or coerced or taken advantage of, we're now suggesting and you know, I don't mean to paint with two broader brush here, but it's often young women and girls that are victims in
these instances, or children. We're now taking away this excuse that's so often used to vilify the victims, which is that they somehow encouraged this, or they invited this through their own sin or misconduct or lesciviousness, or whatever the
case may be. And as soon as we start siding with them and saying, no, this person was actually victimized, they were coerced, they were intimidated, they were forced, or whatever the case may be, all of a sudden, now we're placing more accountability on the people in positions of power, and nobody in a position of power wants to allow themselves to be placed at a greater risk or apparently held to a higher standard, or any standard at all.
So I think we're back to that situation again, where as long as the same people are in these positions of power, there's going to continue to be enormous pressure for everyone else in the congregation or the flock, or whatever the case may be, to not side with them.
It's interesting that you mentioned that victims are usually women and young girls, which is, I absolutely agree with that, But it seemed like the worlds had like no limit on who they were praying on. So if you need something to be disgusted by this Halloween, let me tell
you about his wife. Okay, so this story goes beyond just the pastor coming back, you know, after committing since because you know, obviously he was banned from the university because he was posting inappropriate, sexually charged comments, photos and videos of young female students, which is, you know what you pointed out about a woman being the main target. But he wasn't the only one that was banned from
the university. His wife, Becky was too because she was part of a separate sex scandal, and one of the most notable things about it was that she was having a sexual relationship with a young pool boy for several years. But this wasn't a secret to her husband. It's just like God, it seems like Farewell Junior like to watch because he will apparently the story goes, is that he will sit on the corner of the room and quietly
watch his wife have sex with the poor boy. So I do not want to shame people for, you know, their sexual taste of what they do as consent to adults,
because everybody's body autonomy that we always talk about. But it seemed like in this case, it was just a very naive young man and they were totally completely predatory towards him, and they lured him by promising business partnerships and real estate dealings and money, and both Farwell Junior and his wife used their position of power and authority to abuse this young man.
Yes, you know, I thought somethings that was very important and I completely agree is that. You know, I don't care if missus Folwell and the poor boy had a relationship. I don't care what Fallwell Junior's relationship in that situation was. Either. It is completely not a concern to me until until you start telling other people what they should do, what they can and cannot do, kicking people out of school
for doing far less. You know, when you start thinking about what they did and compare it to what they have cost people. I mean, and in the long run, they might be better off without a career that you get from Liberty University. But still that's not my choice to make. But someone made that choice for them, who wasn't me, who supposedly was their mentor and their guide, and someone who was in their leadership to make them that supposed better person that you know, the the illusion
the facade is supposed to create. I mean, we know none of its reality. You know, we've talked about people, other people in the organization, and then their their misdeeds. They're the misdeeds of the Fallwells. There's misdeeds that go around for everybody. Okay, great, but once again that goes back to if you set an unrealistic expectation in the
first place. This is what happens when you do that, when you don't talk about things and you're not open about people being well, real people, and that's a whole lot of things. It's not something you could put inside of a box and caroen wanted to know, Is there anything anything else that's struck you about this story you wanted to discuss?
You know, really, I think just one of the main things that I found fascinating about this story was the way that the sort of the breadth and the range of the misconduct that took place and that was ultimately forgiven.
It ranged from not only things that we would all identify as predatory or coercive or taking advantage of naive people are those who you have an undue amount of influence over, but also it included things that perhaps the folks at Liberty University regard as immoral, but secular people might not, such as the you know, various kinds of sexual relationships that Fallwell and Becky were having, and you know,
different kinds of proclivity and tastes. And yet no matter what the behavior was, you know, minor to actually predatory, I never saw any distinction really made between any of those in any of the discussion of these incidents coming from the university, And that lack of distinction between things that are actively predatory and harming victims and abusing people versus things that someone has read the Bible and decided they have a distaste for no distinction made whatsoever, which really,
to me just kind of speaks to this complete and utter lack of a sense of accountability to other human beings that's coming out of this attitude towards the behavior that's being tolerated and allowed in leadership. And I just found that rather.
Galling, indeed a j anything you want to add, you know, I think that here we have to focus on what the institution are doing at large, right they need to stop this whole Jesus forgives you, and so do we mentality. I'm not a guys forgiveness because I think that abusers are often in need of help as well. To hear what about trauma they you know, may come with that
led them to that behavior. And so the issue is that churches and institutions just cleanse the sins with religion and do absolutely nothing to solve the root cause of the problem. And you know, this guy needed therapy, not Jesus.
You know, I have to say that I completely agree with that. And now that I think is one of the easy things that we can all clearly recognize in this situation is that as we've all hit on, these people need help. I don't think they're going to find it at an altar. I don't think they're going to find it praying to, you know, to Jesus or any other god. But I think that this mentality and this live and live all is forgiven mentality just allows this cycle to continue rather than actually address it.