Today, we're tackling a troubling, yet all too familiar story coming out of one of Texas's large megachurches, Gateway Church. In just two months, four of its leaders, including executive Pastor Ken Taul Glasgow, have been forced to step down over various moral failings. This shocking involves the church's former senior pastor, Robert Morris, who's resigned after admitting to a relationship with a twelve year old girl when he was twenty one. As more allegation surface, we're left questioning the
culture of secrecy and power within these institutions. How does a community meant to be built on trust and moral integrity repeatedly fail to protect its most vulnerable members. Let's dig into this and examine the implications from a skeptical humanist perspective. This story is from USA Today by Jonathan Lymehouse from August twenty second, twenty four. So I'm coming to you first, mister Dicky. Hello, how are you doing.
I'm doing great, Cynthia, Yeah, despite the story, but right right, But I'm curious if you could just kind of expand on what does the pattern of leadership failures at Gateway Church suggest about the effectiveness of religious institutions and holding their leader's account.
Well, well, first of all, we hear stories like this all the time, and it's really and of course it's one of I think it's one of the staple types of arguments that we cover here on the nonprofits is the failure of religious leaders. And I think what makes it so interesting is not so much that there's human beings that are failing. It's that there are human beings that are supposed to be held up to the higher standard.
They're supposed to be. The expectations are higher, the responsibility is higher, the level of trust certainly is higher than you would just you know, somebody walking in off the street or even other other professions that are normally trusted, like teachers and that kind of thing. You know, people
uh can will trust their religious leaders. And I think it has to something to do with with the halo effect, uh ironically that and that is that when there's people in positions of authority or people that are particularly skilled at one in one particular area, very often others onlookers will uh that that respect and that admiration and that deference will kind of spill over into other areas and so here we have people that are religious leaders, they're
church leaders. They're you know, they're the ones performing the marriages, they're the ones leading the Sunday morning services, they're the ones that are taking attendance in the in the Sunday schools, they're they're the ones that are visiting the hospitals and so forth. And so there's this high level of trust there. And obviously there, you know, somebody is being neglectful here. There's and I think it primarily falls on the shoulders
of the parishioners. I think that if they I think some skeptical eyes need to be kind of thrown into the mix here. To answer your question, they do a crappy job of policing this kind of thing, of living up to this already inflated standard. It's it's really very frustrating and for me personally, it's one of the most annoying things about religion that there is is that is that unearned trust?
Yeah, I hear that. So let's go ahead and just like build upon that, Jonathan, In what ways does the concept of restoration and healing? No, actually, no, let's not do that. Let's do this. How the church's response to moral failings reflect broader societal issues relating to power, secrecy and the protection of vulnerable individual.
Yeah, that's that's something that bothers me is these people, particularly this church, they made a lot out of it that we you know, we care and love about these pastors and you know, and we want to help them and pray for them and all that. What about the victim, you know, it's like they fail at even attempting to listen to the victim. She spent thirty five years complaining about this to the church leadership, and they did nothing
about it. When it finally she brought it out in public, that's when they decided that they had to do something about it. So it's obvious they don't care about this at all. So that's one of the things. But they can get away with that because they're a religious organization and they're supposed to be moral. And again, like he said, that's but they leave the victims of this in the dust, including their own parishioners. They're not doing any services by
hiding people who were committing crimes. Like Richard Morris is a pedophile, you know, and he said that he has stopped doing it after abusing a young girl twelve to seventeen years old for five years, please you know. And two of the people who were recently dismissed were his son James and his wife. Now, I'm not going to speculate on particularly why they just said moral failings. That could be they knew about it and didn't do anything about it. That kind of gives me the idea that
the not the current guy. He could have had his own issues. But they also asked three members of the board of elders their board of directors or board of trustees depending on what kind of church belonged to that we're serving at the same time of the abuse. And they say they're not implicated in any wrongdoing yet. Well, they said any wrongdoing and that would be yet because the investigation by this supposedly independent law firm, which I'm sure I have not had a chance to see what
that law firms ties to the church are. But yeah, this is where this is coming from. That law firm was the one who asked James Morris and his wife to take a leave of absence so that they could do the investigation without them there. So this is just really disgustingly weird. But the thing that bothers me the most is that in the broader society we have a means of dealing with pedophiles and people who are enablers
of pedophiles. It's called the law. Churches have always thought that they were above the law, and so they hide these things so that they and they shame their parishioners who have been abused, and they try and keep them from going public so they don't have to deal with the police or the FBI. And that's a societal issue because we need to drop the pretense and realize that ministers, youth pastors, and pastors and priests are all human beings.
They have the same problems as the general population, and they need to be held accountable for their actions. They're not going to do anything to these people. That is what should be done to them. Morris himself, the father should be in jail. Yeah, I'm sorry. He should be in jail. He should be on a sexual predator's list for the rest of his life. He should be in
jail for at least twenty to forty years. I'm saying now sixty to eighty because and I think that the people in that church who knew about it should be in jail too, for at least as long as they didn't listen to the victim in this. That would be about thirty five years and might be considered a little harsh. But for me, you let her suffer all those years and you didn't give her any solace whatsoever. You didn't pay for her therapy, none of that, And they should have.
You know, it was their person who was in power and had power over these people, and power dynamics are the best way for pedophiles and abuse of people to be because they get to do that largely without impunity, with impunity and without the victims feeling like they can come forward and not be demonized for attacking the wonderful whatever it is. So that's my words on that.
Yeah, you know, I have to always reiterate when you have behaviors like the crimes of you know, forced sexual act, abuse, violence, because all of those things, all of those acts really
are acts of violence. It's not about attraction. It's always about power and to be able to control another individual or a group of individuals with that power and forcing them into silence, saying this is our secret, this is between me and you, and kind of like what color Purple said, you better not tell nobody, but god, it'll
kill your mama. But the thing is, but the thing is is that the person that is, like, you know, experiencing the abuse is listening into them saying things like that, and they're not you know, they're not going to open their mouth because of course they are concerned about, you know, the person that's doing the abuse and what other things
that they might do if they tell. And then to your point, Jonathan, yeah, to tell, right, and so their mom, right, exactly, their mom, their dad, you know, whomever you know happens to be a parental figure in their life. And and it's very it's and it's very disgusting in my eyes that you know, this is a culture, a pervasive culture that actually has happened and continues to happen in church no matter what denomination that it happens to be in.
And instead of the people who are being victimized, they're not getting help because they because we as a society think that the church is able to police itself, and obviously that's not the case. So Cindy, I'm coming to you because you know, one of the things that you mentioned is how it struck you how people that were being interviewed in the article and pointed out how child abusers behaved since the abuse. Can you expand on your thoughts a bit of concerning.
That, Yeah, yeah, I'm totally we with you guys regarding the idea that this halo effect that exists, the idea that because they are parishioners or whatever or leader of their churches, they are somehow better than the rest of us. They did nothing, and no religion did anything in the
last fifteen hundred years to deserve this difference. And I think that's something we need to voice very strongly because this idea that they're better somehow, it still exists today, and after the thousands of cases and the hundreds of cases we've covered here on the nonprofits, this idea is
still very much pregnant. So, yeah, this this reaction that we saw in the in the article from from all the people that were interviewed, it was yeah, but you know, he did a bad thing, but now he's he's he's a good person. You know, he's helping the church, he's guiding hers, blah blah blah. And that stems from the idea that we see a lot in Christianity actually that each wrong has to be some kind of balanced with a certain amount of good actions. We see that very
very often in movies and TV shows, American ones. But
that's not how it works. You need to pay for your crimes through the human justice system and not pretend that the supposedly good you did so far somehow unifies the the harm you cause, because, as you pointed out, the victim here, she never got any I don't like the word compensation because we think about money, but any recognition that she is a victim, and every everything that that it says that, yeah, he behaves since that it sounds like they're they they're just saying, yeah, he did
a bad thing.
Yeah, you know.
It's almost as if they are saying, yeah, the devil made him and him do it, but he's actually a good person, you know. So yeah, this this idea that this act is not deserving of well, it's not an act because it lasts four five years far member correctly.
So this, this horrendous situation shouldn't exist, and it shouldn't be, you know, pushed over by some supposedly good actions that the perpetrator did, because what what also infuriates me is that when you look at the political climate in the US right now, one of the the rights may not is that the left is uh is full of rapists
and all that kind of stuff. And what we see is that actually the rapists are on their side uh and and they are almighty and and uh and and and are pure and in reality, they're just the worst people, and they try to hide it, and they try to avoid any consequence. And that just kills me.
Yeah, definitely, Yeah, I hear you.
I hear you when you say that. And and I know that we kind of touched a bit about, you know, the the restoration healing versus actually holding these people who commit these act to justice and accountability and not necessarily seeing that after so many cases, as you pointed out, Cindy, that we've covered just on the nonprofits alone, about constantly hearing about church leaders who happen to engage in moral
failings and have to step down. But they but the only thing that is there that they're actually receiving is just a you know, like a oh, you got caught, so you need to go ahead and get in the corner and go on time out. And and that's unfortunate and and I think that we should really talk more
about what where where do we go from here? Because like we we are constantly talking about how there is no oversight, there is no checks and balances, there is even though you may have a governing body over these church leaders, they're still going to only be more inclined to protect the church and the church's name rather than actually protecting the constituents that have been abused or the
parishioners that have been abused. So how can we critically assess because I do recognize that we may have a little bit of a bias here, guys, I don't know if you know is that, but you know, how can we critically assess the large in large the role of religious organizations in addressing or failing to address the allegations of abuse and misconduct amongst their leadership. Jonathan, I would like for you to start, and then a Scott and then and then Cindy's.
Okay, Well, one thing that I just want to say is when I was in the Navy, we had a saying one off, shit wipes out a world of attaboys, So you know that was how they worked. I think that one way we can start getting ahead of this is to I think, get the churches to post who they can call if they're having problems like that, and let the law enforcement take the actions they need to take. And they should be looking at not just the offender,
but the enablers as co conspirators in this crime. And you know, they are either post facto or or during the crime, they are enabling it and they're not reporting it, so there should be a penalty for them too. And if that wipes out your entire church leadership, maybe your church doesn't need to exist, you know. So you know that, and I'm totally totally aware of my biases in this situation.
I have many of them, but and I won't go into them, but you know, so for that, I would just say, let's let the laws we have and maybe change a few to make sure that churches cannot hide this kind of behavior anymore.
I guess it's Scott, Yeah, sure, Yeah, Cynthia, you mentioned a couple of words. They're justice and accountability. I think those are key, and Cindy and Jonathan we're both talking about legal issues as well. The thing is, I mean, yeah, we're biased. You know, that's probably one of the reasons
we chose this story. But what we're asking, we're what we're saying is needed here, and I mean, if you listen to what we're saying, we're just asking for the same justice and accountability that everybody is expected to take a part in. And there was a quote in the article that just really really pissed me off. The quote goes in June, Gateway senior pastor Robert Morris resigned after admitting to having quote inappropriate sexual behavior with a young
lady thirty five years ago. The young lady in question had been twelve, and Morris was twenty one and married. Okay, so let's get our terms straight here. We're not talking I mean, yeah, technically inappropriate sexual behavior with a young lady is technically true, but that's not the whole truth. Okay, he raped a child. Okay, this is statutory rape, and
that's what we're talking about here. And so the accountability that we're asking for is the same accountability that any organization would would be expected to be a party two and the same justice is going to be the same that we would expect of anybody, whether they be a minister, a teacher, or whatever. Okay, And that's all we're asking for if they commit a crime, they hurt a child, they deserve to, you know, to be judged by a
jury of their peers, just like anybody else. And that's really, that's all we're asking for, is just come on, people, Let's just hold up the same the same standards that everybody has to live with. That's what we're saying.
Come on, guys, come on exactly, Yeah, exactly, Cindy, what say you?
Yeah. On top of everything we were talking about right now, I just like to point out that when you go through something like that, you cannot heal until you are really recognized as a victim. So it means that on top of what she went through, which is already horrible, she had to fight for like thirty years to be acknowledged as a victim, and so all these times she would not heal. And so on top of the harm that she went through during those five years, they added
insult to injury during those thirty years. And I think we need to take that into account. Regarding the legal aspect of this, I think it starts with political will. I seem to remember that two or three years ago we did a show on their own profits about the situation like this in France because someone said that God's
law was above men'slow some things like that. And the way you start fighting this is by removing the exemption for confession because in many countries and probably in many states in the US, confession has the same level of secrecy then you know, doctor patient secrecy or lawyer client and that shouldn't exist because it comes from the idea that the pastor or the father or whatever has some
more authority, and they don't. They don't. So remove this authority by saying that if you are victim or if you know about something, you have zero legal protection if you don't say it. And starting with this would change slowly. Mentalities in these regards, they're compulsive.
Cindy, I'm so glad you brought up the victims perspective there. I mean, that was something that it's easy to point fingers at the person doing the crime, but you know, we need to remember that, you know, there's victim there and they need to be addressed, and their needs need to be addressed, and they're they're long term, decades long pain has to be at the very least addressed so that they can Yeah, like you were saying you like, so that they can be in the healing process.
Yeah, it's always to recognize, recognize those things for the person who has been victimized to get the necessary healing and also recognition and to be honest with you guys, I don't necessarily mind compensation because but I understand it's
not just about money. But you know, when you're thinking about lifetime of therapy, when you're thinking about you know, even the possibility of that person being interrupted in their development and not being able to do things like hold a job, purchase a home, even be able to have their own families because they are so traumatized by what has happened to them. I don't necessarily think that, you know, taking care of them in that particular aspect is not a bad idea, but it's.
A small thing, but it's better than.
Nothing exactly exactly. It is a start.
Well.
Churches are supposed to be well. They're supposed to be places that are serving as a moral guide, but too often lack the necessary oversight to prevent abuses of power. Expressing regret after the fact isn't enough. There needs to be immediate and transparent consequences to protect the vulnerable to possibly restore trust. The failure to address these issues promptly and effectively damages not only the congregation but the wider
faith community. It's pastime for churches to implement real checks and balances and invite independent oversight to ensure leaders are held to the highest standards they supposedly preach. Unfortunately, integrity of the faith has faltered and goals post moved to focus on drag Time, Story Hour instead of their own moral failings of abuse and scandal being on display.