Business development is the fun start in the company. It's, the strategic creative, you know, it has so many elements that are unique. And in this era where funding is a real challenge to companies, you can really shine and move the company to wonderful places with smart, patient, professional business development. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the NFX podcast. And today, we're going to talk about business development in bio, especially bio platform.
So there are 2 parts to building a bio platform. You have to focus on the science, then you have to focus on the business side, when to partner, when to develop your own product, how to even pick a Cbo. It's a lot to handle. That's why we're brought on guests today. Peter Neil, Beller, Gubham, Cohen. The best way to start is maybe a quick introduction. I know both of you for many years, but EIL, maybe you can start. Like, how do you get to this beautiful, you know, space of Batek?
So, again, thank you, Marie, for having me. And I think this is a really an awesome topic and so important for what's happening in the industry now. Right? So my name is, yeah, El Greenbaum Morgan. As you said, I'm a venture partner at Aimmune Fund, where it's the largest fund. And as managing, just over $1,300,000,000. I joined just a few weeks ago, the fund, but before that, I was in business development for many years.
I was the general manager in my last role of Medison Ventures, so leading a lot of licensing, distribution, and investments, mainly in platform companies. By training. I'm a DMD Pete and a postdoc in genetics and, really happy to be here with you and Peter. Yeah. Thank you. This is Peter. So thank you so much I mean, I'm very nice to be here with you. So my background is slightly different. I'm not adventure, but I'm starting a new company right now.
So it will be a platform company in the gene editing space. New technology developed at another company. So it's officially a spinout, and hopefully that you will hear more about this next year. And previously, I was chief business Morgan head of therapeutic strategy at Mammoth Biosciences, Jennifer Dautner, Pete editing company, so also in a very similar sense, having platform and then expanding into building a pipeline, but also partnering a lot.
And before that, I had co started Casibia, which was the joint venture between Bayer and Christmas therapeutics focused on Cas9, but again, having access to the platform and now translating this into assets and potentially partnering as well in the future. And I came out of Bayer, so that's why I was involved in starting the company. And there, I had been in many roles.
I'm, chemist by training, so started medicine chemistry lab, but then moved on towards other functions, business development and licensing for a very long time. But I also thought it's very important for business development to understand whole process of running a drug from not only discovery through, I mean, in the end, treating patients, right, so on the market. And that why I decided to go into other functions as Beller.
So spend 2 years in operations, run the portfolio meetings for the company, but got a lot of insights into pharmacology as Beller, and then also moved on 2 a half years into commercial. So really on the strategic marketing Flint, how to build pipeline, but then also launching a product, market research, and then even looking at how much money is it making. Right? I mean, that's also important after all companies to survive.
And so I think very important to have this view on both sides have worked in big pharma, but also in small companies. And so it's very interesting. Right? I mean, you know how both sides work, and it's changing over time, but still, I mean, you have some insights, right, on which can be very helpful. So a pleasure to be here, and I'm looking forward to the discussion here. Great. So, look, at NFX, the bio, we like to invest in bioplatform. We actually only invest in platform companies.
We will not invest in 1 small molecule Morgan education. We like white platforms. Where, you know, you can create many different products. And that also opened the door for many different creative ways to collaborate and do business development. The question is how early should you bring a business development person on board? Yeah. What do you think? I think you should bring a great business development to Cbo or a Pete BD person when you're ready to actively pursue partnerships.
So Just when you start planning these partnerships and you're really ready for that, that's the time. Partnerships, licensing deals, or other biz dev opportunities, and this person eventually will be responsible for identifying these, deals for evaluating the potential business opportunities. And then they should also be responsible for negotiating and executing in the early stage. It's it's an all around player that does all of that.
And then that person needs to also manage these relationships with external partners and engage internally. So it really depends if you have a really strong CEO, then a talented VP Beller at an early stage company can support in the shadows.
I think, like, what you try to do in NFX if you're an early stage platform company, you really need a strong VC support that because let's say if you're not with Pete 20 years of connections and you're starting the business development, it takes time to build these trusting relationships. And that time can be sort of shadowed or bridged by a strong VC, like what we have, the alpha team and a moon. Yeah. I think it's a very good point actually. So I think you should ask yourself the question.
Right? I mean, what expertise do you need in addition to what the leadership team already has, right? I mean, there's definitely a whole mix people, right, that come into a new company. So if you have, like, less experience, co founders, right, in the leadership team, you will need this network for example to brought in, right? I mean, definitely, I mean, because you don't have it yet, right? It's natural. I mean, you haven't been in the space. Same for negotiations and so on. Right?
If you've never done it, I mean, you need somebody who has done it before. Right? Like, in my case, when I start a company, I might not need a Cbo as early as, you know, a company where it's a scientist starting company only. Right? I mean, so I can cover a lot here, and it's more like a supportive function, right? So that may be more asked for a VP of business development.
Instead of a Cbo. On the other hand, I think it also depends on how many deals you want to do, right, and then what's in addition in it for this position. Right? I mean, think about it when you would write the job description Right? I mean, what you ask this person to do, right? Because now with, like, the title inflation, we very often mix up Cbo with head of BD. Right? I mean, so business development is really, for me, it's more the licensing part. Right?
The Cbo is in addition also corporate strategy right, a licensing strategy and maybe even pipeline strategy and so on, right, which can be different from company to company. It could be that the COO Omri CFO, whoever, right? I mean, others cover this, but that's for me a real Cbo writer, which is really this overarching role if you need that earlier, right, I mean, then you might hire a Cbo. If you really just need to do some deals and it's like a platform Beller deal is very similar.
You might be better with just a VP of BD, right, because you also need to keep your people happy, right, in the future. And if it's not enough to do, if the not filling and you're not able to bring in your expertise, then you're not happy. Right? And that's also not good. That's a great point. So, you know, a lot of CEOs ask me how to find how do I know that have the right, BT guy or CB or how to identify the difference between the good and the great one.
And my usual, answer, good this development will fill the funnel. And get the meeting, a great business person will Pete to be able to close the deal. So how do you evaluate a BD people, being one of them? I think it's all the mindset Exactly. Like you said, it's all the mindset of that person. So a really successful let's call it CBO, but I completely agree with Peter that it could be either or.
Has to be a really good team player, a really good team player that knows how to work with the business people and the science people and the operational people and sort of know how to integrate all these functions into a deal because, great deal is a deal where both companies get the most benefit from it. Right? Both you and the company you've partnered with. So it's really a team sports. And it's funny that I think, Peter, you'll agree.
Many of the people we meet in the business development industry used to be in the sports in competitive sports. So, they have to have really good strategic thinking. Even if they're a CDO or business development, they have to have perfect communication skills. They're always facing out, but always facing in. They have to work with internal stakeholders with external stakeholders. They work with lawyers. They work with science people.
So they have to be at least bilingual, business, and science, but also really strong people skills. And maybe the last thing that's very hard to evaluate when you're looking for a person but is super important is negotiation skills, but because that's the difference from good to great, a person that wants to get the deal done and understand that the most important thing is you want a win win situation for the deal. So something really important is great negotiation skills and agility.
And if he's a Cbo and he's a real part of the leadership team, then he should be a true leader. VP Bizdev is one position and a Cbo is a part of a leadership team and should set a leadership example. As a person as well. Yeah. I mean, very well. So I think the value of the deals, right, I mean, that's the very important part. Right? I mean, so it's not only the financial terms. Right?
I mean, sometimes you get these deal sheets, right, and people break about, like, the $5,000,000,000 Beller, whatever, right, them, we all know these are bio bucks, right, which might never come into fruition. But it's more about kind of strategy behind a deal. Right? I mean, so when were they done, right, how were they done, where they help for the company. Right? I mean, or both companies, as you said, are actually Morgan. Right?
I mean, so did you choose the right partner as I mean, all these things, right, come together, which makes a great business development person, right, instead of just getting a deal done. I mean, as this is saying, like, I mean, many people can sell the pope a double bet, right, but that's not the good, right? I mean, because there's need it. Right? I mean, it's also about what comes out of this, right? I mean, so you need the whole thing comes together.
The many components of this development wise. And I think trust is also one very important thing, right? For a business development person going out, I mean, I want to make sure that we're not overprom thing. Right? I mean, so it's really selling the technology or the program that you have, right, and it needs to survive. Right? I mean, because a deal not done. It's not as bad as a terminated deal. Right?
I think that's very important, especially for smaller companies, right, and we see it right now when when some clinical trials fail then the companies go down immediately completely, right? And so rather don't do a deal if that's not the right technology for the company you're talking to, I instead of trying to force it, and then it fails. And then I think also it's very important to have this mindset of every interaction is relationship building, right?
So it starts actually with a very first call, the very first meeting, maybe even the via at JP Morgan or whatever, right? I mean, that's your very first point of relationship building. And you have to think all your life around this and that you will see these people again, right? I mean, so create good relationships, never talk negatively about other companies and so on. Right? You can do this by asking questions, for example. Right?
I don't understand why they are doing this, right, but not say this is bad, what they are doing. Right? I mean, and I think these are kind of the characteristics would be the people, right, that manage these. And by that, create really great relationships. And then it's very easy, right, I mean. So then people will approach you, right, Oh, we heard about this technology. I mean, can we talk? Right? I mean, it could be interesting. You don't have to go out and try to sell it right.
Yeah. It's so Morgan, and I really want to highlight the of the right deal. My partner or James call it the huskies in front of the sled that helped push the sled the company in the right direction because everybody is aligned word. Okay. So just us thinking about, okay. What should be Flint next indication? We have a deal. We need to do what we said we'll do. So everybody's aligned.
Everybody know what we need to do and pushing forward, and I'm thinking about the both buyer and Beller deal that you helped sign for Mammoth, how important they for the company. Yeah. Exactly. So I think here, it was a combination of getting the company into these frame sets, right? I mean, as well, I mean, so now, coming out of academia, right? I mean, the technology came out of academia.
And so now you're in this professional setting where you need project management and you have to reporting and all these. Right? I mean, I think it's a very good learning, right, but it's, like, dictated kind of by the other partner who has done this 1000 times before. Right? So it's actually that's the benefit that comes to the company. Right? I mean, the big pharma benefits from the technology and the in the people, but then you also benefit from this. How is it done?
The disease expertise, right, which is not easy to build up. The pharma company already has it. Right? So now you can benefit on that. I think that's where these win wins, right, in the end, I mean, like we always say, this is what you have to look at. Right? And it's a very early validation of technology. If these projects work, then there will be more pipeline project but also more partnership. Right? And this is what you have to shoot for. And that's becoming more important.
And then at this time, for sure, any non dilutive funding is the winner. Right? I mean, we have to admit it that it's not as easy anymore to Pete VC funding, public funding. And so if you can do a partnership right now, might be willing to give up a little bit more, not as high up fronts and so on, but in the end, it's a win for you because the company is surprised. Right? And the company can move on and create more value. And that's also not to be forgotten.
Yeah. This is a critical point, especially during time, you know, being able to get some Flint cash that can help fund your platform. But, again, this is also very unique to platform companies because you don't have sell the future for the present. You're not, say, parting your one program. You have a whole platform and you could do many things. So this is one reason we invest in platform technology where you have both horizontal and vertical business models.
You can either partner the platform or we have some companies where, you know, they have deals around their platform. Home, even sometimes as a service, and then they have the vertical application, the indication, the drug they try to get to Morgan. So how do you make the right choices, especially in this time where money is tight, not to sell the future for the present? I think that's the art Right? That's the true art of a platform company, knowing what to sell and for how much.
Everything has a price tag. You can sell the company. You can sell the platform. You can sell part of the platform. You can sell a therapeutic area. You can sell an indication. It's really a huge range that you go from, very little to everything. And what is the right thing to do always has price tag against it. What's the real value for that deal for the company? And There isn't one answer. It's different for each company.
If one company holds several platforms, like the example of, 11, from your portfolio companies. They have multiple platforms. So if they Currier out 1, the company is still sustainable and growing its value If you're a one trick pony and you create one platform, if you sell that, it's like selling the company. And if you're a one asset, company, like you said, then it's all about that.
And that range is per company, per people, per stage company and how well you can get to those deals and for what value you can get them for. Yeah. I want to add that. I mean, so when you have these multiple indications, Right? I mean, your platform is widely applicable. I think you should also look into competition, right? And people forget that there's new discoveries every day, right?
If you think about the in CRISPR, right, gene editing, for example, pre CRISPR, there was gene editing already, right? But suddenly the hype came up was CRISPR, right? And It doesn't even mean that Trista is better than previous technologies, but everybody's talking about it, right? And we, then we saw M and A suddenly with the COVID vaccines now getting a huge push Right? I'm pretty sure tomorrow there will be something else. Right? And so you have to see what I have to balance. Right?
If I do this on my own, I mean, am I getting to a state where I'm really differentiated, might there be other approaches that then are considered the top approaches Right? And also what if others move ahead? Right? I mean, in the rare disease, do I still have a position then starting a clinical trial? There's only 3, 4, in the clinic, right? At the same time, if I maybe partner with a strong company in that field already, then we might have a chance, right?
Succeed because they have the whole acceleration of clinical development, the knowledge, right, the patient advocacy, maybe there's already the relationships and all And then even marketing this, right? I mean, not only in one small country, you know, going globally, right? And so on, getting to the full potential. So I think you have to balance this really when and what to license, but you also need to keep something for yourself. Right?
I mean, if you want to go into this vertical integration, then you have to keep something for your self. But there, you could also consider what are other technologies that are just evolving that I might be able to combine with this, for example. Right? So the big pharma will usually go for the more obvious, right? So let's take gene editing again and delivery, for example, right? So they will look at proven delivery technology and combine this, your new editing technology wise.
Maybe for you, it's the risk to take to go both into new delivery and new editing, right, which you have already the new editing in that case, or you're coming from the other side. So that's when you can create something maybe, which is really differentiated, right, towards what is out there. And that's what you should focus on. And you can finance that and build on that and validate it with the partnerships potential. That's what I love about BD.
It's a three-dimensional chest I think maybe to add on what Peter said, one of the important points is to really do a lot of homework. It's a lot of homework learning the landscapes. And benefits and disadvantages and gaps in therapeutic areas. So if you're coming with an Morgan platform, but it's a very good sustainable less toxic Morgan delivery. What's your real added value? What medical gap are you answering here that others haven't?
And that's the homework you should sit and do before choosing which indications the partner. And it's exactly like Peter said that if it's an ecological product, And there's a big pharma you can partner quickly and have a proof of concept on your platform, then you could move forward with others if you did your homework Beller. Great. So many companies, so many platform companies are trying to partner with the same Middle East or pharma companies. Right? They're not 1000 of them.
We all know who the top pharma companies are. So they are just inundated with inbound of different companies who want to talk and partner with how do you separate yourself? How do you separate the signal to noise and how you get, like, even in front of the right people? So what's the best way to develop relationship with pharma and get in front of the right Pete. I think the most important word here is trust. Right?
Every good interaction and very great relationship and business relationship starts with the highest level of trust. If you know someone that trusts you, That should be one of your first choices. So it can be, let's say, if we tier the pharma companies in 1, 2, and 3, either cash on hand or buy a big pharma midsize or small pharma. If you have a good trusting relationship, you have to remember that signing a deal is the 1st day of a long term relationship. Right? So that always works.
So trust, you have to know the company. Pharma BD are pretty brilliant people. They understand in-depth the company strategy. They know what's going to happen in the company. 5 years from now and probably 10 years from now. They know what they're looking Morgan, and you as an entrepreneur know your company. You know your technology you should know how your technology compliments theirs.
You don't know what's happening behind the scenes and their Morgan D teams, but you definitely know what's your added value and why this partnership is best for both sides. So you should come with that know how. I'm going back to what we said in the beginning that if you don't have a Cbo yet or a VP Beller make sure, you know, your board of directors are very well connected. And if they're not, get a bunch of advisors just pay the best people to get advice on who to reach and how.
And then you have to work hard. You have to go to boss and again to Boston and then the JP and to the bio. And again, to these meetings, and you have to be really kind and nice and patient. And never, never neglect the process. These are very long processes. Even if you're frustrated, my good guess is that the pharma biz dev executive that's working with you is no less frustrated than you from the length of the process.
While you're sitting, he has to pull his r and d team his business team, his transaction team, and probably a bunch of 10 other teams internally before he gets back to you with an initial answer thing enough to move forward. So lots of patience, good strong board, pay for advisors. If you don't have them, look for them, ask people around, and, you know, working hard and taking calculated risks. Yeah. Very, very good points. Right?
But maybe I would add, but maybe you said it, but so I think the relationship building starts that's very early. Right? And we have now wonderful tools. Right? I mean, we have LinkedIn and so on. Right? I mean, all these kind of things in addition to going to partnering meetings. Right? I mean, and it's not like that stiff anymore. Like, it used to be, right, like a black suit tie and so on. No. There's the evening events, right, and and start connecting when you don't need Pete.
Right, the partnership so that you have the network in place, right, when it's time to go there. Right? I mean, talk about be very honest and spend, right? I mean, you're not there Pete. Right? I mean, tell them, I mean, what you're planning to do, what is still required. I mean, it's too early, but you can come back, right? I mean, once the data is there and so on, so that you're already known in the field, right, and the company is known in the field. And that can be done in various ways.
There's also other partnering events, right, I mean, there's research building openings and so on. I'm always surprised, like, I don't see many companies there, right, and you go there. And it other people say it's a waste time, you know, and you're just going for Beller, whatever. No. But it's a relationship building. Right? It's networking already at that Beller. Right?
And you meet again, and it's And then also what we've seen more and more people are moving around from one company to another, right? So, I mean, I think being extremely respect full is very important as well. Right? If there's a negative decision on your technology, maybe that was, like, at the highest levels of the company strategic decision to not do it or whatever. Right? Or there were other relationships that made this work.
But that person that you were talking to or more will be tomorrow at a different company, right? And so then, you know, if you destroy the relationship, right, I mean, that's not good. But if you have this relationship, right, I mean, I think that's very important. I had one example of still at Bayer, we were negotiating with another large pharma company. And we even went to this, like, no go point in between, right, where we separated during the negotiation Nothing did go the right way.
They came back. We finished. It was an option agreement. We signed the option agreement after many months of negotiation. The option failed, right, but I did not Pete. But still afterwards, I met those Pete, right, and we had beers at one of the bios and so on. Right? And so then you know, I mean, whenever you meet them again, they will talk to you again, right? Doesn't matter. I mean, that this failed, right? It wasn't your input, right? I mean, that made this fail.
It was all because you were just representing the values and the requirements of the company. Right? And so don't take it personal, right, and just, yeah, think about this. I mean, we're trying to do the best, right, on both sides. And so It doesn't work out all the time. So It's really good advice. Yeah. And I think soft skills are so so important. I think an advice to founders. You wanna find the right BD First step, do you like him?
The right BD, people you would like to go to drink with that you like? I like both of the people here very much and the you know, that's very important. Like, you know, people think it's all about the brain and being smart and being calculated and knowing the deal terms, Much of it is, you know, you want to do business with those people. So but he talked about data. So what kind of evidence or traction do platform companies need to show before they go to pharma?
Yeah. That depends on the platform. Right? I mean, so in the Pete editing space, and it's developing. Right? I mean, so when technology is new, right, you don't need that much, and you maybe try, I mean, identify the few companies that are willing to go in early, right, but some does more conservative companies. And you learn that also over time. Right? I mean, I know which company I don't have to go very early I know where I can try it at least. Right?
But I think if it's developing further, I think to convince also upper management very often in vivo data is just to try it. Right? So it means a mouse model should be done. That's what people want to see. Right? And I've seen it in the past even for ex vivo editing companies want to see in vivo editing because they want to see that the system works in a safe ride.
I mean, even if you think, like, from a science perspective, there's no real link necessarily, right, but they feel more confident, right, and that's what you have to provide confidence in making the deal. Right? It's also, I mean, if you look at the revenues of a large pharma company. Right? I mean, a a 20, 30,000,000 up front seems to be super small. Right? But it's still a lot of money, and this competes after all Flint internal funding, right?
So 20,000,000 not invested at a company like Pfizer for research also means quite a few FTEs that are not hired, right, Morgan so we should not forget this, right? I mean, they are making a commitment, and they want to be very confident in that this is the right technology. And that's why I think animal models are very often now asked for. And as the technology evolves, you see this more and more. Right? I mean, more on validation required Yeah.
It seems like it takes a lot of time to create those relationship and gather this knowledge. Definitely Pete like you that can advise companies are just It's worth every penny. So let's talk about another thing. So it's one thing to have a meeting, and it's having me, it's a totally another thing to close a deal. So how long do you think the whole process should take. And do you have any advice to help get a deal over the finish line? I think it should take a week.
Oh, that's it's a good question, right? I mean, they shouldn't forget. Right? I mean, so even the larger companies, right, I mean, they include external lawyers, for example, right, in negotiations. But for the small company, this is more expensive. Right? I mean, the end, I mean, it's more part of the budget. Right? And so if you drag this all along, I mean, it gets more and more expensive, right, and it's also not knowing it and the BD person, right? I mean, it's all I mean, pay, right?
I mean, if you pay half a year or a year, that's the difference. Right? I've seen, and many of my colleagues and friends said the same thing during the pandemic, we definitely saw expansion you're making, right? I mean, it took much longer than usual, right? I mean, because of no face to face, if you as by, as you can imagine, it was across the Atlantic, right? I mean, in the country and the Atlantic. So 9 hour time difference, right? You don't have a 5 hour meeting in the morning, right?
I mean, you had to limit it to 1:2 hours and then do it again and again, right? I mean, and so that James it much more, longer, but I think generally to 6 months is a good guideline that you should shoot for, but then it always depends also on the of the deal, right? For sure. I mean, what is involved? And many people only see the deal making for starting the collaboration, but you also need to think about what if things go wrong, right?
And then that's when it can get very complicated as platform companies, right? I mean, so if the other farmer company brings in other technology, combining with your platform technology. What if the project is terminated, right? Do you get access to the full project, or do you just get back your IP, right, which doesn't help you because now it's not I mean, you cannot bring it to the clinic without the other technology, right? So all these things, right?
I mean, when it can get very complicated, it's really dependent on the case. So it used to be much easier for sure for just an asset deal, right, a small molecule that you license after phase 1. I mean, could be done much faster. Right? And if they were at the end of the year, some companies did them, like, super fast, like 6 weeks, 8 weeks. Right? I mean, but I don't think that's feasible for platform deals.
I mean, it's way more complicated than and then you mentioned the vertex methods example. Right? I mean, vertex is in the field with other partners, right, also complicating the things more, right, and if you're the exclusive partner of a farmer company, right, in the fields that you're working in. So there's all these kind of things that make less predictable, but I would say 3 to 6 months would be now after the pandemic with face to face meetings possible would be a good goal.
I think it takes us back maybe to what we discussed about what you're curving out of the company. Right? If you're curving out a product, the platform, the complexity of the deal, So a very short deal could be an M and A. If you're, a very high valued company and someone is trying to competitively buy you, it can take weeks. But if it's a very complicated deal where the pharma company is risking anything from their knowhow, it can be a very long complicated deal.
And it take even up to 9 month 1 year. And maybe in the mindset of the entrepreneurs, we should separate because for us, maybe it's obvious, Peter, but It's not when you start the discussion 3 to 6 months. The discussions can take a year until you find the right turns and find the right way to work together and what's in it for each one. And you just like you said, you go to the JP and you have the beer and you have you know, the scientific discussion. So that can take even up to a year.
And then the deal itself is 3 to 6 months. So maybe, just to manage the expectations of people who are hearing. It's not like today, we met and in March, we'll have a deal. Today, we met and in March 2024, We might have a deal. And you need a very, very long, you know, ability to breathe and be persistent and persuasive and kind and diligent and patient to make sure that this process is followed throughout that time. And it will go up, and it will go down.
So do you see any red flags or mistakes you feel founders often make when they think about this dev other than thinking that it will only take 3 months I think one of the the mistakes that I've seen everywhere, right, I mean, and it's always tempting, but only looking at the numbers of a deal, right, and thinking what is a good deal, what is a bad deal, right, It's not. Right? I mean, we discussed this earlier. There's value making. Right?
I mean, the contribution from both companies, the benefits for both companies, is it, complimentary you know, what they bring together to the table and so on. I think that can be more important than the initial early value of a deal. Right? So that's one. And I think the second one is, I think, I you said, like, it's a team job. Right? I mean, and so it it is super important to also get involved, right, as the founders.
So I think they sometimes think now we have hired a Cbo, a business development person. Now I can lay back that person will do the job and get us a deal done Right? No. You are part of this, right, as the founder, and you are the face of the company. And you also need to make these connections, right, and bring them in. But then there's delegation of some of the parts that will be done by the BD person. Right? But it's still it's one team that works together on this.
And it's responsible if the deal is not getting done. Right? It's not the BD person only, right? If there's a mistake on, yes, right? I mean, you can see that true. But otherwise, you should also ask yourself as the founder. I mean, why didn't we get the deal done? Right? I mean, was it maybe, you know, could I have done Morgan, right, and so on? I see very often this, like, separated bad Pete or whatever. Right? I mean, so that's not the case, and people should be very careful about that.
I think that was, so accurate, Peter. I think other mistakes maybe that are worth mentioning are making unrealistic promises. So be really realistic when you share the information with a pharma company. If something's still in development, then just say so. Maybe it's a good deal for co development for them. It's just worth being honest. It's a really long term relationship.
And then maybe what we talked about that it's really important to know the landscape and competition well before approaching so coming and sort of learning together with them just what work. And the other thing is that, well, you think that you and the pharma company are the only partnership that's happening. You know, Marie, like, we have a 1000, you know, 2000 decks a year. So do they, at least if not twice as much, So just make sure that your process is on track and prioritize.
And I think, you know, don't neglect that. And on the other hand, don't neglect your work and your progress of the company. Because if you meet every few weeks or every few months, it's really cool to have, you know, some progress. You can share Morgan email. You can shoot saying we have great news. We've been funded by a non dilutive funding opportunity, and it's another validation for them about your platform.
Morgan and then another mistake that I'm seeing is the negotiation and the deal structure. There is never one size fits all. So even if you saw that that company did 10 asset deals of $5,000,000 Flint, $20,000,000 milestones, and 500, you know, half a $1,000,000,000 or whatever something else. Many times those numbers are just non realistic. Don't look at the numbers that are on the paper. Look at what the deal is worth for you and what the real value of the deal is.
Do your own homework, with your own numbers, learn from you, what you did, and then come to the table. You have your red lines as fine to back even as a small company from the deal and say that it's not a good deal for you, but don't look at other deals and say this is what we have to do. Many of the numbers that are published are just, fake news. Peter is smiling. He's probably seen a press release or 2. Yeah. Mean, we can't say, right?
I mean, with the same day, we published the buyer Mammoth's deal. There was also the deal beam and Pfizer, right? And for sure, the upfront was higher, but it was also a different stage of technology, right, and people didn't understand. They said, like, oh, Pete editing company was big pharma. Why did they get more money? Right? So I had to ask these questions. I had to answer the questions Flint interviews. Right? But then people understand that it's, like, it's trivial. Right?
I mean, it's and the benefit for us, I mean, was huge, right, for the deal as well. Yeah. Faken news. Very sad. So I'm going to actually do something fun for me and maybe save me some time in one of my next board meetings. So Let's Pete your brain. Some fun use case. Let's say hypothetically, I have a company that create a novel lipid number article that can target the logs.
Let's just say what the Jess that company should do, should they wait to partner the platform with many different, pharma companies that maybe have more experience in the specific indications or control their own future and say, oh, we discovered something nobody else can do. Maybe we'll just find a drug without delivery thing, without delivery technology, and develop it ourselves hypothetically.
So without knowing all the details, It depends if they have one asset targeting the lung or multiple assets targeting the lung. And if it's targeting the lung, which cells is it targeting in the lung? And if it's targeting cells in the lung, did they go through non human primate data, or have they not? And if they have, how toxic is it? And it's such a complicated branching questions and and goes to the endless, you know, micro informations that you need in order to decide what indication to go.
But I think if 5 years ago, everyone would have said CF, today, it would be CF, right, because it's a highly competitive space, many new technologies. And on the other hand, if you have really good targeting, can you, you know, choose one of the lung indications Which payload will you take?
So, again, we're in the six dimensions of toxicity, CMC indications, cell targeting, So if I had a few, I would outlicense 1 and keep some to myself or, you know, split them between myself and the company, but that's hypothetically Yeah. I mean, it's a good question. Peter should get the kidney now. Kidney is a more to be honest. No. But it's about the payload. Right? I mean, so you need to get access to payload, right, unless you have it, and it's and it needs to be differentiated.
Right, as well. I mean, only delivery will enable it, right? I mean, delivery is an enabler, right, where the payload is usually the differentiator Right? I mean, unless you can really differentiate regarding toxicity and so on, right? I mean, but I think that's the big question. Right?
So and I think it could be one of these examples, as I mentioned earlier, for partnering with another smaller company, right, that has payload potentially, right, and then move together towards one indication and make a really cool proof of concept, right? Or, I mean, I think if it's really early, then definitely a partnership with Farmer or a larger biotech would help to validate the technology. Right?
And when you said discovery, right, I mean, I guess, I mean, I I know how they discovered, right, it's also proving this process of discovering, right? And I think that's very valuable then as well. And for that, you could indeed give up an indication where you say if it's a very attractive one, but there's also a lot of competition. Right? So partnering might be the right way to do in that space, right? But there's more indications than CF, right, in the lung NFE as I rightfully said.
I mean, there's different cell types, right? And if you can differentiate between the cell types, then you might enable many more indications, right, that are also valuable after all. We don't think of yet, right, because nobody can deliver yet to them, right? So And that's why you want to have access to Peter Nielle. I wish I could just go one by one with all my companies and get some free advice because every company is very different with different needs.
I want to emphasize maybe one thing that I see that some platform companies can do. So we have several companies in our portfolio that can actually, I won't say sell, but kinda commercialize the platform as a service And it used to be Flint about. It's like a CRO, and nobody wants to be a CRO, but it's a way to make money and generate data and potentially being able to fund your own pipeline development. Have you seen those kind of companies? And what's your thought around that?
Yeah. I've seen it. Right? I mean, so there are some new technologies in manufacturing, for example, and where this kind of applies. Right? I mean, it could be a CDMO or it could be providing the service the IP, the know how, right, so that a larger company can implement this manufacturing process. It's way more difficult because, I mean, that's maybe specific to manufacturing, but to come in so early because the regulatory password will depend on all these technologies, right?
So you cannot go and get your IND and then say, no, we changed the whole manufacturing process. And go back, right? I mean, that will move you back by 2 years or whatever. And so you have to be very early at the time when nobody wants to admit they will not be able to manufacture Right? So that's always the biggest challenge. Right?
I mean, we have to convince the companies that there's a need for new technology, right, and which is not very easy for our scientists in a large company to admit, right, that they need us very early. So you need a very good use case and maybe an internal program that has been moved forward could be done in partnership, right, I mean, but it needs to be something where this was applied to and this technology or service. Right? And then you have a very nice kind of, like, reference case. Right?
I mean, like, you can create a white paper, whatever. Right? I mean, that you can then help people understand that this is actually something that they would benefit from taking your services. But I think it's very difficult sometimes to convince companies here because it's always this dilemma. I mean, no scientist wants to admit. We can't do this. Right? And that's why we need somebody else for this.
I think it's also a chicken and egg, randomly, because if the company has funding to move their pipeline forward, then they should do that. They should move forward and create the real value for their investors and shareholders and for the company and for the patients. And if they don't, then they have they might find themselves in a position that they're looping in 2 circles.
1 is creating a financial opportunity, selling, you know, CRO services or a certain, asset that they know how to produce. And then trying to move their pipeline forward in parallel. It's really hard and really stretches the sea of the company that works, 3 jobs as is, but, you know, as a last resort, I think it can work. Let's say the other side of it is that these platform companies We're built on excellent platforms, usually. Right?
And once you go to the pipeline, you neglect the platform Pete James. So you invest in the pipeline because that's what creates the value to your company and you neglect the platform. And if it's a computational platform, it can cause, you know, both frustration to the computational team that brought this from up. And the other side of that is that other platforms will come to the table and be stronger if you haven't developed yours in parallel.
So doing these collaborations, a pseudo CRO can also benefit the level of your platforms keeping that. So there are benefits to it, but from a value perspective, the value will come from your pipeline. Yeah. And, oh, my, I think it's also coming back to one of your earlier questions regarding Cbo business development. I think it's a little bit of a different business development person that you would have in those companies. Right? I mean, maybe an example is Synagogue, right?
I mean, those are definitely different Pete. Right? I mean, from a skill set that you need, then a Cbo who's more strategic to give focus Right? I mean, pipeline building, partnership building. And so on alliance management, right, it's different. Right? This is more like service support versus aligns management, right, in a asset partnership and so on. So if you make that additional shift, right, I mean, you have to also build differently, potentially. Shouldn't forget that.
So both of you have been very active in this space either at companies or investing in companies. Are there any new avenues for biz dev that founders often overlooked or more tricks of the trade to make the process faster. So I think what I see more coming, right, and because course, there are so many competing platform companies now, right, and more, I mean, in the Pete editing phase space specifically, right?
I mean, you see a lot of companies coming I think we should think more about partnering this competition in the end. Right? The small companies can do that. Right? I mean, there's no laws again to small companies working together, right, and dominating a field. I mean, so I think that's what we will see in the future to get faster, right? I mean, to maybe even combining, I mean, we talked editing and delivery. Right?
I mean, I could foresee companies that previously had this idea, or we want to be both these hybrid model, vertical, and horizontal integration, right, and now you work together, right? I mean, and try to move specific projects, maybe an area just, right? I mean, it doesn't have to be all of the company, right, just an area forward. I think that could go much faster if you're both at a very early stage.
You can be more risk taking, right, on both sides than the big pharma company, right, that they think about the commercialization and everything. Right? I mean, so I think that's an opportunity that we will see more often. Even the joint venture, right, I mean, between Bay and Christmas there, particularly, something new in the space, right, and It took not as long as doing a deal, actually, honestly, to set that up. And so I think that those are ways. I mean, how you could do it.
Otherwise, faster. I mean, if you're a true platform company and you have done a deal already or 2, hopefully, you can apply some of the learnings and also even, you know, make it more like a template deal. Right? If it's always the same, the conditions are the James, the partners are similar in nature, then hopefully you can speed up the process. Right? But otherwise, I mean, like people. Right? Everybody is different and that it's very different. Every marriage is different. Right?
I mean, every deal is different. I mean, it takes time, unfortunately. I completely agree with you, Peter. I think the you know, the M and A of Guide was an excellent example, but it doesn't have to be an M and A. It really can be a interesting creative deal. Between early stage companies. And we saw it a lot when Alnylam and Moderna started, like, clusters of deals where they have a great platform that they can, outlicense part of it and then get some from others.
I think there's a lot more potential there. I agree with you that payload and delivery companies will be getting married, a lot in the next 2 years. I think other overlooked avenues are also between the digital companies and the platform companies. So you can really push forward many of the platform companies with tools that are out there from smaller companies And I think we'll be seeing those as well.
Again, for these, the most important part will be networking, right, because you need to have a good relationship with these Pete. And only then you can even start a discussion this. Right? I mean, you will not go out to your fierce competition and say, hey. Can we do a partnership? Right? I mean, you do this because you know the people, right, behind and that's how you or the investors, right, I mean, can also bring together companies. I I mean, very important. Yeah. Great.
So before we end, is there anything I missed? Anything you want to say that I we didn't have a chance to talk about. Just should say is business development is great. Right? It's great. It's very important right now. Right? I mean, so there's definitely more need I mean, what I see when I get approached. Right? I mean, there's more need right now. I think because of this funding situation. Right? So the big question is, will it safe like that forever. Right?
I mean, or if the situation with VC funding gets better, I mean, will companies move back more towards internal development? Right? It's an open question. I don't know anybody has an opinion or thought on that. I completely agree that business development is the funniest part in the company It's, the strategic creative, you know, it has so many elements that are unique.
And in this era where funding is a real challenge to companies, you can really shine and move the company to wonderful places with smart, patient, professional business development. And the second point that we talked about is don't do it alone. You don't have to invent business development. It's, you know, it's an existing art. It's a prior art. And you can get lots of help from excellent executives that are already there.
And the third thing is that We really try to help our platform companies in any way we can. We build a whole team that that's what they do. Connect them to strategic connect them to other VCs. And that's actually one of the reasons I joined James, but if you are surrounded by a strong VC, just get their help. You're not alone, and don't try to deal with this issue alone. I think Umree, you and your team are running around Boston as well with your companies. Right?
Yeah. So, again, thank you so much. I have only one question left is how do I get more people like you? Because all my companies need a great CDO and business development people and, how to find the worth their weight, you know, literally in gold and dollars So it's great to know both of you. Thank you for helping our companies, and thank you so much for spending the time with us today. Thank you. Thank you, Omri.