That's why so many founders in the valley are so exhausted because they're carrying everything. And somehow they've got this idea that unless they come to somebody and say, hey. I could use some help Pete. They're going to appear weak. That's just broken. So Carol Robin, it is just a pleasure to have you here.
You and I have known each other for 4 or 5 years, and you are in the center and a central force in this high impact leaders in tech, helping people think through interpersonal skills and startups and technology. And you've been at Stanford, and we wanna dig into your background today, and I'm so glad to have you on the show. Oh, thank you. I'm just so pleased to be on it and honored. Thank you.
And so you have for many years taught along with David Bradford, a course known as touchy feely at the GSP that originally called interpersonal dynamic. Mhmm. And it is the most popular course that the school has ever seen, and it's had a dramatic impact on almost everyone who's gone through it. Everyone that I know from the GSP said it was their favorite course. And there's so much to learn there, and that's not a coincidence that everyone says the same thing.
So, you know, so we often talk around here about how language is the heart of all things. I'm just curious. How did you feel when you heard interpersonal dynamics being called touchy feely? Were they calling it that before you got there? Or Oh, yeah. Yeah. They were already calling it that. And I thought that the fact that the students had named it something that was there was what mattered less than that they had nay what it had they had named it.
But the fact that it had reached the status of getting its own name you know, that was made up by the students. I love that. What's more and, you know, I have over the years, I've had to say, you know, it's a lot more about getting in touch with feelings than about touching. And what I really appreciate about it is that The emphasis is on the soft skills. The name implies the soft skills that are at the core of its success.
And in fact, I think the reason that thousands of alums for decades have called it the most transformational experience of their GSB Time is precisely because they've learned that from a professional point of view, people do business with people. So until they learn how that part right, they're gonna be limited in their professional success.
But beyond that, they also come back and talk about how the course saved their marriage, how it Beller them reconcile with their brother who they hadn't talked to for 10 years, how it has impacted the way in which they parent. So I think the courses had this huge transformational effect beyond what it has done for them as leaders. It's made them fuller, whole people, and therefore, better leaders. And if we're doing all this work to create in the world, that's one thing.
If we're getting all this money, that's another thing. But if we don't actually have those relationship that are meaningful to us, then what's the point of it at all? Absolutely. And that's the appeal. Is that why it was oversubscribed so much? Well, I think it was oversubscribed. Described because what students discovered when they took the course. I mean, they got a bunch of really good skills and competencies.
But they also discovered parts of themselves that they either had kept hidden that they thought they had to keep hidden. You know, when we get into why is this actually meaningful for startup founders? Boy, how many startup founders spend their life figuring out how to spend their image? How to answer every question with we're crushing it. And, you know, what these GSB MBAs discovered was that they had a presented image a persona that was what they normally led with.
And when they allowed themselves to be more known and seen, not only were they more compelling and appealing and influential, but they also were freer and happier. And and that experience was so profound for them of course, you know, it's a flywheel like any other flywheel. The more they talked about it as alums, the more students who James.
By the time I left, I don't know if this specific number is correct, but I was told that more than 50% of the students who applied to the GSB said they Currier to come to Stanford because of this course. So you've got this new book out now. The main idea, the core idea is just to help people build exceptional relationships. Which is deceptively simple. Oh, yeah. It's a sentence, which is just a few words, but there's a lot underneath that.
Well and, of course, if it was that easy, we'd all have tons of exceptional relation. And, also, we'd be able to turn any relationship we want into something that feels exceptional on how many people feel that one? And then very many. Right. And so from the book, let me just quote this. An exceptional relationship is one in which we can be honest with each other and trust each other and can productively resolve differences and disagreements.
It's a relationship where we're each committed to the other's growth and development as well as to our own. And so why do we not think this way all the time? I mean and why is this important? I think we've been socialized not to think about this way all the time, particularly in business. I think it starts early and then it gets reinforced. We create these mental models. How we're supposed to show up in the world to be quote successful, especially successful business Pete?
What would be your first prize that people would get out of reading this book? How are they transformed? By reading this book. Well, people in general or startup founders in particular. Let's go with startup founders just to keep it on topic here. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I use to teach at the GSP and I teach at leaders in tech is that the question that every leader should ask themselves is why should somebody follow me?
Most of the time, people learn about leadership in academic settings and in workshops and through programs by studying what other leaders have done that worked or didn't work. And that's a perfectly good way to learn about leadership, but I happen to think that an equally, if not more powerful way to learn, is for each leader to sit in that question. Why would somebody follow me?
And by the way, that is not an easy question to answer if you're really gonna be willing to sit in And so one of the things I would hope people would, you know, leaders would walk away from with the book is a better under standing of these 2 antenna that we talk about in the book. 1 of which is very tuned to what's going on for me inside of me. And the other one, which is very attuned to trying to pick up signal from you and having them work together towards something productive.
And I would argue that leaders who work on Flint tuning those antenna and learn to have them talk to each other. No easy feet. Become what we call referent figures. Pete that others wanna be more like. People that others admire Pete that others are influenced by. And by the way, what would make me a reference figure And why people would follow me might be very different than why people would follow you. But at the core, we have to be Real. We have to be willing to allow ourselves to be known.
We have to create environments where other people feel safe that they can be more known. We have to learn how to have conflict that's productive, and we have to be invested in each other. That is a wonderful Flint, and I know a lot of us seek to behave that way in our lives.
Can you help me and other startup founders understand why we see so many examples of people who aren't like that who appear to be winning, meaning they would be the diametrically opposed opposite of what you just discussed would include Travis remover, we would include perhaps even Steve Jobs from app. Absolutely. How do we unpack that?
So this was one of the big battles I always had when I was still at GSP, which was that my students would hold up folks like that and say, well, but how do you reconcile what you're saying with them? You know, my answer is twofold, at least twofold.
First of all, I think it takes somebody very different to have the right product at the right time in the right place and make a big success out of it than a person that requires a different set of skills and a different kind of person than a person who wants to build something that's sustainable. And that will outgrow them. And even more Morgan, that won't become dependent on that to survive.
So Regrettably, there are a lot of functional, but nonetheless, narcissistic leaders that have made it big because What is required is a lot of willingness to take risks. Now I would argue that a person who's willing to take risks interpersonally along with a person who's willing to think outside the box and really create some of the incredibly wonderful things that are being created in the valley are the people who are going ultimately really win. It depends how we define winning.
Yeah. Is it just about making a bunch of money? Well, you know, I didn't set out to write a book or teach a course that was gonna help people a lot of money. I did teach a course, and I'm really committed to getting a book out in the world that will help people live more meaningful, fulfilled lives. And if that's how you define success, then this is for you. So continuing just unpacking this for start founders. You know, look, running a startup, there's lots of hard conversations.
You're building something from nothing. You need to have this impossible balance of world bending confidence with also having humility and vulnerability and authenticity so that you can iterate and grow and change your product as well as your team and and on and on. So you need to be a salesperson, a visionary, a listener, a learner, Superman or Morgan. Superwoman. Right? And of course, a lot of these things feel like they're in Flint.
And, you know, if we could just come up with some scenarios that we see founders have. Maybe we could just talk through some of them. You know, the frameworks of which are in your book, letting listeners maybe get the benefit of a little one on one session with you. You could be their competitive advantage. So you said earlier that startup founders are always spinning themselves, always trying to answer. We're crushing it.
What would you coach a new startup founder to say when someone casually asks, how are things going? So I'll role play with you a little bit. You know? Hey. I'm a co founder. Ask me how things are going at leaders in tech. That's right. You're running those leaders in tech, which we should get into as well. So how are things going at leaders in tech? Well, James, I'll tell you. It's been a hell of a year. We've had some big wins and man have we had some opportunities for growth.
We, like everybody else, have had to pivot. We have had to dig deep to find why we're doing this and recommit to our own sense of mission. And, you know, there are things that I'm enormously proud of, and there's some things I would do differently. And it's all one big fun ride at times that I wanna just get off of. That is a very good description of many people situations, isn't it? And that type of balanced approach opens up a more meaningful conversation for me. Right.
I have an opportunity now to be more authentic with you. Closer, I hold my cards to my vest, the closer you're gonna hold yours to yours, and no relationship is going to get deepened in that. You know, you might have to pick and choose carefully who you do that with. Don't you? Oh, yeah. I'm not advocating, by the way, just tell everybody everything. We have a heuristic in the book that I think is particularly useful. We call the 15% rule, which is think of 3 concentric circles.
The circle in the middle is the zone of safety, which is where you don't think twice about you're saying. The circle on the outside is called through zone of danger where you can't imagine saying that to somebody. And the zone in the middle is called the zone of Learning. And by the way, that's the only way we learn is to step outside our comfort zone. If you've ever skied, you know, you don't learn by going to the double black diamond, first.
You start on the bunny slope, but if you stay on the bunny slope, you never become a better skier either. Now the same thing applies to relationship. I used to tell my students no risk, no reward. You gotta take some risks, but you can't take too bigger risks. So then they used to say, but, Carol, the minute I'm outside my safety zone. I'm like terrified that I've gone past the learning zone and into the zone of danger.
And so then, you know, we would say, why don't you try 15% of side your comfort zone just a little bit. It's funny for startup founders, we are trying to gather resources and resources come to a new startup when the resources have confidence, and those resources can be employees, could be capital, could be PR, could be. And so how are people gonna have confidence in you they need to hear that it's safe to go in the water.
And when you're in a immunity and any tech startup community, whether it's Silicon Valley or other ones, people do talk. They whisper. Yes. And so you have to kinda control the narrative in order so that you can bring the resources so you can make something out of nothing. And so I think there is network gravity, and there is network math that causes us to all say, oh, we're crushing it. Absolutely. Except that after a while, everybody knows nobody's telling the truth. So aren't we better off?
And that's why I'm saying the concept of appropriate authenticity, like what we're talking about for a moment, So if I'm the VP of marketing and that's a third quarter in a row that our market share has dropped drastically and I have no idea what's going on, I don't stand in front of all the troops say, well, I have no idea what's going on. I'm not sure I should be your VP of marketing. That's authentic, and that's vulnerable, but that's not very effective.
The flip side, by the way, is everybody knows market share has dropped for the last 3 months in a row. For me to get up there and say, hey, everybody, it it's okay. No big deal. That's also not very effective. The option is to say, hey. You know what? 3rd month in a row, we've dropped market share. Really sucks. And there are a lot of potential reasons. I don't have it all figured out, but I'm pretty sure that together, we will figure it out. That doesn't sound weak.
Sounds right on the boundary of authenticity both ways and offering path forward, offering real leadership. It's so interesting. If you can be authentic It almost triggers yourself to be a better leader to come up with better solutions. Absolutely. And by the way, Flint side of it, which is I've got this covered, or I don't admit any mistakes all that does, it goes back to some of the leaders that we've seen that we were talking about earlier.
It creates a bigger and bigger power differential between you and others in the organization. And the minute the power differential gets bigger and bigger, people stop telling you the truth. I can think of very few things that are more for a leader to do than to build an environment where people tell each other the truth. Particularly for startups, because nobody really knows what to do. You're just making it up.
Absolutely. And if I'm afraid that if I tell you the truth, you know, you're gonna fire me as opposed to say, well, let's figure out what we can learn from that. Then I'm not gonna tell you the truth. Yeah. That's interesting that they tell you less the truth the more your power differential becomes. Yeah. You know, there's a real mathematical structure there, isn't there?
And that ties into disclosure too because the more I disclose, the more vulnerable I make myself, the lower the power differential, and The harder it is for you to make up stories about me. That's another, you know, my name is Carol, c r o l e. I have this list of Corollian principles. And one of my Corollian principles is in the absence of data Pete make stuff up. And since I don't know your listeners, I use stuff, but usually I use a proper word.
But, you know, if you don't want people to make up stuff, then you better tell them what you want them to know. And that's not just about the business. It's also about you. Right. You used the word weak. A leader might not wanna Pete weak. I think a lot of people wonder if they're good enough. Mhmm. They wonder if they're gonna make it or make the grade or Mhmm. Beller it be allowed to stay with the pack or to be part of the pack?
And they don't wanna show weakness because they feel that that would disqualify the Is that true? Is that why we're so obsessed with not looking weak? Well, I think we've got a few different concepts kinda smurgled highly technical term in our brain. We tend to think that vulnerability, authenticity, and weakness are all somehow tied together. And I would argue that if you're willing to be vulnerable, you're probably pretty strong. That'd be the first thing I'd say.
The second thing I'd say is paying attention to the language we use is important. Like, you said this earlier language creates reality. And so if I think telling you I don't know is going to result in you seeing me as weak, then I'm not gonna tell you I don't know. And who's going to win? But if I see myself as saying, I don't have the answers, but my job is to make sure we find the best answers. I don't know. I think I probably look a lot stronger.
As long as the person who's making that judgment has the maturity to realize that some of this vulnerability indicates strength, not exhaustion. Yeah. I mean, we're back to, obviously, you know, appropriate authenticity. Right? I'm also thinking about what you said earlier I wanna go back to the what happens when you have power differentials that are too big. That's why so many founders in the valley are so exhausted. Because they're caring everything.
And somehow they've got this idea that unless they come to somebody and say, hey. I could use some help here. They're going to appear week. That's just broken. Right. So we have this mental model that the CEO or the founders need to carry everything. They need to the information of the board, control the information of the employees, control the information to the customers, and they're the only ones who can know the weaknesses. Have all the answer always be on top of it, always be optimistic.
And you know what they do? They don't only exhaust themselves. They disempower their people If you don't ever ask somebody to help you, then after a while, they don't think they've got much to bring to the party. Do you think the cert of founders tend to over identify their personality and worth with the success of their startup? That's a great question.
And I'll tell you if there's one thing I've really, really just gotten even clearer about since starting leaders in tech is how almost unidentifiable from each other, their own sense of worth, their identity, and their companies are. They are all one in the same. There are ways in which that serves them, and there are ways in which that is costly. Do you think that pressure makes diamonds?
Meaning, it is costly, but without that pressure cooker, they can't do the extraordinary things they need to do to take something from 0 to something big. My very first boss used to say that which fire doesn't kill. It hardens. I think that's actually better than the diamond analogy. Because you are taking the chance that you're gonna kill it. And I'm not sure it's the only way. So I do think sometimes it needs that.
I think that precisely because my experience with founders, and certainly I think one of the reasons leaders in tech has become something that's been so helpful to the founders that have been in our program is that it's one place where they can actually just breathe, talk about to really going on for them and feel Pete, emotionally met. They don't feel that way by their boards. They don't feel that way by the people that work for them.
They don't have anybody in their life who they can really be real with. Even when you said everything else aside is exhausting. So imagine adding that to the exhaustion of everything they're carrying, Right. And have you found ways to help these founders change their mental models or techniques so that it can stop carrying the entire weight I mean, leaders in tech obviously is a great way to do it.
Yeah. Having this sorority fraternity of people who are in the midst of this startup journey Pete in the valley. Yeah. Well, I think leaders in tech is one way. I think reading the book with a few other people is another way. Maybe read it with your executive team. For example, I think that there are so many opportunities. We get so stuck in our beliefs and assumptions that are outdated I have to be this way because by the way, maybe it did serve you, and then it stopped serving you.
I know we're starting to run short on time, but I wanna share an anecdote with you about I was in my very first job and I was the first woman hired and 10 years later, I was running, you know, this 13 Western State Region and I had all my guys at an off-site. I had not yet hired a woman, but I did shortly after this. But anyway, I'm there with my seven guys at 2 day site. I get all worked up because I'm really excited about something. I'm getting crickets. I finally just start to almost lose it.
And one of my guys looks at me and he says to me, Carol, is that like water in the corner of your eye? Are you gonna cry? And then he said, are you human after all? And then I burst out crying. And I said, you don't think I'm effing human? I don't think there's anything more important for us to talk about than that. And that's when we turned ourselves and I tore up our agenda, and we spent the next 2 days talking about who we really were. And that's when we became a team.
And to this day, that was a long time ago because I'm an old woman now, but To this day, I believe those men would follow me anywhere. Now could I have busted out in tears the 1st year that I was on the job? No. But had I now over indexed on being a certain way and not tested whether my mental model how to be most effective was still serving me? No. Got it. So you knew that you had to show them that you were gonna put food on the Beller.
Yes. And once you had done that, Then you can pull back on the throttle. Exactly. And by the way, at different points in time, people will follow you for different reasons. And by the way, different people will follow you for different reasons. One size doesn't fit all. That's what makes it both fascinating and sometimes extremely challenged. Yeah. Have you seen founders fighting with each other? Are there some examples that you can think of it? Because it happens a lot. Right?
And it's hard, and it hurts. And it's scary. You know, how do you help some of them work through that? You know, there's a fair amount about this in the book too, which is how do you address what we call pinches? Before they become crunches. If you're doing something that's mildly annoying to me and I don't say anything to you, you'll keep doing it. And the more you do it, the more annoyed I'm gonna get. And then the harder it's going to be to talk to you about it.
So rule number 1 is establish some norms to address pinches when they're smaller. Instead, the tendency is is to say, it's not a big deal. Not a big deal. Not a big deal till it becomes a big deal. The second thing I'd say is that tax Flint, which is, you know, should we roll out that new product line this year or next year? That's a very different kind of conflict than I don't ever feel heard from you. I don't feel acknowledged by you. I don't feel valued by you.
Those kinds of conflicts are much more destructive to relationships. Interesting. And they're more destructive because Because they create more and more distance and the more distance I feel from you, the less I wanna invest in problem solving with you. The purpose of these conversations when we're having a conflict is to move into a problem solving conversation, which first has to start with getting curious about what's going on for each other.
Being committed to getting on the other side of it, not getting stuck with who's right and who's wrong. There's a lot in the book about that. Yeah. It's great stuff. And I guess you know, you've been working now with the leaders in training program, and you've coached all of these GSP students who have gone on to start these great companies. Are there tough conversations that you see coming up more frequently for startups? Yeah. Between co founders in particular.
Not even just like with startups. Like, where do you spend your time. Where are the repetitive conversations that you have with people? Well, I'll tell you. One of the really big ones is how to create environments where people tell each other the truth. And what gets in their way. And especially how to give to why there's a big section in the book about giving and receiving feedback, Beller, And, you know, everybody's like, oh, I've had feedback training.
Beller, you know, most feedback training is just really basic and pretty large It's an art and it requires curiosity. It requires not making up stories about what's going on for the other person so you don't make offensive. It requires staying the course that the purpose is to move into problem solving. It requires making sure both of you know what your intent is. Some real basic stuff that when I say everybody's gonna be like, oh, yeah. Of course.
But how many people actually do that when they're in an argument? Not very many. Right? But, you know, I think a lot of people in startups are moving fast and hard. And sometimes I think it's very hard for them to think, wow. I can pay a little bit now or I can pay a lot more later. They're like, I just can't afford to pay right now. Right.
Yeah. It's almost as if you have to take time regularly to lay that foundation so that when things do get pinchy or worse, you can have enough space and breath to actually navigate skillfully. Yeah. Instead, they're very kind of or they're passive aggressive or, you know, they think I don't have time to give this person feedback. Well, you know what? There's nothing more efficient than the truth.
And by the way, You know, if you establish a culture where people tell each other the truth, I said this before, you're gonna have a far more sustainable, successful Morgan. Not to mention the fact you're actually gonna grow and develop more. I think that's the other thing that happens, James, which is that in a startup, it's hard for manage to feel they've got the luxury to invest in other people, invest in their development. And yet that is one of the most important roles of a leader.
People don't show up at your door fully develop. Otherwise, you've gotta pay them more than you can afford. Right. So you've gotta take Pete, all of us who are works in progress, but people who are earlier on in their learning curve Mhmm. And create an environment where they can see that they are moving down the learning curve. Exactly. Where you've shown them how to learn and how to mind their situations for learning, and that's hard. That's why a lot of people end up hiring coaches.
And then, well, they should. Yeah. I've often thought that soccer coaches should make it clear. I'm not teaching you soccer. I mean, we'll be playing soccer, but I'm really teaching you leadership, and I'm teaching tenacity. I'm you practice. Discipline. Discipline. I'm teaching you all these things. This is really what you're here for, not actually for snucker. Exactly. Then work is a little bit that way as well. Well, Carol, it is just a delight to talk to you.
I'm so glad that you guys after 4 years have put this book together, connect that you and David Bradford have put this together. And I can't wait to read more of it and to implement it. It does take a while to read because there's so much going on here. And it's the most important stuff. Totally agree. So, hopefully, they'll all You know, read the book, buy books, read them together. Eventually, we'll have probably some kind of a 2 day program that goes with the book, but for now, buy the book.
Great. Carol Robin, thank you so much. Thank you, James. Just a delight to talk to you again. Take care. You've been listening to the NFX podcast. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you can subscribe to the NFX podcast. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. For more information on building iconic technology companies, visit NFX dotcom.