This is The Next Trip Podcast with Aviation Insiders Doug and Drew. Together with more than 40 years of industry experience, They are creating a network for other app geeks and travel enthusiasts to obsess about all things aviation. All thoughts and opinions are their own. G'day and welcome to Boarding Pass 276, operating on March 9th, 2025.
This is Doug, an airline pilot, and I'm here with my buddy Drew, an airline ops manager and private pilot trainee. We're here to discuss aviation topics from an industry insider's perspective. We're taping on Friday afternoon. Listeners have asked us to explain when we're taping. We're going to get to it later. Luckily, it was a very slow news week. Knock on wood, it stays that way. We don't have to circle back, do a go around on any of these topics.
drew you're back from your i do this in air quotes networking trip to chicago How's the operation looking and how was happy hour? Oh, my goodness. It was great. It was a great networking trip. What is so cool about the company is that mingling with us at the buffet and after they speak are vice president.
So you can go up to them and ask them whatever you want. They're very open. They're as honest as they can be. Hold on. Time out. The vice presidents are allowed to mingle, but the presidents and above, they're in their own little... You know, sometimes our president will make an appearance. This time he didn't. So I was disappointed about that.
But what can you do, right? I mean, we have all his... right and left hand men and women there so we were able to ask a lot of good questions we discussed our performance last year, and this is going to be similar for the major carriers, we did really well. No surprise. They're thinking we're going to do really well this year too. There was a mention that the economy is slowing and all that, but It's full steam ahead for us and many of the major carriers around the world.
really um that was really uh comforting to learn because i have been at that meeting doug at that same meeting in 2020 where they didn't cancel it because it was already the wheels were in motion As COVID was happening, we were having this huge conference like we did. And it was a very bittersweet and concerning, you know, and the CEO was there. He was like. I don't know exactly what's gonna happen. We have to make some decisions. Some of them are gonna be very difficult.
This was a much better meeting. People were happy. We're going in the right direction. Yes, there's some softness in the economy, but they said the airline is very strong and we're able to withstand basic, I don't want to say, they didn't say anything, but they said not to worry. regarding that what we're seeing in the markets and stuff and we do we're looking looking forward to a good summer we're adding a lot of roots a lot of new planes so it was um it was good and then
Cocktail hour afterwards is even better when we get to talk to people. And it's always a lot of fun. And it's nice. I'm the manager and three or four, actually more, if you include ramp suit. ramp suits, customer service suits, they're also there and we're able to mingle with them and not talk about work.
Or maybe talk about whatever they want to talk about. This is not like, I'm not going to pull a PowerPoint out of my pocket and say, hey, we got some time. Let's look at our baggage stats. Oh, by the way, let me talk to you about these things. Even though they know I want to do that, I wouldn't. So that was good. And then I'll talk about the cabins later because I think it makes a difference because we have a story about cabins. So you had a failed attempt to fly.
And I know you're all revved up for it. But the engines didn't rev at all. What happened? No, the engines actually did rev. We're going to talk about the KC-46 issues in one of our follow-on topics. Actually, I think it's our main topic today. I don't want to get too far into depth on that. Essentially what happened was we had a boom issue, like not boom operator, but the physical boom itself wasn't passing.
the pre-flight, that kind of stuff happens. It's any airplane. I mean, you had an airplane that the engines failed to start. On a commercial airplane recently. Yeah, it's not. Maintenance issues happen. Unheard of. Because of the boom issues, we ended up losing both of our activities. We were supposed to...
practice taking gas from someone and then practice giving gas to someone else. But because of the boom issues, we got delayed, delayed, delayed, ended up losing the activities, decided we were going to do what's called a pattern. Essentially what you do in your Cessna 172, take off with the intention of just doing practice approaches. practice landings, instrument approaches.
It was going to be a couple hours of just beating up the pattern, which actually I was looking forward to it. I was really looking forward to it. We got greened up. The airplane didn't get fixed, but we said the boom, they can't use it. We were going to land early so that maintenance had all night to try and fix the problem. I asked maintenance.
If we take the airplane, is it going to hinder you from fixing it? Because we need working booms. We can't just take the airplane away from you. Like, would you like to have the airplane now? We can just cancel and you can try and fix it. They said, it's not a simple fix, like we can't fix it for you, but it shouldn't be an issue getting it fixed overnight for the next day.
So I said, okay, so if you're comfortable, we're still going to take the airplane, go do some practice approaches. Perfect. Yes. Everyone's in agreement. We green up, shut the door. Engines started. We were about ready to call ground for a taxi, and we heard that someone had a bird strike on arrival. So they shut down the only working operating runway because one of our runways is closed right now for construction. Shut down that runway.
They went to, in the military, we have, it's called birdwatch condition. They went to media. which means you can only do an initial takeoff and a final landing. You can't practice approaches. So no pattern. No pattern. So it's like, okay, what are we going to do? Take off once?
circle around land once that's not good training that's not good use of taxpayer money i said let's just we have tried literally we sat on the airplane for like three hours trying to get all these try and salvage what we could at that point i talked to everyone i was like how are you guys feeling what are you thinking
I know what I'm leaning as the captain. I'm not supposed to just come out and say, supposed to, to pull everyone, see what their thoughts are. Most people are like, I think we've squeezed as much juice out of this. You try it. It's training anyways, this training flight as we can. I think we should just cancel. I said, yep, I agree. That was my thought too. Shut the engines down and that was it, unfortunately. Are there other aircraft you could swap into like we do every day at the airport?
I don't want to get too far into the weeds. We were supposed to be a formation. Our formation partner had already canceled and we had a couple of their pilots who hopped on our flight with us. So we were already down an airplane. And now all of a sudden we were having issues. So no, there, there was no other airplane that we could step to. Oh my goodness. All right. So the NPS score on that flight was like.
Yes. But didn't you salvage it somehow? Because didn't you guys go to a bar afterwards and discuss? We did. We went to the squadron bar afterwards. A couple of us hung around for a couple of hours and we just chatted about... not necessarily flying things, but status of... the unit and changes we can make going forward we turn it into
basically like your cocktail hour where you're just talking about sometimes work stuff, sometimes not work stuff. It was productive, even though we didn't actually fly. Yeah. A few other things from more specific things from the conference. There's some really smart people working at our company, working on all kinds of projects. It's never good enough, which is great.
There's a lot of change all the time with our app and stuff like that. But I met someone. His name is Nick. He's going to listen to the podcast. He wants to work in the SOC possibly. But right now he's working. He's out of college. He's working on a project. With our ATC team. And it is so cool, Doug. It is basically like Google Maps for flight plans.
So right now, and I'm sure you've had this because we see this all the time. So the planes go out and the planes are routed on departure fixes, which is like the Highway 80 or the Highway 405. You're routed on that highway and that's your flight plan. There's a traffic jam on the 405 or the 495, or there's weather on that route. They have to file a new flight plan if they choose a different, what we call a departure fix. So at Washington, like our main fixes going to Europe are swan and paleo.
so i'll be right right on swan it's like oh we can't go on swan go over swan because there's a thunderstorm right in the direct path of that departure we'll ask even though we're not the dispatcher dispatchers are busy we'll suggest hey Can we route via Paleo or can we go north on Jerry's, which is another one that goes straight north and then turn going east? You have to file a new flight plan with the ATC. So what they're working on is like Google Maps.
Where Google Maps will give you one. There's a delay on your route. Do you accept this new change? Yes, accept. Yes, exactly. So that other flight plan is already in your flight plan. So if you're flying from Washington to London... you're routed on paleo all of a sudden paleo is not available because of traffic or weather and route on google you can see all the other routes you just click this other route that's already in your flight plan and you can just pivot
Without having to refile? I like the joke that you made. It was like... There was an emergency return to the airport. The runway is closed. Is this plane still on the runway? Yes or no? Like you get with your Google Maps. Is the car still stalled on the side of the road or reported? accident is the accident still here did this airplane return to the like uh use the we're not going to talk about it but the newark the fedex 767 that hit the birds had the engine fire returned
Is the engine fire airplane still on the runway? Yes or no? No, it is removed. I mean, we're laughing, and that's going to help the FAA. So this is something that... we are creating, and I'm sure other airlines are creating stuff like this too, and... The FAA will decide how the information is disseminated, especially if it's something that also goes to them. But if we give it to them in a nice package with a bow, it's like, we've done all this work for you. Please take it.
Please, you know, please use it. ATC is very involved. The FAA is very involved with us, so they'll work on that with us. One more thing about technology, Doug, and this is a real life. You talked about my first plane coming back to the gate. When I was coming back to DC, 737-700, we had to go back to the gate because they had a problem with the engine start. And I've seen this movie before. These things are never fast. It could be a quick fix. Who knows?
I know that there is a, so this is around five o'clock. I know that there's a six o'clock flight to DCA with seats on. And I'm going to book on that and just... Cut your losses. Yeah, cut my losses. But the other draw... was when I was at the gate for my flight, I walked over. I just started walking just to see some airplane eye candy. I saw an A321. I'm like, oh, my God, that is so cool. Eventually, I want to fly on.
the departure monitor said dca i'm like i don't remember that because i would have booked that if i knew it was a321 it showed an a320 so i look and it's on an a321 so we changed the equipment type at some point So that was the added draw. It's like, I'm switching. I wanted to go on that anyway. So I'm switching. And Doug, I did all of this while sitting on that plane on the app. I had a very nice civilian sitting next to me and I'm like, okay, don't just listen to me.
What we're going to do. But let me book mine first and then I will help you book your replacement seat. So I did. And she's like, oh, really? We can do it. Yes, we can do that. I asked if she had a bag checked. Because if she has a bag checked, that's complicated. It's still going to be on this plane. So she did. And I was like, all right, let me show you how to do it. Let's make sure it's not a fire drill.
once the plane gets to the gate and she's like, well, let the, will they let people off? It's like, yeah, I'm pretty sure they will make an announcement offering egress so they can stop the taxi time. And I'm like, I just told the civilian this, so they better offer that. Yeah. Which they did. We both got off, got on the other flight. But listen, I messed up in that whole rush.
I made sure her booking was fine. Like she booked it. You forgot to finalize yours. Yeah. And on the app, it's so cool because it offers you options as soon as the breaks are reset. We apologize. Your aircraft has returned to the gate. If you'd like to take another flight, these are available. Got her set up and then I did mine. But Doug, I was such an idiot. I booked myself a non-rev bookie.
So I'm going to the gate, and I'm like, why don't I have a boarding pass? And I'm like, oh. So then I have to cancel that and rebook it very quickly before everyone else. But anyway, moral of the story is we were both able to do all that without bothering a customer service agent. all on our personal devices. It saved everyone time, and this is a stressful situation. It made it so much less stressful to be able to do that on an app.
And it's much better for the employees, too. Before we go on with the episode, I want to do a follow-up on what we talked about where... We were confused about these liveries. Can you quickly just tell us again, tell the listeners again, your... KLM-Martiner conundrum when you were young. We booked through either Northwest or KLM, showed up to the gate. It was a KLM-painted 767 on what we thought was a KLM-operated flight. We boarded. It was a KLM interior. It was the blue KLM seat.
It was a Martin Air crew, both the pilots and the flight attendants. The onboard duty-free was all Martin Air swag. There was nothing... that showed KLM other than the KLM airplane and the KLM seats, but it was operated. fully operated pilots and flight.
by Martin Air Crew. We'll have to see how good your memory was. But I really trust that you saw the livery and then you saw the flight attendants. Oh, absolutely. I have photos of it. I can show you photos that I took at the gate. It was 100% a KLM 767. No question. Okay, so this is a weird situation where Martin Air was using their operating certificate to fly this KLM airplane. Would you agree with that?
Yes. Okay. Because the pilots were Martin Air. The flight attendants were Martin Air. They have their own specific training. They still have their own specific... operating certificate, but the airplane looks like KLM. So this is what we were talking about last week, where that could create a lot of confusion and possibly a concern with ATC if you're looking for a KLM 767. If you're looking for a Martin Air 767, and what you're seeing there is KLM.
even though their call sign is Martin there because that's who's operating it, right? So lots of confusion. And so it wasn't just us that were confused. So I looked into this. There's a International Federation of Air Traffic Controllers. in april 2024 in singapore and they raised this issue because there isn't anything that icao
has outlined for them for situations like this. I'll put a link to the paper on the show notes so you can go through it. It's very thoughtfully written. But basically their conclusion was, if air traffic control offices... Include information about aircraft colors and markings in passing traffic information. The operation of a leased aircraft may cause confusion in aircraft identification, right? Just what we're talking about.
This in turn could possibly compromise safety if an air traffic control office is not advised by the pilot that his aircraft is leased. What they're saying is we need some kind of guidelines to be able to identify. these planes and apparently doug we already have that there is some guidance from the faa the faa as well as air services australia
This is, it's not written in stone, but this is their recommendation. And the example they're given, I don't know when this was written, but they're talking about Ercal. So you have to imagine an air cow. This is like 40 years old because they're talking about a 727. I know.
So imagine an air flight that is... operated by air cal the only thing that's different is they have leased dry leased a united united uh 727 so yeah obviously a long time ago they dry leased a united 727 the only difference is the aircraft. Everything else is AirCal. It's their cruise, their operating certificate, their call sign. Now it's confusion, right? Because it's a united painted plane. So if you're telling people to look out for something, there's confusion.
So what they're recommending is this crew would call in, like their flight number is 311, Air Cal 311, United Lease, Boeing 727. That brings up the example that I used last week, though. All these regional airlines that are flying for whatever carrier, and they're painted in whatever carrier, but they're using their own call sign. SkyWest 234. painted as a Delta connection, you hear Sky West, you hear five Sky West.
But one might be American, one might be Delta, one might be United, one might be Alaska. That causes confusion. But they don't say SkyWest. Delta 2411. They just say SkyWest 2411. But then ATC will say... follow the Delta E-175. And you're like, oh, okay, that must be SkyWest 2411. But it's confusing. Yeah, I mean, an example I've seen is... Iberia was flying to Dulles with A330-300.
So one day I'm looking, and it's this airline called Level, which is also owned by IAG. It's a holiday charter. They use the Iberia call sign. Right. Because it's Iberia's low-cost arm. I've seen that in San Francisco. Okay. They do. Yes, I've seen that in San Francisco, where it's Iberia. It is operated for Iberia, but it's a level airplane. we get that in San Francisco all the time during this. Yeah. So, I mean, these controllers are saying that is an issue, so they should add.
level livery or something to say what it is. So anyway, we thought it was a concern and so do air traffic controllers. And you can read the whole paper. It's not that long. It's three pages. But they were saying this especially happens in the summertime where there's all these extra... sections and all these leases so that we can operate more flights in the summertime because there's more traffic, you know, to go. And that's what it was. It was in June.
which is when I did this KLM Martin Air question mark flight was in June summertime. Yeah. All right. Well, we went, thank you for that research, Drew. We did go long on the opening. So let's dive into this. We're going to talk about what's going on with the show today. Here's our flight plan for the show. We're going to talk about yet another new aviation startup who's aiming to shake up the industry with a major airline partner. No more paper tickets.
mergers and acquisitions update for the pond, what does it cost to retrofit an airlines fleet? We're going to get back to the KC-46 issues, and then we're going to end with some... feedback drew our opening topic this week is something that really flew under the radar and didn't get much attention in the media or on social channels did you see this new flying wing design that delta has part
I saw what you did there. I don't know if you did it on purpose. You said that something that flew under the radar, is it because this type of aircraft can evade radar too? Yes, I was trying to do a little play on words. Have you seen this, though, before I sent it to you? No, no, you sent it to me, and no, I hadn't. I looked at it after you told me. I hadn't seen it in the regular news. I feel like something like this.
should have gotten a lot more attention. We talk about Boom, we talk about Archer. This is yet another one of these. As we've said it before, and we'll say it again, this industry will look nothing like it does today in just a few short decades. Drew, with that, what is Delta up to? Delta announced this week that it is partnering with a company called Jet Zero, who is designing a blended wing body.
BWB aircraft that is expected to be 50% more fuel efficient than today's planes. Oh my God. So that's the step. That is the leap that we need. Because we constantly talk about the next generation being – Yeah. And we've reached what's called diminishing returns because what the current – of the aircraft we cannot it's hard to make many more advances right you can just
make it lighter, but at some point. The Jet Zero and Air Force are working on a prototype that is expected to fly in 2027. Delta's role will be to assist the company with the design process. from a commercial visit commercial viability Delta's chief sustainability officer, Amelia DeLuca, said, quote, working with Jet Zero to realize an entirely new airframe and experience for our customers and employees.
is bold and important work to advance the airline industry's fuel-saving initiatives and innovation goals. While Delta is focused on doing what we can today to address our carbon footprint, It's critical we also work with a variety of partners to advance revolutionary technologies, like Jet Zero's blended-winged body aircraft, to solve for a significant portion of future aviation emissions.
Also from Delta's press release, Delta will help design an interior experience of the future to ensure a best-in-class customer-employee experience, the uniquely shaped airframe that differs from today's tube and wing shape offers endless possibilities. With Delta at the helm of designing the interiors, customers can expect changes that enhance their experience, including dedicated overhead bin space for each passenger, accessible seats and lavatories, and fewer rows.
What we can expect after boom, because the boom is already, the boom. Overture, which we keep talking about, but it's that supersonic plane that's being built in North Carolina, probably starting this year. That looks like a Concorde, but this is beyond that. The body is actually... a significant part of, or the body is the lifting surface of this aircraft. It is. There are wings on it. And of course, they haven't built it yet. They're in the design right now, the design phase.
So who knows what the actual, because remember the Sonic Cruiser looked really cool and it turned out to be a 787. Who knows if this will look like the specs that they have right now. My question is gate space. Because it looks wide. Where are they going to put it? It's not like you can put it at just any gate. We're constrained to gate space.
It looks wide, but as far as the wingspan, with the body also creating lift, you may not. Well, that's what I'm saying. The wingspan looks wide. It's hard to tell distance just on their little schematic that they put on this press release. But I think it's awesome that Delta or any airline, it could be American, it could be United, it could be Alaska, it could be any airline. It's awesome and good.
that an airline is working with this company and with the Air Force. Because if it's just this company and the Air Force working together, they're going to take everything the Air Force wants. And then they're going to be like, well, how do we make this into a civilian version? Back in the day, Lockheed thought they could sell the C5, the C5 Galaxy, to airlines and basically have...
their version of what now is an A380. But the airlines looked at it and they were like, well, we weren't brought in early enough in the design process. There's nothing that we can actually use this airplane for. Yeah, it would be great to have a whole bunch of seats. but the design just isn't there. Having Delta.
as part of the design process to be able to say no we really need it to be this way this is how we can do the interior yeah that'll make it commercially viable which is really important this is awesome I love this. I love that in 15, 20 years, we're going to have all these crazy airplanes and designs.
that don't look like the fifth iteration of a 707. Right, and I think all these programs are finally getting some steam, and we're actually seeing... planes being put together like the archer electric plane the archer midnight is going to be built this year And the Overture is also going to start this year, so it's finally happening. This might be a few years away, but I think things are moving much faster. And this isn't Boeing. This isn't Airbus. This isn't Embraer.
This is just like Boom and Archer and this Jet Zero. It's new. It's new entrance, which is what we need to be able to keep the industry going forward. I guess I can put Comac in the innovative. in the mix here too. All right, Drew, let's jump ahead, try and get back on timing, back on pace. For the first time since December, this week was finally a slow news. But what's going on? Yeah, it is nice to just talk about regular stuff like...
corporate stuff and development stuff like we just did. Alright, let's jump across the pond for our first news story. After facing regulatory pushback against full mergers in recent years, airlines are beginning to focus instead on minority stakes. According to Reuters, airline executives refer to these smaller stakes as bite-sized deals, which aim to cut expenses and time spent on larger tie-ups. Previously unreported, at least on this show, Lufthansa announced a 10% stake.
in Latvian airline AirBaltic. I don't know if they're in the Star Alliance or in one world. I think they are. I think they are a star. Yeah. Okay. Still on the table is Portuguese flag carrier TAP, who has attracted interest from three major groups in Europe, Lufthansa, IAG, and Air France KLM. The latter announced on Friday that it is set to present an offer to the Portuguese government to take the airline private. Air France KLM has emerged as the leading contender for the deal.
though it has yet to be determined how much of a stake the Portuguese government is willing to part with. Sounds like Alitalia. It kind of does. TAP, I don't think, is going away, even if they're purchased by Air France KLM. It's not like Alitalia turning into ITA. I think it'll remain TAP.
Again, has yet to be seen. But the fact that all three of the major groups are interested in it. This article that I read was talking about how Lisbon... is a prime, what did they say, prime hopping off point or prime connecting hub for South America. because of the Portuguese connection to not just Brazil, but tap flies to a lot of places in South America. Lisbon is probably the best. connecting hub out of all the European connecting hubs when it comes to flows going to South America.
Which, in my opinion, is part of the reason why all three of these big groups are vying for TAP. Lufthansa already has a partnership with TAP because they're in Star Alliance.
But everyone wants that peace. Everyone wants Lisbon as that hopping off point for South America. Yeah, and also Lisbon, that would also be a good stopping off point for Africa because there are still previous colonies that... speak in portuguese that they could fly to i'm just thinking off the top angola i believe is one of them
You know, that's definitely, they could ratchet up that business through Lisbon. We'll stay in Europe for the next news story. The continent's largest airline, Ryanair, said it's going to become the world's first paperless airline when it does weigh with paper tickets in November. Paper tickets still exist. I mean, I'm asking this.
So this is definitely a slow news week. I thought we were already paperless. Have you seen a ticket stocked? Well, let me read through these bullets, but I will tell you, I know for a fact, the last time... that I actually had a no crap paper ticket. I'm not talking about like an e-ticket that I then get the boarding pass printed. The last time I had a paper ticket that the airline actually had to FedEx to me.
It was in 2008. That was when I flew to Hong Kong. Oh, okay. Yeah, I can't even remember. After that, it's all been e-tickets. But this, this isn't just, we're not even talking like true paper tickets. We're talking boarding pass. here. The airline CEO Michael O'Leary initially said the airline would be paperless by May, but has revised the date due to unforeseen technical difficulties. Beginning on November 3rd, the airline will only accept digital boarding pass.
According to Ryanair, the move will save 300 tons of waste per year. The airline already charges an extra fee for passengers who require check-in assistance at the airport. Your aunt, who just flew back from Sri Lanka, she shows up. doesn't have an e-boarding pass doesn't know how to check in guess what there's a rep from ryanair saying yes we will help you just put your credit card down here we're going to charge you
10 euros or 10 pounds to help you check in. Media reports in the UK say that some passengers have protested, primarily those without smartphones or other electronic devices. Never worry, though. Ryanair says that, quote, Guests who have already checked in with a smartphone that breaks or runs out of battery will be helped. dot dot dot free of charge how kind you know people just have to accept the future and you know my aunt is 85 years old my mom is close to 80 she can use the app
She just wants that communication with me. So I get on the app and I do a screenshot. And send it to her, and then she can just show them that, you know, when she's boarding. She can do that herself, but I think she just likes the attention. I don't know. But still, she is using, she's tickerpless, right? Because she's using that screenshot.
to get through security. And I sent all the reservations to my aunt on Sri Lankan Airlines and the company all on her phone. It's like, you don't have to print anything. Just show them this. But I will tell you, in 1994, I was there, I think I was working for America West in Oakland, and we were, like, stunned that this would happen because we were so ingrained into printing these paper tickets. We're like...
What, so we just have to trust them that they have a ticket because it's in the system? It's like, yeah, you do. Okay, here's what I'll say. When they went to these e-boarding packs, Checking on your phone, you get the boarding pass. The first probably year, this was maybe 2009, 2010, the first year that this was available, I still printed the boarding pass at home as a backup just in case.
because I didn't, quote, trust the system. Now I've been doing it for years. It works great. I can totally see moving away from it. I don't want to sound doomsday here. But how many times in the last couple of years have we seen the news about AT&T's system is down for 24 hours? Their phones are just brick.
Oh, it's back up and running. That's great. But what if you're flying Ryanair, your system goes down, you can't check in because the system is down. That's where I understand most people don't actually get the physical paper boarding passes anymore. But airlines should still have that backup. As a pilot, I have an EFB, electronic flight bag. It's an iPad. Yeah. With all of our pubs, weather, all of that. But every single app that we use has a backup.
to another app in case that app goes down. And guess what? If the entire iPad system goes down, we're able to go to ops and get everything printed for it. What Ryanair is doing is they are removing that ability to even print paper boarding passes for customers. I understand they're pushing for not using paper. I understand they're trying to get away from these 300 tons of waste.
But as an airline, wouldn't you want to have a contingency in place, not just say it's done, we're never doing it again, but at least still have that contingency in case a cell operator goes down. in case something and there are a million things that could happen. It's like those dot matrix printers that we talked about. We still have them on the shelf. We do in ops as a backup.
Just in case, even though they haven't been used in years, we still have that backup. The fact that Ryanair is moving completely away from it is a little questionable for me. I can't remember the last time it's happened, but we have had to dust off the computer outage procedures. And I'm at the shift manager desk. And thankfully, again, I can't remember the last time it happened. It must be years.
But we had situations where the system died. That doesn't mean we stop operating. We have backup plans. So I get that blue binder, computer outage procedures. Here we go. This is how you do their boarding passes. This is how we're going to do the bag reconciliation. You guys didn't see it, but Drew licked his fingers and he went like a bunch of sheep protectors to find a spot in this checklist.
But we haven't had to use that recently. But if you're concerned about systems going down, what I would do is when you get your boarding pass, just make a screenshot. Because if you don't have any connectivity wherever you are, which you might not, that is a concern if you're traveling overseas. Just make a screenshot of your boarding pass and you'll have it. um and i have had that with the priority pass have you ever had that where
You get your card on the app and you'll be in a foreign country and it's spinning, spinning. Yeah. Now I have a screenshot of my... Priority pass. I still carry a physical priority pass. I request one, even though they don't send it anymore, because I'm always like, what happens if I get to that one lounge in whatever country and they don't even accept the e-pass or I can't find it or whatever? I still have that physical card.
I'm a millennial. I basically, my generation is different from yours because I grew up in the, or I guess I'm the same because I grew up in the analog age and then we transitioned to digital. I understand all these Gen Z and beyond. They grew up fully digital. So they're the ones who are like, yeah, we don't need analog. Yeah. I know digital enough that you still need analog as a background.
oh no so i don't have it on my person but in my bag in my little backup pocket where i have an extra credit card and a copy of my passport I have my Priority Pass physical card, and I have our company's physical card. And I remember when we were in Copenhagen, that's the only way we got in, by showing them our actual physical card. Yes.
Yeah, you never know. So just have that in your pocket. Let's move on to aircraft interiors. So we like to complain about aircraft interiors when they are outdated. or are not competitive products i think we're overly critical about that more way more than the civilians updating cabins is an expensive endeavor doug for airlines How much? Try $5 billion, at least if you're Emirates. The airline CEO Tim Clark said this week that Emirates will spend $5 billion to retrofit 220 of its planes.
Clark said they have no choice but to do so as Boeing and Airbus struggle with delivery delays. specifically the more than 100 triple 7-9s emirates has on order which by the way we don't have We don't have an official certification date. It's still jumping through hurdles, over hurdles. We have no choice. So he goes back, Tim Clark, he says, we have no choice this is the only way we could sustain and grow the entire network
Meaning to update its existing aircraft, according to the CEO. I have a lot of thoughts on this. Go ahead. You jump in. Okay. Our company is updating the interiors, and thankfully it's moving much faster. I flew to Chicago in our showcase new interior. Oh my God. So nice. Ryan, who listens to us in North Dakota, he was raving about it. He was raving about the new interior and the Bluetooth audio.
He doesn't get that excited about much, right? He's pretty cool. Well, hold on. Can I ask? You were on a new airplane, though, right? You were on a Max 8? I was on a Max 8. Our Max 8s are delivered. I was on one of our NGs last fall with the new interior. Yeah. One of our 15, 20 year old airplanes with the new interior. That to me is even more impressive than a new airplane getting delivered with the new.
When you can take our old outdated, which I'm sure your 737-700, you're probably going to get to that, was outdated. When you can rip that out and put the new one in, we joke about it. grandma gets on and is like, oh, look, honey, we're on that brand new Airbus. 737 max neo airplane it's like uh no grandma you're you're on a 25 year old 737 800
Yeah, no, back to Ryan. Exactly what you're talking about. So he flew a Max 8, but then he flew an A319 or an A320, and he was impressed that it looked like a brand new plane with a new interior. Anyway, my point is this stuff costs a lot of money. But then you have me raving about it. You have Ryan raving about it. and it's a real draw so now when i'm thinking about airlines to fly i'm like oh let's fly that carrier because it's always so nice on board, right? You start to feel at home.
And it's you have like the IFE that that we have is like on an international flight. You know, there's not a lot domestically that's exciting about travel, but I will tell you these new interiors. It just makes it seem like it just really improves the experience. It completely ups the game. Yeah. I would say even civilians that boarded that A321 to DCA, they don't talk a lot, but you know that they're like, okay, this is really nice. I like it.
I can tell you not all civilians, though, because Marissa and I have been on flights with the updated interior, and I'm raving about it before we even get on board. I'm like, this is going to be awesome. It's the new interior. You're going to love it. After the flight, I ask, how was it? And she goes, I don't know I didn't really think it was that different than other things I've been on
Not everyone gets excited like we do. Yeah, not everyone gets excited, but then they probably think about it and they're like, okay, I did like that. When I asked my aunt which flight she liked the best when we were going to Sri Lanka because we flew like three different airlines, she said it was ours because of the seat, specifically because of the cabin. So it makes a difference for some. Tim Clark is talking about how much it costs and that he's literally saying we have no choice.
I don't know if our airline is saying that, but I believe that. I believe we have no choice. If we're not competitive, we don't have a lot of competitors domestically for network airlines. We have to do it. just to keep the passengers we have and keep growing our clientele. I would say it's no different than hotels. You go to a hotel that's 25, 30 years old that hasn't been updated on the inside. It looks like it's out.
and then you go to the competitor, which happened to be built at the same time right next door, that they've put millions of dollars into updating the interior, you can tell. And that's kind of a point of pride. In fact, recently booking on Marriott, I've seen they will say updated interior. Like they'll have a little yellow bar that says updated or maybe not interior, but like renovated or something like that. So you can look and you can be like, oh.
Yeah, even though the exterior looks like it was built or designed 40 years ago, you know that you're going... a new hotel it's the same thing with the airlines oh yeah well can I just tell you one more thing just real quick that's completely related so Robbie and I are showing one of our rentals and it's we've had the tenants in there for a while and walking through it and bringing other people to look at it I'm just like When we walked out of there, I'm like, Robbie.
We got to redo this interior. We got to. It's not like we don't have to do it. I mean, it doesn't have to draw. It's acceptable. But we have to do it if we're going to get a reasonable rent. So this is like the same thing. Exactly. All right. All right, moving on. Let's get to our main topic. Doug, as you mentioned earlier in the show, your KC-46 flight canceled this week after you had already started the engine.
I'm sure you already knew about our main topic this week, but it's now being reported that the Air Force instructed Boeing to halt deliveries of the KC-46. This is due to cracks that were found on two planes waiting to be delivered. The cracks were found on the outboard fixed trailing edge support structure. An Air Force spokesperson said, quote, The damage does not pose a safety of flight concern. However, identified cracks must be repaired before returning an aircraft to service.
Boeing, the program office, and Air Mobility Command are working to quickly identify the root cause and develop both a near- and long-term way. It's also being reported that Boeing and the Air Force became aware of crack potential.
to the aileron hinges. So is that the trailing edge structure they're talking about? To the aileron hinges in 2018, and that the 767 has been known to develop these cracks over time. But then you ask the question, I know I'm stopping in between, but these are new planes.
It says over time, so are they just... lower quality i don't know this might be any i don't know when i first told you when i first told you about it you were laughing or not really laughing but you're like man what are you guys doing to those airplanes if you're having these cracks in the ailerons how are you beating them up
But then it came out that no, it's new deliveries. The new deliveries have maybe flown three times for their test flights, and they're already... having these cracks so it's not me or my students having hard landings or just jerking the flight controls around who knows what's leading to it yeah i would assume it's you Doug, this is the first time these cracks have been discovered on yet-to-be-delivered aircraft. Boeing said, quote,
Doug, I'm sure there are some things you're not at liberty to discuss, but damn. Yeah. You go first, Drew, because I don't know how much I can really talk about. I'll let you... riff off of this i i hope we get the answer to this because again these cracks normally develop over time so are these
parts just that they had on the shelf when they were building the 767s for airlines in the 80s and 90s and they're like oh we should have some in the back office let's just use those or is it just poor quality from the manufacturer of these control surfaces. What do you think it is? To be honest, I don't know. And I do know that we were having issues with this. Like I said, I wasn't really at liberty to discuss until this actually came out in the news.
This isn't just happening at our base. It's happening other places too. there are lots of airplanes that are grounded right now for the inspections and waiting on the repairs what's leading to it until we found out that it was two airplanes sitting in Seattle waiting to get delivered. One of them was supposed to come here, by the way, to my base. We're not getting that airplane until we figure it out. So it's not things that we are doing.
Which was a question like, hey, are we beating these airplanes up unnecessarily or something that we're doing? No, I think it's just the manufacturing process. I doubt that they just have these aileron support pieces. sitting around. My guess is they're manufacturing them as they're getting put on the air. Yeah, maybe we'll find out. Maybe we won't. It's the Air Force, so that's not information we're privy to all the time.
We, as in you, I'm privy to some of that. I can't really talk about it. Until this came out, I didn't realize that the commercial variant had this issue as well. I had never heard that. Yeah, me neither. Who knows? 7.6, still a great airplane. I enjoy flying it. Not as much as the triple, but... It's fine. Well, hint, hint. They can restart that program. We could really use a small white body, but we've run... trying to, what's the word? We've...
We tried to cross that bridge before, and Boeing won't budge. Yeah. Same with the 757 restarting, but I digress. All right. We received a lot of great listener feedback this week. Let's kick it off with a hotline call. This is Laura Ketterman. I'm in Phoenix. I'm actually home in Phoenix. I just called to tell you, guys, I was so happy to hear you say on this week's podcast that you got lost in Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris.
Thank you. I got lost there last summer, and I was with my husband, so here we have two well-traveled airline people of 40-plus years. And we got lost. We couldn't find our gate. It was terrible. And I didn't tell anyone about it. I certainly didn't tell Tyler. We finally saw security and we started going through it. They go, you need to be upstairs. I'm like, well, how do we get upstairs? It was just, it was a debacle. But we found our gate and we got back.
But I'm glad to know that I wasn't the only one and that you were brave enough to admit it. Keep up the great work. Love listening. Bye. Drew, it looks like Laura had the same issue that you did. Yeah, it is very confusing. And this comes from an av geek who knows airports and loves airports.
I can't. I mean, if you ask me how I got from the main terminal to the gates, I'd be like, I have no idea. And especially when we were the second time when I was leaving with my aunt and I had to say goodbye to Ian. We just had to go in this elevator that was near the ticket counter. And that was where I said goodbye. And this elevator somehow goes to a secure area. Oh, my God.
But again, in their favor, once you got to our gates, it was fabulous. It was a very nice terminal where the gates are for Terminal 1, that new concourse. Also on the Paris front, contributor Daniel, who's written to us before, emailed us with some Paris insights of his own. He said, Famous bakeries are overrated. Best to find a neighborhood family-run artisanal bakery where you know that everything is made by hand. Classic bistro food from a neighborhood bistro is the best.
My favorite is a half-roast chicken with fries and a salad. 100%. Yeah, because we found that bistro, which... Condé Nast and everything, but it was great. It was just a random bistro. And he said, and yes, CDG is the worst airport I've flown in or out of, even though it was my home airport for over a decade. I love the hamster tubes and the long moving carpets that go under the ram. But it's a love based on nostalgia, not practicality.
We were recently in Paris and hoping to try the Star Lounge at CDG. Unfortunately, our flight canceled and we ended up taking the Eurostar to London to get home the next day. And on the Starlink contract issue, many people have gone to jail for far less. Doug May heard of the Darlene Druyan incident and how it changed government acquisition.
Absolutely. I don't want to get too far into the weeds. It's all public. Like I can talk about it, but that was a complete disaster that we have studied and said, don't do this anymore. You know, our corporate compliance.
videos that we have to watch every trimester drew basically the air force has the same with darlene's incident he continues that whole spacex situation is extremely fishy and likely to end up in litigation for a very very long time Technical issues aside, the optics of the man currently running the government
We're not saying Elon Musk is running the government, but there could be that perception because he's making a lot of changes. The man currently running the government re-awarding a $2.4 billion contract to his privately held company.
are pretty atrocious. Doug, this is where we hope that our checks and balances will intervene and just make sure it's a fair playing field because Verizon... T-Mobile, all these other providers would have a case if they wanted to bring it to court to say, no, we think this is unfair that the person who makes Starlink... is also part of the US government and has influence over the decision. Just like you said, every year we have to do a company-based training and they ask us,
Five different ways. Do you have any relationships with any people that do work for us? Any contracts? That's basically what this Darlene incident is. And the only reason I bring up our company compliance is because this morning for like two hours, I sat through and listened and clicked through all of these things. And I joked with Marissa, I was like, The reason we're doing this is because people have done this before.
have enough people who don't do it, and then maybe we don't have to do these corporate compliance lessons any longer. Well, yeah, and it's so off the charts. I mean, Elon Musk doesn't not only just know the person... That has this contract. He is the person who owns... But touching on what David said about Paris,
I completely agree. And the hotel that we stay at for our Paris layover is, it's in central Paris, but it's outside of the main tourist areas. I have some Paris layovers where we don't go, like, I don't go to the Eiffel Tower. I don't go to... Arc de Triomphe. I don't go to those places because I can literally just stumble out of the hotel, go left or right, five blocks, 10 blocks, 15 blocks.
find that artisan bakery, find that bistro, and I don't have to walk and go to the touristy areas, and it's locals who are there, and the food is fantastic. In fact, I think I told you last time I was in Paris, what do I do? I bring gallon Ziploc bag. I buy croissants and other bread, put it in the Ziploc bag, seal it so it doesn't dry out on the flight home. And I bring it home to my kids. My kids have French pastries for breakfast.
the day after I get back from Paris, that still tastes as if I had bought them that morning. Yeah, and before we leave this topic, For all our Parisian and French listeners, we are so jealous of you. We are so jealous of you because in Paris, literally every block, there's an artisanal bakery. There's an artisanal chocolate.
There's artisanal cheese where that family has been making cheese their whole life for generations. You know, we were very critical. I was very critical about that croissant in Paris. Paris is amazing. And just the fact that we're talking about, you don't have to go to the Google review places. You can find random places all over Paris, all over France that are fabulous. Not just that. Do you know why a lot of our crews love going to Paris?
For the butter. I haven't done it. Apparently, if you buy the butter in Paris, you bring it home. You can give it as gifts. It is so good. From what I've been told, I haven't done it. We have a lot of people who the reason that they do Paris trips is just to get the butter. In fact, on a flight, we'll ask, hey, what are you guys doing on your layover? Flight attendants, pilots, you name it.
Going to Paris, most people are like, oh, I have to do some butter shopping. You think wine, you think other cheese. No, it's about the butter. Well, yeah, try having – so we had a butter tasting. A friend recommended this. So everyone bring your favorite international butter. So we had a New Zealand butter. We had an Italian butter.
we had a french butter it was really fun they all tasted very different all right moving on we have to finish up we received another great five-star review this one from ghost ghost slider quote doug and drew are the avgeeks extraordinaire from talking about all aviation news in the world to comparing some of the world's best airlines
Exceptional talk over things such as the A321neo to boom. I love hearing Drew's private plane flights to Doug Loving to fly to Taipei and back. I would definitely recommend this podcast to anyone, in quotes, or in all caps. who wants to get the inside scoop on aviation news and information. You will definitely get pulled into the conversation and come out with a lot more information than you could possibly imagine. Way to go, guys. Keep up the fabulous work and looking forward to it.
Wow. Thank you, Ghost Slider. Yeah, that was excellent. That's really nice. One more thing I want to bring up before we move on. Our buddy Greg sent us a list of the 20 busiest worldwide airports. Unfortunately, we had already typed up this episode. I say we slide that into next week, Drew, because there's a lot of really good information.
and what Greg said. I can't wait to look at it. Okay, I'm excited about that. Thank you, Greg. All right, we also have a follow-up. So we got an Apple five-star review from... This guy named Six Packs. And he gave us a really good review. But it was like a little bit backhanded in a fun way. Like he was saying, my favorite part is when Drew messes up or something. And, you know, we read his reviews and he also responded back via email.
So he said, guys, I'm Six Packs. I just finished hearing this week's podcast. I had to laugh out loud when you called me out. I would gladly be part of the public enemies list. So currently, for those of you that don't know. He's volunteering. Our public enemies are Francis in New York and Aaron in Los Angeles. And we call them our public enemies because they're constantly correcting us.
99% of the time they're right. Sometimes they're not. Sometimes we have a difference of opinion. But what I love is They listen intently. So even though we call them our public enemies, we love them because... You know, we love that interaction. We love that they listen so closely. So you are public enemy number three, officially six pack. So if we make a mistake, call us out on it. And we appreciate the review. So he also said, because we thought, do we know this person, right?
He said, we have never met. I am a listener in Miami and quite the aviation nerd. Keep up the good work. And Drew, thanks for being a good sport. I wasn't sure if the shot at you would be taken in good jest how I meant it. Oh, I wasn't. Yeah, how I meant it. Keep up the great podcast. And if you are ever in Miami, please feel free to reach out. So when we're in Miami doing another low fare carrier thing or whatever, we got to have a drink with.
Yeah. Unfortunately, our Miami night was like nine hours based on when the flight left and when we got in. Didn't we, like, literally just... I can't even remember. Yeah, we literally... We just stayed at a hotel by the airport. I don't think I even got in until, like, 1 a.m., and I think our flight to New York was, like, 7.30. I mean, it literally was, like, in and out fast, to the point where...
Should we have just stayed at the terminal? I mean, that was kind of the discussion. This was years ago. All right, Drew, what's on your departure board this week? Nothing, Doug. I really have nothing other than just work, and I'm trying to think. The weather is starting to improve, so we'll just be getting ready for our summer schedule. So we're looking at the schedules. We'll be getting an extra bank of flights.
because uh new york has a runway that's going to be under construction so there's going to be basically they're moving about 20 flights to us kind of mid-date around three o'clock just to kind of ease ease the pressure on newark while they get that runway construction I think that starts at the end of March. But other than that... Maybe that's practice for when you get your new terminal. You know what I mean? Practice is in trying to root a little bit more.
through the D.C. area as opposed to New York. Yeah, no, we're very hyped for it because we're thinking if we do a really good job with this additional bank of flights in the afternoon, we'll get to keep it. Right? Because we only have like four major banks of flights. So if this does really well, we can keep those 20 flights. That's the goal. Doug, you'll be traveling on a new plane tomorrow, tomorrow night, I think. What day is it? It's Friday. Two nights on Sunday.
I don't want to talk about it. I'm going to save it because I have a surprise for you on my return flight. I'm not going to tell you about it until I'm actually on the return flight. Okay. I have to go to Denver for my Sims and my check ride. We'll talk about the whole trip. I don't even want to tease it. We'll talk about it after I do it. So next week, next episode. But I get to go do engine out practice and then get evaluated.
Yeah. I mean, you were doing your prep and your training. I'm like, oh, that is so exciting. And it was putting you to sleep. While I was thinking it was so exciting. Yeah, I was like, yeah, I'm literally falling asleep doing this. To our friends and contributors, I said that pretty closely. Yeah. This podcast is your show. So go on our website, nexttripnetwork.com. Let us know what's on your mind so we can talk about it or give us your feedback. You can also follow us.
Instagram or threads at next trip podcast. Please tell your friends about us. We can reach more people who love aviation and travel. And you know, our, our recent reviews from six packs and, uh, I think ghost slider have been, uh, Apple reviews. so you guys that is actually the best because number one we'll get your review and the whole world sees it and you give us a five star rating so if you could do that
Go on Apple Podcasts. It's a breeze. Go to the end where the comments are and just write to us. But if it's more personal, you have more detail, feel free to send us an email. You can also call our hotline to ask a question or just rant about something like Lara did. The number is 872-529-5620 when calling from the U.S. If you're not in the U.S., call DAO 001 or PLUS1. Thanks to all of our friends and contributors for your support and for joining the conversation.
We'll see you next week. And in the meantime, stay aviation tough. This has been the Next Trip Podcast. Visit nexttripnetwork.com for information about previous episodes, trip reviews, aviation photos, and other aviation-related episodes. This is your show, so search for The Next Trip on Twitter and let Doug and Drew know what you want to talk about. Not on Twitter? You can also email them at nexttrip.podcast at gmail.com. Please consider leaving a review wherever you download your podcast.
It will help other listeners like you discover this show. Marissa, I think it's in the closet. She forgot her phone. oh she was gone all that time she was in the kitchen she's leaving now it's in the closet i'll wait Toodles. Hey, we're internationally renowned. Thank you. We are award-winning. Oh, wait. Can you ask Marissa if she can re-tape the end? Yeah, we will. I won't ask her now. She has to run. Well, not now. Yeah, I know. It's on my list. Sorry about that. Anything else?