Why do the Conservatives have a problem with Muslims praying in public?

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the Conservative Party would have kicked him out. Now, Tommy Robinson isn't some sort of moral signpost. He was pointing out how much their party has changed. They're more inclined to his views, and he's right about that. The fact that he's sitting on her front bench shows she's too weak and has got absolutely no judgment.

That is Keir Starmer talking about the Shadow Justice Secretary Nick Timothy, who commenting about a group of Muslims getting together in Trafalgar Square to mark the iftar when Muslims break the fast. during Ramadan said mass ritual prayer in public places is an act A row has now broken out between the two main parties. Is Kemi Badnock prepared to disavow the words of her own Justice Secretary, or does she agree with him? Welcome to the newsagents.

The news agents. It's John. It's Emily. It's Lewis. And the event that took place in Trafalgar Square. was a collective breaking of the fast as uh Ramadan drew to a close in London. It's the final week. And the event was part of the Ramadan Temp Project, Ramadan Festival. Uh And around three thousand people, including Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London,

open Iftar and it was designed to be for all faiths, for races and backgrounds, united in the heart of our capital to break the fasts, honour the values of the holy month, and send a message of hope. That was the message of uh Sadiq Khan.

Nick Timothy has seen it in a completely different way. Pointing out that actually In Trafalgar Square across the road is the church, St. Martin's in the field.

and that actually doing this so close to a church was showing act of domination as if we are bigger than you and intimidating the people in the church. Yeah, and his tweet was accompanied by a picture of people praying, you know, bending down on their knees, and he Put out this post which suggested somehow it was threatening to the fabric.

when called in a public place, a declaration of domination, perform these rituals in mosques if you wish, but they are not welcome in our public places and shared institutions. So he is I guess making the point that Trafalgar Square should be a public place and if you want to pray, or in his words, call for the domination of of Muhammad and Allah, do it in your mosque. He has been cheerled on by Tommy Robinson, who has said at last

You've seen the light or words to that effect. The Overton window shifted. Thank you, Nick Timothy Which is why Kiss Darmont was referring to him. Let's just hear Tommy Robinson in his own words. I want to use this to congratulate where am I? Blaze Green Room. But I want to congratulate and thank every patriot Everyone who stood up, everyone who refused to be silenced, everyone who played their part in shifting the over and window so far.

So much that a Conservative Member of Parliament now feels comfortable to state these facts. Now if this would have been twelve months ago, eighteen months ago Two years ago, there'll no MP would have said anything like this. Do you know why? Because the left had the monopoly, they would have absolutely crucified him, the Conservative Party would have kicked him out. Do you know why now they can say this? Because of you.

Because you took to the streets in your millions. You have given confidence to people to speak the truth and know that there's support for that truth.

For that feeling, for that pride, for that courage, for all of it. It's there now. You did it. So just to clarify, Trafalgar Square has been used for Sikhs to celebrate their festivals. By Jews to celebrate Hanukkah, their festivals. It has been used by Christians and by no denomination at all. Only when the Muslims went to pray in the last week of Ramadan did it strike a chord into the Shadow Justice Secretary's heart that he felt the need to tweet.

I think this um has to be viewed in um the light of a wider radicalisation on on the right of British politics. I think Tommy Robinson's right. I think two not often you say that, particularly on this show, but you know, two years ago, I three years ago, you probably wouldn't have had the the shadow justice secretary.

saying something like this, basically saying that it's okay to be Muslim in this country as long as you're quiet about it and we don't see you. That's basically what the kind of critique is of of of saying this is an act of of domination. But I think that not just in the Conservative Party, but on the right of British politics generally, we see again and again use the the phrase, Emily, one of our favourites you know, the Overton window is

Shifting and shifting and shifting. Well now it's Tommy Robinson telling us about the Evident Windows. You know, if we go back, say five year five years or so, um there was a sort of watered down inquiry into accusations of Islamophobia or anti Muslim sentiment in the Conservative Party. It found even then Counselors calling for Muslims to be banned from the party, uh thrown from bridges, forcibly sterilized, members in anti Islam Facebook groups

Offenders nonetheless quietly reinstated after short suspensions. We had the then leader of the Conservative Party, well I think he wanted to be leader at that time, Boris Johnson, you know, writing columns about women looking Muslim women looking like letter boxes. We had Suella Braverman when she was in the Tory party. Claiming Islamists were running the country. Lee Anderson, when he was in the Tory party, said they'd taken control of the London Mayor. We see on the wider right.

The online right in British politics, which is now the driving seat, the driving force of much of the right of politics now, constant references to the idea that London in particular has fallen, partly because it's got a Muslim m mayor that it's been taken over by

Islamists and even in the last what month or so, we had Kemi Badnock herself, who has certainly not resiled from from Timothy's Nick Timothy's comments, in fact she's defended him. You know, after the Greens won the Gorton Denton by election, basically saying

that Muslims uniquely had voted because they were being sectarian, because there was a Muslim bloc vote. An accusation that she would never have made about other religions or other groups of people. So I think that, you know, you've got to see it in a party or in the guise not just a party but the sort of wider right, which Seems uniquely

To have a problem with Muslims. It isn't just and I think there is a legitimate conversation to be had about multiculturalism and multiculturalism versus integrationism and so on. But the target of their ire, whenever they're talking about multiculturalism that always seems to be the same group, i.e. Muslims. And that if you're a British Muslim, I can completely understand, you would find that a big problem and troubling.

And Emily, you you you talked about Trafalgar Square and the history of Trafalgar Square. I I think what's really interesting is that you know, one of the metaphors about the the way that debate has become so polarized in this country is that in the public square there you know, you can't debate these ideas.

Trafalgar Square is literally our public square. It is where groups left wing groups, right wing groups, protest groups, religious groups, nationalist groups, all sorts will go to Trafalgar Square to kind of have their day out or whatever it happens to be.

I'm looking at a picture right now o of a group of of presumably British Hindus celebrating Diwali. Or when when Rishisuna is the Easter procession or Hanukkah or whatever it happens to be. So so to put Nick Timothy's point in full, because he's just responding to the Responded to some of the criticism in the last three hours.

He said the point is not that Sikhs have danced on Trafalgar Square or that the Passion Play has been hosted there, neither is the point that Muslims have gathered on Trafalgar Square. The point is that mass ritual prayer in public, he says next to a church.

is an act of domination. Well the square is next to a church, so I think you have to remove the church from this. But I guess What he's pointing to is an idea that when people gather of whatever their faith or whatever their um their their creed. you can dictate what they do and don't do, right? So d are you really gonna say, well,

Come on, Sikhs, you're allowed to dance, but no praying, right? You're allowed to gather and celebrate the end of the the the festival of Ramadan, but no pray like do you understand what they're saying when you call them dominant? Or is it just the fact That a lot of people turned up. I mean, is it the language? Is it the fact? Is it the the motion of prayer? Or is it just that he got scared by the number? Right? And I I don't still think from his tweet

We under even his explanation, we understand that. I don't understand how you differentiate between an act of prayer and an act of celebration or an act of festivity. Well I suppose the the the answer to that would be

ac mae'n ymwneud Nick Timothy wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i' You know, an extremist interpretation. of the Quran which justifies kind of whatever is happening, attacks on whoever you want to attack and all the rest of it.

Uh Islam is not doing that. It's not i th th those Muslims are not seeking Islamism. I think he is talking about Islam. He's talking about Adhan, which explicitly denies other religions, including Christianity, Frankly, Nick, every single religion thinks it is the most important religion because otherwise how would you ever get anyone to follow your religion?

But then I mean that undermines it so the point is the Pope thinks that Catholicism's the best religion. And the Jews think of themselves as the chosen people. Everyone thinks their own religion is the right religion, otherwise, why on earth would you follow it? It's like following a football team.

So I look you know, if you are looking at areas where there is an attempt at domination, I mean I think that Friday prayers in a no lot of countries You know, if you kind of see the Friday prayers that it would take place.

in Tehran at the height of the revolution or other Middle Eastern countries. Those were very political events. It was a chance to burn the stars and stripes, burn the US flag, burn the Israeli flag. You were you you know, uh you were enemies of the West and there was a political movement So would you say no Friday prayers should be allowed in Trafalgar Squares? Friday people were gathering in Trafalgar Square and burning And it was threatening. And and it was threatening, then yeah, of course.

This ultimately goes down to, or comes down to, um, our model, the British model of multiculturalism, which is is as I say, basically it feels to me that The one the Conservative Party is quite rapidly moving against and moving against in particular with regard to Muslims, which is I think where the sort of inconsistency comes. Because look, I mean, if the objection which you could make and this is what a French style secularist would say

We have no religious events in public spaces because that goes against No headscarves, no crosses, nothing else. Secularism um because it's intimidating and the state doesn't permit it, and non-religious people shouldn't have to see it or or come into contact with it. Okay, you can say that. But what you can't say, or at least you can say it, but then you start getting into some pretty dark territory, I think.

is that um and you can definitely say what he's if if we go down the French style, that is very contrary to all of our countr our kind of traditions. But if it's Muslim only events, if you're basically saying you have a particular problem with Muslim style group prayer. Not only is that inconsistent, not only does it send a very

quite dark message to to to British Muslims. But it's actually unlawful. It would be unlawful religious discrimination because you would basically be saying that Certain groups that we like or find unthreatening, say Hindus or Sikhs or whatever.

can take to public squares and can celebrate and celebrate their religion, but this particular group can't. And and that is just and that that cracked all sorts of problems for the French, by the way. Their model has not succeeded either. In fact and ours has been much more successful historically.

So what is interesting I guess politically is where this leaves the leader of his party because this all happened in Prime Minister's question. This is meant to be the chance for Kemi Badnock to fire five questions at the Prime Minister, after which she has put him on the spot.

And she tried to sort of talk through the relationship between Epstein and Mandelson, which obviously has been rumbling along Pretty consistently since the beginning of this year, and he turned the tables on her and said, Will you disavow your shadow justice I don't know what it is about that role of Shadow Justice Secretary, but everyone seems to become radicalised in a matter of weeks, you know, darling Jenrick has now

fled the party and Suela with him. But isn't it interesting that she is now in this fix where she's gotta decide. Right? She she's gotta decide whether she follows him or she slaps him down or she lets Keir have a A win on this, or she has to justify him? I mean, she's just come out yesterday, right, with I presume a very strong advisor in her ear who said Just sound rational, just sound normal.

Stick to economics, don't play the culture wars, don't follow Trump down this weird dark rabbit hole of wherever he's going. Just be the person that that is sort of rises above it all. And now she's in danger of getting pulled into this totally new

right, cultural rabbit hole, which I don't think makes her look very strong. Well I I think that She probably agrees with Nick Timothy. I think instinctively she agrees with Nick Timothy. Um and I think for the Tories to be more Islamophobic. Well I mean that that's the thing. Kevin Badnock has disputed the existence of Islamophobia. You can have anti Muslim hatred.

But sh her argument would be, and this is a sort of received wisdom on the right now, that you can't have Islamophobia and you shouldn't have a definition of Islamophobia because we want to be in a position of Critiquing Islam. So that's been another kind of front in this ongoing battle on the right. I do think one of the huge changes that's taken place over maybe a twenty, thirty year time span is the sort of public show of religion.

No actually when I was growing up I didn't see menorahs being put up in public. It you didn't see the And do you like that or do you Well I just think it's something that has changed. I when I moved to America and and you know, the building where the BBC is on kind of M Street

You know, it got to Hanukkah and a menorah went up and I thought, Really? Well political parties is a thing that's that started in the last few years. It's sort of s sort of part of digital life, I think, you know, sort of political parties wishing you

A very happy Easter. Like w this is up from all the lads at the Labour Party. We wish you a very happy Easter or or you know, actually the Conservative Party tweeting out like pictures of a crucifix and going, Hallelujah, he is risen on on Easter Sunday. And like It's quite new, right? These sort of like forcible expressions like that.

A sense. Does anyone find that uncomfortable? You know, are are we we we work right next to Drafalga Square. With if you walk past that, would you find uncomfortable? And actually quite interesting to hear some of the views which is like, no problem with that. But if that was a Jewish festival

I I I I would be more worried. Right? I'd be more worried about the anti Semitism because we know that anti Jewish crime is much less picked up than anti Muslim crime. You know, I think th the anti Jewish crime is is is half as often prosecuted as anti Muslim crime. So, you know, their point was like I l I love everyone being able to celebrate in Sharga Square. But if I was Jewish I wouldn't want to be

at an event like that because I wouldn't feel safe. Frankly I would not feel safe. But that is also the point. I'm sure that's true, but it's also the p illustrates the point, right? Is that there is no way if there was a a a s a celebration of Judaism in of whatever form in Trafalgar Square, Nick Timothy ain't complaining about it.

Right. There's no way in a million years. So you don't have to worry about Nick Timothy. No, and uh of course so it's different worries, but I'm just you know, in terms of and particularly I mean for example, I mean you know, imagine I mean it is you know, uh Ramadan is coming to an end, E to think on on Friday. I mean imagine I mean that's another element of this, right, which is the timing. Imagine if in the Jeremy Corbyn era of the Labour Party, or even today someone from the Labour left.

you know, who uh had been accused of anti Semitism in the past or whatever, you know, had decided in the week of Hanukkah or whatever to, you know, really criticize a Jewish festival or whatever it happened to be that was taking place in Trafalgar Square, they would have rightly been uproar about it

But on half of British politics at the moment, there will basically be some applause for Nick Timothy for, you know, saying the brave thing and and ultimately Well that's his first line. Too polite to say this. Many too So what he's ba I mean he is coming f from a very similar place, I think. of of uh generic, which is are you th i it's that kind of are you thinking what I'm thinking?

You won't dare say it, but I'm doing the work for you. I think I think what a lot of Muslims worry about and a lot of you know, peop those of us who believe in a pluralistic society, which is until recently what you know uh w was something of a consensus in in British politics, that there is a sort of Systematic effort going on on the right, particularly online now, to present

ordinary Muslim religious life as and civic life as inherently threatening, as inherently dark and sinister and antithetical to British life. And I think to hear that basically being articulated, at least to some extent, from the Conservative front bench. I think that is

new or at least it is part of a trend which I do not feel like. Not by Islam, not by Muslim prayers in Fralga Square, but they do feel threatened by the protests that have, you know, become so dominant. in parts of central London over the last two years which have been anti Jewish, which have had anti Semitic elements, not all of them, but there has been a very steady anti Semitic element to them. And so I think What has happened is that, you know, Kemi Badnock and others have been on pretty

clear ground when they've condemned the anti Semitic rhetoric of some of the marches, right? Which has taken place week after week. But this has spilled into a question. I think you've got to distinguish between the sort of Uh what is religious faith? And you know, the idea that a protest could take place outside a synagogue or a synagogue itself would be attacked when worshippers are just going to practice being a Jew or or an attack outside a mosque because someone happens to hate Muslims.

as happened in Finsbury Parker a while back. Um, I think that is just reprehensible. I think that anyone should be able to practise their faith how they want to, and if they want to have a Hanukkah

you know, as happened round my way, you know, last December, that they were gonna be the first night of Hanukkah, they were gonna be the light candles were gonna be lit on the you know, near where we live and it was a public event and there was no problem at all and it was kind of very nice and community driven.

Fine. But that's not the same as supporting the state of Israel or hating the state of Israel. Supporting Iran or hating the state of Iran. I I think it's just the conflation between if you are a religious person If you're a Jew you support Israel. Yes. If you're a Muslim you support the And that's dangerous, by the way. And that is so dangerous. That is the stuff that I find really obnoxious. And I just think the th the trouble with the Nick Timothy thing is That they're that was about faith.

I don't think it was about domination. I think it was about people He made that connection. Yeah, and he made that connection. And and I think it has to be viewed in through this lens, which we're seeing more and more of. on the right of British politics, which is to basically make the idea of Britishness more and more exclusive. And that isn't just ri limited s t to race and Islam, by the way, although they do focus on that a lot. What have we seen as an increasingly central part

of the online discourse on this, we've talked about it on the show before over the last year or so. The idea that for example Rishi Sunak, not a Muslim, a Hindu. Isn't English or isn't British. And that has an inherently racial element, right? Which is basically to make the idea of Englishness or Britishness white intrinsically white, intrinsically um sort of a uh intrinsically against uh someone who has come to this country either recently or not so recently and also

you know, fused into that something we see more and more of, which I think again, if you're a leading politician, you have to be wary of if you're talking about, you know, Muslim domination of public spaces. which is the idea of the great replacement theory, which has again become absolutely central on the R I'm not saying Timothy's articulating that exactly, but this is the sort of thing which was once completely fringe and has become

more and more central. So it makes it's incumbent, I think, on leading politicians to be careful about what sort of flames they're fancy.

And in that space I think you'd also have to throw the Greens, right? Who you know, Zach Polanski is now a leading politician, second in the polls. You mentioned Gordon and Denton. And part of their campaign was I mean it was very two pronged. They had, you know

The lovely plumber from Greater Manchester. I'm a plumber, I'm a plasterer, and you know that spoke to huge numbers of people who s who said, Great, you know, here's a practical woman, a can do woman, great, let's have her and and then they ran this sort of separate campaign which was in Urdu, which was talking to specific parts of the community

which was not kind of explaining in Urdu about bin collection or explaining in Urdu about how to do your recycling, which had pictures of Modi, Narendra Modi, alongside Keir Starmer, as if to say, do you realize what Keir Starmer's doing? They they ran a foreign policy campaign. In the middle of Gordon and Denton. And I do think they have to take some responsibility. I mean the Conservatives have done that about Kashmir in the past. And and you know it's not

It's not completely unprecedented. I mean, you know, I I sort of think i i if we're talking now, if we're treating the Greens as a grown up party, if we're treating th their leadership and and and you know, him as a as a major player now, which he will be in the next election. You do have to ask a question about whether you want to run sort of

I don't know, micro targeting different campaigns to different communities in different languages, talking about completely different things. It's not about uh i an it's not a linguistic point. Yeah. It's about running completely different campaigns to try and speak to people about completely different issues. in a way that has nothing to do with who actually represents Gorton and Denton. Just going back to The example of France.

yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r Wearing a turban. It was December, for I arrive at this school and there's an enormous Christmas tree in the foyer to the school where they're talking pagans. It's a festive tree. And I've I've done reporting on the last team in France as well and and that is precisely the kind of double standard. Which fuels resentment and actually fuels some of the extremism.

that actually has become a bigger problem in France, not to say we don't have a problem because we do, but a generally speaking a bigger problem in France because radical elements, right? That d are are able to say to maybe, you know, disaffected, potentially, you know, quasi-radical young Muslim guys in France. They're able to say, Look, they don't like you, they don't want you here, they don't think you're actually free.

And the evidence of that is all around you because they say there's license to and you you know, there's no religious expressions but there is for Christianity, right? And that has been the strength of the British system and that's why I think we've gotta be pretty careful. About going down, basically institutionalizing that double standards that I think that Timothy, Nick Timothy is unw would unwittingly do with his approach. We'll be back in just a moment on Ofcom and GB News.

From a range of trusted voices and award-winning journalists. Good morning, I'm Nick Ferrari. It's time to get to your call. Find out the latest news and hear every side of the story. There is no question. My first instinct, my first priority. The fallout of the Iran War. Follow it live on LBC. Listen on our LBC app.

The newsagents. A new world investigation into GB News. It is clear they have turned G B news Mr. Speaker, we cannot let GB News propaganda turn our great country into their version of Trump's America. Either the government rules aren't fit for purpose. or Ofcom isn't properly enforcing them. Yn yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n. A really low key response from the Prime Minister there to Ed Davis, who is talking about

A major two-month-long investigation by the magazine New World into these breaches of impartiality at GB News. And what it focuses on, primarily, is not the breaches themselves. but the fact that Ofcom seems to consistently turn a blind eye to what is going on on that channel in a way it doesn't to other broadcasters. Well, The person who has run that investigation is Alan Rusbridger, former editor of The Guardian.

And he joins us now. I I want to get your response to Kiss Starmer and and him sort of throwing it back on Ofcom's plate in a second. But first Alan, just set up for us what you went in to look at and what you found. Well the the problem with GB News is that it's got a very loyal audience who are broadly reform s uh sympathetic and they never complain about it. Why would you? Uh the regulator Ofcom only acts if people complain.

So I thought it would be a good idea if we got a bunch of uh professional journalists uh from a range of uh backgrounds and and um newspapers and magazines and T V stations. to do what most people are not doing, which is to watch the the output, especially the evening programs. So we we picked fifteen hours of of of television, got twenty reviewers, each programme was reviewed by two people. uh and w j ask them just to mark it against offcom standards. Accuracy, impartiality.

A range of voices, due context, due challenge, all all the things you'll be familiar with from your BBC days. But this was specific. Ofcom regulations. It wasn't like do you like the programme? No, no, no, no. And and n nor were they asked do you do you agree with the political views? It's just are are you Are they meeting the standards? Yeah, exactly. And we asked them to mark naught to five. Five completely compliant with Ofcom. Naught not at all. Uh overall i uh it was one point five.

Uh, and then we went to Ofcom and said, Who d you know, who's complaining about these programmes? And it was like, No complaint, no complaint, no complaint, one complaint. So uh something has happened where the regulator i is just not doing its job. You've just said that. A a really interesting point, which is Ofcom responds

to complaints. Or the water companies. Right. And if there aren't complaints, then then they don't feel the need to investigate. With the BBC, it is public money. You know, we we've all been in the middle of that. We know how strongly people feel about the public broadcaster because it's their own money and when they see something, boy, do they complain if they don't like it. With Ofcom, you simply don't watch it if you don't like it. And therefore

Yeah, nobody complains and an Ofcom hasn't got any material to work with, right? Isn't that the problem for that? And don't you know there's a case for opinionated T V. Um Uh and um Keastama's rather weak response talked about freedom of expression.

Fine, but that's not the law. The law distinctly set up broadcasting to be different from Fleet Street, Fleet Street highly opinionated, and the idea was to have something that was uh uh tried to be impartial. And um Andrew Neal said it. Uh you know, Andrew Neal who set up this station, uh I spoke to him for this piece and he said it's they've allowed it to become Reform T V. Well

We know that in Hungary, Berlusconi's Italy, the you know, the leading party would have its own T V station, but I don't think that's what we ever wanted in this country. Alan, just let me ask you this about your methodology. Um were the people you had to review the programming were they of political like mind to you? I think they were right across the board. I've listed the publications they work for, The Economist, The Spectator, The Sunday Telegraph, The Times, The Guardian.

uh GQ. Um so I think they're they're a pretty mixed bunch. Because we've we've just had a statement from G B News um in the last few m moments saying um It now makes perfect sense because it is clear their so called investigation is as partisan as it alleges our audience to be, and its conclusions are as fundamentally flawed. as its approach lacks objectivity and impartiality. Well there you go. P pot calls cattle black. Um But don't you think there's anything to that?

N no,'cause I know who these reviewers are. We we didn't name them all because um some of them are still working for publications that don't welcome um them freelancing elsewhere. Um, they're all uh top notch journalists and I've read all their reports. They've they've they've they've given time stamps, examples. They an anybody can go back and check. what their opinion is. Uh and th th I I thought it was a first time. Give us the example then.

They thought that the episode they were watching or the programme they were watching would have come out with one point five percent out of five. Well there's a there's a one point five out of five Goodwin, a reform candidate. Um, so four days before he declared himself as the candidate in Gorton and Denton and and he ends this programme by saying, Oh look, there's this by election coming up, I think Labour are rubbish, I think r reform might w win Four four days later he's the candidate.

So this is a very interesting example of how the the station works. So the four subjects under uh it that he tackled that day were all to do with immigration. This is a sort of follow on from w from your discussion uh about Nick Timothy. So they were um i is Europe being overwhelmed by Muslims? Are too many Muslims coming here on boat?

uh what do we do about the Muslims in refugee camps and um and look look what the Muslims are up to in so the th in the in the Netherlands. So the choice of subjects immediately says these are all reform subjects. Uh and he then will have four to one guests uh uh of people four agreeing with him and one not. He will be very um abrasive and aggressive in interrupting the one person who doesn't agree with him.

He ran a poll about p who was who was agreeing with him and who wasn't. Ninety seven percent in the poll agreed with him and three percent. Um Uh and they would have a sort of token lefty They have one item on the Chagos Islands, uh and the token lefty who works in PR, said I'm afraid I don't understand that issue.

So th th th the bias throughout this programme is absolutely I mean you couldn't keep a straight face uh unless you're a GP news spokesman and actually defend that as being impartial. So why do you think offcom allows this to happen. It's not just about complaints. Ofcom sets rules

on the standards that broadcast broadcasters have to upkeep. And it's not just about the BBC as Emily was saying, which of course is publicly funded, it's about Sky, it's about IT V, both of whom are channels that take this stuff really seriously. Well, it y when you listen to Ofcom people speaking, they now talk about freedom of expression more than um i impartiality. And I think something has happened in the mindset.

There's a I I looked at um you probably remember this, that the Ofcom looked at the Today programme, twenty seventeen, who had Nigel Lawson on, talking d decrying climate change. Twelve page report from Ofcom saying this is disgraceful, you didn't challenge him. I mean really m second by second analysis of the programme.

And now, nine years later, they're just waving this stuff through. So something has definitely happened. Uh I asked to speak to Ofcom th having agreed to meet me, they s then they then said they wouldn't. Uh Do you think Ofcom's not fit for purpose? in this realm, absolutely not. And I asked I asked Andrew Neal this question because Andrew Neal, you know, left the station when he when it was apparent which way it was going. And he just said he he thought they were just not up to it.

Do you think they're scared of G B News? I mean is it a money thing or is it a fact that they don't think it's it's kind of public so they don't they don't really think Well G B News is very aggressive and and tends to sort of challenge or j judicially review and that costs them a lot of money. I think the problem is that it's gone on so long now it's difficult now to see how they would step in. I mean there is a new chairman ar arriving at G B News soon, uh at at G P News at Ofcom.

uh you muddle the two up sometimes. Uh Michael Grade is is stepping down, um and it remains to be seen whether a new chairman will come in and say, Come on, we've got to

to tighten us up because as the the Davy question said, it can't be right for one political party to effectively have their own channel. So let me just read you what I've come have said um in a statement our rules around due impartiality and accuracy in news ensure that audiences aren't misled and are offered a range of alternative views and perspectives. Importantly, due impartiality Doesn't mean strictly impartial or

or neutral, nor is it a mathematical construct where equal airtime must be given to each opposing view. However how broadcasters achieve due impartiality is not dictated by the regulator. It's an editorial decision for them And Ofcom does not impose a single remote. approach. I d I don't even understand what that means, do you? Well it means that you can do what you like, I think. So if you asked Ofcom if they thought G B News was impartial, they would have to say yes.

I assume so, because they're not doing anything about it. There was a complaint recently about, there's a presenter called Bev Turner who interviewed Donald Trump in November. the most fawning interview. Um there's a former uh Ofcom uh regulator, of course, Chris Bennett Vala, who set the standards when he was there, and he said it was just the most uh egregious example he had ever seen. uh of a of a uh uh uh an interviewer sitting there basically agreeing and urging the president on.

And so the president says things like, um, climate change is a hoax. The Chinese make wind farms but they there are no wind farms in China. I mean things that are you know uh easily disprovable. Uh, her response to that was to say, Oh, it's wonderful that you drop all these truth bombs. Um, it gives people such joy.

G thirty two people complained about that to Ofcom, and their response was Well later in the middle of the night they had ge middle of the night UK time they had guests who did challenge that, so that's fine. Um I mean it i it is an extraordinary approach. So just bring in Keir Starmer at this point, because he's asked directly by Ed Davy, what are you gonna do about Ofcom?

And Keir Sam seems to say, Well that's for Ofcom Yeah, it's like haven't I got enough problems? And you want me to deal with Ofcom as well? Well it I think it's a problem about regulation. When I was talking to Andrew Neal He said I uh he said, I think actually Britain is bad at regulation. Um th this devastating Channel Four series on off off water um it feels to me as a a parallel. You know, we we want clean water.

We want clean information in this country and the regulators are letting us down. And it's I can see why Starmer's in some difficulty because Boris Johnson had a completely different approach, you may remember. When he got in there, he tried to book Paul Daker. He obviously thought, aha, the way to noble this is to put in somebody who thinks like me.

Uh and when that failed there was this plot that Nadine Dorris described where uh some um black arts people in number ten tried to put in a a Tory peer to to run it and they ended up with Michael Grade after a two year hiatus. Um, but I think it's a challenge if you're Keirstammer, because z something has gone wrong and I I i I I would have thought he would he should be getting Lisa Nandi, the culture secretary, or the Common Select Committee.

Uh to ask some basic questions. I mean just watch the stuff w with a clipboard and you'll see that this is driving a coach and horses through what the regulations are. Alan Ratzbridger. Thank you so much. Not at all.

The news agents. And just before we go, we thought we'd hear from erstwhile members of the Donald Trump fan club. Being a Trump supporter or being part of MAGA does not mean you have to accept. Another Middle East war without questions. This is Israel's war. This is not the United States' war. This war is not being waged on behalf of American national security objectives to make the United States safer or richer. This war's not actually even about weapons mass destruction. Nukes.

Kemba this war is waged. purely because Israel wanted it to be waged. This is embarrassing. We are the United States of America. Why are we allowing a foreign country to occupy our n our government. And now we see we I I was removed from a religious liberty commission because I dared to speak out against Israel. It's no longer a conspiracy, Pierce. What Israel wants, Israel gets. And we're witnessing that. And I'm telling you right now, MAGA is dead. Wow. So you will have probably recognized.

some of the voices in that compilation, including Ben Kelly, Marjorie Teller Green, uh Tucker Carlson, these are people who have been so are strongly part of the MAGA influenza base. and they are now telling Donald Trump that he is wrong to prosecute this war in Iran, that he is Israel's puppet. I mean, we can read into that what we will. and that they no longer stand alongside him.

What we're asking in the newsagents USA this week is how widespread that is and what do people close to Donald Trump make of that? We've got an interview with somebody who's been right at his side for decades. We'll see you there. Bye bye. Bye for now. This has been a Global Player original production.