Was Nigel Farage a racist schoolboy?

This is a Global Player original podcast. So last week his leader said he didn't have time, didn't have time to condemn the racist comment. yw'r cynnwys yw'r cynnwys yw'r cynnwys yw'r cynnwys yw'r cynnwys yw'r cynnwys yw'r cynnwys yw'r cynnwys yw'r cynnwys yw'r cynnwys For his explanation for the stories in today's papers. That is Keir Starmer calling on the Reform UK leader, Nigel Farage.

To explain accusations made by fellow students that he displayed racist behaviour when he was at school as a teenager. This is a story that the Guardian has been carrying in the last few days, and Keir Starmer is asking Farage to explain what happened. Farage has denied all those allegations. More than a dozen former classmates claim that Farage made repeated remarks as a schoolboy, such as Hitler was right and gassed them, directing them at Jewish school.

pupils. What should we make of this story? Does it prove anything about Farage now? And does it matter what he said then if he said it at all? Welcome to the news agents. The news agents. It's Emily. It's Lewis. And on today's episode, we're going to try and get to the bottom of Three things. Namely, what did Farage say at school in Dulledge when he was a late teenager? What does he admit to saying? What does he deny having said?

And does it make any difference to how people see the reform leader now? If he was racist, if he was anti Semitic then, is he still now? And does the electorate Mind if he is.

Yeah, so this as we were saying is fresh reports in The Guardian, which in fairness, as we're gonna discuss, actually build on uh reports and allegations that have been around for over a a decade now. But in the last few days The Guardian have put together a special report.

Which suggests and claim that while Farage was at the public school, fee paying school, Dulwich College, in South East London, they have got more than a dozen former classmates Who have claimed that Farage, as I say, has made repeated remarks such as Hitler was right, gassed them, directed those comments at Jewish pupils, other minority students, often sang a school group song including Sirs like we'll gas all of the. the years. Farage has strongly denied the allegations.

He's called them entirely without foundation and questioned the relevance and indeed the memories of incidents from very, very long ago. But In the wake of that, it hasn't stopped. Number ten, drawing sharp political criticism of the comments, with a Prime Minister spokesperson, no less, saying that those claims are disturbing and urging Farage to address them public. And when I came across those comments in The Guardian Piece this week, it triggered a sort of muscle memory for me because

I remembered hearing them before and the reason I'd heard them before is because frankly a lot of them come from the work of Michael Crick, an old colleague of mine at Newsnight. He's done the biography of Nigel Farage in a book called One Party After Another and

He made a piece for Channel Four, which, as Lewis said, is over a decade old. It was made in twenty thirteen, where he went to Dulledge College. He talked to teachers, he talked to pupils at the time. He had evidence of letters sent at that time. People who

remembered and had taught and had been at school with Nigel Farage and so we thought We should ask Michael Crick to talk to us about his original reporting and also to reflect on the difference in Farage's own attitude to the allegations that were made at the time and how he's responded right now.

Well joining us now is the broadcaster and writer Michael Crick. We used to work together many moons ago at Newsnight and then uh you left us for Channel 4 and The reason we want to talk to you today, Michael, is because so much of the story that we've been talking about today is familiar from your own work.

Both in the book he wrote about Farage and in the original broadcast, I think took us back to 2013-14 for Channel Four, where you described In a lot of detail the scenes at Dulledge College and the memories of teachers, the deputy headmaster, At Dalwich College when Farage was there. That's right. Uh it was back in twenty thirteen and I love looking in people's distant pasts'cause you get sort of clues as to their character now.

And uh it didn't take many calls to find people who remembered Farage as anti Semitic. And then I had a moment of luck because a guy called Bob Joke who was an English teacher at Dulwich College, had kept this letter from one of the other English teachers, a a woman called Chloe Deakin.

to the high the high master, the head master called the master at Dulwich College, about how uh it was Farage was utterly unsuitable to be a prefect. And he did get made a prefect. He did. And um and I rushed down to Torquay it was where Bob Jope lived. And he got the letter out and we filmed it and everything. And it was uh it was a m it went on for about five pages about how Farage was a sort of neo Nazi and a and a fascist and all of that.

And then I managed to get the other side of the argument, the debut head explained, well, you know, Farage was you know, we thought a lot of it was just being provocative and so on. And then I put the film together and I doorstepped Farage, I think on the day of transmission.

And he was um he actually came out with a pretty e equivocal response. Were we about to hear it? You like to see the letter? I've seen it before. Have you? Well not for thirty years. Ah yes, of course I said some ridiculous things at that point. Racist things. Um not necessarily racist things, but things. Not necessarily racist. Well, it depends how you define it. You see, I mean you've got to remember that ever since 1968, up until the last couple of years.

We've not been able in this country intelligently to discuss immigration, to discuss integration. It's all been a buried subject and that's happened through academia, it's happened through politics and the media. But I mean that letter it g for instance it cites an egg an example of you

uh uh taunting someone in class and having to be excluded by implication on on racial grounds. I was excluded from class dozens of times over the years for all sorts of reasons. No, no, no, no. I I I don't accept that. You know, I mean it's not just that fellow pupils remember. remember you making racist comments. So you made racist comments to wind people up? All through the nineteen seventies. Did you find that a at the time, did you find that a very satisfactory explanation, Michael?

No, and it wasn't a very good interview by me. I th I should have I should have been a b lot harder on him towards the end of that. It's a softer response than A more equivocal response than the one that he's given this week. Yes. Uh where he adamantly says he was never racist and never said anything racist or anti Semitic. Um and that this is all you know, and that there's a statement put out by the p the p the Reform UK.

And you know, all about how there's no corroboration and so on. Whereas I think Farage really having said that, and that has been repeated in uh newspapers and in my books He should have gone along the same lines, frankly, now. I mean personally, I mean I I think I might if I was Faraj, I might have actually said, Look, I did say some awful things at school do terrible things as a schoolboy and I deeply apologise if I

offended people and I'm sorry about that, but that's not what I am today. I thought the public would probably accept that. Yeah, yeah. I'm presumably I mean it is interesting. I mean you're what you just said is exactly what I thought. The difference in how he's responded to you then and now, I think is quite telling about his evolution as a as a politician.

Well, th there are two sides to Farage, and that was the sort of gentler side, and I think what we've seen this week is the nasty side and he will b will have felt cornered this week. And he c he might be he might be feeling crikey. This could cause

Quite a lot of damage. Even though actually what the Guardian as we've said, even though that which the Guardian ha r has reported is basically what you reported over a decade ago. I know, but I mean Farage was just he wasn't even an MP then, he was leader of a rising party that was winning by I mean he hadn't even got anybody into parliament at that stage.

the stakes are far higher. And although You know, how many Jewish people are there in this country? Three or four hundred thousand. Well, he may have trouble getting many votes from them. He may get trouble have trouble getting donations from Jewish donors, but then there will be a much wider community. You think that some of the stuff that they've heard this week, and some of the taunting and some of the v you know, very vivid memories from Jewish boys at Dulwich College.

Um I mean if you if you've had that happen to you, it will have stuck in your brain for the rest of your life. I mean things that taunted me a about at school were not I'm not Jewish, so but there would be all l lots of banter at school. People say horrible things. But if you are Jewish and Farage is saying things about you being gassed and Hitler being right and so on, and singing this awful song Gassem All

That will have stuck in your brain forever. And that's why I think this evidence is so powerful and that it's foolish of f Farage. and his party to try and pretend that people's memories are at fault. So you don't believe that you didn't deny that, Michael, because he said that he didn't even know the words to the song. There is no question in your mind that he did say those things and he did repeat those lyrics and he did

Taunts. There is no doubt. And when I came to write the book, there was a doubt when I started off, because I was worried that I was not a little bit of a little bit Half the people you spoke to from Dulledge met r remembered horrible stuff like this.

But the other half said, No, I don't remember anything like that. He was a you know, he was a he was he was very political and he was uh you know on the right and uh he was provocative, but I don't remember him ever being racist or anti Semitic. And the and they also pointed out that one of his best friends at school was a black boy. And I thought, well I wanna get to I wanna get to the bottom of this. I want to be fair to Farage. And so I set out.

I put a an absurd amount of work into it along with my former wife Margaret who was helping me with the research and this was all during COVID, so it was quite difficult to do. We tracked down about sixty or seventy boys. We got the the list. ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hyn. That Farage had been horribly anti Semitic at Dullitch. Th it was much more less less clear on the question of racism against Asians and black people. And

Dullich was interesting'cause there weren't actually that many boys, uh Jewish boys out I was surprised how few there were. There there weren't that many. And in a way that must have made it even worse for them. I mean I went to a school very similar to Dulwitch in Manchester.

Manchester Grammar School, where it was about twenty percent Jewish. You would never have got away with that at my school. But at Dulwich, a lot fewer b Jewish boys. And I think actually what happened Is the some of the staff are responsible for this for not cracking down on it and not cracking down when Farage and his mates were singing you know horrible songs on the butt on the boat.

They've denied him ever being racist and anti Semitic at school. Question why some of those who had given testimony had not made the claims before. Clearly they had made the claims before to you over

a decade ago and they then say there is no primary evidence, it's one person's word against another. Well first of all there is primary evidence in the letter that was sent from uh the school teacher Chloe Deakin to the the headmaster of Dulwich College, ex complaining about the fact he'd be been made a prefect. And s and it's not one person's word against another, it's about a dozen people's word against another. And many of those are people

Who have good reason to remember vividly the taunts that Farage made because they are Jewish. And I I think that if you are yourself Jewish, you will remember that much more vividly than if you're not. And we'll be back with Michael in just a minute. Here in Edinburgh. American Week is next. Reporting from the heart. or the new LBC app. Leading Britain's conversation.

The news agents. The Telegraph has said in their write-up to this, they've said that what this is basically doing is holding a child. to not only adult standards but the standards of of today and that's fundamentally unfair. What what do you make of that argument, Michael? Well I think there's something in that it depends what age we're talking about. And it seems to me that this went on from a period of of ab from about thirteen, age thirteen

to in certainly into the sixth form when Farage would have been what, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen. Because you don't get made a prefect until you in your last year's And so I would accept that if somebody said something horrible like that at thirteen It's less serious than if they ca if they carried on saying it. Uh sixty after all, we're about to give the vote in this country to people of sixteen and seventeen.

Um I think that's a foolish idea, but nonetheless that is to happen. And I do think you y he ha that he is certainly much more responsible for what he said when he was sixteen and seventeen and eighteen than he was when he was Uh perhaps thirteen. So I don't fully hold the uh the telegraph argument. I think one of the fascinating things about Farage at Dulwich College I mean I've written quite a few biographies and I've done a lot of television profiles.

And I don't think I know of a case where The ingredients of the later man or woman are in their school days. Nearly you know, so much of the Farrars we see today is the Farrars we saw at Dullish College. Now I'm not saying that Farage is anti-Semitic or racist today. I think that's a complicated discussion to have. But if you look at other aspects of his character, The boy who loves being the centre of attention, who loves being provocative.

who loves being divisive, who dresses. He was a political creature though. You're not saying that he's racist or anti Semitic today, which is a discussion we should have. Well let's have that th because in a way that is the relevance, isn't it? That the question we're asking is whether the seeds of a racist or an anti Semite were sewn at Dulwage College, which remain today. Now there are two possibilities that he wasn't then and he isn't now, or that he was then

And he still is now, or that he was then, but somehow he isn't now. Well I think it's even more complicated than that. But I agree. The seeds of his politics were were at Dulich, and he you know, he was particularly impressed by two visiting speakers, Enoch Powell and Keith Joseph. And actually I've been reflecting over the last few days. It would be interesting to know how did Farage learn that song, Gasamol? Where who did he learn it from? Was it other boys at Dulwich College?

Or was it someone outside? Or was it somewhere somewhere in his family background? And that is a the next stage I suppose for somebody to research. Now, in terms of the Farage today, I don't think you can say in any way whatsoever that he's anti Semitic today. He is a huge supporter of Israel. There's no evidence for it that I've seen any and I spoke to lots of people who fell out with Farage, hated him.

But were close to him in UKIP. And so it would have been their opportunity for them to say, and by the way, he was a terrible racist, I remember him saying this. But none of them did. And indeed, in most cases, I specifically asked them whether they remembered anything about Faraday. being racist and they would say he was a terrible bully or he was a terrible this or that and he um a terri terribly authoritarian or he you know he was really nasty but none of his other critics from his adult life

would say that he was a racist. The other thing I would say is that rather like Enoch Powell, I don't think Enoch Powell was a racist personally, although I not know a lot of people do, but I would say that both Enoch Powell and Nigel Farage Have been guilty of pandering to people who are racist. In other words, they don't mind them voting for their party and they maybe take Well yeah morally morally yeah morally you could yeah I I would argue that

In some ways actually pandering to racists is worse is worse than being a racist. What I'm really saying is that pandering also means encouraging, right, doesn't it? I mean if your language encourages legitimizing and and opening a door for people to think that's fine. Yeah, I think that is um a reasonably good getting close to the truth. I'd I sort of like to go away and t look at the words again and think about it. And I think that that is a problem.

You know, on the other hand, Farage has always been I mean, for instance, you know, him and Tommy Robinson. I mean Tommy Robinson was one of the reasons one of his successors, many successors as UKIP leader. uh Gerard Batten, uh brought Tommy Robinson in as an advisor, and that was the final straw for Farage, and he left UKIP and then went off and and founded

Because of the racism or because of the competitiveness. Well, uh he said because of the racism. And I think that is true. I I think that in terms of You know, Farage having sort of well, certainly he never says anything racist, but he does at times pander to racism through some of the things he says.

And so it's a tricky area. It's a tricky area. But I mean, you know, he's also got Black friends, um like he did at school, you know, Derek Chesora, for instance, the boxer, is very close to Farage and

And so on. So it's not a good thing. Farage has always argued, hasn't he, Michael? He's actually argued. I mean and listeners and and viewers can make of this what they will. He says that he has done more To defeat the far right than any other politician in the country because he says that what he did in destroying or helping he claims to have helped destroy the the BMP, to have driven this sort of extremism from the right of politics and made what is

Yeah, the right of politics more acceptable and softer than it otherwise would have been. No, no. But I think the argument would be the argument is and and I think there's some truth in this, that that in that there was a period in the late naughty In the early years of Farage's leadership of UKIP where the BNP, amazingly, were getting twice as many votes

as UKIP in pla even in places like Henley on Temple. And they did well in the European elections of two thousand and nine. In the European elections of twenty oh nine, what happened there? It was partly Parash's leadership, but it was also partly the accident of the MP's expenses affair. Suddenly nobody wanted to vote for the Westminster parties, Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat. Who was the next best next option, they thought and they went they all voted for UKIP.

ironically,'cause of UKIP were the biggest expensive fiddlers of all in the European Parliament. Um and suddenly uh Farage then got lot more seats than uh the BNP did. There was an internal uh civil war within the BNP and suddenly UKIP emerged and the BNP, partly or probably maybe even primarily because of

its own internal problems and um Nick Griffin's uh uh disastrous appearance on Question Time and so on went into decline. But of course since then the UKIP uh Farage's various parties, UKIP and then Brexit and now reform. have been the most r serious party to the right of the Conservatives. And there's no there's there's no prospect of a party

to the right of them really emerging. Whereas in Europe parts of Europe, I think you can say there are right wing parties that are to the right of uh where uh reform are now. And uh

Farage has acted it because of his extraordinary skills as a p politician, has acted as a uh a barrier really to preventing uh our politics going even more to the right. I guess what I'd say though, Michael, is if I mean you call him a barrier, if what he's doing or what he would like to do if he ever led the country, is enact policies which are essentially mass deportation policies of the kind that we've seen in America now, and some in his party have suggested that they would like to see that.

That doesn't seem to me to be a barrier. That seems to me to be a an encircling of the bigger. It's all terribly complicated, isn't it, now that we have you know the two mainstream parties are frankly uh now Pursuing policies that are pretty close to what Farage uh and his parties were were w were advocating uh some years ago. So the the whole of politics is shifting uh so rapidly.

Uh, as Tommy Robinson told us this week, the over decimated? Well the truth is that Farage has been way more instrumental in that than Tommy Robinson has even now even though

L Robinson is being legitimized perhaps to a disturbing extent. Farage has been the sort of driving factor behind that. But I suppose the question Michael I want to sort of get is that to sort of go back almost to where we started when she's If someone's listening to this and basically just thinking, this is all very interesting, and yes, it clearly shows that as we've known for a long time that you know Farage has been, you know, on the right, on the radical right of British politics.

You know, since an early age, he was at Mara Enoch Powell, you know, long after he made the Rivers of Blood speech in sixty eight, etcetera, etc. But ultimately School boys, school days. Does it tell us anything about the modern man? I mean is he is he basically hiding something from us?

Or is it actually of relatively little interest and most people do embarrassing things when they're Well, it his school days do tell us a lot about the the modern man, but I think actually on the race and anti Semitism point It is not that healthy. And it shows that Farage was anti immigration in those days. It shows that he was a nationalist. It shows he was on the right.

it shows he was a political creature, uh, you know, liked dressing smartly. So many features of his character you can trace back to Dulwich College. But I think that after you know, once he became an adult, from his late twenties onward,

I think there is certainly overt race racism you cannot really find. But you've got this whole troubling area which I think he does pander to racist. For instance, it would be interesting to know, and I'm not aware of any occasions What what does Farage say with? to somebody in the street who comes out with a racist view.

Does he say no no no, I'm sorry, I I can't go along with that. But it may be I'm being unfair to him there and that I've never heard this happen and uh and then nobody else has recorded or whatever. But it that is an interesting area uh to explore. Can I just follow up? From Lewis's question with with something that brings us to today. As you said at the beginning

the change in his own response is very noticeable now. And yet when you accosted him or f you know, found him on on the street in twenty thirteen, that was a decade ago. That didn't do him any political harm. So I'm I mean it did I mean Channel four news, you know, never had a huge audience. I mean we was we were always competing with you when we I mean I worked for both, but they were b always but competing it was always Minority Pursuit. Yeah, minority.

And I'm not sure that many people followed it up. Uh, I guess okay, my question's slightly different though, which is if he was sort of fine to engage with it, the premise you in twenty thirteen, and he's slamming the door shut on these accusations now. Are there a lot of people in the country, I guess I'm asking, who simply don't really care? If he is racist, or if he is a very good thing.

Well I'm I'm no I think it's more than that. You know, people not vote for him if if they thought he was racist. I I'm not sure that's true. Well th there would be some people who who wouldn't vote for him and and and and the the I think it would cause him some problems but

I think you're not going to be able to do that. But walks like a duck, talks like a duck. In which case that's my question. Why does he have to sort of distance himself from this report when actually a lot of people would say, Oh no, we understood what he was saying, he was just talking about migration or he was just talking com common sense or he was just saying it like it is.

I mean I think y you've you've probably got the two different sides to f to f I think actually way back in twenty thirteen when I door stepped him in the street. If I remember rightly He sort of knew we were com we were going to be there and he had a bit of time. He's got a smile on his face. Yeah. And he'd thought through I've got to relax here. I mustn't lose my temper or anything. And maybe the response this week was in the

You know, in a Ming Vaz situation. I mean they are the holders of the Ming Vars right now, but they know they've got uh they've got you know, they've got three years perhaps before the next election more than three years, and Uh they cannot afford to put a foot wrong. And maybe that is what caused the much more adamant response that I've never said anything like this and it's all all, you know, fabricated by our uh enemies.

But the contrast the contrast is is very different. Yeah and also yeah, I mean Trump isn't a is a you know an influence on the way he behaves and that's a a fascinating uh conversation, perhaps perhaps for another day. But as I say, I would have uh I think I would have A apologised actually, but that would be a risk too. Maybe that is only the kind of risk he could have taken twelve years ago. It's very nineteen nineties, that sort of approach.

No, because and I think the I think Lewis has said something about this, but I I'm maybe maybe not. I think the result is the the Cafilli by election. two or three weeks ago was fascinating because what happened there was all the other parties ganged up on reform and you know can clearly conservatives and certainly Labour people were willing to vote for Plyde in a way that they never would have done in the past, simply to stop

uh Farage. And actually the same thing happened in clearly happened in the Runcorn by election where we were all expecting a a you know, a decent majority and they only won by six in the end. And that of course is how Farage was

on a constituency level, blocked from becoming an MP back in twenty fifteen when he w he was standing in in South Thanett. And of course there's rumors swirling round now that, you know, Labour might be temp to bring in the alternative vote, voting system before the end of this Parliament. And that would then sort of institutionalise tactical voting. I think tactical voting we we keep going on about it and and how

It seems to get bigger with every election. I think it's gonna be huge at the next election. I think I and and and this is I think part of the precisely the reason why he's responded with this fury, right? Because they they're trying to break through that that threshold they seem reasonably stuck at, which is high, but

You know, they would like it to be high. Twenty six, twenty seven, twenty eight. They want to get to thirty to to thirty five. And and this is exactly the sort of thing that could prevent them from doing that. I just th thought finally, Michael. You spent a lot of time with Ferrar. I've spent quite a lot of time with him, I don't think quite as much as you, but you know, you know him well and you've written a a biography of him.

I know you say you don't think he would become Prime Minister, but let's just imagine for a moment that he did become Prime Minister in whatever form, minority government or whatever. How would you feel about that, knowing him as you do? I wouldn't be very comfortable about it. I think there would be all sorts of terrible policies. I mean I'm actually quite right wing on i immigration policy.

But on other stuff like global warming, uh foreign aid I think would be uh appalling from my point of view. But I would also think it would be appalling. It would be utterly chaotic. Utterly chaotic. I mean Farraj has never really run anything. and he uh he falls out with everybody. I mean it would be like Trump won.

You know, we're every every political system. In a parliamentary system. Warage would love is a presidential system, right? Exactly. And he's actually said that he he he would have to rejig his government so lots of ministers weren't in weren't members of parliament. Presumably they'd have to be in the Lords, which would that would cause a problem. big hoo ha as it is, but we've seen in in these new councils which are now controlled by reform, the number of people.

uh aid that they finding it's much more difficult to do what they thought what they intended to do, uh than they thought it would be. And indeed we've seen a huge turnover in reform councillors, people resigning or defecting. And of course that's been the pattern with Farage's parties all along the line, way back to twenty five years ago when they started getting people into the European Parliament. Th a lot of them end up defecting, resigning, going to jail

And that the same would happen here. Uh well you've got the latest case with Nathan Gill who I think is due to be sentenced. tomorrow uh for um accepting bribes from uh Russians pro pro Russians. So it'll be utter chaos and I think uh I think actually in his mind Farage loves the idea of being elected Prime Minister and living in number ten. But I think he actually is quietly terrified about what then happens, what you do next.

You know, and and and and and um they are doing a lot of work to sort of try and work policy out,'cause policy's never been s something something that Farage has been that interested in. Indeed, there were occasions been occasions in the past where he's admitted not to reading His own party's manifesto.

uh or knowing what was in it. And um but he's he he's doing a lot more work on that. And of course they've got think tanks going and they do these weekly press conferences now where they do a lot of policy stuff in in between the questions. um from journalists about other issues. So I would be worried. And uh I thought it the other thing is it would be a very authoritarian government. At heart he is a Stalinist.

Um and uh didn't see that one go. Does he does he deny that? Can we check that team? Um Michael Croke. And an admirer of both Trump and Putin. Great to have you on. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming in.

The news agents. One of the questions that you kept coming back to, Lewis, was this idea of does childhood somehow insulate you from criticism of children? Or being or a young person, just. A young person, yeah. We went back through the sort of other, you know, political Faux are or you know racist slur or misjudgments, whatever you want. The interesting thing is some of them

actually weren't childhood ones at all. Like I mean I was I was trying to remember when Harry wore the Nazi uniform'cause you know, if you were the telegraph you might go, Oh well, you know, Farage might have been singing songs, but Harry wore a Nazi uniform. He was twenty when he did that. I don't think anyone's alleging that how I mean, you know, aside from the fact his his wife, you know, is black and his children are mixed.

Yeah, I think it's not a good thing. I don't think he's a Nazi, I don't think he's racist. And then you've got the whole the Trudeau. one which is really odd. Do you remember Justin Tudo? Yeah, blackface. Not not just once but like many times. I think into his late twenties actually. Like a sort of as a graduate student. So much And did that stop him getting elected?

No it didn't. I mean it was very uh it was it was very embarrassing for him and I think, you know, politically damaging to to some extent for him. Of course he apologized profusely. And I think this is the um I think for me this is the sort of interesting thing about this story and and I think that actually I think the more problematic end of it. Look, I think generally speaking Stuff that people do, especially in their school days, and even into their early sort of adolescence.

I think generally speaking, you know, politicians are allowed to do stupid things just like everybody else is allowed to do stupid things, even if actually potentially even really quite grossly offensive things. It's worth talking about, it's worth pointing it out, it's worth asking those people about it, but I don't think it's some sort of inherent kind of prohibition from office. I think that

What's interesting about this episode is, as we've been saying, how Farage has reacted to it.'Cause in twenty thirteen he sort of takes it on the chin, he provides another explanation, which is the one I've just basically said, which is sort of like look

Did I do some stupid things that were very provocative? Yes. Do I accept it's racist? Well it depends how you define it. And I think actually that is for a lot of people, that will chime with a lot of people actually. I think the problem here Actually he did deny

singing a song that was all about gassing Jews because he said, How could I possibly have done that? I didn't even know that. Right. I mean so so yeah, there there was also a kind of laughing off of stuff which Michael Quicks just told us He doesn't believe to be true. But nonetheless I think that the reaction to now basically suggests all of this Is a smear.

even though in the past he's addressed these allegations in a very different way, which would indicate perhaps that it is not a smear, I think is is quite troubling because I just think that there are ways that he could address this in a common sense, matter of fact way that You know, actually would resonate with quite a lot of people and most people would accept. To Michael's point, which is that we're now in Mingva's territory. That suggests very, very boring politics.

For the next three years if that's true. And why I say that is because the sort of USP of reform has always been, oh, we say it like it is. We just say what normal people are thinking. You know, it might sound racist or it might not. You know, it might be about immigration or it might not. I mean Farage is always known with a sort of brilliance.

how to walk the line between something that can sound totally dog whistle to the people who want to hear the dog whistle and just stays on the right side of legal to the ones who might be looking for trouble. If he's now in a place where he's slapping everything down, and I possibly mean slapp double P slapping everything down, then it suggests that they are going to be possibly more timid in their language in the coming months and years. And certainly in the way that they're sort of

dealing with the electorate because they think that the prize is within sight and they don't want to they don't want it all to come crashing to the ground. And I wonder if that fundamentally changes the sort of character or the nature of the party itself. Perhaps and I mean uh it's worth saying as well, I mean, um you know, Michael said there I think he said in

I mean I think that some people would contest that. I mean he certainly said things he's certainly been accused in as an adult, as a political player many times of Racism by his political opponents, or at least indulging in racist

uh rhetoric. I mean one can think of uh you know, he's spoken before about the idea of fifth columnists in Britain. He's talked about Muslim men or Muslims having sort of split loyalties, he's talked about sort of being worried about if a group of Romanian men moved next door, what might happen and again the whole the whole Brexit And where he was standing at breaking point, which was, you know, the idea of flooding. Now he would say obviously this is just about immigration.

But you choose your images when you talk about immigration and he chose his Exactly. So one answer to why there may be a difference between, say, Trudeau or or Prince Harry and Farage is of course that Trudeau m and Prince Harry have not been accused in later life.

as adults and political players, insofar as someone like Harry is, of engaging in, you know, racist rhetoric or whatever it is, whereas Farage has been. Now whether you think that's fair or not, obviously you can make your own judgment. But it does, I think nothing el if nothing else, show the extent to which

You know, he has changed as a as a political player because for precisely the reason that you say, Emily, you know, in twenty thirteen it was all a bit of a sort of oddity. It was something almost you know, he almost had a sort of smile on his face. Now you know, he was an esoteric

Still pretty fringe figure at that time, as Michael was saying. Now he is leading in the polls, and if the polls were to be realised, you know, could be next could be potentially be the next Prime Minister. So if he doesn't like

this sort of scrutiny, well, as we get closer, inching closer to the next election, it's only gonna become more intense. You say that, but obviously at the moment it's the Guardian reporting it and no one else is really picking it up. There is an asymmetry as we so often discuss. in the sort of right wing lean of most of our papers.

And the last thing I'd say actually, Lewis, is that there is one phrase that really sticks in the crawl for me and that's this idea of using language that is anti Semitic or racist as a wind up. as if that's fine, you know, I was just winding you up. Every woman knows and I'm sure every different group of has got their own experience of this, but every woman knows that like a sexist joke

is still more sexist than it is a joke. So when you have to sit and listen to a sexist joke, it's not really a joke. It's just a way of saying, Oh, stop getting the knickers in a twist, didn't you understand? And I heard something when he was sort of saying, Oh yeah, I wound up the boys at school. I don't know what wound up means, but if you're winding up Jews because they're Jews

Or if you're winding up the black kids at school because they're black kids, that's not a wind up. That is essentially the same as being racist or being anti Semitic. I just I find the whole idea of like, can't you get a joke, didn't you understand the humour, just A little bit ridiculous. Well, again, worth saying again that uh as of today, Nigel Farage uh continues to deny.

The Guardians reporting. We will be back tomorrow and we'll see you then. Bye-bye. Bye for now. This has been a Global Player original production.